If I had a nickel for every time a rather sussy purple space marine chapter was claimed to be Fists stock, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice
I'm not up to snuff on Soul Drinkers lore. Who is their actual Primarch? (Of course I assume it's one of those "never confirmed but heavily implied" things)
Another almost certaily Emperor's Children chapter are the Death Eagles. Because during the Heresy there was company of Emperor's Children who remained loyal, with said company being straight up called the Death Eagles. So almost certainly after the heresy they just painted their armor black and went "guys, we are totally Raven Guard successors" and called it a day.
there is also the Red Scorpions, who are known to have an even purer geneseed than the Ultramarines (and before the heresy the only legion to have that was the Emperor's Children) and are very paranoid about it, outright refusing to send geneseed tithes to Mars and having more Apothecaries than normal (something common on the pre-heresy Emperor's Children).
@unspeakablemind260 we don't have a canon confirmation they are Emperor's Children...but the Death Eagles company was canonically a thing, and the chapter symbol for the Death Eagles chapter is near identical to the Emperor's Children symbol. So unconfirmed, but most likely
Bile could've done it in a 1000 years if he had Cawls resources. Remember that all the crazy shit Bile has done, he essentially made with scraps and leftovers from battlefields and stolen equipment.
@@baneblade__ Resources, faction backing AND no need for secrecy would be better said. Then again, Honsou(the now infamous warsmith) had the daemonculaba(to say it was twisted and horrific wouldn't do it justice) safely on medrengard and it was still destroyed by efforts of 2 exiled ultramarines(ventris and pasanius), so perhaps some secrecy would still be called for.
"If there is any doubt about who your primarch is just say Guilliman. Ultramarine successor chapters are a dime a dozen so nobody will question it!" -Sons of Luna giving advice to the Emperor's Adolescents
On top of that it's lot more hard to determine because the Ultra Marines legion absorbed both of the lost legions after the expungment of their primarchs.
Always got irked by the whole “if the traitors fell before they can fall again” argument. The loyalists aren’t immune to warp shenanigans or their own stupidity. Half the Dark angels were banished or outright fell to chaos due to what was basically a terrible emergency alert system combined with The Lion and Luther both pointing and yelling “he started it.”
I think the worry is valid if the Daemon Primarch of the chapter is still around, given the unnatural power Primarchs seem to hold over their gene-sons. The whole new chapter might not be corrupted, but if half turn traitor that could disrupt a lot of plans and cause a lot of damage.
People forget how devastating Gulliman's talent could get if they are put to serve Chaos goals. Huron Blackheart was of the gene line of Gulliman and his gang is amongst the most prolific traitor warbands.
@@minhducnguyen9276 tbf the Astral Claws aren't exactly confirmed if they were Ultramarines or not, some even theorize that they were from the Sons of Horus
I love these guys, totally Fulgrims true sons to me. What I love about it is that it’s such a perfect disguise. Oh a lot of them have silver white hair? Well so did Dorn. And any aspects of them acting like Dorns sons are easily explained as the entire chapter totally believing that they are sons of Dorn and thus follow the lead of other Fist chapters. And I don’t know if it is cannon or not but I heard recently that these guys take a special interest in their mortal troops and often lead them directly. Could totally be fan talk, but if it isn’t I don’t know anything more like Fulgrim than to help those under you be BETTER!
AFAIK that was the 30K version. 40K version is coming soon. I wonder if people would shit themselves if they released a 40K Demon lord AND a clonegrim version :D
we already have answers, the creator of the chapter scheme has in fact stated they are IF succesors, and that the connections to EC were genuinely coincidental.
@@slip6699 i really hope they release Clonegrim too, having a loyalist primarch from a traitor legion would not only be cool, but also an interesting point for conflict on the imperium.
why not just buy another one from fabulous bill? I'm sure he could use some stable non-traitor geneseed for his experiments. There's plenty of toilet seat goop to go around.
Just imagine if the next loyalist primarch is clonegrim and the confusion that non lore followers would have. "This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!"
Regardless of their true progenitor, I like how the sons of the phoenix show surprising links and similarities between the imperial fists and emperors children which are legions you don’t see directly compared very often outside of some Horus heresy stuff
The primarchs all strove for perfection in some particular form of warfare or statecraft. Fulgrims obsession was with the very concept of perfection itself. It’s likely why he got along so well with Primarchs like Ferris Manus and Konrad Curze. They might have been wildly different from him in nearly every conceivable way but they still strove for a perfection in their particular areas of expertise and he could appreciate that. So I could see him working well with Dorn as another fellow perfectionist.
I really like the idea of them being Fulgums scions, it gives the setting some nice depth and some interesting ideas about how much gene seed actually effects a space marine
The Carcharadons are ravens guard specifically because Corvus Corrax exiled his Terran Astartes to the outer reaches of space since they were so brutal in their methods. The night lords and raven guard switched reputations once more of their respective Primarch’s home world flooded the legion
This, there's other reasons as well why the Carcharodons are definitely ravenguard, but yeah by what I've seen there's literally no evidence in lore for them being night lords, but a ton for them being ravenguard. A common thing night lord fanboys say about them is that they look like nightlords. Ignoring the fact that corvus and Konrad looked the same.... 🙄 corvus even called Konrad his "dark reflection" on several occasions.
Actually, while trued Corvus told his Terran born sons to fuck off, they are most likely forming the Ashen Claws Chapter (which has a feud with the Carcharadon because Tyberos stole Hunger and Slake from them), mainly because the Ashen Claws during the heresy were pirates formerly of the Raven Guard. Carcharadon are probably chimeric from World Eaters and Night Lords.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndThere's no evidence that they have either of those gene seeds in them. Explain why during the badab war when the gene seed of the carcharodons was tested it came back conclusively ravenguard? Also explain where in lore it's said or even implied that they're night lords or world eaters, cause I've read both novels and both short stories, as well as their entire wiki and I've found nothing stating this outside of reddit posts. Just because they have a feud with other ravenguard successor chapters doesn't mean they're night lords that's a silly reason to think that.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndAlso the Carcharodons chapter master holds the title of "the Shade lord" which is the same title Arkhus Fal had before fucking off like Corvus told them to. They're the only two characters in all of 40k imperium lore to hold that title.
I feel like Charcharadons make use of Night Lord and World Eater Gene seed because they are Raven guard Outcasts they wouldn’t get restocked and had to make due. Also they have a range of mutations that vary from marine to marine almost like the Gene seed is different from one another.
What makes the sons of the phoenix so interesting a concept to what the traitors legions could have looked like in 40k should they have stayed loyal. I could buy the idea that over time the emperors children would go from idolizing the emperors to worshiping him as a god
Sons of the Phoenix are what got me interested in successor chapters and loyalist space marines as a whole. I currently have an army being ran with Black Templar rules since that seems the most fitting. I’m even trying to recreate the Ember Phoenix characters too. Sovennes is almost done, I just need to paint him. And that new Daredao Dreadnought from Horus Heresy you know I’m making Vespian for sure.
@@Frerichs1962There's literally no evidence to back this up in lore. But a ton of evidence to back up them being ravenguard. Tell me where in lore it says or even implies that they're night lords, because no one has been able to explain that to me. They just assert it blindly.
I like the idea of them being EC successors mainly because I feel like it really harkens back to them being some of *the* most stalwart in their loyalty before the Laer happened. If Rylanor survived he would've definitely been their chapter master.
