Forgot to add one thing about Falco: If he shoots short hop lasers in place over and over, Marth cannot use "take laser > dash attack", as it's too slow and will get stuffed. This means Marth either has to slowly gain ground going through lasers, which usually puts him in a defensive position (either shielding or getting hit by a laser very close to falco, which typically gives falco the initiative), or he has to jump into the air, which is much easier to deal with and a lot riskier for Marth
As you alluded to a street fighter player, just like guile, would sit there and throw out fireballs (lasers) all day long until he is pushed into the corner (edge of the stage) because why not. In Street Fighter playing lame is playing optimal, and if you can't be punished for shooting lasers, and can get free damage, why not do it?
He can run up shield grab the second laser... It's mind boggling that anyone could use such a narrow mixup example as justification for a matchup. Jumping also isn't risky at all if Marth fades back. It's pretty much impossible to whiff punish fadeaway fair or AC nair because of how slow Falco is, and Marth can immediately fair Falco is he tries to approach with a laser.
Seriously man, I'm so sick of Falco players givin up on their character when aside its recovery and speed is almost as broken as Fox, and can even wall chars out BETTER than Fox. I've even taken to beating Falco mains with their own character lately online just to prove a point. Anytime they start crying about the character I beat them with it, then beat all their counterpicks until they start bitching then go back to Falco to learn. I say this as fuckin Peach main lmao, ya'll falcos need to git gud. I legitimately believe all Falco mains are just bad now. I will say for the sake of the video, I believe Falco is in the same tier as Marth, in front of him at least as of today. As good as Falco is and as good as his options are players are really figuring him out now.
Something about Falco as a character just calls on those who wanna be unsafe and swaggy. Makes it seem like Falco is the problem when I player can't reel in their own hype.
I agree with falco but maaaajorly disagree with marth. He has arguably the best neutral game in all of melee. That alone would make me put him right next to fox and falco.
I'm not a Falco main, but I completely agree with what you said about Falco mains trying not to play "the lame way". I think it has to do with the influence of the character at a very high level, since Mang0 and Westballz both like to use him hyper offensively which leads to the sick stuff you see in the combo videos. This is another reason why PP needs to come back and save the character and representation, as I truly believe he uses Falco the way he should be played because he isn't afraid to use his tools in the correct fashion. He even said he wanted Armada to hate playing against his Falco when he was on stream last month.
I agree with what you are trying to get at, but I actually think westballz is much more defensive than people think. He just chooses not to utilize lasers to their full potential. While lasers are a large chunk of Falco's defensive game, its not all of it. Falco's uptilt is another major defensive option; it works for him almost like Sheik's forward tilt. If you watch any westballz footage, you will see how much he utilizes it.
Smash Jigglypuff Is Not Female people have already commented this but yeah westballz is very defensive and uses a lot of Falco tricks/gimmicks to get openings TBH
Westballz is very defensive in the sense that he really wants to use up-tilt and ACBair walls, crouch cancelling, and OOS game to get openings. Yes on stream Mango has said that Westballz is super defensive. But he's also said that his tricks and gimmicks can be learned and adapted to. Laser spam isn't really defensive. It's control. To me, that's offense, not defense. Obviously a huge thing West is missing and something PPMD loved.
thank you *so* much for the falco portion of this video. theres always been sooooo many things falco can do, people just never took the time to work the ins and outs. to play him really well you cant have a simple playstyle, you have to really know everything you can do. and once you do, you realize that hes freaking amazing
There must be a mistake, you've clearly forgotten Kirby. He's the only one who has 5 jumps + a recovery. He can suicide kill and actually survive. If that's not top tier, I don't know what is.
That's an unusual underrating of Jiggs. I haven't seen her below fifth in a hot minute. I'm looking forward to seeing why you think that, since you're obviously giving thorough rationales.
Kira believes that Puff is overrated because of Hbox, and that besides him there are no good Puff mains that can prove that Puff deserves a top 5 spot.
T1GlistenerElf personally I think that sheik Falco peach marth and fox are all better than puff because they get more results, have better options, and matchups
Pretty sure PPMD puts Capt Falcon at 5th and Peach and Puff after. Making tier lists is all about what you consider is most important. If you see Armada and HBox winning tournaments, you might think Peach and Puff are really good. But if you step back and see that these are the ONLY Peach and Puff mains to do well in tournament, you might change your opinion. Kira believes that Puff as a character isn't top tier. But HBox has simply put the studying, time, and style to make Puff succeed.
I know this is a seven year old video but... He said that there's no reason why Sheik beats peach yet shows footage of a Peach player losing badly against the opposing Sheik
a skilled roy can beat any character in the game a skilled kirby can beat any character in the game a skilled pichu can beat any character in the game doesn't fucking matter
You really got a point with placing Peach over Shiek. You actually changed my mind about who is better. Nice work and good to see your actual thoughts, great job!
I've always been a casual Smash watcher but I basically play every other fighting game out there (KOF, SF, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, you name it) but as soon as this guy said Fox's Shine was 1-frame, invincible, AND jump cancel-able, I couldn't help but laugh. How do you leave that kind of a move in ANY game?
Holy crap that pressure at 4:49 was insane. That was seriously some of the most awesome looking pressure I have ever seen in my life. Also, this is just my opinion, but I disagree about Marth not being in the same tier as the space animals. Just because he has numerous flaws doesn't mean that he isn't fully capable of making up for them. Fox has numerous flaws, like his light weight and his awful range, but his strengths are good enough to cover for his flaws, primarily his overwhelming speed. I feel it is the same with Marth. Yes, Marth's options are far more committal than either of the space animals, but this is only an issue when Marth is punished for overcommitting. If you whiff, then you can be punished far more easily as Marth than as Fox or Falco. But the solution to that problem is, unsurprisingly, don't overcommit. Not overcommitting with Fox and Falco is far more difficult than it is with Marth, but Marth can still play safe and not overcommit. As long as you do everything at the right time and place, you can't get punished for doing it at the wrong time or place. This is obviously easier said than done, but still possible with Marth. Marth has the tools and capability to win just as much as Fox or Falco, as long as you play smart enough. I think it's kind of the same deal as it is with Falco, where the main thing is that people don't play "lame" enough. If the Marth is patient and smart enough with his play, he is perfectly capable of forcing his opponent into bad positions where Marth can safely capitalize without fear of being punished for committing, just as well as any space animal. The problem is that this type of defensive play is almost universally seen as "lame", "campy", or "slow". People don't want to play like that, and people don't want to watch play like that.
