Great race with two RARE cars! I'm trying to keep up my posting schedule, but with the coronavirus outbreak I'm working non-stop at my, "real job." Anyway, I might throw together an extra video for April Fools Day.... we'll see.
gearmeister what year I remember my 1970.5 Pontiac formula parts car was that avocado green I got the ram air 3 heads manifolds and turbo 400 transmission it made my transam super duper I will always remember that car 👍🏻tough as nails💀
The Ram Air 2 was the start of a great dynasty for Pontiac that ended with the 455 Super Duty in 1974. The round port heads flowed better than the standard heads but were still streetable. I would argue that the L78 rectangular port heads were overkill in a stock bodied car. John Lingenfelter tested rectangular port heads vs oval port heads and found the oval ports out performed the rectangular port heads up to about 700 horsepower. Those are some big breathing heads!! Either way both cars are awesome examples of 1960's technology at it's finest.
I regularly street raced a 68 Chevelle SS back in the day. The 396 ran exceptional, and I had very few losses. However, I will never forget the night I lost to a 69 400 Firebird. Not sure which 400 he had, but it sure caught me off guard. Seemed through the 70s there were a plethora of these 400 birds lying around for relatively cheap. Everyone wanted the camaros instead.
Badger Bait well I sure miss them camaro’s and firebirds of the day 400 cubic and up were the norm . I loved all the variations back in the day. 🍻 As we can talk about them days of street racing it was ok back then not like now cops are soulless
@@ralphsmallblock4367, They weren't too cooperative back then, either! I had so much fun in the early days they yanked my license for six months right after high school! Can't imagine what they'd do to me now!
Ahh, Pontiac finally wins! The Firebird's were some of the best looking cars from 67-69. In black, that one looks sharp! Hard to believe that block started life as a 287, and ran through all iterations from 326-455 with the exception of crank journal size. RAM Air stuff is about as fascinating as the Super Duty engines. Another great vid!
@@sergiojacquez2277 Yes get some more compression in that SD-455 and it really hauls - a 74 SD-455 T/A Ran a 12.46 @ 109 MPH with 9.7 to 1 Compression street tires etc.
The Bird has a Qjet on an iron intake, hydraulic cam, that particular one has gone mid 12s before, and people think Pontiacs are slow. The D port 400 isn't far behind with only a 214/225@.050 cam with a 115 LSA. The D port RA III only has a 224/236@.050 on a 115. RA IV was 231/240 115, the RA II used the same cam but with 1.5 ratio rockers. The L78 needed dome pistons, aluminum intake, Holley carb, and a 242/242 114 solid cam to get where the Pontiac is with flat tops. 200lbs is roughly .2 in the 1/4. That means Pontiac did a lot more with less, but the chevy is somehow the best in people's minds. Want to know what happens when you put a 242@.050 cam in an 11:1 Pontiac 400? The gaptizement increases considerably, and no need for a solid lifter either. I went mid 11s with a cam the size of the RA III in a 3900lb '79 Formula and 3.42 gears shifting at 5800. The chevy guys always asked how much I was spraying... it was fun beating all of them by a fender because I lifted instead of running it all out. The 454 powered '68 Camaro didn't want to race, he knew what times the Bird was running at the track. Daily driver fun beating trailered 'race' cars in 1998. My junk is a little bit quicker now, still have that Formula and its around 800lbs lighter with 700hp@6500rpm... Naturally aspirated Pontiac powered of course. Gonna hurt chevy fee fees around here this summer.. if we aren't all dead.
The Pontiac engines were amazing. The more I learn about them, the more I can't believe what they did with so little. I have a 67 Bird in my garage waiting on an engine rebuild. The builder loves working on the Pontiac Blocks, so much room to build and be creative. Thanks for posting all the details, saved me from looking it all up.
@@TheDatadrew I've been building Pontiac engines and racing them since the 80s. That means I have a bunch of them sitting around either in cars, ready to go in, or waiting to get built. You can do some amazing things with mostly stock parts, a set of headers, mild cam, stock stall and highway gears. The coolest thing about them is how much interchanges, and the block is the same size from the original 287 to the 455, and up to 540ci with the aftermarket blocks, and all the stock parts (within certain year breaks) will fit. That means a 540 can look like a 326 or a 350, and we can make 5:1 compression all the way to 13:1 with a factory head, and flat top pistons. No need for deep gears, big stall converters, and long duration cams. You can go mid tens easily with an iron head and a little bit of work, pushing a 3.08-3.55 gear, depending on which crank you use and how much the car weighs. I slowed my Formula with a 4.10 gear because back then if you ran 11.99 or quicker you needed at least a 6 point roll bar. The 4.10 made it run 12.1s@110-113 very consistent, with a best of 11.71@115 vs 11.42@120 with the 3.42 gear. Just a very mild easy going 455 that got 13mpg with the 4.10 gears and an 850 Holley double pumper. It got 17 with the 3.42 gear which isn't bad for something making 540ish hp with a Holley on it. Wallerracing.com is a good source of info. If you have a 400 block, stroking it to a 461 costs about the same as rebuilding a 400 with forged rods and pistons. Summit, KRE, and Butler all have balanced crank kits for around $1500 that turn a 400 into a 461 with a .030 over bore. Pretty much any D port with 2.11" intake valves and screw in studs (all the 4 barrel heads) will work for you, the main difference in them is compression. Pontiac used flat tops in everything but the 428 that had a slight dish, they changed compression with chamber size of the head. If you have a 350 then its easy, some 72cc 400 heads, 12,13,48,62,670 castings and a cam about the size of the Summit 2802, which is real close to the stock 744 RA III cam. The 2801 will work good too, its like the 068 (214/224) cam that came in all the D port 4 barrel cars without Ram Air. Chuck a 1900-2200 stall in it(if auto), stock intake with a Qjet or a Performer and a Holley, headers, and recurve the advance so its all in by 3000rpm... and I'd recommend running it on E85, because it makes more power, burns vastly cleaner, runs cooler and will never ever ping/spark knock.. plus its cheap, like 87 octane cheap. I run E85 in all my old stuff, most of the time it only takes a carb swap, unless you have a bunch of varnish in the tank from race gas or no ethanol pump gas. It will clean all that crud out and clog the carb, pump, filter, etc.
@@SweatyFatGuy That's one of the funny things I see from other brand enthusiasts is not understanding that a 326 looks just like a 400. I try to pick up spare blocks from anywhere up to 72 when I can find them. I have done a lot of research on the build process, but never actually tackled one. I've found Pontiac people are extremely helpful with questions. I just copied your comment into my book of notes on what all I still need to learn. The block in my current Bird is out of a 68, and the last rebuild (not by me) was pretty bad. Cylinder bores way out of wack due to over heating. When it came apart, it actually had a cracked piston. This is taking a bit of machine work to bring back to life. I kept all the original stuff from it, pulleys, heads, everything original so I can find a 67 block and put the car back the way it should be. It is a firebird base, so, it needs a 326. The original 2 speed tranny is long gone, it has a Turbo 400 now, but I'd like to put a manual in it. The engine being built right now, will come out and go into a G8 for fun. Thanks for taking the time to write all that up, I'll use and appreciate it in the future! C&Z has a great crowd on his channel.
