Another almost certaily Emperor's Children chapter are the Death Eagles. Because during the Heresy there was company of Emperor's Children who remained loyal, with said company being straight up called the Death Eagles. So almost certainly after the heresy they just painted their armor black and went "guys, we are totally Raven Guard successors" and called it a day.
there is also the Red Scorpions, who are known to have an even purer geneseed than the Ultramarines (and before the heresy the only legion to have that was the Emperor's Children) and are very paranoid about it, outright refusing to send geneseed tithes to Mars and having more Apothecaries than normal (something common on the pre-heresy Emperor's Children).
@unspeakablemind260 we don't have a canon confirmation they are Emperor's Children...but the Death Eagles company was canonically a thing, and the chapter symbol for the Death Eagles chapter is near identical to the Emperor's Children symbol. So unconfirmed, but most likely
"If there is any doubt about who your primarch is just say Guilliman. Ultramarine successor chapters are a dime a dozen so nobody will question it!" -Sons of Luna giving advice to the Emperor's Adolescents
On top of that it's lot more hard to determine because the Ultra Marines legion absorbed both of the lost legions after the expungment of their primarchs.
If I had a nickel for every time a rather sussy purple space marine chapter was claimed to be Fists stock, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice
I'm not up to snuff on Soul Drinkers lore. Who is their actual Primarch? (Of course I assume it's one of those "never confirmed but heavily implied" things)
Bile could've done it in a 1000 years if he had Cawls resources. Remember that all the crazy shit Bile has done, he essentially made with scraps and leftovers from battlefields and stolen equipment.
@@baneblade__ Resources, faction backing AND no need for secrecy would be better said. Then again, Honsou(the now infamous warsmith) had the daemonculaba(to say it was twisted and horrific wouldn't do it justice) safely on medrengard and it was still destroyed by efforts of 2 exiled ultramarines(ventris and pasanius), so perhaps some secrecy would still be called for.
Always got irked by the whole “if the traitors fell before they can fall again” argument. The loyalists aren’t immune to warp shenanigans or their own stupidity. Half the Dark angels were banished or outright fell to chaos due to what was basically a terrible emergency alert system combined with The Lion and Luther both pointing and yelling “he started it.”
I think the worry is valid if the Daemon Primarch of the chapter is still around, given the unnatural power Primarchs seem to hold over their gene-sons. The whole new chapter might not be corrupted, but if half turn traitor that could disrupt a lot of plans and cause a lot of damage.
People forget how devastating Gulliman's talent could get if they are put to serve Chaos goals. Huron Blackheart was of the gene line of Gulliman and his gang is amongst the most prolific traitor warbands.
@@minhducnguyen9276 tbf the Astral Claws aren't exactly confirmed if they were Ultramarines or not, some even theorize that they were from the Sons of Horus
What makes the sons of the phoenix so interesting a concept to what the traitors legions could have looked like in 40k should they have stayed loyal. I could buy the idea that over time the emperors children would go from idolizing the emperors to worshiping him as a god
AFAIK that was the 30K version. 40K version is coming soon. I wonder if people would shit themselves if they released a 40K Demon lord AND a clonegrim version :D
we already have answers, the creator of the chapter scheme has in fact stated they are IF succesors, and that the connections to EC were genuinely coincidental.
@@slip6699 i really hope they release Clonegrim too, having a loyalist primarch from a traitor legion would not only be cool, but also an interesting point for conflict on the imperium.
I love these guys, totally Fulgrims true sons to me. What I love about it is that it’s such a perfect disguise. Oh a lot of them have silver white hair? Well so did Dorn. And any aspects of them acting like Dorns sons are easily explained as the entire chapter totally believing that they are sons of Dorn and thus follow the lead of other Fist chapters. And I don’t know if it is cannon or not but I heard recently that these guys take a special interest in their mortal troops and often lead them directly. Could totally be fan talk, but if it isn’t I don’t know anything more like Fulgrim than to help those under you be BETTER!
Regardless of their true progenitor, I like how the sons of the phoenix show surprising links and similarities between the imperial fists and emperors children which are legions you don’t see directly compared very often outside of some Horus heresy stuff
The primarchs all strove for perfection in some particular form of warfare or statecraft. Fulgrims obsession was with the very concept of perfection itself. It’s likely why he got along so well with Primarchs like Ferris Manus and Konrad Curze. They might have been wildly different from him in nearly every conceivable way but they still strove for a perfection in their particular areas of expertise and he could appreciate that. So I could see him working well with Dorn as another fellow perfectionist.
why not just buy another one from fabulous bill? I'm sure he could use some stable non-traitor geneseed for his experiments. There's plenty of toilet seat goop to go around.
Just imagine if the next loyalist primarch is clonegrim and the confusion that non lore followers would have. "This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!"
I really like the idea of them being Fulgums scions, it gives the setting some nice depth and some interesting ideas about how much gene seed actually effects a space marine
Sons of the Phoenix are what got me interested in successor chapters and loyalist space marines as a whole. I currently have an army being ran with Black Templar rules since that seems the most fitting. I’m even trying to recreate the Ember Phoenix characters too. Sovennes is almost done, I just need to paint him. And that new Daredao Dreadnought from Horus Heresy you know I’m making Vespian for sure.
The Carcharadons are ravens guard specifically because Corvus Corrax exiled his Terran Astartes to the outer reaches of space since they were so brutal in their methods. The night lords and raven guard switched reputations once more of their respective Primarch’s home world flooded the legion
This, there's other reasons as well why the Carcharodons are definitely ravenguard, but yeah by what I've seen there's literally no evidence in lore for them being night lords, but a ton for them being ravenguard. A common thing night lord fanboys say about them is that they look like nightlords. Ignoring the fact that corvus and Konrad looked the same.... 🙄 corvus even called Konrad his "dark reflection" on several occasions.
Actually, while trued Corvus told his Terran born sons to fuck off, they are most likely forming the Ashen Claws Chapter (which has a feud with the Carcharadon because Tyberos stole Hunger and Slake from them), mainly because the Ashen Claws during the heresy were pirates formerly of the Raven Guard. Carcharadon are probably chimeric from World Eaters and Night Lords.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndThere's no evidence that they have either of those gene seeds in them. Explain why during the badab war when the gene seed of the carcharodons was tested it came back conclusively ravenguard? Also explain where in lore it's said or even implied that they're night lords or world eaters, cause I've read both novels and both short stories, as well as their entire wiki and I've found nothing stating this outside of reddit posts. Just because they have a feud with other ravenguard successor chapters doesn't mean they're night lords that's a silly reason to think that.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndAlso the Carcharodons chapter master holds the title of "the Shade lord" which is the same title Arkhus Fal had before fucking off like Corvus told them to. They're the only two characters in all of 40k imperium lore to hold that title.
