I enjoy the thoughtfulness of this response. I find that in HEMA, the judging is subjective enough where often times it is truly not worth celebrating *until* the point is declared yours. To use one of your examples, it would be akin to not celebrating a debate victory until the winner is declared. In your mind, there is no question to your scoring, but it all depends on what the judges see and like. That is to say, when hold is called, it is not yet a time of celebration, it is one of anticipation. I 100% agree that a tournament's rules should be clear about celebration rules before any judge attempts to penalize for it. I've popped off after a hit or looked at a judge in disbelief more than a few times when competing where such a thing was forbidden. It happens. Where I get away with it I consider it fortune, and in my local HEMA scene specifically I find that after an especially beautiful hit, both fencers are kind of hyped to the point where you'd have to card both of them. As for when I judge, I do find a certain amount of mental fortitude is needed to ignore premature celebration (or even premature depression!). As a judge I can only tell of what I have seen and heard. I called hold for a reason, and I need to stick to it.
Perfectly worded, and projection is the perfect word to use here. People like to bring up “emotional control” or “maturity”, talking about how celebrating or yelling is losing control (yet they can never explain why), but is getting offended over someone celebrating not absolutely losing emotional control? Is it not immature? Imagine assuming someone’s outburst of joy and success is meant as a personal attack against you. It is PURELY projection, based on not being in control of their own emotions, and writing their opponent of as out of control. I’ve experienced every emotion in the book at tournaments. I’ve yelled, cheered, fist pumped, and I’ve also cried multiple times and have gotten very heated (in these cases I have always apologized). Never have I really felt “out of control”. I feel comfortable with the wide range of emotion that I’m used to feeling, and I can handle them well. I would hope that others can understand emotion and be comfortable with their own as well as others’. Volcanos diffusing often is a good thing to release pressure. Small scale fires help to prevent large, devastating wildfires etc etc
I’m all good with celebrating/emotional expression, as long as it isn’t directed at the judges. That job is hard enough without us nerd raging at them.
I think celebration is fine. If my opponent scores on me and celebrates, I personally see that as a sign of respect rather than disrespect. They felt that scoring on me is something worth celebrating, which is a good thing. Scoring on me and acting bored about it would be less respectful. I also think that refs should be able to handle celebration/crowd cheering/minor heckling and still be able to perform as refs, though I do think as the sport becomes larger, we should be taking steps to mitigate some of the other conflicts of interest that you mentioned, such as reffing people from your club. In a situation like that, you're biased in ways that you don't realize and can't control. The issue is not that the ref will knowingly cheat and give them points they don't deserve, but more like they are more familiar with that person's fencing and more sympathetic to them, so in a close scenario they may end up doing something to benefit them. Or the opposite might happen, they might be extra harsh on their friends either because they know what they're capable of, or to avoid appearance of bias, but that itself is also bias. Either way, even if there is no bias whatsoever, you still have the appearance of conflict of interest, which is in many ways just as bad. You don't want competitors or people with a vested interest in the competition thinking something funny is going on, even if it isn't. I think celebration can be excessive. I think some of the screaming they do in modern sabre where they take multiple breaths to keep screaming is crass, and I think it's in our best interest not to let it get to that point. But that's something that for the time being we don't have to worry about I think. I have done both kendo and modern sabre, and I celebrate sometimes in longsword, and have been penalized for it. In kendo, no celebration is allowed whatsoever, and if you do your point will be taken away, and people still compete at a very high level and care whether they win or lose. So it is possible to cultivate a culture like that, and I think it's going a little far to say that it's projection, or some other psychological thing if someone doesn't want celebration. I think there are legitimate reasons to not want celebration. Personally I think celebration should be allowed. I don't want a tournament to be a stoic, hermetically sealed event, I want there to be an element of raw grit, fencers laying it all on the floor, and showing that they care when their hard work pays off.
I enjoy the thoughtfulness of this response. I find that in HEMA, the judging is subjective enough where often times it is truly not worth celebrating *until* the point is declared yours. To use one of your examples, it would be akin to not celebrating a debate victory until the winner is declared. In your mind, there is no question to your scoring, but it all depends on what the judges see and like. That is to say, when hold is called, it is not yet a time of celebration, it is one of anticipation.
I 100% agree that a tournament's rules should be clear about celebration rules before any judge attempts to penalize for it.
I've popped off after a hit or looked at a judge in disbelief more than a few times when competing where such a thing was forbidden. It happens. Where I get away with it I consider it fortune, and in my local HEMA scene specifically I find that after an especially beautiful hit, both fencers are kind of hyped to the point where you'd have to card both of them.
As for when I judge, I do find a certain amount of mental fortitude is needed to ignore premature celebration (or even premature depression!). As a judge I can only tell of what I have seen and heard. I called hold for a reason, and I need to stick to it.
Perfectly worded, and projection is the perfect word to use here. People like to bring up “emotional control” or “maturity”, talking about how celebrating or yelling is losing control (yet they can never explain why), but is getting offended over someone celebrating not absolutely losing emotional control? Is it not immature? Imagine assuming someone’s outburst of joy and success is meant as a personal attack against you. It is PURELY projection, based on not being in control of their own emotions, and writing their opponent of as out of control. I’ve experienced every emotion in the book at tournaments. I’ve yelled, cheered, fist pumped, and I’ve also cried multiple times and have gotten very heated (in these cases I have always apologized). Never have I really felt “out of control”. I feel comfortable with the wide range of emotion that I’m used to feeling, and I can handle them well. I would hope that others can understand emotion and be comfortable with their own as well as others’. Volcanos diffusing often is a good thing to release pressure. Small scale fires help to prevent large, devastating wildfires etc etc
I’m all good with celebrating/emotional expression, as long as it isn’t directed at the judges. That job is hard enough without us nerd raging at them.
I think celebration is fine. If my opponent scores on me and celebrates, I personally see that as a sign of respect rather than disrespect. They felt that scoring on me is something worth celebrating, which is a good thing. Scoring on me and acting bored about it would be less respectful.
I also think that refs should be able to handle celebration/crowd cheering/minor heckling and still be able to perform as refs, though I do think as the sport becomes larger, we should be taking steps to mitigate some of the other conflicts of interest that you mentioned, such as reffing people from your club. In a situation like that, you're biased in ways that you don't realize and can't control. The issue is not that the ref will knowingly cheat and give them points they don't deserve, but more like they are more familiar with that person's fencing and more sympathetic to them, so in a close scenario they may end up doing something to benefit them. Or the opposite might happen, they might be extra harsh on their friends either because they know what they're capable of, or to avoid appearance of bias, but that itself is also bias. Either way, even if there is no bias whatsoever, you still have the appearance of conflict of interest, which is in many ways just as bad. You don't want competitors or people with a vested interest in the competition thinking something funny is going on, even if it isn't.
I think celebration can be excessive. I think some of the screaming they do in modern sabre where they take multiple breaths to keep screaming is crass, and I think it's in our best interest not to let it get to that point. But that's something that for the time being we don't have to worry about I think.
I have done both kendo and modern sabre, and I celebrate sometimes in longsword, and have been penalized for it. In kendo, no celebration is allowed whatsoever, and if you do your point will be taken away, and people still compete at a very high level and care whether they win or lose. So it is possible to cultivate a culture like that, and I think it's going a little far to say that it's projection, or some other psychological thing if someone doesn't want celebration. I think there are legitimate reasons to not want celebration. Personally I think celebration should be allowed. I don't want a tournament to be a stoic, hermetically sealed event, I want there to be an element of raw grit, fencers laying it all on the floor, and showing that they care when their hard work pays off.