The problem began when outsider investors and VCs got baited by the word "sports" in e-sports. That caused thousands of sponsors/ money guys to give orgs and publishers millions and demand the scene to work backwards from traditional sports (eg. franchising, media licensing, huge player salaries) and attain similar results. The scene wasn't ready for that. The business of pro basketball for example had over half a century to develop into profitability across all parties, the NA LCS just hit a decade old. You can partly blame the nature of the League of Legends product for this. Mark Cuban of all guys was the first to point out how bad of an investment esports is. Riot deploys meta warping changes every few months. Players in the league are FORCED to adapt or sink into irrelevancy almost at the whim of the Riot content & balancing teams. When I tried watching the LCS after years of being out of the game in 2020, I could barely understand what was going on. The game can change so frequently and so significantly that in 2023 I can hardly imagine the burnout from scrimming new strats 10+ hours a day. The players I followed while I was passionate about the game either retired or got benched (they weren't even 30 yet). Meanwhile veteran athletes like Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Lebron continue to have dominant careers of 10,15+ years that millions of fans follow. E-athletes having such short careers affects the marketing of the game's competitive scene. NA Audiences WANT to get attached to players, to teams. Audiences care about the STORY of the competition. They care about the ARC of the players, the orgs, their rivalries, etc... You can't have that if guys retire/ get benched/ become irrelevant after a few years. Additionally, publishers have over sanitized the league in favor of "professionalism". If you wash away the drama, cursing, etc... like what OWL did, you erode the spirit of competition and the narratives around it. The business should LEAN into this drama, not pivot away.
It went downhill when Korea entered the game. 14 hrs of practice per day can only be sustainable for so long until your wrists give out like Uzi's did or you start to despise the game. Does anyone even remember Uzi now?
it was supposed to go under massive changes next season(3 months from now basically) and since there's no lcs commissioner rn, this was the time for all 10 owners to unanimously vote to kill academy overnight, also phillup aram said they've been trying to kill academy the last 2 years and the pa is the only reason is hasn't happened yet so they did it behind closed doors this time
That was supposed to happen! Everyone was already expecting the requirement to go away for the 2024 season. Riot even TOLD the LCSPA that the requirement was staying for Summer 2023, before announcing the next week that they were waiving the NACL requirement immediately. Absolutely baffling backstabby behavior from Riot
I imagine that a lot of the teams were telling them they couldn't afford to pay for it for even one more year. E-sports teams are in shambles right now.
why would they get rid of academy teams? they were the last thing keeping the ranked ladder alive on NA. regardless, this is an American problem, the rest of the world does not have this problem and it's about time the chickens came to roost in NA.
Devin is spot on about Narrative. I started watching LCS because of Gbay commentary, the CLG Documentary, and Team Liquid: Breaking Point. Then I found LS, and his story and drive and him saying that the LCK is where things are actually happening made me become a KT Rolster fan. Then, I sort of just fell out of the ecosystem as a whole and really got into FGC content. Seems like the sweet spot is halfway between Grassroots, and commercial. That’s why events like Summit, and EVO are so legendary.
I remember watching a complexity limit (now TL) guy's stream during wow's Castle Nathria race to world first, that was around the time TSM signed sword art for whopping 6 millions USD for 2 years. He was saying the team is making dumb financial decisions, and if it keeps going down this direction the team is gonna face consequences down the road, and he was getting flamed by the chat. I guess he was right after all.
Also to answer does Riot need the players? Riot sure as shit doesn't think so or they might have folded and wouldn't have tried to get scabs. If anyone remembers when Marc Merill tweeted at IWD "gratz on having a career on our free game" that's how they view everyone in the LoL ecosystem. They think its a charity that the players get to make money playing their free video game.
Did I understand that right: They want to add 2 teams via promotion and relegation, but keep the franchised teams from getting relegated? So the 2 worse non franchised teams get relegated after every season. Which will always be the 2 teams, that just got promoted... That sounds like a stupid plan.
36:32 Damn what an insightful video. Gotta say though, as someone who was watching back in 2013-2014, it really is a shame to see NA LCS get to this point. No matter who's at fault here, i hope that whatever comes out of this, the LCS goes back to what worked in the "good old days"
From the outside, easily my biggest problem with the LoL competitive scene generally is the lack of stories. A huge part of what makes traditional sports so culturally powerful is that everyone spends a lot of time and money crafting player and team narratives, it keeps people invested and fueled up with their support. LCS does basically none of this from what I've seen, you really need to dig deep for any form of "lore" about players or teams if it's something that interests you.
I totally agree, there's a total lack of player build up here in NA. There's dozens of streamers and YT hosts that have achieved that, but the Pro teams don't seem to focus on it because they apparently hate money. I bet you'd have a far more profitable professional team headlining known names from the entertainment scene, and losing, than having unknown super nerds on your squad and losing anyway.
Your understanding of the economics makes your perspective stand out around this particular issue. I kind of knew the players were overpaid, but I didn't realize the implications that had.
12:28 no NACL teams pull in revenue directly, but development is the only existing medium teams can use to gamble on rookie/untested players. The return is when their NACL team produces a two-time MVP jungler to get them out of groups at Worlds in his first appearance (I.e Blaber). How much revenue does Blaber account for on C9? Surely not zero, right?
Im a league boomer (started in s2) I feel like a hipster whenever i reminisce. It always ends with ne saying it was just us man. Riot wasnt owned by tencet no grubhub sponsors no franchising the only people who knew about lcs were the people addicted to league.
I wish academy had a way to sorta force into the lcs, since like it feels like teams just dont wanna care about academy. But if you give the players in academy something to strive for to prove themselves, outside of getting picked up by lcs would be cool. Like maybe if academy winners do showmatches against the lcs teams or something.
It's interesting how Age of Empires has developed with a creator ran tournament scene which is subsidized by Microsoft. Completely different and far more organic along with reasonable engagement from the publisher. Really fascinating how stuff has evolved over the years :)
Common collegiate W, SKT partnered with our school (mainly for internships) but they helped us argue with the boards to get our own facility. Collegiate will be successful imo because the storylines and rivalries are ALREADY PUT IN PLACE from decades and decades of traditional sports matches and conferences already being in place
@@souranis yea for us we haven't been able to convince the school for scholarship funding either yet, and we (penn state) were pretty late on the game for a power 5 school in terms of getting a facility (use that term loosely its a room with 10 setups). i guess i wasn't really considering smaller schools in this scenario and I def can imagine how much more difficult it is to get the ball rolling over there.
I don't remember the Pax West, but was there at League of Legends Champions finals with Najin Whiteshield, Goong, Gorilla and the plastic green chairs in Yongsan, Seoul.
It's deserved honestly. Riot subsidized the teams that were operating in a net negative in a state with ridiculous taxes. The LCS is not generating enough revenue to sustain itself. when you make more money than your service is worth. Either you get reduced pay or your services are no longer necessary. Players in academy were making hundreds of thousands of dollars whilst providing nothing in return aside from sub par performances. The LCS has continuously failed upwards
On your point about players not having the time to build their brand, time is money and these players are getting salaries that should necessitate that they have a pr/brand team
Would you not agree much of the issue you discussed on players not coming up from NACL that should have, is due to teams holding these players in contract prison through buyouts that are set way too high? Do you think a salary cap based on revenue would have help protect teams from many of these problems, and make it easier to run teams with at least some kind of ROI?
