Armada can lose in Winner's Semis and the ICs would never have to play him. Its a long shot but its possible. Could the ICs beat HBox is another question and I think that might be possible but I haven't watched enough of HBox vs ICs to know.
Smash Jigglypuff Is Not Female ICs can be second to last seed in the whole tournament and get to winners finals before facing armada. all they have to do is be on the other side of the bracket which has little to do with how high you are seeded. Also wobbles could have beat mango to win 2013, a supermajor which he already did that tournament
Considering they almost won evo not too long ago I'd say they can, while the rest of the characters on this list have never even come close. Icies can win if armada gets knocked out by other players, but currently thats not gonna happen. In the future it is possible.
I do agree that jiggs is overrated, but he wins hard against peach, so I have beef with peach over puff. Also, how can you justify peach at 4 when you're argument against puff is that hbox is just amazing? Armada carries peach and the next best peach is about as good as the next best puff.
Thomas Gendzwill 1. both the characters are so rare, that their mu with each other doesn't really matter that much. what matters more is thier mu vs fox. In which peach does much better. Also, peach has other highly ranked players who main her other than Armada. (tell me if you want me to look them up). And Jiggs really doesn't. It's Hbox + 1-2 more in the top 100.
Its all because of the MU spread not just because Jiggs can possibly beat peach but I do feel Jiggs was put a bit too low for my tastes, B-air is one of the big reasons Jiggs is high tier alone.
I think a significant aspect of characters like icies and jigglypuff is the psychological damage they can deal, that can make them more effective than their hitboxes and framed data alone.
"When people learn how to play against ice climbers" Bro, people have been playing against Ice Climbers for 15 years. I Personally dont agree with how low Ice climbers are. But I do think that they're over rated
trey fawley wobbling wasn't discovered until 3 years after the game came out, and was popularized until 5 years after. Shortly after it was largely banned at tourneys until 10-11 years after. So a majority of players has only been playing against good wobbling ICs for 4-5 years. Even M2K was known to have tons of trouble until recently.
I feel like this whole tier list is more or less invalidated by this video, especially in 2018. Puff is CLEARLY too low, in addition to Ice Climbers. Doc over Yoshi is also insane. I know you've got the logic that players make bad characters look good because of player skill, but I think Amsa is the exception where his work on the character proves how much potential Yoshi has in the future, whereas pretty much everyone has given up Doc in serious Melee. Avalancer taking a game off Armada is a good indicator that perhaps other Yoshi mains can prove he belongs in the high tiers, at the very least above Doc.
I just want to see more Doc, although with the new tech that people that people are discovering for him (Up-B Cancel; Coin Stalling), he seems like he'd be really technical at high level, and you might as well learn Fox or Falco in that case.
@Kif Kif, what I'm saying is that some people choose their characters based on other terms than pure optimization. Sometimes we just like characters like doc and so we play them. There are many who play fox because they find him cool and fun, but I tend to observe that most play him due to him being top tier/most optimized.
Girthquake42 You mean that tourney from 5 years ago? When shroomed still played doc? When ppmd was the best in the world? When hax played falcon? That tourney? The meta couldn't have changed at all in 5 years, right?
I've been saying this about puff forever: she camps because she has to. If she goes in or even shields, she dies at 60%. If the opponent chooses to camp also, puff struggles because she has no projectiles and is relatively slow. Picking puff is like picking a Civic in a racing game: low speed, easy control, you'll beat the lambos on all the tough stages for a long time until someone good learns the stage well enough to not lose speed and they'll zoom right past you. Only then will you realize there's nothing left you can do without switching cars.
Really hoping you keep going with this list. A lot of the ones you tend to see on yt end after high tiers when honestly mid and low tiers are probably more debated against each other's tier placing than anyone else lol
I agree with what you said at the end that all of these characters whether 9th or 5th on the list isn't that big of a difference and the skill of the player is what matters most. The fact that Wizzrobe took a set off Mew2King and Hbox with falcon and Axe took a set off M2k and Mang0 this weekend at Rivalries just proves that. If a Samus player comes out with as much skill and dedication as Armada we could see a new "god" playing Samus.
I think you seriously underrate how important arial drift is and puff having the best arial drift in the game is what makes her a top tier character. I used to be a puff main and everyone thinks the puff - fox match up is way worse than it actually is. Overall she has the best edgeguarding in the game and basically invalidates more then half the cast with bair.
I disagree that she has the best edgeguarding in the game. She can't cover enough options with fair and bair and can't rise and fall fast enough to even use those moves effectively. Sheik, Marth, Fox, and, Falco all have a more versatile set of options for edguarding
what? She can literally jump as far off the stage as she wants, I agree marth and shiek are better at edgeguarding spacies but overall puff is in a class of her own, she is the only charcter that can edgeguard samus and peach.
Hbox beats foxes all the time. If the matchup were that bad, he'd lose way more often. He's a strong player but he is not so far ahead of every player in the game that he can just win a 65-35 matchup consistently vs the other top players in the world. It's honestly 60-40 WORST case scenario for puff. Everyone exaggerates how bad matchups are for no reason.
Well I felt pretty confused myself but I feel its because Amsa is just that good like Hbox, but im pretty sure he'll be the first character in the next video. Plus Doctor Mario has better recovery options and Yoshi is harder to learn, utulize, and play around his weaknesses proof is that Amsa can be inconsistent sometimes.
aMSa is coming back, don't you worry. He is going to evo and other tournament before that. let's hope for a breakout performance like he did at apex 2015.
Kif Kif If super armor is broken at high percents hes doomed and the air dodge takes roughly almost a second of falling before ledge is grabable. Doc may have a bad up B but he has his down B for horizontal distance the jump then up B. I will say its very close but I feel doc has it a little better.
YoshiGator i'd say yoshi has more options overall as his jump goes so high whereas doc's recovery is extremely linear and predictable, also yoshi down b > doc's down b
You're right, but she dies sooner than Pichu. That's why Jiggs is bad in his opinion, perhaps be misspoke or doesn't know, but Puff does die a little sooner.
I am liking this list so far, for the most part. I think doc has a ton of potential; his matchups with the spacies is pretty good, cape is broken, pills do a ton of damage. Similar to pikachu in the way I think optimal play is focusing on gimps. I think most would call these listed in video the "mid tiers," and they are in the middle rows of your tier list image you use, after all
I think the reason Hbox does so well, besides being dedicated, is because he is ready to play the long game against the more technical characters. If he can take a Fox to multiple games that all go 6+ minutes, thats a lot of wear and tear mentally and physically on his opponents. Just a thought.
