The Whale: Hope or Obsessive Delusion?
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2024
- Darren Aronofsky is no stranger to ripping my heart out, tossing it of a 40-story building, and then running over it with a tour bus being driven by Godzilla. In The Whale, he repeats this process once again, to my infinite masochistic glee, but here at least, the final message we are left with is one of hope and forgiveness. However, not all of the themes that Aronofsky and the film’s screenwriter, Samuel D Hunter, tackle in this movie are positive (duh).
In this video essay, I’ll be diving into this Brendan Fraser-led masterpiece and suggesting a grimmer, bleaker, more soul-crushing interpretation of the movie’s events, particularly in regards to its conclusion, and offering an alternate take that analyzes and interprets the films’ many themes and messages in a far less hopeful light than what Aronofsky and Hunter intended. Emotional trauma incoming.
#TheWhale #BrendanFraser #videoessay
Chapters:
00:00 Darren Aronofsky & Emotional Trauma
01:16 The Whale’s Main Themes
07:56 An Alternate Interpretation
10:06 Final Thoughts
10:36 Thank You
Sources:
All footage of the movie from its trailers and the Oscars’ Scene at the Academy:
• SCENE AT THE ACADEMY: ...
Excerpts from Samuel D. Hunter's "The Whale" (the play):
• Excerpts from Samuel D...
Darren Aronofsky Reveals How He Cast Brendan Fraser for The Whale (Extended) | The Tonight Show
• Darren Aronofsky Revea...
Sadie Sink & Darren Aronofsky Break Down 'The Whale' Scene | Vanity Fair
• Sadie Sink & Darren Ar...
Inside The Making Of "Mother!" (HBO)
• Inside The Making Of "...
Black Swan: Director Darren Aronofsky Takes You Behind the Scenes
• Black Swan: Director D...
Moby Dick (1956) Original Trailer [FHD]
• Moby Dick (1956) Origi...
In a town in Idaho, Charlie, a reclusive and unhealthy English teacher, hides out in his flat and eats his way to death. He is desperate to reconnect with his teenage daughter for a last chance at redemption.
The Whale is a 2022 American psychological drama film directed by Darren Aronofsky and written by Samuel D. Hunter, based on his 2012 play of the same name. It stars Brendan Fraser, Sadie Sink, Hong Chau, Ty Simpkins, and Samantha Morton. In the film, a reclusive English teacher with morbid obesity tries to restore his relationship with his teenage daughter.
This video falls under Fair Use, as per the US Copyright Act. Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances. Section 107 of the Copyright Act provides the statutory framework for determining whether something is a fair use and identifies certain types of uses-such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research-as examples of activities that may qualify as fair use. 
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Another great detail lies in why Charlie is disgusting to the audience. Ellie states, "You'd be disgusting even if you weren't this fat." It's not the weight itself but his refusal to grow, hence why every eating scene is disturbing.
Absolutely!
I found him irritating. I liked him, but he made me suffer.
If I were Liz, I'd abandon and leave him alone.
It's not fair that he should make her endure all that grief all over again.
I get he's depressed, but every chance he gets to find help, he turns it down.
He chose to kill himself and that's what hurt the most.
It's not fair that if I were his friend, he'd do that to me.
I thought she was referring to him being queer.
"his refusal to grow" - Can you rephrase that? 😅
Did anyone else notice that the pizza guy was a metaphor for Death? Meaning the grim reaper in this case. He said he's "been coming by for a while now," and only towards the very end does he introduce himself, asking questions like "are you sure you're ok?"
The last time we see the pizza guy, they lock eyes, indicating that Charlie is staring death in the face.
I think that's why this movie has so many interpretations - many of the scenes are double entendres that work just fine if you look at them at face value, but provide a deeper meaning if you question it.
Your friend goes a step further by claiming some scenes are fantasized, but I'm not sure that's the intention exactly. It seems as if there's meant to be how WE see a scene, and how the characters see a scene. The pizza guy scenes for example - because of Charlie's "toxic positivity," he greets death as an optimist because that's what he is, to the extent that they reach a first-name basis. He doesn't see him as Death because he thinks people are amazing. A different man may have told the pizza guy to get lost, perhaps even preventing death, but Charlie was blinded by his own perspective.
So essentially, maybe it's not we who interpret the movie differently, it's the characters, but our interpretations vary depending on whether or not we align with those characters' interpretations throughout.
Interesting movie!
Fascinating analysis. Thanks for sharing!
Brilliant take. I was left wondering how that pizza guy character fit in the whole movie.
Whoa, i really like this idea. Thank you for sharing!
The Whale is extremely complicated. On one hand, you're hoping Charlie can improve, but all of what has happened is his fault. It asks the question of how much care you can give a person who seemingly only at the last minute wants to make amends with everyone he's hurt
Yeah, it's incredibly underrated. Very deep and open to interpretation (which you would expect from an adaptation of a play). Just not good enough to be one of the ten "best picture" nominees. What a joke!
Yeah; really gave me a ton to think about, personally.
I don't believe in free will (hard deteminism) and therefore I do not think that it is his fault nor anyone elses, it's evolution all the way. All our thoughts are determined by genes and environmental factors, you do not control what or how you think.
This is similar to BoJack asking forgiveness to Herb Kazzaz before Herb dies, and Herb says "I'm not gonna give you closure. You don't get that. You have to live with the shitty thing you did for the rest of your life. You have to know that it's never, ever going to be okay!"
@@remoteflying Agreed, like it's not Ellie's responsibility to forgive him. But ultimately I think the end made their relationship improve from 'estranged' to 'it's complicated'
I have such a strong perspective on that film, and I just can’t believe no one can see the way I do.
The movie is called The Whale. To me this is not just a “reference” to Moby Dick, but actually a “RETELLING” of it.
So… here it goes.
Ellie is Ahab.
Charlie’s choices has caused immeasurable psychology trauma on her.
So she is obsessed with grudge, and hatred toward all mankind, particularly Charlie.
Charlie’s choices and mistakes made him punish himself, transforming him into the representation of a white Whale.
Ellie’s text points out that the Whale was just a being without conscience and guilt for his actions.
Charlie is so positive and naive that he really thinks that abandoning his family was forgiveable, because he was in love. Like a force of nature destroying the lives of innocent people around him.
An interesting point is that Charlie has a recollection of being with his family AT THE BEACH. With tree branches bleeding his legs. Am I the only one that sees the image of wooden harpoons stabbing an Whale’s tail?
Ellie, on the other hand says “I never forget anything”. That means that she is smart, and that she has photographic memory. But also that she remembers everything, so SHE CANT FORGIVE. Like Ahab, destroying his own life and of others on his grudge against the White Whale that hurt him inadvertently.
Ellie says to his face “why don’t you die already”. In her essay, she points out that Ahab believes that killing the Whale would make the pain and hatred stop. But it won’t.
So, in the ending, Charlie is dying. Ellie is there. It is the final confrontation. And she has the opportunity of letting him die. And having her revenge. Holding on to the grudge, and destroying her live, and that of everyone around her.
But, in the end, she chooses to SAVE Charlie, and read to him.
Ahab has forgiven the Whale.
Ellie let the hatred go. She finally let herself forgive and forget.
The Whale, Charlie, is set free. And she can live free of the grudge too.
That’s why she calls her daddy. That is why he can finally walk, and go away.
So. That’s it.
That’s exactly what I thought too. I felt like it was a very obvious connection.
Wow! That is great! 👏
before reading this i sense "Moby dick" has some connection but i cannot tell how they fit to the story, with your in depth and well written explaination solved my puzzle.
Thank you for sharing your in-depth analysis. That does seem to be the main perspective the movie presents, for the most part, so I don't think you're far off the mark; I interpreted as mostly the same, too!
Though this doesn't change the fact that you could take this interpretation and layer it with the delusion interpretation as well. In that way, Ahab (Ellie) would have never forgiven Moby Dick, as Ahab never did in the book, and Charlie's desire for forgiveness would have lead to him imagining that he'd been given that forgiveness. Charlie WANTS Ellie to let go of the grudge; he wants her NOT to be Ahab, and not simply because that would mean she hates him, but because he doesn't want her to be consumed by grief, vengeance, and anger either.
