I loved what Reno said about how black men often greet each other in public, even men they don't know personally, with a nod, an acknowledgement. I'm not black but I've noticed this and it moves me. Gay men, with some exceptions, do not do a good job of this. I've also observed this in the workplace. Racial minorities are far, far more likely to look out for and advocate for each other than gay men. Gay doesn't seem to be enough of a bond or affinity. This is so unfortunate. I think vulnerability and authenticity are so key. I'm still going to recognize my gay brothers even if they don't reciprocate right now. Maybe they will for someone else one day. Great episode!
That reminds me, there is a relatively recent concept in psychology/sociology of ‘vertical identity’ versus ‘horizontal identity’. Essentially, vertical identity (like race, most religion, most poverty, ethnicity, sex/gender, and a small number of disabilities) refers to identities which are inherited from parents or local environments shared by others in their immediate life, whereas horizontal identity (like sexuality, most disabilities, most victims of trauma, transgender/gender queer, and criminality) refers to identities which occur randomly or sporadically across broad populations. This distinction is really important to understanding how some minorities function differently fundamentally. There is a huge difference in how minorities behave when their parents do or do not share that marginal axis. In vertical identity populations, there is much more community, because their identity inherently begins at the family unit, which easily extends to other family units, often living nearby. There is also much more shared cultural contacts wherein members tend to have more shared perspectives, and importantly, a very coherent or at least discreet notion of their identity. In the context of horizontal identity, such populations are atomized, often completely isolated from others within their identity until far later in life. Some will grow up with no understanding they even have this identity, or worse actively encouraged to hate this aspect of themselves by their families and community. Then, when and if they do find like-identified persons later (many will not), they are much less likely to share interests or lifestyles because the identity has no inherent cultural localization, and no coherent notion of how to perform their identity exists outside any peer contact they are able to attain late into their acculturation. Further, sexuality also has unique challenges in terms of same-sex attracted people ultimately still falling into many mate-pairing patterns, not unlike straight people. A lot of recent research on same-sex attracted people, but especially gay men, show that in many circumstances, many come to see others in their same-sex attracted communities primarily as potential competitors. There is a simultaneous pull in one direction towards a shared marginalization and related experiences, but in the other direction many of the same wounded and paranoid behaviors observed between straight men and women. So in short, I think it’s in some ways unrealistic to expect race and sexuality to work the same way because both groups are dealing with fundamentally different circumstances and challenges. Some of the difference is structural, and I don’t know how to overcome the inherently atomized nature of being gay as an identity (outside of something not even on the table, like some kind of state-sponsored educational program). Something like normalized greeting between gay men who are strangers would be difficult to accomplish as a cultural norm. But we can at least stake out spaces and establish etiquettes there, so maybe it would be possible to move in that direction to some degree. (A lot of these problems are discussed a lot more in disabled communities, of which I’m a part, because it’s understood as one of the principle barriers to advocacy there. That’s actually where I first encountered most these ideas.)
Thank you so much for sharing this! We’re so glad the podcast resonated with you and that it found its way to you. Sending you lots of love and connection from our generation to yours!🥰
Thank you guys so much for this discussion. Funny how we think we are the only ones who think we don't fit in. Thank you for normalizing this. For a long time, I have felt like I don't belong. I've felt weird, odd, awkward, etc. As I grow older, I have learned to give myself grace for feeling this way. However, when I do find myself meshing with people who are on the same wavelength, I get this intense warm and fuzzy feeling that makes me want to cry. That's when I feel like I found my tribe. Those have been some of the best moments.
I feel exactly the way Matt describes in this video around the 15:00 mark of this video. And as I've gotten older I feel even more different and excluded due to my age. It seems impossible to meet a group of guys who are like me who want to just hang out with and do random things like meet for dinners, go to a movie, travel. I'm tired of how superficial the "scene" feels and want to communicate on a more deeper level than hearing other gay men continually focused on sex, parties and bars.
As a gay Asian male I often feel ostracized from the gay community. I can meet some nice gay men one on one but in a broader sense I know many gay men are not interested in getting to know me. For Asian Americans this is not just relegated to the gay community (straight Asian people also face subtle and not so subtle racism all the time), but it feels worse when you’re gay. I think many of us hoped we would be accepted in the gay community, but we face the same kind of stereotyping and dismissal and we are gay. So it all feels extra painful.
@@mempto yes for sure, and it doesnt help that other gazns are bitchy or unfriendly because they see you as competition or only want to hang out with 'cool' people. Or there is only one token Azn in a friend group! It is a funny sociological study.