OK, I've had it with Puff "dying at low percents". That's only true off the top. Off the side, she dies at the exact same percents or HIGHER than most of the cast. Yes, it takes less to kill her off the blast zone, but that's not the only way to kill. Other characters may not die from the blast zone, but they also can't recover, so they die anyway. Or, if the do recover, it leads to death. Fox getting strong bair on Sheik (70%-80%) at the ledge won't kill her, but it guarantees an edgeguard, which leads to up-smash, which WILL kill, so it practically does that same thing. Fox getting a strong bair on Puff at similar percents won't kill Puff, and then she's damn near impossible to ledge guard. Falco dies at the lowest average percents in the game, despite almost never dying off the blast zones. The "dies easily" argument against Puff is so far behind the meta and how the game has evolved that it's stupid.
Also, Peach has it way worse vs Fox lol. So tired of hearing how bad the matchup is vs Fox for Puff when it really isn't anything that bad. People act like it's ICs vs Peach
Puff has a huge advantage against Peach and a slight advantage against Sheik. Marth and Falco matchups are probably even. How is this worse than Falcon, who loses to Sheik and Falco, and has less of an advantage (if any) against Peach? Sure, Falcon does better against Fox, but it's not a winning matchup for either character. I think you seriously understimate the psychological pressure of both Puff's rest and IC's grabs. Insta-kills are huge, and that's not going anywhere. Defensive gameplay is evolving, so using insta-kills to bypass the entire defensive game is always going to be a great advantage.
SSBMT Vods As a pocket Roy user theres no denying even from me hes still very close to the bottom, guaranteed hes just bad with a small amount of good things.
0:18 - 0:42 This is incredibly relevant and definitely a legitimate reason for ranking someone lower. Characters like Samus can have some obnoxiously bad matchups (Falcon, Marth, Sheik, Puff), yet because she fights the other top tiers so well, especially Fox and Falco (the two most prominent and dangerous characters in the meta), she enjoys a fair amount of tournament representation and success. To place your character on a tier list, you have to consider their involvement in the metagame, not just their MU spreadsheet. If you went only by MU spreads, Doc should be quite a bit higher since he beats or goes even with the vast majority of the cast, despite having losing MUs against all of the characters commonly seen in tournament.
Only against spacies, who have the best matchup against Jiggs anyway. If they're getting up-throw rested, they should just laser more instead, and Jiggs can't do much about it. And obviously DI is a thing.
noah solomon If a player gets killed at 0% because of up throw rest then they simply aren't very good. And fox can kill jigglypuff as early as 50% with up throw up air
This is another super annoying counter argument. "Just DI". Do you have any idea how hard it is to DI the up throw consistently? Puffs never go for pummels, they just grab and buffer up-throw so it's instantaneous. By the time human reaction sees you've been grabbed, the up-throw animation is already playing out. Look at how often even top top players miss the DI. It's like people saying "Puff can't jab reset rest if you hit every tech hurr durr". It will never happen consistently and Hbox kills even players like Armada, Mango, Sfat, and Leffen with up-throw rest at least once or twice per set.
DIing the up-throw is hard, sure, but just camping the Jigglypuff and not letting them grab you is less hard. Going for a grab as Jigglypuff is risky, especially since she's much worse grounded and other characters have strictly better options than she does in most situations, as Kira pointed out, and lots of times it will be really obvious when the Jigglypuff is looking for a grab. It's not that Up-throw-rest isn't good, but a good number of the other characters have safer and more consistent kill confirms and all-around better options than up-throw-rest, and are not gimped by being way lighter than most of the other high-tiers.
"i predict even hungrybox will have less and less of a chance in the future" a year later hungrybox is doing even better against foxes and a bunch of new puffs are coming out of nowhere and placing well. classic puff apologist tries to say puff isn't top tier when she very clearly is.
She is at worst top 6 below fox falco marth sheik and captian falcon. Shes anywhere from top 4-6. She clearly is top tier maybe the worst top tier but still top tier.
I know we can't ever change Melee but maaaan what I would give for Falcon's recovery to be fixed. It's not just a character change, it's a symbol. Obviously still a great character, but I don't know how you can play him without feeling cheesed every time someone gets you a bread-and-butter edgeguard.
One issue I have with this is that you spent the whole puff placement explanation on how bad puff is. Didn't say anything about up throw on fast fallers, insane gimp potential, and how even though the hitbox for rest is small it kills most of the cast at 40% I understand that puff doesn't have great matchups but spacing isn't her only good tool.
NintaiLink I thought about that, I think the reason he did that was because everyone already knows how good Puff is and he had to defend his claim that she isn't that good. He did still place her high.
Copied from another thread (sorry if it seems a bit harsh, it was directed to another comment): Everyone's saying if you "just space" things that CC becomes irrelevant, but they are vastly underestimating how difficult that is, or how often perfect spacing doesn't happen. Are any of these youtube/reddit comments even watching the same Armada vs Hbox sets? Armada gets CC shine or CC dtilt on Hbox ALL THE TIME at low percents, and Marth getting CC'd out of weak fair happens a lot.Another thing that has been bothering me is people talking about upthrow rest like I forgot about it's existence. Getting a raw grab in neutral is not something you can really rely on and requires the Fox to really mess up just to fall into the grab, and then ALSO be so caught off guard that he doesn't DI.
I'm only saying this because it struck me by surprise that a channel meant for helping new players understand melee. I feel like if i showed this video to someone who barely got into melee they would hear what you say about puff and sway away from the character. Thus causing more of the problem you talked about in the video about no one playing puff. Iv'e used so many of your videos to get friends into melee and how to understand it. I usually don't pick things out about things like this but it was something that made me worry as someone from a small community as is in New Mexico.
this video isn't meant to get people into the game, it's discussing relative character strength. the fact that your community is large or small or people trying to decide what character to main isn't really relevant to this video. If someone is going to be swayed by one person's opinion then they shouldn't really pick that character anyway
Luigi is my favorite, probably because he's so fun to play as. Whenever my friends and I pick up Melee, or any Smash for that matter, I'm always Pink Luigi man.