@@Zoogler Man, I think you cracked it. Especially on the aspect of Charlie's forgiveness. Yeah, it didn't sit right with me how he was being portrayed as a sympathetic hero. This way explains it best.
I had a breakdown after this movie. I think it shows how not taking care of yourself can hurt everyone around you.
Oh yes, that can be torment. Especially if you are particularly devoted to taking care of you as much as you can, while your environment goes the other way with devotion.
In The Whale, we could see his obesity as a materialization of that energy flow. He takes in, more and more. After all, this is a common psychology of obesity: The feeling of not having enough and then compensating through other means. So there is also an energetic component of that, when such a person keeps taking away 'life force' from others to destroy it internally, converting it into more pain. This is also the psychology of greedy oligarchs. They have attained success through ruthlessness, as a fortress wall to shield the inner demon against the cure.
I like to think that Charlie's obsession with Ellie being a good person stems from the fact that he thinks that she is the only good thing he did in his life he said so himself in the movie so if she is not good that means that he did nothing that all his life is nothing
Okay this comment kinda fucked me up and made me realize how much more sensible and interesting a darker interpretation of the movie is.
Your comment would mean that Charlie's whole outlook comes not from toxic positivity, but a somewhat self-absorbed obsession with redemption. However, the movie is presenting Charlie's outlook as a kind of mirror of how he wishes to see his daughter. The movie makes you want to say that, in a roundabout way, Charlie's daughter made him a better person. However, that would be doing to Charlie the same thing that Charlie does to Ellie. We are directly put into Charlie's shoes through this, which makes the connection and empathy with him much deeper for the audience. Yet, his behaviour sort of tells us to stay distant from him.
Crazy thing is, this IS a belief that real people have.
I don’t have kids, but my best friend has a son that she gave up for adoption (which was definitely best decision for all involved, his new parents are the most wonderful loving people).
When she’s deep in depression experiencing serious self loathing, I’ve absolutely heard her say “it’s ok though, I gave birth to (son), and he’s gonna cure cancer or something! So that’s what I gave to the world.”
On one hand, it’s sweet because she loves her son and absolutely believes he is capable of great things:) but at the same time, children shouldn’t be born with a job. It isn’t his job to make her life meaningful, it’s his job to live a normal human life with both ups and downs. He doesn’t have to cure cancer to be valuable, and she isn’t valuable because she had him. She has worth in her own right.
One thing I did feel was really authentic in The Whale was that feeling of not being enough. That feeling is so real and so human and almost all of us know what that feeling feels like.
@@OpalLeigh I was gonna snap at you, but yeah, whole-heartedly agree.
Yeah, I don't feel like I am enough and that sends me down rabbit holes.
I keep repeating to myself that I'm already enough, but what if I'm wrong? I guess then that therein lies the power of faith.
@@Winter-Alpha-Omega Not sure what was motivating you to “snap” at me, I was just sharing an experience. But yeah, I definitely know that feeling too 😔 and it’s funny because you can see it with either people! I absolutely know her, and my other friends who are hard on themselves make this world a better place to live in:) but with ourselves, we have so much doubt. And it’s even worse when you’re in a dark place emotionally 🥺
@@OpalLeigh I said I was gonna snap at you because countless times, I've seen annoying guys or gals in the internet looking down on fathers and mums, which irritates and irks me.
I thought your comment was going to be like "Hahaha, so stupid, she thinks her son is the best thing she's ever created. Gurl, you need a better self-esteem 😸💩" but your comment about a child's value not being tied to becoming president or curing cancer and about her self-worth needing to lie within herself? I agree.
Basically, I thought you were going to sh¡t on your friend, but I was wrong. You empathised with her and have a well-rounded outlook on whatever her situation is.
So no worries, my mistake.
In 2011, I received a phone call from my estranged father. He had woken me up, which pissed me off, and his voice was slurred. I assumed he was drunk, as had been an occasional habit of his. He told me had actually just had a stroke, and had been diagnosed with motor neurons disease, just like his mother. Not really sure how to handle the situation, I hung up on him. The last words I ever said to him were, "Go fuck yourself."
He died two years later. I had never spoken to him again. I was too stubborn and cowardly to apologise, half convinced that this was what I wanted, the other half convinced that there would always be time to make things right. I never did, in the end.
My father died alone and helpless, trapped in his own body. And it was all because he woke me up after a late night. Some things you can take back. Some things you can undo. But you can never undo leaving it too late, and it's something I can never, ever forgive myself for.
I think I agree with your friend.
Bruh I wanna cry with you. Sometimes we make mistakes, and just have to live with them. I made plenty with my dad before he died a year ago.
I hope you can learn to accept it and not blame yourself, like I often do.
It's hard to really say anything to this. I'm sorry for your loss.
Don't feel too bad he probably only needed you because he was getting sick and wanted a nurse
@@Reshme77That doesn't matter, what was said was unnecessarily hurtful.
Most problems in life can be solved by waiting. Once someone is dead, you don't NEED to make it right any more. The problem is gone. The important thing is to learn from how that situation made you feel. Next time something similar comes around, make it right.
I can’t remember the last time I cried so hard while watching a movie.
During the entire 2h I just felt bad for Charlie. I felt that no one was actually helping him but only feeding their own obsession and disguising it as help.
Totally feel ya; I was bawling. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I see the positive side of the film, Charlie found and achieved something he obsessed with, a goal he was willing to die for. The story could be the same Charlie lived without purpose and ate to his death in that apartment.
While they all may have been feeding their own obsessions, Charlie was the worst of them. He completely disregarded everyone else to fit his own ideals. Left his family, uses his friend who yes enables him, but he takes clear advantage of her kindness and her own wish for him to try to take care of himself better. His own obsession to destroy his own life and somehow find redemption through his daughter's realization into who he thinks she is/should be... just... there's just no redemption for him. All of their lives are fked up because of his bullshit. Even his death doesn't clear the damage he's done to the rest.
@@Justitia_Nomen It's hard to sympathize with someone so self destructive but I found it important to remember he's in a disease state--mentally ill. Charlie's not a great person for doing this to himself and those who cared about him and sadly it seems his moments of clarity came too late. It's interesting to notice the complete dysfunction of everyone in this movie. The aftermath would have been brutal and ultimately Charlie would be the cautionary tale for the survivors because he committed suicide.
Its truly brilliant that the movie accomplishes all of this with only a single Frame for 2 hours. Bravo, Aronofsky!
You're hilarious
Brendan Fraser was easily the best part of this movie. The story was alright, but I hope that he wins the Best Actor Oscar, since he's made a fine come back.
Good news he won one! 🥰
The alternate take makes it much more depressing, yet also very probable in hindsight. To me, it felt like the ending explained why Ellie kept coming back. Because she actually cared about Charlie and couldn't hold her grudge in the end, let go, and opened her heart to her father (much like his heart was open due to excessive eating). It's a more hopeful approach, but I'll be sticking to it so I don't lose faith in humanity. Great job at picking the movie's theme!
Yes, exactly, as far as Ellie! Seems like it's the writers' intent, too, so I'll be suspending disbelief and discarding my penchant for realism in order to sustain my faith in humanity as well.
Thanks for commenting, man!
@@failureoncommand thank you for the video!
@@failureoncommand Is it possible that Ellie was reading to Charlie whilst he was dying but his walk was the delusion. Up to Ellie opening the door despite her anger she did listen to Charlie's regretful apology, she did ask he go to the hospital and when she went to go to the door maybe she wanted to leave because she was scared to watch her dad die which many people do. Then she changed her mind and read during which point Charlie experienced a delusion where he walked. The director said to the actress (in that interview you took a piece from in the video) who played Ellie that she had good reasons for hating Charlie, Charlies had been a very selfish father but Charlie does change Ellie in the end. I believe whether Charlie walking was a delusion or real, Ellie was reading to him and she got closure which may have reversed some of her cruel traits.
@@failureoncommand Ellie kept coming back because she wanted ammunition for revenge against Charlie, hence posting the photos and horrible slurs online. She was hurting her whole life after he left the family and blamed him for all of it.
She was totally Ahab wanting revenge against the Whale.
At the end, I think she actually left and the reading of the essay was Charlies normal hopeful optimism and positivity of what he wanted to hear as he died.
Eliie's revenge was empty as Ahab's story was. And we are left seeing the story from the Whale's innocent naive perspective who thinks he did no wrong but just be himself, and in the case of the man, just love the way he wanted to.