I feel like Charcharadons make use of Night Lord and World Eater Gene seed because they are Raven guard Outcasts they wouldn’t get restocked and had to make due. Also they have a range of mutations that vary from marine to marine almost like the Gene seed is different from one another.
I like the idea of them being EC successors mainly because I feel like it really harkens back to them being some of *the* most stalwart in their loyalty before the Laer happened. If Rylanor survived he would've definitely been their chapter master.
I also like that they actually use Clone Fulgrim in the Ember Phoenix comics cause I think it is an interesting idea that is just sitting in Trazyn’s collection
The next Iron Hand book series will involve the Sons of the Phenox as allies invading a Necron Tomb complex in order to retrieve an artifact and kill all hostile. Trazyn the Infinate will be directly implicated into the book and the Emperor's Children will make an appearance alongside Fabious Bile. Take this info with what you will.
woah woah I know I'm late as fuck but where did you get this info? New Iron hands book series? Including Sons of the Phoenix? Including Necrons, Emperor's children? and Trayzn
>Be the original Iron Hand >A lot of your lore comes from novels centred on your best friend >Iron Hand book >Centres around Loyalist Emperor's Children >Classic Iron L handed to Iron Hands.
@@Frerichs1962There's literally no evidence to back this up in lore. But a ton of evidence to back up them being ravenguard. Tell me where in lore it says or even implies that they're night lords, because no one has been able to explain that to me. They just assert it blindly.
I dont think Guilliman denied Cawl because he thought they would turn, I think he denied it because he had just been revived with Mechanicus and Xeno BS and people would be very skeptical of him starting to change things rapidly. Like Ending the imperial creed with a flip of a switch would open up Eclesiarchy to shout that the filthy xenos had corrupted the son of god. and Guilliman greenlighting the manufacturing of Traitor geneseed Astartes would likely go down the same rabbithole. Some members of Mechanicus and Eclesiarchy claiming that the Avenging son is corrupted by chaos and trys to build an army for the traitors. HH loyalist traitors didnt have much chance either but atleast if they managed to prove themselves they were taken in the loyalists. That wouldnt fly in M42 when every deviation from the norm of the Imperium and Imperial Creed is considered heresy.
Doesn't matter what you think their discussion in the book is about the traitor Genesee d being tainted to Guilloman. Than Cawl points out there's is a bunch of ultra traitors around and Guilloman gets super salty.
@@livanbard well guilliman has to entertain the possibility that geneseed from Chaoscorrupted primarchs could be tainted. And cawls comparison doesnt really hold true. Induvidual ultramarine does not corrupt HIS geneseed. While the origin of Traitor geneseed is all chaos corrupted. While cawl is using stock pre-heresy its still at some level connected to the origin of it. Now we know there is none with the speculated Traitor geneseed chapters around. But obviously logistical minded guilliman doesnt want to do the usual mechanicus path of fuck around and find out. Basicly while whole imperium would think that just being of traitor seed is heresy, guilliman has to worry about how safe it actually is, loyal men might fall due the machinations of chaos.
To be fair any chapter descended from a legion which uses the "pain glove" is just some sexy mood music and lavender scented oils away from Slaanesh anyway.
I really like the idea of traitor legion successor chapters. Something had to happen with the portions of their legions that stayed loyal and survived Isstvan or their regional equivalent. The sons of the phoenix as an ultima founding chapter aren't exactly that, but i think its just neat that you can have loyalist space marines that derive from the unique qualities of the traitor legions, just as you can have chaos marines that are loyalist successors and turned traitor as individual chapters.
I would like them to be Emps Children. As you mentioned, I think it could lead to great storytelling. Imagine if they discovered they were actually Emperor's Children the whole time and also learn about there being a purified version of their genefather trapped by the Necrons. Essentially these space marines trying to do a heist on Trazyn the Infinite to free their primarch while demon Fulgrim tries to corrupt the chapter at every turn on their mission. I also think it could be entirely possible if A, Both Imperial Fist and Emperor's Children were mixed together. Or B, The Sons of The Phoenix are made up of pure Emperor's Children geneseed, but given the Imperial Fist playbook. (In a nutshell, born emps children, raised as imperial fists)
My own personal head canon for the Minotaurs is that I’ve always thought of them more as untainted world eater geneseed, in the Angron primarch novel the legion has a very spartan flavor to its way of warfare that I always enjoyed before they took the nails and devolved into what they’ve become
I am an Emperor's Children Enjoyer so ofc they gotta be EC successors. Waiting for Trazyn to free my boy so we can have the clash of the century between loyalist and traitor EC legions
I want the Sons of the Phoenix to be united with Clonegrim and wage a head on war with the Emporer's Children and Fulgrim. Fulgrim would probably rant and rave about how they're just cheap knockoffs, where Clonegrim would taunt him about how he was the beta run, the rough draft, the imperfect trial run, and how he and the Sons are what Fulgrim and the EV could have been. They failed the Emporer, they couldn't live up to the standard he set, and in their shame turned to the dark gods to make themselves feel better instead of seeking to improve themselves.
Look I love your content and I am also a night lords/curze simp. Space sharks are raven guard "Arkhas Fal was the Shade Lord of the XIXth Legion during The Great Crusade, before the Legion was reunited with their Primarch Corvus Corax. He was exiled to the outer dark as part of a nomad-predation fleet" shit lines up to nicely
Omg first time I've seen a night lords simp accept the truth! Thank you man, I love you. Maybe there's hope for the fans of the night lords after all 🥲
Since the Dark Angles recently lost most of their “everything must be kept secret” paranoid vibe thanks to the lion, I think the Sons of the Phoenix could slide into that role quite nicely.
