Anti-Cross-Loading Carabiners - Testing + Review
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- You should know this if you own / want to own some anti-cross-loading carabiners. They are a bag of problems in my opinion! I will show you how the following models could fail:
0:00 Introduction
0:46 TRS vs LRS connectors
1:32 Black Diamond Gridlock (with Grigri and Eddy)
4:32 Grivel Clepsydra S (with Petzl Micro Traxion and DMM Buddy 100)
8:14 Metolius Gatekeeper (with Climbing Technology RollNLock)
9:25 DMM Ceros (not Rhino) (with Micro Traxion and Grigri)
11:35 DMM Belay Master 2 (with Camp Goblin)
13:42 Grivel Clepsydra L (with old Petzl Rescucender)
14:55 Notch Quickie V3 (with Kong Backup)
17:56 8mm maillon (with Kong Duck)
18:54 Petzl William (with the original Grigri)
20:29 Conclusion
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After this video, I played A LOT with all devices and all connectors to make a BIG table of all pairings... In the end: I still need to go more in depth on this topic BUT I published a big and useful table in the online courses available here: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/ The Clepsydra S is one that works incredible with all grigris, LOV2 (not LOV3), uAscend, Revo etc. The Micro Traxion best works with ovals with thick locking gate sleeve (the Petzl ) + 3 models of Anti-cross-biners ON THE SMALL SIDE: DMM Ceros, Metolius Gatekeeper and Grivel Clepsydra L and the Clepsydra S actually is a good one too!! (Not the BD Gridlock that will break quick if used on the small side or could be bad-loaded on the big side). Cheers!!
Time for Ryan to do some testing in the slack snap 👌
LOL breaking a Camp Goblin, an old Rescucender, etc etc. will not be cheap!! Lots of gear to break! The Gridlock should be broken in the bad loading position. I believe this video should come out soon...
Great video. After watching this video, I tested the DMM Ceros (brand new) with the Petzl Micro Traxion (brand new)...and I was surprised that I was able to find a way to slide the Micro Traxion hole over the DMM Ceros "horn"....the same way you demonstrated with the "Grivel Clepsydra S".
Great content, thanks for the lowdown. I use some of the rubber DMM sling keepers to hold my roll'n'lock / microtrax in the correct position on the DMM klettersteig carabiner, mitigating the crossload or gateload horrors. Thanks so much for going through the different setups!
Thank you for such an insightful and practical demonstration.
Thanks Yann!! I had a discussion with a guy working at the climbing gym yesterday about this very thing. He was telling me I was wrong and putting my carabiner on incorrectly and backwards. I use the BD Gridlock with the Gri Gri + and I put the GriGri on the small end of my BD Gridlock when I use it because of the cross loading danger and the testing done by How not 2 and Hard is Easy confirmed this, again recently. I will NOT be changing how I attach my BD Gridlock to my Gri Gri regardless of whether the “certified guide” tells me I’m wrong. lol
🤣 that is funny. I am sure he is doing his best. He will probably learn soon enough or should change job I guess. There is a story of the whole YOSAR crew failing at their safety tests in a gym… Check podcast Climbing Gold episode « safety police » by Alex Honnold.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing haha he was nice enough about it. I just stood my ground and explained to him the why and informed him about the various tests (and the BD user manual recommendation) we left it on a good note and I think I may have gotten through to him a little bit lol
That’s all we can ever do, is our best. I’ll have to check that out. I was with Washoe Co. Sheriff HASTY SAR in northern NV near Lake Tahoe on the Technical Rope, Backcountry, and Man Tracking teams for a few years before wrecking my knee during a training day, I needed surgery unfortunately. I ended up leaving because I didn’t want to be a liability to my team in the back country. “So others may live” doesn’t include my Ego haha
Well done for looking into this… especially the old grigri failure mode
Happy you liked that part 😃
Mind blowingly excellent stuff. Thank you!
This will also help with another place I sometimes see cross loading that is hard to correct once it happens: at the load end of a haul when using an inverted microtraxion instead of a plain knot and knot protector.
Please let us know what carabiner you opted for that fixed all your problems! The Grivel Clepsidra S (The L also) and the Petzl Omni Triact are actually 3 great contenders to fix this specific problem you have there... I personally use an oval but cross-loading happened to me once. Nothing broke... I could not have generated 7kN (or maybe if...) LOL Thanks! 😁😁😁
Good stuff. Things you may never know/think about until it becomes an issue.
Absolutely!
