of the wrecked portuguese ship testimony of the crew Japanese people are patient and work hard. Suitable for slavery, sending missionaries around the world Send merchants and finally invade with your army! In this testimony, Taiko Hideyoshi issued an expulsion order. He banned Christianity.
My apologies for commenting in English, but my 日本語 plainly sucks :-( OK, here we go: (1) the Japanese actors in this movie are EXCELLENT, especially Mr Issei Ogata, whose portrayal of Inquisitor Inoue is just so profound and fascinating; (2) I understand that Scorsese was bound to use English as the primary language in the original release, but in the Japanese release, it would have been much more realistic to have all non-Japanese dialogues dubbed into Portuguese -- Hearing Tokugawa officials and Jesuits converse in English back in the 1600's is just so weird! (3) Regarding the (hi)story itself, I guess that the Japanese authorities were right afterall. The superficiality and arrogance with which the missionaries approached Japan's sophisticated culture, plus the social unrest (i.e. riots) that they caused, provided the Tokugawa authorities with plenty of reasons to act against the Christians the way they did -- Sure enough, it was brutal, but hey, how did the Catholics deal with those whom they called "heretics"? Same treatment: incarceration, torture, annihilation. At least, Christians in Japan were offered an opportunity to same themselves by a simple act of 絵踏み, while heretics in Europe were just wiped out, often times even if they abjured. When you look at the events in perspective, the Tokugawa showed much more mercy than their European counterparts.
And where is the genocide of non-Christians by Catholics in European history? It doesn’t exist. You’ve been reading too much popular history brother, read the real stuff.
If Japan would have allowed Christianity to flourish, Japanese history, culture, language would all have been destroyed. Just like it was for the Inca and Aztecs in the America's. Thankfully the Japanese were too wise to allow that to happen.
I don't know if you just watched this clip but if so that would explain your ignorance. Stepping on the fumie did not save a Japanese Christian from suffering. It was a trick just to demoralize others who had not yet stepped. Later on Andrew Garfield's character is telling Japanese hanging in the pit to apostatize but they already had, the Japanese government just wasn't done torturing them to get what they wanted from the priest. It's a weird ignorance exhibited by both yourself and the Japanese government of this time to blame the government torturing the Japanese of the priests rather than the ones actually doing the torturing. The most ironic bit is that they told the priests to step on the fumie to save the Japanese Christians and yet what happens after Rodriguez steps on the fumie? He becomes a government agent helping the Japanese to track down more Japanese Christians and those Christians end up tortured and killed. People like you are useful idiots for evil regimes.
I have little time for this BS narrative of "european" vs the world. I can look into the history of Japan and point out lots of atrocities committed by japanese people. When will people stop 'comparing' cultures in regards to how civilized they are...when we are all humans and history is full of proof of both good and bad deeds from everyone?
The missionaries did not, with all due respect, convert people by force ie sword like the Muslims did. They preached the gospel peacefully of Jesus, a Jewish Rabbi whom advocated forgivness, mercy and charity to the poor, widows, orphans, disabled and other great teachings. Though the way of life in Japan with Buddhism and Shinto was fine as is. I remember some Japanese emperors, rulers and dynasty's were friendly to Christians. This inquisition in Japan was for political motives as well, not just preserving a way of life. Many Christians I know also practice Biddhism.
The Jesuit missionaries didn't use force when they were powerless, but the Christians killed and massacred to convert large parts of pagan Europe throughout history. Just read up about the crusades in the Baltic. The Catholics also regularly slaughtered "heretics" in Europe, such as in France or the Spanish inquisition.
まじで沈黙面白いからみんな読んでほしい
読んだし、これを見ました。
海水の中に、磔にされた状態で浸けられて水位がだんだん上がり溺れ死にしそうにさえなりそうな拷問の場面は、さすがに涙が出そうになりました。
このシーンで表現したいのは、仏教とキリスト教の対比ではなく、世慣れた大人と理想を信じる青年の対比です。
このシーンで表現したのは、「宗教とは全く無意味なものである」と感じた。
所詮、土地や国で強弱が変わるようなものでしかないものに何を思えと…
未成熟な人間の特徴は理想のために高貴な死を選ぼうとする点にある、それに反して成熟した人間の特徴は理想のために卑小な生を選ぼうとする点にある。
@@bobuyasuchannel4515
現代で宗教が重要視されないのは、それだけ生存に苦労しなくなったから。
現代で、本心から“神を感じた”という者は、精神的にしろ物理的しろ、生存が危ういと“感じ”絶望的精神状態に近い人間が多い。そして客観的な周辺情報を知ることが困難だった。
近代以前はそれだけ個々人が生きるのは大変だったということでしょう。
現代に信仰心というものが残っているのは、それだけ人類が信仰に頼ってきた時間が長いということでしょう。古くは石器時代の壁画が宗教の発芽を示唆しているから、軽く見積もって一桁万年は経っている。
だからたかだか百年ぐらいしか経っていない非宗教の価値観が上回る事ができない。
この役の浅野さん、素晴らしいと思う。
「神の掟」に従えないのが人間だが、仏陀になれないのも人間。どんな宗教も恣意的な教義で設定した神を戴く限り、結局人々を分断するようになる。
This scene seems to best represent the difference in thinking about each other's religion.
