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HOW TO SOLVE A PROBLEM LIKE JIREN? | A Dragon Ball Discussion | MasakoX
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- Опубликовано: 28 фев 2018
- With the final encounter approaching, Jiren has been pretty much summed up peaking with his origin story in Episode 127 of Dragon Ball Super. However, has it solved problems with his character or just created more of them? How has his time with Vegeta, Frieza, Goku and Android 17 changed him? What has been revealed about the guy from Universe 11? Let's review, discuss and have an analysis!
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I actually kinda like his backstory. Yes, the first half is obviously typical superhero/shonen backstory, but people seem to completely ignore the second half. It tells another typical shonen story of a young boy training to get stronger under a master, making friends along the way, and in the end coming together to fight the big bad. HOWEVER, it takes a dark turn and goes south from there. The shonen fails, the master falls (granted that's also typical), his friends all die or abandon him because they see their efforts as a lost cause or don't trust Jiren. It's the total opposite of what normally happens.
Jiren is a fallen shonen character. The power of friendship wasn't enough, believing in himself and his friends didn't work. If Jiren's story had proper time to be fully developed like it's own mini anime, it would have been fantastic! It'd be like the Madoka Magica of shonen stories! When you go into it knowing it's going to be tragic, that kind of kills the fanfare of it.
Granted, this sort of thing has probably been done before, but I personally have not found many stories that decide to go that route, especially when using it for a villain character.
Yeah. That's the missed opportunity here to me as well. Give us a mini-arc to see what he was like back then and have Jiren drop his 'too calm for that' attitude when the whole 'for my friends' thing comes up. When you present us with such a interesting parallel backstory and then just ignore it like that, it bugs me. If at some point in losing to Goku Jiren doesn't break down about the whole 'I can't allow my friends to have died for nothing' when faced with the prospect of losing to someone who didn't earn it. (Earn it as in lose what he lost to become strong, as Jiren sees it) It'll be disappointing.
Hell, why not reveal his wish is just to survive the erasure of his universe? That's it, he'd rather have his entire universe erased (thus destroying the one who killed those he cared about) then save anyone else or those they care about. You could easily parlay that into his god of destruction confessing to the crime just to get Jiren to spare the rest of the universe and give the audience some interesting bits to both of them.
Ayyy someone else who understands Jiren! I actually think Jiren is a more accurate foil character for Goku than Vegeta or Frieza, not that he doesn't bounce off of those two super well of course.
The problem with Jiren's backstory and character boils down to presentation. Toei is very guilty of wanting to have their cake and eat it too. At first, they wanted Jiren to essentially be a wrestling monster, a juggernaut who seems invincible. But, they barely had him fight at all, plus he would have run scarily close to being the new Broly, something they just barely averted with Kale by giving her, what else? a personality and a character arc. Now they want us to view him as something of a tragic figure, but the issue is that Toei spent so long keeping everything about him secret that, when they finally revealed his backstory, it's too little too late and much too generic to live up to their own hype.
After thinking about it for a while, if I were to diagnose a root cause for much of Super's problem, is that Toei's writing team seems to be convinced that the Earth stopped turning and that they are still in the mid-90's, obliviously trying to recapture the magic of Z as though unaware that the landscape of shonen anime has changed substantially in the two decades since Z's original ending, with modern shonen addressing many of Dragon Ball's weaknesses.
How much more effective and interesting would Jiren have been had they sowed some seeds beforehand? Instead of focusing so much on Kahseral in the prelude leading to the tournament itself, what if it had been Jiren disobeying Toppo's orders just to rescue that cat? What if just before leaving with the rest of the Pride Troopers, we saw Jiren overlooking a graveyard? There is a premise for a decent character buried in there somewhere, but Toei did not capitalize on it, and their approach with selling Jiren as a character has been nothing short of scattershot.
Shade Knight I would really like that. Just little hints about Jiren's character that when we learn about his, improved, back story we would be like "Oh that's why he is like that, that's really interesting".
Also I would love to see Jiren being superior(by probably eliminating a really strong character early on) and while being strong refusing to fight, unless necessary, and questioning both Goku's morals and Zenos' decisions and the Tournament itself
Let's hope the manga change the story or explain it in a better way
It feels more like they're stuck in the 80's if anything. I keep getting HnK vibes with the sudden almost nonsensical resolutions and character pivots. I'm not claiming DBZ was a work of narrative perfection, but it at least tried to hide some of the seams.
Its cuz the old fanboys cry about anything that doesnt stay in line to dbz. They want something new but just the same as the old thing, its not that they are stuck in the 90s or they wont change its they cant change. The dbz "fans" want it to be that way and will do anything to get the old dbz they never wanted to end back
I agree it is presentation but you are also forgetting timing. If the story was told the way it was... very early in the arc it probably wouldn't be as heavily criticized and we would be looking how his backstory informs his character now. Yet, because they have been hyping Jiren for what seems like forever, nothing short of an epic story or an entire backstory flashback would have sufficed.
I feel that Jiren called Toppo "pathetic" cause he saw Toppo turning his back on his beliefs as a sign of weakness.
Exactly.
You must use
-Farmer with a shotgun-
“Protect me, gun!”
- Shotgun Farmer
TopBunkProductions Famous last words
Rapido 546 👎
Rapido 546 G E T M A H G U N
But he looses half his power in the tournament, no weapons. Dammit toei that’s why that rule was made
*Jiren smacks Frieza so hard he is sent flying, and Frieza hits a floating boulder and snaps his neck, dying*
Grand Priest: Had that Kachi Katchin not been there Frieza would have lived. Jiren shall face no penalties!
But frieza is already dead
fl00fydragon doesn’t mean that the body he has now doesn’t have a neck to snap. Just means now he ain’t coming back.
*jiren snaps gokus neck, obliterates frieza and kills krillin*
Grand priest: all of these people have died before and can therefore be considered as people who are already dead anyway. Jiren shall receive no penalties!
I get the point of your comment but you may want to change it to he accidentally obliterates Frieza since there's no way Frieza would die from a broken neck, or a broken anything.
*Kale and Caulifla fuse*
Grand Priest: The use of Potara shall be allowed from this point on. Jiren shall receive no penalties.