I like to think the ending was real, and I take note of the fact that Charlie could only walk up to Ellie, they didn't hug or otherwise touch. I think that symbolizes your friend's sentiment that there are some things that cannot be rectified and that once broken, there will always be cracks. But the light and Ellie's smile show that even if the damage is irreparable, an effort to make things right is still admirable.
Your friend's interpretation is blowing my mind. It did look so perfect and artificial compared to the previous bleak and real scenes. I loved the analysis of the movie's themes and I hope the channel keeps growing!
It was very uncomfortable watching the movie at times and my heart did feel like it were being punched...
Thanks for the kind words, man. That interpretation really caught me off guard too. Good stuff.
Part of me feels that Charlie was in constant denial of Ellie's evilness, hence the reason why he kept saying that she was an amazing daughter, despite the fact that she had explicitly told him to die, as well as her other negative traits. Also by the end of the film, when Charlie says that she was trying to help Thomas, the way he sounded initially felt more like doubt and insistence rather than confidence, because it's very likely Ellie send those pictures and audio to Thomas' family and church just to hurt him, but it backfired.
He couldn't accept that his daughter had become this bitter and resentful, so he tried to picture her as the 'amazing' little girl he left behind. He wanted to die knowing that his daughter was amazing and turned to his ultra positive attitude that he already had as a way of coping. This could also match with the alternative interpretation where the whole ending was just Charlie's dying imagination, which means Ellie just left and never read him the poem, while his corpse laid alone in the couch.
That's my interpretation of Charlie's annoying positivity. (I'll have to agree with his wife on this one lol) I get that Ellie was hurt and she had every right to be angry at him. However, all the things she did throughout the film, including the part where she drugs with with ambien, are honestly more than just resentment. Charlie couldn't see that sadly.
Exactly. Charlie, in a sense, could not cope with the reality that the amount of pain his departure had inflicted upon Ellie had made her truly cruel. He didn't want to die believing he made such a mistake.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Thought to myself, "How ironic, his daughter did something out of meanness that maybe saved that kid while Charlie did something, out of love, that maybe caused his lover to take his own life."
Ellie thinks that Charlie’s death will solve all her problems because her entire life she has been “wounded” by him (like Ahab) and she wants revenge; she has, no doubt, been told by her mother for the last 8 years what a horrible man Charlie is and that her life is better off without him.
Charlie thinks that reconnecting with Ellie will “save” him because of the immense guilt and shame he feels for his life choices up to this point. It’s his last ditch effort at redemption, his only chance to die knowing that he did “one thing right with (his) life”.
They each serve as the “white whale” for the other, but as we know, catching the white whale doesn’t actually save anyone or change what’s already transpired. It’s a heartbreakingly beautiful tragedy and it explores, in disturbing detail, some of the most difficult aspects of the human experience.
My interpretation of the ending is that he died in the chair, (mainly because of how there was no interaction between him and his daughter when he was standing next to her) walking towards his daughter was part of walking towards heaven and that’s why he floated up at the end.
She took steps towards him as he did her, showing a "meeting in the middle". That would indicate he stood, took his steps and likely died of a heart attack from the strain of doing so.
Showing he never gave up on her like she was raised to believe he did and that she really did want a relationship with him.
I am an artist (painter), I am always aware of the different ways people interpret my art. I do not intervene in their summations... In fact I find it interesting.
I am also a guy who has suffered with weight issues throughout my life.
The attitudes from people, in regards to this issue, are never reassuring or pleasant.
The alienation and sorrow this has bought me, over the years, is a tough row to hoe.
Some people might wonder as to why I would watch a movie about a subject that haunts me.
Maybe I was just looking for answers.
The only answer is healing the issues that caused the weight gain and then losing the weight.
Anybody who has struggled with BED cannot help but be deeply affected by this very raw and unfiltered account of how it kills you slowly.
Great video. I don’t think Ellie is evil or that Charlie’s faith in her was a form or toxic positivity. Of course she was cruel to the father who left her. Anyone teenager would be but that doesn’t mean she is beyond hope and I think that’s where Charlie was coming from. Really enjoyed the film and I love hearing your take on the themes.
Thank you so much for the kind words, and for sharing your thoughts! Yeah, as a teenager, she's definitely too young to be perma-judged as evil, but I suppose that's a matter of opinion for some people.
Every character in this film had a reasonable logic except for charlie. I honestly cant accept anything he said.
Ellie’s cruelty was cartoonish. Probably the most unbelievable part of the film.
@@mupicap7927 the film makes you do to Charlie what Charlie does to Ellie; lie to yourself and say that he's really a good person despite what is right in front of you
@@MelGibsonFan I feel that lol
I feel like I don’t hear often how I viewed the ending and I was curious if it makes sense to anyone else, when he made the choice to stand an walk for his daughter, he may not have experienced death in a palpable way but a spiritual death in which his old self died making room for a new life of losing weight and family, his own personal heaven, a more optimistic take I guess
That's a beautiful interpretation, too. Thank you for sharing!
I agree that the end is a death delusion, I felt that was kind of obvious. But then I kind of took it another step and I think that the whole thing is a delusion, as the film starts off with him choking.
The whole story is about Charlie getting closure with important people in his life. Suddenly he has Ellie reappear, his wife reappear, and what feels like a surrogate for Alan in Thomas. He sees Elie help Thomas reconcile with his family (which Alan didn't do). He also confesses his money situation with Liz. Then he finally resolves with Ellie his obsession with her essay on Moby Dick. Everything is conveniently tied up in some form before he stands and goes into the light.
And actually I think this is even more tragic, since none of this actually happened, and the pain for his ex, his daughter, and Liz is still out there.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Definitely; if you interpret the movie as a delusion, there are multiple points where you could consider Charlie to have died and the pre-death hallucination to have begun, and your interpretation is reflective of that. Valid, but super tragic. 10/10
I don’t see a reason to follow the same theories over and over. “This character was dead the whole time” kind of thing has gotten old. It’s the same case with “actually it was a hallucination.”
It's a beautiful exploration of shame, grief and loss. I'm saddened that some people only saw it as "shitting on religion" due to component of religious shame and guilt that heavily contributed to Alan's suicide. It's a raw portrayal of how unwilling to reflect on our decisions impacts on other people's lives we can become when focusing on our own happiness. Main character syndrome always existed - lack of emotional maturity, self reflection and accountability is a poison that easily spreads through.
this movie hits close to home in many ways which has made me hesitant to watch it, but I feel grateful that there is a film now that finally sheds light on all of the themes that I and im sure many others have lived through.
Gosh I love this intepretation!
I’m intrigued by both interpretations! As you highlighted Darren Aronofsky is a masterful storyteller brilliantly able to subtlety weave emotions into events that seem separate but are actually interconnected with a connection, in this case “Obsession”. The best films imo are those that can’t be definitively categorized into any one interpretation. I’m reminded of Paul Verhoeven’s Total Recall because it’s still debated over three decades later whether it was all a fantasy or not. Excellent Analysis as always! 👏 Thank You!
Thanks a dozen, Colin! Always happy to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Man, Aronofsky is a badass. This theme of obsession is prevalent in most of his other works, too, so it would make a lot of sense for it to show up here. I can barely recall (pun intended) Total Recall, but maybe I should give it a watch sometime soon.
Another phenomenal breakdown. I loved this movie it had me crying something crazy in the theater. Your points obsession really puts in focus the themes of the film!
Thanks for commenting, man! SAME, but I'm glad I watched this in the privacy of my own home, cause goddamn I was CRYING.
@@failureoncommand had someone come up to me while I was omw home and asked me if I was okay, lol
I wish they had left the “I need to know I did one thing right with my life” scene out of the trailer because if that bit had caught me off guard, I would’ve UGLY SOBBED. The part that got me the most is the scene where Charlie finally reveals himself to his students and says “…this course doesn’t matter, college doesn’t matter. These honest things you wrote? They matter.” I broke down immediately.
@@realnuisance I agree with the trailer revealing a powerful moment they shouldn't and I was so sad at he kids' reactions once he revealed himself.
great video! the interpretation of your friend is really interesting, and i think what we should remember from this movie is "all of our actions have consequences on our lives" (which can leads too toxic relationships in the case of the movie) but also that love is the most valuable thing in life. The most important and meaningfull thing in this world, represented in the movie by the quot "people are incapable of not caring".