@@TheDatadrew I like these engines because they're cheap to make tons of torque and use a highway gear that is already in the car. That engine that ran 11s cost me all of $2700 to build in 1996. Those heads are on my '65 GTO's 455 now, running E85. Its about 500lbs lighter than the Bird was, and hooks much better even with 255 Cooper radials under it. Makes for a seriously fun daily driver. Lots of people have no clue about these engines, they try to do what works for a 350 chevy on them, and they always go slow. Big cam, single plane intake, big stall, deep gears... it leaves so much power unused or used to quickly. Then they try to spin it to 7500 with stock rods and can't figure out why an engine with a 4.21" stroke threw a rod out the block. Even a 400 doesn't have to go over 6500, and that is with quite a bit of head work. Its the difference between 500ftlsb at 2000rpm 550 at 4000, and 500 at 6000. very flat torque curve.. vs an engine that makes the same 500hp but at 8000rpm, its only making 330ftlbs and you have to spin the snot out of it to get the power. Short gears are intended to let the engine RPM because it has no torque, with 500+ftlbs from idle to 6k, you don't need a deep gear, and it will easily pull a 2.73 and not care. One of my 8:1 compression D port 455s had a 2004R with its .62 OD and a 2.93 gear turning 28" tall tires, it would pass in 4th like most cars do when they downshift. It was also in a 4100lb 70 GTO, that ran mid to high 12s like that. Since these pure stocks are on those skinny bias tires, the deep gears like a 3.90 or 3.73 can help get them off the line, because they will spin a shorter distance. A 2.73 will smoke the tires the entire length of the track with a RA II or a 455 HO turning them. The 3.08-3.42 is going to be faster as long as you can hook it off the line. I type kinda fast, so writing these doesn't take me long, its all trapped in my noggin so I let it out when I can.
Sounded like that poncho was still peeling some rubber when he grabbed 3rd in front of the camera. Nice matchup. I would have figured the Chevy for the win but I know from personal experience the Pontiacs are no joke.
I dig this channel, cause I missed the musclecar era and you always hear that everything ran 9s stock . Now the kids (and me) can get a rough idea of what these beasts did back then
That is if you knew how to tune them to get this kind of performance. It took some coaxing to get these cars into the 12s. Most were in the 14 to 15 range in the 1/4 mile stock. Most drivers had a heavy right foot and no idea beyond checking the oil how to make their car faster. Lift the rear and jam some bigger tires under it came first. Almost backwards.
@@thegreenerthemeaner Aw yea no doubt. Read most any road test back then. About the only one I recall standing out in my mind is an ls6 Chevelle , they seemed to run low/mid 13s off the floor and that was king of the hill back then. I read the rules , and they do keep em pretty close but modern tires are probably worth a second on most of that stuff from back then.
@@MrTheHillfolk my Journeyman had a brand new '67 Cobra 427. He killed everything at the street drags. He said the '70 Chevelles weren't that quick. He talked up the mopars 440's close to him. Most guys couldn't get the 426 Hemi running correctly.
@@kevinmanning4880 yeah I heard the hemis could be fussy and you had to stay on the tune. Before my time ,a cousin of mine was dating a girl who's father was some bigwig for the cobras back in the 60s. My cuz wanted a 289 cobra but they just brought out the 427, so what's a fella to do? Ask and ye shall receive.... Receive a 289 body/engine on a 427 chassis. Worked great on these backroads of upstate NY. He's still kicking himself that he got rid of that car !
Great race! Could have gone either way! The Firebirds were somewhat overshadowed by the Camaros, but they were stormers...two of GMs rarest and finest!
Surprised that Chevelle was right on his heels, the 400 Bird's where light weights with a heavy weight punch, never underestimate a Pontiac from the 60's. No matter how big the car is.
RA II's very underated KNAFEL Pontiacs 68 1/2 RA II 400 Firebird was running 11.90's Back in the day in stock Racing - the record then was a 12.43 in that class :)
I was the owner of a '68 Firebird 400 (325 hp) with a turbo hydramatic and 3.91 super duty positraction back in the day. My 1st runs with the car were mid to high 14's. I modified the quadrajet to supply more fuel and made my own cold air system, blocked the heat risers in the intake manifold, installed crower anti pump up lifters and added hooker 4 tube headers. In addition, I modified the distributor curve and power timed the car on a clayton chassis dyno (hard to find back in the '60's) and produced 297 RWHP. I also clamped the rear multileaf springs so to act as traction bars and added rear air shocks using legal 7" wide slicks. All this was legal in E/SA and the car ran a best of 13.07@110.88 at vacavalley raceway. It never lost an E/SA class race in NorCal during the years that I ran it but I saw the handwriting on the wall when the 340 Mopars came out and retired the car. I have a crippled left leg and have to use my right leg for both gas and brake. If I had a line lock so I could have properly heated the slicks and launched the car I believe it could have broke into the 12's.
Ram Air Pontiacs all day long against the heavy chevy. My base model 68 GTO blew the doors off a bunch of chevys. The torque from the 400 with headers was over 475 lb ft. I had to half throttle on launch, even with 50s on the back.
My brother had a 69 Firebird. We took a 428 out of a 69 Grandprix and put 400 big valve closed chambered (670) heads on it with the largest Crane Fireball cam turning the valves. Car ran low 11's in street trim. It sure surprised everyone who thought Pontiac's were slow. When they ask us what motor it had we always replied a $500 junkyard motor with a quadrajet . All factory parts including cast iron intake and a factory carb. sure had guys scratching there head. I know a lot of people post stuff that is an exaggeration or just pure fantasy but the motor was not just as simple as it sounds. The heads were hand ported, the intake was reworked and gasket matched, the distributor was dialed in for optimum timing curve, the carb had the Cliff Ruggles treatment. Larger fuel lines and opened up fuel vent on tank were necessary and it had an electric fuel pump in conjunction with the mechanical pump to keep the fuel bowls full in the carb. A lot of attention was paid to fuel delivery to keep it from nosing over on the big end. And for those who know motors it required a little more than pump gas with those closed chambered heads that were also cut down a bit. We used Ferrea undercut long valves and Ram Air IV valve train . In the early 80's an 11 second car on the street had very little competition
I love it. I did the same thing to my 1965 GTO as far as the carburetor and electric and mechanical fuel pump together. Plus the timing. And no that wasn't no run-of-the-mill 389 three deuces in mine. I took that motor out and put it in the shop. I found a motor out of a wrecked 62. It was a two-plus-two Catalina I think it was a 421 I guess I should say in fact I know it was. With twin four-barrel done tops she was wow. Truly a beast and hard to handle out of the hole. She would pull a wheelie. Oh yeah I still got the Beast
HP still has to be applied to the track. Chevelle slipped too much early on or it would have eked it out. That, IMO, was about the best looking Firebird ever made.
