Authenticating a Very Rare GL Script Luger
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2024
- Luger collecting is one of the most detail-oriented and tricky niches in the whole firearms community - the amount of knowledge that has been documented is staggering, and the level of obsession with Lugers has led to lots of people chasing a small number of rare examples. And what do you get when lots of people are willing to pay a lot for a small number of items only slightly different from common versions of the same thing? Fakes, of course!
Today we are going to use an advertised fake to look at how one might go about assessing a potentially very rare Luger - one of the 10,000B serial range with a GL script toggle.
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I can imagine the conversation at the shop. "Hans, did you use the new short frame on this one?" "I'm sorry Fritz, I couldn't find any, so I used one of the older ones, it all fit together" "That's ok Hans, nobody will notice, but be more careful next time please".
the biggest giveaway Ian not wearing gloves when handling a gun, denoting its lack of rarity
Yea, because a little fat from the hands would completely ruin metal of that quality...
That is more of an indication that the owner is an institution rather than a gun person. He follows the owner's preferences.
All the RIA guns are handled without gloves. The thought being, you're less likely to drop something with bare hands. They also oil the guns after any handling. Usually with Aries he has gloves on.
jasouthouse94 good eye, it's elementary.
Haha
It looks like a fantastic "replica". I think it would be really neat if it wound up in the same collection as the real 10045B pistol.
Well, it's not really a replica for what I understand. They usually take a real, cheap "common" Luger of the same series and modify it to create the rare fake Luger.
They rarely produce fakes from scratch.
A timeless design that looks just as good today as when it came out first
First cane out
@@kolbytard amended,curses upon my wonky eyes
I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasnt for you meddling kids.
Hahaha A+
Good one, Jelsma.
Thanks giys i really got my thinkin cap on at 7am. lol
You forgot their stupid dog.
Rich White bit they might not have a dog, it an auction house lol
I'm sure you are aware of the "American Lugers" that were produced for a relatively short time in Texas if memory serves. I know a gent who was all about starting a "real" Luger collection in the early 1990s who purchased, for an eye watering price, what was advertised by the seller as a "premier grade", original German production, 9mm Luger in "like new" condition....He even had paperwork to "prove" his claims. The buyer paid Very Big Bucks for that pistol and featured it as the centerpiece in what became a pretty nice Luger pistol collection over the next several years. It was in about 2005 that he decided to have a couple of honest to goodness Luger experts come in and appraise his collection for insurance and last will and testament purposes. Needless to say he got his feelings hurt, badly, when they immediately identified the pride of his collection as "not a real German made Luger" as opposed to the rest of his otherwise authentic Lugers that ranged from fairly early models to the WWII time frame. The bottom line was that apparently, shortly before production ended for the "American Lugers", a few frames, barrels, and other parts managed to "walk out of the plant" and had ended up being "forged", along with documentation to match, and in turn ended up on the collectors market though gun shows that were open to the public as well as some private auctions.
So, what did this Luger start life as? Were any numbers scrubbed, or were just those two marks added?
Isn't this sort of a step by step guide on making better luger fakes? ;)
Even if you wish to try to fake this *exact*, very specific type of Luger - you'll still fall short of making a truly convincing fake. It's hard to grind away and re-blue surfaces to a close enough degree that it's not detectable upon close inspection, or add material to make the back of the toggle more hook-like, or to stamp a new mark on a small part in the legit way.
And that's exactly the point of this video: to show that it's the more esoteric details like those that a collector has to become familiar with to determine the genuine article from a fake that seems legit enough to the layperson. :)
I don't understand why the fake guns have these "faults". They copy a whole gun in many details but e. g. forget a serial number in the inside? Come on.
Inferior material or worse clearance, ok, but not such things.
MrTom - Fakes like this are modified from a more common subset of lugers, not constructed from the ground up. Getting it exactly right would be extremely difficult and expensive - which would rather defeat the point.
Dilbert rule: don't improve your product, find a dumber customer.
Tooling/engineering is expensive. The margin is in "upgrading" something you already can make. The mfg of this gun obviously had tooling to produce a long frame luger. This means dies fixtures patterns and templates for every part and bit. They obviously don't have the correct parts to very accurately duplicate the gun they were attempting to so instead they punched a script that people feel is valuable onto an otherwise older pattern of gun. Consider these parts are essentially forged or cast and machined. It's not a guy with a billet of steel and a file.
