My wife and I (mid-60's) stated an ICF house 2 years ago. It's half done and we are living in it. I've been in construction all my life and have built several framed houses. We love our ICF house. I would never go back. Plus, at our age, I will never build again anyway. This is our forever house. Cheers, from Canada.
This is great! Thank you! My wife and I are considering our 1st home that we will build and we are highly considering an ICF build. I also am a builder. I have never built a complete home but I have done add ons and every remodel imaginable. We are fascinated by the appeal and strength of an ICF home. Thank you for your testimony!🎉
Where exactly in Canada did you build your house and is the price diference in Canada similar to the one in the USA? Thank you in advance for your reply- we are in the process of designing a house in the okanagan Valley
We built an ICF house 17 years ago and just love it. Our heating cost as less than half of our old house built in the late 60's. Four years ago we put in solar energy, electric bill has been running around $18.00 per month. Back to the house, we built every wall in the house with no experience in building an ICF home. I had some some wiring before and found it easier in the ICF home. The only thing I think you are missing in cost , is the cost of rebar in your concrete.
Just commencing our house build, first intended to commence last summer, permitting delays prevented a start before winter, then materials cost hit. We just made the decision to switch to ICF construction 2 weeks ago. I could still build conventional framing for a little less, but I refuse to build with OSB at $50/ sheet.
Cool and timely video. Putting up a small in-law house on our property. Got my bid for lumber back and freaked out at $50 for 7/16 OSB. Strongly considering ICF at this point.
Thank you; my wife & I just bought a lot in the Huntsville,TX area, & looking to build our forever home in a few years. I grew up living in cinder block houses in Jamaica where there’s multiple hurricanes every year, & they withstood it all. While TX my not see so many hurricanes…it’s prone to other natural disasters too. Other areas of concern are fire, high summer temps, humidity , & flooding. Cinder block or ICF has a higher thermal mass than a wood structure; with higher energy efficiency our overall utility cost will be much lower
You forgot the pumping of the concrete, rebar, wider footings and temporary bracing on an ICF wall. I still favor ICF and have built a State Museum out of ICF about a decade ago. Also even though I'm an old 67 year old Construction Worker I'd rather deal with light ICF and the rebar than standing another wood framed wall.
I didn’t forget rebar, I forgot to mention why I left it out, because the strapping requirements vary so much from one wind/seismic zone to another on framed walls it would be too complicated in a 15 minute video o compare those costs, and unfair to put the rebar cost in without strapping costs for current framing codes, which in most cases is at least equal to the cost of rebar... footings aren’t wider per fox blocks and nudura engineering docs at least up to 3-4 story buildings ive worked on... and putting in bracing costs would be akin to factoring in the cost of skil saws and air compressors to framing... I am doing some icf diy videos soon and those will factor in renting bracing but this video was factoring in professional crews doing both types, thus assuming they had necessary equipment for either at their disposal!
@@all3pools have you used helix rebar replacement in your ICF? I used to work for an architect firm and they managed to replace almost all of the horizontal rebar and iirc the corner rebar on a 5 story hotel walls and a lot of the slab rebar by putting the helix steel fibers in the concrete mix.
This video was very much needed! I found out about ICF a while ago and had long set my mind up on wanting it for my home. I dont see myself paying for a wood framed home because the locations my family and I "plan" to settle down in have either hurricanes or tornadoes. So we'll be needing both the strength and efficiency of ICF.
That's a great point, i live in north Carolina and was actually looking to put a manufactured home on my land but as much as these manufactured homes costs today, i may as well get a house built and looks like with ICF I'd come out better since we live in a state that has tornados and hurricanes, so we'll be much safer with an ICF home, plus the lower energy costs is great also.......from what i hear, now just need to find a qualified builder who is familiar with ICF building
I can't imagine that folks are still building when the lumber cost are through the roof. A wise man would delay building untill the cost normalized, or search for an alternative material, and ICF does indeed look a lot more attractive at this time. By the way, you did a great job showing the difference!
Concrete block are a great choice in todays market, We can pour thw block full of concrete just like this setup and you don't have to use all use a ton of lumber holding up the walls to pour. We put EIFS on our walls and the price is half of this from total cost.
@@llkwildcatt Our home in Florida (all new homes in FL), are built using filled blocks. Quiet, cool & strong - same end result. A cost comparison would be interesting here.