Great videos, thank you! I find the Grivel Clepsydra Small Twin Gate works really well with my Petzl Shunt for TRS on one strand. The attachment hole in the shunt is so small that it will not slide over either the gates or the hump on the clepsydra. On the other strand I use a SAR rocker with an old DMM Belay MAster. When I get to the top of the pitch I remove the rocker and attach my tuber to ab back down, using the shunt as a backup for the ab.
After a lot of experimentation and experience, the Clepsydra Small is a real winner!!!
Really great video, much food for thought, as always. Cheers
Thanks so much!
Very nice setup a lot of work!! Bravo
Merci André!
CLEPSYDRA L K10G pairs very nicely with the rollnlock, shifted my load out after this video
Epic good pairing I agree!
The rollnlock pairs really well with a metrolius element carabiner. When locked, the crab only allows the rollnlock to stay on the wide end with no possibility of cross-loading. Stay safe out there.
Thanks! I do not own the Element. Is it similar to a Petzl Attach? I will try with the attach see if the same magic happens.
Thank you. Very important safety-related information.
Thanks!!
Thanks for taking the time to make this. I've been using a GriGri on a Gridlock the wrong way for 7 years. Unreal! Will build TRS kit soon.
Unreal is the word!! Sooooo many people use the gridlock with the grigri. A good part of them wrong for sure...
Perhaps youve mentioned it in other videos, but why do you replace your belay loop with a Petzl Open Ring?
@@skillbeh it has more pros than cons for rope solo systems.
Hi,
I love the way you explain Rope Solo and try to make it as safe as possible by mentioning possible dangers. Showing someone how not to do something or how not to do something sometimes helps you gain more understanding than just showing them how to do it.
Very cool also that you have all the products you showed in your video in the video description list.
With the whole carabiner cross-loads problem you have not mentioned the Petzl Tanga, a thick rubber ring that is pulled over the carabiner and so prevents a cross-load. Have you worked with Petzl Tange already and what do you think to use it as addition cross-loading prevention?
However, your idea of using the carabiner upside down, i.e. the thinner end on the belay device and the wide bend on the belt, is awesome.
Thanks for the inspiring video about Rope Solo climbing,
lanki
Thanks man!! Yes I have used the Tenga. If you use the right connector in the first place you will not need the Tenga. But yea it can be great with certain biner/device pairs. But then: what happens if you drop the Tenga? (Risk) Also more parts means more ways of weird things happen… And some unforeseen… My 2 cents really. Some people like the Tenga or the equivalent DIY! Your mileage may vary!
Ocun Condor is my favourite
I would love to try the Ocun!! Thanks for the comment!!
Good thinking about the links for LRS. You can achieve some wild angles between you, your belay device and your last piece while leading. Best to use an oval or D-shape.
The typical "modified D" shape can be loaded wrong (more wrong than cross-loaded) with some devices going over the locking gate... Test them before you go. Ovals are more reliable (7kN cross-loaded). Petzl Omni is a killer option too (15kN cross-loaded!!!).
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I’ve actually been using an Omni with a screw gate. Love that carabiner through the tie in loops.
I think I disagree about the risk assessment. I TRS a lot and always with two devices, and I've never had a device slide onto the gate. And if it did then I still have two devices, so if that highly improbable event happened and I broke the gate of the carabiner I would just fall on my secondary.
I think the most important thing with these carabineers is that they don't rotate around the belay loop. I think that's what has caused all the weird crossloading i get with normal biners. Being able to stop it from going over the spine side seems the most important to me as it's designed to push the device to the spine side. For that reason I agree that the ideal carabiner would prevent the device from going over the gate, but it seems not that important to me for TRS.
None the less, lots of great information and great video! Keep the info coming
Interesting. Before we go further, what carabiner / device pairs do you use? Not all pairs do "weird" things! Many function very well!
Great vid
Simple solution, use a rubber bung to restrict movement over the nose!
Petzl Tenga or makeshift DIY solution can work sure! But not the first solution I recommend. Make sure you know what you are doing: more complexity = more weird failure modes and bad interactions hard to predict... Better keep it simple with proper gear in the first place!
The DMM Rhino (what you showed is actually the DMM Ceros, but that probably would be the same) works great with the RollNLock as the carabiner gate doesn't fit through the device hole.
For my microtrax when doing TRS, I have resorted to using 2 rubber keepers on a Petzl Sm"D to keep the device on the top basket of the carabiner. It's slightly fiddly as one keeper has to be removed every time I take the trax on and off the rope, but it totally prevents weird cross loading. I'm not sure what carabiner would actually prevent cross loading on a microtrax without keepers.
Thank you so much for the video! I have the current gen grigri and picking up climbing again. What carabiner would you recommend? Normal oval?