無宗教に見えて実は生活の中で意識せずに宗教観、道徳観が備わる日本人と理想を求め続ける青年との対話シーンだと思います。
of the wrecked portuguese ship
testimony of the crew
Japanese people are patient and work hard.
Suitable for slavery, sending missionaries around the world
Send merchants and finally invade with your army!
In this testimony, Taiko Hideyoshi
issued an expulsion order.
He banned Christianity.
せめてロドリゴが仏陀の事を「歴史上の偉人、一人の英雄としてなら大いに評価し尊敬もしてる」と
発言し、さらに天照大神についても「ジャンヌ・ダルクと同等の高貴なる一人の女性として尊敬している」
と言えば、井上たちの見方も変わったかもしれない、と思うのは僕だけだろうか？
異教のことには理解ができないもの。特に昔は
当時のカソリックの傲慢不遜から考えにくい話ですな。アメリカ大陸や太平洋諸島の原住民は人間の姿をした動物扱いでした。┐(´д｀)┌ﾔﾚﾔﾚ
アマテラスの存在を信じているわけではないからね。そういう器用なオベンチャラが言える現実主義者だったら、日本までわざわざ布教にはこなかったのでは？
そういう話なのかな
自分たちが尊敬を受けてないから弾圧してるというわけではないので、そんなこと言われてもおべっかが上滑りしてるようにしか感じない気がするけど
ポルトガル語？
キリスト教って十字軍の件とかあるけど本当に神いたらどう思ってんだろな
神「………」
@@DEKAPAIつまり沈黙
イエス「十字軍？そんな事教えてない…😢」
神は人が造りました
飢餓とかから守るために作ったんだっけ
ほんまそれ。
ありがたや
それだけ言えれば充分ですね。それ以上の言葉を覚えても、
結局こうやってお互いにマウントを取り合うだけ。
同じポルトガル宣教師にさえフランシスコ・カブラルは嫌われていたんですね。
イエスの十字架は仁義の表記(しるし)、天理の権衡(はかり)。イエスの、罪を贖いたまうの道に至りてはその義甚だ広し、、
by 山本覚馬が明治八年春に出会った キリスト教書 「 天道溯原」
Ap Ra
My apologies for commenting in English, but my 日本語 plainly sucks :-( OK, here we go:
(1) the Japanese actors in this movie are EXCELLENT, especially Mr Issei Ogata, whose portrayal of Inquisitor Inoue is just so profound and fascinating;
(2) I understand that Scorsese was bound to use English as the primary language in the original release, but in the Japanese release, it would have been much more realistic to have all non-Japanese dialogues dubbed into Portuguese -- Hearing Tokugawa officials and Jesuits converse in English back in the 1600's is just so weird!
(3) Regarding the (hi)story itself, I guess that the Japanese authorities were right afterall. The superficiality and arrogance with which the missionaries approached Japan's sophisticated culture, plus the social unrest (i.e. riots) that they caused, provided the Tokugawa authorities with plenty of reasons to act against the Christians the way they did -- Sure enough, it was brutal, but hey, how did the Catholics deal with those whom they called "heretics"? Same treatment: incarceration, torture, annihilation. At least, Christians in Japan were offered an opportunity to same themselves by a simple act of 絵踏み, while heretics in Europe were just wiped out, often times even if they abjured. When you look at the events in perspective, the Tokugawa showed much more mercy than their European counterparts.
And where is the genocide of non-Christians by Catholics in European history? It doesn’t exist. You’ve been reading too much popular history brother, read the real stuff.
If Japan would have allowed Christianity to flourish, Japanese history, culture, language would all have been destroyed. Just like it was for the Inca and Aztecs in the America's. Thankfully the Japanese were too wise to allow that to happen.
@@sammcpeak6854 I sincerely hope you’re being sarcastic, if you’re not, I’m genuinely curious and concerned about what you consider “the real stuff”.