@@llkwildcatt you are not including the cost differential in labor. Laying and moving 32sq ft of block is much more expensive than laying and moving ICF blocks.
We built a Blue Maxx ICF home in 1998, still living here. LOVE IT.... Will never live in a NON ICF again. There's no comparison. Even if it was 2X the cost it's worth it.
To add to what he said. There could be a hurricane outside and we wouldn't know it. It's so quiet. We actually host parties here with a DJ playing music with a 3000 watt sound system. Once outside you can't hear the music at all. Plus we have 120 FT tall trees all around the house. No worries about one of those killing us.
Excellent video..thank you! Even if an ICF home costs more to build, look at what you're ending up with...A SOLID CONCRETE HOME with great r values all the way around! It's a MUCH STRONGER house with a much greater chance of surviving really bad storms with high winds. Everyone has their thoughts and opinions on ICF but I'm with you...for ME...it's a NO BRAINER! Great video!❤️🎉
One more huge benefit is longevity - these walls may last twice as long. A woodframe home wall structure is very roughly designed to last about 50 years, whereas the concrete in an ICF structure would last much longer - I would say 100 years is a reasonable assumption. And, the foam itself should last well as it is not subject to rot on insect damage, and next to the concrete, and covered under ext and int. walls - I will say it will last similar to the concrete - say 100 years. Additionally, being more resistent to fire and wind damage also suggests and longer possible longevity. Note that the many other building systems will be similar in longevity to a frame home.
Greetings from Europe! Would be amazing if you could do a long video comparing ALL the main construction methods for houses like stone, brick, steel, timber frame, sip, icf, concrete (pre cast, cast on site), various panelling,aerated concrete et etc. Imagine you’re someone that doesn’t know anything about building houses, having a video explaining all these methods would be so valuable to so many people. Right now I have to piece everything together myself…there is NO RUclips video explaining this. Like why is it that most houses in U.K. are made of brick, US houses made of wood frame and developing countries from hideous looking massive concrete blocks. Never understood this, have to piece all this myself. If you do a well researched video on all main house construction methods in the world, explaining geographic differences for example, I think it would become the most watched construction video on RUclips!
I can tell you (by my understanding) that the UK is brick due to the lack of lumber forest, codes, traditions. The US is stuck framing or block (depending on the regine) is the larger availability of lumber and codes. Third world nations I am pretty sure concrete is done because the skill level to get a functional home is lower, much more durable of a build, also most homes that aren't to code but just built by the people are usually whatever they can get their hands on. But to your idea of pricing each method is doable but would quickly be out of date due to fluctuating prices and lost of skilled labor in certain trades as most workers are starting to age out.
@@wintryhard I’m from Jamaica, houses are built from cinder block “NOT DUE TO LOWER SKILLED” levels NOR due to what’s available…BUT due to climate conditions & hazard; Jamaica is highly prone to hurricane’s & building homes out cinder block is the logical way. Please be more educated on other countries construction methods.
@@markafletcher2042 their bias is so obvious to us but they seem either blind or purposefully trying to big themselves up in every aspect of life. Let ALL their stick houses get blown or flooded away
Agree with most of your points. 👍🏻 A closer to apples to apples comparison would use the same thickness and type of insulation outside of the sheathing. That was my plan for my personal build, but I’ve gone to ICF.