Two great street cars, Period. Each capable of winning against virtually anything that was available at the time, from any manufacturer. Hookup was the key.
Holy crap! A Pontiac, that was beat off the line by a Chevy, but pulled ahead at the end of the track. That's "totally" backwards from real world. People are saying the FB had a weight advantage, but it didn't seem too critical, cause the Chevy was a bit ahead from the start and most of the way down. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think the RAII was breathing better at the end of the track. Why? Cause Pontiac performance motors always had better exhaust manifolds than Chevy. Not that it mattered, cause once the Chevy cars went home, the manifolds went in the trash, and hedders went on. Wish there was a 2 outta 3. Thanks for the video CAZ.
I thought the same thing when I first witnessed this race, "oh, Chevelle got him off the line. L78 really wakes up back half of the track, so there's no chance here." I was surprised. It was a great race!
Hi there C & Z, I picked the Poncho, you can't underestimate those Ram Air II which were the precursor to the Ram Air IV. Suprised on the MPH, no traction problems there by the looks of it. Both beautiful presented Muscle Cars. You take care & keep those video's coming. Was there any L89, 1967 Chevelle's made now that would be awesome. Your number 1 Fan in Australia Louis Kats from Melbourne Australia ☺ 👍 ❤
I don't believe there were any L89 Chevelles in 1967. That didn't really take place in the Chevelle until '69, but there are rumors of one late '68 with factory aluminum heads. The Camaro had the L89 available in 1968, much more readily than the Chevelle.
@@CarsAndZebras lol, I got lucky! I knew about these cars for a while. There was a light blue ram air2 firebird that was dominant at the f.a.s.t. races
Pop's Garage Mayhem Just because it looks stock on the outside doesn’t mean it’s stock on the inside A stock Chevelle and Firebird don’t turn low 13s without some kind of help
Is there a forum somewhere where all these Pure Stock drivers talk? I would love to have a few conversations with these 4 speed drivers on how they are hooking so well on bias play redline tires..
375 HP is what GM said it was. It was made clear, and I've seen this is several places, that the L78 was putting out around 420-425 HP. The 65 Corvette, the only year Corvette with a 396, essentially the same motor as this Chevelle, was rated at 425 HP. It's all relative, you can't just go on what the manufacturers HP ratings tell you, that's not what's really going on under the hood. But it was a great race, very close, both cars ran strong. On any given day, either car could win.
@@RoadRunnergarage8570 , it definitely was political. My point was that you can't use those figures that the manufacturers gave out when matching up cars. The reality is very different than the "political" numbers that were given by the manufacturers.
Good gugga mugga the Air-2 is a BEAST! Hardcore Pontiac automotive pornography at its best. Thanks for another great classic matchup my friend, good stuff! 👍 👍
I love both cars. I experienced that era first hand. I've got a large collection of the original 60s/70s car magazines of various publications. It's a little hard to reconcile all those road tests with the ET/trap speed of these two cars. Very few machines were trapping out at 110 mph+ in stock configuration and those that did were eminently more qualified than these two cars (eg L-88 Vette or 427 Cobra). Maybe clocks ran slower back then. The "removable tab" on the Firebirds back then, as I recall, was just the angle of the secondary Q-jet throttle plate tang. All you had to do was bend it slightly to get the throttle plates at 90 degrees WOT.
I had a '67 Chevelle SS, with a '66 Corvette 396 in it, some kind of wild cam and solid lifters, it had the Turbo 400 trans, dual caliper disc brakes, all kinds of suspension mods, such as air shocks and coil overs with air bags - it was a beast! Posi rear with 4-11's made for great street rod. UNcorked it sounded like a pro-stock dragster. Put it in gear and the tires barked! Whoever built it knew what they were doing. I had it painted Silver with the black vinyl top and Craiger SS's all around, it was a beauty. There is no other car I know of that gives the driver the view over the hood like a '67 Chevelle SS.Yeah, it's one of the cars I wish I still had. Sadly I don't even have a photo of it!
@@chrisschumacher9197 You are correct! So my engine must have been out of a 1965 Corvette - I really don't know as I bought it the way it was. All I really know is at 8,000 RPM that big block sounded awesome. It was a beast. The transmission was amazing as well. The '67 Chevelle SS is a really hard car to come by now.
@@alangross2277 I wasn't busting your balls or anything I hope you still have the car cuz that's a very rare motor even if you don't have it it was probably super badass
@@chrisschumacher9197 No problem....I don't offend easily and I appreciate your replies! I was told when I bought the car off of our local Chevy Dealer, in Emmett, Idaho way back in like 1974, it had a '66 Corvette engine in it. It was not stock and it would hit 8,000 RPM regularly...there's just nothing like hearing a big block turning 8,000 RPM! That was back in the day where the rod shops sold glass pack header mufflers, bolt them directly to the header flanges and go. As far as I knew it was a 396, ...I spun a rod bearing once and that was a fairly expensive repair for back then, because it had aluminum connecting rods. The dealer wanted to sponsor me for drag racing and were trying to talk me into a full aluminum block; I figured the car was already high maintenance and wasn't really wanting to go any further. I had gone out to Firebird Raceway a couple of times and did real well drag racing - the car ran very consistent times! It was my daily driver and while I had gotten it painted and completely re-did the interior it was not a great daily driver. Gas was cheap back then and with 8MPG highway it was no problem, but keeping the oil from blowing out through the valve cover vents was near impossible. Drove to Northern Idaho in it once, every time I filled up for gas, I'd have to add oil and wipe off the valve covers. Eventually I made extension tubes and set the breathers on the tubes; this helped quite a bit. While it was a great car as far as a street rod went, but it made me loath Chevy's lack of quality (especially interior quality) and I have not owned any GM products since that one.
That RA2 Firebird had a lot of launch problems but once he hooked he reeled in that Chevy......both cool cars though. That RA2 car was factory built with the 1/4 mile in mind and it shows.
Both very nice cars, I always wanted a 67 Chevelle, I had 2 65's one hardtop/automatic, the other was a droptop, 327/4spd, my buddy had a 68 firebird with a not so mild 327 Chevy motor, Mr gasket V-gate shifter was a sweet car, and Bruce could drive!!!
It's always interesting hearing the commercials that people get on these videos. I obviously don't choose them, the google algorithm picks them based on what they think your interests are. Weird stuff pops-up sometimes.
I can answer the 67 Chevelle poor sales numbers, my old ass was around back then. 1 it was a heavy car 2 people didn’t like the new front end for 67 3 it was considered to be more of the, parents car. AND it was the first year of the Camaro which was massively more popular. In the late 60’s muscle car buyers wanted smaller lighter cars with big block power.
Them round port RA/II & RA IV heads do really work ! however it was to bad Pontiac stopped producing a forged steel S/D crank & rods so you could really wind them up. With a cast crank your forced to shift at 6,500 rpm. and full on power shifts are a no no or you bring it back a knockin !