I'm glad that somebody agrees with me on Falco. The only reason people think he's not as high as he was a couple of years ago is because PPMD was the only top Falco who played optimally, and obviously since then he isn't active. Westballz and Mango and the two left, and their styles lean more towards overly offensive then a good mix up between offense and defense.
Maybe the best Tierlistvideo ever, but I think you have not explained enough why Peach and Sheik(Shiek) are so good. I know most of the viewers "Already knew"it ,but many new players watch these videos too.
I don't know if marth is overrated or not, but I can certainly tell that in my local scene he's quite usefull... he can zone out spacies pretty consistently and sheik can be out-juggled. spacing aereals and good wave dash/ dash dance makes players seccond guess themselves and I can capitalize on that quite easily... and he has a lot of CC options and anti CC options.
Marth is definitely overrated. He's great, but he's not nearly as great as people believe him to be. He can zone out _Fox_, not Falco, and while his movement may be nice, he loses pretty heavily to floaty characters.
I'd say he has good CC options and good anti CC options, I wouldn't say "a lot" of them. His grab range is really nice and helps scare off the option of people CCing you. I wouldn't say he outright loses to floaty characters, but they have an easier time punishing him than vice versa. It is hard to come back against a good Peach player that has the lead. The thing with Puff is that she can punish his laggy recovery with a rest, fairly easily. While Marth doesn't combo floaties nearly as well as fast fallers, he does out range them the whole time and tipper up-airs and up-tilts are very good on them. Dreamland can make things really difficult though for Marth vs floaties.
SolidBren Well, I'm a marth main, and i actually like dreamland more than FoD, mabe it's just a preference thing or that I like to focus on neutral more than punishes, or mabe there are no good players here hahahaha... And yeah... floaties are difficult in the sense that you can't combo then easly... but I still think that his range is a great great benefit... oh and sheik has some "free" stuff and easy edgeguard if you have bad DI I was gonna say something else but I forgot...
That is true that a lot of Marths actually like Dreamland. I main Marth as well and I like Dreamland too, but I don't against Floaties. They live longer than average there (So do I), but I just like being able to kill them quicker on smaller stages like Yoshi's Story. My favorite stage overall is Final Destination, because I don't like getting stuck on platforms. Sheik does have a very guaranteed punish game on Marth, but she does get out ranged (minus needles) and almost as easily comboed. The match-up is not as skewed at top level play, because the top Marths have great spacing. I'd agree with Marth being above Sheik, because he is probably better against spacies. Sheik and Marth have a few things that can make them better or worse depending on the context.
Nice list but Marth is #1 - you'll see soon :D Also, cheers for not only making the best educational content for melee, but also putting so much effort and attention to detail in your fun videos. Really appreciate it man, you're the best.
I'm really hoping you address some of the borderline viable characters that have made visits into top 32 like Samus, Luigi, Pika, and Yoshi. I would love to hear how viable you believe them to be or where their potential is at relative to the rest of the cast.
I am mainly a Street Fighter player, and I play Ryu & Guile the *exact* way you said that Falco should be played. That is *why* I main those characters in Street Fighter games: They can be played in such a way that forces your opponent to approach due to over-frustration in dealing with a defensive neutral. That style is even *more* effective in SF b/c of the shorter in-game clock (time over wins are easier when one round is 1m:39s) *and* the fact that you can KO an opponent with any move, including a projectile that is mainly designed for zoning (even if they block it).
For me when i play competitive in home town tournament, i play kirby. Not because hes low on a teir list, its because i love the play style and ive won some tournaments in my town with my boy Kirby.
It's funny seeing how the meta has changed since this tier list came out. Now Marth is considered really good and Falco is basically never seen as below 3rd best.
Instead of subjective tier lists, you guys should treat it as an unsupervised machine learning problem in clustering. Does the smash community have tournament data on character match up win ratios?
I'm fairly certain Marth belongs above Falco. I consider them very even in power, but I think Marth wins the matchup between them, so I'd give second to Marth, personally, but not by much.
Fox's little range is the only reason that Ness-Fox is playable. Ness's only approach options in Melee (the one's with decent range and followups) -- full hop djc dair (but only viable with the threat that the Ness player might AC it), and SHFFL fair (though only at the falling angle so that Fox is in the air when Ness touches the ground) -- require the opponent to get closer, or get baited into throwing out a laggy move. As Fox has almost no laggy moves, it is a life saver that he has to approach and (assuming you have the mind-game advantage, which is arguably easier for a confident low tier) is easy to bait. Marth on the other hand does not have to come into Ness's range, and thus must be baited into throwing out a move (such as forward smash) or jumping, in contrast to Fox who has the opposite weakness. In reality, the reasons why the Marth and Fox matchups are playable for most characters (as in not unwinnable), is that they outrange Fox, or outspeed (or at least can bait) Marth. Pretty lucky from a development standpoint, that any other characters are feasible at all. It makes me happy to Melee knowing that I can still play the game even without playing Fox, though I understand the importance of investing in a high tier (Falco for me, with a decent Marth pocket).
Glad someone has finally made the arguement that Peach is potentially better than Sheik. So many people say Sheik is better with out much of an argument as to why, but I agree with many of the points you made.