Thank you for sharing your experience-we can hear how deeply painful it is to face that kind of exclusion. We hope you find spaces where your full self is truly seen and valued. You deserve that, just like anyone else in the community.🌈
Nah, it's just your peer group. But it's also impacted by what you do. Say you like comic books, do that. Eventually you find a friend who loves it as much as you. At the end of the day it's not that you're Asian, it's the fact that there are queens out there that are put off because more often than not you are CONFIDENT. But the community breeds narcissism. It's just being around the men that enjoy the parts of you as much as you do.
“If you don’t find the space, make it”, brilliant! I actually was one of the founders of the lgbt+ alumni group in my uni, trying to connect with professionals some years ago. Now I found not one, but two queer dance groups, and I’ve made great friends. My husband has found groups for rock climbing, running marathons and playing board games as week! And yeas, we have our clubbing friends, but also friends to go to museums, concerts, plays, and even traveling. Maybe virtual groups are not for everyone, but I love being part of the brotherhood, I never thought I’d be part of a digital group like this, and listening to you every week lifts me up so much. So I hope everyone finds their groups x
This is the 2nd time watching this podcast because I can relate to its message. You guys always help me deal with Gay issues that affect my thoughts and demeanor. I've recently discovered your Facebook Gay Men's Brotherhood group and have participated with ease; the feedback has been sparse but that won't deter my interest. Being part of a small live group on the 2nd Thursday of the month might be something worth exploring - I'll look into it. Thanks again for giving the Brotherhood valuable information. ❤ Gary
Thank you, Gary! We're glad that the topics you've watched resonated with and we're excited to have on our upcoming events. We have a Sharing Circle this Thursday, kindly see the details on the Events tab on the Facebook group. See you there!🥰
I'm 74 now and went through a lot of attitude changes about belonging to the gay community. Camaraderie is a joy but not indestructible. Feeling connected will vary. Just roll with it. Disappointments and special times come and go. Be you but if you can't, be cautious or leave. No one is a true lone wolf nor everybody's pal.
I'm guilty of what Matt talked about in terms of "rejecting before being rejected". I've developed bad habits based on that like what Reno says about acting aloof or macho around new people, especially someone I find attractive. In some ways it's also about hiding my gayness (when I let my guard down, my mannerisms -- blushing, talking with my hands, etc -- come through). I'm glad I'm at least aware of the problem and can take steps to being willing to open up when I feel safe rather than shutting out completely everyone I meet.
I'm now considered old and do not have any gay friends. I appear to be completely invisible to other gay men. Yet straight men speak to me, or at least acknowledge me. Why do so many gay men ignore other gay men if they don't find them attractive? I'll happily say hello but the look of disgust on their faces tells me they don't want an interaction with me. I find it sad.
Thank you for sharing that. It’s heartbreaking to feel invisible in a community where we should all feel a sense of belonging. We hope you find more connections with people who see and appreciate you for who you are, not just how you look.🥰
I want to offer a different POV and my experience. My intention is not to be contentious but I want to offer it if it relates to anyone else. I do not believe the gay community is an actual community. I do not believe that being gay makes you a community. (Why else would we keep having these conversations and why else would this be a recurring theme if it was a community?) That word “community” is supposed to connote a sense of belonging. However, what is it that I was actually trying to belong to? I personally just call it a “population” now, instead of a community. (This is my experience if you want to read) In my experience, especially in my formative gay years (2010; I was about 19 years old), it was incredibly detrimental when people kept reinforcing this “community” and creating this rhetoric of “just be yourself; don’t hide, show your pride; it gets better; you’re safe here”. Then using these “dating/hookup” apps and seeing “no fats, no fems, no Asians”, it made me wonder why do I want to belong to this community? Is it a community? And it made me regret coming out at all. Of course, using those apps is not great for building a community. I can understand not being someone’s preference, but why would I want to belong to this “community”? I kept trying to go to Pride events but It felt like I was fighting for someone else’s Pride. Then people keep making excuses “well, there are many parts of a community…” but why would I still want to belong to that though? I’ve grown since then and I found belonging elsewhere. My friends are my community. Some of them are gay/ lesbian/ trans etc but that is not what makes us a community.
I absolutely love this perspective and really align with it myself. I am going to replace gay community with population as well. Communities can form out of this population if we choose to want to form one or belong to an existing one.
@@mattlandsiedel I personally would love to hear more on why and how gay/queer people keep calling it a "community" and how do they define a "community". I think that's why a lot of gay men are disappointed and jaded because their definitions and expectations of a community far from match with reality and that can be based on a number of factors i.e. geography, bias, race.
It takes time to feel almost happy through aging. It can’t be rushed. Sometimes quickly sometimes slowly but it will always materialize if you work for it.