I'm a big ICF fan. I ran the numbers like you and ICF was not a huge premium even with lumber prices from two years ago. Rather than looking at reduced HVAC costs, I look at it like less solar required to be grid independent because my goal is to build a house with minimum expense after it's built. In my desert location, water is the only utility bill I can't really eliminate, property tax is my only exposure to Uncle Sam and a broadband connection is the only luxury I want to maintain. I'm pretty sure I can skip homeowners insurance because high winds, asteroids and planes falling out of the sky are about the only things that can damage it so liability is my main risk. If I can get a cheaper umbrella policy, I'll go with that. I think the idea of ICF only adding a few percent to the resale value is underestimating it. I plan to live in the house I build pretty much until I die, hopefully for 40-50 years. A stick built home at 50 years is going to be showing its age, probably ready for it's third roof and maintenance will be a fairly regular thing. An ICF house with a standing seam steel roof might be ready for it's second roof at 50 years depending on how humid and wet the environment is. Plumbing and electrical might be ready for a re-do or maybe not if you planned well and used quality materials but the structure below the roof is going to be solid for 200+ years if the roof and exterior envelope are maintained fairly well. At the 50 year mark, the ICF home is just breaking in while some people see a wood framed house as near end of life. That has to translate in to value. One thing I'm considering is galvanized rebar so the reinforcement won't rust away as quickly. That might turn a 2-300 year house in to a 500+ year house. I have to weigh the extra centuries against the chance that someone will want to cut up and remodel my house at some point but I don't think people will be so different in 500 years that what I need now won't work for them. Looking at the environmental aspect of building a house, amortizing the impact over 500 years of use makes things like the "carbon footprint" look miniscule compared to other building methods and will create a nice legacy for me. One thing I don't see in a lot of houses (and ICF houses are no exception) is optimizing the space inside the house so every cubic foot is utilized, access panels and mechanical plenums to allow repair or wholesale replacement of plumbing and wiring without disturbing the interior finishes too much. Nobody seems to design their plumbing and electric to work with their structure, it's all afterthought and drilling holes through structural members. Not even pre-fab panelized buildings get it right. Doing all of it right will result in a smaller building that lives bigger, with HVAC expenses reduced even more than an average design built with outstanding materials. The exterior finish (stucco for me) will last longer because the monolithic concrete structure underneath will be so stiff that the building walls will never move. Ultimately it should be so low maintenance that time between major repairs/maintenance should be measured in decades. How do you put a price on that?
All really great points, you really get it! It’s hard for me to not run off on tangents on these videos because I want to make all these points at once as well! I think a lot of people are starting to think like this, I had a guy the other day asking me about building a 100 year pool, I’d never had someone look at an architectural piece like that! I have a friend who built bridges before he retired, he swears by epoxy coated rebar, the green stuff you see the highway departments using...I’m intrigued by the fiberglass rebar I’ve been seeing at home shows and works of concrete last time I was there but I like to limit myself to a couple new variables at a time, and the architects i desk with usually keep me doing flips with more new stuff than I care to admit as it is lol... I’m doing tours of some of my completed projects currently but it takes a while to coordinate with people living in them and such, but stay tuned for more of those because one thing some of my architects do really well is design the space between the floors to be chaseways, usually 24-30” from one ceiling to next floor, takes more lumber which is bad times right now, but you have no soffits, fishing new things to retrofit is minimally invasive, and I can personally attest to it giving at least smaller service people access to crawl around and repair things without messing up sheetrock or flooring! We used very high end HE Williams cans in a house which required secondary 18ga wire to be run to them for a 0-10v dimmable system(theater cans basically)... the wire didn’t get run because of a change in the av company mid stroke so me and the electrician spent a couple days slithering around between floors to rectify the mess! Not fun but could have been a disaster! Thanks for tuning in and for thinking the way you do!
@@all3pools my mechanical chase/plenum is going to be a simplified T shape and my second story is going to be split level so I can have a 10' ceiling height in part of my first story (shop space) and I'm going to use the transition to make my plenum bigger/accessible from below. I think I'm going to run vertical conduit going from my baseboard to crown moulding with electrical boxes at various spots so that I can add switches or outlets after the fact or just use the conduit to get wires from the baseboard to the ceiling for lighting. My plumbing will be in the plenum and behind cabinets, electric will be in a cavity behind removable baseboard to get beyond the plenum. Basically I want to try to future-proof it somewhat and hope that anything I can't route through the plenum/baseboard/conduit will be wireless.
Great video buddy ! I have installed ICF's since 1996. I have personally experienced or heard directly from my many customers (now friends) everything you talk about here.
You did forget the cost of the rebar, and also the cost of the closed-cell foam. 3" of closed-cell will be R21 + the R 3.6 of the Zip board which is R 0.6 more than the R24 of the ICF On studies when the outside temperature is 30 dg. it takes about two to three hours to penetrate a framed wall; an ICF wall takes about TWO DAYS thanks to the thermal mass of the concrete. Also with ICF, besides all the good things you said, there is no rot, no air leakage, no noise, no bugs, and if a car hits your house, most likely would not enter the living room. ICF, and for me is NUDURA; more options, more support, and 1/3 of the cost on shipping. In my project, Foxblock will require a 53' container, Nudura, a 16' box truck.