I also like that they actually use Clone Fulgrim in the Ember Phoenix comics cause I think it is an interesting idea that is just sitting in Trazyn’s collection
The next Iron Hand book series will involve the Sons of the Phenox as allies invading a Necron Tomb complex in order to retrieve an artifact and kill all hostile. Trazyn the Infinate will be directly implicated into the book and the Emperor's Children will make an appearance alongside Fabious Bile. Take this info with what you will.
woah woah I know I'm late as fuck but where did you get this info? New Iron hands book series? Including Sons of the Phoenix? Including Necrons, Emperor's children? and Trayzn
To be fair any chapter descended from a legion which uses the "pain glove" is just some sexy mood music and lavender scented oils away from Slaanesh anyway.
I dont think Guilliman denied Cawl because he thought they would turn, I think he denied it because he had just been revived with Mechanicus and Xeno BS and people would be very skeptical of him starting to change things rapidly. Like Ending the imperial creed with a flip of a switch would open up Eclesiarchy to shout that the filthy xenos had corrupted the son of god. and Guilliman greenlighting the manufacturing of Traitor geneseed Astartes would likely go down the same rabbithole. Some members of Mechanicus and Eclesiarchy claiming that the Avenging son is corrupted by chaos and trys to build an army for the traitors. HH loyalist traitors didnt have much chance either but atleast if they managed to prove themselves they were taken in the loyalists. That wouldnt fly in M42 when every deviation from the norm of the Imperium and Imperial Creed is considered heresy.
Doesn't matter what you think their discussion in the book is about the traitor Genesee d being tainted to Guilloman. Than Cawl points out there's is a bunch of ultra traitors around and Guilloman gets super salty.
@@livanbard well guilliman has to entertain the possibility that geneseed from Chaoscorrupted primarchs could be tainted. And cawls comparison doesnt really hold true. Induvidual ultramarine does not corrupt HIS geneseed. While the origin of Traitor geneseed is all chaos corrupted. While cawl is using stock pre-heresy its still at some level connected to the origin of it. Now we know there is none with the speculated Traitor geneseed chapters around. But obviously logistical minded guilliman doesnt want to do the usual mechanicus path of fuck around and find out. Basicly while whole imperium would think that just being of traitor seed is heresy, guilliman has to worry about how safe it actually is, loyal men might fall due the machinations of chaos.
I really like the idea of traitor legion successor chapters. Something had to happen with the portions of their legions that stayed loyal and survived Isstvan or their regional equivalent. The sons of the phoenix as an ultima founding chapter aren't exactly that, but i think its just neat that you can have loyalist space marines that derive from the unique qualities of the traitor legions, just as you can have chaos marines that are loyalist successors and turned traitor as individual chapters.
I think sons of the Phoenix being EC successor, and Clonegrim coming back to do battle against the EC and Daemon Fulgrim would be righteous. Narratively I enjoy the idea of Daemon Fulgrim losing over and over, just like after Rylanor he is a troubled lesser being who can’t escape how far he’s fallen. After each loss his warp presence diminishes until he’s a whisper in the warp. Clonegrim wouldn’t have to win or survive, just so long as Fulgrim loses over and over.
No First, Clonegrim was introduced by Josh Reynolds to go out with a bang as this was his last black library story. He was put in the vault and is never coming out Second, Clonegrim is a chaos fan. He was created by Bile and surrounded by Chaos Space Marines on a Chaos ship. He hates the imperium and would never join them. Third, bringing Clonegrim back would just make other primarchs worse. Your suggestion is just a massive fuck you to real emperors children fans. Overall, clonegrim should never come back. The loyalist EC are cool because they made a valiant last stand and died on Istvaan. To bring them back is to make their sacrifice less cool
@@alexwilbrecht6962 A whole bunch of people wants Clonegrim back. Just because you don't does not mean it's a massive fuck you to real third legion fans. Your opinion does not equal everybody's opinion.
Weren't the Emperor's Children given their name and the aquilla symbol for them sacrificing most of their marines to protect Big E during an assassination attempt?
I would like them to be Emps Children. As you mentioned, I think it could lead to great storytelling. Imagine if they discovered they were actually Emperor's Children the whole time and also learn about there being a purified version of their genefather trapped by the Necrons. Essentially these space marines trying to do a heist on Trazyn the Infinite to free their primarch while demon Fulgrim tries to corrupt the chapter at every turn on their mission. I also think it could be entirely possible if A, Both Imperial Fist and Emperor's Children were mixed together. Or B, The Sons of The Phoenix are made up of pure Emperor's Children geneseed, but given the Imperial Fist playbook. (In a nutshell, born emps children, raised as imperial fists)
My own personal head canon for the Minotaurs is that I’ve always thought of them more as untainted world eater geneseed, in the Angron primarch novel the legion has a very spartan flavor to its way of warfare that I always enjoyed before they took the nails and devolved into what they’ve become
I am an Emperor's Children Enjoyer so ofc they gotta be EC successors. Waiting for Trazyn to free my boy so we can have the clash of the century between loyalist and traitor EC legions
Look I love your content and I am also a night lords/curze simp. Space sharks are raven guard "Arkhas Fal was the Shade Lord of the XIXth Legion during The Great Crusade, before the Legion was reunited with their Primarch Corvus Corax. He was exiled to the outer dark as part of a nomad-predation fleet" shit lines up to nicely
Omg first time I've seen a night lords simp accept the truth! Thank you man, I love you. Maybe there's hope for the fans of the night lords after all 🥲
*Guilliman:* "It is good to have you back, brother Fulgrim, all be it due to rather... _odd_ circumstances." *Clonegrim:* "Oh, I agree on both accounts. I must say, it was quite vexing to learn that an insane daemon prince has had the gall to try to impersonate me during these long millennia of my absence." *Lion:* "He's technically the original, though." *Clonegrim:* _"Which is why_ I shall rally my sons and set out to destroy this infernal impostor, or at least humiliate him to the point where he will never dare show his face in the materium again!" *Guiliman:* "Ah... I hate to tell you this, Fulgrim, but all your sons fell to Chaos." *Clonegrim:* "Whatever do you mean? These are my sons right here: The Sons of the Phoenix!" *Dorn:* "Brother, you are mistaken. The Sons of the Phoenix are my successor chapter, not yours." *Clonegrim:* "Why, Rogal, you are capable of making jokes now! Truly, times do change. Oh well, come along now, boys! We have a giant snake daemon to stab repeatedly in the face." *Sons of the Phoenix:* "Um, okay?" *Clonegrim:* "Ferrus, dearest brother, I shall avenge you!" *Cawl:* "Hehehe.... _Keikaku dori."_ *Guiliman:* "What was that, Cawl?" *Cawl:* "Nothing!"
You forgot about the Soul Drinkers who were purple and gold too and supposed to be Imperial fist successors. They were loyal, but got tricked by daemons and kinda turned to chaos and got mutated. But then they found out and don't like chaos are now considered chaotic neutral but everyone hates them. Their current chapter master killed the last one in a duel and now has 4 spider legs which he got as "gifts" for winning the duel and was also their chief librarian at the time. And they were then put on trial by the IFs and were told my an apothecary their gene seed is not imperial fists after all.
Space sharks *are* raven guard successors. They were a group of raven guard attached to sons of Horus so they learned their assault tactics and ways of combat. This ostracized them from the rest of their raven guard brothers, so they kept isolated. Sons of Horus deployed demoralising tactics such as torture and trophy display, as well as brutal assault warfare. There is no evidence that Carcaradons are night lords, in fact night lords only attack those weaker than themselves where the Carcaradons will attack larger targets than themselves (and often win).