I personally err on the side of Emperor's Children successors. Another suspect chapter in my opinion is the Silver Templars. Also knight-vibe, very melee and more specifically duel-oriented, with a high emphasis on martial perfection with weapons made by their own hands. They may not have any purple in their color scheme, and are supposedly of Roboute Guilliman's gene heritage, but they do not exhibit his uncanny knack for tactics and logistics, and Guilliman isn't particularly known for his swordsmanship. An odd point about the Silver Templars is that they form deep connections with the machine spirits of their masterfully self-crafted arms, and have an intuitive ease with understanding technology. At first glance, this trait could come from several different primarchs. Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim come to mind. We can automatically count Vulkan and Ferrus Manus out since they're both loyal and their sons have no reason to lie about their gene heritage. Perturabo quickly gains knowledge on how technological things work, but does not necessarily hold a fondness for melee combat, and is in fact one of, if not the only Primarch, to favor ranged weaponry. Perturabo's designs usually favor pragmatism over flair, and his methods are more geared towards digging in for prolonged siege warfare than carving dangerous paths to enemy commanders for quick, decisive eliminations of key targets. Where Perturabo represents a slow march of trenches and continuous bombardments and carefully calculated pressure on enemy defenses, Fulgrim is much more like a swift scalpel, moving with a disciplined gracefulness that cuts deep into enemy lines. Fulgrim and his sons were few enough in number that they couldn't afford any manner of prolonged, head-on conflict. That, and people often forget that Fulgrim is extremely competent at understanding and improving technologies. He started out on Chemos as a lowly miner, made enough improvements to the mining equipment that the world's economy could thrive again, and achieved a level of artistry with artifice that even Ferrus Manus couldn't deny it. I don't think Fulgrim's understanding of technology is the same as Perty's (literal book smarts versus intuitive vibing), but he still demonstrates a great aptitude for master craftsmanship. If the Silver Templars are descendants of Fulgrim, it stands to reason that they'd be masters of artfice, capable of crafting great works of both artistic value and of exceptional lethality.
Weren't the Emperor's Children given their name and the aquilla symbol for them sacrificing most of their marines to protect Big E during an assassination attempt?
Im not sure the imperial fists or the iron hands would appreciate new chapters with iron warriors and emperors children geneseed. Also i like the idea of loyalist chapters having tendencies similar to traitor genelines but genuinely are sons of loyalist primarchs to show geneseed wont pre determine chapter culture
I think sons of the Phoenix being EC successor, and Clonegrim coming back to do battle against the EC and Daemon Fulgrim would be righteous. Narratively I enjoy the idea of Daemon Fulgrim losing over and over, just like after Rylanor he is a troubled lesser being who can’t escape how far he’s fallen. After each loss his warp presence diminishes until he’s a whisper in the warp. Clonegrim wouldn’t have to win or survive, just so long as Fulgrim loses over and over.
No First, Clonegrim was introduced by Josh Reynolds to go out with a bang as this was his last black library story. He was put in the vault and is never coming out Second, Clonegrim is a chaos fan. He was created by Bile and surrounded by Chaos Space Marines on a Chaos ship. He hates the imperium and would never join them. Third, bringing Clonegrim back would just make other primarchs worse. Your suggestion is just a massive fuck you to real emperors children fans. Overall, clonegrim should never come back. The loyalist EC are cool because they made a valiant last stand and died on Istvaan. To bring them back is to make their sacrifice less cool
@@alexwilbrecht6962 A whole bunch of people wants Clonegrim back. Just because you don't does not mean it's a massive fuck you to real third legion fans. Your opinion does not equal everybody's opinion.
Chaotic Voices has a short seires on the Sons of the Phoenix. I enjoyed it very much and I'm glad to find out they are a real chapter. Thank you Arthur for letting me know about the webcomic. I will definitely check that out.
You forgot about the Soul Drinkers who were purple and gold too and supposed to be Imperial fist successors. They were loyal, but got tricked by daemons and kinda turned to chaos and got mutated. But then they found out and don't like chaos are now considered chaotic neutral but everyone hates them. Their current chapter master killed the last one in a duel and now has 4 spider legs which he got as "gifts" for winning the duel and was also their chief librarian at the time. And they were then put on trial by the IFs and were told my an apothecary their gene seed is not imperial fists after all.
I hope so much that clonegrim joins the imperium and confirms these characters are his and leads them directly into war with chaos to redeem themselves and destroy their chaotic original varients
*Guilliman:* "It is good to have you back, brother Fulgrim, all be it due to rather... _odd_ circumstances." *Clonegrim:* "Oh, I agree on both accounts. I must say, it was quite vexing to learn that an insane daemon prince has had the gall to try to impersonate me during these long millennia of my absence." *Lion:* "He's technically the original, though." *Clonegrim:* _"Which is why_ I shall rally my sons and set out to destroy this infernal impostor, or at least humiliate him to the point where he will never dare show his face in the materium again!" *Guiliman:* "Ah... I hate to tell you this, Fulgrim, but all your sons fell to Chaos." *Clonegrim:* "Whatever do you mean? These are my sons right here: The Sons of the Phoenix!" *Dorn:* "Brother, you are mistaken. The Sons of the Phoenix are my successor chapter, not yours." *Clonegrim:* "Why, Rogal, you are capable of making jokes now! Truly, times do change. Oh well, come along now, boys! We have a giant snake daemon to stab repeatedly in the face." *Sons of the Phoenix:* "Um, okay?" *Clonegrim:* "Ferrus, dearest brother, I shall avenge you!" *Cawl:* "Hehehe.... _Keikaku dori."_ *Guiliman:* "What was that, Cawl?" *Cawl:* "Nothing!"
i think there desendents of treader liganions as that idea is one of the most popular fan ideas cents the days of the blood ravens. gw love playing with the idea of lolouset desendest of trader primarks
When it comes to more Chimeric geneseed, I thought the Minitaurs were made from a mix of Iron warriors and the World eaters for some reason. It makes sense in my head but I'm not entirely sure how to explain it
Yes they are. Too much hints already to their true heritage. And I think it's experimental chapter. Probably Mechanicuses experiment with Magnuses genes to create a chapter and it's succeed. Full Loyalist chapter with Thousand Sons genestock without Flesh change.
Wooooo! These are my bois! As soon as I saw their armor I fell in love♡ Now I'm making them with Zumikito's recepie, tedious to say the least but love the results♡ I also found it extremely interesting that their gene-seed could be either/both Fists and EC. The potential powder-keg waiting to explode is cool as hell to think about! But I agree that it is more interesting as a mystery, a lot of people are bound to be dissapointed if it is revealed one way or the other.