I found out the way to defeat Jiren.
1. Get Yamcha into the ring
2. Let him die
3. Get Jiren disqualified.
Hope my advice saved your little fanboy/girl butts.
(For everyone who says my joke was unoriginal, I know it is. But listen, if you have nothing to say thats nice or funny about it, why even bother? It just makes you look bad.)
Bit-Bit Chan careful, the grand priest might say he killed himself like Android 17
Alex Schmitz Android 17 did kill himself. He self destructed to counter the blast
Would have been doing Yamcha proud until he realizes mid gut punch just before he dies that he was played rather exquisitely as a pawn.
Before the survival arc happen I thought that their where going to do that with &
Krillin
Bit-Bit Chan jiren is not that dumb that he can't control his power that might kill yamcha
"but masako" lmao I love when you do that
-so what's your wish jiren
-i want to kill itachi
-what??
-what??
ha.
*El Hermano
-So, what's your wish Jiren?
-I want to become the king of pirates and find One Piece
-........ok......
C Vox ahahahah... Wonder why this "Sasuke" hates 😅
I like the idea of having Jiren defending some of the weaker people from being picked on by stronger fighters that's out of their league. Maybe have him catch Krillin and beating the crap out of Frost for a bit before moving on to the next fight. Right now any notion of being a super hero is just that. True they be all erased anyway but Jiren giving the little guys a chance to shine would be neat.
Now THAT would've been an interesting wrinkle to Jiren!
I like Jiren's apathy towards the gods and the ToP, not wanting to be involved, but playing into his superhero side more would be a very interesting What If for Masako to tackle.
Jiren's backstory isn't the problem. It's the fact that he's so boring NOW. The villain's past isn't what makes them compelling, it's their personality, of which Jiren has none. We spent 6 months waiting for him to appear with only 2 or 3 mentions of him and when he did show up, we spent another 6 months just waiting to hear him speak, only getting to see him OHKO people every few episodes with no effort.
Now we're here where they're trying to give him a character, make him speak more, giving him a backstory, etc. but it's far too late. I stopped being invested in Jiren by about 5 episodes into the actual Tournament because they didn't do anything with him apart from making him stand there and look cool. Yeah, we're supposed to be intimidated by his stature, his mere presence on screen and the way he can knock out a Legendary Super Saiyan with a small ki blast... but that's par for the course with Dragon Ball villains. We obviously expect them to be twice as strong as the previous guy.
Villains like Frieza or Zamasu or even Broly weren't loved by the fans because they could just sweep away the protagonists with little effort or that they had this big complex backstory. It's because of their personalities. Frieza's cockiness in that he's "The Strongest in the Universe", Zamasu's world view on how mortals destroy everything they touch and they should be wiped out, even Broly's mad sadism is far more compelling than Jiren just standing there saying one or two lines every episode on how no one can keep up with him.
Honestly, Toppo should have been the Final Boss here. He was far more compelling than Jiren and he had an arc of being this warrior of Justice who was faced with the extinction of his Universe slowly being worn down by the likes of Goku for setting up the tournament in the first place, Kale and Caulifla for knocking out most of his team and Frieza for just being and unbearable prick to the point where he gives up his morals to become a God of Destruction.
We're 3 or 4 episodes from the end of Super and all I can say about Jiren is "He's part of a Superhero team. He doesn't talk much. He's super strong. And everyone he loves is dead."
Hell even Trio de Dangers would have made better antagonists given their introduction in the exhibition, their Universe being the worst out of the 12 and Bergamo having a bone to pick with Goku for starting this whole tournament and yet nothing comes out of this. Instead we get this boring person because i refuse to use the word "character" when he has none that has no character traits, no goals, no cool design and nothing about him that stands out other than being "strong" which is one trait that EVERY villain has. It's like Toriyama created and shoved him into the story because Toppo wasn't enough and instead we get this guy who's stronger than his own God of Destruction because the show hasn't power escalated enough as it is and all the while forgetting to write anything that resembles a character for him.
I think the big problem with his backstory is that he doesn't show off positive traits that goes along with such a story. Like his disappointment with Toppo for giving up on his morals was a good step, but since then his backstory seems more like Prometheus than Batman. Just like Batman, lost everything. Unlike Batman, decides to only improve himself.
He never showed worried or sorrow of his other teammates eliminations. And he was pretty much talking down the Z-Fighters because he was stronger than them. It is a nice idea to try to add subtext, but at face value Jiren is just a guy who craves power. Only difference between him and any other villain is his motivation makes it seem its for good intentions.
The best Batman quote I remember is he does what he does is because he wants others to not suffer what he has, to not become what he became. Something Jiren shows no similar motivation as he thinks might is right.
AkumaTh Jiren went from "I am searching for what lies beyond strength" to "Strength is everything. Strength is absolute" lol
You're not "overthinking it." What you're doing is projecting. Like with the "colour theory" or that "Goku is being mind controlled" nonsense, you've built a narrative for yourself and are working backwards to fit it into the show proper, even when it doesn't really fit. Worse, even when it makes for a less compelling story. Yes, Jiren's backstory is basic in the extreme, but its implications are a solid foundation for character development. Hit's backstory wasn't any more exotic - he's an overpowered assassin, he's bored, here's Goku to make him work and remember he's alive. The same applies to Jiren. The anime was pretty clear that he doesn't care about anybody and refuses to form relationships because he's been hurt in the past at a young age. It's not exactly Machiavelli, but it's a real thing that real people who've gone through trauma or depression do feel. We're given an ostensibly neutral character whose mindset is so rigid that pushing him out of his comfort zone will either cause epiphany or breakdown - character progression, either way.
Decent storytelling doesn't need to be complicated. In fact, the more complicated your character's motivation is, the less compelling they are most of the time. Character complexity is based on how a character interacts with their environment, more so than how grandiose their flashbacks are.
Your jib.
I like the cut of it.
This comment deserves more upvotes. Finally someone that gets how important execution of the ideas is; any cliche/trope can be good if it's executed well, including Jiren.