Im not sure the imperial fists or the iron hands would appreciate new chapters with iron warriors and emperors children geneseed. Also i like the idea of loyalist chapters having tendencies similar to traitor genelines but genuinely are sons of loyalist primarchs to show geneseed wont pre determine chapter culture
would be a funny/interesting story if Clonegrim managed to escape Trazyn's museum and blend in with the sons of the phoenix and is more than enthusiastic with the constant crusades after finding out he's not just a clone but also the original Fulgrim and his legion done fuct up.
When it comes to more Chimeric geneseed, I thought the Minitaurs were made from a mix of Iron warriors and the World eaters for some reason. It makes sense in my head but I'm not entirely sure how to explain it
I personally err on the side of Emperor's Children successors. Another suspect chapter in my opinion is the Silver Templars. Also knight-vibe, very melee and more specifically duel-oriented, with a high emphasis on martial perfection with weapons made by their own hands. They may not have any purple in their color scheme, and are supposedly of Roboute Guilliman's gene heritage, but they do not exhibit his uncanny knack for tactics and logistics, and Guilliman isn't particularly known for his swordsmanship. An odd point about the Silver Templars is that they form deep connections with the machine spirits of their masterfully self-crafted arms, and have an intuitive ease with understanding technology. At first glance, this trait could come from several different primarchs. Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim come to mind. We can automatically count Vulkan and Ferrus Manus out since they're both loyal and their sons have no reason to lie about their gene heritage. Perturabo quickly gains knowledge on how technological things work, but does not necessarily hold a fondness for melee combat, and is in fact one of, if not the only Primarch, to favor ranged weaponry. Perturabo's designs usually favor pragmatism over flair, and his methods are more geared towards digging in for prolonged siege warfare than carving dangerous paths to enemy commanders for quick, decisive eliminations of key targets. Where Perturabo represents a slow march of trenches and continuous bombardments and carefully calculated pressure on enemy defenses, Fulgrim is much more like a swift scalpel, moving with a disciplined gracefulness that cuts deep into enemy lines. Fulgrim and his sons were few enough in number that they couldn't afford any manner of prolonged, head-on conflict. That, and people often forget that Fulgrim is extremely competent at understanding and improving technologies. He started out on Chemos as a lowly miner, made enough improvements to the mining equipment that the world's economy could thrive again, and achieved a level of artistry with artifice that even Ferrus Manus couldn't deny it. I don't think Fulgrim's understanding of technology is the same as Perty's (literal book smarts versus intuitive vibing), but he still demonstrates a great aptitude for master craftsmanship. If the Silver Templars are descendants of Fulgrim, it stands to reason that they'd be masters of artfice, capable of crafting great works of both artistic value and of exceptional lethality.
Wooooo! These are my bois! As soon as I saw their armor I fell in love♡ Now I'm making them with Zumikito's recepie, tedious to say the least but love the results♡ I also found it extremely interesting that their gene-seed could be either/both Fists and EC. The potential powder-keg waiting to explode is cool as hell to think about! But I agree that it is more interesting as a mystery, a lot of people are bound to be dissapointed if it is revealed one way or the other.
Oh yeah, *totally* not traitor geneseed G-man. These guys are pretty neat, I'd love to see them actually be emperors children descendents. On that note though. What I find interesting with Gulliman's response to cawl implementing traitor gene-seed to loyalist primaris chapters, is that for most part, its a very emotional and maybe even *traumatic* response. Cawl points in the dark imperium novels that many of his own gene-seed went traitor, so what logical difference does it make of having loyalist chapters with traitor gene seed serving the imperium? I'm guessing Gulliman held his brothers in high regard before they went traitor. Even to the point of abstaining and shooting down the proposition Cawl spouted with anger and a threat. Just so he doesn't Tarnish the "good" memories he had with them or their sons. I think it has less to do with them being traitor geneseed in an objective sense and worrying about following the sins of their fathers. As we well know Gulliman to be a master at grand strategy and logistics. So having more bodies, traitor gene-seed or not, would be more effective for preserving the imperium, no? I mean, he did this with his loyalist brothers gene-seed and made a legion sized army called "The unnumbered sons" that were meant to get rid division and promote the founding loyalist chapters with unity under the right guidance. Something the legiones astartes didn't really make a priority before or during the heresy. Speaking of and rather, I think he doesn't want the memory of the horus heresy being cropped up to his mind again. There's a lot of self-guilt and admission with him surrounding that, of what he thinks he could have done or interacted with his traitor brothers more so that galaxy shattering event would have never happened. I also think him using his traitor brother's sons would be too much of thorn in his thoughts of his self-proclaimed issues of being a failure and not having history repeat itself under his watch if he can help it. I can see why he'd take it personal. Good video man, although i think traitor geneseed making loyalist chapters could be its own series, it was awesome you touched on these guys!😂
I think it's also partially due to Gulliman's cautious nature. He was convinced that the Emperor created each legion for a purpose and doesn't want to mess with the things he doesn't have knowledge about. He also doesn't want to put them into production for the same reason, there's no way to test check them for chaos taints with 100% accuracy. Gulliman and Magnus were known for being cautious when conquering planets because they wanted to preserve the cultural heritage of the locals until they can decide what to keep and what's to be discarded. The Ultramarines currently possess and maintain one of the largest library within the Imperium. They constantly fill it with new discoveries and artifacts and Gulliman also has a personal armory with weapons that are deemed obsoleted alongside the most advanced weapons he can find. I think Gulliman keeping the traitor geneseeds both because of the sentimental values and because of his habit to never throw away something until he's absolutely certain that it has nothing of value.
@minhducnguyen9276 Thats kind of good points on his character. The only thing im Iffy about is "theres no way to check if there is chaos taint 100%" According to Cawl, these primaris geneseed came from the purest stock during the heresy, most of it being processed from mars and Luna. Its as pure as you can get any geneseed, and with Cawls implementations, they're all supposedly more resistant to warp/chaos influence, and the genetic defects they did have in each legion, have been majorly reduced. So, given his knowledge, *he* can tell if there's been chaos, taint in geneseed, but from my understanding, warp taint only really happens with exposure to the warp or deliberate exposure, it doesn't come like that on its onset, and this is with any space marine loyalist/traitor geneseed or not. Its why I think gulliman is taking this more emotionally than with logic. (Can also just be Gdubbs pothole writing lol).
@@tevin4006 The problem with Chaos is that they also evolve alongside Imperial countermeasures. Especially with how deep or shallow alpha legion infiltration is. Although it's just a plot device GW conveniently throws out every time they need some explanation on why some BS happens. Coupled with the fact that Gulliman only recently started to formulate a theory on how Chaos works he doesn't want to dive straight into new territory he's unfamiliar with. And while the imperium has an extensive research on Chaos, many of it were quack science and can't be relied upon. Even for someone not talented in engineering, Gulliman deemed the current mechanicus engineering crude and inelegant.
@minhducnguyen9276 I mean, he's right about the current mechanicus, but its just more so the Belladarius Cawl equation, he's an x factor among the mechanicus and is even deemed heretical to some inside that organization, yet he did the entire primaris project and than some, its a matter of trusting him Gulliman has to worry about, not the mechanicus.
Hmm, "the phoenecian" is actually from the phoenecian people of the Levant back in the BC age. They were traders who made the very rare purple dye from crustaceans!
Just one thing though, Phoenician refers to the purple colour, Phoenicia was a state in antiquity, which produced immense amounts of purple dye, (this is also the origin of the word Punic)
Yes they are. Too much hints already to their true heritage. And I think it's experimental chapter. Probably Mechanicuses experiment with Magnuses genes to create a chapter and it's succeed. Full Loyalist chapter with Thousand Sons genestock without Flesh change.