You mention the weight of these cars which in most are very large. Out of curiosity I checked out the weight of my 2006 Dodge Status 4 door which is not a huge car. 4225🤯
I have had both a 69 350 HO Firebird and a 67 SS, not an L78. None the less, the times bare out the extra weight of the Chevelle. L78 in a 68 Camaro vs the RA II would be VERY tight. Now the RA IV was a very potent platform but the lack of cubic inches hobbled it against an LS6. However, Pontiac introduced the RA IV a year sooner plus made it available in the F body, something Chevrolet didn't do. Put the ZL1 aside as that was purpose built. The RA V never got enough support to make it viable because Trans Am had to allow destroying to let Chrysler in. If that had not have happened WHAT pray tell would have appeared for 1970? Way more than the pinnacle it rostered. Imagine ordering an RA V GTO or Formula, a Stage 3 GSX, a W99 Cutlass or the one who did not come officially to the dance, but a Caddy Catera Biarritz with a 500 cube frame twister (think Monte Carlo/ Grand Prix). Did I just dream out loud?
I keep looking for an old first gen firebird, but never quite find what I'm looking for. All of the old articles state they were quite a bit better to drive than a camaro.
@@CarsAndZebras I think the spring rates and sway bar were different. Gearbox ratios are unknown to me but I do know that Z28s had an optional ratio gearbox that made them feel altogether different to drive. My HO was a bit odd it had a HD 3 spd manual and 3.55 Saf-T-Trac and an oversize pulley on the AC compressor to slow it down internally. The car was meant to be driven at speed! I had that thing to 145 on the speedo a few times and it had a great road feel. If we knew then what we know about tires and speed ratings.......I would still have done it. I had fist gen Radial TAs on Rally IIs with black centers. Then the fun began with an M21 transplant for starters. 1978.
Both cars are a couple of my favs.torque monsters.but the gs.stage 1 was king of that w/510 ft.lbs torque followed closely by the kids 442 w/505.& These cars are really not much heavier than a c7 corvette.with better tires these beauties would turn much more respectable times.better electronics & fuel injection would help w/ reliability & throttle respond too.very nice examples.
firebird there lighter and faster> being light make for more tire spend too. Why the Chevelle did so good off the line> the bit on the tires But notice the top end when the bird was bitting the tract if took off! > couse drivers can make all the difference in the world too > Sure it hard on the cluch but take off in 2nd gear whould jump out there cause it was 1 less shift> Why i love a slap stick automatic LIKE IN MY BEE much much faster shifting!! got the edge over a shandard transmission!
Because that was the weight of the car when assessed during inspection the day before the race. As the video states, the weight listed is with driver. Curb weight of a 1968 Firebird 400 is 3400 pounds.
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Great race with two RARE cars! I'm trying to keep up my posting schedule, but with the coronavirus outbreak I'm working non-stop at my, "real job." Anyway, I might throw together an extra video for April Fools Day.... we'll see.
If we go back to the yellow Camaro 396 with the pot lid hubcaps, that was a very memorable 396 spank!! 😜😝😆
Cars And Zebras love the Pontiac ram air style motors🍻
@@ralphsmallblock4367 C&Z is definitely a "Shovelmaster"... he owns an avocado 🥑 green Shovel!! LOL 😂
gearmeister what year I remember my 1970.5 Pontiac formula parts car was that avocado green I got the ram air 3 heads manifolds and turbo 400 transmission it made my transam super duper I will always remember that car 👍🏻tough as nails💀
1978 trans am big T roofs I loved it
The Ram Air 2 was the start of a great dynasty for Pontiac that ended with the 455 Super Duty in 1974. The round port heads flowed better than the standard heads but were still streetable. I would argue that the L78 rectangular port heads were overkill in a stock bodied car. John Lingenfelter tested rectangular port heads vs oval port heads and found the oval ports out performed the rectangular port heads up to about 700 horsepower. Those are some big breathing heads!! Either way both cars are awesome examples of 1960's technology at it's finest.
Both were strong performers, but man do those Pontiac heads & ram air setups flow!
The Ram Air II in a ‘68 Firebird is just a fantastic combination.
That's what I have in my 1968 Firebird she just instant response
I really like both of those cars. not many '67 chevelles around any more. obviously the ram air II firebird is rare.
I would have no problem with having both of these cars in my garage!
I regularly street raced a 68 Chevelle SS back in the day. The 396 ran exceptional, and I had very few losses. However, I will never forget the night I lost to a 69 400 Firebird. Not sure which 400 he had, but it sure caught me off guard. Seemed through the 70s there were a plethora of these 400 birds lying around for relatively cheap. Everyone wanted the camaros instead.
They’ve always remained cheaper than the Camaro, and I don’t really understand why.
Cars And Zebras camaro’s were plain toast firebirds were grilled cheese and trans am were double cheeseburgers 🍔😎
@@ralphsmallblock4367 Chevy just had far more options to offer the performance enthusiasts, thus their marketing was also completely different.
Badger Bait well I sure miss them camaro’s and firebirds of the day 400 cubic and up were the norm . I loved all the variations back in the day. 🍻 As we can talk about them days of street racing it was ok back then not like now cops are soulless
@@ralphsmallblock4367, They weren't too cooperative back then, either! I had so much fun in the early days they yanked my license for six months right after high school! Can't imagine what they'd do to me now!
Ahh, Pontiac finally wins! The Firebird's were some of the best looking cars from 67-69. In black, that one looks sharp! Hard to believe that block started life as a 287, and ran through all iterations from 326-455 with the exception of crank journal size. RAM Air stuff is about as fascinating as the Super Duty engines. Another great vid!
Thanks for watching! 😎
Ram Air 400 is a great engine, but i'll take a SD-455 (73) over any engine out there period.
@@sergiojacquez2277 Yes get some more compression in that SD-455 and it really hauls - a 74 SD-455 T/A Ran a 12.46 @ 109 MPH with 9.7 to 1 Compression street tires etc.
@@1Bandit455 Dude, nothing is as it appears.. The cars featured in this pizants videos are all pumped up on steroids!
Nothing makes me happier than seeing a Pontiac beat a Chevy.
Lol
Yeah buddy,,
Me too.
That moment at 2:13 made me very happy.
I think it makes everyone happy 👍
There’s no loser here! Notice how the SS spun sideways when they started. Awesome video thanks!
Thanks for watching!
The Bird has a Qjet on an iron intake, hydraulic cam, that particular one has gone mid 12s before, and people think Pontiacs are slow. The D port 400 isn't far behind with only a 214/225@.050 cam with a 115 LSA. The D port RA III only has a 224/236@.050 on a 115. RA IV was 231/240 115, the RA II used the same cam but with 1.5 ratio rockers. The L78 needed dome pistons, aluminum intake, Holley carb, and a 242/242 114 solid cam to get where the Pontiac is with flat tops. 200lbs is roughly .2 in the 1/4. That means Pontiac did a lot more with less, but the chevy is somehow the best in people's minds.