I think one of the dangers to Riot is that they made promise to the companies that bought in to the Franchise model. A promise they aren't exactly fulfilling. If they fail here, which future investors are going to believe them?
29:13 I'm afraid ex-players are the worst managers. They've had no meaningful schooling since 7th grade, and somehow people think they are capable ownership groups? Teams are 100% at fault here. Teams need to rebuild their contracts and build the league. It should be downright illegal to re-invest money gifted by Riot for this league into another outside source.
I was happy to see this, then I saw the players talking points and was heartbroken, they got it all wrong, they should be fighting for better profit sharing, players and teams getting skins in game and other merch, a rule set that can’t be changed in season, guaranteed contracts, free agency trading periods and being included in all discussions. Instead they are crying for job security to continue their laziness
God I'm so glad I went the software engineer route vs eSports, though at the time my shitty rural internet made content impossible so I didn't have much of a choice. I learned though, when you're 0.01% at 5 different games over 4 different genres, that is generally transferable, just had to medicate my ADHD. Turns out all that time I wasted making $0 becoming 0.01% at someone else's product, imagine if I was 0.01% software engineering or capitalism
Fundamentally the appeal of esports was the chance for a no name kid to climb up and be one of the greatest players in the world and be on top teams. That dream dies more and more each year
I've seen quite a few videos covering this topic but this is hands down the first video that even remotely speaks of investors the way it should. Most videos cover players, orgs and riot. This does change the narrative.
Salary structure for players was messed up from the start, it should be minimal base+room+necessities with massive performance bonuses on tournament performance. There are so many hungry players that would kill for an opportunity to go pro, what a shame.
Problem is most of those players under the pro's wouldn't get a shot anyways. the Top starts in pro's will always take top. Doublelift is a prime example. gets ADC spot when there was other good players that could do better
@@-SkyCat- Doublelift has a strong brand behind him, teams know that he will draw viewership regardless of his skill. He's already proven talent and for that they're willing to pay premium. These minimum salary structure with performance bonuses would only apply to unproven talent.
The 3/5ths rule isn't counter intuitive to competition. They are asking that if an NACL roster that would be in the academy next season is released the roster get to keep their slot whilst they find a new sponsor to cover their team. The current system is that the team could be performing fine, the sponsor kicks all of the players and then gets to sign a complete new team. The PA wants the spot to belong to the players not the sponsor/team
I never understood why Riot never promoted collegiate or at least hard pushed for it. The schools just kinda naturally normalized giving scholarships and Riots enthusiasm died
I don't understand why any NA team would ever go for a super expensive Korean pro. Like, you're not gonna win anyway, at least used that money for staying afloat.
Really great breakdown, I think the pa needed a seat at the table. I watched the hotline league ep with Phillip Aram and it was alarming how little knowledge the pa had about the complete financial and legal situation of the teams in relation to riot (their extreme demands reflect this fact too). I don't think this is primarily the players or Aram's fault, sure they should have created a legal union and cba when the going was good, but a lot of the players had no knowledge/exerience about collective labor action and why would they unionize when players were starting to get 7 figures? Like you said it was mainly the teams, but also riots responsibility to limit the growth of the league to reflect the actual income and part of that is communicating to the players where their earnings should be to create a sustainable league (such as with a salary cap). It's hard to fault the players for taking the millions that was given to them, especially when you consider that they probably had no idea it would make their friends in challengers lose their jobs in a few years since they were never given a seat at the table while those financial decisions were being made.
Yeah I watched Aram on The Four Horsemen and it was pretty clear he’s just a check thief that can give meaningless pr filler for days without giving actual answers to questions
The biggest problem with the NA scene is simply that they (seem to) lack the talent pool to make it in worlds. Of the 10 current teams in the LCS, they have a combined 22 players that hail from NA (17 US + 5 Canada)
Devin you are spot on with the players being paid too much. It reminds me of the fiasco between men's and women's soccer. Women are paid less because they unfortunately get less viewership. It's all about the ROI with viewership. We all want video games to be as big a deal as sports but let's face it, it's not quite there. You don't deserve to be paid millions when you don't bring in millions. Talent is great but it means nothing if it can't be transformed into cash that flows back into LoL.
Not really, that's only within the western side of esports teams. Most esports teams on other parts of the world only get above the minimum as wages, that doesn't include the sponsorships ofcourse.
I was with you except the players being over paid. They might in reality be over paid but their salary has to be competitive with streaming full time or most won’t see putting in the extra work of being a pro as worth it financially
I miss the IEM days. Felt like there was real competition. Now just feels like it's a half assed advertisement to gain *new* players sell skins and line your pockets with VC money
Ima be real, esports was cool when it was new but as years go on, it just becomes sponsorships and folding to game company demands. Its not like in the 80s when local pubs and bars had cmps for arcade games. now everyone wants a slice of the piie and its just disheartening. I honestly could give two shit about anything Esports related. I am honestly only watching this video for Devin's insight and 1000 IQ understanding of business models. I wish Devin would look at all the game companies shutting down and talk about our inevitable game recession and crash. Theres some backend business talk i want to hear about why game people are excited and playing, shut down. Back 4 blood stopped development in February, Crowz shut down, Knockout City is closing down next month, Anti Matter Games is closing down, we got Bloodhunt shutting down, CrossfireX is shutting down. We knew RumbleVerse and Spell Break were being shut down. Are investors just not into the game industry no more? Are companies just changing face too fast and thats why we so so many " x game devs start new company ". What is happening in the industry.
honestly I have no sympathy for North American League of legends. this was set in motion when the LCS teams all decided it was too hard to develop domestic talent and they insisted on overpaying for over the hill players from Europe and Korea. of course this was going to happen, said it years ago when riot still had their dedicated forums before the move to Reddit. was called an idiot then, I'm welcoming to being called an idiot now. what would have happened differently? there would be a more functional ladder, pay structure and talent pipeline if good advice wasn't ignored. likewise NA would have actually made an impression at world's with a full North American roster. It's no accident that c9 when they were all American was the closest NA got to a legitimate run at world's. also franchising and no relegation, how to kill a scene101. textbook execution by the Americans. no I don't care that people are no longer being paid, no I don't care that people are out of jobs, if they cared then guess what, they would have seen this coming a mile away with how things were setup. Literally years ago they would have seen it, it was simple to fix too. can't believe we are being asked to feel any sort of sympathy or pity for people who made their own bed in exactly the manner they saw fit. EUW, develops it's own talent, look at how functional the space is as a result of it. Korea the same, even China (yes I know they import but it is not their only means of talent acquisition and frankly more domestic players get minutes than any imports, even rookies.) how are players able to reliably get debuts in LCK but not na LCS. the most skilled and least skilled regions respectively. this was well earned by North America, that poisonous scene needs to evaporate, and frankly so do the moronic "fans" who were happy to cut off their noses to spite their faces. calling anyone with good intentions an idiot who knew nothing. keep on chanting tsm, keep on lauding Reginald that slimebag cretin, keep on crowing for no relegation cause sponsor money is more important than an organic and functional scene, keep on grovelling for everything under the sun but a functional scene and ladder. good riddance to the whole thing. hopefully the na LCS formally blows up soon and you get to rebuild from the ashes with a grassroots mindset. it's the only saving grace from that shit show.
