Best EV firefighting (thermal runaway) technique yet! | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2023
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Spot on John. As a chemical engineer I am fully aware of low probability high consequence events. Incidentally, thees types of events began with railways in the UK in the 1840s. The response, formation of the Railway Inspectorate who investigated every incident and made enforceable recommendations to prevent recurrence.
Can you use salt sea water instead of brine?
@@WhiteLivesMatterPL not really you can only take a couple of degrees of it before it freezes The brine was -16 ?
@@laurabeaumont3593 libtards from google say it's -2°C. Could've checked it earlier 😬
Yep just like what will happen with electric vehicles, problems will occur, smart people will fix them cars will get even safer. Just the leap from petrol to electric is reducing the likelihood of fire by 22 times
@@kylebeetham3679
Interesting and useful solution. Here in UK we are not allowed to take an LPG powered vehicle through the channel tunnel to France and the amount of spare Petrol in containers is strictly limited for FIRE safety reasons. Vehicles are loaded onto a train consisting of separate carriages with fire shutters between each carriage. Occupants remain in their cars for the 35 minute journey. EVs however are WELCOME, they even have charge points in the terminal waiting area. I may have to review my use of the tunnel to get to Europe.
Main reason for the LPG restriction is that there were too many botched conversions with leaks. Same reason why some ferry companies banned them. The per-vehicle incident rate of fire in BEVs vs ICE cars is small. Risk of fire in a BEV is low. It’s also much less likely to get as dangerously explosive as say a petrol fire. They do burn hotter and for longer though…
but still allowed to take a van with lpg on the chunnel and ferries providing the tanks switched off
@@amiddled Love how you koolaid drinkers love saying how rare EV fires are and low risk… And gasoline cars exploding? lol You should quit watching movies. At least you got the EV burns hotter longer right, conveniently left out that it burns itself out even if the fire department is there.
Reality is EV fires do go on thermal runaway on their own, and just like ICE can catch fire due to an accident or something else around it catching on fire..
Like it or not, other than drive train vehicles really aren’t that much different. It’s not like EV’s don’t have an electrical system, brake system and components like wheel bearings that I’ve seen cause vehicle fires. As an automotive technician I’ve seen more electrical fires than drivetrain fires that an EV doesn’t have. And let’s not pretend an electric motor can’t catch fire because they can. Most gasoline related fires I’ve personally seen is one carbureted engines being worked on by someone who probably should educate themselves before trying to turn a wrench but was at least smart enough to have a fire extinguisher, garden hose nearby. Seen a few where the shoveled dirt or sand and threw it on it to put it out. Lots of janky wiring from adding lights or stereo equipment which EV’s will get to share in with time. It’s also just a matter of time “handyman” will be attempting to make his own repairs on EV’s..
Can you still get to Europe after Brexit?
@@MrKOenigma what sort of a question is that? of course we can
Brine has been used for many years to discharge LiPo batteries that have gone a bit puffy when used in the RC industry. Well done TJ and his mates. Science and practicality. 13 out of 10 indeed.
Are there enough Brians to fight Ev fires or will a bunch of Steves be enough ?
Being a professional firie, I always watch and listen to your videos on these issues as you have well thought out ideas and practical solutions based on facts… being an engineer… that’s what you do, and I think you do it well.👍🏻👍🏻
As you pointed out… the fire fighting medium needs to be delivered directly into the cell casing to be effective… thumbs up to the mining industry for engineering that feature into their EV👍🏻
On a practical application for the real world… Another problem for the firefighters is the finite space on a firetruck and having to carry sufficient onboard brine solution as well as water and foam (which is on most urban trucks).
It’s great to learn that the brine solution discharges (and I assume neutralises the battery cells) however there would also be a serious corrosion problem with fire pumps and equipment being made of different metals and brine would make a wonderful electrolyte… and rarely used.
At the end of the day, unfortunately, I think it’s going to be a Ford Pinto situation before EV’s are redesigned to incorporate a dedicated battery firefighting inlet, as that would admit these things are potentially extremely dangerous, and that doesn’t sound very “green” to the customer.
Let’s see what happens…
Thanks for the update John.
@AutoExpertJohnGiveaway G’day John… just noticed this notification to reply to you.
Cheers
Clint
@@clintdart8572 I don't think that's John. It may be a scammer.
Question regarding fuel filler hardware on ICE vehicles in relation to serious road accidents. As a firie have you seen any instances of the fuel filler plumbing shearing to a fuel tank? My train of thought here is a "brine port" to the battery could be flexable in it's construction so location could be anywhere using available construction methods? So the port could in essence be located on the car bodywork in a similar manner to current filling locations with just a simple push to open mechanism hiding the appropriate plumbing beneath. Charging ports are in all sorts of locations depending on make or model so putting the appropriate fire suppression port on a rear quarter panel should not be too much of a stretch for those automotive engineering / design people. The manufacturers will scream blue murder over cost & added complexity but I feel once the nightmare scenario of an EV fire under a shopping centre and or apartment building will force through some suitable knee jerk legislation so we may as well do the debate on locations, fixtures and assorted plumbing before the camel (Race Horse designed by a committee) exits the gate at high speed.
Renault Zoe does have a dedicated fire extinguisher port under the rear seats, you can find this information in the"rescue card" or whatever it's called
Maybe it is possible too just carry the salt (in plastic container) and mix it with the water when needed. Instead of a dedicated brine tank.
The new Renault Megane has a port for putting a firehose straight into the battery. Apparently they consulted with the French fire brigade when designing the car.
the Zoe shown in the video actually has port into the battery box. it's under the rear seat, which is SEPARATE from whether or not it's accessible during a fire event.
TJ super hero - Thanks John for bringing this report...lets hope the car industry and pollies around the world take action!
They wont because all they care about is Money.......”For the Love of Money, is the root of all Evil”.
@@bobmitchell8012 and orange man o
As a firefighter who gets called to car fires many times a year, by the time I get to the fire there is no way I can get close enough to connect anything to a car until the fire is out!
bingo, while the Zoe shown is equipped with a port to the battery, in real world scenarios it's basically USELESS.
Asking anyone to get close enough to put a lance through the window is insane.