Thank you, and thanks for sharing your beautiful thoughts!
I'm toxic positivist, so... I don't agree with you all, his daughter is amazing and kind, she was trying to help Thomas, and in the end Ellie forgives her father and Charlie now can rest in piece.
P.s. but now seriously. I work 6 years as a teacher and I knew one girl like Ellie, her father left the family too. She also acted "evil". I'm managed to establish connection with her and find out that she is a good person in heart, if you now how to talk with her. But she almost always was mean to other people, it's like a defensive mechanism. When she turned 17 things got better, but this things never go away fully on their own. So I'd like to believe that Charlie managed to connect with his daughter, that Ellie forgives him and she now can move on with her life free of this past trauma.
I really believe Ellie helped Thomas. I think she understands that his parents wanted him back and that they don't turn their back on him because of couple of thousands of dollars. She did the good thing in her own way - with brutal honesty. She thinks that Thomas is a hypocrite so she "helped" him reveal the truth to a church and to his parents.
In the end, the last couple of years was hard. And I think we all deserve a good ending about kindness, hope and forgiveness.
P.s.s. if you wonder my bad grammar, that's because english is not my native language
Well put.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and that wonderful story. I feel you, man. We all need us a dose of positivity. I interpreted the movie the same way, suspending my disbelief and accepting it as a hopeful ending because, ya know, sometimes you just want a hopeful ending. However, my friend's perspective, which I detail in the video, is an interesting way of looking at things, even if it is much grimmer.
As someone who was very heavy when i was younger but lost most of the weight or turned it into muscle in after highschool, i cant bring myself to watch this movie. just the clips of charlie sitting in his chair bring me more dread and sorrow than i can imagine. I was heavy enough to have it effect my health if i stayed that big or got heavier. Charlie is my biggest fear because I could have been him. The amount of sadness the clips of him looking sorrowful bring me cant be described. This movie speaks to me so much and i havent even watched it. I have no doubt it would fuck me up for a while
As someone else who was afraid to watch this movie due to weight sensitivity, I'd say it's worth it.
I never would have watched it if my friend hadn't just clicked on it while we were scrolling through a streaming service, and I didn't feel like I had a "good excuse" to be nervous about watching it, but I'm glad he did.
There are definitely thought patterns that Charlie has which I kind of flinched to identify with, even though I do my best not to follow through. But his character was genuinely so sympathetic that I think I actually wound up sort of... Forgiving myself? In a very productive way?
Like, yes, craving food when you're upset isn't healthy, the same way craving alcohol when you're upset isn't healthy. Following through on those cravings can absolutely be a form of self harm. But just having them? That's okay. That's nothing to be sorry for.
A person who is hurting will naturally reach out to be soothed, and food IS soothing. Better outlets exist, of course. Getting a hug, listening to music, being silly with a friend, those are healthier choices. And if those are the ones I make, then it doesn't matter that I wanted the unhealthy choice.
That's Charlie's true downfall, I think. He sees no other form of comfort after Alan dies. Not even Liz is enough to soothe the pain. But he never craves food when Ellie is in the room - he doesn't even finish the small sandwich she made him.
My wife didn't watch it but when I was rewatching the ending she questioned if that was really happening. Because I watched the film and was so invested in the characters I want that ending to really be that way. But hearing this a theory.... I'm just going to tell myself no this is all real!
I would also be more in line to believe it's not positivity, but his obsession with the truth which gives Charlie his attitude. Notice, every single other time he interreacts with someone in this movie he's brutally honest. Alan's sister when discussing his health and eating (she's also the only one he "lets" see him) who is the only other brutally honest person in this flick even if she sugar-coats his situation sometimes. He's straight up tells missionary boy he's wasting his time, same as when he pursues the truth of the boy's feelings about him and his situation. He tells his daughter that he did pay for extras (and not lying for the mother's sake) and his ex how he felt about pretty much everything.
I wrote a comment about how I think the daughter is misinterpreted in this movie, but to him she is amazing. To him, she's the only person since Alan that's ever been completely honest, both about her feelings to him and what she thinks about the world. A trait he became obsessed with as his life fell apart and one he would see more and more rarely as his health declined and people would try and be 'nice' to him. He pretty much outlined in his last class when he spoke about rewrites leaving their voices untrue, with the only real disgust he saw outside himself and eating habits. That's important with his character because for most of his life he couldn't even be honest about being gay and the only time his disgust was comparable to others was when he was discussing honesty. Keep in mind, dishonesty was his real "monster" in his life, not his weight. His dishonesty with himself led him to lying about being straight for well over a decade. His ex's dishonesty about his relationship keep his kid away from him, then as he later found out, alienated her against him. Even Alan wasn't honest about how much the church stuff was hurting him, which lead to the biggest devastation of his life.
Charlie had more than one obsession, but his core trait wasn't positivity (it really couldn't be with how much he said, "No, I'm gonna die. There's no saving me cause I don't want to be saved) it was honesty and repeated obsessions right down to his death. First his career, then having a child, then Alan, then keeping tabs on Ellie and finally his food and back to his career. The thing he could never conquer was his own depression and spiral out of control of his life. His depression was his "White Whale" and his repeated obsessions were what lead him into his own personalized skiff of death.
At least that's how I see it. I don't think he was hallucinating at the end, I think he was feeling his heart giving up (and yes, with heart issues you physically feel it when it's overstressed) and choosing which obsessions to end his life with. This time choosing his daughter instead of his lover and picking her essay to be the last thing he heard while actively showing the effort he recently found out Ellie had no idea he was trying to make.
Charlie positivity for Ellie is like gambling obsession.
He keep betting blindly at the same number over and over until he hit jackpot once.
Then he happy and go home. (In his case, heaven)
But we know, people just admire this shit, unlike gambling.
I thought of the end as Charlie's hallucination as well, but without the assumption that he didn't have a positive effect on anyone. I think he did, but that's not for we the audience to know for sure.
I didn't get around watching this movie and I only saw reactions to it.
I also never read Moby Dick, I just know the surface theme that a man loses his hand to a whale and is obsessed with getting revenge on that whale.
From what I've seen in the reactions, I can only project my own human experiences onto it.
When I was 20 years old I had developed a tumor in my lung and had ro undergo surgery and, for a moment in my life, I was facing the idea that I might actually already have come to the end line of my life. I luckily am still here, but the feeling I had from the experience suddenly pulled the rug from under my feet and made me land on my nose with a very numb and painful feeling. I had spent so much of my time holding grudges against people that were going to live for another 40 years and will just forget my name. I had spent time of my life fantasizing about finally gettimg back at them to restore my idea of balance and I had lived a life in school, never really pursuing something I felt but just assumed I'd eventually know where my life will go, and I had also realized that all the journeys I wanted to make, all the dreams I put on hold were not going to be pursued once my life is stable once I'd have tlme and once I'm a full adult, because I might actuslly never make it to this full adult.
In a nutshell, though I seemed to live a normal life, I had spent my life in my own concepts of what life should be and how I would imagine a good person in a movie would act, and I acted accordingly, I didn't live and breath.
What strikes me is how this movie seems to portray every person with how they are in denial of a reality that is right in front of them and fail to see the things that matter.
You can't live a life holding onto grudges, you can only live with your best attempt at being your authentic self and choosing whose story this authentic self is capable of telling.
Charlie has put all his cards on having done everything right by being a good father even when he does not live life in a manner that would make him that, he is not living.
Ellie is holding onto this grudge and it's consumed her and forged her identity into that, she is so concerned with how she should cope with this grudge that she doesn't even feel what is driving that grudge, while she completly fails to realize that she as a person has a desire to have a father, she is not participating in her own reality, but the reality of an idea of herself.
The religious boy does the same, and his situation is a lot more obvious. He is in the process of discussing that he had a problem with addiction and he is really performing for a person he thinks he should be, but he does not feel whether he cares, it is more about, the fact that he should care because he is religious, because he is an addict that was coping with substance abuse.
The caretaker is unsurprisingly also consumed by her resentment.
It's an odd movie where everyone is in a bubble and they bounce off of eachother, and occasionaly, they breathe.
I'm sure my interpretation is not what the makers of this movie tried to communicate, but it is what I felt was a major component in it.
