I love how simply raw this movie was. No magic, no miracles, no prophecies like how many christian movies portray god. Instead, the plot and conflict is driven by men and women struggling with faith; like how it really is.
@Doge di Amalfi that's funny considering a lot of whats x-men is pulled from Christian themes. Professor X using Cerebro to reach the lost mutants. Magneto taking a third of the mutants to join his brotherhood. Apocalypse and his 4 horsemen.
@Doge di Amalfi I like this comment of what this guy said from the final part of the film where the main character steps on the image of Christ. "I believe that in this scene we are shown the final part of the retelling of Jesus's life. The protagonist comes bearing the Christian faith, is betrayed for money (just like Judas) and in this scene we see death. While in Jesus's times many protected themselves from physical harm, here we see a totally different type of death, death of the ego. Throughout the movie, the protagonist disregards those who are not of strong faith and acts with a 'holier-than-thou' attitude, especially towards Kichichiro. He constantly compares himself to Jesus and believes that he should die like Jesus, with strong faith and this is where he misses the mark. Jesus died for others and it was not his simple stance on faith but his love for humanity that brought him to the cross. The protagonist's ego, not his body, is what he wants to protect. The belief that he is special and holy due to his resistance to the Japanese. And finally, in this scene, he sacrifices his most valuable part of him, the only thing he truly cared for and protected, his faith, to save countless lives of his followers at a great cost to himself. He is then given a new life, a 'resurrection' of sorts. " So if there were some Christians out there pissed off at the fact he proceeded with apostasy, he did exactly as Christ would have done, choose the lives of many at great cost to himself. you kind of sound like the holier than thou type to me.
@@leandrocarabajal1633what era are we talkin? I agree that hollywood since the 00s has fallen off a bit off a cliff but there are so many excellent movies from back in the day. And this film is personal to one of the last living greats from that era. Even if you didnt care for it you have to admit it was written, directed, and acted with a passion rarely seen in cinemas these days
Not to be that guy, but I think that's he whole point. There was a lot that they felt was being forced upon them and changing their ways. They took that very personally, since culture means so much to so many. They wanted to return the relentless push they felt. At least, that's how I looked at it, I could be very wrong.
@Afqwa i would say the metaphors are actually very relevant. Mountains & rivers can be moved but mans nature cannot be moved. In other words, allowing yourself to suffer and die for a materialistic notion of martydom is pointless, because the purity of faith is beyond materialism. The Buddhist monk was not simply saying, back off and get out of our country, he was also trying to help the padre see why his thinking of preaching/converting was fundamentally flawed. Great film, im glad Scorsese had the courage to show both sides of the argument
They were fighting colonialism. And colonialism spreads thru the faith. After seeing what colionialism has done for the world I don’t blame the Japanese
@@siddharthnair1580 after what japan did to China and South Korea. Japan was the biggest colonizer in the east and I know whataboutery won't take us anywhere but just saying
Atheist here, I really liked this movie. It's definitely thought provoking, as it gives a nuanced perspective on the topic, rather than pushing an agenda. Really makes you rethink the way we view faith and religion in general
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you're looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money... but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my converts go now, that will be the end of it - I will not look for you, I will not pursue you... but if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you... and I will kill you.
They took away the Holy Spirit my friend, you don’t worship a God who doesn’t answer , but a supernatural , Jesus. Clearly said I am not leaving alone but I will sent the Spirit of truth . Read the book of Acts of the Bibble
I truly cannot tell Liam Neeson’s character believes what he is saying or is simply terrified of being punished further. Amazing acting from the master.
Force and violence will destroy all love and happiness regardless of the circumstances, no matter what childish wishful thinking or futile pleading with the utterly indifferent universe you engage in. All the "faith", "acceptance", "enlightenment" and "love" in the world won't lessen the pain of the fire as it sears your flesh, or calm the horrific nightmare of being mutilated, eviscerated or beheaded.
You cannot convert a person to a faith. You can only present them with what you know, and allow them to make their own decision based on what they believe. Simply saying you're a Christian, doesn't make you one. I've seen non-believers act with more morals than baptized Christians and I've see baptized Christians act more immoral than non-believers. To be Christian is in the way you act, treat and talk to others. Not because you simply show up on time every Sunday morning and belong specific church or group.
What you're saying is not necessarily true at all unless you're a Catholic, Orthodox or another denomination similar to it. Protestants believe in faith alone, meaning that only through true faith alone will you achieve salvation. The way you act is merely a consequence of what your faith is. Someone who has personally truly accepted Jesus Christ into their life and who has a continuous relationship with Him would never act overwhelmingly immoral because through his faith he will act good. These Christians you talk about might be baptized but they never truly accepted Jesus Christ in their hearts if they continued to live a sinful live. Atleast this is the protestant point of view.
CivicGuard I see what you mean. But, modern Christians are generally pretty laid back in terms of salvation through belief. Most Christians, I know at least, ignore probably about 90% of the Bible. Only following Jesus’s teachings. Many I know say even Jews and Muslims go to heaven if they are good people. Which makes no sense in comparison to scripture. Most Christians seem to be very unwilling to condemn others just because of which faith or denomination they choose. But this is all just anecdotal.
See Cha It’s an interesting point you have. But, I have a question. What say you to the Teutonic order? And the northern crusades. Poland and Lithuania were converted by the sword. Pagans were killed if they did not accept Catholicism. Would you say that’s real faith? Or just them saying that to avoid death? I don’t know the answer. But I do know that over time Lithuania and Poland did eventually overwhelmingly accept Catholicism. How would that work exactly? When it was originally forced upon them under threat of death.
@@Rokaize This is true and that is why we see a lot more immorality within Christian communities. Since people become less dependant on faith they become more immoral as a consequence. They forget that one of the clearest messages of the Bible is that only through Christ could one ever come to the Father.
Yes you got it right and I agree with you there, like the apostles did before they were preaching to the people but the difference between the apostles and to the modern Christians is they are not forcing people to the faith even Jesus do same thing as well he let people decide themselves if they didn't like his teaching he let them.
this scene is so amazing. there acting is incredible. i can’t imagine how it must feel, to see someone who mentored you in the Faith. now convincing you to change your beliefs.
From what I hear, the entire part of Liam Neeson’s character explaining the Japanese religion was all improvised. It completely changed the intended message, and for me, was this movie’s redeeming quality.
I'm not Christian but this movie moved me as much as the comment section disgusted me. It baffles me how people can be so vindictive and be so ignorant to the plight of others.
lol what, everyone is saying stuff like "obi wan a true Jedi.... He sounds like a Jedi " "Such an underrated film. One of the best in the last decade in my opinion " "He has a particular set of skills " "How can you even hate Japanese food " "Taken 5: They took my religion, and I want it back! " "Liam became a weaboo and Garfield is trying to save him " and your trying to start shit dickhead
I agree, it is a rough movie. It gives an interesting perspective of the meaning of religion in a culture and in a personal sense. I really enjoyed it.
Marvin Martin I think he means rough in its candid and contentious presentation of difficult concepts. It’s rough because it’s difficult to confront such ideas.
What he means, and I also share this opinion, is that it's a tough movie to watch because of the immense suffering and psychological torture the protagonists and the persecuted Christians go through over the course of a nearly 3-hour movie, with no one to save them and no magical solutions in sight.
Although American, I have lived in Japan for over 20 years. Japanese not only practice Buddhism, but also Shinto. In my family, we have both Buddhist and Shinto altars in our house, and visit both Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines. Shinto has gods, but most Japanese don't know the names of these gods. They are only "kami-sama": God. Likewise, Japanese doesn't really have a plural form. If I have one pencil, I have "enpitsu". If I have two pencils, I still have "enpitsu". So whether they are thinking of one god or many gods, the form is still "Kami-sama". The Japanese Emperor opposed Christianity for two reasons. One, at this time, the military was gaining great power, even greater power than the Emperor himself, and in Japan, the Emperor's power comes from Shinto, as the Emperor was considered to be descended from the Shinto goddess of the Sun, Amaterasu. But Shinto does not oppose the existence of other religions. This alone was not enough to raise the government's opposition. At this time, European powers were using Christianity as a way to gain control in non-Christian countries. Christianity was as much a political threat as a threat to traditional Japanese social customs. Once people were organized in churches, they would be used to oppose the government. The military was afraid that Christianity could likewise be used in Japan to draw power away from the Emperor (and themselves). I believe this is ultimately why they tried to destroy early Christianity.
@@tulkdog No. Christians simply got better at hiding. There aren't many Christians in Japan (only about 1%, though actually I was surprised it was that many!) However, there are churches, Catholic schools and so on, and have been ever since Christianity was brought to Japan.
“It is not necessary to win anyone over one side to another when there is so much to share.” Moments later, “I’ve been told to get you to abandon the faith.”
That is a contradiction, but in fairness to the Japanese, the Portuguese were in their country telling them that unless they converted to Catholicism (which meant also adopting Western ways), they'd burn in hell. They were trying to get him to renounce his faith to discourage the spread of a foreign religion in their country; they didn't otherwise care what religion he believed in; they weren't trying to get him to convert to Buddhism. And let's be real here: how do you think the Portuguese would have reacted to hundreds of Japanese Buddhist missionaries in Portugal? I think the Inquisition would've had themselves a real field day torturing them all till they converted to Catholicism.
@@valmarsiglia "They weren't trying to get him to convert to Buddhism". Yet they forced him to write books that debunked Christianity, they forced him to break his celibacy vows and they even stripped off his name. What was left to share? Nothing, they won him over to their side.
The part of the discussion starting at 4:09 doesn't get as much discussion as other important themes in the movie. I believe it is a very pertinent issue-especially for universalising religions such as Catholicism. Even if we use the same names, seemingly speak the same language, how can we be sure we're talking about the same thing? This can be especially important with the central (or at least more payed-attentioned-to) theme of apostasy, particularly with how it's carried out. Garfield is pressured into desecrating an image fashioned by unfamiliar people (the fumi-e: the plaque depicting Jesus), made according to how they imagine these Christian ideas are meant to be represented-and made for the purpose of being trampled on! It just seems that one of the biggest things to take from this movie is how elusive expression is.
Yeah I thought the people that have seen the movie just got the wrong message, like how religion is bad because it brings suffering and all that blabla, but instead the movie focuses on how beliefs varies from one another, from different cultures, even when we're preaching the same thing its likely that we'll not get the same thing out of it, because the roots aren't there for Japan as they are in Europe. For the Japanese, Rodrigues wasn't just a preacher of God's word, he was the embodiment of their faith, he was the word of God, and they needed him because otherwise their faith would die. You can say they were following his teachings, but they didn't follow Christianity as a religion, and this is what Rodrigues failed to understand, cause he thought that trampling on christ face meant the same thing for him and everyone else, not realizing that they wouldn't do it because HE wouldn't, not because it's christ face. And that is what Ferreira is trying to tell him here.
@@sebdrum92 Yeah, there was a specific scene where one of the asked Garupe/Driver about paradise and the question caught him off guard and he had to try to answer this person.
Yes, but Buddhism eventually gained acceptance when it coexisted and syncretized with existing traditions rather than attempt to supplant them like Catholicism did. Even the word Francis Xavier used to communicate the closest equivalent to the Abrahamic God (Dainichi) was an already existing concept which syncretized the ultimate enlightened form of the Gautama Buddha with the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu, and early converts and religious authorities in all likelihood believed he was merely trying to communicate yet another facet of this concept. It was only when he realized his “converts” were not supplanting their old beliefs but merely incorporating what he had preached into their existing practices that he stopped using the term, and when local authorities grew less tolerant of him proselytizing an actual rival religion.
He lived the exact opposite as Christ did. Jesus sacrificed His body so He wouldn't have to give up His faith. Rodrigus sacrificed his faith so he wouldn't have to give up his body.
@@TheJayTexas a Catholic, this movie is a debate, and even Endo has self-debates. The Catholic view is that to die a martyr is the Christian way. The world can have my body; my spirit belongs to God. Yet on the other hand, there must be a way for secret Christians to publicly renounce the faith yet continue to try to spread the faith in secret. Who is right in the case of Ferrera and Rodrigues? It is a debate.
"Some people seem to mistake Objectivity for Negativity, and wishful-thinking for Positivity." "Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Yet another pseudo intellectual follower of Nietzsche. Assuming I am from the U.S., assuming what religion I believe in. People like you quote and believe Nietzsche but in reality its people like you that don't even know Nietzsche or his ideas. You champion Nietzsche as this anti religions figure that somehow makes you superior to a theist when you prattle off one of his quotes but in reality if you lived in a society where God was really dead and Nietzsche's new morality was cultivated you would be a victim almost immediately. Nietzsche didn't believe in equality or other religious altruistic beliefs that people like you benefit from but feel superior to. Sorry Blah b, you would be one of the subjugated Nietzsche mentions, along with all the other NEET overweight atheists who haven't a clue.
6 лет назад+1
+Dr. Death So you whine about assumptions, then start making assumptions about me. Hilarious. All I did was observe that you cry about Nietszsche because you don't like your religious prattling being dismissed; you expected it to be taken seriously. Also your religion has no altruistic beliefs. Don't try to hijack basic human decency for your own religion. Also we live in socieities where 'god is dead', all of us do no matter what we think of religion. No gods exist, so how can there be a society in which any gods exist?
Dr. Death Haha, none of you apparently have a clue what Nietzsche was saying.... When Nietzsche talks about the “death of God” and the superman he isn’t talking about the death of God as a being or force of nature. He’s talking about the rise in orthodoxy and the death of individualism. "Of all that is written I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood and thou wilt find that blood is spirit." "...and once spirit was God." -Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra I suggest you all do a little more research and a little less mudslinging.
Buddha originally did not intend to be immortalized as a deity. However as many generations passed, other religions and what not prompted Buddhist followers to tweak the details on who or what buddha is.
I imagine Jesus would have felt the same way. What confuses the shit out of me is ...Jesus was a Jew. A devout Jew. He didn’t start a new religion, and throughout the four testaments, he’s referred to consistently as Rabbi. I was raised Christian, but if you really immerse yourself in history, philosophy and reason, it’s easy to see all the different religions of the world as branches growing from the same tree. Religion means nothing without compassion. If we could agree on compassion as a basis, and agree to disagree on the specifics, what a world that would be.