Marth vs Luigi is Marth favored because of dtilt beating wavedash in and Luigi being juggled. Marth can react to Luigi jumping in to beat dtilt with a jab, and then wavedash back dtilt or juggle as a mixup.
i agree with what was said about doc. as a doc main myself id argue he's better than luigi even, and i feel like an amazing doc player could consistently place top 8.
Since nobody is gonna speak up for my man Pichu I guess I'll do it. Pichu does better against Floaties than Pika, and still has an excellent punish game against Fast fallers. There it's been said. Now to all 4 pika mains, go CP those Puffs with Pichu and watch your results sky rocket. P.S. I feel Pichu deserves more credit than people give him, somewhere in the low mid tiers imo.
Well I don't really have any experience to back me up, but I'll just throw out Pichu's strenghts that people seem to over look -High mobility -Low crouch -Fast startup -0-death chain grab on spacies -Excellent edgeguard game -Nair (it's basically fox's nair shaped in a ball) -short short hop, high full hop -versatile recovery -small hurtbox -Grab range (relative to character size) is longer than pikachu's -a vertical knockback thunder (meaning that it's more likely to kill floaties -surprisingly good crouch cancel. -Low KBG on his up-air allowing for 0-death juggles on fast fallers -Deceptively strong up-smash (it's also intangible on his head, so it can be used to anit air, and I find it kills rather consistently on floaties) -Lingering F-smash (good for catching people who don't sweetspot ledge) Edit: This one is huge, but Pichu's intangible ledgedash is SUPER easy to do, and it gives him if I remember correctly (14 frames if done perfectly) so getting off the ledge is basically a non issue if you have the timing down that's really it, yea his weaknesses are obvious (still has a stubby range, recoil,light weight, no hitbox on recovery), but you play a character for their strengths and personally I can see people getting a few cheesy wins with pichu if you play things right. imo against the top tiers he does well against falco, falcon, and shiek. And from just messing around I have had more success with pichu vs Puff, samus, and peach than I have with pikachu, but hey that's just anecdotal evidence. all in all I think Pikachu is Coca-cola, and Pichu is Coca-cola zero.
Yoshi is effectively doc in the aspects of a lot of what makes doc good, yoshi is unfortunately both heavily blessed and cursed with his grab, the range is actually further than Marths grab, it just goes around the recipient at certain points. and since his recovery gets more vulnerable at higher percentages, despite that he has marth like platform tech chases, a very threatening projectile when used correctly, and abnormally big hitboxes in his nair and smashes. there is more to him but I'm just leaving it at that.
@Aksel Svendsen just because some of the cast "counters" a different cast member doesn't mean they have to be above them on the list. It's commonly known that sheik beats Marth but nine times out of ten people place Marth above sheik overall
Yeah if that were the case, puff would be 3rd at least on average. There is no way to just take into account counters accurately, since there are thousands of ways that could go, it just felt like an extra fact thrown in to support something he decided before he really knew why.
I definitely love seeing your opinion, obviously I don't matchup with it but it's interesting. With the understanding that I seek not be in conflict but to understand, I don't quite get your logic in all cases. While I definitely see your reasoning behind Icies and Puff (they had a few fascinating things in common), I don't get your reasoning behind putting Samus so low and Pikachu above her, this was perhaps the only real issue I had, but I can't seem to get past it. As I understand it, the only really good Pikachu representation comes from Axe, whereas there are 2 Samus players (admittedly one has made her a matchup specific character) at that level, and one getting better (Hugs, after some time being pretty meh, has seen some recent improvement). You mentioned how more people will get to know the Fox Puff matchup, and I would say the same could apply to the Pikachu matchup. I also think they have in common a struggle against some of the floaty characters, but the way I see it, Samus does better than Pikachu in them. My reasoning is pretty simple - Samus has, from what I can see, more options. He has aerial kill moves for one thing (not great but they can definitely kill a puff or a peach at some point, Pikachu doesn't have a Samus nair or bair), which matters a lot vs those characters when floaties live a surprisingly long time without a good setup or decently powerful move. Also, the neutral game actually isn't as bad for Samus with a properly utilized ground game, which, on Samus I think is fairly impressive. What's more, as far as setups go, Samus has a few that Pikachu doesn't as well as smash attacks of her own. Samus actually has better air mobility than Pikachu, as well as a few tricks, and as you mentioned you have to play very differently vs Samus, which makes the landing issue more overblown, and I definitely see A: kill setups, and B: landing issues with Pikachu at the higher level, granted Pikachu has could still have better landing options, but it really doesn't make sense to me here. Obviously this is but one thing I disagree with subjectively, in a tier list made by a very knowledgeable player, so I don't mean to sound argumentive, I'm just at a loss.
In short, I don't believe Samus does so much better against floaties to off-set how much better Pika does vs top tiers. She doesn't beat Peach/Puff/Falcon. Samus doesn't have "aerial kill moves" other than back air, and rarely do you ever see a Samus land random bairs on a Puff. I think Pika's neutral is better than Samus' especially against Fox and Samus' smash attacks dont really kill for a very long time. Samus does NOT have better air mobility than Pikachu, she just falls slower. Pikachu has better "tricks" imo
My tier list Top (The best characters in the game, most common in tournaments): Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach High (Great characters, but not as good as the top): Puff, Ice Climbers, Falcon, Samus, Pikachu Mid (Good, still viable characters, but harder to win with): Luigi, Doc, Mario, Ganon, Yoshi Low (Not viable main characters, but can be used in certain situations as counterpicks): DK, Young Link, Link, Game & Watch, Roy Bottom (Avoid using these characters, only useful for matchup unfamiliarity and/or disrespect): Mewtwo, Pichu, Kirby, Ness, Zelda, Bowser
I am appalled by that rest hit box. I thought my opponent had to just tough Jiggs for it to work but that... good God. Granted that move is almost always an insta-kill.
You know being that I main Doc and Ice Climbers I can see why they are on the B- Rank , the thing is I know that the Ice climbers can get separated pretty easily but there us so much you can do with them , and Doc is really fun to play with in my opinion
Tbh, i think yoshi should be at the end of b tier. Maybe you dont think he is yet, but amsa spiked a new breed of yoshis who are learning to use his tools. He can parry the speed of multishines and has tons of tricks. 20eggseggs
You didn't consider that aerial drift can negate any frame disadvantages jiggs might care about. In many situations anyways. It's a different type of safety.