Battery fires shoot flames out like a rocket., And shrapnel. A quick way to loose your legs.
Thanks for the update on this important story, John. Like you, I once thought having a common standard connection for safety reasons is a "no brainer." You referred to fire department connection points outside of buildings (in Canada they are called stand pipes) that firehoses can be attached to. One would think there is a common (universal) connector, at least in one country - I was surprised to find out it ain't so! As a HS administrator I was involved in several aspects of new school design almost 25 years ago. When the local fire chief met with school, department, and contractor representatives he asked, "What style stand pipe connectors will you be using?" My interjection was "Pardon me? You mean there isn't a national standard?" "Nope, not even a provincial one." So, it should be possible to enforce a standard firefighting connector for autos, but it hasn't been done for buildings.
Very well done TJ and his mates. At least there is one person (other than yourself) who is taking this EV battery thermal runaway problem seriously as no one else seems to be in the least bit interested. He may well save the lives of the people on his vessels or at least not be left with incinerated hulk of a ship should the worst happen.
Thanks John; this embraces many of my previous comments in relation to EV fires in carparks and RoRo passenger ferries. Interesting to see Smyril Line's ferry participating and I'll be investigating further as I'll be on their Norrana vessel next month. One other point is that AI plus thermography cameras can help early detection of localised thermal abnormality in a ferry car deck ( I investigated this method a while back for municipal incinerator refuse hoppers) to initiate alarms. The inlet cooling port is a great idea. Imagine having a coolant feed pipe hooking up with the EV charging cable, or at home having to connect at least a 15mm hose before your EV could charge if you are brave enough to do that in your garage. As ever, it's going to take the first inevitable mega fire disaster with major loss of life to make legislation catch up.
@@philhealey4443 16 tonne of refrigerated brine is quite a lot but for it to be implemented by by fire brigades worldwide is quite straight forward.
Another thing that could be implemented, in this era of mass communication devices, would be a thermal App. built into the vehicle that automatically sounded an alarm. It would not be difficult, considering the amount of computerized automation required to make them go anyway.
@seanworkman431 That's another good one. There are definitely multiple issues needed to close the loop on this, including escape from the car, how the battery performs thermally
when in trouble, detection, attempts at suppression / methods to prevent spread to surrounding areas including property and other vehicles.
Some excellent ideas in this sub thread. 👍
For some reason they put all the EVs together … If any adjacent EVs got brine on their battery packs those batteries would have to scrapped, maybe the whole car. … Brine is highly corrosive.
Great info, thanks.
Note that all the EV and Li-ion battery manufacturers were very well aware of this problem well before they began mass production of EVs.
The earlier problem was expulsion gasses sufficient to lift the car about 100m. One of my colleagues was on the team that solved that issue. They designed expulsion chutes which split into opposing direction exhaust chutes. That's why you see the smoke expelling from under the car on all sides. The previous chutes all pointed down.
I saw videos of impressive nail, crush, and overload testing of these cells at least 10 years ago. I prohibited their use in all our data center design based on that and more recent evidence. I'm amazed all the agencies allowed their use for anything larger than a hand drill.
I like the standardized lance jammed into a receptacle idea. As others mentioned, a single port may work great on new cars, but on the highway burning cars are often also wreaked cars; so your single port may be smashed in, or on the ground.
On a ferry, I think seawater would be a better choice as the suppression agent. I think the chilled brine is not worth the effort, especially if you have a fitting. Without a fitting, on a ferry deck, with 1000 cars, yes chilled brine surely appears to work, but I still doubt it's necessary. If the battery burns at about 400C and seawater in the Temperate Atlantic ranges from 0 to 20C, delta T is 380C worst case. The chilled brine would only add 20-40C, or 5-10% delta T. One could simply increase the flow rate by 10% to match performance. And, they'll not run out of seawater, not have to carry it, not have to chill it. To gain the very nice conductivity to kill the battery, the seawater line could have a very highly concentrated liquid saline solution injected during use.
Most ships that size have seawater cooling systems and fire suppression. I recently set up a barge with a full operating data center aboard. Seawater cooling was really the only plausible way to cool it. We did not use a fire suppression system in that data center because there are no combustible materials within that room.
One last note. The quick connect ports should probably exists on 4 corners, 4 sides, or a combo. They should be blocked until thermally opened. I'm guessing a meltaway plug on the battery side of the pipe. Otherwise, someone may just destroy your battery for the fun of it. And, if you provide a port to inject fluid, you should also provide a port on the opposite side to release that water. Water flowing through would be much better than a pool of stationary water. Perhaps the expulsion chutes could provide this pathway.
yes a thermal fuse plug say made from wax. there are wax stick pens commercially available for temp testing used in metal fab shops to check if a part is at preheat temp. surely that could be adapted here.
Wax thermal plugs are used on ice cooling system thermostats so are well understood technology.
Well said Cycle.
Although I’m not a stem guy, your proposal seems to be the most practicable addressing more of the potential issues .
I will begin by saying that all you said makes sense to me and seems like good logic.
Not arguing with your assertion, but just a thought… because I assume the brains behind this are thinking about this kind of stuff. (I am not an expert, nor do I know profess to be knowledgeable about chemistry) but I would assume that this brine is different from sea water in some way. Lower freezing point? Less elements that interact with lithium batteries? Have no clue. But as with JCs assertions about liquid nitrogen, there is a reason why fire fighters dont use liquid nitrogen. I had that thought, but whether it was chemical, logistical or practical reasons, I figured there was a reason why LN was not used as a suppressant.
If sea water is used, i am guessing that the cooling of the liquid is part of the reason why they dont just say “sea water”.
The only other issue I have with this post is about the cooling port to batteries. You mentioned highway accidents causing excessive damage to cars and wanting 4 ports instead of 1.
I live in California, and major accidents I see on freeways, I am guessing that even if you had 4 ports, by the time fire dept arrived, the fire might be so hot they just had to use the stinger demonstrated in the video anyway.
Again, not arguing… just thinking that the scientific minds behind this have thought of this stuff.
I’d like to hear your thoughts though
The quick connection port is a great idea. Hide it in the charging door just like a conventional fuel filler. If the battery temp gets too high, the charging door automatically opens, allowing for rapid access for responders.