The reason no one watches NACL is because there is quite literally zero stakes, there is barely stakes in NA LCS because of the track record of international competition in itself. I watched the challenger scene back before franchising because it mattered Gold Coin, Curse Academy, Velocity, LMQ, all these teams has a chance to dethrone current LCS teams. Liquid having to hire double lift out of his break to save their season was one of the most fascinating storylines in the history of League of Legends . That's what it is missing now story lines, stakes and a compelling viewing experiences.
LCS has been in decline for a while. The quality of play has not improved relative to other regions. Even the broadcast sucked until recently. For Riot to risk similar player actions across other regions for the sake of this declining product is insane.
Thorin mentioned in his video on this topic that he disagreed with some of your conclusions and would be open to talking with you on the matter, I'd love for you to talk through this with him
The reason why the teams are avoiding the flak is because the PA won't go after them for the same reason someone who gets burned by McDonalds Coffee sues McDonalds and not the employee who made the coffee. They're going for the people who can give them stuff, not the people who will just respond with bankruptcy.
but riot doesnt own the teams and isn't financially responsible for them. yknow maybe that's why Riot is trying to nuke the LCS, players and orgs refuse to be responsible for themselves and instead show up at Riot asking for handouts and Riot is just done. btw the mcdonalds coffee thing was a problem with mcdonalds having a franchise-wide policy to make the coffee at temperatures that were way too hot, so it wasn't an individual employee problem. mcdonalds the company was 100% responsible for it. keep up little bro
@@Starkipraggy You are missing the point entirely. They are going after the people who can give them what they want. They are not going after teams, who are broke and can give them nothing even if the teams are to blame. They obviously are not going to be going after themselves. The McDonalds thing, they could have gone after the individuals or the individual franchise, but since they had a way to go after McDonalds that is what they did. Similarly, even though the players can go after the teams, they think they have leverage over Riot (by walking out) so that is why they are going after Riot.
@@Sleeptastic I'm not missing anything. It's more of like how the banks asked the government to be bailed out in the recession, except that this time the government actually said no bailouts, figure it out or you go bust. the mcdonald's example is poor because there was a legitimate case against mcdonalds HQ where they faced actual legal consequences. the LCSPA has zero leverage against Riot beyond "bro we'll take the LCS down". turns out Riot couldn't care less at this point.
@@Starkipraggy I'm not saying they have a legal case against Riot. If they did they would just sue Riot. I'm saying they have leverage, or at least they perceive they have leverage, which explains their actions. Or do you have a better reason as to why they are going after Riot and not the Teams?
@@Sleeptastic because riot is the only adult in the room. the teams are children that mismanage money and the players are children that just want to receive their allowance from daddy riot. you can't expect me to take LCS players seriously when they've spent years being complacent paycheck stealers.
Academy teams were a straight up waste of money this is the beginning of what could actually be a positive change…NA players and orgs have been satisfied with terrible play forever !
Agree, Teams are the ones who made this request, if anything, you'd think the Teams would hash it out with the union before hand. However, i disagree for the need for a union in the first place
I'm not sure that's true. In terms of football the West is extremely dominant and it's considered a religion. For rugby we're very competitive and it might not be as big as football but it's still a major player. For cricket we're on par with the East and we might not care as much but it's still fairly big in the West. For Ice hockey we're pretty much the top dogs. To be fair, the only "Western" sports that no-one cares about are: American Football, Baseball, and Basketball and that's only because they operate under a Communist format. Also, i'm not even sure it even makes sense to call them "Western" sports. They are only played by one or two countries.
I do find it hilarious thst we all of a sudden care about Academy after years of sub-4000 viewe on major games. There seems to be too much of an anti riot bias when it was all the teams that dropped/ruinned NACL. But i am just a random person with notifications turned off what do i know
the core main problem here is actually that teams HAVE to do biding wars for the best players, other wise other orgs might get them, the only thing close to a solution to this would be limiting the cap teams can spend on player biding wars, soccer seems to have some level of this but even giants like barcelona FC are in dire financial straits due to they having to pay stupidly high salaries, even though soccer is a million times more popular than league its still bogged there, its gonna be even more bogged here
I don't think we can be really all that mad at academy players for being ""lazy"" because how likely was it really that anyone of them would be promoted up to their LCS team? Also when it comes to players in the LCS you really only have to be better then those at the academy level to stay where you were because of how the system is built. Dig went 3 - 15 and still holds a spot in the LCS, I sorry but the relegation system should have never ended. I will say I highly agree that these players are being paid too much. I have had this argument with people, most middle of the road pro players should be around 200K. The top players in a region or those players on a team that are really carrying should probably command around 350k to 550k. The only players in my mind that should command a million+ are those players that are so good that they are wanted internationally or seen as best in the world.
24:50 I would say the people most to blame in this are the people who didn't make it to 24:50 in the video. Their lack of commitment is bringing the whole trillion dollar eSports industry down and will probably eventually lead to a loss of 9 to 10 billion high quality jobs in the eSports and content creator spaces, likely leading us all back into sneaker factories :(.
It's a bullshit claim that he hasn't backed up. Take the time TSM signed SwordArt for 6m over 2 years. Riot only gives teams 3m a year. So all of TSM's money for two years already went to SwordArt. Where are the other players salaries coming from? Coaches? Housing? So with 0 dollars left for 2 years, TSM paid the other 4 players, their entire support staff, themselves, AND invested in other games? Cmon man
It's not supposed to make money, it's supposed to drive engagement. HOTS was at its peak and was continuing to grow, then as soon as blizzard cut the pro scene the game died immediately. I don't think league will die in NA if lcs is cut, but I think it'll have a dramatic impact on the game's player base, which means lower future profits. They need to maintain the pro scene or they will lose half their player base.
Thank for this explanation! I really had no idea what was going on before watching this, but I am confused on one aspect: Who is losing money? At around the 35:00 minute mark you say that none of the teams are profitable, but that the players, the owners, and Riot are all profiting from the LCS right now. I'm sure that it is a misunderstanding on my part, but I am confused as to how all these things can be true together.
NGL I'm confused why this is a "CRISIS"? People get fired if companies cant support you. If anything the company cut weight to support the team that could actually be profitable. Imagine forcing a company that gets last place to also fund a academy team that makes probably a hell of a lot less if they place well. Doesn't seem sustainable except for people like Devin (CLG) who can afford players that will put them in the money year after year.
The bottom 2 of LCS and the top 2 of NACL could compete for a spot in the loser's bracket of the playoffs. The franchise team would still keep their spot in the regular split, and NACL will also be given a chance to challenge LCS teams and potentially go to MSI or Worlds. Assuming that LCS franschise teams aren't allowed anymore in NACL.
It's also because people still deemed it as not a real job, so your ecosystem collapses. Unlike in south Korea, if you're good enough to be in masters, you can get certification for becoming a trainee under an esports team, unlike in freaking NA where money does the job for you which is why there are less moba game esports teams.