I love seeing the difference in production values between older channels and newer ones like yours. I love how you've used absolutely simple side by side comparison to do the talking.
that concrete price is atrocious... portland is a commodity so it costs the same everywhere... so im guessing you live somewhere without a ton of competition, also, around me we build a lot of basements and crawls, the pump exists for both stick frame and icf, icf will have additional yards so slightly higher yardage fee but not much, steel is on par with all the simpson strapping required in most seismic and midwestern and coastal regions where wind codes are heightened, i left steel out because the strapping discussion would have been a rabbit hole that would really run up the vid length, but given the number of comments i should have explained that...
@@all3pools Portland cement might have a fairly uniform price but some regions are having a hard time sourcing aggregate nearby. I was reading a piece about sand and gravel being mined on Vancouver Island (Canada!!!) and barged down the coast to Los Angeles. It was cheaper to do that than to send trucks out into the mountains to get aggregate from the quarries there. Also, everyone charges what the market will bear, and in the absence of competition, the market is required to bear a lot more.
Another thing to add is the chemicals - and how materials used in today’s construction is almost like hazard waste vs old way of stone and timber buildings .. we fill out homes with so much unhealthy “stuff” - not realizing how it may be impacting our homes. I am learning more about natural & healthier ways of building homes - and when driving around you see homes so cheaply made - especially with the lumber prices going up - and demand for homes - people are cutting corners.. thank you for a great video ! Numbers were great for an overall point - somethings may have been missed like rebar etc but the main point is VERY informative - I hope we can look back and understand how old way of building homes started with picking the right spot - energetically - avoiding geopathic& grid crossings etc .. then specific materials used to leverage and spread the positive energies.. thank you again for a great video !!
Thanks for this info. My build is starting next year and I think ICF is what I want to do. You are right, right now it is a no-brainer. I am trying to figure out a lumber cost to where it makes sense to go that route.
Do not worry about the up front cost, you'll be happier in a ICF home. Lived in this one for 20+ years (1998) would never go back to lumber... See my other comments.
@@neverknow69 Thanks, I already had plans to do the basement ICF, I guess might as well just go up another level. Any gotchas from an ICF house? Anything other people dont know about. I do like the idea of cheaper energy bills, smaller heating/cooling units and quiet. Even if lumber does come down the pros seem great. Also I'd think the home would appraise for more than a lumber home.
Thank you so much for making this video!!!. I am an architect/builder and I have been saying this for years for the long-term costs of the traditional stick-frame home versus the quality and performance of ICF. Now with the scandalous rise in the cost of milled soft lumber, you are showing that the initial up-front costs are about the same. IMO, construction lumber costs are NOT coming down significantly for some time, if ever. What commercial product, especially one that is actually the end product of a global supply chain ( most construction lumber does NOT come from the US), has EVER come down? I have subscribed, liked, and shared!
I agree, I have seen lumber tank in the past, and shoot up after a big storm or something, but as long as interest is nearly free and banks are lending the race will continue, but any economic factor changes lumber may have to get relative... but even when it does I love the idea of limiting lumber as much as possible, icf and lite deck are great ways to do it!
Fox hasn’t moved yet... they are talking 5% in July maybe, but a far cry from the increases in lumber and steel, I just posted an update video addressing the current state of the market
I have to say again that this is the best ICF video ever made. Super job, and you are so humble about it! Thank you from my wife Pernille and I both. She loves thick walls with wide window sills. Liked and subscribed!
I will definitely try to do that! I’ve got one coming out tomorrow or Tuesday thst was suppose to be a start to finish vinyl liner icf pool but the liner didn’t show so now it’s a preview of about 4 ongoing icf pools(vinyl and plaster versions) and a crazy custom mansion I’m building for some clients... so lots of icf content coming. I’m working a show with my concrete plant and fox blocks in bnb early may so if I haven’t hit the topic by then I’ll try to do a vid from the show and break down a crawl with a bid from a gates form guy compared to turn key icf bid on the same house!