And add an exit port otherwise no flow...
That system looks very interesting and it is curious that it uses much of an existing on ship fire suppression system (which uses seawater, is that brine also?). Something that Sal Mercogliano from "What is Going on With Shipping" discussed when he covered two ship board car fires was the extreme difficulty of getting firefighters to the vehicles owing to the extreme closeness of the vehicles to each other and the lashings that keep them in place. Sal also explained how the systems work on RoRo ships and the problem of compartmentalizing (or lack of) the decks for fire containment. As a fire chief and former merchant sailor he knows of which he speaks.
Bribe contains more salt than sea water. On parts of the seafloor, brine lakes kill most local fauna.
John, a great video but I want to straighten the scrum a bit regarding Li metal. When a LiFePO4 battery is in a charged state, much of the lithium is over on the negative electrode intercalated within graphite with a zero valency (ie for all intents and purposes it is there as metallic lithium). The other electrode is in the form of FePO4 where the Fe is in the +3 valence state and the PO4 is 3-. Upon discharge, the Li on the negative electrode surrenders an electron to the outside circuit and becomes Li+ and heads to the positive electrode where you get Li+ + FePO4 + e- = LiFePO4 drawing an electron from the external circuit (the Fe now in the +2 valence state). The actual form of Li ions in the electrolyte is generally in the form of salts as you say like LiPF6. So the Li in the salts is not the issue - it is the Li metal within the graphite negative electrode that is the issue (and the unholy mixture that is the electrolyte).
So is a charged battery(ies) more dangerous/reactive/flammable than a pack that is discharged?
An electropositive metal like lithium reacts by donating an electron to an electron acceptor (oxidant). John is being a little disingenuous when he asserts that there is no lithium metal in a lithium ion battery. Lithium intercalated in graphite is still a very strong reductant and will react violently with water.
@@j.w.8663 , yes, when the Li is in the form of LiFePO4 it is in a lower energy state compared to being there as Lithium Metal. Still lots of material in there that can oxidise, but less likely to begin self-heating.
@@romanpolanski4928 , I don't think John is being disingenuous - I just don't think he understands that much of the Lithium is present in the reduced form (metal) in a charged LiFePO4 battery. I think the firefighting approach at big battery installations of "stay upwind and let it burn" is a good one. Keeping water away from the lithium lessens the risk of a hydrogen explosion and lessens the environmental clean-up.
@@petert4393 If John doesn't understand the electrochemistry of lithium ion batteries he should tone down the snide dismissal of people who know more than he.
The toxicity of lithium salts is another problem. Lithium is biologically active, and is prescribed to sufferers of manic depression.
Faroe Islands have a new set of undersea tunnels, that and the ferries are enough reasons to work out how to quench an EV fire. Well done TJ.
G”day John, I’m not qualified in this area, I do heavy diesel maintenance and have done a lot of work on irrigation and dredges. I don’t know if anyone else has suggested this but as part of the battery flooding system, design in a container of salt so that as water is injected it mixes on the way to the battery, in a similar manner to existing agricultural dry chemical mixers. Also easily designed as a quick connect, portable inline unit so that emergency services can carry a number of preloaded compact units for use with EVs, without needing to carry brine or compromise foam systems. Theres a thesis or two this for some bright spark.
Your suggestion for a quick connection port for firefighters to use is good one, thumbs up on that one John. While we wait, there is a device that has been under development to puncture EV underfloor battery packs. The firefighting device injects water directly into the batteries thus cooling and discharging the batteries at the same time. I will see if I can find the RUclips link.
I had seen this idea tested about a year ago. It didn't work as well as hoped for. Punching holes in the battey pack ended up shorting out more cells, which added to the heat and pressure build up in the battery pack.
@@billharris6886 Nice to know. 👍
I saw that too. It’s made by Rosenbauer in the US
Concerning that, I've seen a solution with some rack that is shoved under an EV, with massive spikes ramming into the battery, and delivering the fire-retardant directly inside the battery.
s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/rosenbauer-unveils-new-extinguishing-system-for-ev-fires_2.jpg
I love how the salt water drains the battery to zero, obviously dissipating the heat that generates as well.
No, the process of discharging the battery also generates heat. Salt water will be separated electrically by the cell energy, then recombine (sodium and chlorine in direct contact - Very exothermic!), generating more heat. Fortunately, the freezing brine will cool that system.
@@gregbailey45 did you watch a different video to me, or you just think John is wrong?
@gregbailey45 that was exactly what he just said
Some American could not come up with this idea? It''s not exactly advanced chemistry.
@@robinsattahip2376 Does it matter who came up with it?
I am an ev fan but imagine this happening in an underground car park. And it will.
@TheCunnamulla-thats right and it’s only a matter of time before this starts to happen. Evs are unfortunately not the answer to our future needs for transportation,it’s not going to work.
I’m not an EV fan , and you are right. When the first catastrophic car park fire happens in an apartment or office block, watch councils and state and federal governments start jumping around regulating EVs to death.
They built a new supermarket around the corner from my house a couple of years ago with 2 levels of basement parking...and 2 EV charging stations right next to, of all places, the exit.
Like blackout Bowen's Tesla underneath parliament house.
A fossil fuel car fire is more likely in an underground or multi story car park of any kind. This is due to fuel theft being rife in these places which most of the time are deserted. Data from insurance companies show that there are 100,000 car fires in the UK every year, about 300 a day, leaky fuel and fuel theft are the most common causes. Again using the insurance data and data from highways authorities in the USA, Sweden and the UK, you are at least 25 times more likely to have a fire in a fossil fuel car than in an EV.
My husband was involved in battery industry many years ago and worked with companies researching the use of brine to discharge lithium batteries. It works but the residual waste is a hazardous liquid which needs collection and disposal. He always said, and still says that the technology is not ready.
When I started using LiPo batteries for my model aitcraft 15 plus yeras ago there was a lot of stories of fires from damaged batteries. Putting a crashed model back in a car to only have the battery catch fire and then the car. I read a lot of recommendations for disposal involving discharging the battery to almost dead flat and then puncture the battery and leave to soak in a bucket of salty water. I have always followed that method so I could safely dispose of an old battery without fear of starting a fire along the way.