@@Warmaster2001 I never implied that Tarvitz was alive, I meant that because there was a good dude in the EC like Tarvitz, there would be more than just him
The emperors children was name that because they were able to handle missions that they had absolutely no business being able to handle, not because they worshipped the emperor. The emperor was famously NOT into that (ask lorgar)
Chaotic Voices has a short seires on the Sons of the Phoenix. I enjoyed it very much and I'm glad to find out they are a real chapter. Thank you Arthur for letting me know about the webcomic. I will definitely check that out.
Part of the Caracharadons’ charm is their less-than-likely ancestry-Raven Guard makes sense if they were a 2nd Founding chapter since the RG got annihilated on Istvan, and the projects Corvus was desperate enough to try ended up with so many twisted and horrendous mutations among recruits. I like to think they're a chimeric chapter, Raven Guard basis with founding members counting Loyalist Night Lords that thought Curze was a drama queen and World Eaters that somehow escaped the Butcher’s Nails implantation/weren't nearly as affected by them as the rest of the Anger-on Fan Club. Also the Maori aesthetic is fuckin’ metal as sin!
Here's the thing: the Charchs AREN'T a 2nd founding chapter. They were founded long before the Heresy, when Corvus cast out the Terran legionaries for being a bunch of horrific murderers. That's where the Charcharodons came from, no loyalists from the Traitor Legions or geneseed splicing required.
Its not quite new. I remember part of the Cursed Founding was about making new chapters using the Traitor Primarch's geneseed, with some other experiments. Sons of Antaeus= Death Guard Original Minotaurs=World Eaters Lamenters: Blood Angels without Red Thirst or Black Rage
Low key, my favorite character, not at least because there isn't much information yet. I mean, imagine what would happen if The Infinite just gave them clone Fulgrim! Yeah, it MAY not happen, but I'm headcaning it if it doesn't.
i think there desendents of treader liganions as that idea is one of the most popular fan ideas cents the days of the blood ravens. gw love playing with the idea of lolouset desendest of trader primarks
Isn't the whole idea of the Ultima Founding is that the new Primaris chapters are *all* from chimeric gene-seed stock? So it's more like all the Ultima chapters have a *little* of all 20 legions in them. Naturally, some will favour some parts of the gene-seed more, so it makes sense that some of them are more like traitor successors.
Your point about not knowing, is what I think is missing from a lot of modern GW. The lore was deliberately written with gaps and missing info because the authors understood that keeping things open allowed for conversation and ideas to flourish. Having it all over explained drains the setting of its mysticism. As much as I enjoy the HH games, I feel like that part of 40k's history shouldn't be explored too much.
I understand the appeal of the mystery, however if they ever are confirmed to be emperor's children stock that would open other interesting options. Them being Sons of dorn or Fulgrim on their own wouldn't be interesting if confirmed, but expanding on the ramification of either after a confirmation would or could be.
Isn’t imperial fist gene seed like the most stable. What if Cawl can mix it with more unstable gene seeds to correct some of the genetic flaw inherent in the first legions?
Ultramarine and Pre Heresy Emperor’s Children are most stable as I understand it. Fists have a few malfunctioning geneseed organs but are otherwise mostly stable. I think the White Scars are more stable but just forgotten for being too cool and less autistic
All things considered, aren't there only like 5 "inherently" flawed gene seeds around? - Magnus' - Sanguinius' - Russ' - Arguably Lorgar's - Arguably Vulkan's Outside of that it is mostly all legion culture and flaws or a roll of the dice that came up as snake eyes for a particular successor chapter.
@@Nobody-zl3kk stable 1000 sons doesn’t intrigue you?? An actual line Astartes chapter committed to psychic warfare. Way easier to produce than a grey knight in my opinion.
i always liked to believe that Fabius had something to do with the creation of the sons of the phoenix swear he was gonna make clonegrim his own chapter or something
Ultima founding:
robute sais to belisarius: no traitor gene seed.
Belisarius: yes my lord.
Turns around.
'just a little bit'.
Just posting this here so it's seen, but we need an Astral Claws chapter vid
as a treat
Space Wolves Primaris Successor Chapter; Moon Dogs.
It's not traitor genestock if it was collected before the legion turned traitor.
If I recall in Dark Imperium, he flat out admitted there are 'trial' runs.
If I had a nickel for every time a rather sussy purple space marine chapter was claimed to be Fists stock, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice
Get this comment up!!!
Which one the other one? The exorcist?
Soul drinkers
@@notusneo soul drinkers. They’re purple
I'm not up to snuff on Soul Drinkers lore. Who is their actual Primarch? (Of course I assume it's one of those "never confirmed but heavily implied" things)
Another almost certaily Emperor's Children chapter are the Death Eagles. Because during the Heresy there was company of Emperor's Children who remained loyal, with said company being straight up called the Death Eagles. So almost certainly after the heresy they just painted their armor black and went "guys, we are totally Raven Guard successors" and called it a day.
And their original color scheme during rogue trader was cuadrilated white / magenta and yellow (probably gold) ... Rather suspicius 😂
@Coeurdeloup and the logo for the Death Eagles even now is nearly identical to the EC one
there is also the Red Scorpions, who are known to have an even purer geneseed than the Ultramarines (and before the heresy the only legion to have that was the Emperor's Children) and are very paranoid about it, outright refusing to send geneseed tithes to Mars and having more Apothecaries than normal (something common on the pre-heresy Emperor's Children).
canon?
@unspeakablemind260 we don't have a canon confirmation they are Emperor's Children...but the Death Eagles company was canonically a thing, and the chapter symbol for the Death Eagles chapter is near identical to the Emperor's Children symbol. So unconfirmed, but most likely
Bile: *Spends all day trying to cure his legion’s space cancer*
Cawl: “You are like little bab. Check this out!”
Bile the charlatan indeed :P
*procced to take 10000 year to fix it*
@@internetuser320 And fail to do so
Bile could've done it in a 1000 years if he had Cawls resources. Remember that all the crazy shit Bile has done, he essentially made with scraps and leftovers from battlefields and stolen equipment.
@@baneblade__ Resources, faction backing AND no need for secrecy would be better said. Then again, Honsou(the now infamous warsmith) had the daemonculaba(to say it was twisted and horrific wouldn't do it justice) safely on medrengard and it was still destroyed by efforts of 2 exiled ultramarines(ventris and pasanius), so perhaps some secrecy would still be called for.
"If there is any doubt about who your primarch is just say Guilliman. Ultramarine successor chapters are a dime a dozen so nobody will question it!"
-Sons of Luna giving advice to the Emperor's Adolescents
On top of that it's lot more hard to determine because the Ultra Marines legion absorbed both of the lost legions after the expungment of their primarchs.
Always got irked by the whole “if the traitors fell before they can fall again” argument. The loyalists aren’t immune to warp shenanigans or their own stupidity.
Half the Dark angels were banished or outright fell to chaos due to what was basically a terrible emergency alert system combined with The Lion and Luther both pointing and yelling “he started it.”
The Dark Angels have always been loyal. If you disagree, you should report to Asmodeus.
I think the worry is valid if the Daemon Primarch of the chapter is still around, given the unnatural power Primarchs seem to hold over their gene-sons. The whole new chapter might not be corrupted, but if half turn traitor that could disrupt a lot of plans and cause a lot of damage.
People forget how devastating Gulliman's talent could get if they are put to serve Chaos goals. Huron Blackheart was of the gene line of Gulliman and his gang is amongst the most prolific traitor warbands.
adharon's reavers are a chaos marine warband; and they were from the Sons of Guilliman chapter
so i don't know, man
@@minhducnguyen9276 tbf the Astral Claws aren't exactly confirmed if they were Ultramarines or not, some even theorize that they were from the Sons of Horus
I love these guys, totally Fulgrims true sons to me.