Everything you said is true except ,as this other guy pointed out, you are also supposed to SDI falco's shine.I forgot about sding his aerials and you seemed to have forgotten about sding his shines. So basically you have two ways to make his combos harder to follow up and since traditionally one of the reasons falco is argued as one of the best characters in the game is because of his punish game which is fairly good on every character. Power shielding is bs and will never be consistent so lasers will always exist, which is in fact what Kira focused on kinda, but the other key to falco is his punish game and while its still very good like Marth's the implementation of new techniques has hurt his punish game. I personally think Marth has a better and winning spread against top tiers (excluding sheik which he marginally loses to but I see more debate in that than against falco).Marth is better when Melee is thought of pragmatically .People often debate in hypotheticals in melee which is stupid. No one will ever perfectly power shield every laser shot every single time. If any falco fucks up, overextends, or becomes remotely repetitive in his lasers or approaches, he can be comboed to death or thrown off stage and swatted to the blast zone at zero percent EASILY by almost every character in the game, for this reason I do not think falco is second best, even if his neutral is arguably the best(by only a slight margin).He is a true glass cannon like Fox and even his phantasm is only slightly better than fox's and both can be handled fairly easily by marth. In fox falco, more and more of Falco's combos have become inconsistent with better DI, yet fox has nearly guaranteed combos and tech chase sequences where he can zero to death Falco on almost any stage, on top of out maneuvering him on platform stages, and having an uninterruptible chain grab on FD.Fox at best can get a 50 percent combo on Marth, whereas Marth at best can get a stock. Even if Marth's punish game weakens against the most popular/best character in the game, Marth's punish game is still stronger than fox's even if everyone suddenly starts pivot up tilting. Marth imo has a much better matchup against Fox which is another case why Falco should't be second.Furthermore, Falco relies on mixups too heavily in all aspects of his neutral and combos( especially with more SDI) and that inconsistency that for the most part has vanished with many other characters is why in practicality I think Falco is no longer second best.
As a Sheik main, thank you holy sh*t. Just passed the 3 year milestone, and every time I drop a spacie tech chase I struggled to earn, I die a little inside (and in the game lmao). I'm told I beat every char except spacies/puff/ICs, and yet every matchup feels disadvantageous so long as they actually understand how to space and discourage Sheik's neutral options [most/all of which shouldn't be safe in most matchups]. Puff is prob the only one I'm convinced Sheik wins tbh. Marth/Falco/Peach I feel she may go even or win on a *select few* stages. Idk. Edgeguards are free on everyone but that's about it. I do think super consistent shield drops make her a way better char tho. Like in Marth tier (I can agree with this list for the most part). But it's hard to tell from just watching it qq. SSS 11(?) or whichever it was that the Sheik one has me convinced. Tryna get them down but jeezzz
Fox and Falco definitely both top tier. Personally I would switch peach with marth because of turnips and weight/recovery options but aside from that this tier list is spot on
yeah I main sheik in melee but not because she is top tier, in fact I used to think she was trash, until I went up against a sheik main in a casual tournament. I liked the speed of the character so I decided to use her and she is very comfortable to use
So yes, Falco lasers are really good, but you also just made a video showing how to act out of them. Not trying to imply that they are obsolete, but if that technique works its way into the meta, I do think the sword will overtake the beak
@Bodybag Dotzip I don't know about that. Hbox is amazing at melee, but he's only winning these tournaments with the character Jigglypuff. He's winning tournaments with the tools that puff provides him. I don't think he would have the same dominating results with someone like peach or sheik
Can't remember who said it. It was "Fox is a poorly designed character with blatantly overpowered moves." Never heard it be put like that but it sure seems true. His weaknesses seem more like coincidences then things that are actual flaws with his design. Like him being heavy seems like it was just a choice they made for him outright instead of trying to weaken him.
What's your thoughts on tier "charts" that depict both effectiveness and difficulty of use rather than just flat tier lists? For example, Fox would be top-tier in effectiveness but far into the "difficult" side of the usage axis. Meanwhile, Marth would be a little below Fox in the effectiveness axis but closer to the "easy" side of usage due to fact that Marth doesn't rely nearly as heavily on tech. I remember that Justin Wong made a tier chart like this for UMvC3.
Falco’s recovery being one of the best is not a statement I agree with when we have Peach, Jiggs, Fox, and Samus. He has more options than Sheik and Marth for sure but his fall speed makes his landing more predictable and he has to commit to either side B or up B but he can’t use both kinda like Falcon. Wall jumps help them out for sure though
I agree with the puff rank. Only because while with characters like peach, there are others that main peach in the top 50...While hbox is literally THE only puff that high. (The closest was abu and he is 54th I believe) . So it makes sense.
Don’t mind me, I’m just having an existential crisis and mental breakdown at the same time and using melee videos to distract from my increasingly bad state of mind.
If there’s a mass shooting at the AMC theater in Riverside, California at 8:30 tonight then I definitely don’t have anything to do with it yes officer hello officer I am just a normal distribu- I mean normal person just like you who would never commit a crime🙂
Falco can force opponents to shield at a long range, and beat all out of shield options. There aren't any ways to beat lasers that cannot be beaten by another of Falco's options. He can apply valid, real pressure with virtually no commitment. Laser true combos with Shine, grab, jab, up tilt, (all notable combo starters), and situationally can true combo with dash attack, fsmash, dsmash, Nair and Dair, meaning you can't ignore them. Falco absolutely has argument for the best character still, and second is completely fair place to put him. Two thumbs up :)
There are multiple problems with PS though. One, if you assume that power shielding is consistent, then there is no reason I won't just PS the laser right back. Second, PS isn't consistent, because even with removed spring it's a two frame window on a moving target, and laser timing is easy to mix up. Third, PS is actually high risk. If you are too late, you are hit with the laser. If you are too early, you are now in shield against Falco, which is not the best place to be. Either way I have shut your movement down and I control the pace. You are right in saying it is good, and even a 20% PS ratio can make a Falco second guess himself, but it just becomes another mixup, which I can beat with fake laser, where the audio cue plays but I shoot it too low to come out and grab you. PS is annoying. But it hardly invalidates laser. Not even close.