I like to play dr mario against a lv 1 cpu bowser. It's fun as hell, you just down trow, up tilt, into up air mixed with up tilts and finish of with a up air double jump fair. It looks so fucking cool. And Doc has a solid match up against fox, falco and cpt falcon just because of his cape. One bad or miss-timed recovery and they are dead, and that happens quite a lot, especially if you are good at predicting/reading.
I usedto fight cpu a lot back in the days. I used to also use Ice Climbers. But at low percents. They sometimes came out of wobble. Not all the time. But sometimes they did.
People can talk shit about hbox all they want but the fact that he has been playing a not that great character with no secondaries for more than a decade against his worst matchup over and over again and still manage to be a highly consistent winner is just freaking insane.
That statement is wrong on so many levels. Puff has a losing macthup against: Fox, Marth, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Falco. She goes even with Luigi, Ice Climbers, and Doc.
i find it funny how well pikachu is regarded and how much doc is always said to have insane potential and yet neither of them are seen that much at all people really should play them more but they just seem to not pull that many people in
The reason is that people see pika and think "I could just play fox and get better results, since they are so alike" and people see doc and think "I could just play *insert top tier here* and get better results", it just leads to an endless cycle of people not putting in the time to develop the characters meta
I'm one of the rare people who thinks Luigi is top tier. I mean, the latest tier list came out in 2015, and after that, Luigi started to do very great in the metagame. He also has high tournament representation and above average results. Its no surprise to me if we see Luigi get into the top ten.
Enigma I once made a list who ranked the characters based solely on representation in the top 100 (amount they are played weighted through player rank). I took this with the assumption that every character would be played enough to where mu unfamiliarity would make up for how much objectively worse the character is. Doing this put Luigi in 9th, above Jigglypuff in 10th.
"I predict that hungrybox will have even less of a chance in the future"
...this video has not aged well.
TØM FØØLERY bro you right
I was just gonna write this lol, he's just insane
TØM FØØLERY it’s ages even worse now
Yeah except for the fact that he got destroyed by wizzrobe
@@skiddzie9291 he also got destroyed by leffen. He's still been the best for awhile
" Can Ice Climbers ever win a major? "
As long as Armada is healthy and breathing, then hell fucking no.
Armada can lose in Winner's Semis and the ICs would never have to play him. Its a long shot but its possible. Could the ICs beat HBox is another question and I think that might be possible but I haven't watched enough of HBox vs ICs to know.
For that to happen, the ICs needs to get a high enough seed not to face Armada, whichever IC that makes it that far.
Smash Jigglypuff Is Not Female Armada doesn't enter every major though
Smash Jigglypuff Is Not Female ICs can be second to last seed in the whole tournament and get to winners finals before facing armada. all they have to do is be on the other side of the bracket which has little to do with how high you are seeded. Also wobbles could have beat mango to win 2013, a supermajor which he already did that tournament
Considering they almost won evo not too long ago I'd say they can, while the rest of the characters on this list have never even come close. Icies can win if armada gets knocked out by other players, but currently thats not gonna happen. In the future it is possible.
You'll be making a whole separate video on how Ganon is actually the only SSS character in the game right?
Dante Bray i Think you meant to say Skilled Roy
I'm happy to see you bring up Luigi, considering I main him. He's just got that quirky, strange play style that I enjoy.
I do agree that jiggs is overrated, but he wins hard against peach, so I have beef with peach over puff. Also, how can you justify peach at 4 when you're argument against puff is that hbox is just amazing? Armada carries peach and the next best peach is about as good as the next best puff.
I'm guessing because Peach actually has a lot of top tier moves and good frame data, so basically more strengths and less flaws than puff
Did you just assume jigglypuff's gender?
Thomas Gendzwill 1. both the characters are so rare, that their mu with each other doesn't really matter that much. what matters more is thier mu vs fox. In which peach does much better. Also, peach has other highly ranked players who main her other than Armada. (tell me if you want me to look them up). And Jiggs really doesn't. It's Hbox + 1-2 more in the top 100.
Its all because of the MU spread not just because Jiggs can possibly beat peach but I do feel Jiggs was put a bit too low for my tastes, B-air is one of the big reasons Jiggs is high tier alone.
Brady Roose Peach doing better than Puff against fox is very arguable
I think a significant aspect of characters like icies and jigglypuff is the psychological damage they can deal, that can make them more effective than their hitboxes and framed data alone.
"When people learn how to play against ice climbers"
Bro, people have been playing against Ice Climbers for 15 years. I Personally dont agree with how low Ice climbers are. But I do think that they're over rated
trey fawley wobbling wasn't discovered until 3 years after the game came out, and was popularized until 5 years after. Shortly after it was largely banned at tourneys until 10-11 years after. So a majority of players has only been playing against good wobbling ICs for 4-5 years. Even M2K was known to have tons of trouble until recently.
No M2k was not known for having tons of trouble. A side from a few odd loses here or there, he has lost less than 10 sets vs ics in 5 years.
+ShamrockExpress101 cough cough Nintendude cough cough
That was one set over a year ago for his most recent win
Amazing, this whole video was just a big awakening to me. Shows how much i still have to learn about this game. great vid thanks
3:05 I'm pretty sure Pichu is the lightest character in the game. Jigglypuff and Game&Watch are tied for second.
Nope, from what i read, Puff and G&W are tied in lightness, both in the last spot.
Lightest viable character is close enough.
You're wrong, Seal is right
I'm not 100% certain, but I think you're right
You're right, I added an annotation to fix that. Although Puff dies off the top the soonest
I feel like this whole tier list is more or less invalidated by this video, especially in 2018. Puff is CLEARLY too low, in addition to Ice Climbers. Doc over Yoshi is also insane.
I know you've got the logic that players make bad characters look good because of player skill, but I think Amsa is the exception where his work on the character proves how much potential Yoshi has in the future, whereas pretty much everyone has given up Doc in serious Melee.
Avalancer taking a game off Armada is a good indicator that perhaps other Yoshi mains can prove he belongs in the high tiers, at the very least above Doc.
What's ironic is that this is aging poorly too, Franz is showing promise with Doc.