I think its because being gay comes with a long timeline of trauma from when we first realize our feelings, to the horrifying perception of what would happen if our friends, family and peers find out. When gays tend to congregate its like we have this place where they spill all their trauma in a toxic and unhealthy way. Generations of hatred, shame, and not feeling adequate enough for this heteronormative society takes a major toll on the gay and queer community in general. I find it hard to be spiteful or condemn the gay community because i am sympathetic enough to know that generally there is a lot of mental trauma unburdening that occurs throughout a gay mans life.
I love how you guys open yourselves up each time when discussing the podcast topics! thank you for this episode from the bottom of my heart 💕 I myself as a gay man, who feels a lot of the times alienated and alone in this community, it is so nice to see, that we have souls in this community who value kind, authentic and open-hearting human relating ❤I am part of this community, who values physical intimacy more as a kind and genuine conversation and discussion. It breaks my heart, but I learnt how to shield myself from those interactions where I can be excluded based on what I value and invest in like opening up in a kind and constructive discussion and what I cannot let in, like a quickie without emotional implications. Keep up doing the good work, even if the majority maybe still craves the superficial, there is a handful of people that enjoys deep discussions and a vulnerable soul. Thanks again ☺
Another very real, and valuable, topic! I've never felt completely welcome in the Gay community and seem to gravitate toward straight events/places/clubs, etc. It's unfortunate for sure.
Michael brings up some very valid points at the outset. Reno subsequently brings up another thing that rings true with me; I realize and accept I don't belong to certain aspects of the gay community. I've gotten to the point where I try to stay in the present, realize my gayness is but one part of me, and hopefully will find my tribe within the gay community.
So much here that resonates with me..tried to reconnect with the community...didnt work out, was no better than in the past, maybe worst. So now on my own. But more contented
I feel like for me what makes me feel like i dont belong in the community is my personality and racism i feel like when my personality comes out i start to feel like i might rub people the wrong way and other gay black men wouldnt want to hangout with me, plus im not the most fashionable person either, as far the white gay community im afraid im might come across someone who is racist or that I'll half to deal with alot of racism coming from the gay white community, at their clubs and bars
Thank you for sharing this-it’s heartbreaking that you’ve had these experiences, but please know you deserve spaces where your personality is celebrated, and you’re treated with respect and kindness. ❤
On the subject of us yearning for relationships, we gotta become relatable with one another. We gotta do more than tell each other on line how attractive we are and what we want to do sexually with each other. We ghost each other and complain about our loneliness and community impoverishment issues. Personally I am over it.
I don't fit in now that I'm in my early 60s. I'm a grief and loss social worker at a hospice. I have many straight friends. I went to a pride event and was totally ignored and I think another reason I'm overlooked is because I have gained weight, I used to be a very slim guy and had a lot of straight men coming on to me. I have signed up for gay dating so I'm getting out there
I feel like I don't belong in the gay community because I feel like I am the only one who wants emotional intimacy before sex; who does not want to be treated like a sex toy instead of a human being; who thinks that love, not sex, is primary.
I was never good dealing with boys when growing up, games, conversation, the whole dynamic. Years later I find out I like them that way... I did not learn to "play with the other boys", nowadays that is costing me dearly.
Thank you for sharing that. It’s really tough when those early experiences carry into adulthood, but the fact that you’re reflecting on it now is already a huge step. Be kind to yourself.🥰
The way in which i don't belong in the gay community is that i find the pop diva gays and the whole culture around it insufferable. Do i like pop? Yes i do, but im also a metalhead and very eclectic overall when it comes to music and the utter obssession with pop and the pop girlies is tough to undure. I've even seen the story of a couple where one of the men was thinking about ending things because his boyfriend could not stop talking about taylor swift the whole fucking day everyday and he couldnt handle it anymore lol its too much sometimes.
Being a middle-aged gay man who came out late in life, I have never really felt like a part of the larger gay community. Just as I was ostracized for not being "straight enough" around straight nen; I have also been aware of not being "gay enough" around gay men. It's been really tough 😪
Thank you for sharing that-it’s really tough when you feel like you don’t quite fit in either space. Sending you a lot of warmth as you navigate this journey.💕
for me and mental trauma it's going to be the stereotype sex positions. in dating it seems like all my boyfriends were tops. im versatile but now I haven't topped in about a year or so. my boyfriend and I stated we are verse on jackd but since then for about to years ive been the bottom. i don't know if men scare me into being a bottom or society and social norms. now of days it's what people are saying that their are no more tops and everyone is either a bottom or verse. one day I was taking a walk and this guy saw me and threating me saying he was going to blow my head off if im seen walking down the street. idk if it's because the clothes I wear or he say something in me from my sexual position. since then i got traumatized and changed my position again from being verse or bottom to top. then afterwards through many sexual encounters and dating I felt like I had no fear, and that I was the man. i slowy grew out of that and begain to be a verse again or a bottom. my trauma came back to me again about the guy in the car, people telling me to man up, bottoms treating me not so well or at least I thought they were. now im feeling torn again and sometimes I would get neck from my boyfriend of two years of him being a top and wanting me to top. but I don't want to mess that up. idk what's going on and people seem to read me gay or straight, saying things about my sexual position like calling me girl, or you should be the girl, or you should be a mean girl (bottom) or saying things like "I know you" etc. this happen or stuff like this happen through out 5 or 6 years ago..I don't know if it's bad energy, or other peoples bad energy..im torn...any advice?