Ian you should really do more videos in this style, assuming you can find fake guns easy enough. It presents a really good opportunity to talk about extremely fine details like this that are usually locked away in books. I think your audience would really enjoy it. I certainly did.
This is what I like about Gun Jesus, he does not badmouth the gun in review even if it is a fake.
(In this case it is correct to call it a fake as its sole purpose is to imimitate a known rare and valuable firearm).
He indeed loves all guns the same, just some more in-depth than others.
Maybe I missed it, or maybe Ian didn't venture an opinion: Is this fake a genuine Luger that's been modified, or is it a 'from the ground up' fake? If the former, how did the faker manage to put it into the 10,000 serial number range?
Brian Taylor : lol - with a stamp and a press. The forger did enough research to know what serial #’s are important to this particular Lugar and simply did the dirty deed his or her shop!
If it was made ground up, it would have been better. Clearly they modified an existing pistol.
How much does a "fake" old luger like this cost? How much if it wasn't "faked"? Thanks for a great video
Anchor Bait for price click on the link in the description, if genuine would be about $50,000 to $80,000
Not sure if it's what Anchor Bait was asking, but how much would this be worth as an example of its original model if it wasn't modified?
Estimate Price: $3,500 - $5,500
Satan 2018!
Thanks Ian, very interesting. My first pistol was a Luger and I still think about getting another as a shooter. Truly the most beautiful pistol ever made, even if it's fake. The only thing that's close would be a Wogdon.
Very interesting and informative video Ian... Like a few other posters, I'd be curious if this was just a 'regular' luger reworked to look like the B series or a manufactured fake from the start??? Or maybe just a collection of parts???
Probably an existing gun reworked to look rare. It's way cheaper and easier, and if it was made more from the ground up it would have likely been more accurate to what it's supposed to be.
I bought a Luger years ago. The upper is a G code and has been re-blued. The lower has only the four digit serial number, no letter and best I can tell, the original finish. The lower does not have the toggle hold open feature because it has not been milled out for it. Not found anything solid on why that is other than a country back then ordered some and did not like the hold open feature missing, they sent them back to have it added. It is in 9mm and works fine. Was cheap and a good shooter grade.
Has science gone too far?
Is this Luger real or fake?
Hey Ian, can you do a video of the Sniper Rifle terms? like DMR, precision rifles etc etc. Some of my friends have ɡone in a discussion of Sniper Rifles some of them claiminɡ "The term sniper rifle does not exist". how can such a vast and leɡendary term does not exist?
Weapons like the M110 SASS, M14 EBR, and G28 would fit the designation of DMR, in that they are reasonably precise weapons capable of putting out a high volume of accurate fire beyond the range of your ordinary rifleman. The DMR operator doesn't need to be trained for several years on how to operate his weapon, a grunt could operate a DMR fairly quickly.
A Sniper rifle, in a modern sense, is a purpose built weapon designed for maximum precision at the furthest possible range, typically neglecting features like semi-auto capability and ergonomics because these features are meaningless at the range the weapon operates. Something like the Lobaev SVL, the Arctic Warfare, or Cheytac M200 would be classified as Sniper Rifles.
Can a DMR be pressed into service as a Sniper rifle? Absolutely, but it's accuracy would suffer accordingly at those ranges, consistent hits would be wishful at best, impossible past a certain range. Could a Sniper rifle be used at DMR range? (Less than 300 meters) Absolutely, but the precision of the rifle would be wasted at that range where a DMR could perform the job just as well.
lesslighter thats a leɡit explanation. many ɡun nuts differentiate the two terms on the basis of their purpose. like rifles used by infantry that enɡaɡe tarɡets at lonɡ distance more accurately than normal infantry are DMR. Sniper Rifles are rifles that are used by a lone soldier or a ɡroup of 2-5 that are well trained in lonɡ ranɡe and recon. So if i take a a DMR and use it as a Sniper, it would work but not pretty well
ThorstenTheViking so the SVD is a DMR? Its Russian translation says it is a Sniper Rifle but americans consider it as a DMR
Shiladitya Talukder we need to remember that the SVD was designed in 1963, when a regular service rifle with a scope could be considered a Sniper rifle. The modern idea of what a Sniper rifle is is quite different. The Russians have transitioned from pushing the SVD to extreme ranges, instead using weapons like the SV98 or weapons like the SVL for extreme ranges. While Sniperskaya Vintovka Dragunova is it's name, it now fills the role of what we'd call a DMR.