If I remember correctly Guiliman suspects Cawl is using traitor gene seed but for the most part he has too many plates spinning that he needs to keep going for him to care about it. So as long as the suspected legions keep doing their job he isn't going to say anything and he's just going to let it be.
Isn't the whole idea of the Ultima Founding is that the new Primaris chapters are *all* from chimeric gene-seed stock? So it's more like all the Ultima chapters have a *little* of all 20 legions in them. Naturally, some will favour some parts of the gene-seed more, so it makes sense that some of them are more like traitor successors.
Your point about not knowing, is what I think is missing from a lot of modern GW. The lore was deliberately written with gaps and missing info because the authors understood that keeping things open allowed for conversation and ideas to flourish. Having it all over explained drains the setting of its mysticism. As much as I enjoy the HH games, I feel like that part of 40k's history shouldn't be explored too much.
Hmm, "the phoenecian" is actually from the phoenecian people of the Levant back in the BC age. They were traders who made the very rare purple dye from crustaceans!
Low key, my favorite character, not at least because there isn't much information yet. I mean, imagine what would happen if The Infinite just gave them clone Fulgrim! Yeah, it MAY not happen, but I'm headcaning it if it doesn't.
would be a funny/interesting story if Clonegrim managed to escape Trazyn's museum and blend in with the sons of the phoenix and is more than enthusiastic with the constant crusades after finding out he's not just a clone but also the original Fulgrim and his legion done fuct up.
My favorite thing I’ve seen is a comic on Twitter involving these guys and them meeting Clonegrim. “My sons! Your father has returned!” “… Rogal Dorn!?”
The Space Sharks being "Raven Guard" because of the whole "Oh they were exiled by Corax and came back blah blah blah" makes no sense to me. They quite literally have the MO of The Night Lords and not Raven Guard lmao. They're literally just Night Lords if they fought normally in open battles instead of doing the whole terror tactics and hit and run shit.
I have a few of these guys painted because of their color scheme and since I think they are Emperors Children. Helps since I have some 30k stuff painted for the III legion.
I remember when these guys dropped in white dwarf and the community just took it and ran, there was even a bug group that polled chapter master wargear and such
Cawl used Dorn and Guilliman genes to stabilize less stable geneseed stocks. Cawl used Dorns seed to stabilize some Word Bearers or Emperors Children geneseed.
For the Primaris chapters that people suspect have traitor gene seed, I suspect that most of them are probably some chimeric mixture of traitor and loyal, which means Cawl was not lying when he said the Sons of the Phoenix are the sons of Dorn, but ‘forgot’ to mention that they are also Fulgrims sons as well. Is this theory true? Probably not but it would also make sense as well to hide the fact that he did use traitor gene seed, said traitor gene seed was probably the majority whilst the loyal gene seed was only a small amount
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Ultima founding:
robute sais to belisarius: no traitor gene seed.
Belisarius: yes my lord.
Turns around.
'just a little bit'.
Just posting this here so it's seen, but we need an Astral Claws chapter vid
as a treat
Space Wolves Primaris Successor Chapter; Moon Dogs.
It's not traitor genestock if it was collected before the legion turned traitor.
If I recall in Dark Imperium, he flat out admitted there are 'trial' runs.
Another almost certaily Emperor's Children chapter are the Death Eagles. Because during the Heresy there was company of Emperor's Children who remained loyal, with said company being straight up called the Death Eagles. So almost certainly after the heresy they just painted their armor black and went "guys, we are totally Raven Guard successors" and called it a day.
And their original color scheme during rogue trader was cuadrilated white / magenta and yellow (probably gold) ... Rather suspicius 😂
@Coeurdeloup and the logo for the Death Eagles even now is nearly identical to the EC one
there is also the Red Scorpions, who are known to have an even purer geneseed than the Ultramarines (and before the heresy the only legion to have that was the Emperor's Children) and are very paranoid about it, outright refusing to send geneseed tithes to Mars and having more Apothecaries than normal (something common on the pre-heresy Emperor's Children).
canon?
@unspeakablemind260 we don't have a canon confirmation they are Emperor's Children...but the Death Eagles company was canonically a thing, and the chapter symbol for the Death Eagles chapter is near identical to the Emperor's Children symbol. So unconfirmed, but most likely
"If there is any doubt about who your primarch is just say Guilliman. Ultramarine successor chapters are a dime a dozen so nobody will question it!"
-Sons of Luna giving advice to the Emperor's Adolescents
On top of that it's lot more hard to determine because the Ultra Marines legion absorbed both of the lost legions after the expungment of their primarchs.
If I had a nickel for every time a rather sussy purple space marine chapter was claimed to be Fists stock, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice
Get this comment up!!!
Which one the other one? The exorcist?
Soul drinkers
@@notusneo soul drinkers. They’re purple
I'm not up to snuff on Soul Drinkers lore. Who is their actual Primarch? (Of course I assume it's one of those "never confirmed but heavily implied" things)
Bile: *Spends all day trying to cure his legion’s space cancer*
Cawl: “You are like little bab. Check this out!”
Bile the charlatan indeed :P
*procced to take 10000 year to fix it*
@@internetuser320 And fail to do so
Bile could've done it in a 1000 years if he had Cawls resources. Remember that all the crazy shit Bile has done, he essentially made with scraps and leftovers from battlefields and stolen equipment.
@@baneblade__ Resources, faction backing AND no need for secrecy would be better said. Then again, Honsou(the now infamous warsmith) had the daemonculaba(to say it was twisted and horrific wouldn't do it justice) safely on medrengard and it was still destroyed by efforts of 2 exiled ultramarines(ventris and pasanius), so perhaps some secrecy would still be called for.
Always got irked by the whole “if the traitors fell before they can fall again” argument. The loyalists aren’t immune to warp shenanigans or their own stupidity.
Half the Dark angels were banished or outright fell to chaos due to what was basically a terrible emergency alert system combined with The Lion and Luther both pointing and yelling “he started it.”
The Dark Angels have always been loyal. If you disagree, you should report to Asmodeus.
I think the worry is valid if the Daemon Primarch of the chapter is still around, given the unnatural power Primarchs seem to hold over their gene-sons. The whole new chapter might not be corrupted, but if half turn traitor that could disrupt a lot of plans and cause a lot of damage.