Talk about a bullshit artist! This guy even believes his own bull! What about the pump truck cost? What about comparing R values, if everything is equal than rebates are a mute point, right? What about 2nd floor? What Rebar costs? What about anchoring tops and bottoms to floor systems, wood walls you nail, concrete you bolt it hammer drill both take longer. I personally don't see it. And its only the exterior walls? Interior walls? On a wood floor joist system, the extra weight needs to be considered. Icf has its place but I don't see it here. Thanks
Spoken like a lumber salesman... don’t worry there’s plenty of lumber on the inside of these houses most of the time... But I don’t think you understood many of the points in this vid... but I’ll address your concerns first; Pump truck exsists in most crawl spaces before framing anyway, we shoot the whole wall from footer to roof or second floor as u mentioned in one shot, so she number of pumps on single level, maybe 100-200 in extra yardage fee around here on a big icf job max... I mentioned rebar in the comments in detail, rebar to spec on that wall section is about $10 for #4 grade 60 bought by the ton, I also left out all code required Simpson strapping, fasteners, and ring shanks on framed wall for simplicity... as far as anchoring I’m not sure I even follow what you are saying, icf runs from the ground to the roof and floors attach, you avoid all of your greenplate and my preferred method we use the anchor bolts that aren’t in the top anymore and we anchor the floor, easy process which adds $0 but I’ll address in a future build video so this isn’t too long... if you watch my thermal bridging video you would know that R-values are a bad way to look at either advanced framing or icf as good spray foam and especially icf far outperform their r-values because the seal so well... There is no hammer drilling at all... And your point about it only being outer walls? Yes, that was the point, the outer walls being icf instead of quality wood framing is very near on par and saves you operating costs from day one to infinity, are you disputing that? Anyway I’d be happy to answer any actual questions not answered in any of my videos or address more of the nuts and bolts in future vids...
Loved this - really good insights. Question: did you include rebar - or is that not used in your market? Also - is there additional waterproof costs involved with the ICF to consider?
I didn’t include rebar, I also didn’t include all the code required strapping and nails and fasteners for framed walls, I was trying to keep the vid under 15 minutes but I should have taken a minute to get into the details I was intentionally leaving out since they are similar expenses on either side! There are multiple waterproofing options that can be used but they typically exist on regular crawl or basement walls too, you need nothing above grade!
here in aus,started in sweden,ish,60 yrs ago,,we use hebel panels. in place of brick,fixed to steel or timber frames,, its sound proof,& insulation. & damn quik to build. also good for floors,lower or upper..
All true cost of ownership calculations must include the capital costs PLUS operating and maintenance costs. When working with a contractor to work up a construction budget these calculations are almost never performed,.. like less than 1% of the homes constructed do so. This is why we have so many shitty homes. ICF wins this calculation in every case EVEN if the up front cost is twice that of framing.
so to reiterate, in a normal market ICF is NOT more expensive, it is less expensive. Even if you plan to flip the home, the home sells at a premium because the vastly reduced operating and maintenance costs as well as the improved home comfort and safety... unless you and your realtor are idiots who dont know how to sell homes
Appreciate the comparison but you did not include the price of rebar and lumber for window/door bucks, or seem reinforcement. That does not add a huge cost but still appreciable. Love your channel content! Keep the great videos coming. 👍
We shoukd stop making homes with timber, its expensive and doesn't hold up well in a storm, hurricane, or other disasters compare to concrete, i am not sure why this country keep building with stick frame, i hate it, its expensive and sucks over time.
Im a retired custom Design Build Contractor that also built ICF. My experience was that if the house was it least 1800 sqft of living area the cost was the same. at thats building to the square (edge of roof).
IMO I feel ICF is more valuable and should cost more, and wooden built homes are cheap and should cost less. Funny to see that ICF is now less than stick built. So IMO the value in ICF is multiples higher in return than stick built and now cheaper. Crazy!
But what about when concrete is 325 a yard and our icf forms are over 60 each. We just get hosed here in southeast Alaska with freight and greed of the suppliers
Geeze! Portland does vary due to logistics but 325/yd3... that said I would think we can get you block for a lot less than that, I’ll be with some of the guys from fox working a show this weekend, I’ll bring up Alaska and see what they say for efficiency of getting product up there!
That would be awesome to get blocks at a reasonable price but the freight prices here are crazy. A 53’ flat of building supplies cost over 16k from Seattle to Juneau where we are. I also crab during the summers and I just got 40 50 pound dungie pots and the freight was just 100 a pot. That’s how ridiculous the freight is.
Awesome explanation. I can see why you’re passionate about it. It really should be adopted in the construction industry as a standard. If that were to happen prices for icf would drop and the cost could be a non issue.
Great video! I think you missed the rebar. Depending on your seismic zone that wall section will have at least one stick per course, so 24’ horizontal, probably #4 and perhaps 2 or 3 vertical, either #4 or #5. 20’ sticks of #4 are $6-7? So perhaps another $15-20 for a 4X8 wall section... helix(steel micro rebar re-enforcement) mixed in with the CC might also be an option if the local code allows it, but I am not sure of the cost added to the CC. I think the long term heating and cooling are probably it’s biggest advantage. We just moved into ours and it is perhaps the most thermally stable structure I have ever occupied.