Watch the movie dude I think you would like it
And definitely read Moby Dick too. The movie has many layers, as does the book. You sound intelligent, so you’ll gain a lot from both.
I think the movie depicts the personal hell, Charlie has created for himself by internalizing the hatred of the church (and broader christian society), which he has been faced with his entire life due to him being gay. This internalized hatred is worsened when he loses his boyfriend to the church and is not allowed to go to the funeral and mourn. We follow him as he self-hates himself to death. The ending is tragic because he, in death, accepts the church's idea of good, that being him in a straight singular family.
This isn’t totally related to the topic of discussion in the video, but, can we talk about the pizza guy? On first viewing I was so curious to see where those repeated interactions with Dan the pizza guy would lead, and I’m still conflicted about the meaning of the outcome, if there’s any meaning to be extrapolated at all.
Someone pointed out how the pizza guy looks a lot like the photos we see of Alan. Once Dan sees Charlie and reacts with either surprise or disgust or a mix of both, Charlie is sent into a spiral and binges himself to sickness. Then immediately following that, he yells at the missionary about how he would hate for Alan to see the state he is in now for fear that he would be disgusted by his body.
Damn, never crossed my mind. Just thought it served as a reminder of the outside world being unaccepting of him. I thought that could've retriggered the notion in his head of him ignoring his own "truth", making him kind of re-realize his own hypocrisy (relative to his constant preaching of that truth).
Charlie’s actions are not noble, but they are also not done within a vacuum. Think about if things were a little different. Think if he was allowed to see Ellie as she grew up what kind of impact he would have had on her. Think about if his lover didn’t die and how he probably wouldn’t have gone down a food induced death spiral. Think how if his wife wasn’t so critical about everything then maybe he wouldn’t need to have sought love elsewhere. Think about how the mother must have shaped Ellie’s development through her teen years being seen as evil and if the mom tried to understand the pain she was feeling about losing her beloved dad.
You have to take everything in its proper context.
I say this as a product of divorce myself. My dad divorced my mom for what I can surmise as just for money purposes. My mom can’t see her actions and how she ultimately pushed him and his parents [my grandparents] away. Both parties are objectively in the wrong for how they raised me, and the only reason I have a relationship with either of them is because my mom actually reaches out and actively wants to be a part of my life where as my dad couldn’t care less.
I hold no inherent sympathy for men’s rights here. But from a child development stand point, from a point of view that looks for who would have raised Ellie better it’s easy to see that it’s Charlie who would have done so because when she threw a tantrum or when she did something seemingly malicious he didn’t see evil, he saw a traumatized girl showing her genuine pain seeking out attention and ironically comfort.
This is not toxic positivity this is parenting.
It doesn't matter whether the light at the end of the tunnel is in your head or reality it is what propels you forward.
That is the whole idea of the line "do you ever get the feeling people are incapable of not caring"?
We can't help ourselves. Obsession and hope are connected.
if life has broken you enough times this absoloutely wonderful moviel movie will make you cry the entire runtime....
I thought the ending was real, but he ended up unknowingly crushing his daughter to death.
I did not wish to find this funny. Nevertheless, I did.
I legitimately thought that would happen when I first watched it
Thanks, I like your interpretation a lot. Yes, it has so many clever moments, references and layers, I thoroughly enjoyed and being touched. but the biggest takeaway for me is - this is someone strongly encouraging everyone to be truth by lying to himself all his life one way or another. So sad and toxic, and everyone in the film was poisoned by it. And yes, I admire how talented the director is.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! That is definitely the toxic hypocrisy of Charlie; he pursues the truth and yet he does not abide by it.
Extremely interesting video, absolutely love this films fascinating themes
Thank you so much. There's definitely a lot of hella interesting stuff to unpack.
My guy this video was fire 🔥
Thank you so much!
The best to the worst world views all have examples where they are spot-on. The greatest burden of caring is when you see each person's struggle in life as requiring a unique path of healing. No cookie cutter.
Some people might truly be leading a fairytale-like life with no serious worries, not even suppressed. And the most hopeless life full of misery will also happen. It is the infinite diversity of experience, of the universe.
As a concrete example to dissolve rigid views: You said that, as one world view, years of pain cannot just be washed away in hours. Yet there once was a man who could heal people from severe, tormentingly burdensome old illnesses through mere thought. That is a good lesson to never forget that, regardless of how realistic or likely it seems to be in a given situation, anything is possible.
If something seems unreachable in a given situation, then build small bridges in its direction.
Is it possible for the whale to be Alan?
If you think about it, Alan was Charlie's true obsession. Charlie's journey to get Alan represents adventure, love and total freedom. Charlie sacrificed everything to be with Alan and defied all logic. Alan's death eventually triggered Charlie's dependence on food and his regret of not being in touch with his daughter.
Maybe we watched the aftermath of Moby Dick and the consequences of obsessive behaviour. In that case, Charlie's obsessive behaviour was the relentless pursuit of adventure and love, not the food addiction or Ellie.
Some might think the movie criticised "obsessive behaviour", but I would argue that it was a celebration of defiance. Discover your truth, owning your dreams and their consequences. The quote "people are amazing" was used to highlight that fact.
Interesting take!
Obviously to each their own respectfully, but i dont see much of that as obsession, i mean if i had a daughter that i didnt get to see ever i would do so much to reconnect with her, i feel liz is trying her best to help a persons life, not obsessing over it. also with blindness, i dont think charlie was blinded, he knew very well that he was dying, the positivity came from that to make light lmk what yall think :)
Just watched it tonight for the first time.... Man oh man was this good
God this movie is so dark
Reading all of these interpretations made me recall I haven't written my own down.
When I saw him get up and approach his daughter, I imagined her afraid, shaken, but trying do right by him in the end. I saw each step he took as he closed the distance wondering if he'd fall.
As He approached her, I genuinely felt a very real and tangible fear that he was going to fall on her, and when his heels lifted upward I had thought that was what would happen.
I feel like that reflects something in Charlie, the tight rope he walked he was not suited for, he wanted to reform and change all of these delicate and complex relationships with his own optimism.
Though he saw his ascent, I saw what could easily have been her annihilation, and I think that was intentional, and that he could be blinded by the hope he had and in that final moment have fallen on and crushed his daughter.
She stands there with the hopeful expectations, but who was to say there isn't the chance he fell forward crushing what he believed to be the only good thing he'd done with his life.
I feel like the delusion scene in "The Whale" is very reminiscent of the ending kiss in "First Reformed". The dramatised lighting, the swelling music are in such stark contrast with the rest of the movie that reading these scenes as the main characters' dying fantasies is not too far-fetched
I'm not personally familiar with that movie, but thanks for sharing!
I believe that some of the scene was real and some was definite delusion. I like to think that Ellie opening the door and calling Charlie “daddy” and beginning to read to him was real, and the light coming in was Charlie beginning to die and see the “light at the end of the tunnel”. Probably when he takes off the oxygen tubes and stands up, he’s already dead in reality. I just can’t bring myself to believe that Ellie really just leaves the apartment in anger and lets Charlie die there alone. Ellie even suggests calling an ambulance and presumably is willing to risk her entire inheritance that Charlie has saved for her in order to even have a chance of saving his life (a very slim chance albeit). That proves to me that Ellie did care enough to stay and read to him while he dies, just like he wanted.
Interesting take! Especially since we constantly get little, seemingly small prompts throughout the movie to suggest that hallucinating is a possibility. Much like Chekhov's Gun, it's introduced early because it will be used and yet it isn't...unless your friend's reading is correct.
I'm an optimist though so, like Charlie, I'm just going to side step that viewpoint to maintain a happier analysis.
As for Ellie being "evil" or not, I keep on coming back to Ellie being "glad" that Charlie left because it taught her a valuable lesson. Now, I don't believe Ellie actually thinks people are assholes and that's the lesson BUT I do feel like Ellie's early traume taught her something else. By fixating on the idea that having something horrible, sudden yet undeniable happen to you, you as a person learn a lesson and change. For better or worst, Ellie seems to have internalised that and now that's what she does to people around her - give them a harsh and abrupt, yet undeniable look at themselves and their situation. Is it good or evil? I don't think it's either. I think its just how Ellie sadly learnt to make an impact and communicate with others.