Thank you for sharing such a vulnerable part of your journey. It's okay to take the time to figure out what feels right for you without letting others dictate that. It might help to talk to someone you trust or a professional who can support you through these feelings. You deserve to feel safe and comfortable being your full self, however that looks.💕
Just finished listening, so funny that you make such a differentiation between gays who are in grindr and gays who participates in other platforms, they are the same people the most of the time! So what? When they logging in they become a weed while when they meeting outsides they return to their true flower?! Come on. I did a short group LGBT therapy where I tried to face the problems you described. I never was a person who tried to fit in forcefully, im very opposing when i dont feel like i should fit in a certain place with certain "qualities" that i dont like, so this is not my problem. I got myself frustrated when I tried over and over to "find my people" especially among men. When it come to men, I never get satisfied with close connections, it always feel to me like they after interests, its never me they after, its the seuxal desires or romantic delusions. I got to the conclusion that trying to prove to myself that maybe there are people who aren't selfish and do love me just because of who I am is useless. I shouldn't repeat the experiment over and over expecting different results, by doing that I'm only making myself miserable and disappointed. People are superficial and selfish, that's why they are around, its time I take it as a fact and stop expecting something else. The question is, what's next. Currently my answer is that I will never get satisfied with connections knowing the truth about human nature, and I should stop seeking to be satisfied from it, its time to grow up, and stop feeling sorry about loneliness and unbelonging, and start finding satisfaction in being solo.
Thanks for sharing your journey and perspective so openly. It’s so hard when repeated experiences lead us to question whether genuine, selfless bonds are even possible. Embracing the strength in being solo sounds like a courageous next step, but we hope you’ll keep a little space open for those who might surprise you along the way.😍
I used to say, I'm queer for a Queer. Also, I say I am Uniquely Designed. That's a polite way of saying I'm weird. I have never truly fit in with any group. I always say, I'm too Gay for the Church and too churchy for the Gay community.
I'm so agree with Michael......1000000%, this is why I don't belong to the gay community.it's all about outside...size matter, clothing matter etc.etc...our community gets more lots from them self more and more. this is not what I want, and I feel very safe and good. what I Hear most, based on my own experiences ist, that gay people pretend, the rest of the world has to accept for who we are. BUT WHY WE DON'T ACCEPT OURSELF IN THE GAY COMMUNITY?? it start there......
I've tried to get deeper with you guys, but you are way over my head. I'm unsubscribed now. I can't get past your frequent use of the word "qveer" . I'm a 70-year-old gay man & am tired of young people using that word as synonymous with gay. My husband of 45 years together are isolated from the Gay community. When we were younger we were quite involved. We even went to the March on Washington (DC) years ago. Goodbye & hope other's can benefit from your discussions, i cannot. I think I'm just too old.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and we truly respect your feelings. We wish you both the best, and thank you for being part of the movement that paved the way for many of us.❤🌈
to me, this has been the most valuable and important episode yet. i also want to say that i appreciate the phrasing that each of you use which reveals your good hearts. ❤🪷🌈
I loved what Reno said about how black men often greet each other in public, even men they don't know personally, with a nod, an acknowledgement. I'm not black but I've noticed this and it moves me. Gay men, with some exceptions, do not do a good job of this. I've also observed this in the workplace. Racial minorities are far, far more likely to look out for and advocate for each other than gay men. Gay doesn't seem to be enough of a bond or affinity. This is so unfortunate. I think vulnerability and authenticity are so key. I'm still going to recognize my gay brothers even if they don't reciprocate right now. Maybe they will for someone else one day. Great episode!
Thank you for noticing what Reno said and we totally agree with you!🥰
That reminds me, there is a relatively recent concept in psychology/sociology of ‘vertical identity’ versus ‘horizontal identity’. Essentially, vertical identity (like race, most religion, most poverty, ethnicity, sex/gender, and a small number of disabilities) refers to identities which are inherited from parents or local environments shared by others in their immediate life, whereas horizontal identity (like sexuality, most disabilities, most victims of trauma, transgender/gender queer, and criminality) refers to identities which occur randomly or sporadically across broad populations. This distinction is really important to understanding how some minorities function differently fundamentally. There is a huge difference in how minorities behave when their parents do or do not share that marginal axis.