People really don’t understand how things work. I just saw a short video from a RUclips creator who’s at least a very serious car enthusiast if not an expert, with a huge following, and he was practically having an orgasm about how wonderful the small photovoltaic array on the roof of the Fisker Ocean is. It can’t produce a useful amount of electric power, and it’s just one more thing to break, but he was crowing about what a stroke of genius it is.
I agree that solar panels on cars are more of a gimmick than a useful addition to its range. However, EVs have a lot less things to break and are a lot less likely to experience a fire than a car with a fuel tank and a lot more reliable than one with an, exhaust, engine, starter motor, gearbox, fuel pump, water pump etc etc.
- would be overjoyed at my Ford Ranger - - positively huge - that solar unit keeps "all the beverages one could want", cold perpetually... lols (of course half an hour running the alternator does the same thing, but hey, everyone likes a silent camp site. lol..
@@kiae-nirodiariesencore4270 ICE vehicles use components with relatively predictable lifespans; I have a 1989 Mazda that has never let me down because I service it regularly and replace components based on their predicted lifespan and have never had a component failure as a result; over a third of a century of reliable transport for a third of a million km's. As for ICE vehicles being more prone to fires than EV's, this is nonsense; you are referring to fire statistics, which count the many deliberately lit vehicle fires and the rest are vehicles that have faults mostly related to being damaged in an accident or ICE vehicles that haven't been serviced regularly and generally are much older than the EV fleet.
The only reason the Aptera can make use of solar panels is because of the effort to improve its efficiency so much that it doesn't require nearly as much energy to work.
@@Knowbody42 Has it past any crash tests yet?
You made some excellent points about a standardized port to flood the battery pack. Thanks!
Even many more betters, if the fire fighters can connect from a few meters away. Maybe several positions on the battery with lugs where a lance could be connected and the battery pierced, water jet ???
I commented this the last time already, that would address a problem that does not exist anymore. The solution is to manufacture batteries such that they cannot run away anymore - and that is happening right now. The new batteries have highly compatmentalised cells made of high temperature resistant material, so the fire does not propagate from cell to cell anymore. Several car manufacturers are already doing this. So legislating now to fit a water port to every future car, while the runaway issue only exists in old, already on the road cars, is actually not an excellent idea, it is an unnecessary idea that would solve a problem that does not exist anymore by the time it has been legislated and implemented.
John, in the interim, say you had a setup like a pneumatic bellows jack. In the centre there could be a section that would be like a triple lift hydraulic jack with the pad replaced by a pointed and vented spike. They would have at least 75 PSI in the hoses so piercing the battery case from under the vehicle shouldn't be a problem. You would use two such items, sliding under from each side for the FIMI (Fork I Missed It) effect. Our local fire fighters could add salt through a flow through tank in such circumstances. Wouldn't cool as well but would get to the seat of the fire and discharge battery.
Great news and not that complex except for getting the pollies to take notice. In the dark ages when we went camping without a fridge that ran via electricity or gas we had ice chests, and we would add salt to keep them colder for longer.
I suspect that a "cam-lok" style connector would be the one that comes to mind. Fire fighting gear usually has universal connectors of style.
I was thinking more like a bed of nails, but with each nail being a hollow perforated tube. Under hydraulic pressure, you slam the bed up into the battery, then pump the brine up through the punctured pack. It might not be a practical solution, but what a fitting end to an EV - skewered!
Just build in an irrigation system into the battery case. Then plug the fire truck into it.
Correct me if I'm wrong Teslas use a liquid cooling system on their batteries and I guess a number of other manufacturers have similar. An after market mod might be possible. And in any case future models should have this fitted with entry ports where petrol cars have filler caps
Bravo TJ. What a champ for developing a solution to this problem
"A tremendous amount of cooling energy" that sentence grates on my brain. Great vid
When I think about Farenheit being salt water freezing point versus Celsius fresh water freezing it makes so much sense brine would have that property. We spray the stuff on the roads here in the winter in Newfoundland. I doubt it's -19 but interesting to think of it as potentially useful for other things.
It's taken decades to reduce flammability in homes and offices, and in the UK, we had , very recently, the glenfell fire , a building clad in flammable cladding, few buildings in the UK had and have now a fire engine on site
*Grenfell. It was over 6 years ago. No, we don't have fire engines on site, either. You're misinformed.
There was at some sites, and the cladding issue hasn't been resolved, from reports from beginning of this year
I have worked in Mechanical Engineering, where we used liquid nitrogen to shrink steel pins to fit into precision milled holes, and then allowed them to warm up, and expand, to lock them into place. I can assure you, that not one person with even a gram of common sense, would consider spraying liquid nitrogen ANYWHERE.
The cold brine is an excellent idea, and perfect for RORO or ROPax ferries and car carriers. The early detection is critical, but the 6 minute delay was great to show something close to a realistic situation. Add a standard port like the underground machines would be something manufacturers should be looking at for the future, but they can barely standardise the power charging setup, let alone a safety device that could be useful.
Hi John love your work.
You mentioned the Spirit of Tasmania, I had been thinking of using this ship for for a self drive holiday to Tasmania but the thought of an Ev fire on one of the roughest seas in the world in the middle of the night has now turned my plans into a fly and hire holiday.
Are you aware of any safety procedures for transporting EVs on this ship?
Regards
Ev
It's probably the most important video you've done, top job bloke
Amazing video John,
As a first responder who previously had no idea how to tackle this problem I now feel a little more comfortable facing this threat.
Lucky me I have a brine dam at work.