Well said, I addressed it in multiple comments and it is #4 and adds about 12-15$... but I also left out all the Simpson strapping and fasteners needed for wood framing as I decided they were close enough and I was trying to keep the video under 15 min. That said it would have added 10 seconds for me to say that and it would have been a better video lol! Helix is allowed, my pool engineer even likes it in icf pools except corners and spillover walls... I just ordered fiberglass rebar, a little cheaper right now and supposedly stronger, we’ll see!
@@all3pools yea, we built ours in a seismic zone, so the verticals were number 5’s, 16”OC, and there was a double row at the top as well as S bars to form the lintel beam over all the wide openings(windows/french doors)
I’ve never built in a seismic zone and I bet there is a lot of difference, is there extra strapping required for wood frame? I have built multiple houses on the gulf coast in hurricane zone and the strapping requirements are wild! The last two houses I did we spent probably $7500 each house on Simpson strapping and nails 4-5 years ago, mostly to create load path to combat uplift from wind! If I build down there again I’ll do icf on Pilings! Didn’t have the knowledge then!
@@all3pools yes, strapping for tension, and blocking... in our case the 20’ floor trusses were strapped(every other truss) with a 4’ tie strap. where they met at the load bearing center basement wall. there were ties imbedded into the ICF pour that tied the trusses to the ICF walls. In the other dimension there were straps 48” OC that spanned wall to wall and all those paths were also blocked under the straps. This was a 60’ X 40’ rectangle one story on a full daylight basement... the roof trusses were also blocked and capped on the bottom chord 24” OC for the first 4 bays and rat runs every 48”. All with 2bay overlaps. There were some pretty extensive gable bracing and all the sheathing seams were blocked... trusses were attached with hgam-10 brackets... got real good at doing cc anchors, and my wife got real good at cutting and feeding me blocking;) most involved truss roof I have ever done...
This vid is 9 months old in the first 6 weeks of my channel, I’ve had a mic since soon after this vid, there’s also a new version of this vid with more up to date numbers posted on this channel last Sunday:)
I totally agree with everything you said here and I am very happy you made this video as I just had this argument with a friend about this exact thing.. As far as lumber costs going down, I am truly wondering if it ever will. When concrete more than doubled in cost almost 20 years ago, it was all about the cost of fuel, (THEY SAID)... Fuel came way down and the cost of crete never did. Right now I see bog box has little lumber and prices are INSANE!! BUT,, there is a mill in Tampa that I pass once a month or so and they have a huge yard FULL of PT. (They specialize in treating lumber). 2 by and stockade fencing. Before this I NEVER saw anywhere near the amount of lumber in their yard. EVER!!! If you ask me, this is more of the BIG BOX screwing us to the wall.... For prices to come down it is going to take builders to shut down or we are going to have to come together with a buyers union. This is exactly why I HATE (BIG BOX)..... They set the prices on everything in their stores.
Ya watching real estate in general go wild I think it’s a perfect storm of very cheap and available financing(too many people only care about what the payment is and not if they are overpaying) and a few market factors that would have usher the market up some, and now the powers that be are seeing how far they can go before they cause a slow down or sense resistance... I’ve got a lot of framer friends that are seeing a lot of skidding builders not wanting to get left holding a house they paid 40k too much to build, but it will take a decent number of people reacting to pull things back down...
Probably 1500 on the house I just did for rebar , depending on wind or seismic zone the strapping requirements for framed could be 1k of it could be 6k like the beach houses i have features on here... so I left out highly variable parts because you’ll need to evaluate in your particular area to get a true comparison, but regardless the structural integrity will be incomparable:)
You left out the cost of rebar for the ICF. I do like building with it! I haven't used Fox blocks. Mostly Integraspec. What height of lift can you pour concrete at with the Fox ? I can do 10' lifts with the Integraspec easily. Do the fox blocks come with pre formed corners?