You do regular belaying with it or Lead rope solo climbing? (Note that Petzl prohibits lead rope solo with the grigri…)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing thank you for the response. Will not be used in a solo setting, just belay on top rope and lead.
@@MrEayk Any locking carabiner should be good. Also anti-cross-loading carabiners should be good (in general) because the grigri is the most common device and carabiners designers apparently all test carabiners with their creation. My favorite carabiner for the grigri is an old Mammut twislock. Similar to the Mammut Sender Twistlock Carabiner. The Mammut Classic HMS Twistlock Plus Carabiner sould be nice also. NOTE that some indoor gyms forbid twistlock carabiners because they think they are too dangerous. IMO they just try to make money. Know your gear and use it correctly is my recommendation. Small and auto-lock is my general recommendation for the grigri. 🙂
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thank you so much!
I've been learning about LRS lately, so excuse me if this is ignorant: Why would you prefer a steel link over aluminum for LRS? I would imagine that with a dynamic rope the slight give in the system wouldn't allow peak forces to reach above the 22kN breaking point of the gridlock (assuming the use of a grigri here would justify the major axis loading value for the gridlock, since it seems like crossloading with a correctly oriented grigri is a non-issue).
I quite like the Ocun Condor HMS Triple with an additional Petzl Tanga in the place where the Grivel Clepsydra has got that „nose“.
Thanks for your insights! What device / use do you use the Ocun for?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I use it for the Revo and for the Grigri in lead solo.
The Grigri even gets another Tanga between the gate and the device. It’s a bit fiddly, because I have to do it every time, but it’s safe at least 😊.
@@themoonsea9893 I don't think aluminum carabiner + device is "safe" for LRS. Do you have an other attachment point of any kind in your setups? Or do you rely 100% on the Ocun for saving your life here? If you keep your LRS mellow and don't do too much in your life, you might be fine. But otherwise a steel link and / or a backup are always preferred. I personally use both: steel attachment and backup in all my 10+ systems I use and teach for LRS. There might be a few exceptions like the use of the Petzl Ring Open that is aluminum but 23kN anyway you load it AND cannot be loaded wrong to my current knowledge. Just to add a note: what do you do if you are on a multi-pitch and you drop a tenga? Or are they attached with a string?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Good point! Steel link is safer.
I used to use a steel link with my Grigri one, but it doesn’t fit through my Grigri 3 anymore… 🙁
some good points
Beware of the DMM Belay Master 2 with the Grigri, there was a TRS incident with this setup when the plastic clip was missing, the Grigri hung up on the grooves in the back bar and snapped it. Climber is OK fortunately, Tom Randall. I'll see if I can find the article.
Yes the plastic clip is MANDATORY if you use that biner. The problem can be that it doesn’t take much to pop it off… The intricate shapes of that biner can then create some very wrong loading configurations… The GREAT article by Tom is here: publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13200305300/Fall-on-Rock-Inadequate-Protection-Inadequate-Clothing-and-Equipment-Weather
No, it was not TRS, it was a severe FF2 lead fall
@@shoqed Absolutely I overlooked that detail: severe factor 2 lead fall THANKS!
The DMM is called the Ceros. I bought two of these and found them to be useless with my rope runner pro. I found that I was better off with an oval carabiner with a captiv.
Makes sense! We buy so much stuff that end up on a shelf!!!
Why did you replace the belay loop with the ring?
Shorter (great for LRS / TRS setups), possibly stronger (Belay loop is 15kN as per UIAA, Ring Open is 23kN), more durable (see Tod Skinner accident). Never looked back since I changed. Only thing you have to watch is the torque when you screw the ring shut not to damage the screw but tight enough... Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing cool. I thought that it wore out thus the replacement.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing also noticed that the belay loop is not as beefy on the Petzl Adjama harness
Great channel, I appreciate you looking out for us. As an additional caution, I want to warn against the use of any toothed device when a fall is possible - teeth can shred your primary life support device-your rope. Petzl describes micro traxion’s use for emergency use as an ascender - not everyday belay. When configured well, the old fashioned prusik can get you where you need to go. Pulley carabiners are nice multi-functional boosters too. ruclips.net/video/4nwmRF2eT8E/видео.html
P.S. I feel very secure with my Grivel Clepsydra S and gri gri (original) combination -quick, compact, convenient, safe. captive end lives compactly on harness belay loop, and the twin gate end end keeps gri gri well oriented, with less risk of fumbling a connector.
Thanks for your input!
Woah, does your harness have a metal ring for the belay loop?
See my reply to Offbelay_1984 for details about this topic. Thanks!!