The Peloponnesian War: Athens vs. Sparta (Context and Overview)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- In this lecture, I cover Greek history from 478-404 BCE with an emphasis on the Peloponnesian War. This is intended as a primer on the topic and I devote more time to establishing the context and causes of the war than I do going through the details of conflict itself.
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fun fact: Thucydides was the first written record of the theory of innoculation after having plague. He had it himself and noticed survivors seemed immune. And he writes as though he is thinking it through not repeating previous knowledge.
Not quite. He observed that people who had the infection and survived, if caught a second time do suffer as badly. It is a far cry from inoculation (one n) the term not being introduced for hundreds of years. He contends that it is possibly divine punishment because even when Athenian soldiers left the city to go on raid they came down with it, yet he does not report that the Spartans who are in the field come down with it. And the what plague that hit Athens in 429 BCE is still not conclusively identified. There is an excellent online article on the plague from National Geographic.
The Peloponnesian War is probably the best counter to the idea that history is written by the winners
Yes, more accurate saying would be History is written by the side that writes the most.
The Spartans like to be different
Bro, that's accurate af. Never though about it before.
@@Vodgepie1 The Spartans are of course the most obvious exception, but even the other Anti-Athenian states never produced their side of the story. Thebes and Corinth had more of a hand in starting a war with Athens than Sparta, and yet we must gleam their side of the story from the hated Athenian POV. The Thebans were dismissed as the 'Boetian Swinherd', but Corinth had an intellectual base that came close to Athen's standard. I'm incredibly grateful Thucydides and Xenophon have survived to the present day, but I'd love to hear for once just how the victors wrote the history. It's akin to having no real source on WW1 other than a firsthand German one.
I mean if the loser can still write, then he'll write.
I hereby solemnly swear that I will never ever buy anything from or be influenced in any way by these extremely annoying ads on youtube. Amen.
"The Peloponnesian War was a protracted struggle and attended by calamities such as Hellas had never known within a like period of time. Never were so many cities captured and depopulated, some by barbarians, others by Hellenes themselves fighting against one another. And several of them, after their capture, were re-peopled by strangers. Never were exile and slaughter more frequent, whether in the war or brought about by civil strife." -Thucydides, History of The Peloponnesian War
I'm reading Thucydides right now. I've made it to the 1-year armistice in 423 AD, shortly after Brasidas' capture of Amphipolis in Thrace.
So far, the Athenians have been the stronger side overall. Athenians are on the offensive all over the place while the Spartans are mostly playing defense. The Spartan general Brasidas is trying to change the tide of the war but the Spartans refuse to send him reinforcements because they are jealous of his success. What a joke! Spartans are overrated imo.
Invading Attica every year won't win the war.
I believe I have watched around a dozen of your videos in the last week and all of them are spectacular. Keep doing what you're doing. It is first rate stuff. A heartfelt 'thank you' on behalf of all of the serious history nerds for whom life got in the way.
Great timing, Thersites. I have a midterm tomorrow
For all enthousiasts; I can strongly advise Historyden for a sublime summary of the Peloponnesian wars (and Punic wars) as addition to this fine lecture
I already saw that. Up to this point, Historyden is the only RUclips channel that has really made good content on the Peloponnesian War (at least that I am aware of). Hopefully Thersites can fix that!
Completely agree . history den is one of my favorites. Does a great job with the Peloponnesian War
@@kennethknoppik5408 oh boy H.D is epic
My first interest in classical history came from Donald Kagan's lectures of ancient Greece. I'm glad to see you covering this war as well. It had such large repercussions that I think are still felt even today. I'm not sure we would have ever seen Alexander without it. History may have developed in a totally different way.
Same here on the Donald Kagan lectures!
How are there no movies about Alcibiades?
Not exactly a good role model for kids to follow these days...
Exactly. This needs to be fixed.
Do the desperate military aggressions and foreign adventures of a dying Athenian empire sound familiar to anyone? 🤔
Ye, China
@@ofthecaribbean 🤦♂️
@@panagenesis2695 He’s right
@@panagenesis2695 America, China, and Russia are all dying empires focused on desperate foreign invasions and interference. The world is in a free-fall state.
@serbonresurrected816 You're right! Like Athens, the U.S. is traditionally a maritime (and aviary) empire. They are not a continental land power like Russia or China (i.e. like Sparta).
Well done sir! Aside from the usual mispronunciations (aigos potamoi =>egos potami).
The Persian gold as an important factor in Sparta's victory should be highlighted I think. Only with sustained and large Persian funding (channeled in no small part through Lysander and Cyrus the Younger's relatiionship) to rebuild and maintain their fleet, plus the skills of Lysander, could Sparta checkmate Athens.
The Persian motivation was clear, to weaken the nominal overlord of the Ionian cities, and a Greek hegemon far less powerful in the naval department replacing Athens was to their advantage. In the end the investment paid off massively for Persia with the Peace of Antalcidas.