Even though I don't like Ellie, it's understandable that she angry with her father. Not only does her father abandon her, he doesn't see her for eight years. No call, no text, not even a Christmas card. Then out of the blue, he wants to reconnect with her when he's literally dying. He wants to reconnect with her to make himself feel better about being a screwup. Charlie may not be a bad guy, but he's definitely not blameless in his situation
I interpreted the ending as Charlie choosing to live because he's found something to live for. The standing up and then floating represents him losing the weight (getit) of depression and realising that killing himself, as the Whale won't help anyone.
Didn’t they say he had heart failure earlier in the film?
No he did actually die. The whole week was him going into heart failure. Even if he had saw a doctor he would have died. I think he died with her reading to him.
Well done.
Thanks! Appreciate it.
9:40 "Sometimes you make mistakes that you can never correct" -- Charlie only tries to correct his mistake with Ellie within the context of his imminent death, and doesn't try to correct his mistake with Ellie by living. Part of the "bleak" interpretation is that Charlie adamantly refuses to try saving his own life as a recourse to help Ellie become the person he wants her to be. The opening premise of the story is that Charlie reached out to Ellie only because his death is imminent. Yet (accepting the odd fact that Charlie's university job doesn't come with health insurance) Hunter and Aronofsky emphasize that Charlie has the option to use the money he saved for Ellie to instead try to save his own life so that he can be part of Ellie's life moving forward. But Charlie insists on giving Ellie his money instead of saving his own life. Indeed, it's implied that while Mary did keep Ellie from him, Charlie could have reached out to Ellie at virtually any time over the years the way he contacted her once he accepted his imminent death. What stopped Charlie as much as or more than Mary's shame-based denial was first his relationship with Alan and subsequently his own shame-based, severely negative self-image. So Charlie believes the best he can do for Ellie is leave her his money, while Hunter and Aronofsky lay out the alternative that maybe the best thing--though likely also the harder thing--he could do for Ellie is save his life so he can fight for her future as her alive father.
I wonder if Thomas might have convinced Charlie to try to live if Thomas had been a trained addiction counselor rather than a teenage missionary. After all, Thomas's final appeal is not altogether different than the God-based message in the "__ Anonymous" addiction groups. But by tying his appeal to Alan's highlighted bible passage and therefore Alan's death, Thomas colored his appeal in the most off-putting way possible for Charlie.
I think the idea that the ending was entirely fake is most likely the intended interpretation, however I much prefer the interpretation where that essay was the reason he always believed in Ellie being a good person, that she could write the essay with such truth and honesty, along with the memories of her as a kid gave Charlie reason to believe in Ellie more than anyone else in his life. I believe Ellie went on with seeing Charlie because she wanted closure or an explanation for why he hurt her, but could never really ask because she felt it made her too emotionally vulnerable, but the way he treated her went against everything she let herself believe about him, which is why she was always angry with him, but when she realized it was her last chance to talk to her dad at all, she got emotional and then the essay broke her because it showed how much he cared in the past, and it also showed how much she cared in the past. I think Ellie was in a dark place when Charlie found her, and if the ending was reality, then he helped her to get out of it and I'd imagine she would work hard to graduate on time and have a good life in spite of her trauma. I feel like the entire act 3 was just a lot of closure for every character, The God Boy (forgot the name) got the closure of acceptance from his family and being truly honest with Charlie, The Mom got closure in that final interaction with him in a way by letting herself be vulnerable and honest with him, even brutally honest, which him then sharing his positivity made her agitated, but I'd hope she would sit on it and find truth in it and be proud that of Ellie for still being alive and maybe even trying her best to help Ellie get through school and be better. The pizza guy even got closure on who Charlie was, Liz got closure by being able to say goodbye in a way she couldn't with her brother. Ellie got closure on her father issues, Charlie got closure on seeing the potential in his daughter get better (talked about Ellie and Charlie a lot so I wrote less for theirs here)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Yes, I can definitely see the closure angle being a big part of the finale.
So damn good
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the daughter as just being cruel.
First, you have to understand the character. She erroneously believed her father completely abandoned her (which the dialogue between charlie and his ex showed was not the case at all, he tried going for custody and was shut out by the courts in an area that to this day still passes laws that discriminate against gay people, as shown by him not being considered "family" to his partner. Along with the constant attempts of charlie trying to be in some small part of her life even if it was just money and updates) and that he essentially forgot about her for his lover. That's her crux, her abandonment issues.
That leads to much of her behaviour, like destroying the bird plate after she see's her father caring for the animals more than she thought he did for her. She was jealous and in pain. Same with the preaching kid. She starts out suspect of him, being from the same church as the man who "took" her father away from her, hence the blackmail pictures. She was being both honest about the pills (showing core personality traits) and then tried to oust him from her father's life by sending those pictures to the local branch of that same church. Then she found out he wasn't part of that church, showing she really did investigate him. She was being protective of her dad in her own, messed up way. Then once she gets to know him and finds out he was also "abandoned", she didn't send the pictures to the family, only the confession. The church she thought mistreated him got both, showing she was trying to sever that relationship with the group while keeping the family connection she didn't (and would never really) have.
Then you get on to her behaviour with Charlie. She was caught only a few days into meeting him again, meaning that "burn in hell" post was just after she met him again (and still didn't know he had been trying to be part of her life ever since the custody case) so of course a 17 year old would still be angry. They aren't known for making the best decisions when emotional. Same as the fact that despite knowing she'd still get the money if she left, still CHOSE to spend time with him, at his mess of a house even when it became emotionally distressing. That indicates that not only was she not there for the money, but she wasn't willing to leave. Not even when it became distressing for her to be there, talking to him. After that, the fact she returns multiple times and only stopped once she was caught again, shows she cared about the relationship and the money/essay was an excuse. Which to her would be why the failing essay would've hurt so much that she had to confront him over it at the end and why she became so upset upon realizing he really did care for her once she read it. Not the case of her father not caring about her again, but caring so much he wanted her to know he did before he died.
Another major point I wanted to point out was the bedrooms. Once she understood it wasn't just him doing a student like she was already told (showing alienation attempts by her mother) but someone her father really loved, which she only understood after hearing him cry in the bathroom. Once she understood that, her references to Alan became far less harsh than "a student you fucked". She even understood and RESPECTED the implied boundary of the shared dust covered bedroom. She didn't enter it like the steps she took into his own bedroom, showing not just respect for Charlie, but his feelings.
A complicated girl, but I think many people do her a character a major disservice by not attempting to understand her points of view and how they would influence her behaviour and character during the film. It's all there, plain as day. She's not an evil kid, she's a hurt daughter looking for answers and finding them over the course of a working week. WHILE still going to school.
It’s a really good essay
Thank you so much!
Little bit of both I think. I really liked the movie tbh.
Fraser said that Charlie is sailing on a raft of regrets, but on a sea of hope. I disagree, respectfully. I saw Charlie as a DELUSIONAL character -- a man who abandoned his family for a gay lover and subsequently LOST that lover and then ate his way into obesity. A lot of people aren't focusing on THAT. Charlie doesn't deserve our sympathy: he was a deadbeat dad. I actually felt more sorrow for his wife and his daughter.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! Yeah, that's a valid way of looking at things. It just seems like the moral here is supposed to be of forgiveness, regardless of the misdeeds and hurts having been done in the past. I don't know if I much agree with that notion, but I preferred to suspend my disbelief and experience the movie within the scope of that theme as it is presented.
Im not crying like crying.. Its hard for me to felt charlie character.
@T B wow...
@T B you obviously either haven't paid much attention to the details in the movie or haven't watched it at all, or you are deliberately selective to fit your own narrative. None of what you have said applies to this particular story.
I personally didn’t feel that the film was advocating for Charlie as a good man or trying to convince the viewer that his sins were even forgivable. We’re given a disturbingly voyeuristic view of the depressing daily life of a dying man, and his life is in this state because of his sins and transgressions.
Charlie is the physical embodiment of regret and pain. It’s clear that he’s not a “good” person, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t have good and redeemable qualities. I found myself charmed by his positive spirit, but one can also see how his positivity would annoy those around him considering the circumstances. He’s desperately grasping for some sort of redemption before death in his own way, like all of us tend to do.