Great video. I do think the orgs are flying under the radar way more than they should allowed to be. However I think the focus on Riot is adequate because the lack of the competitive spirit and the acceptance of that incompetence is because Riot spearheaded franchising as a whole. The teams have a lot to be blamed for, their incompetence is legendary no doubt, but Riot set the stage and allowed it to go on for so long. If the teams saw the writing on the wall as you say then also as you say Riot never intended LCS to be truly competitive. That’s on them.
Riot was the absentee Dad that is now tired of the spoiled children that are their the teams. The teams basically bought into their slots and made shitty demands, one after another, until now the LCS became garbage. Literally none of the players did jack shit when they had leverage to create a competitive league (as it's against their best interest), some actively hurt the league refusing to scrim against their challenger leagues, and now the money fountain is running dry, they finally are doing something. This was needed decades ago. They didn't even fight against the import limit changes because the top regional players gained more leverage. They didn't push to be a union. Now the product is completely shit, riot is just hand waving them off now to play with their new toy and they're finally stepping out decades too late with strange demands that is not even reasonable.
I understand that it doesn't make money or provide a benefit and that's why the orgs wanted it cut, but the problem is of their own doing. They complain it is just a money sink and gives them no benefit all while paying millions to import the last year's World's mid laner or some famous name from Europe, etc. and then fight between themselves to poach every other NA OG name they can find. I bet you not ONE of those 7 teams that instantly cut their NACL teams once fielded one of those players. So yeah, the NACL HAD no drive. Imagine being a mid laner for C9A. Are you going to get a chance this year? Nope. They imported Perkz for millions. What about this year? Nope. Jensen's back. So, yeah, why try? They aren't looking at you and they never did.
The LCS should just push the idea of foreigner players not to save NA, but to show the idea that anyone can join the league from any sector of the world if you're just good enough. That's pushing me to play league of legends competitively, not the "Bjergsen is the GOAT because he has 7 championship titles"
As an lcs fan, I don't think it's collapse will really change anything. There will always be a market for eSports in NA some something will come around to replace lcs, and StarCraft and counterstrike are much better eSports to watch anyways lol
Why not heavily invest in the collegiate league instead of affiliate teams? Fund scholarships for top schools which will fuel interest and grow roots in the youth of NA. Then NA franchises can draft based on collegiate players just like every other major sport.
'They ask for 300k while providing no revenue for the team' I read and hear this a lot. And I think this is kind of a weird take. Because all this says to me is that the teams themselves are extremely bad at running those teams. Acadamy teams should not exist to rake in the viewers, or generate instant value. They should exist to train up new talent and give them some experience before entering the lcs. And you said it yourself before that, there is a lot of nepotism in the teams, also not the fault of the players but of the teams. This also get's back to the claim that there 'is no talent' in na I read often on reddit. Well it doesn't help that it is the only main region where their Tier 2 teams rather take old veterans who are no longer good enough for the lcs or friends of the team to play for them rather than take the time to scout some new players and try to find the new talent. EDIT: I do agree though that the players are paid too much. In both leagues.
The best way to explain why NACL is actually good for your team to run and that 17% is a better investment is looking at how teams are spending the money on players currently. Most NA teams can't import the best Korean, European or Chinese league players so they are at best signing young talent which isn't joining the best teams or players who are the 4/5th best from those regions which is costing them multiple millions. Why would you spend this amount of money on singular players who you know won't instantly make your team more competitive or marketable for example NAs best international finishes being 3/4+ years ago which happened before 6m for swordart and 10m for perkz. Yes I am not saying that Fakegod is as good as Armut (well after the last split maybe) on Dignitas but he will be a lot cheaper and Armuts contract is probably closer to the 17% than Fakegods league minimum would need to be.
A few minutes in and it hasn’t been mentioned that Riot said they *would not touch the NACL until the end of the season*. The players and staff made decisions based on that and Riot spat all over them. The real issue imo is that Riot went against their word and screwed everyone over in the process. E: It got mentioned a few times in the video, but I think it's the central reason why the PA is striking. Also secret callout club
Nah bro. Look at the actual requests of the PA. If their main goal was to have a seat and be informed. Why is that not their primary demand and why is it not even listed among demands. I actually agree with the sentiment of wanting to have clearer communication but that being said. If the PA believed in that principle it would have been on the list of demands. How it really seems is they want more money and power than they actually deserve. Imagine demanding 300,000 dollars annually for a league (NACL) that has no where near that revenue. See they want to be paid to do nothing but play a game they enjoy and not even at a respectable and competitive level. The ERLs would be more competitive at a world tournament than NA at this rate which is shit because I love the LCS. I have been watching lol since season 2 and it is shameful how much money was put into the LCS just to watch them decline in skill and dedication to the esport
![BRASIL vs. URUGUAY [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-hWBAuxF1eY/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm not that into esports but man I can listen to this guy talk about it all day
That’s my same thought. Not into esports, definitely not into LoL, but I have problems listening to DN talk about those two things 😂
samee.. i love Devin's talks.. like imagine a docu style video made and narrated by him.. i'd pay to watch that
Yeah, dude is the best most interesting speaker i have found
Finally a coherent and intelligent take regarding the situation.
The problem began when outsider investors and VCs got baited by the word "sports" in e-sports. That caused thousands of sponsors/ money guys to give orgs and publishers millions and demand the scene to work backwards from traditional sports (eg. franchising, media licensing, huge player salaries) and attain similar results. The scene wasn't ready for that. The business of pro basketball for example had over half a century to develop into profitability across all parties, the NA LCS just hit a decade old.
You can partly blame the nature of the League of Legends product for this. Mark Cuban of all guys was the first to point out how bad of an investment esports is. Riot deploys meta warping changes every few months. Players in the league are FORCED to adapt or sink into irrelevancy almost at the whim of the Riot content & balancing teams. When I tried watching the LCS after years of being out of the game in 2020, I could barely understand what was going on. The game can change so frequently and so significantly that in 2023 I can hardly imagine the burnout from scrimming new strats 10+ hours a day. The players I followed while I was passionate about the game either retired or got benched (they weren't even 30 yet).
Meanwhile veteran athletes like Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Lebron continue to have dominant careers of 10,15+ years that millions of fans follow. E-athletes having such short careers affects the marketing of the game's competitive scene. NA Audiences WANT to get attached to players, to teams. Audiences care about the STORY of the competition. They care about the ARC of the players, the orgs, their rivalries, etc... You can't have that if guys retire/ get benched/ become irrelevant after a few years. Additionally, publishers have over sanitized the league in favor of "professionalism". If you wash away the drama, cursing, etc... like what OWL did, you erode the spirit of competition and the narratives around it. The business should LEAN into this drama, not pivot away.
It went downhill when Korea entered the game. 14 hrs of practice per day can only be sustainable for so long until your wrists give out like Uzi's did or you start to despise the game. Does anyone even remember Uzi now?