Right, execution is the difference between a good story and a derivative one. We've seen as much in Super itself, such as the difference between 118 and 119 - both fairly simple episodes in their premise, but VASTLY different in terms of the quality of their execution.In my experience, Dragon Ball works best with simpler motivation, both for its heroes and its villains. The show's strengths don't come down to emotional complexity or elaborate schemes. They come down heroes and villains with deep but simple psychological issues, which heroes can overcome while villains are consumed by them.
Zamasu is a good example of this. His premise was simple - an inferiority complex, driving him murder all the "ningen" who make him feel so insecure. In the end, his obsession with proving his perfection to no-one in particular drives him into madness, mutation and eventual defeat. Trunks actually has a similar character arc in that Saga, as well. He's physically inferior and mentally spent, seeing no hope for survival but to come crying back to daddy. When the chips are down and his resolve is tested, however, he manages to overcome these feelings, rise to the occasion and be the hero we kind of knew he was. It wasn't always handled great, but in the end I thought it made for a decent story.
To go back to hit again, the same is true for him as well. His mental hang-up was utter apathy. When challenged, he would respond with irritation at the bother. When Goku challenged him for real, however, Hit overcame his melancholy and rise to the occasion in a similar way. It's why he was never really a villain - because his arc was that of a hero. In Dragon Ball (and really, in most of Shonen anime), the heroes are the ones with the stronger morals, from which their eventual superior power derives. They have the power of friendship, the power of love, the power of hard work and determination, that sort of thing. The villains, by contrast, have raw power in excess but lack the moral character to back it up. They eschew friendship, see love as a weakness, view hard work as a necessity rather than a virtue, etc.
In my eyes, Jiren is sort of in the middle between a hero and a villain. He lacks the moral strength to BE a hero, but not by deliberate choice. Rather, his current personality is a tragic case of sour grapes. Life dealt him a REALLY bad hand and never really offered him a relationship worth cherishing. Jiren's way of rationalising that was to then insist that NO relationship could EVER be worth cherishing, and you're all stupid for your friendships and marriages. Never let people close to you - they'll always hurt you and disappoint you. Conceal, don't feel.
I agree, especially about people overstressing the need for "complex" characters. The simple fact is that Jiren hit the right notes a lot, but like EVERYTHING IN SUPER, his character wasn't written to utilize his full potential.
that's how he deliberately let himself down when he tried to anticipate what the ending of super was going to be, " The grand priest will be evil and he will end up being the Main Antagonist in the end"
I would say super has time to expand on Jiren but...ITS OVER
We still have the manga.
Character analysis. Sleep.
Owari da.
Kabigon Gaming ITS NO USE
Not yet
Honestly, I don’t think Jiren’s appearance and background in the manga should affect our critique of his lack of characterization in the anime. They both need to work on their own, since both are their own entities. It would be different if the manga were the source material, but it isn’t. Jiren in the anime is a completely different, less interesting animal than the one from the manga.
Jiren isn't a problem, I actually think his boring and cliche character design did more to help this arc than to hurt it. This arc primary focus was not on fighting a big baddy like every other arc. It was everything that lead up to it. If jiren character dominated the spotlight, then we would have had no room for any of the other things that happened in this arc.
Instead of getting another Freiza or Cell that dominated the spot light, we got to see Roshi, Vageta, Android 17 and other members cast get some character development instead.
Elector of Wurttemberg Yeah but krillin and tien were wasted Majin Buu would have been much more useful.
Elector of Wurttemberg Your smart
itachi93674 I feel the reason they wrote Majin Buu out of the story is because his power of healing would be way too cheap there would be no stress of stamina fatigue
Majin Boo just has too many powers and abilities that give him and U7 a major advantage.
But if that's the case then why does he even exist? When you think about it there isn't much story to the arc even with a main antagonist in Jiren because he does almost nothing. It's just endless fight scenes and granted that while impressive gets tiring after a while. Not to mention some of those characters got shafted very hard like Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, Gohan to an extent and Yamcha by not even including him. I just don't understand why characters like Roshi and 17 just suddenly got pushed into the spotlight at the expense of the aforementioned characters even when said characters are way stronger than Roshi and have been around much longer than 17. It just feels like weird and nonsensical fan service that diminishes the story, logical writing, great and long lasting character developments for short term interest.
I like your ideas Masako. A lot of the nuances you speak of with Jiren are probably there, but Toei is unable to convey this very well and with Super stopping in March we won't get this for a while, if ever. Had Jiren been displayed as a more proactive fighter in the tournament and his backstory gotten more spotlight than the end of the TOP, he would be liked more.
Manga Jiren shows more of a heroic no nonsense personality. Protecting others is his primary goal. He doesn't demean weaker fighters or play with his food. Overall though, I wouldn't add much to him beyond a good motivation (Masako's idea was pretty good) and demonstrate him as a stoic honorable hero of few words more.
VC Archangel
Agreed
Jiren has Broly syndrome, he's initially cool but as he's explained he gets increasingly stupid. Had the backstory been better he would have been much cooler.
English Jiren in Xenoverse though.
Wilfred Cthulu it's fine but it would fit much better with toppo just saying..
Wilfred Cthulu it feels more closer to manga Jiren
THE GREAT SAYIAJIREN!
I know right!
He need a high pitched voice
Would've been cool if Vegeta commented that he won't let Jiren be the death of his family, then Jiren's eyes widen. He looks down at his hands, and when he's looking back up he's looking at himself as a child. His childhood self is staring right at him with a terrified gaze as his old house burns around him... His family dead at his feet. It's then that he realizes that, just by participating in this tournament, he has become the very monster that killed his family.
Genex SGX Voice Talent this would've been amazing
blu prutee dude you're trying to bring logic to anime. That never works. Logically, why would zeno even erase all of them to begin with? The mortal level reason makes no sense at all, buuuut it gives us an excuse to get a massive badass tournament.
blu prutee ehhhhh for normal people I would definitely agree with you, buuuut most of these fighters, particularly the Saiyans, seem to prefer a chance at combat and survival rather then laying down and waiting to die.
So, basically... Martha?
Question: How to solve a problem like jiren?
Answer: way way way way way better writing
Wait.......