Kennedy's Locksport OP asked about technical terms though, your answer is pretty vague
Gun Jesus Can You Do a Video like this On The Early Colt 1911’s 1911-1917 Showing what to Look For And Authentication Of One as an Example as You Did in this Video Thanks a Million This Video was So Informative 😎😀👍🏼
Lugers are fun, but I wouldn’t want one so rare that I wouldn’t want to shoot. When buying common examples is the BEST protection from fakes, and shows love for the design as a whole.
Fake or not I still would like it and be able to take it to range to shoot since it just a gun and not authentic.
Ant Bruh It's still worth $3,000-5,000+ so not exactly what I would call a "shooter grade" gun.
Hughes Enterprises oh yeah I agree didn't know there were that expensive for a fake that would not be a range gun then lol.
Thank you for all your good info and tips, Ian. Much appreciated. As for all Luger collectors in 2021, I sincerely wish you all good fortune, but remember: caveat emptor (Buyer beware).
This might have been one of the coolest videos I've seen so far. I never even began to think of how amazing authentication could be when the subject is so rare. Really cool vid, please do more "authentication-explanation" vids.
Excellent video. More of this sorta' thing please.
Well, its no OBENKARKX WFFKENMKKRZ C96 level :D
My late father had a Mauser banner (among a few other very nice pistols irrelevant to the discussion) from 1939 that almost had matching numbers (magazine and one other part didn't match the rest). He sold it to pay a bill before asking me for help.
Hi Ian.. massive fan
Just letting you know this not releasing new vids daily has really messed with my sleeping patterns!
Regards,
Australia
I enjoy the history your stories of development provide.
Love the LOTR reference at the beginning
"Fake" or not, it is a beautiful gun.
If the serial number has been altered, isn't possession of that gun illegal? How can Rock Island sell it?
I believe it depends on when it was altered. If it was done prior to 1968, it should be fine. 1968 is when the requirement for serial numbers came in, and when they made it illegal to remove or alter them.
I remember hearing about a very "reputable" Luger dealer that used to attend the OGCA shows in the early eighties. It was later discovered that he was restoring a lot of what he sold and was selling these pieces as originals in 97%+ original condition. Not sure what became of him but I heard he was banned and had his membership revoked because of these fraudulent WWII Lugers. One vendor had also mentioned that one of the buyers of his near perfect Lugers sued him for fraud but who knows.....
Now hang on, the first luger in that book, the 10029 B, did not have an undercut. I'm not saying it isn't fake, but I would prefer the reasoning not be because something was uncommon, but did in fact occur.
Gustav Kuriga Yes. And that curvature on the frame is really variable in those images too.
That's the thing, this is about 10040's range lugers not 10020's and he's demonstrating that the gun resembles the 20's range.
I think, and maybe he mispointed?
Ian, review the Little Tom Pistol! Very unique and historically significant gun. First double single pistol.
I did. Just search for little tom.
I recently ran across a luger proported to be a Bulgarian Contact WDM 1908. I t does not have any matching S/Ns; also, there are initials stamped in the barrel extension on the left side - X Y. Do you have any idea what tis piece is? Is it wirth purchasing?
Great job I have been swindled A few times earlier in my collecting career. Now I am so wary I don’t take anything for granted
How old is this fake, made by whom,?
"There is always a market for well-done fakes."
How much of that market do you think consist of scammers planning to resell those guns as real ones? And if the answer is "a lot", what's your take on the ethics of selling a fake rare Luger with the knowledge that the person buying it is likely doing so with the intention of using it for a scam?
In general I think fake stuff like this is harder to push through the higher the price point is, if someone is going to drop $50k-100k on a gun, art, other antiquity or whatever they tend to check more. I bet fakes sold as real is more of a problem in the lower price classes...