@@RustinChole Jesus said to follow him. He fulfilled the promises of the old testament. The veil was torn. "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice"
@@RustinCholeChristians wanted to differentiate themselves from jews since they didn’t believe in jesus was the messiah. So they changed the name of their faith
@@RustinCholeHe said he Was the way, the Truth and the Life, a little blasphemous don’t you think if a teacher would say HE is the truth and life and without him there is no salvation
@@YTWgamer Fun fact: it's been calculated that religion has been responsible for only 7% of all recorded wars in history. Every other war was fought due to secular reasons, so get the fuck outta here. Humans will find easier ways and excuses to kill each other, religion or not.
That was actually one of the statements that I disagreed with in this clip the most because I understand that there are things worth not knowing about in this universe. We are limited in our time here and pointless pursuits are more over distractions of things that we know we ought to do as human beings. ....also Neutrality gains you nothing in the face of all that information you seek, you'd be setting yourself up for failure, if you can't be swayed by any sides that claim truth, then you aren't truly looking for truth, but instead are looking for a selfish desire to be satisfied, which causes me to believe that in searching for gaining/sharing information is ultimately self-negating.
Wise words are often ignored by people who have taken a side. I was raised Christian and watched zero hearts moved week after week and none of Christ’s teachings followed. Christ was very clear that to be close to god you should do it in your room alone. Sitting through a sermon doesn’t make you a Christian-acts speak louder than beliefs to god, if there is one. Which at this point in my life, after seeing the world and losing a lot of loved ones, I just can’t see as plausible.
@@denniswilkerson5536 you’re calling the pursuit of understanding other beliefs and perspectives besides your own “a waste of time”? For Pete’s sake there are other beliefs besides Catholicism, which is just one sect of belief in Christianity. To say none of them are worth learning about is just doing yourself a disservice. Claiming that only one religion can have the truth is just silly
@@jorgepitkill7412 not true. Just making a point. You know Jesus HATED assumptions. Like the one you just made.🙄you know, I don’t think you know the Bible as well as you think you do!😂🤷🏻♂️
What I find interesting about this movie is that it shows us that the buddhist inquisition was just as brutal as the christian versions. I guess that at their core people are the same no matter where you go.
Brutal in methods yes. Brutal in numbers no. Christianity did not take much root in Japan outside of the fringe. The European Inquisition has killed a lot. That's not to mention the Crusades.
Not really though. The European Inquisition's ultimate purpose was to ensure that everyone was Catholic, and as noted by another poster below, they have the much higher body count. The purpose of the Japanese version wasn't to convert everyone to Buddhism, its purpose, whether right or wrong, was to uproot a foreign religion. However, Japan never had a one-religion rule as in European countries; there were two main religions practiced there: Buddhism (itself of course a foreign import) and Shintoism, plus one was free not to be religious at all. One could conceivably practice whatever religion one wanted to in private so long as one didn't upset the social order. Compared to that relative religious tolerance in Japan, how do you think European countries would have reacted if some Japanese went to, say, Portugal and tried to open a Buddhist temple? Or tried to convert Christians to Buddhism? What do you think would have happened if some people in Portugal in those days decided that they'd like to try a different religion? There's not much equivalence between Buddhism and Christianity: Christianity, like Islam, by definition has an all-consuming nature. "We're the only true religion; everyone else is unwittingly worshiping Satan, therefore we should rule the world." Buddhism, on the other hand, just doesn't see reality in those totalizing terms.
@@milesedgeworth132 3 years late but I will tell you. When you say European Inquisition what are you talking about? The Church protected natives' rights during colonialism of the Americas. You are mixing up religion with politics. I will also say the Crusades were justified. People always love to bring up how Christians invaded the Holy Land but ignore everything else. You ignore the Muslims attacked Byzantines and other Eastern Christian nations. You also ignore they conquered Spain and went as far as France in the Battle of Tours.
@@valmarsiglia I would like to ask how could one practice whatever religion in private when the Japanese government would torture and massacre them? Buddhism itself was a foreign import but also things such as tea, pottery and many traditions were imported to Japan at the same time as Buddhism. It did not upset the social order because the social order of Japan changed. So, it would seem Japan is relatively tolerant of religion but it is not the case. They had just accepted culture from other Eastern countries. I will agree, Europe would not have allowed it but what did Christians do to those that have other religions? When did Christians in Europe slaughtered hundreds of thousands for their faith. Not war but from massacres. The Spanish Inquisition was not bad as people make it. They were to convert or leave. Torture was not allowed for confessions. Did Japan allow any Christians to leave except for the priests? Buddhism is just used to fit peoples' desires. In the West its secular and in the East its religious but they genocide minorities in the South East now. Christianity is a firm religion. One true religion what is wrong with that? It's become the largest religion in the world and continues to be so. Islam is quite backwards compared to Christianity.
I'll tell you a short story about a Christian English shoe maker. He lived in a small farm town in the mid 18th century. The man made shoes his whole life. When he wasn't making shoes for the towns people, he was reading his Bible, and carving his favorite verses into the walls of his wooden shop. It was not uncommon for people to ask about the verses and have open discussions on God in the man's shop. He converted about a dozen people a year for decades and strengthened the faith of many more Christians that last through his town. One day he got too old and couldn't make shoes as effectively as he use to. So he hired a young teenage orphan to be his apprentice. The boy did the labor intensive work of making the shoes that the old man couldn't. One day a new show making shop was built in town and the old man and his apprentice lost some buisness. The boy was worried so one day he went to the shop and found that they were making shoes much faster than the old man was. However he also saw that that shop cut corners and made their shoes of a lesser quality than the old man. He asked the owner of the shop about it and the man said,"They come back all the quicker when we cut corners my boy!" The boy went back to the old man and was convinced that if they did not start cutting corners they would go out of buisness. The old man stopped his work immediately and went over to his Bible, which was always open on the counter. The old man read his apprentice a verse. "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters" -Colossians 3:23 After reading the verse The old man turned to the boy and said,"One day, I will Die. When I do I will stand before the throne of God and I expect to see every shoe I have ever made, or fixed over the years in a great pile before me. I know God will judge me on my heart's intensions and look to my good work I have down for my fellow man and he will say to me,"Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have served your fellow man well and followed after me all your life. The Kingdom of Heaven is yours for all of Eternity!" The old man continued,"That is why we don't cut corners. It is for the love of God himself! Now you must think for yourself young man. What kind of man are you going to be? Will you be a good man and love your neighbor or will you cheat and swindle your neighbor for some money?" With that the Old man went back to his work making shoes.
but then the man might go broke, lose his shop and the ability to acquire materials to make the shoes, thereby ending his dreams period. It might be ok for him, he's older and has done what he wanted with his life, but the young boy working for him loses his job, maybe hurting his life forever, and will then have to work for the shopkeeper who does cut corners. That's what makes the message of the movie so powerful, its not the priest who's in danger, he's fine with being martyred for his beliefs. It's the people who surround him who are depending on him for their lives that he is forced to either sacrifice for, or have to live knowing they died because of his beliefs.
Finally saw this whole movie today and I will say as a Christian it gave me MUCH to think about in terms of how a Christian responds to suffering. I asked myself what I would have done had I been in Father Rodrigues place.
That's interesting I know I wouldn't have people die for me. It's not even a second thought. To save any life should be the ultimate goal of any religion
The amazing movie brings also an impossible challenge: as Christian, shall save lives of poor people that would die for their Faith, or apostatize saving few lives but dooming the whole religion. Japanese inquisition was definitely smarter then Romans: there's no point in torture someone making him a martyr. Just put him in front of an impossible choice and whatever he chose, you win. That's how Asia survived thousands years. As they say: One Land
It's true, trying to convert a specific culture group into true Christianity took years and even very very delicate leap of faith for that particular group. This is Japanese ethnic that has their own set of religion belief. The movie presents how the Portuguese priests failed to translate the Gospel into Japanese way that is true and correct, thus the Japanese got the distortion of the Christianity faith (the Son of God = the Sun of God, Sun being the God in Japanese religion). This is what the movie claims, through which source, we not given clearly, as history claims various sources differently. Same as Chinese culture when confronted by the Christianity, they (the chinese) were used to worship the 12 heavenly gods so that they would be blessed when the 12 gods are contend with their sacrifices offered in the temple. When Christianity came, the similar old pattern that were used in previous religion were applied onto Jesus Christ, that somehow giving tithe, and offering to God, it has similar system of give and take, like a vending machine based on faith on the luck in their lives. While at the same time the chinese christians most of them don't build true relationship worship with the Trinity God, as true as the early Jews and Romans converts in early Apostles time. Jews, Chinese, and even Japanese, has their own culture religion built and bred around their own set of mythos. Which is the true God, must be able to claim their Godship, thus the losing culture must be willing to abandon their culture-religion background onto the true one. Even God in the Bible sternly warned us to not mix-match beliefs, as reflected on how the Jews were instructed to not weave garments from more than one material, as it is abomination before the LORD. The Japanese distortion of the "sun" of God of Christianity, and basically makes the Portuguese priests as their "deity", is that abomination that God despises. The fact the priests failed to see their error and just failed to notice the abomination they making, just proves it is folly, and their laziness to learn the language themselves, instead depends on the "japanese translator" that never understands the whole Abrahamic religion culture, making the translation of the gospel, into abomination of faith.
@@郑骏豪-x1t Ur absolutely right. Unlike Orthodox missionaries in Alaska who took time learning the language, these Portugese missionaries were lazy fools.
Funny, they're both arguing the exact same point. Just from a different perspective! The one thing they aren't doing, is following their religious values, by tolerating each others differences.
Damnit, you didn't include the rotting tree analogy. That was the best part hands down. A tree will flourish in one soil but rot in another. (something like that)
MIZZKIE that’s actually in scripture. Just learned about that. Those who are true Christians will have good soil, those who deny Christ with every being in their soul will have the very opposite. Can’t plant a fruit tree that will blossom with the fruits of knowledge love and everything else without the seeds growing into good soil. It’s very poetic and true
woahdudette it's not true tho, you honestly think people who don't believe in your concept of god are rotting on the inside and deserve eternal punishment? that is my biggest problem with aberhamic religions and why i decided to leave one, it's so immoral and yet claims it is ruled by a perfectly moral god, when you look at a religion like Christianity and the beliefs in it as a whole, it's extremely immoral and contradictory
@@noire1706 I see you are a staunch Antitheist by the way..... Neil Degrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins..... it seems like you left your previous religion with a little help..... and ended up finding a new one. You've been indoctrinated into the Theo..... Religion of Evolution You claim morality for yourself and your own views, but you portray them as if they were Objective, but you dont even realise you are borrowing from the very religion that you denounce which has an objective moral compass and has an ultimate reference for maintaining that objective moral compass within the confines on it's subject universe. You can't determine for yourself what is right and wrong and portray your feeling as the truth, it's subjective in all forms, and if you believe that there are no *Absolutes* like your buddy Richard Dawkins then there is no Truth, if there is no Absolute Truth, then there is no reference of which you can ground your belief, which means that your belief holds no validity.
@@noire1706 Sounds like baseless Dawkins talking point, but alright. "I'll just call it immoral and contradictory with zero proof and the atheist RUclips sheeple will applaud me" - you
*For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.* Corinthians 1:18. The devil will never come to us openly declaring his identity. Rather, he will do it with those we love. Those we listen to. Listen to the words of Father Farreira (the apostate) "your wasting your time here. nothing grows in this country, it is like a swamp. If the Japanese believed in God, they only believed in a distortion of the gospel."......you could almost be listening to the devil himself. But history tells us it has only been in times of adversity and martyrdom the church of God has flourished.
@@BloodOfYeshuaMessiah What you have there is an unfalsifiable proposition. You should spend some time researching logical fallacies and cognitive biases.
Man I love this conflict. Its like i understand both sides and this is done out of a need of protecting native culture against a religeon that can be used for an invasion by higher powers.
Both sides. Lmao so off mate. You really goign to put the guys crucifying and torturing on the same level as priests tryign to convert people to another religion?
@@IncredibleGoliath the Shimabara rebellion done in a Christian part of Japan was done because their feudal lord raised taxes and worked peasants to death to build another mansion
It's all just about converting. My way is the only way. With such an ultimatum it creates arrogance and stubbornness because you believe that your faith is the only one. How? What gives you sole claim?
This statement could be used for any religion out there and to be honest for nothing at all. I find myself torn to pieces because i was raised in the south and trust me from the time i opened my eyes until night you see God. I always ask questions and to a point i was told to not ask anything at all just obey because it is the right way to live. I follow my instincts from day to day and i live a good life but when it comes to religion i am in so many pieces.
+sinfulways1492 Religion is built on fear of the Unknown. Be good for goodness sake not because you are going to get a pat on the head at the end of it.
At least we Christians are not denying that Christianity is an exclusive religion. And we believe that there is no human being on earth without a sin.. Everyone has sinned and as a sinner if you try to make up for your sin by doing good works without doing it in the name of Jesus the son of God, you can only fool humans and yourself that your sin has been outweighed by the good works you do... Only by accepting Jesus, Jesus can outweigh your sin (it doesn't matter how small your sin is, a sin is a sin, stealing a piece of gum is stealing, a white lie is a lie, exaggerating is lying) The Christian God is a righteous judge and punishes any sinner who doesn't accept Jesus but at the same time forgives ANY sinner if they accept Jesus. it's a very fair deal for the sinners that we all are.
+factfeeder777 so in order for our sin to be forgiven an innocent man had to be tortured to death and bleed out on a wooden cross? You serve a bloodthirsty and cruel God. A God that saddles you with guilt and strict codes that go against your basic nature. A nature that he allows to exist so that you are in a constant state of struggle and guilt. Wake up from your illusions and accept the fact that one day you will return to oblivion.
+factfeeder777 you Christians are so terrified of the death of your Ego you accept any promise of an afterlife. Even if it is delivered by a God of War like Yahweh.
I might have to give this movie a go, im getting strong "Shogun" vibes. The book by James Clavell. That book wonderfully played religion (Protestant, Catholic, Shinto, Buddhism) into the main story to were the religious beliefs of the characters were sort of their own characters themselves and could twist and change. The Japanese and Portuguese both viewed each other as "savages" and in a lot of ways you agreed with both sides.