Jiren-Batman
Goku-Superman
Tournament of power-Batman vs superman
Jiren's backstory would be 100% improved if he finds out Belmod was the monster and subsequently opts to lose the tournament as his own form of revenge.
I'd buy that. That'd give Jiren a point, as an enemy Goku couldn't beat who spared HIM for once. Instead of the other way around.
But then Goku wouldn't win. What you're saying is just nonsense. You are sick and need professional help.
I still dont feel like we got a clear explanation of his enormous strength it just feels like he did push ups, sit ups and drank plenty of juice
What’s funny to me is that Vegeta and Goku have a much more tragic backstory. Home world destroyed, the last of your people are selfish and evil, the man who did it is your boss, he died but he came back and you have to fight along side him to survive.
Jiren is not the problem, Frieza not having ultra instinct is the real problem!
Just a meme btw
Hong Leh bu...but it was a meme
has meme replaced the word joke in internet language now, or am I just late to the party?
JameboHayabusa ITS JUST A MEME BRO!
Jiren is not a bad character. We just see the inspiration behind him and want to pick it apart. I like Jiren, he’s a different kind of antagonist.
Doomhand Great to know you like terribly written characters!
Balta Skywalker, relax
Balta Skywalker he isn't terribly written you're just hating
Yeah, he’s not another I’m a deliciously evil, smug enemy that will falter at the hands of a superior opponent. Being a stoic, no nonsense enemy is a relief compared to the usual roster.
He's not a bad character - that's because he's not even a character in the first place.
Stop I have my english exam on 5th
Let me study masakox please
My is on March 7 started
Alpha Ultimateno exams are annoying. But I couldn't miss masakox's video lol
M J you are from beaconhouse okara class 5,6 or possibly even 7 . if yes then reply and meet me at school
It's okay you're school will understand it's Masako lol
Either way , Good luck guys hope you get A+ , cuz I got that on mine :p
I still fell that Jiren needed a bigger backstory then what we got. I find Him kind of dry as a Character myself but that's because he hasn't had much dialog or character development. Even Goku black/ Zamasu had more development. Its mostly because we had so many characters to focus on through the arc, but if he's the so called "big bad" he should have more depth as a character. To me, Just pure strength is not enough to make him interesting. They could have had time to fix it if they had wanted to, but instead they are ending super. Hopefully we will get a new series soon and they could work to make Jiren quite interesting if they wanted to.
Emmy Lackspur I mean... pure strength was enough for Freeza, Cell and Buu.
Luiz Marihno
You're gravely mistaken if you think people like them only because of their power.
Luiz Marinho But they had actual personalities. Jiren is just boring to watch. He has no personality. Replace Jiren with a cardboard cutout with a speaker (strong cardboard of course). Jiren is THAT bland of a character. Power =/= Interesting
frieza, cell and buu had an actual presence in their respective arcs. yeah they're all pretty generic villains but they were fun to watch because they actually DID things. frieza murdering innocent people and even his own goons. cell eating and destroying entire cities and hunting down 17 and 18. buu murdering most of the main cast and even having a whole mini arc around his good vs evil aspects.
jiren sits in a corner doing absolutely nothing for most of the arc and only NOW are we getting anything out of him.
Toriyama isn't capable to write anything better than that, and Toei writers are very bad that can't do any better either. our last hope is Toyotaro in the manga, but it will take years since it's monthly release
I think there are 2 problems with this arc:
1) too many minor opponent.
Namek arc had 8 opponent, android arc 4, buu 2 (i count darbula but i could just ignore him) while here we have... 70.
2)at the end of all those minor fight the opponent is just another big guy with a huge power level, nothing special or new
In 30 years shonen have changed, shows like HunterxHunter, Boku no hero (jesus even naruto, bleach and one piece) have evolved from the simple "the enemy is a big though guy that must be punched really hard before he punch us really hard".
Francesco
Also.
Darbula doesn't exist.
His name is Dabura.
And...
The Namek Saga, Android Saga, Buu Saga all had more enemies/actual opponents than you mentioned.
You know...
You could have kept your mouth shut if you don't know anything about dragonball 😂
Zorothex
*cough*
(Minor English/ translator problems if on phone)
*cough*
(Also yea he forgot a lot of important villains on those sagas)
*cough*
Francesco android arc 6
16,17,18,19,20 and Cell..... even if you count Cell Jr that’s like 7 not counting all the CellJr
Well you say "70 opponents", if you count every single person who never actually got to fight and was never a big deal... Then we would have to count every single member of Frieza's army.
in order:
1)ok i forgot to count 19 ans 20 but, to be fair, all they did was hurting yamcha so they had as much impact as the Saibamen (even less considering that 19 and 20 didn't even kill Yamcha).
If you prefer i will change in "opponent that were a threat for some of the main characters and had a name" but that's pretty much the same.
2)yeah it's not like all 70 opponents are equally relevant but the thing you don't understand is that is not about the numbers, it's about the concept: did we really need a fight between 80 characters?
Wouldn't have been better if it was 20 or 30 at most so everyone would have been a bit more impactful?
If they had to made 70 characters and don't even use some their entire existence was completely useless.
5:56 10 outta 10.
That's how every toxic Dragon Ball fan sounds like.
Too Superior 2.0 I see your point
You said it brother
Agreed. People draw lines to Batman so they can scream "Bad Writing" but every character archetype has been used elsewhere in a way you didn't notice. Just because you recognize the character type doesn't mean its bad.
I think that the best solution to Jiren would have been for him to have an interesting motivation - like, say, finding this whole "tournament of power" disgusting, because no matter how powerful he becomes, the gods can just capriciously destroy him/his entire universe. Him wanting to overthrow the Omni-Kings and capricious gods of destruction would have been an interesting motivation, and would have been a reason for him to want to be powerful, and could have thrown more ambiguity into things.
NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA JIREN !
Medium Rhombus so much for being Superman
Nananananan jiren!
And like the old Batman tv series toppo on byke with Batgirl costume .....
And toppo!
Medium Rhombus Adam West would be proud #WeLoveAdamWest
6:15 correction
The biggest tsundere in all anime
Ha, true.