People forget how devastating Gulliman's talent could get if they are put to serve Chaos goals. Huron Blackheart was of the gene line of Gulliman and his gang is amongst the most prolific traitor warbands.
adharon's reavers are a chaos marine warband; and they were from the Sons of Guilliman chapter
so i don't know, man
@@minhducnguyen9276 tbf the Astral Claws aren't exactly confirmed if they were Ultramarines or not, some even theorize that they were from the Sons of Horus
The "Definelty not used Emperors Children geneseed" Chapter.
We also have the confirmed one in the Silver Skulls. Loyalist Iron Warriors.
Damn now I am starting to think that theres plenty amount of chapters that are created from 4th Legions genestock
What makes the sons of the phoenix so interesting a concept to what the traitors legions could have looked like in 40k should they have stayed loyal.
I could buy the idea that over time the emperors children would go from idolizing the emperors to worshiping him as a god
With the new Fulgrim model revealed last night, I expect him to return to the lore soon. We might get answers sooner than later.
AFAIK that was the 30K version. 40K version is coming soon. I wonder if people would shit themselves if they released a 40K Demon lord AND a clonegrim version :D
@@slip6699 Yeah, I figured that out shortly after I left this comment. Sorry.
we already have answers, the creator of the chapter scheme has in fact stated they are IF succesors, and that the connections to EC were genuinely coincidental.
When it comes to GW its usually later rather than more later
@@slip6699 i really hope they release Clonegrim too, having a loyalist primarch from a traitor legion would not only be cool, but also an interesting point for conflict on the imperium.
I love these guys, totally Fulgrims true sons to me.
What I love about it is that it’s such a perfect disguise. Oh a lot of them have silver white hair? Well so did Dorn. And any aspects of them acting like Dorns sons are easily explained as the entire chapter totally believing that they are sons of Dorn and thus follow the lead of other Fist chapters.
And I don’t know if it is cannon or not but I heard recently that these guys take a special interest in their mortal troops and often lead them directly. Could totally be fan talk, but if it isn’t I don’t know anything more like Fulgrim than to help those under you be BETTER!
The Pre-Heresy EC were also well-known for their abilities in leading Guard regiments separate from the legion because they came from Europan nobility
Regardless of their true progenitor, I like how the sons of the phoenix show surprising links and similarities between the imperial fists and emperors children which are legions you don’t see directly compared very often outside of some Horus heresy stuff
The primarchs all strove for perfection in some particular form of warfare or statecraft. Fulgrims obsession was with the very concept of perfection itself. It’s likely why he got along so well with Primarchs like Ferris Manus and Konrad Curze. They might have been wildly different from him in nearly every conceivable way but they still strove for a perfection in their particular areas of expertise and he could appreciate that. So I could see him working well with Dorn as another fellow perfectionist.
Bobby G: "No traitor gene seed!"
Cawl: "Wot? Sunspots...signal breaking up..."
Looking forward to seeing the reaction of these guys when Clonegrim walks into the room… once Trazyn finally gets around to releasing him.
why not just buy another one from fabulous bill? I'm sure he could use some stable non-traitor geneseed for his experiments. There's plenty of toilet seat goop to go around.
They would have to trade something better like a shiny lv 100 necron tea set
or an ork sniper
Wonder would Trazyn just let him go for the shits and giggles of it? Might result in something happening he could pokeball....?
Just imagine if the next loyalist primarch is clonegrim and the confusion that non lore followers would have.
"This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!"
I really like the idea of them being Fulgums scions, it gives the setting some nice depth and some interesting ideas about how much gene seed actually effects a space marine
No problem g-man, I won't use any traitor gene seed! As I've already used it!
Sons of the Phoenix are what got me interested in successor chapters and loyalist space marines as a whole. I currently have an army being ran with Black Templar rules since that seems the most fitting. I’m even trying to recreate the Ember Phoenix characters too. Sovennes is almost done, I just need to paint him. And that new Daredao Dreadnought from Horus Heresy you know I’m making Vespian for sure.
Vespasian MVP
The Carcharadons are ravens guard specifically because Corvus Corrax exiled his Terran Astartes to the outer reaches of space since they were so brutal in their methods. The night lords and raven guard switched reputations once more of their respective Primarch’s home world flooded the legion
This, there's other reasons as well why the Carcharodons are definitely ravenguard, but yeah by what I've seen there's literally no evidence in lore for them being night lords, but a ton for them being ravenguard.
A common thing night lord fanboys say about them is that they look like nightlords. Ignoring the fact that corvus and Konrad looked the same.... 🙄 corvus even called Konrad his "dark reflection" on several occasions.
Actually, while trued Corvus told his Terran born sons to fuck off, they are most likely forming the Ashen Claws Chapter (which has a feud with the Carcharadon because Tyberos stole Hunger and Slake from them), mainly because the Ashen Claws during the heresy were pirates formerly of the Raven Guard. Carcharadon are probably chimeric from World Eaters and Night Lords.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndThere's no evidence that they have either of those gene seeds in them.
Explain why during the badab war when the gene seed of the carcharodons was tested it came back conclusively ravenguard? Also explain where in lore it's said or even implied that they're night lords or world eaters, cause I've read both novels and both short stories, as well as their entire wiki and I've found nothing stating this outside of reddit posts.
Just because they have a feud with other ravenguard successor chapters doesn't mean they're night lords that's a silly reason to think that.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndAlso the Carcharodons chapter master holds the title of "the Shade lord" which is the same title Arkhus Fal had before fucking off like Corvus told them to.
They're the only two characters in all of 40k imperium lore to hold that title.
I feel like Charcharadons make use of Night Lord and World Eater Gene seed because they are Raven guard Outcasts they wouldn’t get restocked and had to make due.
Also they have a range of mutations that vary from marine to marine almost like the Gene seed is different from one another.
I like the idea of them being EC successors mainly because I feel like it really harkens back to them being some of *the* most stalwart in their loyalty before the Laer happened.
If Rylanor survived he would've definitely been their chapter master.
A dreadnought chapter master would be the greatest
I also like that they actually use Clone Fulgrim in the Ember Phoenix comics cause I think it is an interesting idea that is just sitting in Trazyn’s collection
He's a huge lore bomb just waiting to be released
It’s interesting to note that Belisarius never says that he wouldn’t ever use traitor gene seed. Just that he wouldn’t going FORWARD.