Excellent acting from all 3 actors in these two scenes! Particularly, Andrew Garfield in the 2nd scene ... losing admiration for his mentor, his persistence, and his vulnerability ... A sad, challenging, but rewarding scene for those who reflect on the complex human emotions depicted in this scene.
Martin Scorsese currently identifies as a 'lapsed Catholic.' But, as this movie shows, he is clearly psychologically tortured by his own thoughts, actions, his own apostasy, renunciation of Christianity, his divorces, and more. Many of his films are odes to ubiquitous, pervasive Catholic guilt. I was diagnosed with PTSD years ago from a horrifically asphyxiating childhood with myriads of abysmal things, but years of childhood Christian indoctrination, inculcation and proselytizing were one of the biggest contributors. I can sympathize. And yes, the film is also based off of the Shusaku Endo novel 'Silence.'
Seeing what Christianity did to many native and indigenous people all around the world, the Japanese were well justified uprooting Christianity in their country
which makes god an asshat for forcing people to be tortured for something as petty as making up a lie to save your family. If I was god (it's a thought experiment, dont get triggered), I would say "go ahead, for fuck sake, STEP ON MY FACE YOU IDIOT, SAVE THE OTHERS!"
There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend. John 15: 13 That is what Rodrigues did when he stepped on the tumor. He trained as Jesuit to devote himself to Christ. He would have been honored to die a martyr for Christ; but when he realized that others were suffering for it he sacrificed all of that to save them.
This is why I love movies by guys like Scorcese and Tarantino. They write such great dialogue. Something that is missing from a lot of films these days. Quality dialogue does something to the brain, it stimulates it, makes it think. I love that about some movies.
I cannot possibly see how you'd connect a religious dialogue scene between two priests to dialogue in a Tarantino movie. He has written nothing even remotely similar to this in his entire career.
"The Japanese only believed in their distortion of our gospels so they did not believe at all, they've never believe." - This is such a great line and point in how stories can be distorted simply through the difference in culture and language. And it's back and forth between broken languages, not just from English to another language but vice versa.
That line by Liam Neeson sums up perfectly the strict cultural mindset of the Japanese instinct of trying to keep out foreign influences “This country is a swamp! Nothing grows here! Plant a sapling here and the roots rot!” in other words Japan has historically been a nation highly resistant to change, not immune to it mind you, as history has clearly proven. Immune and resistant are two different things. Nevertheless considering how quickly they reverted back to militarism during the 1930s it is extremely likely that they never would’ve even become the current form of democracy that they are now if America hadn’t forced it on them at the end of World War II. If you want to see an anime film that explores the political side of that mindset, about the difficulty of change, a film that seeks to analyze it and understand it better then I highly recommend the 1999 masterpiece Jinroh: The Wolf Brigade by Matsume Shiro, the genius behind the 1995 cyber punk film Ghost In The Shell. Jinroh is a self critique about Japanese society set in the early postwar era during the the late 50s and early 60s, seen through the eyes of an increasingly depressed and disillusioned member of the Japanese special forces. The director meant the film as an exploration of the pack mentality and it’s effect on conformity in his home country and how he believes it directly affects the Japanese psyche. The film is ultimately the director’s way of articulating his frustration regarding his belief that “Japan is an overly conformist society, incapable of change even when times warrant it.” If you ever get a chance to watch it I highly recommend it. Gives you a really good insight into his perspective on how he views his society.
It’s an overall theme with East Asian countries to be highly conservative and resistant to change. In Asia, ancestors are honored and even deified. This is in sharp contrast to the west, especially post Enlightenment where the ancestor is viewed as ignorant and primitive. That’s the reason the west was able to advance far more technologically over the east. The east resisted change while the west welcomed and even desired it.
@@flowerchild8450 Exactly. People try to exalt the novel and denigrate the traditional, yet time and time again, history proves that tradition is prosperity. Not liberal materialism. Japan is a good example but let's also look to Pharonic Egypt. A civilisation that stood for more time than any other, a sum of 3000 years, did so because it valued tradition, held fast to those traditions, and nearly eradicated from history the one reformer/heretic they ever had.
Minutemen Revival I think Japan is the example of the opposite. They gave up much of their traditional values in order to advance economically, technologically, and militarily. For example, the entire samurai caste was removed in favor of western style military system and industrialization replaced traditional artisanship. In fact, the reason Japan was able to defeat China and become the main dominant power in Asia was because they adopted western technologies and military strategies much earlier than China, who only began to reform their centuries old military equipments after their defeat during the Opium Wars, where their naval and land forces were utterly destroyed by the better equipped and better trained British forces. If Japan had done the same as China and held on to their conservative values, they would have ended up the same as China, split up and controlled by foreign powers.
@@gamer7916 They haven't let go of their traditional culture though. The structure of a military has little impact on the minds of the people, but culture does. They haven't submitted fully to the demands of neoliberal globalism. They let the US advance them technologically after the war but they're not so far up the wazoo that their populace is
This movie describes the failure of Christianity in Japan. But that is not the whole truth. Many missionaries were indeed successful, and still are today. Whereas those who died for the faith are at peace with God.
the thought "believe in him or else die and burn in hell forever" is wrong. It's more of like "Believe in Me so you can be saved from Satan" God wants us to choose Him, take Him and believe in Him so we can be saved. Ever since Adam and Eve, God wanted Adam/Eve/Man to choose Him by placing the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden. The devil forced/tricked man to eat the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God doesn't force people to choose Him, if He does then He is not God at all. Satan is condemned to Hell, everything that wishes to go with Satan will surely go with him. It's not a condition but a choice.
And what is deemed success in the eyes of Christians? When they assimilate everyone to see god only the way they do? Biggest fallacy, historically riding the coat tails of imperialism these missionaries were. Let others be and realize there are many ways to practice faith. Blinded by the light.
Japanese and Korean Christians are not the same as western ones, I see these mental cases around new years with their yellow signs telling us we are going to hell. Its one cult among many over there.
Because Christianity inherently wishes to become the dominant religion in whatever population it inhabits. That was the nuance in the movie. Western religions don't share. Eventually, Christianity would have been used to usurp and destabilize Japan. The resulting peasant revolt would then 'westernize' the nation towards European values, and thus weaken Japan towards capitulation to a Nation. The Emperor, along with anyone else that plays the game of Diplomacy realizes this.
@@carlosgonzalez2706 thats not true, it never sought that in India, not in China either, or in post war Japan. You're repeating a prejudice that puts Christians in danger in many parts of the world. In many parts of the world people wanted missionaries to come to convert them, e.g. New Zealand.
@@denverbritto5606 Right, never. Just ignore; The Moplah rebellion The Shimabara rebellion The Taiping Rebellion The Morisco Rebellion The Muslim rebellion of 1862 And on and on. But sure, NEVER have religions been used to subdue and replace bodies of government.
@@denverbritto5606 Religion has always been called the opiod of the masses. A tool used by those in power to quell and control those too poor or too uneducated to know any better. Jesus may have had a message of piece and pacifism, but Christian Leaders have one of subservience and domination. The Abrahamic god, like all gods are the first memes. Social glue giving large swathes of otherwise disconnected people a common ground.
@@carlosgonzalez2706 the european christians were anti-taiping rebellion, moplah had nothing to do with christianity, shimabara was in response to anti-christian persecution, you're clutching at straws mate. The others are all to do with islam as well. Of course religion was sometimes a tool to gain power, but it was often not. Christian principles have become universal principles, easy with that opiate talk Karl Marx.
I was disappointed the movie didn't go into more of a debate between Christianity and Buddhism, whether one needed a god/gods, and whether salvation/liberation was achieved through correct faith and deeds of righteousness or through the extinction of personal cravings. In short, I wish there was more of a debate between Abrahamic and Eastern religion in the movie.
The Japanese inquisitor didn't believe that religion was evil so Buddhism vs Christianity isn't important to the movie. He believed that Christianity would be used as a catalyst for foreign invasion. Basically thought that a Hawaii scenario would play out. Eventually America and other nations did bring the Navy but they only cared about extortion and not religion.
In the end, they have only themselves to blame for trying to force their culture upon another. Because religion serves as power and controls the masses.
That first encounter is so riveting. "Our Buddha is a being which man can become, something greater than himself". This is where Padre had no response because he doesn't understand the Buddhist faith. Once an individual realises that materialistic desire only causes suffering and pain, he can embark on a personal journey through prayer and meditation to overcome the illusion of material reality. This is the point at which Nirvana and self-liberation is reached. Its an entirely personal commitment. What the Christian missionaries were doing is clinging to their illusions, of believing they are doing Gods work of preaching the gospel and they will get rewarded with heavenly eternal life in the afterlife , the more people they "save". It might appear as a noble cause but ultimately it is selfish and "materialistic" which brings themselves along with the peasants, pain and suffering. Its also ironic padre retorted that a Buddha can die therefore he is not the creator but didnt Jesus die also?
This scene is so much better in the film than the book. The Interpreter in the book is a two-dimensional Buddhist supremacist who indignantly spouts Mahayana theology without understanding any of it. His film counterpart is much smarter and much more equanimitous...and all the more menacing for it.
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." - Tao Te Ching The interpreter's own realistic experience and intuition had understood what powerful illusions Rodrigues lived in. Yet the interpreter didn't set much of an example himself either since he was a cruel enforcer for the Shogunate (Like a political commissar). The striking contrast between the two is which reality the other has accepted, but neither knew their true faith, which I think is ones' own identity.
If they didn't want to apostatize, was finding a way back to Europe; thereby not having to convert their faith; not an option for Rodriguez and the other priests. This movie makes it so that APOSTASY or EXECUTION are the only options once your in Japan.
This movie is quite interesting and convincing their deeds are truly evil but it's also describing their cause as convincing and it's not just irrational savagery. What he and inquisitor said actually i agree with them i'm also east asian🇰🇷 which persecuted catholic by our former dynasty. And i have buddhist parents and i'm an atheist. Consequently christianity didn't bloom in Japan forever. And what belief so called christianity looks distorted when we see it honestly. And buddhism ppl here believe it bcuz we have our passion and culture in it. We have our own creed. Of course their persecution was unbearably horrible but isn't that happening all around the world? In europe catholics persecuted protestantism, england persecuted every other christianity but anglican church, arabs persecuted christians even the level of brutality differs, spain persecuted islam and judaism. Vietnam persecuted Islam and hinduism. It's the challenge when two different world and two different truths collide. No matter what agenda goes travel, it will happen. The point is how we act when the challenge comes. There's no answer
The Japanese are still like this, they aren't that dogmatic about religion. I tried to explain Christianity to a Japanese friend and it sounded absolutely bizarre to him because just about everything has a kami over there. The idea of an exclusive religion was beyond his experience.
@@matthewkearney9044 New information is just old information presented to new people, and even everything you know now has been taught to you one way or another, if the religious can be indoctrinated into believing in one thing, then so can you. You can even be indoctrinated that religion is terrible concept too and that you should stay away from it.... we're all teachers in our own way, but only few have the best intentions.... it's not truly indoctrination though when you read that some of these religions have verses in their passages that encourage them to seek truth.
@@denniswilkerson5536 Yes, it is indoctrination when you take your impressionable child to religious ceremonies and raise them in that environment. You claiming I was indoctrinated to dislike religion is incorrect. I eventually realized how contradictory, factually incorrect, and immoral religions are on my own. Do you have evidence for the existence of your immoral god?
"arrogant" "which means he'll eventually fall" meaning a less arrogant priest would not apostatize. Also means the inquisitor has met priests that refuse to apostatize. The inquisitor really did understand the priests culture more than they did his. The inquisitor isn't torturing the priests for their faith. He's torturing them for their arrogance.
Question for the history buffs, despite father Fierra saying he was to make Rodriguez give up the faith, was he correct when he talked about the Japanese believing in the distortion of their religion (about the sun etc) or part of the deception
There were distortions because the earliest missionaries unfamiliar with Japanese language and religion asked the Japanese if they had a single god with three aspects, and when told that this was called "Dainichi" didn't realize the Japanese were referring to a specific Buddha. So the Jesuits initially preached that they were spreading the message of Dainichi, and the Japanese at first thought the Jesuits were followers of an unknown Buddhist religion from India due to both the confusion of terms for their god and the presence of Indian sailors on the ships that brought the missionaries to Japan. When the Jesuits realized what was happening they quit saying Dainichi and started using "Deus" instead. The "son" and "sun" mixup is inaccurate because while the words sound identical in English, in Portuguese and in Japanese they sound nothing alike. "Filho" and "sol" in Portugese, "musuko" and "taiyo" in Japanese. The book "Deus Destroyed" is a great read on the rise and fall of Christianity in Japan.
@@TheHozoneLayerIt was actually an unintended pun because Dainichi in Japanese is read as 大日, which literally translates to “great sun”. The term is used to refer to both Vairocana, the dharmakaya (essentially the “true form”) of the Gautama Buddha, as well as the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu. Crucially, it was generally understood that Vairocana and Amaterasu were two interpretations or aspects of the same entity, and that there was no contradiction in the same name being used for both. Like you mentioned, it was initially believed that the Jesuits were preaching of yet another aspect of Dainichi that did not conflict with the existing understanding. When Liam Neeson’s character points to the sun, he is both referring to the “Sun of God” (Dainichi as the sun goddess Amaterasu) and the “Son of God” (Dainichi as Deus or Jesus).
The Japanese Actor *I don't know his name but seen him in other films* Bears A Very Striking Resemblance To Pat Morita *in his younger days* If They Were To Make A Karate Kid Prequel Origin Spin Off Of Mr. Miyagi I Could Totally See This Actor Playing Him.
I understand Nelson's point of view how Japan sees it. But Romans has been in it first, India, Turkey, every gentile was an Alien to the gospel. Japan is no excuse
Is it right to try and convert them, though? If they're already content in the religion they already have, what right do missionaries have to spread their own? Especially when it has already led to social upheaval and suffering.
@@wellthatwasdaft Sure. But, evidently not all Japanese are content enough with Buddhism. There's a slew of Christian Japanese in the film. It's also worth considering that an apartheid state is only using "stability" as some warped justification for their mass killings, and social control. It's nuanced, which leads to these fruitful discussions I'm seeing about the film. (Not saying the colonialism of the Portuguese is justified, by the way).