You kinda ignored the fact that everything since the universe 6 arc has been setting Goku up as an anti hero or a villain before they turned Jiren into Broly and set us on a course for vanilla Shoenen "friendship magic wins the day".
That's never happened. Ever. Goku was never set up to be anything but the hero I have no idea what you're talking about. All this anti-hero shtick for Vegeta to swoop in and save the day is wishful thinking. Stop that.
How to solve a problem like Jiren...
Have daborah spit on him or buu turn him into chocolate
Then they'd create another asspull: "oh, Jiren is stronger than Dabura's magic", "oh, Jiren is stronger than Buu's magic" just like "oh, Jiren is stronger than time". This bald abomination is the worst thing in the entire series, he's OP for no reason other than to be OP.
didnt work on vegito
Steve goudreau
It did, just not completely. He was able to remain conscious but physically he WAS turned into a candy.
and still overpowered Mystic Buu with ease, in the anime. So yeah, a lot of DBS characters would just shrug off Buu's magic
that dude jiren starred down time
this was the moment were i finally said db super is complete trash and i only watch it for being dbz
The problem is that he’s like every other OP villain. A villain that the hero just casually overcomes because Jiren got nerfed. Anyway, besides that? It doesn’t matter, I agree with the thoughts that the Tournament of Power is a love letter to Dragon Ball fans. Think about all the nostalgia moments that was in this arc alone. This was always meant to be the end.
Yeah... Jiren is not this character. Jiren isn't a character at all. Jiren is a plot device. Some may enjoy it, some may forgive the writers for it, but I, for once, don't
Jiren is a run-of-the-mill antagonist that they needed to have for everyone to root for Goku. His backstory is worse than Broly's - oh boy - and wasn't clearly thought out from his appearance - his demeanor changes in 20 episodes. And no, there's no hidden meaning to his words: the "pathetic" part to Toppo, the "weakling" part to Vegeta, the "trust" part to Goku, it's all the common trope of "I am strong, strength is everything". Just like Zamasu was the trope of the "God is never wrong" in anime, Jiren is the trope of "Strength is absolute". It's useless to speculate around it: Jiren is a simple character made for Goku to become stronger and for the kids to root for the Saiyan in the tournament
Peter Sanders plot device? Like goku in Z?
“His backstory is worse than Broly”
- Okay, no. Not at all. That’s not even subjective.
But you could do better
Well, Broly's backstory is creative, at least.
Who would think that the reason for a character to want revenge would be "hear a cry from another baby". WTF? It's so ridiculous, but so different, that I like it, more than a generic backstory with no creativity
wbrodie55 yes
I always enjoy hearing your thoughts on stuff like this. It really gives me a lot to think about with my own writing, and makes me interested to see how things turn out versus how things could have been.
I really like Jiren because he is different. He is an antagonist and at the same time he isn't. That's what makes it interesting. Sure his character could be better portrayed and nuanced in the anime, but his concept is pretty good.
With Character Discussions like this make me Love watching Masako's videos!
He makes many valid point even if some of them is a little out there.
I agree with Masako that I'm sure there's more to Jiren then meets the eye!
Toriyama's Classic Expectation Subversion would be like:
Fans: I'm So Hyped to see Jiren's Backstory!! Its gonna be Awesome and Badass!!
Toriyama: I'm gonna give em something generic on the outside but more depth on the inside! LOL! I Love Trolling the Fandom!!
We are supposed to dislike the main antagonist? I loved Cell in his arc, Goku Black as well
Jiren is just a boring and bland generic hero
Same here. Cool villains are often likable. Trash characters like Jiren are not likable at all.
I personally would keep him rather unknowable, but give him more little hints of depth and things that subvert Belmod's and 17's opinions of his motives.
As noted, three episodes isn't long enough to really explore him, and frankly I like the fact that Jiren keeps his feelings close to his chest. It's kinda why he had such good chemistry with Vegeta, neither of them are big into screaming about their backstory while crying. Sure Vegeta did it eventually, but it took a LOT to get to that point.
the end of this video just made me realize how much I want a bloopers video from you
Kind of wish we didn't have to rely on Goku to win. Wanted to see vegeta or gohan manage a win but nope...goku.
There's still hope, we can see some kind of twist. Frieza is still in the arena.
I thought that jiren backstory was the most generic thing ever intentionally (the good old "toriyama subverting expectations"). However I was waiting for some sick burns from Vegeta like:
"ohh, your punny village got destroyed? well, my entire PLANET was destroyed by that guy *points to freezer*, and Im over my past, so Im already stronger than you in that regard"
I mean, whats the point of making a cliche and stupidly simple backstory without abusing it, when the two protagonist share a similar, but actually greater scale version of "my home was destroyed" an neither are affected by it currently. Goku just never minded, and Vegeta has a family and poeple he cares for, so he's mostly over it.
It also doesn't help that the show was practically screaming in your face to find the story sad.
Literally, having Belmod say "WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT JIREN?!" felt ultra manipulative. I mean yes, his backstory is unfortunate, but compared to everyone else, it's just not as good, and being forced to take it seriously just rubs me the wrong way.
I would agree with you if the scenes were presented in that fashion. In other words: show vs. tell or in Toriyama's case just give us anything besides an exposition dump at the end. If they want us to believe that Jiren is a deeper character than they should have had him more active during the tournament. Have him give orders, let him respond to the fights going on around him, angle shots to make us think he's being sympathetic or thinking deeply; something. Toriyama just doesn't present anything that way though.
I think the problem with his backstory (beyond being cliche ) it's the fact, that it seemed rushed. I mean the backstory only covered the basic points of his origins, we never got to see his relationship with his friends and family, how was he before losing everything? How did he feel when he encountered the villain that killed his parents once again?....etc.
If this points were covered, Jiren's backstory could have been pretty good.
Hell, show us the group he fought with and lost! That's about the only reason we have for why he's so impersonal and distant with the pride troopers and it would give his attitude some emotional punch. They really failed to allot enough time to cover WHY he views the only truth as 'Strength is Absolute.'
Sorain1 it at least explains his behaviour which is ok i guess. Still, i would be really dissapointed if his story wasn't expanded in the future.