These guys are totally the Emperor's Grandchildren.
The next Iron Hand book series will involve the Sons of the Phenox as allies invading a Necron Tomb complex in order to retrieve an artifact and kill all hostile. Trazyn the Infinate will be directly implicated into the book and the Emperor's Children will make an appearance alongside Fabious Bile. Take this info with what you will.
Clone Fulgrim might be in the book.
woah woah I know I'm late as fuck but where did you get this info? New Iron hands book series? Including Sons of the Phoenix? Including Necrons, Emperor's children? and Trayzn
>Be the original Iron Hand
>A lot of your lore comes from novels centred on your best friend
>Iron Hand book
>Centres around Loyalist Emperor's Children
>Classic Iron L handed to Iron Hands.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SPACE SHARK MENTION
Yeah but he said they flay people 🙄 why do half of the RUclipsrs who mention carcharodons get them wrong. I blame adeptus ridiculous.
I don't care what people say, they are loyal Night Lord successor chapter.
@@Frerichs1962There's literally no evidence to back this up in lore.
But a ton of evidence to back up them being ravenguard.
Tell me where in lore it says or even implies that they're night lords, because no one has been able to explain that to me. They just assert it blindly.
@@Redx6504They real scawy 😱
@@DragonsHoardOfPlastic sharks aren't scary, sharks are friends. Just rotate them if they give you trouble.
I believe it was confirmed that the Minotaurs are an Iron Warrior’s successor, which is why they only take their orders from the high lords.
I dont think Guilliman denied Cawl because he thought they would turn, I think he denied it because he had just been revived with Mechanicus and Xeno BS and people would be very skeptical of him starting to change things rapidly. Like Ending the imperial creed with a flip of a switch would open up Eclesiarchy to shout that the filthy xenos had corrupted the son of god. and Guilliman greenlighting the manufacturing of Traitor geneseed Astartes would likely go down the same rabbithole. Some members of Mechanicus and Eclesiarchy claiming that the Avenging son is corrupted by chaos and trys to build an army for the traitors. HH loyalist traitors didnt have much chance either but atleast if they managed to prove themselves they were taken in the loyalists. That wouldnt fly in M42 when every deviation from the norm of the Imperium and Imperial Creed is considered heresy.
Doesn't matter what you think their discussion in the book is about the traitor Genesee d being tainted to Guilloman. Than Cawl points out there's is a bunch of ultra traitors around and Guilloman gets super salty.
@@livanbard well guilliman has to entertain the possibility that geneseed from Chaoscorrupted primarchs could be tainted. And cawls comparison doesnt really hold true. Induvidual ultramarine does not corrupt HIS geneseed. While the origin of Traitor geneseed is all chaos corrupted. While cawl is using stock pre-heresy its still at some level connected to the origin of it. Now we know there is none with the speculated Traitor geneseed chapters around. But obviously logistical minded guilliman doesnt want to do the usual mechanicus path of fuck around and find out. Basicly while whole imperium would think that just being of traitor seed is heresy, guilliman has to worry about how safe it actually is, loyal men might fall due the machinations of chaos.
I love the old intro being back!!
It is unique to you, and makes your channel feel more genuine.
To be fair any chapter descended from a legion which uses the "pain glove" is just some sexy mood music and lavender scented oils away from Slaanesh anyway.
I really like the idea of traitor legion successor chapters. Something had to happen with the portions of their legions that stayed loyal and survived Isstvan or their regional equivalent. The sons of the phoenix as an ultima founding chapter aren't exactly that, but i think its just neat that you can have loyalist space marines that derive from the unique qualities of the traitor legions, just as you can have chaos marines that are loyalist successors and turned traitor as individual chapters.
I would like them to be Emps Children. As you mentioned, I think it could lead to great storytelling. Imagine if they discovered they were actually Emperor's Children the whole time and also learn about there being a purified version of their genefather trapped by the Necrons. Essentially these space marines trying to do a heist on Trazyn the Infinite to free their primarch while demon Fulgrim tries to corrupt the chapter at every turn on their mission.
I also think it could be entirely possible if A, Both Imperial Fist and Emperor's Children were mixed together. Or B, The Sons of The Phoenix are made up of pure Emperor's Children geneseed, but given the Imperial Fist playbook. (In a nutshell, born emps children, raised as imperial fists)
My own personal head canon for the Minotaurs is that I’ve always thought of them more as untainted world eater geneseed, in the Angron primarch novel the legion has a very spartan flavor to its way of warfare that I always enjoyed before they took the nails and devolved into what they’ve become
I like the old intro
You literally made a poll on which intro we liked. Don’t act surprised.
Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children are the coolest of all the legions so some loyalist successors would be awesome
I love these vids! I don't see many obscure chapters spoken about!
Redeemed Clonegrim vs Daemon Fulgrim would be awesome
I am an Emperor's Children Enjoyer so ofc they gotta be EC successors. Waiting for Trazyn to free my boy so we can have the clash of the century between loyalist and traitor EC legions
I want the Sons of the Phoenix to be united with Clonegrim and wage a head on war with the Emporer's Children and Fulgrim. Fulgrim would probably rant and rave about how they're just cheap knockoffs, where Clonegrim would taunt him about how he was the beta run, the rough draft, the imperfect trial run, and how he and the Sons are what Fulgrim and the EV could have been. They failed the Emporer, they couldn't live up to the standard he set, and in their shame turned to the dark gods to make themselves feel better instead of seeking to improve themselves.
When you talk about the Space Sharks, will you include a picture of Garchomp?
Look I love your content and I am also a night lords/curze simp. Space sharks are raven guard "Arkhas Fal was the Shade Lord of the XIXth Legion during The Great Crusade, before the Legion was reunited with their Primarch Corvus Corax. He was exiled to the outer dark as part of a nomad-predation fleet" shit lines up to nicely
Agreed sir, but in addition don’t they trade for the aforementioned suspect gene stock?
Omg first time I've seen a night lords simp accept the truth!
Thank you man, I love you. Maybe there's hope for the fans of the night lords after all 🥲
Since the Dark Angles recently lost most of their “everything must be kept secret” paranoid vibe thanks to the lion, I think the Sons of the Phoenix could slide into that role quite nicely.
I personally err on the side of Emperor's Children successors.