Freemont Freemantle I agree, but there are also options to stop falco's approach options when even failing to powershield. Even if you fail, eventually the Falco will have to approach because the opposing player would just have infinite tries to PS if he doesn't. If Falco approaches after a failed PS, there is still always JC Up-Smash or any fast move out of shield.
But then I can argue that all of your fast oos options will lose to another of Falco's options/waiting. I think you right bro PS is the best answer to laser, but it can't outright beat it. What Kira is talking about in this video is low risk-medium reward game plan. You are thinking high-risk high-reward. If I use laser to attack (like westballz does) then I risk getting PS grabbed etc and losing all my footing. But what if I just use the laser to force you to plan around it? Without or without PS your movement is shut down. I can use laser to stop you from moving and make you plan around one option without committing to anything dangerous. That's how PPMD plays, and it is considered "lame/campy" by most. Positional advantage is so important, and Falco always has that, regardless of matchup, if he can only play smart.
Freemont Freemantle o hizo lo Koo p IP okay opolol und bin pünktlich p Öl Öl liebe Kolleginnen können ob ich Po K i'l I open op opo to be paid to haveour last conversation possible LL please op possible love a I op possibleo ok o lo ocurrido con mi o IP con ok ola juju p our m Hu on los niños se opone deoro en pool tab nozo lo ubico hzle I I'm kolbe op juju juju Koo op juju JK knoll mn oi u
When you're final point is talking about the characters have been used by the best in the world at various points in time but don't include Puff who had both Mango and Hbox, but include sheik and then use m2k (who didn't main her compared to marth) and KDJ (who was never best in the world).
She is not in the tiers you cover in the video, but I really think there needs to be more talk about how Samus is able to go toe to toe with both of the space animals. Her matchup-chart is eclectic enough where I maybe think its hard to be a top10 player with her as a solomain, but she is probably 5/5 with both of the animals, and that alone should place her quite high on the tierlist.
Absolutely 100% agree on Falco, and I do think Fox and Falco switch the #1 and 2 spots in PAL. I have a lot of things I could say about Falco's absence in top level play in recent years, but it has nothing to do with the merits of the character. He goes even against Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Peach, and has an edge against Puff, and if Falco mains would stop switching to their unpolished secondary like cowards and just sit down and learn Falco/Puff and Falco/Peach they'd be totally fine.
"Don't let this keep you from playing your favorite character." I hear Kirby Mains laughing maniacally
=)
^Mah Boi.
Creator Beats ness
>:D
Markus I’m a Kirby main
Forgot to add one thing about Falco:
If he shoots short hop lasers in place over and over, Marth cannot use "take laser > dash attack", as it's too slow and will get stuffed. This means Marth either has to slowly gain ground going through lasers, which usually puts him in a defensive position (either shielding or getting hit by a laser very close to falco, which typically gives falco the initiative), or he has to jump into the air, which is much easier to deal with and a lot riskier for Marth
As you alluded to a street fighter player, just like guile, would sit there and throw out fireballs (lasers) all day long until he is pushed into the corner (edge of the stage) because why not. In Street Fighter playing lame is playing optimal, and if you can't be punished for shooting lasers, and can get free damage, why not do it?
He can run up shield grab the second laser... It's mind boggling that anyone could use such a narrow mixup example as justification for a matchup. Jumping also isn't risky at all if Marth fades back. It's pretty much impossible to whiff punish fadeaway fair or AC nair because of how slow Falco is, and Marth can immediately fair Falco is he tries to approach with a laser.
Where is part 4 of the teir list
SSBM Tutorials Bowser is the best in terms of speed.
@@Bones0 spoken like a true biased bird lover
finally someone who believes in falco's full potential
Seriously man, I'm so sick of Falco players givin up on their character when aside its recovery and speed is almost as broken as Fox, and can even wall chars out BETTER than Fox. I've even taken to beating Falco mains with their own character lately online just to prove a point. Anytime they start crying about the character I beat them with it, then beat all their counterpicks until they start bitching then go back to Falco to learn. I say this as fuckin Peach main lmao, ya'll falcos need to git gud.
I legitimately believe all Falco mains are just bad now. I will say for the sake of the video, I believe Falco is in the same tier as Marth, in front of him at least as of today. As good as Falco is and as good as his options are players are really figuring him out now.
I support anyone who dosent main fox and are against 20XX
falco is really fun to play just saijin
Finally someone who *cough* plays Falco...
Something about Falco as a character just calls on those who wanna be unsafe and swaggy.
Makes it seem like Falco is the problem when I player can't reel in their own hype.
Melee fox: requires so much skill and precision that requires years of practice.
Sm4sh cloud: can win really any match up by mashing buttons
I agree with falco but maaaajorly disagree with marth. He has arguably the best neutral game in all of melee. That alone would make me put him right next to fox and falco.
I'm not a Falco main, but I completely agree with what you said about Falco mains trying not to play "the lame way".
I think it has to do with the influence of the character at a very high level, since Mang0 and Westballz both like to use him hyper offensively which leads to the sick stuff you see in the combo videos. This is another reason why PP needs to come back and save the character and representation, as I truly believe he uses Falco the way he should be played because he isn't afraid to use his tools in the correct fashion. He even said he wanted Armada to hate playing against his Falco when he was on stream last month.