So no one's up for Jiren being a super powerful prison rapist trying to get Goku's booty and show him what real strength is? Nope...
Ok, me neither... I guess
Hey, "Goku Booty" is more motivation than we started with. It would therefore be an improvement.
I can see it now...
Jiren: Now I know they call you son Goku, but I call you son *handsome.*
Jiren's got that "take your goodies" look in his eyes!
Travis Bortz ssj9k
S B That would be.......interesting.
Broly or Jiren, who has the worst character and backstory?
Broly has PTSD, it's at least a kind of depth
Leirbag15 yeah but that ptsd is because of crying so still kinda awful
To be fair, while Broly's character isn't great, but it isn't as awful as people remembered.
Broly was a prodigy, a saiyan baby born with a power level surpassing most adults (10 000 compared to saiyan saga Goku's over 9000). Afraid of his power and that because of him Frieza could decide to exterminate saiyans, Vegeta (senior) tried to kill the baby. When Frieza attacked anyway, Broly was strong enough to protect his father and himself from death.
Afterwards, Paragus used mind control on his son and made him a slave, killing innocents and destroying worlds over and over. Broly never had friends, or a good and caring parent. With this heritage, Broly was doomed to become the mass killing psychopath he is when the mind control wears off.
Now, why does Broly hate Kakarot? An infant cannot remember things clearly, but what happens soon in life gets in the subconcsious. Broly went to associate Kakarot's crying with all the pain he suffered in his youth (the stabbing, his planet exploding and everything that happenned after then).
If Broly had had a chance he could maybe have been a worthy and sane warrior or even turned a good guy like Vegeta, but his burden was simply too great.
Jiren is worse. Broly was an insane idiot, so he's kinda memorable - just like Kid Buu (Buu was obviously dumber but their insanity was on the same level). Jiren is just a bland brute, nothing more.
Broly by far. Jiren’s, or rather his conclusion of his back story just isn’t original.
The " but masako hurr durr" will never get old for me
What if the tournament ends with Goku dominating Jiren, but then Goku promises to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect all the universes (something Jiren wouldn't be willing to do, even though it matches his ideals, because of his wish). Jiren doesn't believe Goku would do that, but then Goku asks Jiren to trust him- Jiren is startled by this (like when Vegeta called him heartless) and then jumps off the stage himself. Super then ends with all the universes resurrected and Goku and Jiren leaving to train with the Grand Priest.
Goku: I will make you smile b*tch
Jiren: No stap please
Probably Not Jeice
Goku: never
ShadowAure 5 Jiren: I won't let that happen
jalen tyler
Goku: too bad you will smile
ShadowAure 5 Jiren: Not with YOUR level of strength!
"I like trains".........
mraaronjosephbonnici So does Sheldon Cooper
13:15 great editing, that alone deserves a like.
That thumbnail is perfect, I love it!
Man I can't wait when the DBS episodes are on fire and in the gutter and so that Masako can be like "But wait guys there's more to this" ~kappa
Jiren is like batman? well, at like in terms of cliched backstory, I myself had always thought he was like Superman! XD
Wow. I like your Jiren backstory more than what we got.
If you need a bad villian to make you're hero look good. Then you're just confirming that your hero isn't good enough for your story.
This is just reaching guys. And almost theory-crafting almost. I don't like Jiren. If we have to assume this hard to find meaning in a character then it didn't have it in the first place. This character is really just boring with a whole bunch of power. He doesn't even have a personality. His whole background is what he is. He's like a powerful background character. There's not much to like about him. People just cling on to him because he's supposed to be the strongest and it's dbz.
Replace him with Toppo as the final opponent. He was a way more interesting character.
Jiren is just broody and punches really really hard
Connor Wood Yeah but they probably would have kept him god of destruction Toppo which is not much better.
I think there’s the possibility for Jiren to be a really good and nuanced character. Like, what if he had great potential as a child but couldn’t control it, he get rejected by his home and is left to wander alone, Toppo then finds him and looks after and trains him, he joins the Pride Troopers but fails to help some of his teammates, they get crippled or die and Jiren chooses to closes himself off and focuses on getting stronger to help others. Maybe not the most original, but it’s at least a good starting point. (Or just add more of the manga’s scenes and ideas)
Wouldn't it be nutty if Jiren told everyone that the backstory given by Belmond was fake last second?
that's why i hated jiren, all i see is just another broly fused with a gray alien with an op powers and that's all.
in Z, the main villains had more than just a backstory.
Danix Max Hell, Frieza didn't even HAVE a backstory, just such a charismatically evil disposition that the world loved him.
Danix Max Frieza didn't have one. Neither did the Androids, sorta. They had one, but it was weak and shallow at best.
Well not Buu
Danix Max Most of them didn't have a backstory. It was either their character with the combination of their motivations that made them so memorable..
While Frieza was out there killing innocents and striving for his own egoistical goal, Jiren is just there..Meditating, and parring a Spirit Bomb..We don't see him being strong, we are told that he is..He beat ssb Goku? So what? Goku trained with Krillin in that form..And since Jiren got a huge nerf, I can't see any characteristic that make him stand out..
Although there is the counter argument that he is not a villain but an antagonist, but that doesn't change the fact that you should at least have some character..Champa was antagonist and was much more interesting..Look at Jiren now, even as a design he doesn't stand out.
Having a generic back story doesn't really help either..I would really prefer a strong antagonist who would question both Goku morals and Zeno(s)' justments..
Sorry about that, first Jiren rant I had since he was introduced
Danix Max I'd say Cell and Buu were the most interesting in back stories. With the time travel, different personality traits of all the ones in his dna, and all that fun stuff. Buu, with his creation, thr absorbtion of the Kais, how his personality drastically changes by form, his relationships with others in each form, etc.
this is how wrestling works
Wrestling is fake
IT IS!? Noooooo! What's next? Are you going to tell me The Walking Dead, Dragon Ball, anime is also not real!? IMPOSSIBLE
Boy do I have some bad news for you buddy
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
drunkendan I mean when that star you idolized became a jerk out of nowhere just to make him the badguy of the upcoming plot, it always happen and it sucks when the writers antagonize them
Best ending would have been 17 sacrificing himself, tanking a Jiren blast on purpose to disqualify him while keeping the other two shielded for number victory.