Some people can't afford guns for $100,00 and more. Don't impute fraud to them when they buy a fake. It is the same reason why some people buy fake picassos etc. Some collectors drive prices to insane heights so it is understandable when people buy fakes when they like a gun.
I highly doubt there are many people buying these for the intention of reselling them at all, and if they were then they'd be getting screwed. Because the forgery would now have an auction house history that any authenticator worth a damn would be able to check into the second it were brought elsewhere. You'd be buying it to 'sell out of your coat'. And I doubt you'd break even like that.
Still want one though. It's a crazy design that I find interesting.
I recently inherited a .30 luger, it has NO DATE. A 3 digit s.n. dwm, it has 2 sets of Initials on the TOP of the receiver, and they are on the front of the grip. One is S S the other set I do t recall,something like R T (not that but I think one is an R).
It was re-blued what's up with this luger of mine???
As always Ian, fantastic video and content. Thanks for sharing.
I fucking love your channel so much, I might support you on patreon sometime soon, keep on making your vids! I love them!
it looks like where the GL is the metal is different, like they welded over the serial and then buffed it flat then fake stamped it. i can almost see a box around the GL at 4:14.
There is definitely a re-blued box.
most of my experience is with hot rod custom shop guitars(Charvel/Jackson especially) and the 'employee projects' really muddy the waters when it comes to oddball stuff
is there much of that in the gun universe?
I wonder what came first: the incredibly detailed information available about the Luger, or the obsession with collecting and cataloging them.
Why would someone actively click on this video only to dislike it? I don't get it.
Anti 2A peeps XD
You had me at Luger.
Great video, but I have a question.... If this gun is not right, then where are it's original serial numbers? Doesn't look like they have been machined out or altered, so what has happened to them. Would a faker have simply re manufactured the part (including the barrel) that had the serial numbers? If so I would have expected evidence of that in terms of blueing mismatch. I don't doubt what Ian says one bit, he is such an expert, but just trying to understand what the story is for this particular gun.
My grandfather told me he was gonna give me the Luger he found during the Korean War, I cannot tell what variant is but it came with a holster that doubles as a stock, but it isn’t an artillery carbine
So is a well-done counterfeit acknowledged as such worth more than a vanilla pistol?
brb buying 200 Lugers
It is still a real Luger. They usually take a "cheap" common one and make it special.
Depends on just how good and quality of a forgery it is. If it's grossly obvious or a gun from a completely different year/era then I doubt it'd fetch much.
To be honest, I would buy that luger at a cheap price just to shoot it.
No need to wear down an authentic luger just for fun.
It is an authentic Luger - a genuine early production piece. Only the markings are fake.
Is serial number 1 luger location known?
So it's not a super-rare GL Script model, but what is it?
A standard old model Luger in a nice condition with faked markings.
With my budget......I collect Hi-Points
Dumb question but all the serial #s are 100045 externally and 45 on the interior so how do they erase the old one and imprint the new one without it being obvious? And if they went to the effort of doing that, then surely the other modifications save for the hook would be pretty simple to do too.
And what happens if you pull that finger at 5:39 ? :)
Great video! Thx! ... Informative beyond expectation... as always :)
I don't see the link to the auction that was promised. Otherwise a pretty good job! If you like Lugers, get on over to one of the forums, where there's a wealth of information like this.
That's because the auction was several months ago, and RUclips now prohibits links to sites that sell guns.
Pasting a copy of the RIA description in lieu of link might be an option.
If it isn't what it looks like at first glance, what is it?
Are there any variants of the Luger pistol that are legal to own in Canada? I have personally found information on this subject online to be fairly lacking.
Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks. :)
Details, details... I'm lucky to be interested only in the technical properties of firearms, not these special versions. Anyway, a fine pistol and a great informative video.
So is there any more of a back story about the person who did this or how the fakery was spotted? Was the person caught trying to sell it or was it some poor guy who paid a shed load of money for the gun then had it authenticated (or un-authenticated as the case may be)?
Unless it's a case and individual already available in the public domain, Ian can't name names or go into that history on his public channel.
Of course, makes perfect sense.
for those with more (unearned or "taken") dollars than "cents" (sense)
Ok, what is it then?