Fundamental question: Why did Riot not set a date for when they will waive the academy team requirement, for example, next year? This can't be real.
it was supposed to go under massive changes next season(3 months from now basically) and since there's no lcs commissioner rn, this was the time for all 10 owners to unanimously vote to kill academy overnight, also phillup aram said they've been trying to kill academy the last 2 years and the pa is the only reason is hasn't happened yet so they did it behind closed doors this time
That was supposed to happen! Everyone was already expecting the requirement to go away for the 2024 season. Riot even TOLD the LCSPA that the requirement was staying for Summer 2023, before announcing the next week that they were waiving the NACL requirement immediately. Absolutely baffling backstabby behavior from Riot
I imagine that a lot of the teams were telling them they couldn't afford to pay for it for even one more year. E-sports teams are in shambles right now.
why would they get rid of academy teams? they were the last thing keeping the ranked ladder alive on NA.
regardless, this is an American problem, the rest of the world does not have this problem and it's about time the chickens came to roost in NA.
So keep paying these bums for another year?
Devin is spot on about Narrative. I started watching LCS because of Gbay commentary, the CLG Documentary, and Team Liquid: Breaking Point. Then I found LS, and his story and drive and him saying that the LCK is where things are actually happening made me become a KT Rolster fan. Then, I sort of just fell out of the ecosystem as a whole and really got into FGC content. Seems like the sweet spot is halfway between Grassroots, and commercial. That’s why events like Summit, and EVO are so legendary.
I remember watching a complexity limit (now TL) guy's stream during wow's Castle Nathria race to world first, that was around the time TSM signed sword art for whopping 6 millions USD for 2 years. He was saying the team is making dumb financial decisions, and if it keeps going down this direction the team is gonna face consequences down the road, and he was getting flamed by the chat. I guess he was right after all.
Grassroots encourages contribution. Too much would cause poverty. Commercialism encourages profit. Too much would cause corruption.
24:55 , love your stuff Devin, so glad you're doing a video on this. Such a sad situation but it was coming.. it was coming
Also to answer does Riot need the players? Riot sure as shit doesn't think so or they might have folded and wouldn't have tried to get scabs. If anyone remembers when Marc Merill tweeted at IWD "gratz on having a career on our free game" that's how they view everyone in the LoL ecosystem. They think its a charity that the players get to make money playing their free video game.
This is true, I don't see riot folding to players when they make so much money in other regions.
Did I understand that right: They want to add 2 teams via promotion and relegation, but keep the franchised teams from getting relegated? So the 2 worse non franchised teams get relegated after every season. Which will always be the 2 teams, that just got promoted... That sounds like a stupid plan.
36:32
Damn what an insightful video. Gotta say though, as someone who was watching back in 2013-2014, it really is a shame to see NA LCS get to this point. No matter who's at fault here, i hope that whatever comes out of this, the LCS goes back to what worked in the "good old days"
From the outside, easily my biggest problem with the LoL competitive scene generally is the lack of stories. A huge part of what makes traditional sports so culturally powerful is that everyone spends a lot of time and money crafting player and team narratives, it keeps people invested and fueled up with their support. LCS does basically none of this from what I've seen, you really need to dig deep for any form of "lore" about players or teams if it's something that interests you.
Isnt that what LEC Is doing, with all the dynasty legacy kings stuff ?
I totally agree, there's a total lack of player build up here in NA. There's dozens of streamers and YT hosts that have achieved that, but the Pro teams don't seem to focus on it because they apparently hate money. I bet you'd have a far more profitable professional team headlining known names from the entertainment scene, and losing, than having unknown super nerds on your squad and losing anyway.
Your understanding of the economics makes your perspective stand out around this particular issue. I kind of knew the players were overpaid, but I didn't realize the implications that had.
24:50 is my favorite time in this video, keep up the good work!
The teams fucked themselves, not riot, not the players. The teams set the market, can't blame the players for accepting the cash.
So you're admitting they are paycheck thieves lol 😂 finally
There’s a lot of players you can blame for taking fat paychecks while giving minimal effort to get better
2006-2015 Esports was thriving and growing then Vulture Capitalist entered the scene and these Teams opened their legs.
12:28 no NACL teams pull in revenue directly, but development is the only existing medium teams can use to gamble on rookie/untested players. The return is when their NACL team produces a two-time MVP jungler to get them out of groups at Worlds in his first appearance (I.e Blaber). How much revenue does Blaber account for on C9? Surely not zero, right?
Nice video so far. Minor correction, Darshan was replaced by Fudge in the LCSPA.
Im a league boomer (started in s2) I feel like a hipster whenever i reminisce. It always ends with ne saying it was just us man. Riot wasnt owned by tencet no grubhub sponsors no franchising the only people who knew about lcs were the people addicted to league.
24:50 was fire
I wish academy had a way to sorta force into the lcs, since like it feels like teams just dont wanna care about academy. But if you give the players in academy something to strive for to prove themselves, outside of getting picked up by lcs would be cool.
Like maybe if academy winners do showmatches against the lcs teams or something.
It's interesting how Age of Empires has developed with a creator ran tournament scene which is subsidized by Microsoft. Completely different and far more organic along with reasonable engagement from the publisher. Really fascinating how stuff has evolved over the years :)
man those 25+ million dollar gaming head quarters sure were great investments
it would be if the size of the freaking building wasn't too huge.
Common collegiate W, SKT partnered with our school (mainly for internships) but they helped us argue with the boards to get our own facility. Collegiate will be successful imo because the storylines and rivalries are ALREADY PUT IN PLACE from decades and decades of traditional sports matches and conferences already being in place
@@souranis yea for us we haven't been able to convince the school for scholarship funding either yet, and we (penn state) were pretty late on the game for a power 5 school in terms of getting a facility (use that term loosely its a room with 10 setups). i guess i wasn't really considering smaller schools in this scenario and I def can imagine how much more difficult it is to get the ball rolling over there.
hey! great video, its a shame what is happening to the NACL and the teams on NA, also, minute 24 comentor here :D
40:18 Whoa - came close to suggesting closed door meetings for teams to collude to lower player salaries. Anti-trust! Seems not very Devin-y
I don't remember the Pax West, but was there at League of Legends Champions finals with Najin Whiteshield, Goong, Gorilla and the plastic green chairs in Yongsan, Seoul.
It's deserved honestly. Riot subsidized the teams that were operating in a net negative in a state with ridiculous taxes. The LCS is not generating enough revenue to sustain itself. when you make more money than your service is worth. Either you get reduced pay or your services are no longer necessary. Players in academy were making hundreds of thousands of dollars whilst providing nothing in return aside from sub par performances. The LCS has continuously failed upwards
24:50. Thanks for the video!
You had me under you said you respected Leena and Doublelift
On your point about players not having the time to build their brand, time is money and these players are getting salaries that should necessitate that they have a pr/brand team
Would you not agree much of the issue you discussed on players not coming up from NACL that should have, is due to teams holding these players in contract prison through buyouts that are set way too high?
Do you think a salary cap based on revenue would have help protect teams from many of these problems, and make it easier to run teams with at least some kind of ROI?
Doesn't matter. Salary caps are illegal unless an union is involved.
@@arthurmarshall6825 get a union, they are often also how unions like this are formed.
I think one of the dangers to Riot is that they made promise to the companies that bought in to the Franchise model. A promise they aren't exactly fulfilling. If they fail here, which future investors are going to believe them?