What I love about it is that it’s such a perfect disguise. Oh a lot of them have silver white hair? Well so did Dorn. And any aspects of them acting like Dorns sons are easily explained as the entire chapter totally believing that they are sons of Dorn and thus follow the lead of other Fist chapters.
And I don’t know if it is cannon or not but I heard recently that these guys take a special interest in their mortal troops and often lead them directly. Could totally be fan talk, but if it isn’t I don’t know anything more like Fulgrim than to help those under you be BETTER!
The Pre-Heresy EC were also well-known for their abilities in leading Guard regiments separate from the legion because they came from Europan nobility
The "Definelty not used Emperors Children geneseed" Chapter.
With the new Fulgrim model revealed last night, I expect him to return to the lore soon. We might get answers sooner than later.
AFAIK that was the 30K version. 40K version is coming soon. I wonder if people would shit themselves if they released a 40K Demon lord AND a clonegrim version :D
@@slip6699 Yeah, I figured that out shortly after I left this comment. Sorry.
we already have answers, the creator of the chapter scheme has in fact stated they are IF succesors, and that the connections to EC were genuinely coincidental.
When it comes to GW its usually later rather than more later
@@slip6699 i really hope they release Clonegrim too, having a loyalist primarch from a traitor legion would not only be cool, but also an interesting point for conflict on the imperium.
Looking forward to seeing the reaction of these guys when Clonegrim walks into the room… once Trazyn finally gets around to releasing him.
why not just buy another one from fabulous bill? I'm sure he could use some stable non-traitor geneseed for his experiments. There's plenty of toilet seat goop to go around.
They would have to trade something better like a shiny lv 100 necron tea set
or an ork sniper
Wonder would Trazyn just let him go for the shits and giggles of it? Might result in something happening he could pokeball....?
Just imagine if the next loyalist primarch is clonegrim and the confusion that non lore followers would have.
"This is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!"
Regardless of their true progenitor, I like how the sons of the phoenix show surprising links and similarities between the imperial fists and emperors children which are legions you don’t see directly compared very often outside of some Horus heresy stuff
The primarchs all strove for perfection in some particular form of warfare or statecraft. Fulgrims obsession was with the very concept of perfection itself. It’s likely why he got along so well with Primarchs like Ferris Manus and Konrad Curze. They might have been wildly different from him in nearly every conceivable way but they still strove for a perfection in their particular areas of expertise and he could appreciate that. So I could see him working well with Dorn as another fellow perfectionist.
It’s interesting to note that Belisarius never says that he wouldn’t ever use traitor gene seed. Just that he wouldn’t going FORWARD.
I really like the idea of them being Fulgums scions, it gives the setting some nice depth and some interesting ideas about how much gene seed actually effects a space marine
The Carcharadons are ravens guard specifically because Corvus Corrax exiled his Terran Astartes to the outer reaches of space since they were so brutal in their methods. The night lords and raven guard switched reputations once more of their respective Primarch’s home world flooded the legion
This, there's other reasons as well why the Carcharodons are definitely ravenguard, but yeah by what I've seen there's literally no evidence in lore for them being night lords, but a ton for them being ravenguard.
A common thing night lord fanboys say about them is that they look like nightlords. Ignoring the fact that corvus and Konrad looked the same.... 🙄 corvus even called Konrad his "dark reflection" on several occasions.
Actually, while trued Corvus told his Terran born sons to fuck off, they are most likely forming the Ashen Claws Chapter (which has a feud with the Carcharadon because Tyberos stole Hunger and Slake from them), mainly because the Ashen Claws during the heresy were pirates formerly of the Raven Guard. Carcharadon are probably chimeric from World Eaters and Night Lords.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndThere's no evidence that they have either of those gene seeds in them.
Explain why during the badab war when the gene seed of the carcharodons was tested it came back conclusively ravenguard? Also explain where in lore it's said or even implied that they're night lords or world eaters, cause I've read both novels and both short stories, as well as their entire wiki and I've found nothing stating this outside of reddit posts.
Just because they have a feud with other ravenguard successor chapters doesn't mean they're night lords that's a silly reason to think that.
@@TheLostPrimarch2ndAlso the Carcharodons chapter master holds the title of "the Shade lord" which is the same title Arkhus Fal had before fucking off like Corvus told them to.
They're the only two characters in all of 40k imperium lore to hold that title.
I feel like Charcharadons make use of Night Lord and World Eater Gene seed because they are Raven guard Outcasts they wouldn’t get restocked and had to make due.
Also they have a range of mutations that vary from marine to marine almost like the Gene seed is different from one another.
What makes the sons of the phoenix so interesting a concept to what the traitors legions could have looked like in 40k should they have stayed loyal.
I could buy the idea that over time the emperors children would go from idolizing the emperors to worshiping him as a god
Sons of the Phoenix are what got me interested in successor chapters and loyalist space marines as a whole. I currently have an army being ran with Black Templar rules since that seems the most fitting. I’m even trying to recreate the Ember Phoenix characters too. Sovennes is almost done, I just need to paint him. And that new Daredao Dreadnought from Horus Heresy you know I’m making Vespian for sure.
Vespasian MVP
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SPACE SHARK MENTION
Yeah but he said they flay people 🙄 why do half of the RUclipsrs who mention carcharodons get them wrong. I blame adeptus ridiculous.
I don't care what people say, they are loyal Night Lord successor chapter.
@@Frerichs1962There's literally no evidence to back this up in lore.
But a ton of evidence to back up them being ravenguard.
Tell me where in lore it says or even implies that they're night lords, because no one has been able to explain that to me. They just assert it blindly.
@@Redx6504They real scawy 😱
@@DragonsHoardOfPlastic sharks aren't scary, sharks are friends. Just rotate them if they give you trouble.
Bobby G: "No traitor gene seed!"
Cawl: "Wot? Sunspots...signal breaking up..."
I like the idea of them being EC successors mainly because I feel like it really harkens back to them being some of *the* most stalwart in their loyalty before the Laer happened.
If Rylanor survived he would've definitely been their chapter master.
No problem g-man, I won't use any traitor gene seed! As I've already used it!
I also like that they actually use Clone Fulgrim in the Ember Phoenix comics cause I think it is an interesting idea that is just sitting in Trazyn’s collection
He's a huge lore bomb just waiting to be released
I love the old intro being back!!
It is unique to you, and makes your channel feel more genuine.
The next Iron Hand book series will involve the Sons of the Phenox as allies invading a Necron Tomb complex in order to retrieve an artifact and kill all hostile. Trazyn the Infinate will be directly implicated into the book and the Emperor's Children will make an appearance alongside Fabious Bile. Take this info with what you will.
Clone Fulgrim might be in the book.
woah woah I know I'm late as fuck but where did you get this info? New Iron hands book series? Including Sons of the Phoenix? Including Necrons, Emperor's children? and Trayzn
To be fair any chapter descended from a legion which uses the "pain glove" is just some sexy mood music and lavender scented oils away from Slaanesh anyway.
These guys are totally the Emperor's Grandchildren.
I dont think Guilliman denied Cawl because he thought they would turn, I think he denied it because he had just been revived with Mechanicus and Xeno BS and people would be very skeptical of him starting to change things rapidly. Like Ending the imperial creed with a flip of a switch would open up Eclesiarchy to shout that the filthy xenos had corrupted the son of god. and Guilliman greenlighting the manufacturing of Traitor geneseed Astartes would likely go down the same rabbithole. Some members of Mechanicus and Eclesiarchy claiming that the Avenging son is corrupted by chaos and trys to build an army for the traitors. HH loyalist traitors didnt have much chance either but atleast if they managed to prove themselves they were taken in the loyalists. That wouldnt fly in M42 when every deviation from the norm of the Imperium and Imperial Creed is considered heresy.