Honestly sounds like it could still be real. Where the GL-script is, if normal guns had a serial number there - wouldn't that serial number had to been grinded or sanded off? Shouldn't that leave marks or a thinner hammer? What if the 10046B from the book was a fake? How was its authenticity verified? Maybe they really didn't have that shorter trigger-guard-thingie in this serial-number range.
Does it take glock mags?
Speaking or rare lugers, a while back before they went out of business Northwest ammo had a luger with a "factory" threaded barreled luger. As far as I know and as far as research goes there were no threaded lugers. Acording to the guy it was a GI bring back. Anyone know anything about this?
i have a brazilian 1906, just with the last two numbers.... 15.... where can i found de first two?
What a lucky dude to be doing this
Ian is giving the CFs hints to correct the fakes.
The fakers can find the information already in reference books, but this is much more accessible to potential buyers. Also of course this only applies to a handful of guns.
But how much is this Luger worth? I know the price went way down, but I'm assuming(i know) the seller was unaware it was a fake? Guess we hafta wait n see what it goes for. Nother fun video, thnx brother, MIKE.
Just read "rocki's land auction" this time. ;D
More of a german insider though. Would mean alike "rocky's country auction".
Mine was 300$ good enough for me
Great info! thanks
Very interesting video. And as always a very nice looking pistol, even if it is not what it claims to be.
Any idea where an impressive fake like this one was made?
Hey Ian, do you know if this Luger is an authentic factory example or did someone just make a modification afterwards? i.imgur.com/CNFLsne.jpg
thenk you
So are these guns made with the sole purpose of being forgeries or do we not know? It seems odd that they would go to the trouble of replicating some details so perfectly (the crest on the back being a stamp rather than engraved) yet completely ignore others. I assume they knew that serial no 10045b was undocumented and 10046b was......so why not duplicate 10046b and put 45b on it instead? I almost get the feeling the gunsmith was leaving breadcrumbs and clues pointing towards the guns true nature.
Could someone tell how much a collector would possibly pay for an original "GL" stamped Luger ?
As I understood right, there are no substancially differences of real special value on a original "GL" stamped gun, beside it's rareness.
So it seems to be just one of those "wacky collectors thingys".
Rookie question: how do you tell a stamp from an engraving?
bigDbigDbigD stamp is the same in each model, engraving differs (if done by hand)
In addition to what Manuel said, edges looks rounder on a stamp and engravings looks sharper
Stamping moves metal like a center punch, engraving removes metal like a chisel.
Isn't it illegal to alter the serial number on a gun? And to own one with an altered SN?
Fascinating. Thanks Ian. 🍻👍
Who made that luger? How? From pieces? From scratch?
When are we going to see videos on the L-35 Lahti pistol?
April 23rd.
A "fake" early 1900;s Luger still sold for $3163...unreal. Hope for that money it was at least a complete fake rig!
The part you call the curvature at the rear would be called a radius by machinists who made it...
In my city where I live there selling 1 for 1500 dollars nickel, with no inport marks. So do you think is fake because of the price.
el hidalguense depends on the model, not all lugers command $3k+
Here's a challenge, find and review a Heckler and Koch G11 assault rifle, with ammunition.
Love it. Love all.
Thanks
Ian bring everyday videos back
So if it isn't really serial # 10045 how does ATF feel about an altered serial #? ;)
I wish you would shoot more of the guns that you present to us
Fake is only fake when you get caught.
Can't wait to see what it goes for. Be interesting
So the estimate for the auction of this Fake is still 3500 to 5000$, likely because it is still a real Luger somebody tempered with.
What would it be worth if it was the real deal? An authentic 10,000B series Luger GL script?
I'd love a Luger, I'd take any of em. One day maybe.
What is a good starter Luger
Still estimated to go for 3500 to 5500 bucks.
Couldn't any good gunsmith make all those changes to a gun like this and get away with faking it? It doesn't seem like any of those specifics would be hard to change.. you could grind a rounded edge on the back, under cut the toggle, shorten the frame by 2mm and who would know?
Good looking replica, though.
So what is it then? Is it a more modern reproduction of a GL? The lack of serial numbers suggests this is not just a normal Luger made to look like a GL, but rather a gun produced specifically for being a fake.
But will it blend?