Keep up your awesome work.👍👍
Dave K
Hey @John Cadogan, as a volunteer firefighter I've been following the process of fighting these type of car fires since the introduction of the first electric vehicles, and the various tactics and methods that have developed, and I have to say the brine method is simply ingenious. As for a deployment method direct to the battery pack of a EV, Rosenbauer America, a subsidiary of Rosenbauer Germany, which makes top of the line fire fighting appliances (as we call our trucks) for both domestic, airport (The RAAF has Rosenbauer fire fighting tenders) and industry, have developed a method for piercing the battery pack and applying water (see attached youtube videos). This method takes a breathing apparatus cylinder (that magic air breathy thingy that lets us work in toxic environments) and attaches to a control box that drives a spike into the bottom of the battery pack, and then through this spike the pack is flooded. Now, combine this with a dedicated appliance carrying a brine system, you could potentially have a system that could be deployed anywhere to handle a EV fire in thermal runaway. The combination of these two tactics really could be a game changer for us tackling EV fires.
ruclips.net/video/xaIAb3XgYVY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/SPMoZOpN_DA/видео.html
Sounds wonderful, doesn't it? The major issue I have with this idea, which may well work for killing a battery in thermal runaway, but there remains the big killer to end all - TIME. In most countries there are regulations which dictate how many fire fighting apliances must be in a certain area due to risks in that area and response times by crews to get to any incident within set timeframes. An ev in runaway will make these response times simply unattainable as such an incident can be 100% involved in fire within 3 minutes, which means anyone trapped inside following an accident is going to die, period! I shudder to think of the potential outcome of a multiple ev collision/pile-up on a major motorway/highway. The more you begin thinking about the possibilities for a negative outcome the more I want to scream at those that would allow this to happen through ignorance.
I would recommend two water injection ports - one at the front and one at the rear of the car. If there is only one you can be sure it will be on the end of the car that is parked tight up against a wall.
Seems like an excellent solution to the issues of EVs and being transported in Ro Ro car carriers.
I sent the link to a techo mate and he offered the following:
"1. A port that goes straight into your battery is a gateway to instant total destruction by vandalism. Some one pours in a gallon of salt water, that destroys your battery and effectively makes your whole car worthless.
2. Salt is a solution of sodium chloride. If you discharge a DC battery through it, that will generate an ENORMOUS amount of chlorine. This was an experiment I used to do all the time when I was teaching."
Thinking about the loading arrangements on a car carrier and the number of crew able to respond to a fire alarm, six minutes might be a little ambitious. The trial vehicle did not have a large number of vehicles close and around it (offering access issues to the attending fire crew that may change the dynamics of the ability to contain to one vehicle).
My wife wondered whether the inclusion of a "port" to the battery of the vehicle might benefit firefighters who attend accidents or fires involving EVs. Are they able to generate a increased salt base flow to a port to overcome the need to continually flood the vehicle with thousands of litres of water.
On a separate note, it was another Scandinavian company that designed successful hi fog type fitted firefighting systems on ships (replacing gas type systems). Smart people from that area of the world.
Safety-wise, the car doors should be automatically unlocked when excess battery temp is encountered. Here in the USA car doors are locked and door releases are locked (child protection) when moving. Since the vents are opened by the battery gasses, you only need a good ingress point for brine.
Interesting idea John. If this fire suppression system works well, I'm sure all fire brigades will want to adopt this method. However, on land, such as on the street or carpark garaging, the -20C brine I would think would be a bit impractical due to the sheer volume needed. I do like the idea of a standardized dedicated battery box water injection port. Of course, during thermal runaway, the pressure release of gases would prevent water (brine) from being injected. I suggest a varation of this idea where several overpressure vents are attached to the battery box, which vent the toxic gas away from the car's interior, which would relieve the pressure so water could be injected. At this point, we may be able to use the standard fire brigade water supply to pump into the battery box. Since water would now be forced into the problem area, the huge quantity and flow may suffice at extinguishing the fire. The water injection port would need a checkvalve to prevent gas from escaping, thus protecting the fire fighters as they hook up the water supply.
The genius of the brine isn’t just about temp reduction. It’s also that the salt in the water helps discharge the battery to zero. That’s where a chunk of the magic happens.
@@ardencassie5150 Agreed, I was just throwing out ideas to possibly adapt the technique presented in the video with as few modifications as possible to conventional fire fighting techniques. Although the brine does help discharge the battery pack, it also adds to the heat being generated. The main goal of extinguishing the battery pack is to cool it off to stop the thermal runaway.
@@billharris6886 How about this idea of mine for the volumes needed. There is a water blasting system called Dustless Blasting. They mix water and sand together to remove rust ,marks on concrete. Now instead of sand you mix salt and water in the system to spray on the EVs..
@@jamesq3896 Perhaps there is a some way of imbedding a permeable block of plain old rock salt in each EV battery pack. Upon flooding with water of any kind the salt would dissolve and help to discharge the battery cells.
@@jamesq3896 Good idea James!
Yes the thermal runaway port needs to be one each side ( less chance of being deleted in front/rear shunt
I thought about a concrete nail gun making its own port … but that opens more cels
that would be okay if it's spraying salt water, they already have tools like this to fight airliner fires (on the ground, ofc)
25 year professional firefighter here from the UK. Back in my day, the biggest exceptional risk we faced in car fires was magnesium wheels, notably on the Fiat x-19 where the spare was stored in the passenger compartment. Move forward 30 years and you have a problem at least 10 times worse with probably 10 times the likelihood of the problem occurring. There are significantly more EVs already than there ever were little Fiat sports cars.
One thing nobody has so far mentioned is the batteries in hybrid cars.
Are they the same type of battery?
Is the risk of thermal runaway the same?
Presumably the average hybrid car has a smaller battery pack than a full EV?
What's your opinion, John?
My fear is that with all the talk about thermal runaway in EV's the problem presented by a far larger number of hybrid vehicles already on the road may be completely overlooked.
A firefighter told me VWs engine blocks had the same issue. EVs will have such horrible events if this is not addressed.
Thank you, John, for presenting this.
A SOLUTION, simple in its form and design. Well done to TJ and his team.
One can only hope that the people of influence take up the suggestions offered.
Good stuff John. Thank you 👍
This would also be a handy addition to those battery grid storage facilities that keep catching fire over on the west island.
Where, i will check it out...
One in Queensland last week and one in (I think) South Australia some months back. Sorry if there was any confusion, We kiwis sometimes call Australia the west island as a joke (because the 2 main islands which make up New Zealand are called the north island and the south island).@@whocares264
I have seen all your concerns of these EV fires and there potential Consequences. But this video needs to be shown in as many places as possible because it's the best answers we have so far.