Doesn't matter what you think their discussion in the book is about the traitor Genesee d being tainted to Guilloman. Than Cawl points out there's is a bunch of ultra traitors around and Guilloman gets super salty.
@@livanbard well guilliman has to entertain the possibility that geneseed from Chaoscorrupted primarchs could be tainted. And cawls comparison doesnt really hold true. Induvidual ultramarine does not corrupt HIS geneseed. While the origin of Traitor geneseed is all chaos corrupted. While cawl is using stock pre-heresy its still at some level connected to the origin of it. Now we know there is none with the speculated Traitor geneseed chapters around. But obviously logistical minded guilliman doesnt want to do the usual mechanicus path of fuck around and find out. Basicly while whole imperium would think that just being of traitor seed is heresy, guilliman has to worry about how safe it actually is, loyal men might fall due the machinations of chaos.
I really like the idea of traitor legion successor chapters. Something had to happen with the portions of their legions that stayed loyal and survived Isstvan or their regional equivalent. The sons of the phoenix as an ultima founding chapter aren't exactly that, but i think its just neat that you can have loyalist space marines that derive from the unique qualities of the traitor legions, just as you can have chaos marines that are loyalist successors and turned traitor as individual chapters.
You literally made a poll on which intro we liked. Don’t act surprised.
I think sons of the Phoenix being EC successor, and Clonegrim coming back to do battle against the EC and Daemon Fulgrim would be righteous.
Narratively I enjoy the idea of Daemon Fulgrim losing over and over, just like after Rylanor he is a troubled lesser being who can’t escape how far he’s fallen. After each loss his warp presence diminishes until he’s a whisper in the warp.
Clonegrim wouldn’t have to win or survive, just so long as Fulgrim loses over and over.
apothecary
No
First, Clonegrim was introduced by Josh Reynolds to go out with a bang as this was his last black library story. He was put in the vault and is never coming out
Second, Clonegrim is a chaos fan. He was created by Bile and surrounded by Chaos Space Marines on a Chaos ship. He hates the imperium and would never join them.
Third, bringing Clonegrim back would just make other primarchs worse. Your suggestion is just a massive fuck you to real emperors children fans.
Overall, clonegrim should never come back. The loyalist EC are cool because they made a valiant last stand and died on Istvaan. To bring them back is to make their sacrifice less cool
@@alexwilbrecht6962 well I’m going to say yes, YES! You cannot stop me from taking a different position on the topic! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!
@@alexwilbrecht6962 A whole bunch of people wants Clonegrim back. Just because you don't does not mean it's a massive fuck you to real third legion fans. Your opinion does not equal everybody's opinion.
@@mrman9977 i have laid out reasons why bringing the character back would be harmful to the setting. Read those and come back
Weren't the Emperor's Children given their name and the aquilla symbol for them sacrificing most of their marines to protect Big E during an assassination attempt?
Yes
When you talk about the Space Sharks, will you include a picture of Garchomp?
Thank you for bringing back the awkward intro😊. Sending love and kisses to oatmeal😘
Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children are the coolest of all the legions so some loyalist successors would be awesome
I would like them to be Emps Children. As you mentioned, I think it could lead to great storytelling. Imagine if they discovered they were actually Emperor's Children the whole time and also learn about there being a purified version of their genefather trapped by the Necrons. Essentially these space marines trying to do a heist on Trazyn the Infinite to free their primarch while demon Fulgrim tries to corrupt the chapter at every turn on their mission.
I also think it could be entirely possible if A, Both Imperial Fist and Emperor's Children were mixed together. Or B, The Sons of The Phoenix are made up of pure Emperor's Children geneseed, but given the Imperial Fist playbook. (In a nutshell, born emps children, raised as imperial fists)
My own personal head canon for the Minotaurs is that I’ve always thought of them more as untainted world eater geneseed, in the Angron primarch novel the legion has a very spartan flavor to its way of warfare that I always enjoyed before they took the nails and devolved into what they’ve become
I love these vids! I don't see many obscure chapters spoken about!
Dude, we love you, no matter which intro you use. As long as it's the old one, of course! But we love you anyway.
I like the new one, but I like the old one more.
I am an Emperor's Children Enjoyer so ofc they gotta be EC successors. Waiting for Trazyn to free my boy so we can have the clash of the century between loyalist and traitor EC legions
We also have the confirmed one in the Silver Skulls. Loyalist Iron Warriors.
Damn now I am starting to think that theres plenty amount of chapters that are created from 4th Legions genestock
I believe it was confirmed that the Minotaurs are an Iron Warrior’s successor, which is why they only take their orders from the high lords.
Look I love your content and I am also a night lords/curze simp. Space sharks are raven guard "Arkhas Fal was the Shade Lord of the XIXth Legion during The Great Crusade, before the Legion was reunited with their Primarch Corvus Corax. He was exiled to the outer dark as part of a nomad-predation fleet" shit lines up to nicely
Agreed sir, but in addition don’t they trade for the aforementioned suspect gene stock?
Omg first time I've seen a night lords simp accept the truth!
Thank you man, I love you. Maybe there's hope for the fans of the night lords after all 🥲
*Guilliman:* "It is good to have you back, brother Fulgrim, all be it due to rather... _odd_ circumstances."
*Clonegrim:* "Oh, I agree on both accounts. I must say, it was quite vexing to learn that an insane daemon prince has had the gall to try to impersonate me during these long millennia of my absence."
*Lion:* "He's technically the original, though."
*Clonegrim:* _"Which is why_ I shall rally my sons and set out to destroy this infernal impostor, or at least humiliate him to the point where he will never dare show his face in the materium again!"
*Guiliman:* "Ah... I hate to tell you this, Fulgrim, but all your sons fell to Chaos."
*Clonegrim:* "Whatever do you mean? These are my sons right here: The Sons of the Phoenix!"
*Dorn:* "Brother, you are mistaken. The Sons of the Phoenix are my successor chapter, not yours."
*Clonegrim:* "Why, Rogal, you are capable of making jokes now! Truly, times do change. Oh well, come along now, boys! We have a giant snake daemon to stab repeatedly in the face."
*Sons of the Phoenix:* "Um, okay?"
*Clonegrim:* "Ferrus, dearest brother, I shall avenge you!"
*Cawl:* "Hehehe.... _Keikaku dori."_
*Guiliman:* "What was that, Cawl?"
*Cawl:* "Nothing!"
You forgot about the Soul Drinkers who were purple and gold too and supposed to be Imperial fist successors.
They were loyal, but got tricked by daemons and kinda turned to chaos and got mutated.
But then they found out and don't like chaos are now considered chaotic neutral but everyone hates them.
Their current chapter master killed the last one in a duel and now has 4 spider legs which he got as "gifts" for winning the duel and was also their chief librarian at the time.
And they were then put on trial by the IFs and were told my an apothecary their gene seed is not imperial fists after all.
I'm here to support the Old Intro and as always the background music.
Space sharks *are* raven guard successors.
They were a group of raven guard attached to sons of Horus so they learned their assault tactics and ways of combat.
This ostracized them from the rest of their raven guard brothers, so they kept isolated.
Sons of Horus deployed demoralising tactics such as torture and trophy display, as well as brutal assault warfare.
There is no evidence that Carcaradons are night lords, in fact night lords only attack those weaker than themselves where the Carcaradons will attack larger targets than themselves (and often win).