Ya I addressed rebar in the comments, I left out ring shanks and Simpson straps on the framed wall too but it probably adds a few hundo to the cost of an icf house... trying to keep the vids to a watchable length and get all the info I want to say is rough, as I build vids I’ll try to keep the pertinent stuff in all of them! Fox do have preformed corners, they go both ways which is great, you don’t have a right and left corner you just turn them over! I do a lot of wild pours and tend to push icf forms with some funky monopour pools where I’m pouring 12” core walls on nothing but fab forms mono legs, so the height of the lift is less of a concern to me a log of times than the legs trying to shift if my bracing isn’t really good! That said, we pour a lot of crawl space homes and attach the subfloor to the hollow blocks 3-4’ up and then form the rest of the house and pour at once, usually 14-15’ which is what fox says is max and we’ve had no issues at all! A couple of years ago I was pouring a nudura wall with a rake that went from 11’ on one end to 19’ at the tip, we figured we’d take it slow and it would be fine, problem is that it was winter and the steam from the hot water made it impossible to see in the form until the concrete was 2’ from the top... we usually pour at a 4 slump with super p for flowability but it stacked up 17’ all at once in the middle of that wall and didn’t blow, bulge or anything... the pump operator and I were both freaked out about what could’ve happened but it’s a testament to the forms out performing what they are rated to do on pour day if you brace them right!
Gr8 Video Brother, I built ICF 6yrs ago and I love it. My biggest concern today is ... what is the latest regarding how BEST to handle bug and termite control these days. We are designing our retirement home now for Charlotte, NC area and I'm looking for the very best mitigation of bugs crawling inside between foam and concrete! I PERSONALLY removed all traces of wood on the property and foundation... and spent a great deal with Permatreat to soak soil before pouring concrete ... and I pay for regular treatments of soil and home for bugs. I want ICF for the new design but am looking for the VERY BEST practice!
Sounds like you’ve got it figured out, I’ve seen guys in the south East saying exterminators won’t treat or won’t guarantee treatment due to an infiltration being harder to detect, but we don’t have that issue with companies here in mo that I’m aware of... pretreat in his number one most important and regular treatment afterward! But what you did with mitigating the potential problems with enticements around the perimeter is an often overlooked step that it sound like you did!
Wow. I First Over Looked ICF Because It's Substantially More Expensive Then Cheap 2x4 Construction... But Then I Started Learning About R Valves And Efficiency etc. Then It Changed To 2x6 Construction With Closed Cell Foam Cavity Insulation And Exterior Insulation etc. That Narrows The Price Between ICF Even Before The Lumber Spike. Now It's Like The Same Price For Near Passive House Performance.
I'm in the process of planning a ICF home. I intend on going from the foundation (8" concrete core wall below grade) to the roof (6" concrete core wall above ground). I also want to use Lite Deck in my garage & stoop to utilize the space below. I'm interested in the your input on the transition details of these 3 components (8" wall, Lite Deck & 6" wall). I would like to use Lite Deck for my back deck also & skip the wood. A video on this subject would be great.
Sounds like you’ve got the system pegged! The whole package you are looking at is the best way to build out there, lite deck is super cool, I have a preview video coming out tomorrow that shows my next few videos, lot of icf pool building and a couple home tours, one of which is a 15000 sq ft house that’s all icf and light deck on 3 levels! I’m not sure about every block system but fox blocks are made to integrate from 6” to 8” and so on, the outside will remain flush and the inside sits lip to lip with about 5/8 overlap, I will try to show that specifically in an upcoming video on my own house where I’m planning to let my wife stack all the block for the small basement under our room addition to demonstrate the ease for a diy application! I’m also using lite deck on that project so I’ll detail how I do it!
@@all3pools I'll be using Fox Blocks, that's what my local Carrol Construction Supply has here in Lincoln, NE. I will say it's hard to find someone to install ICF around here though, the supply house has had a couple contractors in mind but not a lot of interest from them. I might be tackling this on my own. It's great to find some content on ICF's for reference, so keep up with the videos! I'd like to install an ICF pool also! Do you have anyone in my area I could reach out to for ICF? Thanks
I saw a stick frame construction company spokesman saying they didn't they don't do much ICF because of termites. Termites become a factor because they burrow into the insulation and get to the wood, and that ARAB and TERMINEX would not work on it because termite tracks would not be evident. Building Inspectors would not pass on any structures not carrying termite guarantees. What is your response to this? The state is North Carolina.
Engineers typically love both, the systems are well engineered already so they can plug n play! Architects like it too but some modern guys love exposed concrete... form over function guys... so we end up doing a lot of pretty but far less efficient walls too...