I agree with what you are trying to get at, but I actually think westballz is much more defensive than people think. He just chooses not to utilize lasers to their full potential. While lasers are a large chunk of Falco's defensive game, its not all of it. Falco's uptilt is another major defensive option; it works for him almost like Sheik's forward tilt. If you watch any westballz footage, you will see how much he utilizes it.
Now that you mention it, I remember Mang0 talked about how defensive Westballz is in his Falco metagame video.
Smash Jigglypuff Is Not Female people have already commented this but yeah westballz is very defensive and uses a lot of Falco tricks/gimmicks to get openings TBH
This is precisely why we need PPMD back in the scene.
Westballz is very defensive in the sense that he really wants to use up-tilt and ACBair walls, crouch cancelling, and OOS game to get openings.
Yes on stream Mango has said that Westballz is super defensive. But he's also said that his tricks and gimmicks can be learned and adapted to.
Laser spam isn't really defensive. It's control. To me, that's offense, not defense. Obviously a huge thing West is missing and something PPMD loved.
thank you *so* much for the falco portion of this video. theres always been sooooo many things falco can do, people just never took the time to work the ins and outs. to play him really well you cant have a simple playstyle, you have to really know everything you can do. and once you do, you realize that hes freaking amazing
Yes. If you learn his options and be patient, you will usually win, if you don't end up destroying your opponent.
There must be a mistake, you've clearly forgotten Kirby. He's the only one who has 5 jumps + a recovery. He can suicide kill and actually survive. If that's not top tier, I don't know what is.
TheBasileman I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not
@@roxascheesecake7928 but i can tell you replied to a dead comment
Le 8bit Spy yeah lmao
I hear that Kirby is the only character weaker than Pichu 😔
Kirby has been voted as the worst character on like 5 different tier lists
Fox
Fox
Fox
Fox
Fox
Fox
That's an unusual underrating of Jiggs. I haven't seen her below fifth in a hot minute. I'm looking forward to seeing why you think that, since you're obviously giving thorough rationales.
Kira believes that Puff is overrated because of Hbox, and that besides him there are no good Puff mains that can prove that Puff deserves a top 5 spot.
True. I also think that puff just can't survive well. It is mostly hbox though because there are hardly any seen with good results.
T1GlistenerElf personally I think that sheik Falco peach marth and fox are all better than puff because they get more results, have better options, and matchups
Pretty sure PPMD puts Capt Falcon at 5th and Peach and Puff after. Making tier lists is all about what you consider is most important.
If you see Armada and HBox winning tournaments, you might think Peach and Puff are really good.
But if you step back and see that these are the ONLY Peach and Puff mains to do well in tournament, you might change your opinion.
Kira believes that Puff as a character isn't top tier. But HBox has simply put the studying, time, and style to make Puff succeed.
It's literally Hbox being too fucking good lmao
"Falco doesn't lose any match up in the game besides Fox"
OMEGALUL
I know this is a seven year old video but...
He said that there's no reason why Sheik beats peach yet shows footage of a Peach player losing badly against the opposing Sheik
I'm glad you didn't put fox in his own tier.
A skilled Fox can beat any Roy
a skilled roy can beat any character in the game
a skilled kirby can beat any character in the game
a skilled pichu can beat any character in the game
doesn't fucking matter
This has aged well lmfao
@@coltz-pun7871 calm the fuck down
Ill take a tier list... AND POST IT
I'll take a really old comment made by a man of culture... and LIKE IT
The best character is Young Link lets be real for a moment
*Coolest
until he whiffs a grab..... TOYYAAAAAA!! *ding*
ssbrosking36 yeah he's way too cool.
I love watching camp fest between YLink and Floaties
600 hours of young link :^)
no joke tho. he's actually pretty decent, ill dare to call him viable
You really got a point with placing Peach over Shiek. You actually changed my mind about who is better. Nice work and good to see your actual thoughts, great job!
No. Just no.
I've always been a casual Smash watcher but I basically play every other fighting game out there (KOF, SF, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, you name it) but as soon as this guy said Fox's Shine was 1-frame, invincible, AND jump cancel-able, I couldn't help but laugh. How do you leave that kind of a move in ANY game?
Release dates were made from the fires of hell back then.
Excellent video! I look forward to the next few. The point that resonated the most strongly with me was Sheik's and Peach's placing.
I've never so enthusiastically agreed on a tier list before. This is nice. More of this.
Yo Kira !!!! Good vid !
Holy crap that pressure at 4:49 was insane. That was seriously some of the most awesome looking pressure I have ever seen in my life.
Also, this is just my opinion, but I disagree about Marth not being in the same tier as the space animals. Just because he has numerous flaws doesn't mean that he isn't fully capable of making up for them. Fox has numerous flaws, like his light weight and his awful range, but his strengths are good enough to cover for his flaws, primarily his overwhelming speed. I feel it is the same with Marth.
Yes, Marth's options are far more committal than either of the space animals, but this is only an issue when Marth is punished for overcommitting. If you whiff, then you can be punished far more easily as Marth than as Fox or Falco. But the solution to that problem is, unsurprisingly, don't overcommit. Not overcommitting with Fox and Falco is far more difficult than it is with Marth, but Marth can still play safe and not overcommit. As long as you do everything at the right time and place, you can't get punished for doing it at the wrong time or place. This is obviously easier said than done, but still possible with Marth. Marth has the tools and capability to win just as much as Fox or Falco, as long as you play smart enough.
I think it's kind of the same deal as it is with Falco, where the main thing is that people don't play "lame" enough. If the Marth is patient and smart enough with his play, he is perfectly capable of forcing his opponent into bad positions where Marth can safely capitalize without fear of being punished for committing, just as well as any space animal. The problem is that this type of defensive play is almost universally seen as "lame", "campy", or "slow". People don't want to play like that, and people don't want to watch play like that.
Agreed
Nice list, can't wait for part 2!
that mega man x5 soundtrack tho!!! great vid bro
Interesting video for someone like me who have a just a small amount of knowledge about competitive melee and like to watch it from time to time.