@@wellthatwasdaft Um yes? Do you get bent out of shape having Muslims try to preach outside the middle east too? Missionaries have every right to preach. And locals have the right to choose to listen or not. If they are content with their faith and don't wish to change or if they find no personal attachment to the foreign faith, then they can go on about their business.The vast majority of persecuted christians in Japan were Japanese natives. People who willingly converted to Christianity. Their own lords then murdered them for making that choice.
“It is not necessary to bring one side to another when there is so much to share” A major point of the story that everyone seems to miss 🤦♂️ “May God have mercy on you?” “Which God?” The point of this scene is not to illustrate Rodriguez’s strong faith, but to highlight his ignorance and unwillingness to learn. Rodriguez has fallen into the sin of pride. He is too prideful to understand other perspectives, he believes he is a moral authority but in reality he is sacrificing others for his faith. Do you think Jesus would do that or want others to do that in his name? It’s in his humbleness, that he decides to stop the violence in order to save others
As an european raised, i had no clue about buddhism real term. When finally understood, i just realized how different i was thinking about it. These two worlds were meet inside of me.
Japanese man: *Tries to explain Buddhism* Rodrigues: “Buddha was only a man, like all men. He is not the creator.” Imagine going to someone else’s country and telling them their religion is wrong and try to impose your religion as if it were the fact of life.
@madscientist 666 That’s not the point. The point is the absurdity of going to someone else’s country and telling them their beliefs are false, while simultaneously implementing your own beliefs when none asked for them.
@@NedWasHere94 This only further illustrates the point that the Jesuits were ignorant of the local religion and culture. It is true that no Buddhist posits the Gautama Buddha as the creator or master of the universe and mankind in the way the Abrahamic faiths do for their God. However, this is beside the point. As the interpreter pointed out, in Mahayana Buddhism a Buddha is not a god in the way understood by the Jesuits, but an enlightened being that anyone is capable of becoming if they are able to overcome their worldly connections. The main tenets of Buddhism are largely a personal commitment, and the ultimate goal is not to receive some larger reward, but to achieve a higher understanding. This willful ignorance of the Japanese religion and worldview also influenced the way Rodrigues is treated. Unlike the Jesuits who outright refused to learn anything about the local religion, the inquisitors are intimately familiar with how Rodrigues views his own faith. While professing to live in the example of Jesus, he and the other Jesuits refuse to live among the people they preach to and understand their ways. Furthermore, for much of the movie Rodrigues constantly seeks his own martyrdom in order to save the prosecuted Christians out of an implicit desire for his own glory and to achieve the Heaven his religion promises. Instead, the inquisitors repeatedly persecute converts in his presence unless he apostasizes. Rodrigues’ motivation is inherently selfish, as he is repeatedly shown willing to allow innocents to suffer in order to satisfy both his own ego and his personal desire for eternal paradise promised to him by his religion. This motivation is about as far removed from the example set by Jesus in the New Testament as one can get.
Jesus Christ: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The creator of the universe has dibs on everything in this manufactured reality, so then surely know what Truth is, and it is himself And so the further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who proclaim it If you have a religion that tells you that the truth is mysterious and is impossible to find, it might not be the right one, and it's likely not true, but a creator of the universe would know everything about his creation right?
Mortal man......with his/her limited knowledge, power, and strength.....frail tissue, a bag of blood and bone held together in a human shell.....trying to comprehend The Living God - El Elyon - The God Most High, the Creator of the Universe. The Bible says in John 4:24 - "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth" My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to read some of the comments here. Man has always tried to paint a picture of God, but can the mortal define the immortal? People throughout the ages have tried to define God according to their beliefs, their narrow viewpoint. Everything comes from God. Amazing as it may sound, even the desire to know God comes from God, so that no man may boast. For it is written in Matthew 22:14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen." Few are chosen, because many in their pride fail to see the truth, even if it is right in front of them. Humble yourself and seek God, and I guarantee you will find Him. God works on a one-on-one basis. It is a personal relationship. Not religion or whatever else you might be tempted to call it. God The Loving Father is so amazing and I am in awe and humbled by the fact that He loves me so dearly. It is written in Psalm 34:8 - "Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him" I can testify to the fact: that this is true. I have tasted and seen in my life - that The Lord is Good!!! I am so Blessed to be living a life that is full of His Tender Mercy and, most importantly, the constant Love. It is truly an amazing life to live.....knowing that you are so deeply loved and cared for....and that we can hope for life eternal. I wish we could have time to discuss in greater detail......for now, for your own sake.....please watch Pastor Ken Peters video - "I saw the tribulation". Please watch this video with an open mind. This is not a money-making tactic, forcible conversion, recruitment, or anything of the sort. For those, who spew forth profanity and slander, with no respect for God or man, please remember: It is written in Galatians 6:7 - "God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." God Bless to one and all.....hope to see you on the other side. Maranatha - Come Lord Jesus!!!
I found this movie to be extremely powerful, but it bother me more than most horror films. It's a terrific movie, but I have found it very difficult to enjoy.
liam neeson has been converted. The man to the right, the asian man, has more wisdom than liam neesons character. He is fully converted. He is not underestimating the wisdom of intelligence of the japanese like i first thought. Underestimate them in the way the he thinks they only worship nature and cant think of metaphysics. He is converted. He is japanese now. And he thinks like them. Thats the message here. Liam neeson is speaking a new perspective. To say the japanese culture is mans original nature? thats pure conversion.
Dainichi (or Vairocana) is actually the supreme deity in Japanese Buddhism (especially Tendai), which was then identified with Amaterasu, the supreme deity in Shinto, after Buddhism was introduced into Japan, so it is quite reasonable why Japanese identified God/Deus in Christianity with Dainichi cause it is also a supreme deity. Also, Son of God is just one out of three persons in the trinity so...
If you wish to persuade monks who are stewards of land and property or warriors who are men of worldly duties and admired by the common people for the austere and manly virtues of knighthood embodied by their vocation, don't send a priest or argue with them like Jesuits, send Templars or Hospitallers and let their eyes judge a form of thy faith lived in daily practice by men in service of an earthly lord in service of their heavenly emperor. But that would require Western men of sterner inner stuff than missionary priests, Portuguese sailors or perfumed Dutch merchants.
“JOHN 14:6” “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”, “John 3:16 King James Version 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”, “Romans 6:23 King James Version 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”, “REVELATION 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”, reply for a conversation about this or prayer petitions! God bless your souls and may He save you and your loved ones in Jesus name! May God have mercy on humanity in Jesus name
This movie has always unsettled me as a Christian in that it seems that the situation in Japan is hopeless in terms of Christianity actually working. However there are a few points in have noticed. 1. The actual missionaries are sent by the Catholic Church. I know I have brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church but more often than not it seems Catholics hold the ceremony over the love Jesus taught. Ultimately we end up in this strange situation where images of Christ and his mother are held as sacred. When in reality they aren’t. 2. It is so strange to hear the Daimyo talk about Buddhism and the path to divinity. Yet the way it is treated even in Japan today is something kind of just tied to being Japanese. Yet, they forsake the actual doctrines. Him bringing up Buddhism and the Japanese way of life has nothing to do with spiritual beliefs but rather maintaining a level of control over people and his own situation. Yet, Buddhism itself was once foreign to Japan. 3. Yet, here we are. We have people being tortured to death because their allegiance isn’t to the Shogun. A man told to abandon his beliefs or else they will be killed and it’s “his fault.” It is backwards in the sense that the man telling him to submit seems to just ignore key aspects of even Buddhist doctrine and will sit there watching people die with zero issue. Yet the way he talks makes him seem like the voice of reason. Like… can you imagine someone holding someone hostage and threatening to kill the hostage unless you change your faith. 4. In a sense Neason’s character is correct that you can’t really discount a cultures language and cultural values when you share the gospel. The gospel may challenge those values but ultimately that is something the new believers will need to wrestle through. Even Jesus says render under Ceaser’s what is Ceaser’s. So paying taxes is important. Yet, the way it is treated here, it almost seems like they are claiming that the Japanese citizens are property of Japan. Jesus said to render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s, people though are not property. Though this is something that has been a running issue in human history in general. 5. Japan in a sense is correct in that the European countries would use missionaries to infiltrate countries. People tend to mix the motives of church and governments with the motives of the Gospel. That’s just not the case. I guess in that case, I could say that would be the same case with Buddhism and the Shogunate. They didn’t care about Buddhism because it didn’t threaten government affairs at the time. So that’s why he had zero issues using it to combat the missionaries faith. Yet by his own beliefs he fails because executing innocent people already taints his path to Nirvanah.
![No Country For Old Men - Coin Toss Scene [HD]](/img/1.gif)
I love how simply raw this movie was. No magic, no miracles, no prophecies like how many christian movies portray god. Instead, the plot and conflict is driven by men and women struggling with faith; like how it really is.
You first Commie!
@Doge di Amalfi Go watch Harry Potter, if you like movies of fictional books.
@Doge di Amalfi that's funny considering a lot of whats x-men is pulled from Christian themes. Professor X using Cerebro to reach the lost mutants. Magneto taking a third of the mutants to join his brotherhood. Apocalypse and his 4 horsemen.
@Doge di Amalfi ruclips.net/video/YVdKq3AkfJ8/видео.html
@Doge di Amalfi
I like this comment of what this guy said from the final part of the film where the main character steps on the image of Christ.
"I believe that in this scene we are shown the final part of the retelling of Jesus's life. The protagonist comes bearing the Christian faith, is betrayed for money (just like Judas) and in this scene we see death. While in Jesus's times many protected themselves from physical harm, here we see a totally different type of death, death of the ego. Throughout the movie, the protagonist disregards those who are not of strong faith and acts with a 'holier-than-thou' attitude, especially towards Kichichiro. He constantly compares himself to Jesus and believes that he should die like Jesus, with strong faith and this is where he misses the mark. Jesus died for others and it was not his simple stance on faith but his love for humanity that brought him to the cross. The protagonist's ego, not his body, is what he wants to protect. The belief that he is special and holy due to his resistance to the Japanese. And finally, in this scene, he sacrifices his most valuable part of him, the only thing he truly cared for and protected, his faith, to save countless lives of his followers at a great cost to himself. He is then given a new life, a 'resurrection' of sorts.
"
So if there were some Christians out there pissed off at the fact he proceeded with apostasy, he did exactly as Christ would have done, choose the lives of many at great cost to himself.
you kind of sound like the holier than thou type to me.
This is what movies are missing: reasonable dialogue. This is so stimulating to the brain!!
Hollywood movies are not meant to stimulate your brain, they are meant to diverse you from thinking and make you forget your problems for a while
@@leandrocarabajal1633 whatever pal
@@leandrocarabajal1633 NO
I would agree, tarantino movies are full of mindless drivel when it comes to dialogue.
@@leandrocarabajal1633what era are we talkin? I agree that hollywood since the 00s has fallen off a bit off a cliff but there are so many excellent movies from back in the day. And this film is personal to one of the last living greats from that era. Even if you didnt care for it you have to admit it was written, directed, and acted with a passion rarely seen in cinemas these days
"No one should interfere with another mans spirit"
*continuously tries to break spirit*
Not to be that guy, but I think that's he whole point. There was a lot that they felt was being forced upon them and changing their ways. They took that very personally, since culture means so much to so many. They wanted to return the relentless push they felt. At least, that's how I looked at it, I could be very wrong.
@Afqwa i would say the metaphors are actually very relevant. Mountains & rivers can be moved but mans nature cannot be moved. In other words, allowing yourself to suffer and die for a materialistic notion of martydom is pointless, because the purity of faith is beyond materialism. The Buddhist monk was not simply saying, back off and get out of our country, he was also trying to help the padre see why his thinking of preaching/converting was fundamentally flawed.
Great film, im glad Scorsese had the courage to show both sides of the argument
They were fighting colonialism. And colonialism spreads thru the faith. After seeing what colionialism has done for the world I don’t blame the Japanese
@@siddharthnair1580 after what japan did to China and South Korea. Japan was the biggest colonizer in the east and I know whataboutery won't take us anywhere but just saying
バスキアス yes that’s true but that happened centuries after this.
"He despised our language, our food, our customs"
Dude couldn't imagine the concept of Weebs today
"They worship our cartoons. It's so odd."
Cabral was a arse
Liam became a weaboo and Garfield is trying to save him
Hahaha holy shit
Thats funny as hell
Weeaboos are Western Heretics and should be burned to damnation. Spider Man is right on this one.
When I read Garfield, I got confused and started looking for Bill Murray in these scenes.
Fuck Christianity.
An atheist can see this film and a priest and both think it’s excellent. That’s why this film is such a masterpiece.
I'm an atheist and thought it was okay.
The book is phenomenal, and worth reading as well
I’m an antitheist and really like this movie
Atheist here, I really liked this movie. It's definitely thought provoking, as it gives a nuanced perspective on the topic, rather than pushing an agenda. Really makes you rethink the way we view faith and religion in general
Taken 5: They took my religion, and I want it back!
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you're looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money... but what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my converts go now, that will be the end of it - I will not look for you, I will not pursue you... but if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you... and I will kill you.
They took away the Holy Spirit my friend, you don’t worship a God who doesn’t answer , but a supernatural , Jesus. Clearly said I am not leaving alone but I will sent the Spirit of truth . Read the book of Acts of the Bibble
@@MintmakeupNot to quibble, but the Bibble?
I truly cannot tell Liam Neeson’s character believes what he is saying or is simply terrified of being punished further. Amazing acting from the master.
Raw force is the only law in this world. These other cultures understand that.
@@manager4409 Without love, it wouldn't be worth it. So is force still greater?
I wish he would take more roles that get to showcase his acting talent, instead of all these action roles.
Force and violence will destroy all love and happiness regardless of the circumstances, no matter what childish wishful thinking or futile pleading with the utterly indifferent universe you engage in. All the "faith", "acceptance", "enlightenment" and "love" in the world won't lessen the pain of the fire as it sears your flesh, or calm the horrific nightmare of being mutilated, eviscerated or beheaded.
@@zonesquestiloveunderworldwhat do you have then?
"All the time he was here, he taught, but he would not learn..."