I just want to see more Doc, although with the new tech that people that people are discovering for him (Up-B Cancel; Coin Stalling), he seems like he'd be really technical at high level, and you might as well learn Fox or Falco in that case.
DiscoCokkroach He's my secondary but I prefer Falcon and Fox
"Might as well" unless you play characters because you like the characters. Which I know isn't optimal, but what can I say?
Up b canceling on ledge over and over
Micah Greaney are you saying some people don't play fox?
@Kif Kif, what I'm saying is that some people choose their characters based on other terms than pure optimization. Sometimes we just like characters like doc and so we play them. There are many who play fox because they find him cool and fun, but I tend to observe that most play him due to him being top tier/most optimized.
Dont compare gravy with none, wizzy, S2J (edit) this is not right.
TheEverlonglol s2g, nice...
Gravy was still godlike with the GCC, he beat axe at pound
he beat axe tho
TheEverlonglol was thinking the same thing 😂
@SSBMT Vods so did R2Dliu
Yoshi's placement though, that's where this is going to get interesting.
"killing nana is basically a kill"
I'm guessing you haven't seen Fly Amanita vs Silent Wolf at kings of cali 3, then.
For those who haven't seen it, Fly made a pretty insane comeback with Sopo to win the set. On Yoshis.
Girthquake42 or Hugs vs ChuDat Evo
Girthquake42 You mean that tourney from 5 years ago? When shroomed still played doc? When ppmd was the best in the world? When hax played falcon? That tourney? The meta couldn't have changed at all in 5 years, right?
SFAT vs Chu at EVO 2016, then.
Ross Freeman Sfat's more of a buster than Mango tbh.
The year is 2023, very funny to see how much has changed
Who want wants to bet that Kira won't put Kirby at rock bottom?
I am.
Who do you think will be at the very bottom?
.....
Bowser.
Just have a think about why I say "Bowser"
I personally think that Zelda is as bad as Bowser.
Zelda is underated as hell,
tbh, your break down on Falcon was quite eye opening. I think i might start playing this character again. Thank you
With watching these two video I can say that the meta change a lot lmao
I've been saying this about puff forever: she camps because she has to. If she goes in or even shields, she dies at 60%. If the opponent chooses to camp also, puff struggles because she has no projectiles and is relatively slow.
Picking puff is like picking a Civic in a racing game: low speed, easy control, you'll beat the lambos on all the tough stages for a long time until someone good learns the stage well enough to not lose speed and they'll zoom right past you. Only then will you realize there's nothing left you can do without switching cars.
I know this comment is two years old, but man is it great.
Really hoping you keep going with this list. A lot of the ones you tend to see on yt end after high tiers when honestly mid and low tiers are probably more debated against each other's tier placing than anyone else lol
I agree with what you said at the end that all of these characters whether 9th or 5th on the list isn't that big of a difference and the skill of the player is what matters most. The fact that Wizzrobe took a set off Mew2King and Hbox with falcon and Axe took a set off M2k and Mang0 this weekend at Rivalries just proves that. If a Samus player comes out with as much skill and dedication as Armada we could see a new "god" playing Samus.
I think you seriously underrate how important arial drift is and puff having the best arial drift in the game is what makes her a top tier character.
I used to be a puff main and everyone thinks the puff - fox match up is way worse than it actually is. Overall she has the best edgeguarding in the game and basically invalidates more then half the cast with bair.
I disagree that she has the best edgeguarding in the game. She can't cover enough options with fair and bair and can't rise and fall fast enough to even use those moves effectively. Sheik, Marth, Fox, and, Falco all have a more versatile set of options for edguarding
what? She can literally jump as far off the stage as she wants, I agree marth and shiek are better at edgeguarding spacies but overall puff is in a class of her own, she is the only charcter that can edgeguard samus and peach.
No, the puff-fox matchup is garbage for puff. If anything it's overrated. It's like a 65-35 matchup.
Hbox beats foxes all the time. If the matchup were that bad, he'd lose way more often. He's a strong player but he is not so far ahead of every player in the game that he can just win a 65-35 matchup consistently vs the other top players in the world. It's honestly 60-40 WORST case scenario for puff. Everyone exaggerates how bad matchups are for no reason.
Nice video as always Kira
no yoshi? you break my heart kira
Well I felt pretty confused myself but I feel its because Amsa is just that good like Hbox, but im pretty sure he'll be the first character in the next video. Plus Doctor Mario has better recovery options and Yoshi is harder to learn, utulize, and play around his weaknesses proof is that Amsa can be inconsistent sometimes.
aMSa is coming back, don't you worry. He is going to evo and other tournament before that. let's hope for a breakout performance like he did at apex 2015.
YoshiGator I don't see how doc has better recovery options than yoshi
Kif Kif If super armor is broken at high percents hes doomed and the air dodge takes roughly almost a second of falling before ledge is grabable. Doc may have a bad up B but he has his down B for horizontal distance the jump then up B. I will say its very close but I feel doc has it a little better.
YoshiGator i'd say yoshi has more options overall as his jump goes so high whereas doc's recovery is extremely linear and predictable, also yoshi down b > doc's down b
3:05 Jiggs is the SECOND lightest character in the game
Ummm… that's not true
IAmThe Rufflett Pichu is lighter
+RaFaReAcH It is true. The lightest characters are Pichu, then a tie between jigglypuff and g&w
My bad srry
You're right, but she dies sooner than Pichu. That's why Jiggs is bad in his opinion, perhaps be misspoke or doesn't know, but Puff does die a little sooner.
I am liking this list so far, for the most part. I think doc has a ton of potential; his matchups with the spacies is pretty good, cape is broken, pills do a ton of damage. Similar to pikachu in the way I think optimal play is focusing on gimps. I think most would call these listed in video the "mid tiers," and they are in the middle rows of your tier list image you use, after all
Im glad you tell people doc is great. Great list kira
You commentate everything so well!! I would love if you rank Sopo on your tier list in the next video :P
dude then how did hbox get top 1 for YEARS
It amazes me the fact that melee is yet to be explored even 15 years after the release
I think the reason Hbox does so well, besides being dedicated, is because he is ready to play the long game against the more technical characters. If he can take a Fox to multiple games that all go 6+ minutes, thats a lot of wear and tear mentally and physically on his opponents. Just a thought.