This is absolutely baffling, this is my entry towards learning about Greek Antiquity with not truly understanding much about Sparta and Athens outside of what is barely taught in the education system. Initially I thought Athens was the morally superior and Enlightened underdogs while Sparta being the "angry grandpa" of the Greek world. This completely changes my outlook, Athens was the hot headed, yet brilliant invaders and Spartans being the unwilling yet honorable fighting force. I didn't know Korinth had it's hand in bringing Sparta into the War but it was Athen's doing.
@Atheos B. Sapien Also weird how some need to couch historical conflicts as being "good guys" vs "bad guys".
@@Buttato99 Well i think typically people just view the aggressors as bad guys
What got me was how a democratic power, while surrounded by jealous and hateful enemies...could take a alliance ment for fighting for freedom...and turn it into a personal quest for ultimate power , or how they could listen to a war- like playboy 🤔 and attack an ally ( for personal gain) while in the middle of a so called peace with a powerful enemy.
@@bigalsnow8199 a democratic power in the ancient world let's not forget. No matter how loftily people write about it, it's never going to approach the standards of peaceful democracies today. The flux of power was much more erratic and war was on everybody's mind, basically no generation got away without having to be directly involved in war, and always at the bottom fearing death, destruction and slavery for your loved ones.
In saying that, even today democracy is not much of a barrier against great powers doing really bad shit. In my opinion great powers will always push for more, and necessarily with worse terms for those on the other side. They sometimes slowly, but always eventually take too much, and people can be pushed so far before even now we have to go at it.
I think the thing that has changed the most is the scale of conflict and the potential consequences, we are more fearful of going to war and more civilised generally with brilliant cooperative and governmental systems, but I think the only thing either rulers / tyrants or a democratic people respond to is realpolitik, 'can we get away with taking more, having things easier, exploiting others?' if the answer is yes they usually do, now it's more subtle and slow and not to the depth and frequency of barbarity as in the past, but there are deep parallels imo
@@bigalsnow8199 Being a democracy doesn't mean you are an inherently moral government. Literally no one wrote fondly about Athens back then: it was called corrupt, ineffective or imperialist and most of its supporters hated its enemies more than they hated Athens. Democracy was seen as mob rule up until WW2 where it was redefined to apply to representative democracies. To further turn things on its head, there are people back then that said that Sparta of all people, helots and all, was the guarantor of freedom against Iran. And to further muddy the waters, Iran was far more progressive than the Greeks, slavery under Iran was pretty limited and there wasn't as much stigma towards women and non-Iranians in Iran like there was in Greece.
History is pretty grey and there's actually a debate about whether Athen's reliance on slavery and colonies might've been crucial to giving citizens more free time to actually partake in the democracy, meaning they might've needed the empire to be democratic.
Sparta took money from Persia to wage war against Athens!!! WTH?!
Greeks often fought on behalf of Persia, either as mercenaries, or as polites against other Greeks if their interests aligned with those of Persia.
Sparta use metal coinage, some kind of fiat currency that not acceptable outside Sparta. To get silver they fight as mercenary, kinda like ancient Swiss.
Another amazing video from Thersites! I actually recently uploaded my own summary video of the Athens vs Sparta conflict causes!
The last frame is titled "Flute Girls," and yet you withhold the flute girls.
Underrated comment
Hey Thersites, if you had to pick a favourite would it be Athens or Sparta? One reason why would also bewelcomed lol
I just found this channel and I’m already in love. I hope you continue to produce videos of equal quality to this one. I’m like in tears this shit is beautiful
A navy, any navy takes a huge cost to maintain, deploy and train for.
Listening to history and playing Minecraft.
I feel like this is totally made up.
Not the "Argonussy" 😂
I knew JESUS wasn't real another one of my ancestors
I always see some wack ass comment like this under history videos and i am never quite sure exactly what they mean.
Aigospotami @42:30 "Athenian survivors had to go home" there were almost no survivors! (In)famously Lysander executed the thousands of captured Athenians after the battle.
Alcibiades won and lost the war
Thersites can you elaborate on the "non monetized" spartan society at this point?
I think the best compliment I can give is, "If you ever wanted to know and understand classical roman history or classical greek history and you didnt have the time to devote your entire life to academic pursuits, watch these videos."
I do really love the combination of ancient history, and contemporary words. I think is genius👍👍👍
Darmok and Jalad 10:25
What was that group of Veteran Warriors in an army and they are used as backups? The name was something foreign so I can’t google it. I thought it was during these times.
I'm not sure. Are you thinking of the Roman triarii, by chance?
@@ThersitestheHistorian yes thank you! The Triarii, I’ve been trying to remember that name since I heard about them a while ago. Really cool
"Sparta helped Thebes prevail at Tanagra..."
I believe you are thinking of Darmok and Jilad...
😁
5:50
It was Spartans who had come to oust the tyrant Hippias (Delphi oracle told them) after which democracy was established
Hi. Which university do you teach in?
Hey Thersithes, do you think the Greeks were a truly unique and great society as they are often seen in modern scholarship or do you see this as a result of them having embraced literacy so much and determening the literal record?
I'd love to learn why the modern world is based in part on old Greece and Rome.