You cannot convert a person to a faith. You can only present them with what you know, and allow them to make their own decision based on what they believe. Simply saying you're a Christian, doesn't make you one. I've seen non-believers act with more morals than baptized Christians and I've see baptized Christians act more immoral than non-believers. To be Christian is in the way you act, treat and talk to others. Not because you simply show up on time every Sunday morning and belong specific church or group.
What you're saying is not necessarily true at all unless you're a Catholic, Orthodox or another denomination similar to it. Protestants believe in faith alone, meaning that only through true faith alone will you achieve salvation. The way you act is merely a consequence of what your faith is. Someone who has personally truly accepted Jesus Christ into their life and who has a continuous relationship with Him would never act overwhelmingly immoral because through his faith he will act good. These Christians you talk about might be baptized but they never truly accepted Jesus Christ in their hearts if they continued to live a sinful live. Atleast this is the protestant point of view.
CivicGuard I see what you mean. But, modern Christians are generally pretty laid back in terms of salvation through belief. Most Christians, I know at least, ignore probably about 90% of the Bible. Only following Jesus’s teachings. Many I know say even Jews and Muslims go to heaven if they are good people. Which makes no sense in comparison to scripture.
Most Christians seem to be very unwilling to condemn others just because of which faith or denomination they choose.
But this is all just anecdotal.
See Cha It’s an interesting point you have. But, I have a question.
What say you to the Teutonic order? And the northern crusades. Poland and Lithuania were converted by the sword. Pagans were killed if they did not accept Catholicism. Would you say that’s real faith? Or just them saying that to avoid death? I don’t know the answer.
But I do know that over time Lithuania and Poland did eventually overwhelmingly accept Catholicism. How would that work exactly? When it was originally forced upon them under threat of death.
@@Rokaize This is true and that is why we see a lot more immorality within Christian communities. Since people become less dependant on faith they become more immoral as a consequence. They forget that one of the clearest messages of the Bible is that only through Christ could one ever come to the Father.
Yes you got it right and I agree with you there, like the apostles did before they were preaching to the people but the difference between the apostles and to the modern Christians is they are not forcing people to the faith even Jesus do same thing as well he let people decide themselves if they didn't like his teaching he let them.
I feel like non of yall watched the movie.
And I feel like you can fuck off 🖕🏽
@@Jaime13R 🤨
Learn to speak english.
this scene is so amazing. there acting is incredible. i can’t imagine how it must feel, to see someone who mentored you in the Faith. now convincing you to change your beliefs.
From what I hear, the entire part of Liam Neeson’s character explaining the Japanese religion was all improvised. It completely changed the intended message, and for me, was this movie’s redeeming quality.
@@TheKalihiMan I find that hard to believe, ridiculous even.
Andrew Roberts Not change your beliefs,get you to understand them in a new way.
no, he wasn't trying to change his beliefs, he was trying to show him the true meaning of his faith
I'm not Christian but this movie moved me as much as the comment section disgusted me.
It baffles me how people can be so vindictive and be so ignorant to the plight of others.
@Olav Langlifuck you sound kinda narcissistic
lol what, everyone is saying stuff like
"obi wan a true Jedi.... He sounds like a Jedi
"
"Such an underrated film. One of the best in the last decade in my opinion
"
"He has a particular set of skills
"
"How can you even hate Japanese food
"
"Taken 5: They took my religion, and I want it back!
"
"Liam became a weaboo and Garfield is trying to save him
"
and your trying to start shit dickhead
@Olav Langli that is simply not what evolving is what are you a Pokémon
@@branchy7159 oh the hipocracy
Pen Pink actually the only narcissist on this thread is you.
this is a rough movie
Marvin Martin who cares what he thinks
I agree, it is a rough movie. It gives an interesting perspective of the meaning of religion in a culture and in a personal sense. I really enjoyed it.
Well, when there's samurai, the movie will almost always have roughness to it.
Marvin Martin I think he means rough in its candid and contentious presentation of difficult concepts. It’s rough because it’s difficult to confront such ideas.
What he means, and I also share this opinion, is that it's a tough movie to watch because of the immense suffering and psychological torture the protagonists and the persecuted Christians go through over the course of a nearly 3-hour movie, with no one to save them and no magical solutions in sight.
Although American, I have lived in Japan for over 20 years. Japanese not only practice Buddhism, but also Shinto. In my family, we have both Buddhist and Shinto altars in our house, and visit both Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines. Shinto has gods, but most Japanese don't know the names of these gods. They are only "kami-sama": God. Likewise, Japanese doesn't really have a plural form. If I have one pencil, I have "enpitsu". If I have two pencils, I still have "enpitsu". So whether they are thinking of one god or many gods, the form is still "Kami-sama".
The Japanese Emperor opposed Christianity for two reasons. One, at this time, the military was gaining great power, even greater power than the Emperor himself, and in Japan, the Emperor's power comes from Shinto, as the Emperor was considered to be descended from the Shinto goddess of the Sun, Amaterasu. But Shinto does not oppose the existence of other religions. This alone was not enough to raise the government's opposition.
At this time, European powers were using Christianity as a way to gain control in non-Christian countries. Christianity was as much a political threat as a threat to traditional Japanese social customs. Once people were organized in churches, they would be used to oppose the government. The military was afraid that Christianity could likewise be used in Japan to draw power away from the Emperor (and themselves). I believe this is ultimately why they tried to destroy early Christianity.
No one cares my guy
@@CINTERPOL He has 40 upvotes so people do find it interesting.
2本の鉛筆を持っています
kirin-rex
Tried? Didn't they succeed?
@@tulkdog No. Christians simply got better at hiding. There aren't many Christians in Japan (only about 1%, though actually I was surprised it was that many!) However, there are churches, Catholic schools and so on, and have been ever since Christianity was brought to Japan.
“It is not necessary to win anyone over one side to another when there is so much to share.”
Moments later, “I’ve been told to get you to abandon the faith.”
That is a contradiction, but in fairness to the Japanese, the Portuguese were in their country telling them that unless they converted to Catholicism (which meant also adopting Western ways), they'd burn in hell. They were trying to get him to renounce his faith to discourage the spread of a foreign religion in their country; they didn't otherwise care what religion he believed in; they weren't trying to get him to convert to Buddhism. And let's be real here: how do you think the Portuguese would have reacted to hundreds of Japanese Buddhist missionaries in Portugal? I think the Inquisition would've had themselves a real field day torturing them all till they converted to Catholicism.
@@valmarsiglia And? What's your point? the inquisitions are rightly historically seen as utter atrocities with the heads villified ever since.
@@valmarsiglia Do you go on every comment section just lying thru your teeth. Saying what ifs all day.
@@profile1172 Wow, I must've really hit a nerve, eh?
@@valmarsiglia "They weren't trying to get him to convert to Buddhism". Yet they forced him to write books that debunked Christianity, they forced him to break his celibacy vows and they even stripped off his name. What was left to share? Nothing, they won him over to their side.
The part of the discussion starting at 4:09 doesn't get as much discussion as other important themes in the movie. I believe it is a very pertinent issue-especially for universalising religions such as Catholicism. Even if we use the same names, seemingly speak the same language, how can we be sure we're talking about the same thing?
This can be especially important with the central (or at least more payed-attentioned-to) theme of apostasy, particularly with how it's carried out. Garfield is pressured into desecrating an image fashioned by unfamiliar people (the fumi-e: the plaque depicting Jesus), made according to how they imagine these Christian ideas are meant to be represented-and made for the purpose of being trampled on!
It just seems that one of the biggest things to take from this movie is how elusive expression is.
Yeah I thought the people that have seen the movie just got the wrong message, like how religion is bad because it brings suffering and all that blabla, but instead the movie focuses on how beliefs varies from one another, from different cultures, even when we're preaching the same thing its likely that we'll not get the same thing out of it, because the roots aren't there for Japan as they are in Europe. For the Japanese, Rodrigues wasn't just a preacher of God's word, he was the embodiment of their faith, he was the word of God, and they needed him because otherwise their faith would die. You can say they were following his teachings, but they didn't follow Christianity as a religion, and this is what Rodrigues failed to understand, cause he thought that trampling on christ face meant the same thing for him and everyone else, not realizing that they wouldn't do it because HE wouldn't, not because it's christ face. And that is what Ferreira is trying to tell him here.
@@sebdrum92 Yeah, there was a specific scene where one of the asked Garupe/Driver about paradise and the question caught him off guard and he had to try to answer this person.
what do the japanese people think the cross rpresents then? Doesn't really make sense to me
The book's scene is a lot more detailed and mentions some Buddhist theology which the movie unfortunately omits.
Which book is it
@@Princevegeta21 Silence by Shusaku Endo.
It was probably just a runtime issue the movie is like over 2 1/2 hours
That’s why it’s a movie
Ironically, the Japanese were pretty hostile towards Buddhism when it first came.
Yes, but Buddhism eventually gained acceptance when it coexisted and syncretized with existing traditions rather than attempt to supplant them like Catholicism did. Even the word Francis Xavier used to communicate the closest equivalent to the Abrahamic God (Dainichi) was an already existing concept which syncretized the ultimate enlightened form of the Gautama Buddha with the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu, and early converts and religious authorities in all likelihood believed he was merely trying to communicate yet another facet of this concept. It was only when he realized his “converts” were not supplanting their old beliefs but merely incorporating what he had preached into their existing practices that he stopped using the term, and when local authorities grew less tolerant of him proselytizing an actual rival religion.
Japan were hostile to any and everyone
In the end he lived as Christ did. He sacrificed an essential part of himself to save others. For Christ, his body. For Rodrigus, his faith.
He lived the exact opposite as Christ did. Jesus sacrificed His body so He wouldn't have to give up His faith. Rodrigus sacrificed his faith so he wouldn't have to give up his body.
@@InitialPC did you even watch the movie?
@@TheJayTexas a Catholic, this movie is a debate, and even Endo has self-debates. The Catholic view is that to die a martyr is the Christian way. The world can have my body; my spirit belongs to God. Yet on the other hand, there must be a way for secret Christians to publicly renounce the faith yet continue to try to spread the faith in secret. Who is right in the case of Ferrera and Rodrigues? It is a debate.
"Some people seem to mistake Objectivity for Negativity, and wishful-thinking for Positivity."
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich Nietzsche was very "woke".
Nietzsche's teachings aren't for people at your lower level so your reaction is understandable.
Yet another pseudo intellectual follower of Nietzsche. Assuming I am from the U.S., assuming what religion I believe in. People like you quote and believe Nietzsche but in reality its people like you that don't even know Nietzsche or his ideas. You champion Nietzsche as this anti religions figure that somehow makes you superior to a theist when you prattle off one of his quotes but in reality if you lived in a society where God was really dead and Nietzsche's new morality was cultivated you would be a victim almost immediately. Nietzsche didn't believe in equality or other religious altruistic beliefs that people like you benefit from but feel superior to. Sorry Blah b, you would be one of the subjugated Nietzsche mentions, along with all the other NEET overweight atheists who haven't a clue.
+Dr. Death
So you whine about assumptions, then start making assumptions about me. Hilarious. All I did was observe that you cry about Nietszsche because you don't like your religious prattling being dismissed; you expected it to be taken seriously.
Also your religion has no altruistic beliefs. Don't try to hijack basic human decency for your own religion.
Also we live in socieities where 'god is dead', all of us do no matter what we think of religion. No gods exist, so how can there be a society in which any gods exist?
Dr. Death Haha, none of you apparently have a clue what Nietzsche was saying.... When Nietzsche talks about the “death of God” and the superman he isn’t talking about the death of God as a being or force of nature. He’s talking about the rise in orthodoxy and the death of individualism. "Of all that is written I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood and thou wilt find that blood is spirit." "...and once spirit was God." -Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra I suggest you all do a little more research and a little less mudslinging.
Neeson: I've been told to get you to abandon the role of Spiderman
Garfield: ...
Lol
Buddha originally did not intend to be immortalized as a deity. However as many generations passed, other religions and what not prompted Buddhist followers to tweak the details on who or what buddha is.
I imagine Jesus would have felt the same way. What confuses the shit out of me is ...Jesus was a Jew. A devout Jew. He didn’t start a new religion, and throughout the four testaments, he’s referred to consistently as Rabbi. I was raised Christian, but if you really immerse yourself in history, philosophy and reason, it’s easy to see all the different religions of the world as branches growing from the same tree. Religion means nothing without compassion. If we could agree on compassion as a basis, and agree to disagree on the specifics, what a world that would be.
@@RustinChole Jesus said to follow him. He fulfilled the promises of the old testament. The veil was torn. "Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice"
@Sanctus Paulus yes, as a devout Jew. Yes. He never said “stop being Jews and call yourselves after my name!”
Pretty much the antithesis to humility.
@@RustinCholeChristians wanted to differentiate themselves from jews since they didn’t believe in jesus was the messiah. So they changed the name of their faith
@@RustinCholeHe said he Was the way, the Truth and the Life, a little blasphemous don’t you think if a teacher would say HE is the truth and life and without him there is no salvation
Religion is one of the few great things that can bring unity and division, peace and destruction at the same time.
Well, unity is often used to stomp on the arbitrarily decided "others" de jour.
Also brings planes into buildings and bombs into buildings of those they disagree with.
And without religion we'd just fine another excuse.
Point is, it's not religion, it's our very nature.
@@YTWgamer Fun fact: it's been calculated that religion has been responsible for only 7% of all recorded wars in history. Every other war was fought due to secular reasons, so get the fuck outta here. Humans will find easier ways and excuses to kill each other, religion or not.
@@zedoctor3724 How do I save RUclips comments?
He is Ferreria only to you, but now he is Master Qui Gon Jinn
"It is not necessary to win people over to one side or another when there is so much to share"
Wise words. Ignored of course.
That was actually one of the statements that I disagreed with in this clip the most because I understand that there are things worth not knowing about in this universe.
We are limited in our time here and pointless pursuits are more over distractions of things that we know we ought to do as human beings.
....also Neutrality gains you nothing in the face of all that information you seek, you'd be setting yourself up for failure, if you can't be swayed by any sides that claim truth, then you aren't truly looking for truth, but instead are looking for a selfish desire to be satisfied, which causes me to believe that in searching for gaining/sharing information is ultimately self-negating.