Want to know what happens when you put a 242@.050 cam in an 11:1 Pontiac 400? The gaptizement increases considerably, and no need for a solid lifter either. I went mid 11s with a cam the size of the RA III in a 3900lb '79 Formula and 3.42 gears shifting at 5800. The chevy guys always asked how much I was spraying... it was fun beating all of them by a fender because I lifted instead of running it all out. The 454 powered '68 Camaro didn't want to race, he knew what times the Bird was running at the track. Daily driver fun beating trailered 'race' cars in 1998. My junk is a little bit quicker now, still have that Formula and its around 800lbs lighter with 700hp@6500rpm... Naturally aspirated Pontiac powered of course. Gonna hurt chevy fee fees around here this summer.. if we aren't all dead.
The Pontiac engines were amazing. The more I learn about them, the more I can't believe what they did with so little. I have a 67 Bird in my garage waiting on an engine rebuild. The builder loves working on the Pontiac Blocks, so much room to build and be creative. Thanks for posting all the details, saved me from looking it all up.
@@TheDatadrew I've been building Pontiac engines and racing them since the 80s. That means I have a bunch of them sitting around either in cars, ready to go in, or waiting to get built. You can do some amazing things with mostly stock parts, a set of headers, mild cam, stock stall and highway gears.
The coolest thing about them is how much interchanges, and the block is the same size from the original 287 to the 455, and up to 540ci with the aftermarket blocks, and all the stock parts (within certain year breaks) will fit. That means a 540 can look like a 326 or a 350, and we can make 5:1 compression all the way to 13:1 with a factory head, and flat top pistons.
No need for deep gears, big stall converters, and long duration cams. You can go mid tens easily with an iron head and a little bit of work, pushing a 3.08-3.55 gear, depending on which crank you use and how much the car weighs. I slowed my Formula with a 4.10 gear because back then if you ran 11.99 or quicker you needed at least a 6 point roll bar. The 4.10 made it run 12.1s@110-113 very consistent, with a best of 11.71@115 vs 11.42@120 with the 3.42 gear. Just a very mild easy going 455 that got 13mpg with the 4.10 gears and an 850 Holley double pumper. It got 17 with the 3.42 gear which isn't bad for something making 540ish hp with a Holley on it.
Wallerracing.com is a good source of info. If you have a 400 block, stroking it to a 461 costs about the same as rebuilding a 400 with forged rods and pistons. Summit, KRE, and Butler all have balanced crank kits for around $1500 that turn a 400 into a 461 with a .030 over bore. Pretty much any D port with 2.11" intake valves and screw in studs (all the 4 barrel heads) will work for you, the main difference in them is compression. Pontiac used flat tops in everything but the 428 that had a slight dish, they changed compression with chamber size of the head.
If you have a 350 then its easy, some 72cc 400 heads, 12,13,48,62,670 castings and a cam about the size of the Summit 2802, which is real close to the stock 744 RA III cam. The 2801 will work good too, its like the 068 (214/224) cam that came in all the D port 4 barrel cars without Ram Air.
Chuck a 1900-2200 stall in it(if auto), stock intake with a Qjet or a Performer and a Holley, headers, and recurve the advance so its all in by 3000rpm... and I'd recommend running it on E85, because it makes more power, burns vastly cleaner, runs cooler and will never ever ping/spark knock.. plus its cheap, like 87 octane cheap.
I run E85 in all my old stuff, most of the time it only takes a carb swap, unless you have a bunch of varnish in the tank from race gas or no ethanol pump gas. It will clean all that crud out and clog the carb, pump, filter, etc.
@@SweatyFatGuy That's one of the funny things I see from other brand enthusiasts is not understanding that a 326 looks just like a 400. I try to pick up spare blocks from anywhere up to 72 when I can find them. I have done a lot of research on the build process, but never actually tackled one. I've found Pontiac people are extremely helpful with questions. I just copied your comment into my book of notes on what all I still need to learn. The block in my current Bird is out of a 68, and the last rebuild (not by me) was pretty bad. Cylinder bores way out of wack due to over heating. When it came apart, it actually had a cracked piston. This is taking a bit of machine work to bring back to life. I kept all the original stuff from it, pulleys, heads, everything original so I can find a 67 block and put the car back the way it should be. It is a firebird base, so, it needs a 326. The original 2 speed tranny is long gone, it has a Turbo 400 now, but I'd like to put a manual in it. The engine being built right now, will come out and go into a G8 for fun. Thanks for taking the time to write all that up, I'll use and appreciate it in the future! C&Z has a great crowd on his channel.
@@TheDatadrew I like these engines because they're cheap to make tons of torque and use a highway gear that is already in the car. That engine that ran 11s cost me all of $2700 to build in 1996. Those heads are on my '65 GTO's 455 now, running E85. Its about 500lbs lighter than the Bird was, and hooks much better even with 255 Cooper radials under it. Makes for a seriously fun daily driver.
Lots of people have no clue about these engines, they try to do what works for a 350 chevy on them, and they always go slow. Big cam, single plane intake, big stall, deep gears... it leaves so much power unused or used to quickly. Then they try to spin it to 7500 with stock rods and can't figure out why an engine with a 4.21" stroke threw a rod out the block. Even a 400 doesn't have to go over 6500, and that is with quite a bit of head work.
Its the difference between 500ftlsb at 2000rpm 550 at 4000, and 500 at 6000. very flat torque curve.. vs an engine that makes the same 500hp but at 8000rpm, its only making 330ftlbs and you have to spin the snot out of it to get the power. Short gears are intended to let the engine RPM because it has no torque, with 500+ftlbs from idle to 6k, you don't need a deep gear, and it will easily pull a 2.73 and not care.
One of my 8:1 compression D port 455s had a 2004R with its .62 OD and a 2.93 gear turning 28" tall tires, it would pass in 4th like most cars do when they downshift. It was also in a 4100lb 70 GTO, that ran mid to high 12s like that.
Since these pure stocks are on those skinny bias tires, the deep gears like a 3.90 or 3.73 can help get them off the line, because they will spin a shorter distance. A 2.73 will smoke the tires the entire length of the track with a RA II or a 455 HO turning them. The 3.08-3.42 is going to be faster as long as you can hook it off the line.
I type kinda fast, so writing these doesn't take me long, its all trapped in my noggin so I let it out when I can.
@@SweatyFatGuy that's way i love pontiac.
Great ETs from a pair of GM's finest.
Pretty impressive, but conditions were terrible that day. On a good day these cars will actually run high 12s!
@@CarsAndZebras Plus THEM TIRES !!!! OMG forget about traction !!!! F-70/14s bias ply, up in smoke real quick.
Sounded like that poncho was still peeling some rubber when he grabbed 3rd in front of the camera. Nice matchup. I would have figured the Chevy for the win but I know from personal experience the Pontiacs are no joke.
I really think in great conditions this match could go either way 👍
73 SD-455 Trans-am with M22 4sp i ate every chevy i raced back in the 80's
Mine will get a wheel at 90 miles an hour when I throw it into third
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I dig this channel, cause I missed the musclecar era and you always hear that everything ran 9s stock .