24:55 I really enjoy listening to your perspective on eSports
29:13 I'm afraid ex-players are the worst managers. They've had no meaningful schooling since 7th grade, and somehow people think they are capable ownership groups? Teams are 100% at fault here. Teams need to rebuild their contracts and build the league. It should be downright illegal to re-invest money gifted by Riot for this league into another outside source.
24:54! Love your take on all things esports Devin.
I was happy to see this, then I saw the players talking points and was heartbroken, they got it all wrong, they should be fighting for better profit sharing, players and teams getting skins in game and other merch, a rule set that can’t be changed in season, guaranteed contracts, free agency trading periods and being included in all discussions.
Instead they are crying for job security to continue their laziness
I’d shut the league down too if they gave me that delusional list of demands
Great video and explanation. Comment for the algorithms.
24:55 LCS is about to look like the Overwatch League with a bunch of random players and like 3 people you just happen to recognize.
God I'm so glad I went the software engineer route vs eSports, though at the time my shitty rural internet made content impossible so I didn't have much of a choice. I learned though, when you're 0.01% at 5 different games over 4 different genres, that is generally transferable, just had to medicate my ADHD. Turns out all that time I wasted making $0 becoming 0.01% at someone else's product, imagine if I was 0.01% software engineering or capitalism
On the capitalism part, up 17% ytd 12 diff stocks
On the software engineer part, I'd say top 15%. So, high plat or diamond, were getting there. Real recognize real .
Fundamentally the appeal of esports was the chance for a no name kid to climb up and be one of the greatest players in the world and be on top teams. That dream dies more and more each year
I've seen quite a few videos covering this topic but this is hands down the first video that even remotely speaks of investors the way it should. Most videos cover players, orgs and riot. This does change the narrative.
Salary structure for players was messed up from the start, it should be minimal base+room+necessities with massive performance bonuses on tournament performance. There are so many hungry players that would kill for an opportunity to go pro, what a shame.
>go pro in a sport
>get paid less than just having a job
lmao
@@Dubsys if you wanna get paid more you gotta win. You eat what you kill.
Problem is most of those players under the pro's wouldn't get a shot anyways. the Top starts in pro's will always take top. Doublelift is a prime example. gets ADC spot when there was other good players that could do better
@@-SkyCat- Doublelift has a strong brand behind him, teams know that he will draw viewership regardless of his skill. He's already proven talent and for that they're willing to pay premium. These minimum salary structure with performance bonuses would only apply to unproven talent.
The 3/5ths rule isn't counter intuitive to competition. They are asking that if an NACL roster that would be in the academy next season is released the roster get to keep their slot whilst they find a new sponsor to cover their team. The current system is that the team could be performing fine, the sponsor kicks all of the players and then gets to sign a complete new team. The PA wants the spot to belong to the players not the sponsor/team
its exactly how it works on csgo for major spots.
24:55 I listen to your videos as soon as they come out at work
Very good and informative video! 24:50
24:55 Excellent content, as always
I never understood why Riot never promoted collegiate or at least hard pushed for it. The schools just kinda naturally normalized giving scholarships and Riots enthusiasm died
24:50!!!!!!!! LOVE THE VIDEOS DEVIN! Keep up the good content man
I don't understand why any NA team would ever go for a super expensive Korean pro.
Like, you're not gonna win anyway, at least used that money for staying afloat.
Really great breakdown, I think the pa needed a seat at the table. I watched the hotline league ep with Phillip Aram and it was alarming how little knowledge the pa had about the complete financial and legal situation of the teams in relation to riot (their extreme demands reflect this fact too). I don't think this is primarily the players or Aram's fault, sure they should have created a legal union and cba when the going was good, but a lot of the players had no knowledge/exerience about collective labor action and why would they unionize when players were starting to get 7 figures? Like you said it was mainly the teams, but also riots responsibility to limit the growth of the league to reflect the actual income and part of that is communicating to the players where their earnings should be to create a sustainable league (such as with a salary cap). It's hard to fault the players for taking the millions that was given to them, especially when you consider that they probably had no idea it would make their friends in challengers lose their jobs in a few years since they were never given a seat at the table while those financial decisions were being made.
Yeah I watched Aram on The Four Horsemen and it was pretty clear he’s just a check thief that can give meaningless pr filler for days without giving actual answers to questions
Would love to hear your thoughts on the FGC problems you hinted toward the end!
The biggest problem with the NA scene is simply that they (seem to) lack the talent pool to make it in worlds.
Of the 10 current teams in the LCS, they have a combined 22 players that hail from NA (17 US + 5 Canada)
ive been waiting for this video!!!!
24:55 I wouldn't have understood any of this video if I hadn't watched Ludwig's Mogul Mail first.
Devin you are spot on with the players being paid too much. It reminds me of the fiasco between men's and women's soccer. Women are paid less because they unfortunately get less viewership. It's all about the ROI with viewership. We all want video games to be as big a deal as sports but let's face it, it's not quite there. You don't deserve to be paid millions when you don't bring in millions. Talent is great but it means nothing if it can't be transformed into cash that flows back into LoL.
Not really, that's only within the western side of esports teams. Most esports teams on other parts of the world only get above the minimum as wages, that doesn't include the sponsorships ofcourse.
26:00 still here lol. But ahhh this topic makes me sad cause I started watching in 2015 and knowing how downhill everything has gotten sucks
I was with you except the players being over paid. They might in reality be over paid but their salary has to be competitive with streaming full time or most won’t see putting in the extra work of being a pro as worth it financially
24:50 Let's Gooooooo
46:55 I totally agree with this statement
BIG MAN DEVIN AT IT lets see if we reach the time for this one ty for the hard work GG
yo! still here at 24:50, thanks for the breakdown
I miss the IEM days. Felt like there was real competition. Now just feels like it's a half assed advertisement to gain *new* players sell skins and line your pockets with VC money
It's funny that the second tier is called NACL. Because it seems to be that people got very salty...
Last time i watched lcs was pre covid, but somehow I can watch content like this for hours straight; unedited too
Ima be real, esports was cool when it was new but as years go on, it just becomes sponsorships and folding to game company demands. Its not like in the 80s when local pubs and bars had cmps for arcade games. now everyone wants a slice of the piie and its just disheartening. I honestly could give two shit about anything Esports related. I am honestly only watching this video for Devin's insight and 1000 IQ understanding of business models.
I wish Devin would look at all the game companies shutting down and talk about our inevitable game recession and crash. Theres some backend business talk i want to hear about why game people are excited and playing, shut down. Back 4 blood stopped development in February, Crowz shut down, Knockout City is closing down next month, Anti Matter Games is closing down, we got Bloodhunt shutting down, CrossfireX is shutting down. We knew RumbleVerse and Spell Break were being shut down.
Are investors just not into the game industry no more? Are companies just changing face too fast and thats why we so so many " x game devs start new company ". What is happening in the industry.