There's a lot to like about a system like this. Firstly, the brine being a byproduct of their onboard freshwater plant (be it RO or Evap) means an unlimited and "free" supply. Second, by soft shorting the battery pack like this, they greatly reduce the likelihood of reignition after extinguishment. Third, by using water instead the available chemical options, toxicity and exposure risk for the crew and passengers are significantly diminished.
There are waterjet cutting lances (Cobra for example) that are designed to punch a hole through metal/stone/etc and deliver loads of high pressure water to the location of a fire. They were designed for structure fires (roofs, soffits, closed doors w/backdraft risk, etc) but have been demonstrated to work on EVs as well.
Very informative JC, thanks again for another educational lesson of the real world issues that will be solved by some very clever people working as a team
Why not just park more evs around the one on fire?
I cannot like that comment enough!
Yes, that is THE solution! When an EV catches fire, surround it by more EVs
All the EVs within reach.
In fact, I think this could work for ANY fire
TJ and his crew have made great strides in making EVs safer for all. Awesome
As a EE nerd I really appreciate you John and your honest assessments of all things EVs. BC the completely biased inputs from the ev enthusiastic crowds. With the "everything is perfect" stand point. Doesn't help fix actual real problems. Or bring them to the forefront to be acknowledged and worked on at all. All feedback is important and needed including the negative parts that those people actively avoid and disregard. Keep up the good work John BC there are alot of us EE nerds out there listening to you too.
As negative as your content may be, understandable given the industry you report on, This video was a nice change. I really hope something becomes of this.
Great work TJ
In the USA (where nothing is free) when an Ambulance or Fire Engine (operated by local gov)is called, the recipient of the service is billed (usually paid by insurance). The possibility of a $5k bill for a specialized response (preventive measure) in every EV traffic accident, and a $50k bill if actual services are performed (putting out fire) will result in the insurance companies raising rates for EVs that will kill the EV car industry.
@bigcrowfly - Best proposal so far, then.👍
Much like Medicare limits by law the amount private providers can charge the government for services, they'd just pass a law saying you can't charge EVs more than for a normal car. Forcing the private sector to just raise prices on everyone else.
Extremely elegant and super simple solution. The boat might even be able to pump sea water as a start and add extra brine.
I thought they had come up with some new chemical like I have seen in Lithium Ion fire extinguishers videos demonstrations but when you said brine I shouted F why didn't I think of that.
Draining the battery of charge is a very important part as a dead battery should not reignite.
Well done John.. an EV video worth watching. 👍
I imagine the costs and ability to have such setups everywhere is near impossible. For the foreseeable future, most fires will just be left alone to burn out.
I agree George. It's not practical to have multiple input and output ports and hope everything works perfect and hope the EV is in a place that the brine truck can reach. It's just impractical. And once that fire really starts up then no-one will ever be able to get close enough to hook up to the port.
They have to find a new battery that does not start with Li.....Pretty much have to reverse engineer the batteries they use in the UFO's. There's the solution.
You can build in a delay to simulate crew response but in reality this is likely to be very arbitrary. From Alarm to suited up on scene via wtf is going on may well see a fire spread to other vehicles before it can be contained. A better solution would be to have a dedicated EV deck that can tilt and dump the whole lot into the sea 😂
Have you been on a car ferry , they are enormous and vehicles are often tied down so they do not move and capsize the ship.
@@bascomnextion5639 you may notice the laugh 😂. Emoji
It was a joke
@@davidferry548it's not such a dumb idea, I thought the same thing but put the ev,s on an upper deck with doors that can be opened and the whole thing jettisoned, maybe even have a pallet under each vehicle or group of them, to make it easier.
I listened during science class and I'm giving myself 2 points.
1. Yes I know where the Faeroe Islands are on a map.
2. I guessed a fire port before it was described in this video.
Smug mode engaged.
Amazing, such a simple mixture to stop Thermal runaway 👍
Really interesting video on a brilliant solution on how to deal with thermal runaway in EV battery fires. And I totally agree with you. The car manufacturers are way behind the 8 ball with waya to deal with this tragic problem. A universally aproved direct port to the battery pack is the way forward! I damn well hope car manufacturers, regulators, first responders get together soon to sort this growing problem! Your video is the first and hopefully not last one on putting pressure on them to actually take action, to save peoples lives!
@daddylongjohn99 - Except that once you get more than two invested parties involved in any sort of standardisation legislation, the politics of Not Invented Here takes over and then follows a lifetime of wrangling to implement.
An informative video. Awesome. Your proposed idea of the inlet as part of the ADR is awesome, and on a ship could potentially be pre-plugged in with auto- detect runaway. It is potentially a much more addressable problem than an ICE fire if more sciencing money is dropped on this issue. Gotta love fishing.
yes thats not such a silly idea. it would cut the reponse dramatically it could mean that the vehicle is salvagable rather than a pile of scrap. also it would greatly reduce the the damage to other vehicles and the vessel.
This was very interesting to watch due to its simplicity. I have seen several new products from different companies that are and have been created to attack thermal runaway in lithium batteries. Some companies have even started to develop fire extinguishers that use a special mixture that attacks the thermal runaway issue that these batteries create. A simple search on the internet will show you the amount of research that is being done to target the problem.
Great video.
It’s great to see such cognitive recognition of the real truth of EV’s and battery tech.
The question now is, what will this recognition then cost the consumer? Once the cost of insurance, regular replacement of incredibly expensive parts, exclusion zones based around consumer safety, restrictions on repairs etc etc…
Will the utopian style subsidies be enough for lunacy to prevail long enough to remove established and well understood current transport in such a way that we can’t go back to what we trust?
I seriously doubt it!
Keep up the brilliant exposé John, love your work
Should be a MANDATED design rule for all EV battery packs to have such a flooding port . 1000% in agreement there JC. 👍
well i disagree 10,000%
Its the EV's Ford Pinto moment isn't it? Nice work J.C. on bringing the nordic method to your channel! In practice it could be a very simple connection, not unlike the lpg couplings on 1980s dual fuel vehicles...having said that...why not develop a sharp pointy hollow lance to pierce the electric heart of the EV whale and allow brine to pour through it and flood the cells...or is that too Scandivaian?