Now the kids (and me) can get a rough idea of what these beasts did back then
👍
That is if you knew how to tune them to get this kind of performance. It took some coaxing to get these cars into the 12s. Most were in the 14 to 15 range in the 1/4 mile stock. Most drivers had a heavy right foot and no idea beyond checking the oil how to make their car faster. Lift the rear and jam some bigger tires under it came first. Almost backwards.
@@thegreenerthemeaner
Aw yea no doubt.
Read most any road test back then.
About the only one I recall standing out in my mind is an ls6 Chevelle , they seemed to run low/mid 13s off the floor and that was king of the hill back then.
I read the rules , and they do keep em pretty close but modern tires are probably worth a second on most of that stuff from back then.
@@MrTheHillfolk my Journeyman had a brand new '67 Cobra 427. He killed everything at the street drags. He said the '70 Chevelles weren't that quick. He talked up the mopars 440's close to him. Most guys couldn't get the 426 Hemi running correctly.
@@kevinmanning4880 yeah I heard the hemis could be fussy and you had to stay on the tune.
Before my time ,a cousin of mine was dating a girl who's father was some bigwig for the cobras back in the 60s.
My cuz wanted a 289 cobra but they just brought out the 427, so what's a fella to do?
Ask and ye shall receive....
Receive a 289 body/engine on a 427 chassis.
Worked great on these backroads of upstate NY.
He's still kicking himself that he got rid of that car !
I gotta give the edge to the Firebird due to weight.. BTW Thanks for keeping the videos flowing through tough times..
👍
Yup!
Got a 67 bird love it to hell, see a lot more first-gen Camaros than you do Firebirds
Very true I have a 67 firebird and I love it
Great race! Could have gone either way! The Firebirds were somewhat overshadowed by the Camaros, but they were stormers...two of GMs rarest and finest!
Surprised that Chevelle was right on his heels, the 400 Bird's where light weights with a heavy weight punch, never underestimate a Pontiac from the 60's. No matter how big the car is.
Somewhere I’ve got footage of a Grand Prix running down the track, and that thing is surprisingly quick
Cars And Zebras As I grew up as my favourite gm back in day when gm was amazing with multiple brands always love Pontiacs
Cars And Zebras would love to see the Grand Prix if possible. I also hear there is a 1969 429 galaxie that runs in pure stock, id like to see it.
I think I've said this before in another of your videos; Poncho Power! Thumb up.
RA II's very underated KNAFEL Pontiacs 68 1/2 RA II 400 Firebird was running 11.90's Back in the day in stock Racing - the record then was a 12.43 in that class :)
I was the owner of a '68 Firebird 400 (325 hp) with a turbo hydramatic and 3.91 super duty positraction back in the day. My 1st runs with the car were mid to high 14's. I modified the quadrajet to supply more fuel and made my own cold air system, blocked the heat risers in the intake manifold, installed crower anti pump up lifters and added hooker 4 tube headers. In addition, I modified the distributor curve and power timed the car on a clayton chassis dyno (hard to find back in the '60's) and produced 297 RWHP. I also clamped the rear multileaf springs so to act as traction bars and added rear air shocks using legal 7" wide slicks. All this was legal in E/SA and the car ran a best of 13.07@110.88 at vacavalley raceway. It never lost an E/SA class race in NorCal during the years that I ran it but I saw the handwriting on the wall when the 340 Mopars came out and retired the car. I have a crippled left leg and have to use my right leg for both gas and brake. If I had a line lock so I could have properly heated the slicks and launched the car I believe it could have broke into the 12's.
Ram Air Pontiacs all day long against the heavy chevy. My base model 68 GTO blew the doors off a bunch of chevys. The torque from the 400 with headers was over 475 lb ft. I had to half throttle on launch, even with 50s on the back.
Two excellent cars! Looked like the Firebird's front wheels were barely on the track.
Those 1st gen Firebirds are beautiful. I've loved them since I was 6 years old.
Ram Air II is tough to beat. L78 is a great opponent
Both true statements! 😎
My brother had a 69 Firebird. We took a 428 out of a 69 Grandprix and put 400 big valve closed chambered (670) heads on it with the largest Crane Fireball cam turning the valves. Car ran low 11's in street trim. It sure surprised everyone who thought Pontiac's were slow. When they ask us what motor it had we always replied a $500 junkyard motor with a quadrajet . All factory parts including cast iron intake and a factory carb. sure had guys scratching there head. I know a lot of people post stuff that is an exaggeration or just pure fantasy but the motor was not just as simple as it sounds. The heads were hand ported, the intake was reworked and gasket matched, the distributor was dialed in for optimum timing curve, the carb had the Cliff Ruggles treatment. Larger fuel lines and opened up fuel vent on tank were necessary and it had an electric fuel pump in conjunction with the mechanical pump to keep the fuel bowls full in the carb. A lot of attention was paid to fuel delivery to keep it from nosing over on the big end. And for those who know motors it required a little more than pump gas with those closed chambered heads that were also cut down a bit. We used Ferrea undercut long valves and Ram Air IV valve train . In the early 80's an 11 second car on the street had very little competition
I love it. I did the same thing to my 1965 GTO as far as the carburetor and electric and mechanical fuel pump together. Plus the timing. And no that wasn't no run-of-the-mill 389 three deuces in mine. I took that motor out and put it in the shop. I found a motor out of a wrecked 62. It was a two-plus-two Catalina I think it was a 421 I guess I should say in fact I know it was. With twin four-barrel done tops she was wow. Truly a beast and hard to handle out of the hole. She would pull a wheelie. Oh yeah I still got the Beast
More horses(Chevelle) Vs. Less weight(Firebird) ...
HP still has to be applied to the track. Chevelle slipped too much early on or it would have eked it out. That, IMO, was about the best looking Firebird ever made.
Two great street cars, Period. Each capable of winning against virtually anything that was available at the time, from any manufacturer. Hookup was the key.
It wasn’t a great day at the track for traction, that’s for sure. Both cars typically run high 12s
Great Heads Up Race. Both cars were excellent and drivers too. Gotta give the edge to the Pontiac driver...
Love that they were both 4spd...Just like God intended it.
Holy crap! A Pontiac, that was beat off the line by a Chevy, but pulled ahead at the end of the track. That's "totally" backwards from real world. People are saying the FB had a weight advantage, but it didn't seem too critical, cause the Chevy was a bit ahead from the start and most of the way down. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think the RAII was breathing better at the end of the track. Why? Cause Pontiac performance motors always had better exhaust manifolds than Chevy. Not that it mattered, cause once the Chevy cars went home, the manifolds went in the trash, and hedders went on. Wish there was a 2 outta 3. Thanks for the video CAZ.
I thought the same thing when I first witnessed this race, "oh, Chevelle got him off the line. L78 really wakes up back half of the track, so there's no chance here." I was surprised. It was a great race!
Hi there C & Z,
I picked the Poncho, you can't underestimate those Ram Air II which were the precursor to the Ram Air IV.