24:50 Great points. I think a lot of people need to listen to this. The story definitely isn't black and white.
honestly I have no sympathy for North American League of legends.
this was set in motion when the LCS teams all decided it was too hard to develop domestic talent and they insisted on overpaying for over the hill players from Europe and Korea.
of course this was going to happen, said it years ago when riot still had their dedicated forums before the move to Reddit. was called an idiot then, I'm welcoming to being called an idiot now.
what would have happened differently? there would be a more functional ladder, pay structure and talent pipeline if good advice wasn't ignored.
likewise NA would have actually made an impression at world's with a full North American roster. It's no accident that c9 when they were all American was the closest NA got to a legitimate run at world's.
also franchising and no relegation, how to kill a scene101. textbook execution by the Americans.
no I don't care that people are no longer being paid, no I don't care that people are out of jobs, if they cared then guess what, they would have seen this coming a mile away with how things were setup. Literally years ago they would have seen it, it was simple to fix too.
can't believe we are being asked to feel any sort of sympathy or pity for people who made their own bed in exactly the manner they saw fit.
EUW, develops it's own talent, look at how functional the space is as a result of it.
Korea the same, even China (yes I know they import but it is not their only means of talent acquisition and frankly more domestic players get minutes than any imports, even rookies.)
how are players able to reliably get debuts in LCK but not na LCS. the most skilled and least skilled regions respectively.
this was well earned by North America, that poisonous scene needs to evaporate, and frankly so do the moronic "fans" who were happy to cut off their noses to spite their faces. calling anyone with good intentions an idiot who knew nothing.
keep on chanting tsm, keep on lauding Reginald that slimebag cretin, keep on crowing for no relegation cause sponsor money is more important than an organic and functional scene, keep on grovelling for everything under the sun but a functional scene and ladder.
good riddance to the whole thing.
hopefully the na LCS formally blows up soon and you get to rebuild from the ashes with a grassroots mindset. it's the only saving grace from that shit show.
The reason no one watches NACL is because there is quite literally zero stakes, there is barely stakes in NA LCS because of the track record of international competition in itself. I watched the challenger scene back before franchising because it mattered Gold Coin, Curse Academy, Velocity, LMQ, all these teams has a chance to dethrone current LCS teams. Liquid having to hire double lift out of his break to save their season was one of the most fascinating storylines in the history of League of Legends . That's what it is missing now story lines, stakes and a compelling viewing experiences.
LCS has been in decline for a while. The quality of play has not improved relative to other regions. Even the broadcast sucked until recently. For Riot to risk similar player actions across other regions for the sake of this declining product is insane.
“Does Riot need the LCS?” SHEEESH Devin SPITTING today!
Thorin mentioned in his video on this topic that he disagreed with some of your conclusions and would be open to talking with you on the matter, I'd love for you to talk through this with him
The reason why the teams are avoiding the flak is because the PA won't go after them for the same reason someone who gets burned by McDonalds Coffee sues McDonalds and not the employee who made the coffee. They're going for the people who can give them stuff, not the people who will just respond with bankruptcy.
but riot doesnt own the teams and isn't financially responsible for them. yknow maybe that's why Riot is trying to nuke the LCS, players and orgs refuse to be responsible for themselves and instead show up at Riot asking for handouts and Riot is just done.
btw the mcdonalds coffee thing was a problem with mcdonalds having a franchise-wide policy to make the coffee at temperatures that were way too hot, so it wasn't an individual employee problem. mcdonalds the company was 100% responsible for it. keep up little bro
@@Starkipraggy You are missing the point entirely. They are going after the people who can give them what they want. They are not going after teams, who are broke and can give them nothing even if the teams are to blame. They obviously are not going to be going after themselves.
The McDonalds thing, they could have gone after the individuals or the individual franchise, but since they had a way to go after McDonalds that is what they did. Similarly, even though the players can go after the teams, they think they have leverage over Riot (by walking out) so that is why they are going after Riot.
@@Sleeptastic I'm not missing anything. It's more of like how the banks asked the government to be bailed out in the recession, except that this time the government actually said no bailouts, figure it out or you go bust.
the mcdonald's example is poor because there was a legitimate case against mcdonalds HQ where they faced actual legal consequences. the LCSPA has zero leverage against Riot beyond "bro we'll take the LCS down". turns out Riot couldn't care less at this point.
@@Starkipraggy I'm not saying they have a legal case against Riot. If they did they would just sue Riot. I'm saying they have leverage, or at least they perceive they have leverage, which explains their actions.
Or do you have a better reason as to why they are going after Riot and not the Teams?
@@Sleeptastic because riot is the only adult in the room. the teams are children that mismanage money and the players are children that just want to receive their allowance from daddy riot. you can't expect me to take LCS players seriously when they've spent years being complacent paycheck stealers.
Academy teams were a straight up waste of money this is the beginning of what could actually be a positive change…NA players and orgs have been satisfied with terrible play forever !
Agree, Teams are the ones who made this request, if anything, you'd think the Teams would hash it out with the union before hand.
However, i disagree for the need for a union in the first place
Agreed!
The West just doesn't care as much
If we didn't dominate in athletics, we might look to something else we was better at
2450
I'm not sure that's true. In terms of football the West is extremely dominant and it's considered a religion. For rugby we're very competitive and it might not be as big as football but it's still a major player. For cricket we're on par with the East and we might not care as much but it's still fairly big in the West. For Ice hockey we're pretty much the top dogs.
To be fair, the only "Western" sports that no-one cares about are: American Football, Baseball, and Basketball and that's only because they operate under a Communist format. Also, i'm not even sure it even makes sense to call them "Western" sports. They are only played by one or two countries.
I do find it hilarious thst we all of a sudden care about Academy after years of sub-4000 viewe on major games.
There seems to be too much of an anti riot bias when it was all the teams that dropped/ruinned NACL. But i am just a random person with notifications turned off what do i know
the core main problem here is actually that teams HAVE to do biding wars for the best players, other wise other orgs might get them, the only thing close to a solution to this would be limiting the cap teams can spend on player biding wars, soccer seems to have some level of this but even giants like barcelona FC are in dire financial straits due to they having to pay stupidly high salaries, even though soccer is a million times more popular than league its still bogged there, its gonna be even more bogged here
I don't think we can be really all that mad at academy players for being ""lazy"" because how likely was it really that anyone of them would be promoted up to their LCS team? Also when it comes to players in the LCS you really only have to be better then those at the academy level to stay where you were because of how the system is built. Dig went 3 - 15 and still holds a spot in the LCS, I sorry but the relegation system should have never ended.
I will say I highly agree that these players are being paid too much. I have had this argument with people, most middle of the road pro players should be around 200K. The top players in a region or those players on a team that are really carrying should probably command around 350k to 550k. The only players in my mind that should command a million+ are those players that are so good that they are wanted internationally or seen as best in the world.
24:50 I would say the people most to blame in this are the people who didn't make it to 24:50 in the video. Their lack of commitment is bringing the whole trillion dollar eSports industry down and will probably eventually lead to a loss of 9 to 10 billion high quality jobs in the eSports and content creator spaces, likely leading us all back into sneaker factories :(.
32:30 Holy shit, I never even thought about it. Man do I wish these teams/owners get audited. I would love to see where the money went.
It's a bullshit claim that he hasn't backed up. Take the time TSM signed SwordArt for 6m over 2 years. Riot only gives teams 3m a year. So all of TSM's money for two years already went to SwordArt. Where are the other players salaries coming from? Coaches? Housing? So with 0 dollars left for 2 years, TSM paid the other 4 players, their entire support staff, themselves, AND invested in other games?