Not all EVs have the battery located in the same area.
Currently, Emergency Responders are typically using flip charts of popular EVs that show battery location(s).
Randomly spearing cars with a pointy lance seems less than optimal, when compared to a standardized port for water/brine.
@@BatCaveOz yes good point but I was assuming the responders would be using thermal imaging to identify the hot battery so could be dead on target
John is a brave man trying to explain heat capacity to an audience half filled with people named Bruce.
Muzz never gets it, either...
John you are the man. Maybe there is hope for the human race to solve the life events in our world.
and when not carrying EV's we can use the brine for pickled herring
The first thing is practicality.
It's fantastic for a ferry, not so good round here when we're (on average) 20mins from the call getting placed to us arriving.
Whatever we're going to do has to be achievable after that amount of time has elapsed and with 3000L of water, because thats all we carry.
We also cant be carrying brine around. We mostly deal with bushfire. Salted earth would also upset the general public I suspect.
Maybe you could do the salt thing the way we do foam with a concentrate we add as required, but to make that workable we'd need it to be going in at around a max of 5% of the total volume. More than that will require carrying around a heap more weight on trucks that are quite close to GVM already. I also suspect that the quantity of salt in that brine solution will be substantial. You certainly couldn't get anywhere near the salt content of seawater.
So no salt, no cooling it down, no fast response.
Perfect solution for their situation, but that's about it. It's not transferable.
Next thing is the claim of zero charge left in the battery. I'd want to see some compelling evidence of that, because it's quite a substantial claim.
Here's the thing, those batteries are designed to be sealed. Once they start to thermally decompose they will off gas through a vent (or several). Large quantities of hot gas coming out of the vent will make it rather difficult for brine to make its way in. Especially when it's being applied from the passenger compartment that those vents are almost certainly not going to be plumbed into for obvious reasons like HF. At least I'd sure hope not anyway.
So if they haven't actually managed to get it to zero charge, you've now got a bunch of cells in that battery that have been exposed to heat well beyond their design limits with a bunch of stranded charge. They heat up again and cause reignition. This is the very reason these cars tend to catch fire a number of times.
Regarding ports on batteries, its a great idea, but you need to guarantee zero charge at the end. You also neee to keep them secure enough that they can't be tampered with and still useable to firefighters.
Out current practice is to simply let it burn out. Take care of everything exposed, evacuate people etc. It cant catch fire again if its completely consumed already. Environmentally it's probably not great, but when you look at the equipment and water we have available, its the best solution.
I'd also suggest that they may be catching fire quite a lot. I don't know, I don't have the statistics, but you'd want to look at them on a per 1M basis when comparing them with ICE vehicles. You would also need to look at those numbers in the context of what caused them. For example, arson, crash, defect in manufacturing or servicing and so on.
It may just be a consequence of how often they're reported on in the media compared to ICE fires, but it certainly seems like they catch fire regularly.
On my brigade's pumper we carry a lance that we ram through a vehicle bonnet( so we don't open the hood and give the fire a boost of air)that is also connected to hose line that then floods engine via inserted lance, but this would be impractical for EVs
We are looking caravans that have Lithium battery's like Lithium Iron Phosphate battery what risk are these batteries John can you help pls?
People put lifepo4 in their engine bays of 4wds. One of the harshest environments you could conceivably put them in (heat being the main concern)
There are brands such as itech and Dcs that warrant them either in the bay or even as a cranking starting battery.
There have been multi year reviews, and I am yet to find one that has started a fire. The only issues I’ve seen is battery degradation due to heat, then again some those people were crossing the Simpson.
As such when my aux battery died and leaked acid everywhere , I upgraded to under bonnet lithium and have been running for a year. The capacity is still above the rated capacity, I did take the extra effort to make an embossed Ali heat shield and not cross a desert.
I wouldn’t be concerned in a caravan at all.
A LiFePO4 battery has a critical (run away) temperature of 270ºC as opposed to the 210ºC for the (LiNiMnCoO2) NMC type batteries used in vehicles. They also have less internal resistance, so a high current (charge or discharge) is less likely to heat them up.
So therefore it's obvious, if your EV catches on fire you need to drive it or push it off a pier.
I was unsuccessful in trying to find their video online which I found concerning because public awareness to this solution for fighting EV battery fires is so important. I emailed the company to suggest they post a shareable link of the video on their website to facilitate the dissemination of this approach among the general public with the hope of generating political pressure to enact regulations to force EV battery makers to include this fire suppression technology in their batteries.
Your suggestion about building in this fire suppression system in all batteries makes even more sense when you consider the perils inherent in large scale grid storage batteries, residential storage batteries and batteries in commercial vehicles with very large batteries.
Awesome work dude!!!
Shipping container with the top cut off, wet sand on the bottom, put the burning EV in the container (with a fork truck?) then fill with wet sand. A fire department did this in the states somewhere with great outcome of success!
Who’s with me for a trash can cam
I am 👋
A couple of points (sorry if someone has already mentioned them) . Brine on a battery will generate a cloud of Chlorine gas. Secondly, if the car is occupied in a crash situation, the brine at -19C will cause frostbite and hypothermia. On the plus side it may be better to be gassed and/or frozen to death rather than incinerated.
this is why a battery-box-brine-ports would be a good thing.
the gases can be dealt with with ventilation. also the overhead water deluge system will deal with most of the chlorine gas anyway and actually that is how gas leaks with chlorine and ammonia are dealt with is by water fogging basically you make chlorinated water or ammonia water. years ago they had a ammonia leak where dad used to work a dick-head hit a 4 inch ammonia main with a forklift mast and cracked it at a joint. the fire brigade set up water fog nozzles and drenched the whole area.
if you watched the video all the firefighters were in full scba and turnout gear.
@@chrisforgan731 And I assume you expect the trapped occupants of the car to have had the forethought to wear suitable gas masks/respirators and waterproof insulated suits to protect them from the super-chilled brine.