In vertical identity populations, there is much more community, because their identity inherently begins at the family unit, which easily extends to other family units, often living nearby. There is also much more shared cultural contacts wherein members tend to have more shared perspectives, and importantly, a very coherent or at least discreet notion of their identity.
In the context of horizontal identity, such populations are atomized, often completely isolated from others within their identity until far later in life. Some will grow up with no understanding they even have this identity, or worse actively encouraged to hate this aspect of themselves by their families and community. Then, when and if they do find like-identified persons later (many will not), they are much less likely to share interests or lifestyles because the identity has no inherent cultural localization, and no coherent notion of how to perform their identity exists outside any peer contact they are able to attain late into their acculturation.
Further, sexuality also has unique challenges in terms of same-sex attracted people ultimately still falling into many mate-pairing patterns, not unlike straight people. A lot of recent research on same-sex attracted people, but especially gay men, show that in many circumstances, many come to see others in their same-sex attracted communities primarily as potential competitors. There is a simultaneous pull in one direction towards a shared marginalization and related experiences, but in the other direction many of the same wounded and paranoid behaviors observed between straight men and women.
So in short, I think it’s in some ways unrealistic to expect race and sexuality to work the same way because both groups are dealing with fundamentally different circumstances and challenges. Some of the difference is structural, and I don’t know how to overcome the inherently atomized nature of being gay as an identity (outside of something not even on the table, like some kind of state-sponsored educational program). Something like normalized greeting between gay men who are strangers would be difficult to accomplish as a cultural norm. But we can at least stake out spaces and establish etiquettes there, so maybe it would be possible to move in that direction to some degree.
(A lot of these problems are discussed a lot more in disabled communities, of which I’m a part, because it’s understood as one of the principle barriers to advocacy there. That’s actually where I first encountered most these ideas.)
I'm 55 and it's incredible how these feelings have not changed generation to generation. Thank y'all for this podcast, so glad it found me.
Thank you so much for sharing this! We’re so glad the podcast resonated with you and that it found its way to you. Sending you lots of love and connection from our generation to yours!🥰
Thank you guys so much for this discussion. Funny how we think we are the only ones who think we don't fit in. Thank you for normalizing this. For a long time, I have felt like I don't belong. I've felt weird, odd, awkward, etc. As I grow older, I have learned to give myself grace for feeling this way. However, when I do find myself meshing with people who are on the same wavelength, I get this intense warm and fuzzy feeling that makes me want to cry. That's when I feel like I found my tribe. Those have been some of the best moments.
Thank you for sharing that! We're so glad you’ve experienced that warmth-it really is one of the best feelings!❤
I feel exactly the way Matt describes in this video around the 15:00 mark of this video. And as I've gotten older I feel even more different and excluded due to my age. It seems impossible to meet a group of guys who are like me who want to just hang out with and do random things like meet for dinners, go to a movie, travel. I'm tired of how superficial the "scene" feels and want to communicate on a more deeper level than hearing other gay men continually focused on sex, parties and bars.
Thank you for noticing what Matt said and we're glad that it resonated with you.
We had some awesome conversations in this episode!
As a gay Asian male I often feel ostracized from the gay community. I can meet some nice gay men one on one but in a broader sense I know many gay men are not interested in getting to know me. For Asian Americans this is not just relegated to the gay community (straight Asian people also face subtle and not so subtle racism all the time), but it feels worse when you’re gay. I think many of us hoped we would be accepted in the gay community, but we face the same kind of stereotyping and dismissal and we are gay. So it all feels extra painful.
@@mempto yes for sure, and it doesnt help that other gazns are bitchy or unfriendly because they see you as competition or only want to hang out with 'cool' people. Or there is only one token Azn in a friend group! It is a funny sociological study.
Thank you for sharing your experience-we can hear how deeply painful it is to face that kind of exclusion. We hope you find spaces where your full self is truly seen and valued. You deserve that, just like anyone else in the community.🌈
True same for us blacks in mostly white country or environment.😢
Nah, it's just your peer group. But it's also impacted by what you do. Say you like comic books, do that. Eventually you find a friend who loves it as much as you.
At the end of the day it's not that you're Asian, it's the fact that there are queens out there that are put off because more often than not you are CONFIDENT. But the community breeds narcissism. It's just being around the men that enjoy the parts of you as much as you do.