If you view it through the lens of Moby Dick, you’re faced with the fact that “killing the whale” or in this case, Charlie reconnecting with his daughter, does not and can not save Charlie. It’s too little too late. Perhaps Charlie’s attempts to find the positives in everyone around him and in his own wasted life is akin to Ellie’s essay where she writes that the author was “trying to distract us from his own sad story, for just a little while”.
It’s a heartbreaking tragedy but I feel that there’s something valuable to be taken away from every scene in this film.
I think that broken plate points into more bleak direction where Charlie daughter is cruel and the ending is just his fantasy
Shame is also a driving force for Charlie, Mary, and Thomas.
When Samuel Hunter created his characters, it's like he made sure to have a counter-balanced pro/con list for each one. Even Thomas. For most of the movie, Thomas appears to be the most good. Too earnest maybe in his desire to help Charlie, but even his sin of stealing the petty cash of his church's mission was done so he could attempt a more genuine self-directed mission. Yet the darker aspect of Thomas--his obsession to use your term--comes out when he rushes over tieless and shirt untucked in his last-ditch effort to save Charlie's soul, armed with the bookmarked, highlighted, and underscored passage in Alan's bible. Thomas's reference to the passage as a way to salvation for Charlie and to frame Alan's death as a cautionary tale willfully ignored the back story that Liz told him about Alan's fatal struggle to reconcile his deep religious faith with his taboo sexuality. Thomas asserts to Charlie that Alan died because he chose the flesh in the form of his lover, Charlie, over the spirit, the salvation that Thomas proselytizes, when the opposite is inferred from the back story Liz told to Thomas: Alan obeyed that passage and chose the spirit over the flesh by starving himself. If Thomas had only read Alan's highlighted passage without the details of his death, his interpretation would have been more justified. But knowing what Liz told him, Thomas's interpretation comes across as a willful misinterpretation that's crueler than any of Ellie's acts.
I see quite a few comments about Charlie being an unsympathetic character, and it totally shocked me.
Yes, Charlie is selfish. Terribly selfish. He left his own 8yo daughter for a lover. He only reaches out to her when he's dying, because HE wants closure. He refuses to address his health, thus putting Liz in the awful position of simultaneously being his caretaker and enabler.
But he's not unsympathetic.
He never intended to leave his daughter - he left his wife. Someone who, even in good times, never stopped criticising him. All of her compliments are back-handed ones. It's made clear they fought often and made each other miserable. I disagree HEAVILY with the cheating, that was outright wrong, but it's made obvious that they were better off apart. That she fought so hard for full custody and a heavily implied no-contact order (which she clearly never told Ellie about) is almost a testament to the fact that, while Charlie never loved her for the right reasons, I don't think she loved Charlie for the right reasons either. I think he thought he would have taken joint custody and had a part in her upbringing, and didn't fully realize that when he chose Alan, he was setting the stage to leave her. I think he deluded himself into thinking he could have both, which is still selfish... But not remotely unsympathetic. We've all made mistakes when following our hearts. That doesn't magically forgive his choice either - road to hell is paved with good intentions and all - but it's not like he just "left for milk" one day.
As for Liz, that's SUCH a complex issue. They're immediately put in this co-dependant relationship by Alan's death. And it's NOT lost on me that Charlie and Alan killed themselves in opposing ways - Alan refused to eat as a form of self harm until he wasted away and then jumped into the river. Charlie ate and ate and ate AS A FORM OF SELF-HARM, until he had finally harmed himself enough that he was dying. The trauma of one likely led to the opposing trauma of the other, which I think plays a HUGE role in why Liz enables Charlie so much - the trauma of Alan NOT eating is almost soothed by Charlie eating. She begs him to take better care of himself while handing him an enormous meatball sub, and doesn't ever push the hospital issue despite saying, "Broke is better than dead." She never calls for a transport or tries to get him admitted against wishes (which is something nurses KNOW they can do, but she also likely knows of the extreme fatphobia in the medical industry). I do partially think this points to the second reason Charlie won't go to the hospital, which is likely lingering trauma from tbe AIDS crisis. But that's a seperate issue.
I think Charlie lets himself take advantage of Liz because deep down, he thinks that the more he does, the sooner she'll be able to move on from him. He WANTS, in some way, for her to be disgusted enough by him to leave, so his death doesn't feel so much like a loss. But Liz's obsession is caretaking, so obviously that never happens.
Idk, I just can't concieve of a way that Charlie is unsympathetic. He's made mistakes, but you can see WHY. He's selfish, but it's not borne of self-importance, it's a shadow effect of extreme self-loathing, the way every person with suicidal depression who doesn't seek help is selfish.
Just my two cents, I guess.
This is making me want to read Moby Dick. I was never assigned it in school
I had this thought until way later. The New Life kid seemed like death himself. He keeps coming back and lingering… but then just found out he’s just a kid 😂
Interesting perspective!
@@failureoncommand the film shows that people can do good things for selfish reasons
Ellie hurt Charlie by putting Ambien in his drink. Liz didn't want Ellie alone with him because it was dangerous. Ellie also broke the plate the birds were using to eat. I think it's reason to believe she is cruel to animals. I think she's evil. Charlie wanted to help her and I believe he did. However, she's not going to change. Good and evil is not how life works.
My theory is that the final scene with Liz and Ellie was him hallucinating before he died. Despite his reasons, he pushed his ex wife, Ellie, and Liz away and never got forgiveness. Ellie was too far gone to have any sort of redemption, at least not before he died.
All the acting was excellent. I'm reserved about recommending the movie because of the story's strange structure. None of the characters have growth. All conflict is resolved external to each character.
I missed the fact Allan was Liz's brother. I thought she was his next door neighbor.
What's kinda miserable for me as a gay dude that's experienced a lot of homophobia, and has never been in a relationship with a guy is, people will use this movie to believe that all gay people do is have affairs and ruin peoples lives. Describing it as him having a gay lover feels gross to me. People always describe gay people's significant others/boyfriends as "lover." Lover to me gives off this promiscuous, taboo vibe. I want movies that don't make gay people some sort of inconvenience to straight people, when in reality we deal with so much unecessary degradation ourselves by religious zealots, corrupt politicians, and our own families and communities.
the thing that kind of soured this movie for me is the way that everyone who told charlie he was wrong for leaving his wife for a man was proven right.
alan was meant to have an arranged marriage with a woman. he didn't go through with it, finding charlie instead, and then he kills himself. he was told throughout his life through religion that homosexuality was wrong, disgusting, and shameful. then he died, and the script continues to tell us exactly that. even the fact that charlie was not allowed to identify him due to "not being family" pushes in the idea that the two men made the wrong "choice" in being together.
the missionary stole alans bible, pointing out the passage that condemned "living in the flesh", and promised that if charlie followed the scripture, he would live. charlie refuses. the missionary tells him he is disgusting, and leaves with the bible - effectively taking away charlies chances at rebirth or redemption in the eyes of god.
ellie is called a homophobic slur on facebook - the place where she spouts hate and vitriol. she is horrible to everyone, frightening and threatening her peers. and they retaliate by calling her a homophobic slur. again, the ones who ruin lives are the ones labeled as queer.
everyone who is "good" and "correct" in this movie is either explicitly disgusted by charlies sexuality, or their lives were ruined by a gay person they knew. we have to be reminded time and time again - charlies choices made him like this. he chose to be in a relationship with a man, to leave his family, to turn his back on god and to allow the flesh to consume his entire being. and it does.
Charlie isn't the whale. Ellie is.
This... Is a movie that i watched.
Aronofsky is trying to say if Encino Man was obese and middle-aged, he would be significantly less attractive.
Mission accomplished.
Your friend is a genius.
I don't agree with your friend for two reasons. Firstly, of all the films that I recall, where the last scene is some (dieing) fantasy, usually there is a clear mark, that shows that. Here the only thing that can serve as such a mark is the sun outside, a stark change with the rain before, but still I think it is used as a metaphor, rather than suggestion of unreality of the situation. Also, if you look at the other Aronofsky's films, the ending is usually about the main character getting what they want, but not in the way expected and all of the endings prove the main character's struggle was rewarded, just not in the classical way.
Also all of Aronofsky's films are about obsession, but even if the obsession is shown as toxic, it still elevates the character in their final moments.