If you don't already know the Minotaurs are confirmed IW successors. You don't have a lot of lore cred.
Im not sure the imperial fists or the iron hands would appreciate new chapters with iron warriors and emperors children geneseed. Also i like the idea of loyalist chapters having tendencies similar to traitor genelines but genuinely are sons of loyalist primarchs to show geneseed wont pre determine chapter culture
Thanks for bringing back the old intro. You saved me having to make a disappointed comment.
Redeemed Clonegrim vs Daemon Fulgrim would be awesome
would be a funny/interesting story if Clonegrim managed to escape Trazyn's museum and blend in with the sons of the phoenix and is more than enthusiastic with the constant crusades after finding out he's not just a clone but also the original Fulgrim and his legion done fuct up.
The background music is so beautifully unsettling
When it comes to more Chimeric geneseed, I thought the Minitaurs were made from a mix of Iron warriors and the World eaters for some reason. It makes sense in my head but I'm not entirely sure how to explain it
I just made a joke about these recently and now there is a video on them lol. Though I thought their cover was they were blood angels successors.
I personally err on the side of Emperor's Children successors.
Another suspect chapter in my opinion is the Silver Templars. Also knight-vibe, very melee and more specifically duel-oriented, with a high emphasis on martial perfection with weapons made by their own hands. They may not have any purple in their color scheme, and are supposedly of Roboute Guilliman's gene heritage, but they do not exhibit his uncanny knack for tactics and logistics, and Guilliman isn't particularly known for his swordsmanship.
An odd point about the Silver Templars is that they form deep connections with the machine spirits of their masterfully self-crafted arms, and have an intuitive ease with understanding technology. At first glance, this trait could come from several different primarchs. Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim come to mind.
We can automatically count Vulkan and Ferrus Manus out since they're both loyal and their sons have no reason to lie about their gene heritage.
Perturabo quickly gains knowledge on how technological things work, but does not necessarily hold a fondness for melee combat, and is in fact one of, if not the only Primarch, to favor ranged weaponry. Perturabo's designs usually favor pragmatism over flair, and his methods are more geared towards digging in for prolonged siege warfare than carving dangerous paths to enemy commanders for quick, decisive eliminations of key targets.
Where Perturabo represents a slow march of trenches and continuous bombardments and carefully calculated pressure on enemy defenses, Fulgrim is much more like a swift scalpel, moving with a disciplined gracefulness that cuts deep into enemy lines. Fulgrim and his sons were few enough in number that they couldn't afford any manner of prolonged, head-on conflict.
That, and people often forget that Fulgrim is extremely competent at understanding and improving technologies. He started out on Chemos as a lowly miner, made enough improvements to the mining equipment that the world's economy could thrive again, and achieved a level of artistry with artifice that even Ferrus Manus couldn't deny it. I don't think Fulgrim's understanding of technology is the same as Perty's (literal book smarts versus intuitive vibing), but he still demonstrates a great aptitude for master craftsmanship. If the Silver Templars are descendants of Fulgrim, it stands to reason that they'd be masters of artfice, capable of crafting great works of both artistic value and of exceptional lethality.
Wooooo! These are my bois!
As soon as I saw their armor I fell in love♡ Now I'm making them with Zumikito's recepie, tedious to say the least but love the results♡
I also found it extremely interesting that their gene-seed could be either/both Fists and EC. The potential powder-keg waiting to explode is cool as hell to think about!
But I agree that it is more interesting as a mystery, a lot of people are bound to be dissapointed if it is revealed one way or the other.
I assure you Guilliman I didn't use *wink* any *wink* traitor *wink* geneseed *wink*
I heard once he tried to get gene seed from the [REDACTED] legions casue apparently there still in stock?
Oh yeah, *totally* not traitor geneseed G-man.
These guys are pretty neat, I'd love to see them actually be emperors children descendents. On that note though.
What I find interesting with Gulliman's response to cawl implementing traitor gene-seed to loyalist primaris chapters, is that for most part, its a very emotional and maybe even *traumatic* response.
Cawl points in the dark imperium novels that many of his own gene-seed went traitor, so what logical difference does it make of having loyalist chapters with traitor gene seed serving the imperium?
I'm guessing Gulliman held his brothers in high regard before they went traitor. Even to the point of abstaining and shooting down the proposition Cawl spouted with anger and a threat. Just so he doesn't Tarnish the "good" memories he had with them or their sons.
I think it has less to do with them being traitor geneseed in an objective sense and worrying about following the sins of their fathers. As we well know Gulliman to be a master at grand strategy and logistics. So having more bodies, traitor gene-seed or not, would be more effective for preserving the imperium, no? I mean, he did this with his loyalist brothers gene-seed and made a legion sized army called "The unnumbered sons" that were meant to get rid division and promote the founding loyalist chapters with unity under the right guidance. Something the legiones astartes didn't really make a priority before or during the heresy.
Speaking of and rather, I think he doesn't want the memory of the horus heresy being cropped up to his mind again. There's a lot of self-guilt and admission with him surrounding that, of what he thinks he could have done or interacted with his traitor brothers more so that galaxy shattering event would have never happened. I also think him using his traitor brother's sons would be too much of thorn in his thoughts of his self-proclaimed issues of being a failure and not having history repeat itself under his watch if he can help it. I can see why he'd take it personal.
Good video man, although i think traitor geneseed making loyalist chapters could be its own series, it was awesome you touched on these guys!😂
I think it's also partially due to Gulliman's cautious nature. He was convinced that the Emperor created each legion for a purpose and doesn't want to mess with the things he doesn't have knowledge about. He also doesn't want to put them into production for the same reason, there's no way to test check them for chaos taints with 100% accuracy. Gulliman and Magnus were known for being cautious when conquering planets because they wanted to preserve the cultural heritage of the locals until they can decide what to keep and what's to be discarded. The Ultramarines currently possess and maintain one of the largest library within the Imperium. They constantly fill it with new discoveries and artifacts and Gulliman also has a personal armory with weapons that are deemed obsoleted alongside the most advanced weapons he can find. I think Gulliman keeping the traitor geneseeds both because of the sentimental values and because of his habit to never throw away something until he's absolutely certain that it has nothing of value.
@minhducnguyen9276 Thats kind of good points on his character. The only thing im Iffy about is "theres no way to check if there is chaos taint 100%"
According to Cawl, these primaris geneseed came from the purest stock during the heresy, most of it being processed from mars and Luna. Its as pure as you can get any geneseed, and with Cawls implementations, they're all supposedly more resistant to warp/chaos influence, and the genetic defects they did have in each legion, have been majorly reduced.
So, given his knowledge, *he* can tell if there's been chaos, taint in geneseed, but from my understanding, warp taint only really happens with exposure to the warp or deliberate exposure, it doesn't come like that on its onset, and this is with any space marine loyalist/traitor geneseed or not. Its why I think gulliman is taking this more emotionally than with logic. (Can also just be Gdubbs pothole writing lol).
@@tevin4006 The problem with Chaos is that they also evolve alongside Imperial countermeasures. Especially with how deep or shallow alpha legion infiltration is. Although it's just a plot device GW conveniently throws out every time they need some explanation on why some BS happens. Coupled with the fact that Gulliman only recently started to formulate a theory on how Chaos works he doesn't want to dive straight into new territory he's unfamiliar with. And while the imperium has an extensive research on Chaos, many of it were quack science and can't be relied upon. Even for someone not talented in engineering, Gulliman deemed the current mechanicus engineering crude and inelegant.