Another suspect chapter in my opinion is the Silver Templars. Also knight-vibe, very melee and more specifically duel-oriented, with a high emphasis on martial perfection with weapons made by their own hands. They may not have any purple in their color scheme, and are supposedly of Roboute Guilliman's gene heritage, but they do not exhibit his uncanny knack for tactics and logistics, and Guilliman isn't particularly known for his swordsmanship.
An odd point about the Silver Templars is that they form deep connections with the machine spirits of their masterfully self-crafted arms, and have an intuitive ease with understanding technology. At first glance, this trait could come from several different primarchs. Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim come to mind.
We can automatically count Vulkan and Ferrus Manus out since they're both loyal and their sons have no reason to lie about their gene heritage.
Perturabo quickly gains knowledge on how technological things work, but does not necessarily hold a fondness for melee combat, and is in fact one of, if not the only Primarch, to favor ranged weaponry. Perturabo's designs usually favor pragmatism over flair, and his methods are more geared towards digging in for prolonged siege warfare than carving dangerous paths to enemy commanders for quick, decisive eliminations of key targets.
Where Perturabo represents a slow march of trenches and continuous bombardments and carefully calculated pressure on enemy defenses, Fulgrim is much more like a swift scalpel, moving with a disciplined gracefulness that cuts deep into enemy lines. Fulgrim and his sons were few enough in number that they couldn't afford any manner of prolonged, head-on conflict.
That, and people often forget that Fulgrim is extremely competent at understanding and improving technologies. He started out on Chemos as a lowly miner, made enough improvements to the mining equipment that the world's economy could thrive again, and achieved a level of artistry with artifice that even Ferrus Manus couldn't deny it. I don't think Fulgrim's understanding of technology is the same as Perty's (literal book smarts versus intuitive vibing), but he still demonstrates a great aptitude for master craftsmanship. If the Silver Templars are descendants of Fulgrim, it stands to reason that they'd be masters of artfice, capable of crafting great works of both artistic value and of exceptional lethality.
Thank you for bringing back the awkward intro😊. Sending love and kisses to oatmeal😘
Weren't the Emperor's Children given their name and the aquilla symbol for them sacrificing most of their marines to protect Big E during an assassination attempt?
Yes
Im not sure the imperial fists or the iron hands would appreciate new chapters with iron warriors and emperors children geneseed. Also i like the idea of loyalist chapters having tendencies similar to traitor genelines but genuinely are sons of loyalist primarchs to show geneseed wont pre determine chapter culture
Dude, we love you, no matter which intro you use. As long as it's the old one, of course! But we love you anyway.
I like the new one, but I like the old one more.
I just made a joke about these recently and now there is a video on them lol. Though I thought their cover was they were blood angels successors.
Thanks for bringing back the old intro. You saved me having to make a disappointed comment.
They could also be of chimeric geneseed from both Emperors Children and Imperial Fists.
1:00. Technically it’s possible. Corax sent the Terran born marines away because they were acting too much like the night lords.
The background music is so beautifully unsettling
I'm here to support the Old Intro and as always the background music.
I think sons of the Phoenix being EC successor, and Clonegrim coming back to do battle against the EC and Daemon Fulgrim would be righteous.
Narratively I enjoy the idea of Daemon Fulgrim losing over and over, just like after Rylanor he is a troubled lesser being who can’t escape how far he’s fallen. After each loss his warp presence diminishes until he’s a whisper in the warp.
Clonegrim wouldn’t have to win or survive, just so long as Fulgrim loses over and over.
apothecary
No
First, Clonegrim was introduced by Josh Reynolds to go out with a bang as this was his last black library story. He was put in the vault and is never coming out
Second, Clonegrim is a chaos fan. He was created by Bile and surrounded by Chaos Space Marines on a Chaos ship. He hates the imperium and would never join them.
Third, bringing Clonegrim back would just make other primarchs worse. Your suggestion is just a massive fuck you to real emperors children fans.
Overall, clonegrim should never come back. The loyalist EC are cool because they made a valiant last stand and died on Istvaan. To bring them back is to make their sacrifice less cool
@@alexwilbrecht6962 well I’m going to say yes, YES! You cannot stop me from taking a different position on the topic! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
@@alexwilbrecht6962 A whole bunch of people wants Clonegrim back. Just because you don't does not mean it's a massive fuck you to real third legion fans. Your opinion does not equal everybody's opinion.
@@mrman9977 i have laid out reasons why bringing the character back would be harmful to the setting. Read those and come back
I heard once he tried to get gene seed from the [REDACTED] legions casue apparently there still in stock?
Chaotic Voices has a short seires on the Sons of the Phoenix. I enjoyed it very much and I'm glad to find out they are a real chapter.
Thank you Arthur for letting me know about the webcomic. I will definitely check that out.
You forgot about the Soul Drinkers who were purple and gold too and supposed to be Imperial fist successors.
They were loyal, but got tricked by daemons and kinda turned to chaos and got mutated.
But then they found out and don't like chaos are now considered chaotic neutral but everyone hates them.
Their current chapter master killed the last one in a duel and now has 4 spider legs which he got as "gifts" for winning the duel and was also their chief librarian at the time.
And they were then put on trial by the IFs and were told my an apothecary their gene seed is not imperial fists after all.
I hope so much that clonegrim joins the imperium and confirms these characters are his and leads them directly into war with chaos to redeem themselves and destroy their chaotic original varients
*Guilliman:* "It is good to have you back, brother Fulgrim, all be it due to rather... _odd_ circumstances."
*Clonegrim:* "Oh, I agree on both accounts. I must say, it was quite vexing to learn that an insane daemon prince has had the gall to try to impersonate me during these long millennia of my absence."
*Lion:* "He's technically the original, though."
*Clonegrim:* _"Which is why_ I shall rally my sons and set out to destroy this infernal impostor, or at least humiliate him to the point where he will never dare show his face in the materium again!"
*Guiliman:* "Ah... I hate to tell you this, Fulgrim, but all your sons fell to Chaos."
*Clonegrim:* "Whatever do you mean? These are my sons right here: The Sons of the Phoenix!"
*Dorn:* "Brother, you are mistaken. The Sons of the Phoenix are my successor chapter, not yours."
*Clonegrim:* "Why, Rogal, you are capable of making jokes now! Truly, times do change. Oh well, come along now, boys! We have a giant snake daemon to stab repeatedly in the face."
*Sons of the Phoenix:* "Um, okay?"