“If you don’t find the space, make it”, brilliant! I actually was one of the founders of the lgbt+ alumni group in my uni, trying to connect with professionals some years ago. Now I found not one, but two queer dance groups, and I’ve made great friends. My husband has found groups for rock climbing, running marathons and playing board games as week! And yeas, we have our clubbing friends, but also friends to go to museums, concerts, plays, and even traveling. Maybe virtual groups are not for everyone, but I love being part of the brotherhood, I never thought I’d be part of a digital group like this, and listening to you every week lifts me up so much. So I hope everyone finds their groups x
This is the 2nd time watching this podcast because I can relate to its message. You guys always help me deal with Gay issues that affect my thoughts and demeanor. I've recently discovered your Facebook Gay Men's Brotherhood group and have participated with ease; the feedback has been sparse but that won't deter my interest. Being part of a small live group on the 2nd Thursday of the month might be something worth exploring - I'll look into it. Thanks again for giving the Brotherhood valuable information. ❤ Gary
Thank you, Gary! We're glad that the topics you've watched resonated with and we're excited to have on our upcoming events. We have a Sharing Circle this Thursday, kindly see the details on the Events tab on the Facebook group. See you there!🥰
STAY CURIOUS
don't jump
to conclusions
try to keep it open
///rwh///
You're doing important work to help us all. Thank you!
We're glad to be of help and thank you, we appreciate it.😍
I'm 74 now and went through a lot of attitude changes about belonging to the gay community. Camaraderie is a joy but not indestructible. Feeling connected will vary. Just roll with it. Disappointments and special times come and go. Be you but if you can't, be cautious or leave. No one is a true lone wolf nor everybody's pal.
You are right! Always choose yourself first.😊
I'm guilty of what Matt talked about in terms of "rejecting before being rejected". I've developed bad habits based on that like what Reno says about acting aloof or macho around new people, especially someone I find attractive. In some ways it's also about hiding my gayness (when I let my guard down, my mannerisms -- blushing, talking with my hands, etc -- come through). I'm glad I'm at least aware of the problem and can take steps to being willing to open up when I feel safe rather than shutting out completely everyone I meet.
Yep. Me too. So many amazing opportunities but I had to get the rejection in first 😢
Thanks for pointing that one out. We're glad it resonated with you.♥
I'm now considered old and do not have any gay friends. I appear to be completely invisible to other gay men. Yet straight men speak to me, or at least acknowledge me. Why do so many gay men ignore other gay men if they don't find them attractive? I'll happily say hello but the look of disgust on their faces tells me they don't want an interaction with me. I find it sad.
Thank you for sharing that. It’s heartbreaking to feel invisible in a community where we should all feel a sense of belonging. We hope you find more connections with people who see and appreciate you for who you are, not just how you look.🥰
@@GayMenGoingDeeper Thanks.
I want to offer a different POV and my experience. My intention is not to be contentious but I want to offer it if it relates to anyone else. I do not believe the gay community is an actual community. I do not believe that being gay makes you a community. (Why else would we keep having these conversations and why else would this be a recurring theme if it was a community?) That word “community” is supposed to connote a sense of belonging. However, what is it that I was actually trying to belong to? I personally just call it a “population” now, instead of a community.
(This is my experience if you want to read)
In my experience, especially in my formative gay years (2010; I was about 19 years old), it was incredibly detrimental when people kept reinforcing this “community” and creating this rhetoric of “just be yourself; don’t hide, show your pride; it gets better; you’re safe here”. Then using these “dating/hookup” apps and seeing “no fats, no fems, no Asians”, it made me wonder why do I want to belong to this community? Is it a community? And it made me regret coming out at all. Of course, using those apps is not great for building a community. I can understand not being someone’s preference, but why would I want to belong to this “community”? I kept trying to go to Pride events but It felt like I was fighting for someone else’s Pride. Then people keep making excuses “well, there are many parts of a community…” but why would I still want to belong to that though? I’ve grown since then and I found belonging elsewhere. My friends are my community. Some of them are gay/ lesbian/ trans etc but that is not what makes us a community.
I absolutely love this perspective and really align with it myself. I am going to replace gay community with population as well. Communities can form out of this population if we choose to want to form one or belong to an existing one.
@@mattlandsiedel I personally would love to hear more on why and how gay/queer people keep calling it a "community" and how do they define a "community". I think that's why a lot of gay men are disappointed and jaded because their definitions and expectations of a community far from match with reality and that can be based on a number of factors i.e. geography, bias, race.
It takes time to feel almost happy through aging. It can’t be rushed. Sometimes quickly sometimes slowly but it will always materialize if you work for it.
Agreed! There's no need to hurry.😉
I think its because being gay comes with a long timeline of trauma from when we first realize our feelings, to the horrifying perception of what would happen if our friends, family and peers find out. When gays tend to congregate its like we have this place where they spill all their trauma in a toxic and unhealthy way. Generations of hatred, shame, and not feeling adequate enough for this heteronormative society takes a major toll on the gay and queer community in general. I find it hard to be spiteful or condemn the gay community because i am sympathetic enough to know that generally there is a lot of mental trauma unburdening that occurs throughout a gay mans life.