Cmon man
24:50 algorithm bumper
It's not supposed to make money, it's supposed to drive engagement. HOTS was at its peak and was continuing to grow, then as soon as blizzard cut the pro scene the game died immediately. I don't think league will die in NA if lcs is cut, but I think it'll have a dramatic impact on the game's player base, which means lower future profits. They need to maintain the pro scene or they will lose half their player base.
False. Most normal players from NAdon't give a fuck about the NA pro scene
Thank for this explanation! I really had no idea what was going on before watching this, but I am confused on one aspect: Who is losing money? At around the 35:00 minute mark you say that none of the teams are profitable, but that the players, the owners, and Riot are all profiting from the LCS right now. I'm sure that it is a misunderstanding on my part, but I am confused as to how all these things can be true together.
NGL I'm confused why this is a "CRISIS"? People get fired if companies cant support you. If anything the company cut weight to support the team that could actually be profitable. Imagine forcing a company that gets last place to also fund a academy team that makes probably a hell of a lot less if they place well. Doesn't seem sustainable except for people like Devin (CLG) who can afford players that will put them in the money year after year.
29:43 secret sticky keys callout.
Could you do a video on e-sports as a whole? FGC, FPS, Sports Games, is it profitable anywhere?
The bottom 2 of LCS and the top 2 of NACL could compete for a spot in the loser's bracket of the playoffs. The franchise team would still keep their spot in the regular split, and NACL will also be given a chance to challenge LCS teams and potentially go to MSI or Worlds. Assuming that LCS franschise teams aren't allowed anymore in NACL.
I stopped paying attention to lcs when Bjerg and Dyrus were still on TSM
It's also because people still deemed it as not a real job, so your ecosystem collapses. Unlike in south Korea, if you're good enough to be in masters, you can get certification for becoming a trainee under an esports team, unlike in freaking NA where money does the job for you which is why there are less moba game esports teams.
Great video. I do think the orgs are flying under the radar way more than they should allowed to be. However I think the focus on Riot is adequate because the lack of the competitive spirit and the acceptance of that incompetence is because Riot spearheaded franchising as a whole. The teams have a lot to be blamed for, their incompetence is legendary no doubt, but Riot set the stage and allowed it to go on for so long. If the teams saw the writing on the wall as you say then also as you say Riot never intended LCS to be truly competitive. That’s on them.
Riot was the absentee Dad that is now tired of the spoiled children that are their the teams. The teams basically bought into their slots and made shitty demands, one after another, until now the LCS became garbage.
Literally none of the players did jack shit when they had leverage to create a competitive league (as it's against their best interest), some actively hurt the league refusing to scrim against their challenger leagues, and now the money fountain is running dry, they finally are doing something.
This was needed decades ago. They didn't even fight against the import limit changes because the top regional players gained more leverage. They didn't push to be a union. Now the product is completely shit, riot is just hand waving them off now to play with their new toy and they're finally stepping out decades too late with strange demands that is not even reasonable.
Bro that jpeg compression on the star background.
The only crisis is why do these "pros" think they deserve good wages for providing no revenue.
I understand that it doesn't make money or provide a benefit and that's why the orgs wanted it cut, but the problem is of their own doing.
They complain it is just a money sink and gives them no benefit all while paying millions to import the last year's World's mid laner or some famous name from Europe, etc. and then fight between themselves to poach every other NA OG name they can find.
I bet you not ONE of those 7 teams that instantly cut their NACL teams once fielded one of those players.
So yeah, the NACL HAD no drive. Imagine being a mid laner for C9A. Are you going to get a chance this year? Nope. They imported Perkz for millions. What about this year? Nope. Jensen's back. So, yeah, why try? They aren't looking at you and they never did.
Ooh it's a juicy one exile
This is the moment when Trump comes in and chants, "Let's make NA LCS great again!" and wins the Election in 2024! XD
24:50 still here!
The LCS should just push the idea of foreigner players not to save NA, but to show the idea that anyone can join the league from any sector of the world if you're just good enough. That's pushing me to play league of legends competitively, not the "Bjergsen is the GOAT because he has 7 championship titles"
As an lcs fan, I don't think it's collapse will really change anything. There will always be a market for eSports in NA some something will come around to replace lcs, and StarCraft and counterstrike are much better eSports to watch anyways lol
Riot should have just enforced a salary cap, made it an actual league instead of letting the teams go ham.
Why not heavily invest in the collegiate league instead of affiliate teams? Fund scholarships for top schools which will fuel interest and grow roots in the youth of NA. Then NA franchises can draft based on collegiate players just like every other major sport.
'They ask for 300k while providing no revenue for the team' I read and hear this a lot. And I think this is kind of a weird take. Because all this says to me is that the teams themselves are extremely bad at running those teams. Acadamy teams should not exist to rake in the viewers, or generate instant value. They should exist to train up new talent and give them some experience before entering the lcs. And you said it yourself before that, there is a lot of nepotism in the teams, also not the fault of the players but of the teams.
This also get's back to the claim that there 'is no talent' in na I read often on reddit. Well it doesn't help that it is the only main region where their Tier 2 teams rather take old veterans who are no longer good enough for the lcs or friends of the team to play for them rather than take the time to scout some new players and try to find the new talent.
EDIT: I do agree though that the players are paid too much. In both leagues.
The best way to explain why NACL is actually good for your team to run and that 17% is a better investment is looking at how teams are spending the money on players currently. Most NA teams can't import the best Korean, European or Chinese league players so they are at best signing young talent which isn't joining the best teams or players who are the 4/5th best from those regions which is costing them multiple millions. Why would you spend this amount of money on singular players who you know won't instantly make your team more competitive or marketable for example NAs best international finishes being 3/4+ years ago which happened before 6m for swordart and 10m for perkz. Yes I am not saying that Fakegod is as good as Armut (well after the last split maybe) on Dignitas but he will be a lot cheaper and Armuts contract is probably closer to the 17% than Fakegods league minimum would need to be.
Well, the problem with NA teams: they do not have trainers for team skirmishes unlike the asian counterparts.
A few minutes in and it hasn’t been mentioned that Riot said they *would not touch the NACL until the end of the season*. The players and staff made decisions based on that and Riot spat all over them. The real issue imo is that Riot went against their word and screwed everyone over in the process.
E: It got mentioned a few times in the video, but I think it's the central reason why the PA is striking. Also secret callout club
Nah bro. Look at the actual requests of the PA. If their main goal was to have a seat and be informed. Why is that not their primary demand and why is it not even listed among demands. I actually agree with the sentiment of wanting to have clearer communication but that being said. If the PA believed in that principle it would have been on the list of demands. How it really seems is they want more money and power than they actually deserve. Imagine demanding 300,000 dollars annually for a league (NACL) that has no where near that revenue. See they want to be paid to do nothing but play a game they enjoy and not even at a respectable and competitive level. The ERLs would be more competitive at a world tournament than NA at this rate which is shit because I love the LCS. I have been watching lol since season 2 and it is shameful how much money was put into the LCS just to watch them decline in skill and dedication to the esport