@@TheKing-qz9wd Literacy.
@@orpheusepiphanes2797
Dude. Other folks had books and stuff.
Wait wait wait, Athens and Corinth are creating high quality pottery for export? Were the Greeks pot collectors? Wouldn’t the stuff inside the pots be more valuable?
Rich people will always pay a premium on luxury goods.
Just to answer your question the way you framed it, think of it like a safe. If you have very expensive things you want to protect, you want to have the best safe on the market right? In a similar manner, if you have Grade A vino you don't want to store it in some off-brand pot that is clunky and chips easily and every time you set it down the crack on the side gets bigger and you suspect it's giving off-flavors to the wine. However, what you see here is an example of comparative advantage. The athenians and corinthians, for whatever reason, are better at making high-quality pottery. Maybe it's the clay, maybe it's the type of water or the mineral content or maybe it's just the culture and local pride, but for whatever reason, their pottery is the best. The reason they'll export it is because they want things like cheese and figs. If they want wood for ships, they have to trade for it, which is why they export their pottery, because in exchange, they receive all the other goods they're not so great at producing.
Within the greek world, you'll trade pottery to cyprus for copper. You'll trade it to Mende or Lesbos to get the finest wine. Abroad, if you want papyrus you go through Egypt. Gold, iron, ivory, all come from distant lands as well. It shouldn't be taken for granted that a lot of greek pottery tells a story, so in a lot of ways, it's kind of cool and braggy to show off to people, "Yeah this shit right here is Athenian bro, I just traded for it last week. Check it out, it tells the story of that one time, when Zeus and Hera were mad at each other..."
I'll happily the Polis next door for good amphorae to export my wine and olive oil in - Do you honestly think Coca-Cola makes their own bottles?
lol this was before plastic dude, people needed vessels to store their food and liquids in.
Guys talk about DUNE
You're spoiling us too much, Mr. Thersites.
Great work indeed, i have been watching all your videos on hellenic history and it has been more than i asked for, thanks for the effort.
u Albinos ain't that much different from me ur grandpa
Great summary. You make some excellent points.
Another great video!
ROME VS GREECE = Quam velim mori in hic proliem servus?
Some visual aids might go a long way to keep interest in your videos
This is absolutely perfect for listening to while lifting and doing my conditioning
I prefer metallica, lol. But his channel has great details!
Oh dawg pronouncing "Archidamus" and "Chersoneses" wit the soft "CH", c'mon...
My Like and Comment to help the channel
Why don't we (you) talk about cattle, or sheep or goat. raiding as a motivating factor? Let's talk about loot baby! Let's talk about you and me!
Dude, you have no clue as to what your talking about.
Hey Thersites, great content! RUclips is turning me into a armchair historian and I love it! I always regretted not taking more History courses in college. The couple I took were awesome. Now, I can just hop on RUclips an watch an improved version of a college course at my leisure. Thanks again!
The City of Athena versus the City of Ares...
Sparta actually worshipped their own version of Aphrodite... Which just so happens to be very close to Athena
I wish that athenian plague never happened :(
Who want dey Arginusai ate? Sorry.
Damn Thersites hit us with his most sultry intro voice
Cant find the followup vid?
EXCELLENT! I have been preoccupied with world events the last two years and came across this. My only question is this- I assume your Primary Sources for your detailed lectures is the original Classical Greek material, correct(or original Classical Roman material)? I am referring to Primary Sources which are not among the "popularly known literature" of Classical Greek history. I am just curious as to how you paint a more nuanced detailed picture in your videos. Thanks!
If you are referring to more obscure primary sources, such as Diodorus Siculus and the findings of archaeology, then yes, I consider those things alongside of Thucydides and Xenophon.
@@ThersitestheHistorian I don't know of any credible sources which is qhy I asked. I did not know there was that much detail available!! Thanks!
So it’s basically like Habs vs. Bruins.
This is excellent thank you.
That was awesome! Thank you 👍
Great history. You sound a little like Tom Richey.
Bunch of bum lovers....
The Spartans were better
You have a euphonic voice and your meter is aesthetically rhythmic.
Great work man
U r wrong as Sholes
Articulation
You can't really know because you weren't there the best is an educational guess
I mean there’s a difference between extensive research and inference based on literary, archaeological, and scientific evidence and just guessing.
Flute Girls.
This channel is so underrated
Yep
Teacher: "you there! who won the peloponnesian war?"
Me: "umm....pelopponesians?"
Ц
It's BC
Spartans and Athenians: “I’m the master of Greece”
Macedon: “no, I’m the master of EVERYTHING”
Greeks fighting Persians: we stonk!!!💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
Greeks fighting Greeks: I screwed up again let’s have peace 😳
If you can't specify the year as BC, or AD or screen I won't watch video.
You are required to get the pronunciation correct if you are presenting this slice of history. Don’t be a snowflake, get it right.
Just found your channel, very excellent stuff and great quality. Ty
Never.grik.psema.
Sorry for being 2 years late, but if they weren't greeks, what were they?