Suprised on the MPH, no traction problems there by the looks of it.
Both beautiful presented Muscle Cars.
You take care & keep those video's coming.
Was there any L89, 1967 Chevelle's made now that would be awesome.
Your number 1 Fan in Australia
Louis Kats from Melbourne Australia ☺ 👍 ❤
I don't believe there were any L89 Chevelles in 1967. That didn't really take place in the Chevelle until '69, but there are rumors of one late '68 with factory aluminum heads. The Camaro had the L89 available in 1968, much more readily than the Chevelle.
It's a beautiful thing.
👍
I am going with the ram air2
You have a 50/50 chance of being correct!
@@CarsAndZebras lol, I got lucky! I knew about these cars for a while. There was a light blue ram air2 firebird that was dominant at the f.a.s.t. races
I mentioned this car in another comment above. he ran mid 11's.
What the over/under on how long it takes before someone comments, "those cars aren't stock."
The new videos can typically make it about one day… After that, it’s all downhill. 😆
Pop's Garage Mayhem Obviously you don’t know too much about muscle cars these cars definitely weren’t stock at least one second to fast
I'm just here for the high octane gas.
and I guess the cars are cool too.
Pop's Garage Mayhem Just because it looks stock on the outside doesn’t mean it’s stock on the inside A stock Chevelle and Firebird don’t turn low 13s without some kind of help
Steve Kostura Just tuned and dialed in these are very realistic times.
Both cars sounded great going down the strip. Excellent race.
Both cars and drivers rocked it!!
This was funny as hell , not a Chevy guy , but I thoroughly enjoyed this video.
thanks for watching! I appreciate it! 👍
Is there a forum somewhere where all these Pure Stock drivers talk? I would love to have a few conversations with these 4 speed drivers on how they are hooking so well on bias play redline tires..
Go on facebook and join the group, “stock appearing drag racers”
But it could go either way since the Chevelle is the 375 HP version..
375 HP is what GM said it was. It was made clear, and I've seen this is several places, that the L78 was putting out around 420-425 HP. The 65 Corvette, the only year Corvette with a 396, essentially the same motor as this Chevelle, was rated at 425 HP. It's all relative, you can't just go on what the manufacturers HP ratings tell you, that's not what's really going on under the hood. But it was a great race, very close, both cars ran strong. On any given day, either car could win.
IMO the "ratings" we're more political than fact... Remember Chevy said " No car in our line can have as much or more power than the Corvette.."..
@@RoadRunnergarage8570 , it definitely was political. My point was that you can't use those figures that the manufacturers gave out when matching up cars. The reality is very different than the "political" numbers that were given by the manufacturers.
They say a lot of those "ratings" we're a joke.... Some of the " ratings" we're political.. And some was to try to fool the insurance companies...
Thomas Barnard Don’t forget back in those days the horsepower was gross it was more like 300 hp or less to the rear wheels
Most people don't know where to put THE QTR EMBLEMS. Case in point.
Thanks for another great video, great background information
Good gugga mugga the Air-2 is a BEAST! Hardcore Pontiac automotive pornography at its best. Thanks for another great classic matchup my friend, good stuff! 👍 👍
I love both cars. I experienced that era first hand. I've got a large collection of the original 60s/70s car magazines of various publications. It's a little hard to reconcile all those road tests with the ET/trap speed of these two cars. Very few machines were trapping out at 110 mph+ in stock configuration and those that did were eminently more qualified than these two cars (eg L-88 Vette or 427 Cobra). Maybe clocks ran slower back then. The "removable tab" on the Firebirds back then, as I recall, was just the angle of the secondary Q-jet throttle plate tang. All you had to do was bend it slightly to get the throttle plates at 90 degrees WOT.
My first car was a '67 Chevelle. I would love to drive that one around the block a few times!
Love theFirebird!
I had a '67 Chevelle SS, with a '66 Corvette 396 in it, some kind of wild cam and solid lifters, it had the Turbo 400 trans, dual caliper disc brakes, all kinds of suspension mods, such as air shocks and coil overs with air bags - it was a beast! Posi rear with 4-11's made for great street rod. UNcorked it sounded like a pro-stock dragster. Put it in gear and the tires barked! Whoever built it knew what they were doing. I had it painted Silver with the black vinyl top and Craiger SS's all around, it was a beauty. There is no other car I know of that gives the driver the view over the hood like a '67 Chevelle SS.Yeah, it's one of the cars I wish I still had. Sadly I don't even have a photo of it!
They only put the 425 horsepower 396 in the Corvette in 1965 the 427 came in 1966,1965 was the only year 396 in a Corvette
@@chrisschumacher9197 You are correct! So my engine must have been out of a 1965 Corvette - I really don't know as I bought it the way it was. All I really know is at 8,000 RPM that big block sounded awesome. It was a beast. The transmission was amazing as well. The '67 Chevelle SS is a really hard car to come by now.
@@alangross2277 I wasn't busting your balls or anything I hope you still have the car cuz that's a very rare motor even if you don't have it it was probably super badass
@@chrisschumacher9197 No problem....I don't offend easily and I appreciate your replies! I was told when I bought the car off of our local Chevy Dealer, in Emmett, Idaho way back in like 1974, it had a '66 Corvette engine in it. It was not stock and it would hit 8,000 RPM regularly...there's just nothing like hearing a big block turning 8,000 RPM! That was back in the day where the rod shops sold glass pack header mufflers, bolt them directly to the header flanges and go. As far as I knew it was a 396, ...I spun a rod bearing once and that was a fairly expensive repair for back then, because it had aluminum connecting rods. The dealer wanted to sponsor me for drag racing and were trying to talk me into a full aluminum block; I figured the car was already high maintenance and wasn't really wanting to go any further. I had gone out to Firebird Raceway a couple of times and did real well drag racing - the car ran very consistent times! It was my daily driver and while I had gotten it painted and completely re-did the interior it was not a great daily driver. Gas was cheap back then and with 8MPG highway it was no problem, but keeping the oil from blowing out through the valve cover vents was near impossible. Drove to Northern Idaho in it once, every time I filled up for gas, I'd have to add oil and wipe off the valve covers. Eventually I made extension tubes and set the breathers on the tubes; this helped quite a bit. While it was a great car as far as a street rod went, but it made me loath Chevy's lack of quality (especially interior quality) and I have not owned any GM products since that one.
@@alangross2277 that is a cool story, sounded like a great time
That Poncho made a respectable pull, but so did the Chevelle. Thumb up.
I think the Pontiac's a bit under-rated too, because it looks like the Firebird gave up a couple of tenths off the line and still ran the SS down.
Less Weight (and a slight Displacement edge) Trumps More HP..
Yeah, that 2nd Chevelle commercial would have had me standing in line with a gun at the Chevrolet factory... right on.
It would have been a split if the Chevelle didnt slide sideways at the light!
Two of my favorite muscle of that era.
Both very nice!
👍
That RA2 Firebird had a lot of launch problems but once he hooked he reeled in that Chevy......both cool cars though.