I don't know if you just watched this clip but if so that would explain your ignorance. Stepping on the fumie did not save a Japanese Christian from suffering. It was a trick just to demoralize others who had not yet stepped. Later on Andrew Garfield's character is telling Japanese hanging in the pit to apostatize but they already had, the Japanese government just wasn't done torturing them to get what they wanted from the priest. It's a weird ignorance exhibited by both yourself and the Japanese government of this time to blame the government torturing the Japanese of the priests rather than the ones actually doing the torturing. The most ironic bit is that they told the priests to step on the fumie to save the Japanese Christians and yet what happens after Rodriguez steps on the fumie? He becomes a government agent helping the Japanese to track down more Japanese Christians and those Christians end up tortured and killed. People like you are useful idiots for evil regimes.
I have little time for this BS narrative of "european" vs the world. I can look into the history of Japan and point out lots of atrocities committed by japanese people. When will people stop 'comparing' cultures in regards to how civilized they are...when we are all humans and history is full of proof of both good and bad deeds from everyone?
このシーンで表現したのは、「宗教とは全く無意味なものである」と感じた。
所詮、土地や国で強弱が変わるようなものでしかないものに何を思えと…
我だったらすぐ転ぶ
無宗教の日本人には理解しにくいね
@@haripota2011 Not being religious and not being Christian are two very different things.
キリストは詳しくないけど懺悔を聞いていたら、神を信じる事ができずに懺悔するようなことをした内容を言っている。そこから、キリストの神の存在立場ってそういうものかな。とも思う。
キリスト様は、我々を救ってくださった。
キリストは第２回最後審判を行う為、産まれたそうです。☺️
一神教はトラブルの種
日本人は傲慢です。日本の高齢化は罰です。
あなたはあなたの偽りの神に救いを見つけることはありません。
Ioannis Polemarkhos こういう風に自分が正しくて普通の人たちが間違えていると決めつける宗教家が問題事や争いに積極的で本当の平和とは逆の事をしているとよくわかるいい映画だった
@@ioannispolemarkhos7364 日本人を傲慢と決めつけるコイツに裁きを
@@ioannispolemarkhos7364
お、そうだな。キリストの名で先住民を殺して回って奴隷に仕立てあげた宗教はさぞご立派だろうよ。
@@ioannispolemarkhos7364
十字軍についてなんか言ってみろよ。
The missionaries did not, with all due respect, convert people by force ie sword like the Muslims did. They preached the gospel peacefully of Jesus, a Jewish Rabbi whom advocated forgivness, mercy and charity to the poor, widows, orphans, disabled and other great teachings. Though the way of life in Japan with Buddhism and Shinto was fine as is. I remember some Japanese emperors, rulers and dynasty's were friendly to Christians. This inquisition in Japan was for political motives as well, not just preserving a way of life. Many Christians I know also practice Biddhism.
The Jesuit missionaries didn't use force when they were powerless, but the Christians killed and massacred to convert large parts of pagan Europe throughout history. Just read up about the crusades in the Baltic. The Catholics also regularly slaughtered "heretics" in Europe, such as in France or the Spanish inquisition.
I wonder why Christians committed so many massacres against native Americans then. Must've just been for fun
*stares in Saxon*
剣を使って人々を改宗させたのは他でもないキリスト教だろ
神なんて存在しない
大体江戸時代の侍がこんな語学堪能な訳ねえだろ！
時代も国も、星さえも問わず、みんな英語ペラペラで当たり前というハリウッドのお約束に噛みついても仕方ない。笑
その点メル・ギブソンの『パッション』は、内容はともかく英語一切なしで通すという気概があった。
映画では英語だけど一応ポルトガル語っていう設定。
沈黙の舞台は1637の島原の乱後でポルトガルとの通商は1639まで続いてたから長崎にはポルトガル語話せる侍がかなりいたはず、原作遠藤周作だからその辺の時代考証はしっかりしてる。
@@デュパンO ならポルトガル語でやれと言いたい
@@嫌韓太郎-p7c だよな、まあ俳優がアメリカ人だから興行的にはやむを得ない所だろう。
@@嫌韓太郎-p7c 日本でも外国を舞台にしたアニメとか結構あるけどみんな日本語喋ってたよ？
ユードンアンダステンドて、あなたは、理解していない、なのでは？
だから、「そうではない」って字幕であってるやん。
ヨハネの黙示録
フリーメイソンがいる
イエス様 死にます
残念なのは浅野の英語があまりうまくないということだけだよ
全能の神の２大宗教が歴史上何時も戦争していますけど？
エルカンターレ
宇宙創造神
エルカンターレ
モンサントイルミナティ 幸福の方ですかね？
エロカンターレ