@@richardturton6900 most ferries the passengers are not in the vehicle spaces, the deck hands and wharfies have loaded the vehicles. the passengers are upstairs on the passenger deck. and if you were in the vehicle when it cuaght fire if you didnt get out straight away then it would already be too late for you as the smoke and heat would have already killed you.
in a vehicle crash well either you escaped were assisted by good samaritans or the fire service got you out or your dead already.
potential chlorine gas from cooling brine is least of the occupant's problems. Battery fires generate a massive cloud of other TOXIC gasses. If you ever see an EV battery fire, make sure to get up wind.
That is also why EV battery fires in enclosed parking garages are so dangerous. Especially underground parking that has limited ventilation. The toxic gasses can kill you long before the heat/fire does!
To your friend TJ: At airports, they use a pump truck that has a "stinger" on top. The stinger hydraulically extends over and in front of the pump truck, and PENETRATES the fuesalauge of the airliner, to spray water inside it.
In the same way, you could slide a pallet, on hydraulic feet, with spikes on top. Raise the pallet, and the spikes penetrate the battery tray. Then inject the cold brine, from below. It isn't ideal, but could still pump substantial brine right into the battery pack, and be light enough for two men to deploy.
Yes. Great to hear of these techniques being promulgated.
One less EV is always good ! Eventually they will do that to themselves.
London Fire Brigade looked in to this and said no. The accuracy of the pole is key and it can make it worse if it breaks in to another cell. They also said that high voltage fuses need to be in the same position on all cars as currently every make is different as it is important to disconnect them.
Stunningly good stuff as always J. Proud to say I came up with the mandated built in brine flooding port as soon as you asked the question! Cue smug feeling all over and 633 squadron playing in the background while we fade to black. 😄 Cheers 👍👍👍 Won't ever happen of course 🙄
I’m an American and love this channel! You tell it like it is and with some humor. Love it!
If in theory a quick connect is added to all EV's for brine, it would then be possible to have the hoses already connected to the vehicle when on a ship or in a carpark building.
This way the fire could be contained without any firefighter having to go near the vehicle.
It could even be mandated that all charging stations have the connection and the EV will not charge without it connected, this includes in home chargers.
thx. pls keep up working this (evs fires) problem.
Thank you TJ as well. First video I ever watched so many times.
You could have an undissolved brine pack on the other side of said proposed suppression circuit hose connection on the EV. So only water would be required to be pumped into the EV suppression port.
As a marine engineer on BP Tankers the only thing we had to put out a fire on the ship carrying 250000 tons of crude oil was seawater. We did have CO2 smothering system to help put out a fire in the engine room but CO2 is a lot easier to carry in large quantities
I use Lipo's for flying RC planes. Lipo stands for Lithium-polymer battery. A thermal runaway happens with these batteries as well. That's why we take several precautionary steps to make sure this doesn't happen in use, storage, or when tossed. One way that suggested to neutralize these batteries before discarding them is to make sure the neg & pos wire ends are exposed as much as possible and soak them over night in salt water, brine, before tossing them. The whole batter without any covers, in bags/ packaging, tape on the wires ends have to be removed. The pos & neg wire ends have to be completely exposed, any covers, insulation, tape, etc like EV car battery packs have needs to be removed for best results.. I've done this several times over many years and it does work IF you leave the batteries under saltwater for 24 hours or more. And IF I do several batteries at the same time the saltwater, brine, effectiveness diminishes the more batteries I put in the container; I don't know why, I just know it does. When there's too many batteries I have to make a fresh brine solution and repeat to make sure there's no voltage reading when done. I'm no scientist I just know this is what happens and I can still get a voltage reading on some of the batteries even after 24 hours of submerging them, and these are not as lethal as the batteries in EV's. I'm very skeptical about this method. I'm sure it's better then just water, but I still would not trust the car is completely safe after this method. In my, opinion there's nothing wrong with EV vehicles, scientist just don't have the proper power source for the vehicles yet. And hundreds or thousands of AA batteries are not a proper power source. Until one is invented I will never buy an EV...too dangerous !
For those sans the connection port, to keep the centre of mass low on cars and the like on EVs the battery pack is usually a flat pack that span the area between the wheels, so something like a spike mat that you toss under the car and it extends/explodes some hollow spikes into the battery, could perhaps work? A bit specific and it would not work on home EV conversions that tend to put the batteries under the bonnet, but a start perhaps?
Or maybe even explosive lances guided by thermal camera? But that might be a bit too fiddly and expensive.
Nice one dave, we used to live round there, lots of memories, live in the iom now.. cheers love your videos.
I agree with you about the battery flooding firefighter access port addition to all EV cars. It can be next to the charging port. It can even have a flammable gases sensor in the cap to trigger alarms and allow it to be easily changed if it fails.
I wish you taught me science at school. Many classmates would have been offended and parents complained but you explain in a practical application way. I'm in my 40s by the way.
Apart from the flooding port, you also need a rupture disc to let the air out and keep containment intact.
I volunteer any points I may have from having NOT sent you any of my thoughts on the subject.
And I like your idea about a standardized port on all EVs. That question about which universe we'd rather live in was epic!
EV number plates could have easily visible lightening bolts on the side of them so emergency vehicles of all sorts know its an EV. The front and rear bumpers could have a quick removal plate, like those on cars where the tow ball would be mounted and allow fire fighters to pull it away and connect their hoses. A pressure release valve in the EV battery would blow open under pressure allowing the brine to flow from one side of the battery to the other cooling and discharging the battery bank. A temp sensor in the battery bank would trip when a critical temp is reached and cause an alarm to sound. Something similar to this would be easy to implement and not cost all that much!
@AutoExpertJohnGiveaway Fake, stay away everyone!
Lol
Here's a good joke one I heard someone say on my way out on a train the other day. "Oh those EV batteries generate their own oxygen when they burn so why don't they use a fan to suck it out before it can make the battery burn?" "Then we could save it and compress it into a metal cylinder". LOL
Well done to Scansi Offshore for coming up with this brilliant idea. It’s a wonderfully practical and elegant solution. Looking at their website they’re all over safe sea transportation. Let’s hope it’s employed globally and your idea John of a universal connection to the battery itself becomes standard fitment on all EVs. Mainstream news media are clearly too interested in the latest celebrity scandal than broadcasting something as important as a breakthrough like this.
Great idea there John....
Thanks Mate
Great video. Great solution proposed. Thanks.