That RA2 car was factory built with the 1/4 mile in mind and it shows.
Had a 68 Firebird my senior year of high school! Don't know if it was a Ram Air ll or not, but it was sure enough fast!
Car companies had to show cars like these with underrated horsepower for insurance reasons.
Maybe I'm the outlier but I'm taking home the Chevelle if I have the choice between the two. The Ram Air is cool though.
I definitely dig both of them. 😎
Love the bird.
👍 🦅
looks like the FB drove around the Chevelle on the top end. Impressive.
Thank you for the nostalgic entertainment brother. Although the bird took it, the L78 is all I heard going down the track.
Thanks for watching!
Both very nice cars, I always wanted a 67 Chevelle, I had 2 65's one hardtop/automatic, the other was a droptop, 327/4spd, my buddy had a 68 firebird with a not so mild 327 Chevy motor, Mr gasket V-gate shifter was a sweet car, and Bruce could drive!!!
It was actually worth suffering through a few milliseconds of Paul Krugman before I hit "SKIP AD" and got to this. : D
It's always interesting hearing the commercials that people get on these videos. I obviously don't choose them, the google algorithm picks them based on what they think your interests are. Weird stuff pops-up sometimes.
A little known fact about the firebird. Pontiac didn't want it faster than the gto, so they modified the carb to not open completely.
The Bird has a very good midrange and top end charge!!! That Bird was coming!
Heavy Chevy All Day!👊🏿
One of my favorite Chevelle but hate that vinyl top!
Now who really thought that underpowered firebird would outrun the monster Chevelle?
Looks like JJ's Zip Tie car !!
I think the Zip Tie car is a Chevy II. But it looks very similar to this Chevelle with the red paint and the black vinyl top!!
Looked like ZZ Top walking behind the Firebird.
They definitely had some cheap sunglasses, but they didn’t look like very sharp dressed men, so I assume it’s someone else.
Amazing how a 50 year old well tuned stock Pontiac can almost pull a 12 sec pass on reproduction bias ply tires.
Should have run a ram air 4.
Nice cameo by Chip (Ed Bassmaster) Pssh!
I'll take either car, but that firebird is my exact all time favorite car.
The Chevelle driver drilled the guy in the Firebird at the light, the Pontiac just drove around him.
I can answer the 67 Chevelle poor sales numbers, my old ass was around back then. 1 it was a heavy car 2 people didn’t like the new front end for 67 3 it was considered to be more of the, parents car. AND it was the first year of the Camaro which was massively more popular.
In the late 60’s muscle car buyers wanted smaller lighter cars with big block power.
I like Camaros, but for 1967 I think I’d have to go with a Chevelle.
Them round port RA/II & RA IV heads do really work ! however it was to bad Pontiac stopped producing a forged steel S/D crank & rods so you could really wind them up. With a cast crank your forced to shift at 6,500 rpm. and full on power shifts are a no no or you bring it back a knockin !
Chevelle is like a brick with wheels they had no concept of aerodynamics then. Firebird any day over that sled.
I got to own my brother 1966 Chevelle SS 396 after I blew the Motor up and he got to buy a new roadrunner.
You mention the weight of these cars which in most are very large. Out of curiosity I checked out the weight of my 2006 Dodge Status 4 door which is not a huge car. 4225🤯
IMO I think the earlier Firebirds look way better than there camaro cousins. They just look tougher !!
I have had both a 69 350 HO Firebird and a 67 SS, not an L78. None the less, the times bare out the extra weight of the Chevelle. L78 in a 68 Camaro vs the RA II would be VERY tight. Now the RA IV was a very potent platform but the lack of cubic inches hobbled it against an LS6. However, Pontiac introduced the RA IV a year sooner plus made it available in the F body, something Chevrolet didn't do. Put the ZL1 aside as that was purpose built. The RA V never got enough support to make it viable because Trans Am had to allow destroying to let Chrysler in. If that had not have happened WHAT pray tell would have appeared for 1970? Way more than the pinnacle it rostered. Imagine ordering an RA V GTO or Formula, a Stage 3 GSX, a W99 Cutlass or the one who did not come officially to the dance, but a Caddy Catera Biarritz with a 500 cube frame twister (think Monte Carlo/ Grand Prix). Did I just dream out loud?
I keep looking for an old first gen firebird, but never quite find what I'm looking for. All of the old articles state they were quite a bit better to drive than a camaro.
@@CarsAndZebras I think the spring rates and sway bar were different. Gearbox ratios are unknown to me but I do know that Z28s had an optional ratio gearbox that made them feel altogether different to drive. My HO was a bit odd it had a HD 3 spd manual and 3.55 Saf-T-Trac and an oversize pulley on the AC compressor to slow it down internally. The car was meant to be driven at speed! I had that thing to 145 on the speedo a few times and it had a great road feel. If we knew then what we know about tires and speed ratings.......I would still have done it. I had fist gen Radial TAs on Rally IIs with black centers. Then the fun began with an M21 transplant for starters. 1978.
They are both beautiful car's
Everyone seems to miss the fact the Chevelle spun pretty badly and had to let out.
Chevelle looked like it was spinning then lifted a little
1:31 Let's not underestimate how awesome _this_ is... 😃
You can tell by the mph these cars run faster than this
GM made some bad ass big blocks!...and still do with the crates.
RAM AIR IIs wake up mid-range.
I really hate how they rear "squat" all the way down the track.
Guy in Firebird got tree'd!
Firebird all day long.....
That Firebird is bad ass!
A more fair matchup would be L78 in a SS Camaro.
.....or a Ram Air 2 powered GTO.
Guess I was wrong about that race can't win them all enjoyed it anyway.
You need to do a 67 nova 327ci 375hp 4 speed.
dose anyone know who to subscribe to who shows old school bikes this channel does
The guy in the chevell was shifting way too soon!
Both cars are a couple of my favs.torque monsters.but the gs.stage 1 was king of that w/510 ft.lbs torque followed closely by the kids 442 w/505.& These cars are really not much heavier than a c7 corvette.with better tires these beauties would turn much more respectable times.better electronics & fuel injection would help w/ reliability & throttle respond too.very nice examples.
The king of torque was the 500 Caddy with 550 ft lbs
WHAT HAPPENED TOO THE 3 OUT OF 3 ???
firebird there lighter and faster> being light make for more tire spend too. Why the Chevelle did so good off the line> the bit on the tires But notice the top end when the bird was bitting the tract if took off! > couse drivers can make all the difference in the world too > Sure it hard on the cluch but take off in 2nd gear whould jump out there cause it was 1 less shift> Why i love a slap stick automatic LIKE IN MY BEE much much faster shifting!! got the edge over a shandard transmission!
Why do these videos keep saying that these Firebird way 3600 pounds the title on my 68 Firebird 400 weighs 3030 lb ?
Because that was the weight of the car when assessed during inspection the day before the race. As the video states, the weight listed is with driver. Curb weight of a 1968 Firebird 400 is 3400 pounds.
Very close race