I love how you guys open yourselves up each time when discussing the podcast topics! thank you for this episode from the bottom of my heart 💕 I myself as a gay man, who feels a lot of the times alienated and alone in this community, it is so nice to see, that we have souls in this community who value kind, authentic and open-hearting human relating ❤I am part of this community, who values physical intimacy more as a kind and genuine conversation and discussion. It breaks my heart, but I learnt how to shield myself from those interactions where I can be excluded based on what I value and invest in like opening up in a kind and constructive discussion and what I cannot let in, like a quickie without emotional implications. Keep up doing the good work, even if the majority maybe still craves the superficial, there is a handful of people that enjoys deep discussions and a vulnerable soul. Thanks again ☺
Thank you for noticing that, we appreciate it a lot!😍
Another very real, and valuable, topic! I've never felt completely welcome in the Gay community and seem to gravitate toward straight events/places/clubs, etc. It's unfortunate for sure.
We're sorry to hear that and we hope this episode is an eye-opener.🥰
I know this is shallow, but I really appreciate Michael showing off his chest hair!
Michael brings up some very valid points at the outset. Reno subsequently brings up another thing that rings true with me; I realize and accept I don't belong to certain aspects of the gay community. I've gotten to the point where I try to stay in the present, realize my gayness is but one part of me, and hopefully will find my tribe within the gay community.
So much here that resonates with me..tried to reconnect with the community...didnt work out, was no better than in the past, maybe worst. So now on my own. But more contented
I feel like for me what makes me feel like i dont belong in the community is my personality and racism i feel like when my personality comes out i start to feel like i might rub people the wrong way and other gay black men wouldnt want to hangout with me, plus im not the most fashionable person either, as far the white gay community im afraid im might come across someone who is racist or that I'll half to deal with alot of racism coming from the gay white community, at their clubs and bars
Thank you for sharing this-it’s heartbreaking that you’ve had these experiences, but please know you deserve spaces where your personality is celebrated, and you’re treated with respect and kindness. ❤
@@GayMenGoingDeeper thank you
Thank you for the video.
Thank you too for watching!😉
On the subject of us yearning for relationships, we gotta become relatable with one another. We gotta do more than tell each other on line how attractive we are and what we want to do sexually with each other. We ghost each other and complain about our loneliness and community impoverishment issues. Personally I am over it.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, we appreciate it!🤩
I don't fit in now that I'm in my early 60s. I'm a grief and loss social worker at a hospice. I have many straight friends. I went to a pride event and was totally ignored and I think another reason I'm overlooked is because I have gained weight, I used to be a very slim guy and had a lot of straight men coming on to me. I have signed up for gay dating so I'm getting out there
I feel like I don't belong in the gay community because I feel like I am the only one who wants emotional intimacy before sex; who does not want to be treated like a sex toy instead of a human being; who thinks that love, not sex, is primary.
Thank you for sharing your experience and we're sorry you have to feel that way. We hope you find someone who will love you purely.😍
I was never good dealing with boys when growing up, games, conversation, the whole dynamic. Years later I find out I like them that way...
I did not learn to "play with the other boys", nowadays that is costing me dearly.
Thank you for sharing that. It’s really tough when those early experiences carry into adulthood, but the fact that you’re reflecting on it now is already a huge step. Be kind to yourself.🥰
The way in which i don't belong in the gay community is that i find the pop diva gays and the whole culture around it insufferable. Do i like pop? Yes i do, but im also a metalhead and very eclectic overall when it comes to music and the utter obssession with pop and the pop girlies is tough to undure. I've even seen the story of a couple where one of the men was thinking about ending things because his boyfriend could not stop talking about taylor swift the whole fucking day everyday and he couldnt handle it anymore lol its too much sometimes.
Being a middle-aged gay man who came out late in life, I have never really felt like a part of the larger gay community. Just as I was ostracized for not being "straight enough" around straight nen; I have also been aware of not being "gay enough" around gay men. It's been really tough 😪
Thank you for sharing that-it’s really tough when you feel like you don’t quite fit in either space. Sending you a lot of warmth as you navigate this journey.💕
important issue to address!