OK, I've had it with Puff "dying at low percents". That's only true off the top. Off the side, she dies at the exact same percents or HIGHER than most of the cast. Yes, it takes less to kill her off the blast zone, but that's not the only way to kill. Other characters may not die from the blast zone, but they also can't recover, so they die anyway. Or, if the do recover, it leads to death. Fox getting strong bair on Sheik (70%-80%) at the ledge won't kill her, but it guarantees an edgeguard, which leads to up-smash, which WILL kill, so it practically does that same thing. Fox getting a strong bair on Puff at similar percents won't kill Puff, and then she's damn near impossible to ledge guard.
Falco dies at the lowest average percents in the game, despite almost never dying off the blast zones. The "dies easily" argument against Puff is so far behind the meta and how the game has evolved that it's stupid.
Also, Peach has it way worse vs Fox lol. So tired of hearing how bad the matchup is vs Fox for Puff when it really isn't anything that bad. People act like it's ICs vs Peach
agreed
I'm glad he sees potential in doc. I don't think he even has top 100 representation. While everyone on this list has multiple people.
Jinjo ColdHumor 💯
Doc is secretly the best character in the game.
True in low and bottom tiers, but high mid tier characters usually have 1 person in the top 100 now. Examples are Yoshi and Ganon.
Shroomed plays dr. mario
Shroomed played dr. mario*
Puff has a huge advantage against Peach and a slight advantage against Sheik. Marth and Falco matchups are probably even. How is this worse than Falcon, who loses to Sheik and Falco, and has less of an advantage (if any) against Peach? Sure, Falcon does better against Fox, but it's not a winning matchup for either character.
I think you seriously understimate the psychological pressure of both Puff's rest and IC's grabs. Insta-kills are huge, and that's not going anywhere. Defensive gameplay is evolving, so using insta-kills to bypass the entire defensive game is always going to be a great advantage.
Where's my boi Roy?
in the trashcan
We know that a good Roy can beat every Fox...
exept Armada, Mango, Leffen, SFat, Ice, Lucky and Hax.
SSBMT Vods As a pocket Roy user theres no denying even from me hes still very close to the bottom, guaranteed hes just bad with a small amount of good things.
f tier
more like aaa tier get it because aaa games are bad now a days ooooo gotem boys
I agree with you list except for the placement of jigglypuff that was madness
Bowser will be the worst, i'm calling it, Kirby is ACTUALLY not THAAAT bad
I very much agree with this tier list.
0:18 - 0:42
This is incredibly relevant and definitely a legitimate reason for ranking someone lower. Characters like Samus can have some obnoxiously bad matchups (Falcon, Marth, Sheik, Puff), yet because she fights the other top tiers so well, especially Fox and Falco (the two most prominent and dangerous characters in the meta), she enjoys a fair amount of tournament representation and success.
To place your character on a tier list, you have to consider their involvement in the metagame, not just their MU spreadsheet. If you went only by MU spreads, Doc should be quite a bit higher since he beats or goes even with the vast majority of the cast, despite having losing MUs against all of the characters commonly seen in tournament.
one up throw from jiggs can end a stock. Kira, you're insane
On 2 characters and only if they don't DI lol. That being said I think she should be higher on this list
Only against spacies, who have the best matchup against Jiggs anyway. If they're getting up-throw rested, they should just laser more instead, and Jiggs can't do much about it. And obviously DI is a thing.
noah solomon If a player gets killed at 0% because of up throw rest then they simply aren't very good. And fox can kill jigglypuff as early as 50% with up throw up air
This is another super annoying counter argument. "Just DI". Do you have any idea how hard it is to DI the up throw consistently? Puffs never go for pummels, they just grab and buffer up-throw so it's instantaneous. By the time human reaction sees you've been grabbed, the up-throw animation is already playing out. Look at how often even top top players miss the DI. It's like people saying "Puff can't jab reset rest if you hit every tech hurr durr". It will never happen consistently and Hbox kills even players like Armada, Mango, Sfat, and Leffen with up-throw rest at least once or twice per set.
DIing the up-throw is hard, sure, but just camping the Jigglypuff and not letting them grab you is less hard. Going for a grab as Jigglypuff is risky, especially since she's much worse grounded and other characters have strictly better options than she does in most situations, as Kira pointed out, and lots of times it will be really obvious when the Jigglypuff is looking for a grab.
It's not that Up-throw-rest isn't good, but a good number of the other characters have safer and more consistent kill confirms and all-around better options than up-throw-rest, and are not gimped by being way lighter than most of the other high-tiers.
If I don't see Pichu in C tier I will riot
DugooTheFrog C is probably Mid Tier (i Think)
Pichu is NOT Mid Tier
"i predict even hungrybox will have less and less of a chance in the future"
a year later hungrybox is doing even better against foxes and a bunch of new puffs are coming out of nowhere and placing well. classic puff apologist tries to say puff isn't top tier when she very clearly is.
She is at worst top 6 below fox falco marth sheik and captian falcon. Shes anywhere from top 4-6. She clearly is top tier maybe the worst top tier but still top tier.
I know we can't ever change Melee but maaaan what I would give for Falcon's recovery to be fixed. It's not just a character change, it's a symbol. Obviously still a great character, but I don't know how you can play him without feeling cheesed every time someone gets you a bread-and-butter edgeguard.
Thank you SO MUCH for putting my main Luigi in there!
Thought of the same
been waiting for this to come out. fuck ya. you rock kira
One issue I have with this is that you spent the whole puff placement explanation on how bad puff is. Didn't say anything about up throw on fast fallers, insane gimp potential, and how even though the hitbox for rest is small it kills most of the cast at 40% I understand that puff doesn't have great matchups but spacing isn't her only good tool.
NintaiLink I thought about that, I think the reason he did that was because everyone already knows how good Puff is and he had to defend his claim that she isn't that good. He did still place her high.
Copied from another thread (sorry if it seems a bit harsh, it was directed to another comment):
Everyone's saying if you "just space" things that CC becomes irrelevant, but they are vastly underestimating how difficult that is, or how often perfect spacing doesn't happen. Are any of these youtube/reddit comments even watching the same Armada vs Hbox sets? Armada gets CC shine or CC dtilt on Hbox ALL THE TIME at low percents, and Marth getting CC'd out of weak fair happens a lot.Another thing that has been bothering me is people talking about upthrow rest like I forgot about it's existence. Getting a raw grab in neutral is not something you can really rely on and requires the Fox to really mess up just to fall into the grab, and then ALSO be so caught off guard that he doesn't DI.