So the GoD is Joker, his angel is Harley and Jiren is Batman.. Which one is Robin? Toppo? Or did his Robin die?! Dun dun dunnn...
People will work 24/7 to justify Jiren but hate other characters with more going for them cuz idk they went super Sayin to fast for their liking.
Incorrect. We hate them because they’re annoying eyesores. Cabba was more than enough.
I was saying the same thing, the double standards are stong with this. Jiren is powerful for pretty much no reason, but no one was asking to see him "work hard to achieve" it.
The difference is that Jiren started at his strength level and didn't magically get stronger than when we first see him.
There's no double standard though. Caulifla started out without a ssj tranformation but then all of the sudden she learns it with ease and then uses ssj2 with little to no effort at all.
Characters like, Jiren, Freeza, and the Androids back in the Cell saga days started off as incredible strong fighters. Whereas Caulifla started out as a Sayian with "high potential". (Seriously, this high potential plot device is getting old. First we had Goku have high potential, then Tien, then Piccolo, then Vegeta, then Freeza, then the worst offenders of them all were Caulifla and Hit).
Alright, I won't use a double standard you're right. Both Jiren and Caulifla are inexplicably powerful, and so is 17, Gohan, Freeza, SSJ Rage, Roshi, Goten and Trunks going SSJ, and even Goku sometimes. There.
Xenoverse fixes him with just his voice a Superman like character instead of unimpressed monotone dad
Dusty Fedora Coincidentally, he's voiced by Scorpion from MKX, some guy who's trying to avenge his family and works for a white god.
Urelated but i like it when you say "BUT MASAKO" as if all the sass in your body came together in your vocal cords
I like idea of the "Hero responsible for the demise of his own people" story.
bergamo would have been a better final enemy
No kidding. He and his brothers actually had a more interesting backstory. They had to survive in this pathetic universe - they'd only need to expand it. They also had better designs than Jiren.
Answer: Not make him the worst villain in Dragon Ball. And not make him a generic Gary Sue.
Technically not villain.
Hey Masako, when are we gonna get a chance to see bloopers from all your outtakes? You have the best puns in the internet and we all know you only choose the best ones.. but I would really really really like to see the ones that don't make the final cut. A mini movie of Masako's madness sounds marvelous to me (in my Masako voice) keep up the good work. 🤜🤛
This is the best thumbnail he’s ever had
Jiren is completely flat,one dimensional,and doesnt really seem to have any good goals
He's basically Broly but worse. Broly at least was an insane idiot, so his rampage is somewhat memorable. Jiren? There's nothing to him other than power.
Young BLP2019
u didn't watch the video lol
Like Masako says, "Toei doesn't owe you anything." And really, does ANY company owe you anything?
So screw criticism. Accept crap or leave while everything you like suffers. Hooray anti-consumerism!
Using a purposely bland and generic character only works if there's a meaningful purpose to it. What are the writers trying to say with Jiren? Is it that Goku's obsession with becoming stronger will ultimately leave him unfulfilled if he becomes the strongest? Is Jiren just Saitama without the comedy? Or is it really nothing more than a response to Goku vs. Superman debates?
Bass.EXE he's op so he can be the antagonist.
Masako means amazing storytelling and discussion.
I like his backstory as he's basically a parody of the strong silent types.
The thumbnail to this video is my new favourite thumbnail.
When it comes to this fanbase there always a problem...
burgerkingJ I think that's because DB is too popular for its own good. There are so many people are in this fandom therefore so many different opinions come in and everyone lashes out at someone who doesn't have the same opinion or taste
Oh yeah, a huge margin.
Jirens' back story is basically Vegetas' back story without the Z warriors.
You know, the irony here is that if executed well, that would have been great.
Hell, let Goku get eliminated and put the onus on beating Jiren on Vegeta, who not only we but HE knows isn't up to the task. Then let Vegeta tear him down emotionally until he can get in a cheap shot to win. When everyone looks at him like he's a monster, he can just point out that his family is still alive, Jiren's isn't. His loss would be greater then Jirens. Vegeta feels for the guy, but when the options are Jiren or his family, or even Justice and his family? No contest. Hell to really dig into it, Vegeta can point out that Jiren has had every opportunity to be brave and risk being hurt emotionally to end his pain, but instead he just cowers from it. Vegeta ending it with "Grow up." would fit to me.
Forcing Vegeta to tell someone in public the revelations and development he went through in private over the series could have worked nicely. One big thing to it would be a 'arc villain' being defeated by something other then 'I have higher power levels then you'.
Sorain1 Omg that'd been sooooooo cool. With the development that Vegeta had trhougout Dragon Ball, I'm waiting for a moment like that, where he can use his intelligence to beat a powerfull enemy. We were shown just a glimpse of how smart Veggie is with strategies, manipulations and in understanding how his opponents think. Like for example when he bluffed with 19 in android saga, or most of the things he did in the Namek saga and saiyan saga(I remember of how amazed I was when he created his own moon to trigger the Great Ape transformation, or when he managed to stole the dragon balls from Freeza). I miss his creative ways of structuring a fight, and they waisted a great opportunity with him and Jiren. 2 characters with a similar backstory but completely different personality that fight each other are always interesting to see, because they can both hurt and understand each other on a emotional and personal level rather than only shitting out power ups and throwing punches everywhere. Seeing a strong character being subdued by emotional manipulation would've been cool for once..
But oh well....Goku has to save the day again I guess.......
Kevin Nance More like Toguro's backstory from Yu Yu Hakusho (seriously look it up both are alarmingly similar) bit unlike Toguro, Jiren is not well executed.
That thumbnail "Why so serious?"
-The Joker
Jiren has shown on more than one occasion, to think his opponents inferior to himself as up until recently, no one probably could match up to him. Something that I feel is consistently present is Jiren's confidence in his abilities. He feels compelled to test his abilities to prove to others and more importantly himself that he can rely on his own strength rather than others. Among the various pride troopers, the one who he felt the need to state his disappointment for was Toppo. The one he likely hoped would be the one member who he could rely on, so he would not have to rely on his strength alone. But feeling regret for putting trust on Toppo, he double down on his own abilities since he been able to rely on that when all fails.