Awesome vid and very informative. I'm looking forward to the other parts.
The Street Fighter-ness of Falco is why I like him. He also just has the swagger
Fully agree with your tier list so far. Lee up the good work!
I'm really keen on seeing that low tier list!
Let's go Kira! I love you and this channel every video is such great and detailed content
Thanks SSBM this was really helpful.
I'm glad that somebody agrees with me on Falco. The only reason people think he's not as high as he was a couple of years ago is because PPMD was the only top Falco who played optimally, and obviously since then he isn't active. Westballz and Mango and the two left, and their styles lean more towards overly offensive then a good mix up between offense and defense.
In austin tx, EVERYONE plays falco so you don't need to convince me how strong that character is. ;-;
Maybe the best Tierlistvideo ever, but I think you have not explained enough why Peach and Sheik(Shiek) are so good. I know most of the viewers "Already knew"it ,but many new players watch these videos too.
when you're done with your singles tier list you should do a teams one, maybe collab with some teams specalists. good stuff as always :D
I don't know if marth is overrated or not, but I can certainly tell that in my local scene he's quite usefull... he can zone out spacies pretty consistently and sheik can be out-juggled.
spacing aereals and good wave dash/ dash dance makes players seccond guess themselves and I can capitalize on that quite easily... and he has a lot of CC options and anti CC options.
Marth is definitely overrated. He's great, but he's not nearly as great as people believe him to be.
He can zone out _Fox_, not Falco, and while his movement may be nice, he loses pretty heavily to floaty characters.
I'd say he has good CC options and good anti CC options, I wouldn't say "a lot" of them. His grab range is really nice and helps scare off the option of people CCing you.
I wouldn't say he outright loses to floaty characters, but they have an easier time punishing him than vice versa. It is hard to come back against a good Peach player that has the lead. The thing with Puff is that she can punish his laggy recovery with a rest, fairly easily. While Marth doesn't combo floaties nearly as well as fast fallers, he does out range them the whole time and tipper up-airs and up-tilts are very good on them. Dreamland can make things really difficult though for Marth vs floaties.
SolidBren
Well, I'm a marth main, and i actually like dreamland more than FoD, mabe it's just a preference thing or that I like to focus on neutral more than punishes, or mabe there are no good players here hahahaha... And yeah... floaties are difficult in the sense that you can't combo then easly... but I still think that his range is a great great benefit... oh and sheik has some "free" stuff and easy edgeguard if you have bad DI
I was gonna say something else but I forgot...
Don't get me wrong, he amazing, but the community only decides who is "top tier" by watching who their favorite player loses to.
That is true that a lot of Marths actually like Dreamland. I main Marth as well and I like Dreamland too, but I don't against Floaties. They live longer than average there (So do I), but I just like being able to kill them quicker on smaller stages like Yoshi's Story. My favorite stage overall is Final Destination, because I don't like getting stuck on platforms.
Sheik does have a very guaranteed punish game on Marth, but she does get out ranged (minus needles) and almost as easily comboed. The match-up is not as skewed at top level play, because the top Marths have great spacing. I'd agree with Marth being above Sheik, because he is probably better against spacies. Sheik and Marth have a few things that can make them better or worse depending on the context.
Nice list but Marth is #1 - you'll see soon :D
Also, cheers for not only making the best educational content for melee, but also putting so much effort and attention to detail in your fun videos. Really appreciate it man, you're the best.
Can't wait for part 2!
I'm really hoping you address some of the borderline viable characters that have made visits into top 32 like Samus, Luigi, Pika, and Yoshi. I would love to hear how viable you believe them to be or where their potential is at relative to the rest of the cast.
I am mainly a Street Fighter player, and I play Ryu & Guile the *exact* way you said that Falco should be played. That is *why* I main those characters in Street Fighter games: They can be played in such a way that forces your opponent to approach due to over-frustration in dealing with a defensive neutral. That style is even *more* effective in SF b/c of the shorter in-game clock (time over wins are easier when one round is 1m:39s) *and* the fact that you can KO an opponent with any move, including a projectile that is mainly designed for zoning (even if they block it).
For me when i play competitive in home town tournament, i play kirby. Not because hes low on a teir list, its because i love the play style and ive won some tournaments in my town with my boy Kirby.
It's funny seeing how the meta has changed since this tier list came out. Now Marth is considered really good and Falco is basically never seen as below 3rd best.
7:49 With...Her? Wat
Instead of subjective tier lists, you guys should treat it as an unsupervised machine learning problem in clustering. Does the smash community have tournament data on character match up win ratios?
There was one.
But Rudolph is currently ranked 1st in Japan not Amsa
I'm a Roy main, and I aim to beat literally every Fox I come across.
No joke.
Go to a regional tourney and see the results :) If you win, go nationals
I agree. Good outlook on everything.
It's Frickin' FOX
This is really funny for no reason
wow, what a nice song "Rob Gasser - Supersonic [NCS Release]
Thank you Kira, you gave me inspiration to play Falco again
I'm fairly certain Marth belongs above Falco. I consider them very even in power, but I think Marth wins the matchup between them, so I'd give second to Marth, personally, but not by much.
Fox's little range is the only reason that Ness-Fox is playable. Ness's only approach options in Melee (the one's with decent range and followups) -- full hop djc dair (but only viable with the threat that the Ness player might AC it), and SHFFL fair (though only at the falling angle so that Fox is in the air when Ness touches the ground) -- require the opponent to get closer, or get baited into throwing out a laggy move. As Fox has almost no laggy moves, it is a life saver that he has to approach and (assuming you have the mind-game advantage, which is arguably easier for a confident low tier) is easy to bait. Marth on the other hand does not have to come into Ness's range, and thus must be baited into throwing out a move (such as forward smash) or jumping, in contrast to Fox who has the opposite weakness.