*Clonegrim:* "Ferrus, dearest brother, I shall avenge you!"
*Cawl:* "Hehehe.... _Keikaku dori."_
*Guiliman:* "What was that, Cawl?"
*Cawl:* "Nothing!"
I am a fan of the sons of the phoenix.
I AM ALSO A FAN OF THE OLD INTRO.
i think there desendents of treader liganions as that idea is one of the most popular fan ideas cents the days of the blood ravens. gw love playing with the idea of lolouset desendest of trader primarks
When it comes to more Chimeric geneseed, I thought the Minitaurs were made from a mix of Iron warriors and the World eaters for some reason. It makes sense in my head but I'm not entirely sure how to explain it
There's also the Blood Ravens who are probably Thousanf Son Descendants
Yes they are. Too much hints already to their true heritage. And I think it's experimental chapter. Probably Mechanicuses experiment with Magnuses genes to create a chapter and it's succeed. Full Loyalist chapter with Thousand Sons genestock without Flesh change.
I theorize that the Wolfspear chapter are a chimeric mix of Russ/Horus
Wooooo! These are my bois!
As soon as I saw their armor I fell in love♡ Now I'm making them with Zumikito's recepie, tedious to say the least but love the results♡
I also found it extremely interesting that their gene-seed could be either/both Fists and EC. The potential powder-keg waiting to explode is cool as hell to think about!
But I agree that it is more interesting as a mystery, a lot of people are bound to be dissapointed if it is revealed one way or the other.
If I remember correctly Guiliman suspects Cawl is using traitor gene seed but for the most part he has too many plates spinning that he needs to keep going for him to care about it.
So as long as the suspected legions keep doing their job he isn't going to say anything and he's just going to let it be.
Isn't the whole idea of the Ultima Founding is that the new Primaris chapters are *all* from chimeric gene-seed stock? So it's more like all the Ultima chapters have a *little* of all 20 legions in them. Naturally, some will favour some parts of the gene-seed more, so it makes sense that some of them are more like traitor successors.
Ahhh good old ice-cream truck Arthur is back! 😉
Your point about not knowing, is what I think is missing from a lot of modern GW.
The lore was deliberately written with gaps and missing info because the authors understood that keeping things open allowed for conversation and ideas to flourish.
Having it all over explained drains the setting of its mysticism.
As much as I enjoy the HH games, I feel like that part of 40k's history shouldn't be explored too much.
It is important to note that some chapter have in universe rumors of being successors of traitor legions
May I ask for the name of the background music? I like it.
The drip on them is insane, and I will definitely be running it in my Warhammer Fallout run
Blood Ravens-Thousand sons
Minotaurs- Iron Warriors
Sons of the pheonix- Emperors Children
Covenant of Fire- Word bearers
There are a few others too
Death Eagles- Emperor's Children
Scythes of the Emperor and Silver Skulls - Iron Warriors
Every time I come back to this channel I want to play Bioshock again and I don't know why.
Hmm, "the phoenecian" is actually from the phoenecian people of the Levant back in the BC age.
They were traders who made the very rare purple dye from crustaceans!
Whats your point nerd?
I think the minotaurs are made from Iron warriors mixed with the reformed gene-seed of thunder warriors.
It's not that we can't have nice things. it's just that we dont want new things.
7:52 mans on another 13 week hiatus
Low key, my favorite character, not at least because there isn't much information yet.
I mean, imagine what would happen if The Infinite just gave them clone Fulgrim! Yeah, it MAY not happen, but I'm headcaning it if it doesn't.
I like the og intros because it’s kinda cute in my opinion
Cawl: "You can be loyal again, just don't make it obvious."
World Eaters successor: "Bet, call us the Planet Eaters."
You're videos are actually pretty good. Before I usually clicked off them immediately after I heard the intro, thanks for getting rid of it.
would be a funny/interesting story if Clonegrim managed to escape Trazyn's museum and blend in with the sons of the phoenix and is more than enthusiastic with the constant crusades after finding out he's not just a clone but also the original Fulgrim and his legion done fuct up.
"The Ultima founding can have a little traitor geneseed, as a treat"
Belasarius Cawl, probably
I like the 'Hi' intro. It's happier
My favorite thing I’ve seen is a comic on Twitter involving these guys and them meeting Clonegrim.
“My sons! Your father has returned!”
“… Rogal Dorn!?”
Trazyn: Oh wow! A shiny Emperor's Children! (throws pokeball)
It will be interesting to see how long Fulgrim's laughter lasts once he sees these guys.
The Space Sharks being "Raven Guard" because of the whole "Oh they were exiled by Corax and came back blah blah blah" makes no sense to me. They quite literally have the MO of The Night Lords and not Raven Guard lmao. They're literally just Night Lords if they fought normally in open battles instead of doing the whole terror tactics and hit and run shit.
I like to think there are both He used the Imperial first gene to stabilize the emperor's children so it is a combination of both :)
I have a few of these guys painted because of their color scheme and since I think they are Emperors Children. Helps since I have some 30k stuff painted for the III legion.
Did not know about these guys. I thought it was a fan made chapter. Didn't even know their names
You should do a video on Tyberos or mix him into the Cahracaradon video he is one of my favorite space marine character also Retributor chapter when?
I remember when these guys dropped in white dwarf and the community just took it and ran, there was even a bug group that polled chapter master wargear and such
I love the old intro. It is special. ❤
Maybe the chapter is a chimera of both Imperial Fist and Emperor's Children geneseed
What if Cawl wanted to make hybrid Black Templar Emperor's Children? Crusading fabolously.
Cawl used Dorn and Guilliman genes to stabilize less stable geneseed stocks.
Cawl used Dorns seed to stabilize some Word Bearers or Emperors Children geneseed.
Incoming "Emperor's Loyal Green Hydras" chapter
For the Primaris chapters that people suspect have traitor gene seed, I suspect that most of them are probably some chimeric mixture of traitor and loyal, which means Cawl was not lying when he said the Sons of the Phoenix are the sons of Dorn, but ‘forgot’ to mention that they are also Fulgrims sons as well.
Is this theory true? Probably not but it would also make sense as well to hide the fact that he did use traitor gene seed, said traitor gene seed was probably the majority whilst the loyal gene seed was only a small amount
Came for the "uuuh",
Stayed for the "hi!"
Regardless of the intro, the content is always fun and interesting. Love your work