And he has changed since the beginning of the arc, to quote TheBrownTown007:"...Jiren brushed Vegeta aside to begin with and now shown respect, he is constantly asking people like Goku and Vegeta questions so he can understand why they fight and (like it or not) he's warming up to them. Android 17 made him angry and showed that you can get inside Jiren's head."
How to solve a problem like Jiren...
Revive Android 19 and 20 and just suck all his energy out.
Caleb Stroup didnt 19s hands explode or something just from trying to take Vegeta's power at base SS1?
Nah, vegeta just ripped his arms off made a machine feel fear and olbiterated it on one of the coolest vegeta moments of all time!!
Nah nah nah. Vegeta turned him into his own personal squatting machine.
El Hermano > Jiren
Jiren seems to be one of those Force of Nature characters. Not really intended to be so much relatable, and more of a commonly shared challenge one must face.
Masako X is easily the best thing about Dragon Ball still remaining.
I mean I know originality is hard to get down in this day of age, but you could at least use a trope and be...idk creative about it?
Jiren was so cool until the Backstory happened. He somehow changed in my Eyes with his disgusting Arrogance. He doesn't show Emotions at all, but locks them away instead. He may be physically strong, but emotional very weak. His Skin Color pictures his Personality. Boring, blant and no edges.
He was never cool.
One neat thing is that Jiren's weakness (being caught off guard) is the same weakness that Goku has been warned about by Whis while training. Ultra Instinct is DBS's way of fixing that flaw and progressing Goku as a fighter without going the typical stronger route.
Give him a unique style like Hit, personality and make his motivations clear.
13:15 So what do you guys think do you J.... so what do you guys think 😂😂
Only if you see him as a problem. Not my favorite character but I love him. He's an 80's anime character. It's like having Kenshiro in Dragon Ball. His generic 80's back story. He's pretty much the kid that's been bullied his whole life and hit the gym after high school. The thing I love most about Jiren is power. Power is literally the only thing that matters to him. Power is character development. Power is backstory. You guys hating him makes me love him more too. It's too ironic. You guys love the villains but Jiren you hate, he's not even a bad guy. He's doing the villain job better than any villain in the series. You should hate them.
"The thing I love most about Jiren is power."
Well, it's not like there's anything more to him, now is it?
"You guys love the villains"
Of course we do. They're cooler, more interesting, they have way more personality, they're not bland (well, excluding Kid Buu), they're charismatic - overall they're simply far, far, far, far, far, far better characters.
A scene with Freeza is infinitely more entertaining than a scene with Jiren.
You're entitled to your opinion, but, telling people what characters they should hate and saying the hatred on Jiren is ironic isn't really true. We hate Jiren because he's so boring. Kenshiro is fun because it's so cheesy and thrilling. Jiren isn't. He has no struggle, no personality; He just does things. Even now, with his backstory, there's nothing unique to his power like Hit, or Interesting and unnerving about his backstory, like Cell. He's just, "I can punch hard and I'm fast and power is my main personality traits." The hate for Jiren isn't ironic. He's an acceptable character in this situation we have (Tournament of Power,) but, he's just that. Acceptable. He's not the blandest and worst character in Dragon Ball history *cough* Broly *cough*, but he's extremely far from the best villain/antagonist *cough* Freeza/Cell *cough*.
Aat B yeah
SynicalAquamarine Hell, I'd say even Broly is a better character than Jiren. Much more interesting visual design and he has at least some personality. Yeah, it's limited to "KAKAROT!!!" and psychotic murderous joy but it's still more than Jiren's got.
A real villain. Griffith from Berserk. Period.
WAIT ONE MOMENT!
We need to get masako to see this!
Has anyone realised we haven’t seen anything about Trunks, Goten and marron on that island with the poachers?
So it seems like the main thing that defines Jirens backstory is that he gave up trusting people after losing his friends and his surviving comrades refused to keep fighting with him.
One thing I´ve thought about, that separates Goku from Jiren as a "hero" is that Goku has never lost someone permanently due to the actions of an enemy. Grandpa Gohan is the only person close to Goku who has remained dead and out of reach. This is all thanks to the wish-granting dragon balls, which Jiren´s universe never had access to.
I think it would have been cool if the show had explored this angle. Had Jiren asked Son Goku something like: "Have you ever lost somone close to you?" Goku´s answer would have to be "Yeah, but we brought them back with the dragon balls". This would bring into focus the main contrast of the two fighters and how they got to where they are today. Namely, that Jiren´s journey would had to have been permeated with, perhaps only occasional, yet still very permanent loss. The kind of loss that leaves scars in a person.
I belive it was 17 who criticized Jiren for being "stuck in the past", assuming he would use his wish on the super dragon balls to bring back his long lost friends, but comparitively Goku and co has never even had to think too far back because their list of allies is always growing, never shrinking. "Sure, let Super Buu buy us time by killing humanity, we can just bring them back with the dragon balls once this whole ordeal is over". I think having this difference be brought up and to have Universe 11 call out the Universe 7 fighters on it, thus creating an atmosphere of envious contempt for U7 for "having it easy" would have been an interesting direction to go in.
And having Jiren be defined as "the hero who can´t afford to be happy-go-lucky when casualties are on the line" might have been a more interesting a twist than "he needs Goku to beat him up so that he once again can see the value in trusting friends" or something regular like that.
#BeforeNotificationSquad
So if Jiren is Batman
Belmod is Joker
Goku is SuperMan
Dc Crossover Confirmed?
The Amazing Bidoof
English dub Goku =super man
Japanese Goku(or at least super's version) not at all
The Amazing Bidoof SO......You think Jiren is going to DEFEAT Goku because........HE'S JIREN?😓😂
The Amazing Bidoof belmod's angel is harley quinn
I think they gave his lines to Bergamo in the exhibition match. So now he's just a retread.
"Goku you're a bad guy and reckless and you need to go"
*Bingo, excellent run down MasakoX.*