Thank you!❤
for me and mental trauma it's going to be the stereotype sex positions. in dating it seems like all my boyfriends were tops. im versatile but now I haven't topped in about a year or so. my boyfriend and I stated we are verse on jackd but since then for about to years ive been the bottom. i don't know if men scare me into being a bottom or society and social norms. now of days it's what people are saying that their are no more tops and everyone is either a bottom or verse. one day I was taking a walk and this guy saw me and threating me saying he was going to blow my head off if im seen walking down the street. idk if it's because the clothes I wear or he say something in me from my sexual position. since then i got traumatized and changed my position again from being verse or bottom to top. then afterwards through many sexual encounters and dating I felt like I had no fear, and that I was the man. i slowy grew out of that and begain to be a verse again or a bottom. my trauma came back to me again about the guy in the car, people telling me to man up, bottoms treating me not so well or at least I thought they were. now im feeling torn again and sometimes I would get neck from my boyfriend of two years of him being a top and wanting me to top. but I don't want to mess that up. idk what's going on and people seem to read me gay or straight, saying things about my sexual position like calling me girl, or you should be the girl, or you should be a mean girl (bottom) or saying things like "I know you" etc. this happen or stuff like this happen through out 5 or 6 years ago..I don't know if it's bad energy, or other peoples bad energy..im torn...any advice?
Thank you for sharing such a vulnerable part of your journey. It's okay to take the time to figure out what feels right for you without letting others dictate that. It might help to talk to someone you trust or a professional who can support you through these feelings. You deserve to feel safe and comfortable being your full self, however that looks.💕
Read, digest, then reflect on a book entitled “The Courage To Be Disliked.” I think it might move the needle.
Thank you for the recommendation, this sure helps!😍
Just finished listening, so funny that you make such a differentiation between gays who are in grindr and gays who participates in other platforms, they are the same people the most of the time! So what? When they logging in they become a weed while when they meeting outsides they return to their true flower?! Come on.
I did a short group LGBT therapy where I tried to face the problems you described. I never was a person who tried to fit in forcefully, im very opposing when i dont feel like i should fit in a certain place with certain "qualities" that i dont like, so this is not my problem.
I got myself frustrated when I tried over and over to "find my people" especially among men.
When it come to men, I never get satisfied with close connections, it always feel to me like they after interests, its never me they after, its the seuxal desires or romantic delusions.
I got to the conclusion that trying to prove to myself that maybe there are people who aren't selfish and do love me just because of who I am is useless. I shouldn't repeat the experiment over and over expecting different results, by doing that I'm only making myself miserable and disappointed.
People are superficial and selfish, that's why they are around, its time I take it as a fact and stop expecting something else.
The question is, what's next.
Currently my answer is that I will never get satisfied with connections knowing the truth about human nature, and I should stop seeking to be satisfied from it, its time to grow up, and stop feeling sorry about loneliness and unbelonging, and start finding satisfaction in being solo.
Thanks for sharing your journey and perspective so openly. It’s so hard when repeated experiences lead us to question whether genuine, selfless bonds are even possible. Embracing the strength in being solo sounds like a courageous next step, but we hope you’ll keep a little space open for those who might surprise you along the way.😍
I used to say, I'm queer for a Queer.
Also, I say I am Uniquely Designed. That's a polite way of saying I'm weird.
I have never truly fit in with any group. I always say, I'm too Gay for the Church and too churchy for the Gay community.
We're sorry to hear that. We hope that you can find an inclusive space that fits you.🙏
I'm so agree with Michael......1000000%, this is why I don't belong to the gay community.it's all about outside...size matter, clothing matter etc.etc...our community gets more lots from them self more and more. this is not what I want, and I feel very safe and good.
what I Hear most, based on my own experiences ist, that gay people pretend, the rest of the world has to accept for who we are.
BUT WHY WE DON'T ACCEPT OURSELF IN THE GAY COMMUNITY?? it start there......
You're definitely right! Michael's statement is agreeable. Thank you for watching!😍
Great topic, important discussion. The exaggerated uptalk is disruptive, though. Thank you for making this content available.
Thank you for watching!🙂
I feel so seen! Well done guys!!
We're glad to know that. Thank you for watching!🤩
There's does seem to be a lot of un-serious-ness in the community and over-focus on trival things.
We get what you're saying. It can definitely feel that way sometimes. Thanks for sharing your perspective!🙂
There are more flakes in the gay community than a head full of dandruff.
I've tried to get deeper with you guys, but you are way over my head. I'm unsubscribed now. I can't get past your frequent use of the word "qveer" . I'm a 70-year-old gay man & am tired of young people using that word as synonymous with gay.
My husband of 45 years together are isolated from the Gay community. When we were younger we were quite involved. We even went to the March on Washington (DC) years ago.
Goodbye & hope other's can benefit from your discussions, i cannot. I think I'm just too old.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and we truly respect your feelings. We wish you both the best, and thank you for being part of the movement that paved the way for many of us.❤🌈
I still don't feel like there is a place for me. Maybe it's because I came "Of Age" in a time when gay meant AIDS.
to me, this has been the most valuable and important episode yet. i also want to say that i appreciate the phrasing that each of you use which reveals your good hearts. ❤🪷🌈
Thank you so much for your thoughts! See you on the next episodes.🥰