@minhducnguyen9276 I mean, he's right about the current mechanicus, but its just more so the Belladarius Cawl equation, he's an x factor among the mechanicus and is even deemed heretical to some inside that organization, yet he did the entire primaris project and than some, its a matter of trusting him Gulliman has to worry about, not the mechanicus.
It's not that we can't have nice things. it's just that we dont want new things.
I like the idea that the Sons of the Phoenix were made from the geneseed of members of the Emperors Children that DIDN'T become corrupt.
The problem is those who didn't corrupted are dead in Istvaan 3 or become Death Eagles (ex 32nd Millennial of Emperor's Children)
Ahhh good old ice-cream truck Arthur is back! 😉
I theorize that the Wolfspear chapter are a chimeric mix of Russ/Horus
Hmm, "the phoenecian" is actually from the phoenecian people of the Levant back in the BC age.
They were traders who made the very rare purple dye from crustaceans!
Whats your point nerd?
Just one thing though, Phoenician refers to the purple colour, Phoenicia was a state in antiquity, which produced immense amounts of purple dye, (this is also the origin of the word Punic)
There's also the Blood Ravens who are probably Thousanf Son Descendants
Yes they are. Too much hints already to their true heritage. And I think it's experimental chapter. Probably Mechanicuses experiment with Magnuses genes to create a chapter and it's succeed. Full Loyalist chapter with Thousand Sons genestock without Flesh change.
You're videos are actually pretty good. Before I usually clicked off them immediately after I heard the intro, thanks for getting rid of it.
I like the 'Hi' intro. It's happier
I’d like to think that they’re emperors children just for the idea that there’s a dude like Saul Tarvitz still roaming around
Tarvitz is dead. He didn't survived and didn't joined the Knights Errant as Loken did.
@@Warmaster2001 I never implied that Tarvitz was alive, I meant that because there was a good dude in the EC like Tarvitz, there would be more than just him
The emperors children was name that because they were able to handle missions that they had absolutely no business being able to handle, not because they worshipped the emperor. The emperor was famously NOT into that (ask lorgar)
mission accomplished men. We've bullied Arthur into using the old intro. Job well done boys.
I like the old intro
All I know is that the Leviathan box is perfect for them (fire and meelee is the main things in that box)
Trazyn: Oh wow! A shiny Emperor's Children! (throws pokeball)
May I ask for the name of the background music? I like it.
Came for the "uuuh",
Stayed for the "hi!"
Regardless of the intro, the content is always fun and interesting. Love your work
Blood Ravens-Thousand sons
Minotaurs- Iron Warriors
Sons of the pheonix- Emperors Children
Covenant of Fire- Word bearers
There are a few others too
Death Eagles- Emperor's Children
Scythes of the Emperor and Silver Skulls - Iron Warriors
Bruh, the “uuuuuuh. Hi! I’m Arthur…” is ICONIC
Chaotic Voices has a short seires on the Sons of the Phoenix. I enjoyed it very much and I'm glad to find out they are a real chapter.
Thank you Arthur for letting me know about the webcomic. I will definitely check that out.
It is important to note that some chapter have in universe rumors of being successors of traitor legions
You should do a video on Tyberos or mix him into the Cahracaradon video he is one of my favorite space marine character also Retributor chapter when?
"I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I do not *trust* coincidences!"
I like to think there are both He used the Imperial first gene to stabilize the emperor's children so it is a combination of both :)
I like the og intros because it’s kinda cute in my opinion
Part of the Caracharadons’ charm is their less-than-likely ancestry-Raven Guard makes sense if they were a 2nd Founding chapter since the RG got annihilated on Istvan, and the projects Corvus was desperate enough to try ended up with so many twisted and horrendous mutations among recruits. I like to think they're a chimeric chapter, Raven Guard basis with founding members counting Loyalist Night Lords that thought Curze was a drama queen and World Eaters that somehow escaped the Butcher’s Nails implantation/weren't nearly as affected by them as the rest of the Anger-on Fan Club.
Also the Maori aesthetic is fuckin’ metal as sin!
Here's the thing: the Charchs AREN'T a 2nd founding chapter. They were founded long before the Heresy, when Corvus cast out the Terran legionaries for being a bunch of horrific murderers. That's where the Charcharodons came from, no loyalists from the Traitor Legions or geneseed splicing required.
Its not quite new. I remember part of the Cursed Founding was about making new chapters using the Traitor Primarch's geneseed, with some other experiments.
Sons of Antaeus= Death Guard
Original Minotaurs=World Eaters
Lamenters: Blood Angels without Red Thirst or Black Rage
Not really. Lamenters also succumbing to Blood Angels flaws.
Low key, my favorite character, not at least because there isn't much information yet.
I mean, imagine what would happen if The Infinite just gave them clone Fulgrim! Yeah, it MAY not happen, but I'm headcaning it if it doesn't.
i think there desendents of treader liganions as that idea is one of the most popular fan ideas cents the days of the blood ravens. gw love playing with the idea of lolouset desendest of trader primarks
I love the old intro. It is special. ❤
Isn't the whole idea of the Ultima Founding is that the new Primaris chapters are *all* from chimeric gene-seed stock? So it's more like all the Ultima chapters have a *little* of all 20 legions in them. Naturally, some will favour some parts of the gene-seed more, so it makes sense that some of them are more like traitor successors.
Your point about not knowing, is what I think is missing from a lot of modern GW.
The lore was deliberately written with gaps and missing info because the authors understood that keeping things open allowed for conversation and ideas to flourish.
Having it all over explained drains the setting of its mysticism.
As much as I enjoy the HH games, I feel like that part of 40k's history shouldn't be explored too much.
So what are the odds the warp squirrel that is Cawl use gene seed from the unnamed primarchs?
very high
Every time I come back to this channel I want to play Bioshock again and I don't know why.
They could also be of chimeric geneseed from both Emperors Children and Imperial Fists.
I am a fan of the sons of the phoenix.
I AM ALSO A FAN OF THE OLD INTRO.
I understand the appeal of the mystery, however if they ever are confirmed to be emperor's children stock that would open other interesting options. Them being Sons of dorn or Fulgrim on their own wouldn't be interesting if confirmed, but expanding on the ramification of either after a confirmation would or could be.
the creator of the chapter name/scheme has in fact sated they are IF, and that the connections to EC were coincidental.
Isn’t imperial fist gene seed like the most stable. What if Cawl can mix it with more unstable gene seeds to correct some of the genetic flaw inherent in the first legions?
That would make sense, using the Fists unbendingly stable genestock to Iron out the issues.
Ultramarine and Pre Heresy Emperor’s Children are most stable as I understand it.
Fists have a few malfunctioning geneseed organs but are otherwise mostly stable. I think the White Scars are more stable but just forgotten for being too cool and less autistic
All things considered, aren't there only like 5 "inherently" flawed gene seeds around?
- Magnus'
- Sanguinius'
- Russ'
- Arguably Lorgar's
- Arguably Vulkan's
Outside of that it is mostly all legion culture and flaws or a roll of the dice that came up as snake eyes for a particular successor chapter.
@@Nobody-zl3kk stable 1000 sons doesn’t intrigue you?? An actual line Astartes chapter committed to psychic warfare. Way easier to produce than a grey knight in my opinion.
@@80krauser oh darn! They can’t spit acid
Maybe the chapter is a chimera of both Imperial Fist and Emperor's Children geneseed
i always liked to believe that Fabius had something to do with the creation of the sons of the phoenix swear he was gonna make clonegrim his own chapter or something
i think the minotaurs have been canonically confirmed to be iron warrior descendants but i may be mistaken
I think you should bring back post recording Arthur with your thoughts and anything you forgot to add.
Or maybe I just miss the Omori music you used