In reality, the reasons why the Marth and Fox matchups are playable for most characters (as in not unwinnable), is that they outrange Fox, or outspeed (or at least can bait) Marth. Pretty lucky from a development standpoint, that any other characters are feasible at all.
It makes me happy to Melee knowing that I can still play the game even without playing Fox, though I understand the importance of investing in a high tier (Falco for me, with a decent Marth pocket).
The first 2:00 was the only time I've ever heard any hardcore Smash Player say something honest about tier lists.
first
Edit: Always so happy to see when there's an upload on this channel. This is definitely my favorite channel on RUclips. Fox and Falco forever
Glad someone has finally made the arguement that Peach is potentially better than Sheik. So many people say Sheik is better with out much of an argument as to why, but I agree with many of the points you made.
great vid dude^^
I love how Kira mentions that people find more ways to get out of Marths combos but fails to mention how people smash di Falcos shine now
+danklord2017 except you do SDI the shine fucktard
Everything you said is true except ,as this other guy pointed out, you are also supposed to SDI falco's shine.I forgot about sding his aerials and you seemed to have forgotten about sding his shines. So basically you have two ways to make his combos harder to follow up and since traditionally one of the reasons falco is argued as one of the best characters in the game is because of his punish game which is fairly good on every character. Power shielding is bs and will never be consistent so lasers will always exist, which is in fact what Kira focused on kinda, but the other key to falco is his punish game and while its still very good like Marth's the implementation of new techniques has hurt his punish game. I personally think Marth has a better and winning spread against top tiers (excluding sheik which he marginally loses to but I see more debate in that than against falco).Marth is better when Melee is thought of pragmatically .People often debate in hypotheticals in melee which is stupid. No one will ever perfectly power shield every laser shot every single time. If any falco fucks up, overextends, or becomes remotely repetitive in his lasers or approaches, he can be comboed to death or thrown off stage and swatted to the blast zone at zero percent EASILY by almost every character in the game, for this reason I do not think falco is second best, even if his neutral is arguably the best(by only a slight margin).He is a true glass cannon like Fox and even his phantasm is only slightly better than fox's and both can be handled fairly easily by marth. In fox falco, more and more of Falco's combos have become inconsistent with better DI, yet fox has nearly guaranteed combos and tech chase sequences where he can zero to death Falco on almost any stage, on top of out maneuvering him on platform stages, and having an uninterruptible chain grab on FD.Fox at best can get a 50 percent combo on Marth, whereas Marth at best can get a stock. Even if Marth's punish game weakens against the most popular/best character in the game, Marth's punish game is still stronger than fox's even if everyone suddenly starts pivot up tilting. Marth imo has a much better matchup against Fox which is another case why Falco should't be second.Furthermore, Falco relies on mixups too heavily in all aspects of his neutral and combos( especially with more SDI) and that inconsistency that for the most part has vanished with many other characters is why in practicality I think Falco is no longer second best.
falcon mains just felt some strange pain on their hearts
whereas we falco mains reassured ourselves, for staying faithful
I've been a ganon mian since melee even though he's slow I can still do some fun things with him
I feel like when ppmd comes back and after a few years, he will unlock the true S tier falco really is.
About your Sheik/Peach comparison, any thoughts after Armada vs Plup?
you forgot PPMD's picture on the marth side during the end!
As a Sheik main, thank you holy sh*t. Just passed the 3 year milestone, and every time I drop a spacie tech chase I struggled to earn, I die a little inside (and in the game lmao). I'm told I beat every char except spacies/puff/ICs, and yet every matchup feels disadvantageous so long as they actually understand how to space and discourage Sheik's neutral options [most/all of which shouldn't be safe in most matchups]. Puff is prob the only one I'm convinced Sheik wins tbh. Marth/Falco/Peach I feel she may go even or win on a *select few* stages. Idk. Edgeguards are free on everyone but that's about it.
I do think super consistent shield drops make her a way better char tho. Like in Marth tier (I can agree with this list for the most part). But it's hard to tell from just watching it qq. SSS 11(?) or whichever it was that the Sheik one has me convinced. Tryna get them down but jeezzz
I got a fucking 30 second unskippable ad. Kira why.
Fox
Marth
Falco
Puff
Sheik
Peach
Falcon
Ayy Mega Man X5 music! I knew I've heard that before!
great video you made me agree after every point you made
Fox and Falco definitely both top tier. Personally I would switch peach with marth because of turnips and weight/recovery options but aside from that this tier list is spot on
I have always thought falco was #2 minimum #3 nice to know you have the same opinion
yeah I main sheik in melee but not because she is top tier, in fact I used to think she was trash, until I went up against a sheik main in a casual tournament. I liked the speed of the character so I decided to use her and she is very comfortable to use
i like this list kira keepin it honest
no ppmd in the marth section at the end FeelsBadMan
Really looking forward to where my boy Falcon ends up. 20GX is coming for you.
So yes, Falco lasers are really good, but you also just made a video showing how to act out of them. Not trying to imply that they are obsolete, but if that technique works its way into the meta, I do think the sword will overtake the beak
"I think Jiggs is overrated" boy this did not age well
@Bodybag Dotzip I don't know about that. Hbox is amazing at melee, but he's only winning these tournaments with the character Jigglypuff. He's winning tournaments with the tools that puff provides him. I don't think he would have the same dominating results with someone like peach or sheik
Can't remember who said it. It was "Fox is a poorly designed character with blatantly overpowered moves." Never heard it be put like that but it sure seems true. His weaknesses seem more like coincidences then things that are actual flaws with his design. Like him being heavy seems like it was just a choice they made for him outright instead of trying to weaken him.
went in expecting to get salty, but our tier lists are exactly the same so far
I need part 2 now Kira. NOW!