Wise words are often ignored by people who have taken a side. I was raised Christian and watched zero hearts moved week after week and none of Christ’s teachings followed. Christ was very clear that to be close to god you should do it in your room alone. Sitting through a sermon doesn’t make you a Christian-acts speak louder than beliefs to god, if there is one. Which at this point in my life, after seeing the world and losing a lot of loved ones, I just can’t see as plausible.
@@denniswilkerson5536 you’re calling the pursuit of understanding other beliefs and perspectives besides your own “a waste of time”?
For Pete’s sake there are other beliefs besides Catholicism, which is just one sect of belief in Christianity.
To say none of them are worth learning about is just doing yourself a disservice.
Claiming that only one religion can have the truth is just silly
@@RustinChole you quote one line of Christ and ignore all the rest. Makes me think you do not understand him as well as you think you do.
@@jorgepitkill7412 not true. Just making a point. You know Jesus HATED assumptions. Like the one you just made.🙄you know, I don’t think you know the Bible as well as you think you do!😂🤷🏻♂️
Andrew: "You're a disgrace"
Liam: "Yeah, but watch this Anime real quick"
What I find interesting about this movie is that it shows us that the buddhist inquisition was just as brutal as the christian versions. I guess that at their core people are the same no matter where you go.
Peter humans have a dark side my friend.
Brutal in methods yes. Brutal in numbers no. Christianity did not take much root in Japan outside of the fringe. The European Inquisition has killed a lot. That's not to mention the Crusades.
Not really though. The European Inquisition's ultimate purpose was to ensure that everyone was Catholic, and as noted by another poster below, they have the much higher body count. The purpose of the Japanese version wasn't to convert everyone to Buddhism, its purpose, whether right or wrong, was to uproot a foreign religion. However, Japan never had a one-religion rule as in European countries; there were two main religions practiced there: Buddhism (itself of course a foreign import) and Shintoism, plus one was free not to be religious at all. One could conceivably practice whatever religion one wanted to in private so long as one didn't upset the social order. Compared to that relative religious tolerance in Japan, how do you think European countries would have reacted if some Japanese went to, say, Portugal and tried to open a Buddhist temple? Or tried to convert Christians to Buddhism? What do you think would have happened if some people in Portugal in those days decided that they'd like to try a different religion? There's not much equivalence between Buddhism and Christianity: Christianity, like Islam, by definition has an all-consuming nature. "We're the only true religion; everyone else is unwittingly worshiping Satan, therefore we should rule the world." Buddhism, on the other hand, just doesn't see reality in those totalizing terms.
@@milesedgeworth132 3 years late but I will tell you. When you say European Inquisition what are you talking about? The Church protected natives' rights during colonialism of the Americas. You are mixing up religion with politics. I will also say the Crusades were justified. People always love to bring up how Christians invaded the Holy Land but ignore everything else. You ignore the Muslims attacked Byzantines and other Eastern Christian nations. You also ignore they conquered Spain and went as far as France in the Battle of Tours.
@@valmarsiglia I would like to ask how could one practice whatever religion in private when the Japanese government would torture and massacre them? Buddhism itself was a foreign import but also things such as tea, pottery and many traditions were imported to Japan at the same time as Buddhism. It did not upset the social order because the social order of Japan changed. So, it would seem Japan is relatively tolerant of religion but it is not the case. They had just accepted culture from other Eastern countries. I will agree, Europe would not have allowed it but what did Christians do to those that have other religions? When did Christians in Europe slaughtered hundreds of thousands for their faith. Not war but from massacres. The Spanish Inquisition was not bad as people make it. They were to convert or leave. Torture was not allowed for confessions. Did Japan allow any Christians to leave except for the priests? Buddhism is just used to fit peoples' desires. In the West its secular and in the East its religious but they genocide minorities in the South East now. Christianity is a firm religion. One true religion what is wrong with that? It's become the largest religion in the world and continues to be so. Islam is quite backwards compared to Christianity.
I'll tell you a short story about a Christian English shoe maker. He lived in a small farm town in the mid 18th century. The man made shoes his whole life. When he wasn't making shoes for the towns people, he was reading his Bible, and carving his favorite verses into the walls of his wooden shop. It was not uncommon for people to ask about the verses and have open discussions on God in the man's shop. He converted about a dozen people a year for decades and strengthened the faith of many more Christians that last through his town.
One day he got too old and couldn't make shoes as effectively as he use to. So he hired a young teenage orphan to be his apprentice. The boy did the labor intensive work of making the shoes that the old man couldn't.
One day a new show making shop was built in town and the old man and his apprentice lost some buisness. The boy was worried so one day he went to the shop and found that they were making shoes much faster than the old man was. However he also saw that that shop cut corners and made their shoes of a lesser quality than the old man. He asked the owner of the shop about it and the man said,"They come back all the quicker when we cut corners my boy!"
The boy went back to the old man and was convinced that if they did not start cutting corners they would go out of buisness. The old man stopped his work immediately and went over to his Bible, which was always open on the counter. The old man read his apprentice a verse.
"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters" -Colossians 3:23
After reading the verse The old man turned to the boy and said,"One day, I will Die. When I do I will stand before the throne of God and I expect to see every shoe I have ever made, or fixed over the years in a great pile before me. I know God will judge me on my heart's intensions and look to my good work I have down for my fellow man and he will say to me,"Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have served your fellow man well and followed after me all your life. The Kingdom of Heaven is yours for all of Eternity!"
The old man continued,"That is why we don't cut corners. It is for the love of God himself! Now you must think for yourself young man. What kind of man are you going to be? Will you be a good man and love your neighbor or will you cheat and swindle your neighbor for some money?"
With that the Old man went back to his work making shoes.
if god weren't busy making perfect shoes, maybe he could have saved some more lives during the holocaust
@@magustx a good lesson. Thank you.
Sammuel Parris -- thank you for this story.
r/im14andthisisdeep
but then the man might go broke, lose his shop and the ability to acquire materials to make the shoes, thereby ending his dreams period. It might be ok for him, he's older and has done what he wanted with his life, but the young boy working for him loses his job, maybe hurting his life forever, and will then have to work for the shopkeeper who does cut corners.
That's what makes the message of the movie so powerful, its not the priest who's in danger, he's fine with being martyred for his beliefs. It's the people who surround him who are depending on him for their lives that he is forced to either sacrifice for, or have to live knowing they died because of his beliefs.
Finally saw this whole movie today and I will say as a Christian it gave me MUCH to think about in terms of how a Christian responds to suffering. I asked myself what I would have done had I been in Father Rodrigues place.
That's interesting I know I wouldn't have people die for me. It's not even a second thought. To save any life should be the ultimate goal of any religion
The amazing movie brings also an impossible challenge: as Christian, shall save lives of poor people that would die for their Faith, or apostatize saving few lives but dooming the whole religion. Japanese inquisition was definitely smarter then Romans: there's no point in torture someone making him a martyr. Just put him in front of an impossible choice and whatever he chose, you win. That's how Asia survived thousands years. As they say: One Land
It's true, trying to convert a specific culture group into true Christianity took years and even very very delicate leap of faith for that particular group. This is Japanese ethnic that has their own set of religion belief. The movie presents how the Portuguese priests failed to translate the Gospel into Japanese way that is true and correct, thus the Japanese got the distortion of the Christianity faith (the Son of God = the Sun of God, Sun being the God in Japanese religion). This is what the movie claims, through which source, we not given clearly, as history claims various sources differently.
Same as Chinese culture when confronted by the Christianity, they (the chinese) were used to worship the 12 heavenly gods so that they would be blessed when the 12 gods are contend with their sacrifices offered in the temple. When Christianity came, the similar old pattern that were used in previous religion were applied onto Jesus Christ, that somehow giving tithe, and offering to God, it has similar system of give and take, like a vending machine based on faith on the luck in their lives. While at the same time the chinese christians most of them don't build true relationship worship with the Trinity God, as true as the early Jews and Romans converts in early Apostles time.
Jews, Chinese, and even Japanese, has their own culture religion built and bred around their own set of mythos. Which is the true God, must be able to claim their Godship, thus the losing culture must be willing to abandon their culture-religion background onto the true one. Even God in the Bible sternly warned us to not mix-match beliefs, as reflected on how the Jews were instructed to not weave garments from more than one material, as it is abomination before the LORD. The Japanese distortion of the "sun" of God of Christianity, and basically makes the Portuguese priests as their "deity", is that abomination that God despises. The fact the priests failed to see their error and just failed to notice the abomination they making, just proves it is folly, and their laziness to learn the language themselves, instead depends on the "japanese translator" that never understands the whole Abrahamic religion culture, making the translation of the gospel, into abomination of faith.
@@郑骏豪-x1t Ur absolutely right. Unlike Orthodox missionaries in Alaska who took time learning the language, these Portugese missionaries were lazy fools.
Funny, they're both arguing the exact same point. Just from a different perspective! The one thing they aren't doing, is following their religious values, by tolerating each others differences.
Peter Conlon Tolerating, a religious value ? lol
@Wade Haden So then would you say its a growing apart from God and a spirtual aspect and more towards material possession which causes hate?
Christians are commanded by Jesus to convert others, tolerance of other religions is the exact opposite of that.
Damnit, you didn't include the rotting tree analogy. That was the best part hands down.
A tree will flourish in one soil but rot in another. (something like that)
MIZZKIE that’s actually in scripture. Just learned about that. Those who are true Christians will have good soil, those who deny Christ with every being in their soul will have the very opposite. Can’t plant a fruit tree that will blossom with the fruits of knowledge love and everything else without the seeds growing into good soil. It’s very poetic and true
woahdudette it's not true tho, you honestly think people who don't believe in your concept of god are rotting on the inside and deserve eternal punishment? that is my biggest problem with aberhamic religions and why i decided to leave one, it's so immoral and yet claims it is ruled by a perfectly moral god, when you look at a religion like Christianity and the beliefs in it as a whole, it's extremely immoral and contradictory
@@noire1706 The abrahamic religions are immoral by whose standard?
@@noire1706 I see you are a staunch Antitheist by the way..... Neil Degrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins..... it seems like you left your previous religion with a little help..... and ended up finding a new one.
You've been indoctrinated into the Theo..... Religion of Evolution
You claim morality for yourself and your own views, but you portray them as if they were Objective, but you dont even realise you are borrowing from the very religion that you denounce which has an objective moral compass and has an ultimate reference for maintaining that objective moral compass within the confines on it's subject universe.
You can't determine for yourself what is right and wrong and portray your feeling as the truth, it's subjective in all forms, and if you believe that there are no *Absolutes* like your buddy Richard Dawkins then there is no Truth, if there is no Absolute Truth, then there is no reference of which you can ground your belief, which means that your belief holds no validity.
@@noire1706
Sounds like baseless Dawkins talking point, but alright.
"I'll just call it immoral and contradictory with zero proof and the atheist RUclips sheeple will applaud me"
- you
I’d be shocked too if my mentor became a total weeb
*For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.* Corinthians 1:18. The devil will never come to us openly declaring his identity. Rather, he will do it with those we love. Those we listen to. Listen to the words of Father Farreira (the apostate) "your wasting your time here. nothing grows in this country, it is like a swamp. If the Japanese believed in God, they only believed in a distortion of the gospel."......you could almost be listening to the devil himself. But history tells us it has only been in times of adversity and martyrdom the church of God has flourished.
Thank you for making my point.
@@BloodOfYeshuaMessiah What you have there is an unfalsifiable proposition. You should spend some time researching logical fallacies and cognitive biases.
Such an underrated film. One of the best in the last decade in my opinion
Man I love this conflict.
Its like i understand both sides and this is done out of a need of protecting native culture against a religeon that can be used for an invasion by higher powers.
Both sides.
Lmao so off mate. You really goign to put the guys crucifying and torturing on the same level as priests tryign to convert people to another religion?
@@IncredibleGoliath the Shimabara rebellion done in a Christian part of Japan was done because their feudal lord raised taxes and worked peasants to death to build another mansion
That’s not… what? Was that what they were talking about?
It's all just about converting. My way is the only way. With such an ultimatum it creates arrogance and stubbornness because you believe that your faith is the only one. How? What gives you sole claim?
This statement could be used for any religion out there and to be honest for nothing at all. I find myself torn to pieces because i was raised in the south and trust me from the time i opened my eyes until night you see God. I always ask questions and to a point i was told to not ask anything at all just obey because it is the right way to live. I follow my instincts from day to day and i live a good life but when it comes to religion i am in so many pieces.
+sinfulways1492 Religion is built on fear of the Unknown. Be good for goodness sake not because you are going to get a pat on the head at the end of it.
At least we Christians are not denying that Christianity is an exclusive religion. And we believe that there is no human being on earth without a sin.. Everyone has sinned and as a sinner if you try to make up for your sin by doing good works without doing it in the name of Jesus the son of God, you can only fool humans and yourself that your sin has been outweighed by the good works you do... Only by accepting Jesus, Jesus can outweigh your sin (it doesn't matter how small your sin is, a sin is a sin, stealing a piece of gum is stealing, a white lie is a lie, exaggerating is lying)
The Christian God is a righteous judge and punishes any sinner who doesn't accept Jesus but at the same time forgives ANY sinner if they accept Jesus. it's a very fair deal for the sinners that we all are.
+factfeeder777 so in order for our sin to be forgiven an innocent man had to be tortured to death and bleed out on a wooden cross? You serve a bloodthirsty and cruel God. A God that saddles you with guilt and strict codes that go against your basic nature. A nature that he allows to exist so that you are in a constant state of struggle and guilt. Wake up from your illusions and accept the fact that one day you will return to oblivion.
+factfeeder777 you Christians are so terrified of the death of your Ego you accept any promise of an afterlife. Even if it is delivered by a God of War like Yahweh.
Just realize this Japanese man is Tadanobu Asano, who is awesome in Shogun (FX).
I might have to give this movie a go, im getting strong "Shogun" vibes. The book by James Clavell. That book wonderfully played religion (Protestant, Catholic, Shinto, Buddhism) into the main story to were the religious beliefs of the characters were sort of their own characters themselves and could twist and change. The Japanese and Portuguese both viewed each other as "savages" and in a lot of ways you agreed with both sides.