I'm only saying this because it struck me by surprise that a channel meant for helping new players understand melee. I feel like if i showed this video to someone who barely got into melee they would hear what you say about puff and sway away from the character. Thus causing more of the problem you talked about in the video about no one playing puff. Iv'e used so many of your videos to get friends into melee and how to understand it. I usually don't pick things out about things like this but it was something that made me worry as someone from a small community as is in New Mexico.
this video isn't meant to get people into the game, it's discussing relative character strength. the fact that your community is large or small or people trying to decide what character to main isn't really relevant to this video. If someone is going to be swayed by one person's opinion then they shouldn't really pick that character anyway
Luigi is my favorite, probably because he's so fun to play as. Whenever my friends and I pick up Melee, or any Smash for that matter, I'm always Pink Luigi man.
Marth vs Luigi is Marth favored because of dtilt beating wavedash in and Luigi being juggled. Marth can react to Luigi jumping in to beat dtilt with a jab, and then wavedash back dtilt or juggle as a mixup.
It all depends on whether you value player skill, results or the character in terms of frame data and theorycrafting more than the others.
From what I've gathered basically every player ever has a different tier list. Especially past top 4 but sometimes even within that.
6:46 Yep, that confirms it. Kira, you're insane
"Jigglypuff is actually terrible"
Says the guy who think Falco's recovery is one of the best in the game
YO THERE'S 3 CLIPS OF ME
DOC
i agree with what was said about doc. as a doc main myself id argue he's better than luigi even, and i feel like an amazing doc player could consistently place top 8.
Oh hey, I'm in the background of this video lmao
Everyone seems to forget you can play as nana and have popo be the secondary one
Since nobody is gonna speak up for my man Pichu I guess I'll do it.
Pichu does better against Floaties than Pika, and still has an excellent punish game against Fast fallers.
There it's been said. Now to all 4 pika mains, go CP those Puffs with Pichu and watch your results sky rocket.
P.S. I feel Pichu deserves more credit than people give him, somewhere in the low mid tiers imo.
Sage Dragoon but fair dough 👌
Sage Dragoon Why do you think so?
Well I don't really have any experience to back me up, but I'll just throw out Pichu's strenghts that people seem to over look
-High mobility
-Low crouch
-Fast startup
-0-death chain grab on spacies
-Excellent edgeguard game
-Nair (it's basically fox's nair shaped in a ball)
-short short hop, high full hop
-versatile recovery
-small hurtbox
-Grab range (relative to character size) is longer than pikachu's
-a vertical knockback thunder (meaning that it's more likely to kill floaties
-surprisingly good crouch cancel.
-Low KBG on his up-air allowing for 0-death juggles on fast fallers
-Deceptively strong up-smash (it's also intangible on his head, so it can be used to anit air, and I find it kills rather consistently on floaties)
-Lingering F-smash (good for catching people who don't sweetspot ledge)
Edit: This one is huge, but Pichu's intangible ledgedash is SUPER easy to do, and it gives him if I remember correctly (14 frames if done perfectly) so getting off the ledge is basically a non issue if you have the timing down
that's really it, yea his weaknesses are obvious (still has a stubby range, recoil,light weight, no hitbox on recovery), but you play a character for their strengths and personally I can see people getting a few cheesy wins with pichu if you play things right. imo against the top tiers he does well against falco, falcon, and shiek. And from just messing around I have had more success with pichu vs Puff, samus, and peach than I have with pikachu, but hey that's just anecdotal evidence. all in all I think Pikachu is Coca-cola, and Pichu is Coca-cola zero.
He is definitely the cutest character in the game
Thanks god, someone who doesn't overrate puff (Forgot to comment last time I watched lol)
the ice climbers placement is insane to me lmao
PLEASE Make a "Are you a Doc Player?"
Yoshi is effectively doc in the aspects of a lot of what makes doc good, yoshi is unfortunately both heavily blessed and cursed with his grab, the range is actually further than Marths grab, it just goes around the recipient at certain points. and since his recovery gets more vulnerable at higher percentages, despite that he has marth like platform tech chases, a very threatening projectile when used correctly, and abnormally big hitboxes in his nair and smashes. there is more to him but I'm just leaving it at that.
@Aksel Svendsen just because some of the cast "counters" a different cast member doesn't mean they have to be above them on the list. It's commonly known that sheik beats Marth but nine times out of ten people place Marth above sheik overall
Yeah if that were the case, puff would be 3rd at least on average. There is no way to just take into account counters accurately, since there are thousands of ways that could go, it just felt like an extra fact thrown in to support something he decided before he really knew why.
I'm just waiting here patiently in the Kirby Corner.
"Lightest character in the game" are we forgetting about Pichu?
im predicting the mid-tiers in this order. Yoshi, Ganondorf, Mario, Young Link, Link. i could be missing a character but i think its accurate enough.
I definitely love seeing your opinion, obviously I don't matchup with it but it's interesting.
With the understanding that I seek not be in conflict but to understand, I don't quite get your logic in all cases. While I definitely see your reasoning behind Icies and Puff (they had a few fascinating things in common), I don't get your reasoning behind putting Samus so low and Pikachu above her, this was perhaps the only real issue I had, but I can't seem to get past it. As I understand it, the only really good Pikachu representation comes from Axe, whereas there are 2 Samus players (admittedly one has made her a matchup specific character) at that level, and one getting better (Hugs, after some time being pretty meh, has seen some recent improvement). You mentioned how more people will get to know the Fox Puff matchup, and I would say the same could apply to the Pikachu matchup. I also think they have in common a struggle against some of the floaty characters, but the way I see it, Samus does better than Pikachu in them. My reasoning is pretty simple - Samus has, from what I can see, more options. He has aerial kill moves for one thing (not great but they can definitely kill a puff or a peach at some point, Pikachu doesn't have a Samus nair or bair), which matters a lot vs those characters when floaties live a surprisingly long time without a good setup or decently powerful move. Also, the neutral game actually isn't as bad for Samus with a properly utilized ground game, which, on Samus I think is fairly impressive. What's more, as far as setups go, Samus has a few that Pikachu doesn't as well as smash attacks of her own. Samus actually has better air mobility than Pikachu, as well as a few tricks, and as you mentioned you have to play very differently vs Samus, which makes the landing issue more overblown, and I definitely see A: kill setups, and B: landing issues with Pikachu at the higher level, granted Pikachu has could still have better landing options, but it really doesn't make sense to me here.