Too bad that TikTok culture with its drive to rapidly shorten humanity's attention span will make sure great movies such as these (and analyses) become all the more scarce in the future. On that note, I want to thank you for making this video, which I enjoyed, and hope that humanity wakes up one day and realises that we have, in fact, been devolving for the past hundred years or so.
I feel like youre missing the jungian psychology invovled in the movie
I think what disgusts me in the movie is the mother. Shes basically a human Bojack Horseman. She kept a mans daughter away from him because, as it turns out, he was only pretending to be happy. She then spent most of said childhood filling her daughters head with lies to "get back at him" despite her already winning by using the open bigotry at the time to keep her away from him. And now that she realizes she basically chose a personal vendetta over being a mother and turned her kid into a psycho brat who doesnt love her, him or anybody other than herself, now shes ready to say shes sorry. Because she burned literally ever bridge in her life. Now shes going to die alone, and she definitely deserves it. She wants revenge on a man who never existed.
This is an interesting take! I was beginning to think the same about the mother. If Ellie is “evil”, it’s likely the mother’s fault. Undoubtedly the mother has filled Ellie with hatred for her father, arguably much more than Ellie would’ve hated him on her own. I imagine she kept Ellie away from him because she didn’t want Ellie to see any good in him or find any way to empathize and connect with him, as we see she ultimately does in the film. Ellie keeps coming back to the apartment but she says she “doesn’t know why”; she does know why, and it’s because she has a deep longing for her father’s love that’s been taken from her for half of her life. I wonder how different Ellie could’ve been if she knew how much Charlie did care about her well-being. All she knows is that he’s a selfish man who left her, which is true, but we know there’s more to the man than his transgressions too.
You are obsessed with your friend 😂 Great analysis tho
Thank you! He's a pretty cool dude
The only true way to watch The Whale is in 4DX.
The whale is just another clone of the same cliche movie, like "the wrestler"
I just watched this movie. Why did this and Everything, Everywhere All at Once win over Elvis? It’s the most baffling Oscars I have ever watched.
Are you serious? Elvis?! LMAO
It was the year of the woke pity sob story awards.
*No spoilers here.*
THE WHALE is about an obese man named Charlie who doesn't care that he could die at any moment. However, if someone around him is sad or angry, he always finds a way to make their words sound positive. That's right: He's pessimistic and optimistic at the same time. And he has a best friend named Liz who talks to him with tough love, but she also enables his behavior. She's a nurse, but she smokes. All of these aspects might seem like contradictions, but they're actually layers. This had potential to be a very compelling story, but it often feels melodramatic, especially with Rob Simonsen's overbearing music score. The performances are very good, but there are one or two instances of unnatural exposition, and the way Ellie (Charlie's daughter) says shocking things gets old very fast. When she has a conversation with a missionary named Thomas, she admits she doesn't mean anything she's saying and her goal is to make him uncomfortable. The intention doesn't make the scene any less annoying. This is a stage-to-screen adaptation that doesn't feel cinematic. There have been plenty of other cases like this, but what's baffling is that Darren Aronofsky is the director. Whether you like or dislike his movies, you can’t deny that he's an auteur, but this movie feels like anyone could've been behind the camera. And no, staying true to his style wouldn't have been a distraction from the plot, characters and dialogue. THE WRESTLER proved that he can make a movie where the presentation has a lot of personality without being flashy. Here, every scene is presented in the most straightforward way possible. Andrew Weisblum's bad editing doesn't help.
6/10
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Valid criticisms, but regardless of the overall quality of the movie and it's potential flaws, my aim in this video was to tackle themes and messages. The movie definitely isn't for everyone.
@@failureoncommand You're welcome. By the way, I also make reviews, and sometimes they're crossovers with other RUclipsrs where we promote each other's content. If you ever feel like collaborating, my contact information is on my channel.
I have to disagree with you regarding the cinematography. I felt that every bit of camera work and framing in this film was highly intentional; even the aspect ratio in which it was shot adds a purposeful cinematic element while remaining true to the story’s stage play roots. The story takes place in one room practically the entire run time, and considering the strict confines, I felt that Aronofsky made very effective and purposeful decisions with framing, angles, camera tracking on the actors who are mobile unlike Charlie, etc.
A good example of this would be the scene where Ellie first enters the apartment. Charlie is stuck on the couch while Ellie is moving all around him and mostly behind him, completely out of his view even though they’re having a conversation; I thought the camera work was particularly interesting and effective in this scene. I would try watching this scene again and see if you feel any differently about the direction.
@@realnuisance Those are good points.
Most important.
Is the movie woke enough?
His only good movie is The Wrestler
For me its a delusion!
To me its Charlie's hallucination. None of it really happened.
@@OctPSfever i can accept dat reason more than charlie himself.. Its hard for me to get inside his (charlie) mind. He was the most selfies, naive, delusional character that want us to pitty for him. 😂🤣🤣 i hate his character in this. Also wat a prformancr from brendan 🔥🔥🔥🔥
just like 'iam thing of ending things"
i cant stand the daughter, overkilled evil
Consider me the worst person alive but i laughed for majority of the whale, like its a truly tragic tale and i think the movie brings it justice but omg bro he was so fat, like holy shit i would just burst out laughing every single time he would break some kind of equipment or furniture, and the write something real scene just felt like a bit if im going to be real
Can we agree that the ellie in this movie would be an infinitely better fit in hbo's the last of us, than the one cast?
disagree. i don’t get the bella ramsey hate. i felt that she really embodied ellie.
As far as how she looks, I think she would have been a physically closer choice, at least. However, Bella Ramsey did an at least decent job if anything, and really managed to shine in the last 2 episodes, regardless of how close she looks to the video game's Ellie.
Christ I found Charlie so unlikable
I don't view Arronofsky as a master of cinema at all- he's an overhyped plagiarist who stole his best 'ideas' from Satoshi Kon and then lied about it for years.
I... Uh... But like, he's a master of cinema, like a Kung Fu master... because he's just really good... at punching you in the heart...
@@failureoncommand i love most of his filmography. What a director!
perfect blue wins over black swan
completely delusional. people who weight like that suffers from PWS, not emotional baggage
This is one of the worst films I have ever seen. It completely lacks nuance and just hammers you with a bunch of obvious manipulation tactics. I can't wait until we all forget about this film.
Looks like most people here either didn’t read or didn’t understand Moby Dick.
No dichotomy. Hope is a delusion.
I thought when you mention whale, you mean gambling whales 😅
I mean if this guy is toxically positive then doesn't that make Waymond from EEAAO also toxically positive? Does that make EEAAO a pro-toxic positivity film?
Hope. God doesn't work like people do. He simply isn't like people. Take a deep breath with knowing that.
You have a completely misguided comprehension of what toxic positivity is. Toxic positivity is not seeing the good in people and refusing to see the evil, that’s just optimism. Arguably that’s much more healthy in regards to developing a relationship with other people. Care about what they have to say and don’t disregard it because they scream it or they break stuff.
Toxic positivity is much more subversive. It’s the notion of always being positive because you reject the notion of feeling any negative emotions. It’s when someone shares a story with you and you immediately just to saying well it’s over now and you should be happy because it’s done. Or it’s saying I believe in you, I think you will always have the chance to get out of your situation no matter what. Or it’s just saying I’m sending positive vibes and I hope you get better.
None of these actually address any underlying issue. None of these hold space for the person to truly express heir sorrow, their pain, their suffering, or their anxiety. Usually it’s a glib tactic to gloss over someone’s pain in order to make them stop crying just for the moment because as humans we hate seeing others suffer. It’s an extreme form of taking care of someone while only treating their symptoms and not the underlying cause.
I know I was not clear in this comment but I still think it’s important regardless.
At the end of the film, Charlie says to Ellie: "You're perfect!" Parents should NEVER tell their children that they are "perfect."
I disagree. It's important for your children to embrace flaws, however it's also equally important that you show how deeply you love and care for your child. If you've taught your child well (tell them when they're doing things wrong teach values etc), they'll see a statement like "you're perfect" and not think "wow, i'm really the best", but instead feel that deep sense of appreciation you have for them (since they know from the fact that you often critique them they are not in fact "perfect"). It's similar in some ways, to saying someone is "perfect despite their flaws" it's an oxymoronic and illogical statement but everyone understands it for what it is.
Thanks. I always wanted to take life advice from a stranger on the internet.
mp p
100%, definitely. It's like you read my mind.