Excellent acting from all 3 actors in these two scenes! Particularly, Andrew Garfield in the 2nd scene ... losing admiration for his mentor, his persistence, and his vulnerability ... A sad, challenging, but rewarding scene for those who reflect on the complex human emotions depicted in this scene.
You do know that Martin Scorsese himself is a catholic and he actually made this film partially from his own religious experiences right?
The book this movie is based on is also written by.a Christian, Shunsaku Endo.
Martin Scorsese currently identifies as a 'lapsed Catholic.' But, as this movie shows, he is clearly psychologically tortured by his own thoughts, actions, his own apostasy, renunciation of Christianity, his divorces, and more. Many of his films are odes to ubiquitous, pervasive Catholic guilt.
I was diagnosed with PTSD years ago from a horrifically asphyxiating childhood with myriads of abysmal things, but years of childhood Christian indoctrination, inculcation and proselytizing were one of the biggest contributors. I can sympathize.
And yes, the film is also based off of the Shusaku Endo novel 'Silence.'
Marvel fans- but there's no jokes so it's a bad film
3:05 "No one should interfere with another man's spirit."
- Says the captain of the Christian torture squad.........
As he says it to a catholic, infamous for their violent and cruel inquisition
Seeing what Christianity did to many native and indigenous people all around the world, the Japanese were well justified uprooting Christianity in their country
@RoyalKnightVIII There's very much a contradiction of religious faiths in their way to help others and their way to implement institutional control.
@@RoyalKnightVIII not all catholics are inquisitors
@@InitialPC way to utterly miss the point
A young Yabushige
Very different character to Yabushige lol
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in Heaven.
which makes god an asshat for forcing people to be tortured for something as petty as making up a lie to save your family. If I was god (it's a thought experiment, dont get triggered), I would say "go ahead, for fuck sake, STEP ON MY FACE YOU IDIOT, SAVE THE OTHERS!"
There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for a friend.
John 15: 13
That is what Rodrigues did when he stepped on the tumor. He trained as Jesuit to devote himself to Christ. He would have been honored to die a martyr for Christ; but when he realized that others were suffering for it he sacrificed all of that to save them.
@@toxendon you haven't watch the ending scene of this movie then. God talks to rodriguez and says "step on me"
@@nickpenaranda725 Yeah, in the movie - but not in actual theology
@@toxendon you do know that graven images like in the movie is forbidden in "actual theology"
It's okay to step on it
This is why I love movies by guys like Scorcese and Tarantino. They write such great dialogue. Something that is missing from a lot of films these days. Quality dialogue does something to the brain, it stimulates it, makes it think. I love that about some movies.
Tarantino's movies are degeneracy.
Films made by a director with an actual vision will always be better than movies made by hacks who are vetted by a board of corporate charlatans.
I cannot possibly see how you'd connect a religious dialogue scene between two priests to dialogue in a Tarantino movie. He has written nothing even remotely similar to this in his entire career.
@@vishaansingh1019 Uh its pretty easy to. Great dialogue is great dialogue.
Yabushige-sama
1:04 ''Even a Buddha dies, like all men. He is not the creator'' absolutely loved that line and delivery by Garfield.
Kind of funny considering the foundation of the Christian faith is God dying and coming back three days later.
@@Quinntus79 He came back that’s the point
@@niyatiarun I’d say Buddha got the better deal since he achieved Nirvana and didn’t re-enter the reincarnation system.
@@Quinntus79 and Jesus is at his Father’s side in Paradise. Sounds pretty good to me
@@niyatiarun wait Jesus and father are two individuals? I thought they all( including holy spirit) are the same within.
Neeson: I've been told to get you to bend the knee to Brenda Song (saws)
does anyone know the original Japanese for the saying Father Ferreira mentions? I can hear the ’山川’ but then he stops.
I think the saying is from China. We call it江山易改本性难移
Don’t worry guys, he gets revenge in Hacksaw Ridge
He doesnt tho...that's like the entire point of the whole movie...
Ok, very true
"The Japanese only believed in their distortion of our gospels so they did not believe at all, they've never believe." - This is such a great line and point in how stories can be distorted simply through the difference in culture and language. And it's back and forth between broken languages, not just from English to another language but vice versa.
This movie has a Sith Lord, a Jedi Master and Spiderman
The guy that plays the translator for the padre played kakihara in.ichi the killer
That line by Liam Neeson sums up perfectly the strict cultural mindset of the Japanese instinct of trying to keep out foreign influences “This country is a swamp! Nothing grows here! Plant a sapling here and the roots rot!” in other words Japan has historically been a nation highly resistant to change, not immune to it mind you, as history has clearly proven. Immune and resistant are two different things. Nevertheless considering how quickly they reverted back to militarism during the 1930s it is extremely likely that they never would’ve even become the current form of democracy that they are now if America hadn’t forced it on them at the end of World War II. If you want to see an anime film that explores the political side of that mindset, about the difficulty of change, a film that seeks to analyze it and understand it better then I highly recommend the 1999 masterpiece Jinroh: The Wolf Brigade by Matsume Shiro, the genius behind the 1995 cyber punk film Ghost In The Shell. Jinroh is a self critique about Japanese society set in the early postwar era during the the late 50s and early 60s, seen through the eyes of an increasingly depressed and disillusioned member of the Japanese special forces. The director meant the film as an exploration of the pack mentality and it’s effect on conformity in his home country and how he believes it directly affects the Japanese psyche. The film is ultimately the director’s way of articulating his frustration regarding his belief that “Japan is an overly conformist society, incapable of change even when times warrant it.” If you ever get a chance to watch it I highly recommend it. Gives you a really good insight into his perspective on how he views his society.
It’s an overall theme with East Asian countries to be highly conservative and resistant to change. In Asia, ancestors are honored and even deified. This is in sharp contrast to the west, especially post Enlightenment where the ancestor is viewed as ignorant and primitive. That’s the reason the west was able to advance far more technologically over the east. The east resisted change while the west welcomed and even desired it.
Jinroh is an awesome anime!
@@flowerchild8450
Exactly. People try to exalt the novel and denigrate the traditional, yet time and time again, history proves that tradition is prosperity. Not liberal materialism.
Japan is a good example but let's also look to Pharonic Egypt.
A civilisation that stood for more time than any other, a sum of 3000 years, did so because it valued tradition, held fast to those traditions, and nearly eradicated from history the one reformer/heretic they ever had.
Minutemen Revival I think Japan is the example of the opposite. They gave up much of their traditional values in order to advance economically, technologically, and militarily. For example, the entire samurai caste was removed in favor of western style military system and industrialization replaced traditional artisanship. In fact, the reason Japan was able to defeat China and become the main dominant power in Asia was because they adopted western technologies and military strategies much earlier than China, who only began to reform their centuries old military equipments after their defeat during the Opium Wars, where their naval and land forces were utterly destroyed by the better equipped and better trained British forces. If Japan had done the same as China and held on to their conservative values, they would have ended up the same as China, split up and controlled by foreign powers.
@@gamer7916
They haven't let go of their traditional culture though. The structure of a military has little impact on the minds of the people, but culture does. They haven't submitted fully to the demands of neoliberal globalism. They let the US advance them technologically after the war but they're not so far up the wazoo that their populace is
This movie describes the failure of Christianity in Japan. But that is not the whole truth. Many missionaries were indeed successful, and still are today. Whereas those who died for the faith are at peace with God.
For religion it is but
Not really a failure, for a Christian, suffering and persecution and death because of faith is a success
the thought "believe in him or else die and burn in hell forever" is wrong. It's more of like "Believe in Me so you can be saved from Satan"
God wants us to choose Him, take Him and believe in Him so we can be saved. Ever since Adam and Eve, God wanted Adam/Eve/Man to choose Him by placing the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden. The devil forced/tricked man to eat the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God doesn't force people to choose Him, if He does then He is not God at all.
Satan is condemned to Hell, everything that wishes to go with Satan will surely go with him. It's not a condition but a choice.
why put a tree in Eden if he didnt want anyone to touch it?
And what is deemed success in the eyes of Christians? When they assimilate everyone to see god only the way they do? Biggest fallacy, historically riding the coat tails of imperialism these missionaries were. Let others be and realize there are many ways to practice faith. Blinded by the light.
Japanese and Korean Christians are not the same as western ones, I see these mental cases around new years with their yellow signs telling us we are going to hell. Its one cult among many over there.
I really liked this movie.
"It is not necessary to win anyone over to one side or the other" - So why are they violently stamping out Christianity?
Because Christianity inherently wishes to become the dominant religion in whatever population it inhabits. That was the nuance in the movie. Western religions don't share.
Eventually, Christianity would have been used to usurp and destabilize Japan. The resulting peasant revolt would then 'westernize' the nation towards European values, and thus weaken Japan towards capitulation to a Nation.
The Emperor, along with anyone else that plays the game of Diplomacy realizes this.
@@carlosgonzalez2706 thats not true, it never sought that in India, not in China either, or in post war Japan. You're repeating a prejudice that puts Christians in danger in many parts of the world. In many parts of the world people wanted missionaries to come to convert them, e.g. New Zealand.
@@denverbritto5606
Right, never. Just ignore;
The Moplah rebellion
The Shimabara rebellion
The Taiping Rebellion
The Morisco Rebellion
The Muslim rebellion of 1862
And on and on. But sure, NEVER have religions been used to subdue and replace bodies of government.
@@denverbritto5606 Religion has always been called the opiod of the masses.
A tool used by those in power to quell and control those too poor or too uneducated to know any better. Jesus may have had a message of piece and pacifism, but Christian Leaders have one of subservience and domination.
The Abrahamic god, like all gods are the first memes. Social glue giving large swathes of otherwise disconnected people a common ground.
@@carlosgonzalez2706 the european christians were anti-taiping rebellion, moplah had nothing to do with christianity, shimabara was in response to anti-christian persecution, you're clutching at straws mate. The others are all to do with islam as well. Of course religion was sometimes a tool to gain power, but it was often not. Christian principles have become universal principles, easy with that opiate talk Karl Marx.
I was disappointed the movie didn't go into more of a debate between Christianity and Buddhism, whether one needed a god/gods, and whether salvation/liberation was achieved through correct faith and deeds of righteousness or through the extinction of personal cravings. In short, I wish there was more of a debate between Abrahamic and Eastern religion in the movie.
Shinto is the main religion of Japan rather than Buddhism
The Japanese inquisitor didn't believe that religion was evil so Buddhism vs Christianity isn't important to the movie. He believed that Christianity would be used as a catalyst for foreign invasion. Basically thought that a Hawaii scenario would play out. Eventually America and other nations did bring the Navy but they only cared about extortion and not religion.
In the end, they have only themselves to blame for trying to force their culture upon another. Because religion serves as power and controls the masses.
That first encounter is so riveting. "Our Buddha is a being which man can become, something greater than himself". This is where Padre had no response because he doesn't understand the Buddhist faith. Once an individual realises that materialistic desire only causes suffering and pain, he can embark on a personal journey through prayer and meditation to overcome the illusion of material reality. This is the point at which Nirvana and self-liberation is reached. Its an entirely personal commitment. What the Christian missionaries were doing is clinging to their illusions, of believing they are doing Gods work of preaching the gospel and they will get rewarded with heavenly eternal life in the afterlife , the more people they "save". It might appear as a noble cause but ultimately it is selfish and "materialistic" which brings themselves along with the peasants, pain and suffering.
Its also ironic padre retorted that a Buddha can die therefore he is not the creator but didnt Jesus die also?
Buddha is still dead. Jesus defeated death and sin and is alive today.
asano-san's english is believable.
It's not a religious debate :) The shogunate official's argumentation is reduced to : ''Apostatise! It's so simple''
Movie is raw and i read the book before this movie ever was. It’s wild because buddhism was brought to Japan via Korea and later influxes from China.
But buddhism existed alongside shinto, it never tried to replace it.
1:09 a being which man can become
This scene is so much better in the film than the book. The Interpreter in the book is a two-dimensional Buddhist supremacist who indignantly spouts Mahayana theology without understanding any of it. His film counterpart is much smarter and much more equanimitous...and all the more menacing for it.
"Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know." - Tao Te Ching
The interpreter's own realistic experience and intuition had understood what powerful illusions Rodrigues lived in. Yet the interpreter didn't set much of an example himself either since he was a cruel enforcer for the Shogunate (Like a political commissar). The striking contrast between the two is which reality the other has accepted, but neither knew their true faith, which I think is ones' own identity.
If they didn't want to apostatize, was finding a way back to Europe; thereby not having to convert their faith; not an option for Rodriguez and the other priests.
This movie makes it so that APOSTASY or EXECUTION are the only options once your in Japan.
I mean they are kinda stuck there.
This film was very good.
Shame people associate Scorsese with mafia and crime films when his scope is great.
Bizarre that Japan almost could've stayed like this into the modern day.
........I wish Americans were more in tune with the natural world. There’s a lot of beauty we all are devastating daily.
There would be no
*A N I M E*
@@RustinChole what does that have to do with anything in this convo thread?
@TrapLordHodor He's lowkey right tho
They would’ve changed one way or another. They’d either change willingly or be forced to change as was the case with China
This movie is quite interesting and convincing their deeds are truly evil but it's also describing their cause as convincing and it's not just irrational savagery. What he and inquisitor said actually i agree with them i'm also east asian🇰🇷 which persecuted catholic by our former dynasty. And i have buddhist parents and i'm an atheist. Consequently christianity didn't bloom in Japan forever. And what belief so called christianity looks distorted when we see it honestly. And buddhism ppl here believe it bcuz we have our passion and culture in it. We have our own creed. Of course their persecution was unbearably horrible but isn't that happening all around the world? In europe catholics persecuted protestantism, england persecuted every other christianity but anglican church, arabs persecuted christians even the level of brutality differs, spain persecuted islam and judaism. Vietnam persecuted Islam and hinduism. It's the challenge when two different world and two different truths collide. No matter what agenda goes travel, it will happen. The point is how we act when the challenge comes. There's no answer
The Japanese are still like this, they aren't that dogmatic about religion. I tried to explain Christianity to a Japanese friend and it sounded absolutely bizarre to him because just about everything has a kami over there. The idea of an exclusive religion was beyond his experience.
Any religion sounds crazy to someone who wasnt indoctrinated into it.