Said like 2 things about peach QQ
What's your thoughts on tier "charts" that depict both effectiveness and difficulty of use rather than just flat tier lists?
For example, Fox would be top-tier in effectiveness but far into the "difficult" side of the usage axis. Meanwhile, Marth would be a little below Fox in the effectiveness axis but closer to the "easy" side of usage due to fact that Marth doesn't rely nearly as heavily on tech.
I remember that Justin Wong made a tier chart like this for UMvC3.
I'm interested to see your coming thoughts on a few that I expect to be different from the SBR tier list. Namely Falcon/Puff/Roy/Ganon/Pichu.
1:39 leffen really ranked dr Mario higher than fox.. 😂😂😂
IDC what any tiers say, C.Falcon is bae ❤
Falco’s recovery being one of the best is not a statement I agree with when we have Peach, Jiggs, Fox, and Samus. He has more options than Sheik and Marth for sure but his fall speed makes his landing more predictable and he has to commit to either side B or up B but he can’t use both kinda like Falcon. Wall jumps help them out for sure though
I agree with the puff rank. Only because while with characters like peach, there are others that main peach in the top 50...While hbox is literally THE only puff that high. (The closest was abu and he is 54th I believe) . So it makes sense.
Marf Marf Marf
Don’t mind me, I’m just having an existential crisis and mental breakdown at the same time and using melee videos to distract from my increasingly bad state of mind.
DUCK IN GAMESTOP
WHAT WILL HE BUY
Donkey Kong top tier use the special powers only RUclips admins have to change this video but not the url
If there’s a mass shooting at the AMC theater in Riverside, California at 8:30 tonight then I definitely don’t have anything to do with it yes officer hello officer I am just a normal distribu- I mean normal person just like you who would never commit a crime🙂
H
Is that enough
My top 13 list is: Fox, Falco, Marth, Skeik, Peach, Puff, C. Falcon, IC's, Pika, Samus, Luigi, Yoshi, Doc. In that order.
Falco can force opponents to shield at a long range, and beat all out of shield options. There aren't any ways to beat lasers that cannot be beaten by another of Falco's options. He can apply valid, real pressure with virtually no commitment. Laser true combos with Shine, grab, jab, up tilt, (all notable combo starters), and situationally can true combo with dash attack, fsmash, dsmash, Nair and Dair, meaning you can't ignore them.
Falco absolutely has argument for the best character still, and second is completely fair place to put him. Two thumbs up :)
Freemont Freemantle Power Shield. If he tried to approach after power shielding you have a chance to JC into a move...
There are multiple problems with PS though. One, if you assume that power shielding is consistent, then there is no reason I won't just PS the laser right back. Second, PS isn't consistent, because even with removed spring it's a two frame window on a moving target, and laser timing is easy to mix up. Third, PS is actually high risk. If you are too late, you are hit with the laser. If you are too early, you are now in shield against Falco, which is not the best place to be. Either way I have shut your movement down and I control the pace.
You are right in saying it is good, and even a 20% PS ratio can make a Falco second guess himself, but it just becomes another mixup, which I can beat with fake laser, where the audio cue plays but I shoot it too low to come out and grab you. PS is annoying. But it hardly invalidates laser. Not even close.
Freemont Freemantle I agree, but there are also options to stop falco's approach options when even failing to powershield. Even if you fail, eventually the Falco will have to approach because the opposing player would just have infinite tries to PS if he doesn't. If Falco approaches after a failed PS, there is still always JC Up-Smash or any fast move out of shield.
But then I can argue that all of your fast oos options will lose to another of Falco's options/waiting. I think you right bro PS is the best answer to laser, but it can't outright beat it.
What Kira is talking about in this video is low risk-medium reward game plan. You are thinking high-risk high-reward. If I use laser to attack (like westballz does) then I risk getting PS grabbed etc and losing all my footing. But what if I just use the laser to force you to plan around it? Without or without PS your movement is shut down. I can use laser to stop you from moving and make you plan around one option without committing to anything dangerous. That's how PPMD plays, and it is considered "lame/campy" by most. Positional advantage is so important, and Falco always has that, regardless of matchup, if he can only play smart.
Freemont Freemantle o hizo lo Koo p IP okay opolol und bin pünktlich p Öl Öl liebe Kolleginnen können ob ich Po K i'l I open op opo to be paid to haveour last conversation possible LL please op possible love a I op possibleo ok o lo ocurrido con mi o IP con ok ola juju p our m Hu on los niños se opone deoro en pool tab nozo lo ubico hzle I I'm kolbe op juju juju Koo op juju JK knoll mn oi u
great video kira (lower the music volume next time pls)
When you're final point is talking about the characters have been used by the best in the world at various points in time but don't include Puff who had both Mango and Hbox, but include sheik and then use m2k (who didn't main her compared to marth) and KDJ (who was never best in the world).
pichu is top tier obviously
Is it possible we can see CDK's Tier List after this? I think it would be sweet
She is not in the tiers you cover in the video, but I really think there needs to be more talk about how Samus is able to go toe to toe with both of the space animals. Her matchup-chart is eclectic enough where I maybe think its hard to be a top10 player with her as a solomain, but she is probably 5/5 with both of the animals, and that alone should place her quite high on the tierlist.
11:04 love the Demon Dayz reference
Great video agreed with everything
Maybe it's because I'm not that far into the community, but I feel this list is fairly standard. Actually incredibly standard
Absolutely 100% agree on Falco, and I do think Fox and Falco switch the #1 and 2 spots in PAL. I have a lot of things I could say about Falco's absence in top level play in recent years, but it has nothing to do with the merits of the character. He goes even against Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Peach, and has an edge against Puff, and if Falco mains would stop switching to their unpolished secondary like cowards and just sit down and learn Falco/Puff and Falco/Peach they'd be totally fine.
Looks like Ice really believes in Yoshi.
As a melee falco main I am pleased