Obviously this is but one thing I disagree with subjectively, in a tier list made by a very knowledgeable player, so I don't mean to sound argumentive, I'm just at a loss.
In short, I don't believe Samus does so much better against floaties to off-set how much better Pika does vs top tiers. She doesn't beat Peach/Puff/Falcon. Samus doesn't have "aerial kill moves" other than back air, and rarely do you ever see a Samus land random bairs on a Puff. I think Pika's neutral is better than Samus' especially against Fox and Samus' smash attacks dont really kill for a very long time. Samus does NOT have better air mobility than Pikachu, she just falls slower. Pikachu has better "tricks" imo
Me (someone who doesn't follow or play melee)
"Oh hey, pikachu is way higher than I thought he'd be." Sees samus "oh, we're at the unusables already"
Samus is usable tho? Samus is pretty good in Melee.
My tier list
Top (The best characters in the game, most common in tournaments): Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach
High (Great characters, but not as good as the top): Puff, Ice Climbers, Falcon, Samus, Pikachu
Mid (Good, still viable characters, but harder to win with): Luigi, Doc, Mario, Ganon, Yoshi
Low (Not viable main characters, but can be used in certain situations as counterpicks): DK, Young Link, Link, Game & Watch, Roy
Bottom (Avoid using these characters, only useful for matchup unfamiliarity and/or disrespect): Mewtwo, Pichu, Kirby, Ness, Zelda, Bowser
100% Agree
I am appalled by that rest hit box. I thought my opponent had to just tough Jiggs for it to work but that... good God.
Granted that move is almost always an insta-kill.
>Ice Climbers lose to Luigi
wait hol up hol up, why is that?
dsmash split nana easy, ics don't have any combo againts luigi and luigi does, luigi can edgeguard pretty easy.
You know being that I main Doc and Ice Climbers I can see why they are on the B- Rank , the thing is I know that the Ice climbers can get separated pretty easily but there us so much you can do with them , and Doc is really fun to play with in my opinion
kira 2016: luigi isnt underrated
kira 2017: luigi by far is the most underrated character
Finally. Someone respecting Luigi and Falcon
LUIGI UNDERRATED !! YAY LUIGI MAIN
Huh. Didn't know Jiggs's get-up attack wasn't fully invincible.
Yoshi should be on this list he has a lot of potential that i think has yet to be seen.
Apollo 99 he is in this tier list
Just not a high tier
You didn't mention doc's 4-frame pseudo shine
?
jc upB
Ah, I see
Doomgu up b cancel?
Isn't that really impractical due to how strict the execution is?
Was hoping to see Yoshi at least in part two oh well
Tbh, i think yoshi should be at the end of b tier. Maybe you dont think he is yet, but amsa spiked a new breed of yoshis who are learning to use his tools. He can parry the speed of multishines and has tons of tricks. 20eggseggs
He's right when he says skill matters more than tiers
You didn't consider that aerial drift can negate any frame disadvantages jiggs might care about. In many situations anyways. It's a different type of safety.
“Doc has to alleviate this with pills...”
HA! I see what you did there
I like to play dr mario against a lv 1 cpu bowser. It's fun as hell, you just down trow, up tilt, into up air mixed with up tilts and finish of with a up air double jump fair. It looks so fucking cool. And Doc has a solid match up against fox, falco and cpt falcon just because of his cape. One bad or miss-timed recovery and they are dead, and that happens quite a lot, especially if you are good at predicting/reading.
I usedto fight cpu a lot back in the days. I used to also use Ice Climbers. But at low percents. They sometimes came out of wobble. Not all the time. But sometimes they did.
>Not enough Ganon
great video bro!!
People can talk shit about hbox all they want but the fact that he has been playing a not that great character with no secondaries for more than a decade against his worst matchup over and over again and still manage to be a highly consistent winner is just freaking insane.
peach has like 1 good top tier matchup and puff has like 1 bad top tier matchup. This tier list is pretty questionable.
That statement is wrong on so many levels. Puff has a losing macthup against: Fox, Marth, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Falco.
She goes even with Luigi, Ice Climbers, and Doc.
@Armageddon Knight
Lmao, how are you talking about wrong statements after this monstrosity?
what monstrosity?
i find it funny how well pikachu is regarded and how much doc is always said to have insane potential and yet neither of them are seen that much at all people really should play them more but they just seem to not pull that many people in
The reason is that people see pika and think "I could just play fox and get better results, since they are so alike" and people see doc and think "I could just play *insert top tier here* and get better results", it just leads to an endless cycle of people not putting in the time to develop the characters meta
IF Bowser is gonna be put into F instead of Low Tier I'm gonna be mad triggered
Correction: Pichu is the lightest character in the game even the gallery says he is.
I'm one of the rare people who thinks Luigi is top tier. I mean, the latest tier list came out in 2015, and after that, Luigi started to do very great in the metagame. He also has high tournament representation and above average results. Its no surprise to me if we see Luigi get into the top ten.
Enigma I once made a list who ranked the characters based solely on representation in the top 100 (amount they are played weighted through player rank). I took this with the assumption that every character would be played enough to where mu unfamiliarity would make up for how much objectively worse the character is. Doing this put Luigi in 9th, above Jigglypuff in 10th.
Exactly. Not only that, but Luigi has the best wavedash in the game, which is the ultimate cheat that competitive players use.
Brady Roose you can't objectively evaluate how much match up unfamiliarity matters imo
When i saw Captain Falcon i think of ludvix getting rekt
1:12 Falcon only lost because luigi had the ceiling glitch
awesome job
when is part 3 coming out ? ;3; i really like this videos :D
Luigi is placed PERFECTLY
show this to anyone who says that only the top 5 characters are viable in melee (looking at you, sm4sh fans)
I'm pretty sure Yoshi is the only low/mid character to get top 8 at a major that had all 6 of the gods in attendance. How is he not on here yet?
That was apex when amsa got 5th right? that was super impressive, all the gods were there. Luigi hasnt been able to do that.
I think that yoshi should be at a bare minimum at the lower side of this tier. Call me crazy but personally I think he is even better than falcon.