@@matthewkearney9044 New information is just old information presented to new people, and even everything you know now has been taught to you one way or another, if the religious can be indoctrinated into believing in one thing, then so can you.
You can even be indoctrinated that religion is terrible concept too and that you should stay away from it.... we're all teachers in our own way, but only few have the best intentions.... it's not truly indoctrination though when you read that some of these religions have verses in their passages that encourage them to seek truth.
@@denniswilkerson5536
Yes, it is indoctrination when you take your impressionable child to religious ceremonies and raise them in that environment.
You claiming I was indoctrinated to dislike religion is incorrect. I eventually realized how contradictory, factually incorrect, and immoral religions are on my own.
Do you have evidence for the existence of your immoral god?
So much ego, I sense
Because it IS utterly bizarre! You can only swallow it if you grew up with it.
"arrogant"
"which means he'll eventually fall"
meaning a less arrogant priest would not apostatize. Also means the inquisitor has met priests that refuse to apostatize. The inquisitor really did understand the priests culture more than they did his. The inquisitor isn't torturing the priests for their faith. He's torturing them for their arrogance.
Pride comes before every fall
No pride, no falling
I need to see this movie.
Question for the history buffs, despite father Fierra saying he was to make Rodriguez give up the faith, was he correct when he talked about the Japanese believing in the distortion of their religion (about the sun etc) or part of the deception
There were distortions because the earliest missionaries unfamiliar with Japanese language and religion asked the Japanese if they had a single god with three aspects, and when told that this was called "Dainichi" didn't realize the Japanese were referring to a specific Buddha. So the Jesuits initially preached that they were spreading the message of Dainichi, and the Japanese at first thought the Jesuits were followers of an unknown Buddhist religion from India due to both the confusion of terms for their god and the presence of Indian sailors on the ships that brought the missionaries to Japan. When the Jesuits realized what was happening they quit saying Dainichi and started using "Deus" instead.
The "son" and "sun" mixup is inaccurate because while the words sound identical in English, in Portuguese and in Japanese they sound nothing alike. "Filho" and "sol" in Portugese, "musuko" and "taiyo" in Japanese. The book "Deus Destroyed" is a great read on the rise and fall of Christianity in Japan.
@@TheHozoneLayerIt was actually an unintended pun because Dainichi in Japanese is read as 大日, which literally translates to “great sun”. The term is used to refer to both Vairocana, the dharmakaya (essentially the “true form”) of the Gautama Buddha, as well as the Shinto sun goddess Amaterasu. Crucially, it was generally understood that Vairocana and Amaterasu were two interpretations or aspects of the same entity, and that there was no contradiction in the same name being used for both. Like you mentioned, it was initially believed that the Jesuits were preaching of yet another aspect of Dainichi that did not conflict with the existing understanding. When Liam Neeson’s character points to the sun, he is both referring to the “Sun of God” (Dainichi as the sun goddess Amaterasu) and the “Son of God” (Dainichi as Deus or Jesus).
This is truly a movie about the human condition, not religion.
The Japanese Actor *I don't know his name but seen him in other films* Bears A Very Striking Resemblance To Pat Morita *in his younger days* If They Were To Make A Karate Kid Prequel Origin Spin Off Of Mr. Miyagi I Could Totally See This Actor Playing Him.
I understand Nelson's point of view how Japan sees it. But Romans has been in it first, India, Turkey, every gentile was an Alien to the gospel. Japan is no excuse
Ugh. I mean your antiquated ideas are cute, but equally dangerous and gross.
Is it right to try and convert them, though? If they're already content in the religion they already have, what right do missionaries have to spread their own? Especially when it has already led to social upheaval and suffering.
@@wellthatwasdaft Sure. But, evidently not all Japanese are content enough with Buddhism. There's a slew of Christian Japanese in the film. It's also worth considering that an apartheid state is only using "stability" as some warped justification for their mass killings, and social control. It's nuanced, which leads to these fruitful discussions I'm seeing about the film. (Not saying the colonialism of the Portuguese is justified, by the way).
@@wellthatwasdaft Um yes? Do you get bent out of shape having Muslims try to preach outside the middle east too?
Missionaries have every right to preach. And locals have the right to choose to listen or not. If they are content with their faith and don't wish to change or if they find no personal attachment to the foreign faith, then they can go on about their business.The vast majority of persecuted christians in Japan were Japanese natives. People who willingly converted to Christianity. Their own lords then murdered them for making that choice.
So glad in "Freedom for" and "Freedom from" religion if you choose.
“It is not necessary to bring one side to another when there is so much to share”
A major point of the story that everyone seems to miss 🤦♂️
“May God have mercy on you?”
“Which God?”
The point of this scene is not to illustrate Rodriguez’s strong faith, but to highlight his ignorance and unwillingness to learn.
Rodriguez has fallen into the sin of pride. He is too prideful to understand other perspectives, he believes he is a moral authority but in reality he is sacrificing others for his faith.
Do you think Jesus would do that or want others to do that in his name?
It’s in his humbleness, that he decides to stop the violence in order to save others
“They’re dying for you” fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
"You created illusions and call them faith."
That's the difference between praying and meditation. One is speaking, the other is simply watching.
As an european raised, i had no clue about buddhism real term. When finally understood, i just realized how different i was thinking about it. These two worlds were meet inside of me.
Japanese man: *Tries to explain Buddhism* Rodrigues: “Buddha was only a man, like all men. He is not the creator.” Imagine going to someone else’s country and telling them their religion is wrong and try to impose your religion as if it were the fact of life.
Buddhist don’t believe that Buddha is the creator chap.
@@NedWasHere94 Where did I say that?
@madscientist 666 That’s not the point. The point is the absurdity of going to someone else’s country and telling them their beliefs are false, while simultaneously implementing your own beliefs when none asked for them.
@@NedWasHere94 This only further illustrates the point that the Jesuits were ignorant of the local religion and culture. It is true that no Buddhist posits the Gautama Buddha as the creator or master of the universe and mankind in the way the Abrahamic faiths do for their God. However, this is beside the point. As the interpreter pointed out, in Mahayana Buddhism a Buddha is not a god in the way understood by the Jesuits, but an enlightened being that anyone is capable of becoming if they are able to overcome their worldly connections. The main tenets of Buddhism are largely a personal commitment, and the ultimate goal is not to receive some larger reward, but to achieve a higher understanding.
This willful ignorance of the Japanese religion and worldview also influenced the way Rodrigues is treated. Unlike the Jesuits who outright refused to learn anything about the local religion, the inquisitors are intimately familiar with how Rodrigues views his own faith. While professing to live in the example of Jesus, he and the other Jesuits refuse to live among the people they preach to and understand their ways. Furthermore, for much of the movie Rodrigues constantly seeks his own martyrdom in order to save the prosecuted Christians out of an implicit desire for his own glory and to achieve the Heaven his religion promises. Instead, the inquisitors repeatedly persecute converts in his presence unless he apostasizes. Rodrigues’ motivation is inherently selfish, as he is repeatedly shown willing to allow innocents to suffer in order to satisfy both his own ego and his personal desire for eternal paradise promised to him by his religion. This motivation is about as far removed from the example set by Jesus in the New Testament as one can get.
@@TheKalihiMan That’s a lot of words for “the Japanese government tortured and murdered people for having a different religion.”
I really want a silent 2016 full movie but I cant get it coz I cant find a full movie on you tube
Jesus Christ: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The creator of the universe has dibs on everything in this manufactured reality, so then surely know what Truth is, and it is himself
And so the further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who proclaim it
If you have a religion that tells you that the truth is mysterious and is impossible to find, it might not be the right one, and it's likely not true, but a creator of the universe would know everything about his creation right?
Mortal man......with his/her limited knowledge, power, and strength.....frail tissue, a bag of blood and bone held together in a human shell.....trying to comprehend The Living God - El Elyon - The God Most High, the Creator of the Universe.
The Bible says in John 4:24 - "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth"
My dear friends, I am deeply saddened to read some of the comments here. Man has always tried to paint a picture of God, but can the mortal define the immortal?
People throughout the ages have tried to define God according to their beliefs, their narrow viewpoint.
Everything comes from God. Amazing as it may sound, even the desire to know God comes from God, so that no man may boast.
For it is written in Matthew 22:14 - "For many are called, but few are chosen."
Few are chosen, because many in their pride fail to see the truth, even if it is right in front of them.
Humble yourself and seek God, and I guarantee you will find Him.
God works on a one-on-one basis. It is a personal relationship. Not religion or whatever else you might be tempted to call it.
God The Loving Father is so amazing and I am in awe and humbled by the fact that He loves me so dearly.
It is written in Psalm 34:8 - "Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him" I can testify to the fact: that this is true. I have tasted and seen in my life - that The Lord is Good!!!
I am so Blessed to be living a life that is full of His Tender Mercy and, most importantly, the constant Love. It is truly an amazing life to live.....knowing that you are so deeply loved and cared for....and that we can hope for life eternal.
I wish we could have time to discuss in greater detail......for now, for your own sake.....please watch Pastor Ken Peters video - "I saw the tribulation".
Please watch this video with an open mind. This is not a money-making tactic, forcible conversion, recruitment, or anything of the sort.
For those, who spew forth profanity and slander, with no respect for God or man, please remember:
It is written in Galatians 6:7 - "God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
God Bless to one and all.....hope to see you on the other side.
Maranatha - Come Lord Jesus!!!
Provide evidence for your beliefs if you are trying to convince someone to belief your nutty religion.
Japanese dodge,
Wise move,
I found this movie to be extremely powerful, but it bother me more than most horror films. It's a terrific movie, but I have found it very difficult to enjoy.
He has a particular set of skills
liam neeson has been converted. The man to the right, the asian man, has more wisdom than liam neesons character. He is fully converted. He is not underestimating the wisdom of intelligence of the japanese like i first thought. Underestimate them in the way the he thinks they only worship nature and cant think of metaphysics. He is converted. He is japanese now. And he thinks like them. Thats the message here. Liam neeson is speaking a new perspective.
To say the japanese culture is mans original nature? thats pure conversion.
"My religion makes more sense than yours" 😂
So what I don't get is why they translated Son of God to the sun rather than the familial title of son? Ya know, like progeny?
Because that part didn't really happen. The words son/sun aren't even similar in Portugese or Japanese.
Dainichi (or Vairocana) is actually the supreme deity in Japanese Buddhism (especially Tendai), which was then identified with Amaterasu, the supreme deity in Shinto, after Buddhism was introduced into Japan, so it is quite reasonable why Japanese identified God/Deus in Christianity with Dainichi cause it is also a supreme deity. Also, Son of God is just one out of three persons in the trinity so...
Japanese are traditionally Shinto not Buddhists
It got mixed together a lot varying by region.
If you wish to persuade monks who are stewards of land and property or warriors who are men of worldly duties and admired by the common people for the austere and manly virtues of knighthood embodied by their vocation, don't send a priest or argue with them like Jesuits, send Templars or Hospitallers and let their eyes judge a form of thy faith lived in daily practice by men in service of an earthly lord in service of their heavenly emperor. But that would require Western men of sterner inner stuff than missionary priests, Portuguese sailors or perfumed Dutch merchants.
0:38
How can you even hate Japanese food
At the time, it was less soy sauce and onigiri, and more rotten fish fermented in rice.
Have a functional palette.
@@carlosgonzalez2706 oh damn I forgot about that
@@tomshue9630 Buddhism doesn't actually prohibit meat.
Arigataya for up loading.
“JOHN 14:6” “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”, “John 3:16
King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”, “Romans 6:23
King James Version
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”, “REVELATION 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”, reply for a conversation about this or prayer petitions! God bless your souls and may He save you and your loved ones in Jesus name! May God have mercy on humanity in Jesus name
Viva la Nuestra Señora Dainichi Amaterasu.🇯🇵☀️👩🏻
Praise be Jesus Holy Name every knee shall bend Never deny or step of His Holy face. A thousands deaths first.
This movie has always unsettled me as a Christian in that it seems that the situation in Japan is hopeless in terms of Christianity actually working. However there are a few points in have noticed.
1. The actual missionaries are sent by the Catholic Church. I know I have brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church but more often than not it seems Catholics hold the ceremony over the love Jesus taught. Ultimately we end up in this strange situation where images of Christ and his mother are held as sacred. When in reality they aren’t.
2. It is so strange to hear the Daimyo talk about Buddhism and the path to divinity. Yet the way it is treated even in Japan today is something kind of just tied to being Japanese. Yet, they forsake the actual doctrines. Him bringing up Buddhism and the Japanese way of life has nothing to do with spiritual beliefs but rather maintaining a level of control over people and his own situation. Yet, Buddhism itself was once foreign to Japan.
3. Yet, here we are. We have people being tortured to death because their allegiance isn’t to the Shogun. A man told to abandon his beliefs or else they will be killed and it’s “his fault.” It is backwards in the sense that the man telling him to submit seems to just ignore key aspects of even Buddhist doctrine and will sit there watching people die with zero issue. Yet the way he talks makes him seem like the voice of reason. Like… can you imagine someone holding someone hostage and threatening to kill the hostage unless you change your faith.
4. In a sense Neason’s character is correct that you can’t really discount a cultures language and cultural values when you share the gospel. The gospel may challenge those values but ultimately that is something the new believers will need to wrestle through. Even Jesus says render under Ceaser’s what is Ceaser’s. So paying taxes is important. Yet, the way it is treated here, it almost seems like they are claiming that the Japanese citizens are property of Japan. Jesus said to render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s, people though are not property. Though this is something that has been a running issue in human history in general.
5. Japan in a sense is correct in that the European countries would use missionaries to infiltrate countries. People tend to mix the motives of church and governments with the motives of the Gospel. That’s just not the case. I guess in that case, I could say that would be the same case with Buddhism and the Shogunate. They didn’t care about Buddhism because it didn’t threaten government affairs at the time. So that’s why he had zero issues using it to combat the missionaries faith. Yet by his own beliefs he fails because executing innocent people already taints his path to Nirvanah.
Buddhism actually sounds reasonable
That's coz it is.
yay, another believer ; - )
It really is extremely reasonable
It is a belief that allows and encourages the students to surpass the master.....
So what do you think?
You...that....this actually makes sense :^/
LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE Lesson learned.