@@cab1277 my wife and built our ice home fourteen years ago. Was not hard! The company we got our blocks from provided us a lot of assistance and guidance at no cost. We would do it again!
I have a 3400 square foot ICF house in North Carolina with a gas tankless hot water heater. I've been in the house for 8 years and love it. My power bill this month is $102. Needless to say I love it.
Greatings Aaron, great video👍. In the video, it missing a material, Steel Rod to support that interior wall. That will make the cost much higher. By the time of the video and end of the year, prices will raise even more. Also, there are few house plans for that material type, which will increase the cost to update plans. Thank you, keep videos coming. Sincerely, 😎Mr. Villalba 🇵🇷
They are now pursuing the use of fiberglass rebar so as steel gets more expensive, fiberglass may be the answer. The other thing that has become an issue now (2024) is the price of energy is skyrocketing. Where I live, we use home heating oil, and I have had several $800 tank fills this winter (which wasn't a cold one), and it will only keep going up with an addition to our carbon tax on the very near horizon and a 20+ % increase at that!
They are, but unlike lumber it’s not as industry wide so it feels less colluded... nudura and buildblock already went up 15% plus(lot less that lumber) but the fox blocks that I’ve been using for a little over a year has been steady, they do expect to have to raise their price only 5% sometime in July but the heads up is giving us time to buy up the rest of this years jobs! Text me 417-861-8656 and I can hook you up with my rep there, they can drop ship just about anywhere!
@@clydesolomon8533 i haven’t used Nudura, but we just moved into our house we built with fox. Good solid blocks, strong cross-ties and very solid corners. Their clip system to tie blocks to each other is simple and very effective. We had no shifting, floating or blowouts doing 30” lifts when we poured. Nudura’s fold to transport and store, so they ship cheaper and take up less room. But from what I understand they do not have as strong a corner, so you need to take some extra precautions to make sure they don’t shift or blowout during the pour. They also use a steel hinge pin in the cross-ties that allow them to fold. If you need to rip across that pin area for height, door or window opening or wall penetrations, it can be a pain. I think they are also 18” tall, where every other block is 16”, so they don’t stack evenly to 4’ or 8’ heights... beyond that they both male a solid wall with good attach points every 8”...
ICF more often than not has a slightly higher initial cost, however it is probably the most energy efficient system going. For several reasons. The main reason in my opinion because of the concrete pouring, although it is normally done a floor at a time, it becomes a monolithic structure eliminating any draughts through the walls, the joints between the windows and walls can very easily be super sealed against air flow, making the structure super air tight even after years of settling.
Thank you for your video. I see people talk about termite issues with ICF homes. Can you tell me where wood is used in an ICF home (apart from the roof).
Typically your interior walls and ceilings, as well as subfloors in crawl space and basement homes, that said with limber like it is we are currently looking harder at light deck concrete floors and steel studs! Termites can be an issue with any home, periodic treatment and proper landscaping are generally sufficient mitigators!
@@all3pools concrete floors sounds like a great idea. In MX the entire home is made out of concrete with steel rebar (including floor amd roof) and no interior wood walls and there is absolutely no issues with moisture penetration. The outside is plastered, inside walls and celinings finised smootg amd painted and you are good to go. Much longer life than wood frame homes.
I like steel framing on interior walls and it’s becoming more cost effective with the lumber craziness. I have a video on here addressing my main issue in regards to the outer outer walls which is thermal bridging, and also the fact you still have to sheath it and osb and plywood are the biggest problem effecting lumber costs atm!
No, in this series of video I address it as often as I think of it, framing requires strapping, lots of strapping, in mo where I live, it’s probably 5-600 for a 2500 ft home, but in dauphin island(v flood zone and hurricane alley) the same house requires 6-7k in straps, yet they take the same rebar regardless of location pretty much, so the 2-3k in rebar may be more or less depending on your location, so I keep it rudimentary and leave the details to you
If my math isn't totally wrong the ICF costs about 80% more than a 2x8 walls. Or does it have to do with labour? I am thinking of building a 32x50 bungalow myself (8' walls) and the ICF walls came to 18k CAD and the the 2x8 walls came to 10k. Thats 80% more for the ICF ?! My 2x8 walls would be 24 o.c. and have 2x4 staggered so that there is no thermal bridging. I would have sheathing on the outside and dense packed cellulose on the inside giving me about an R27 for the walls (1x4 strapping on the inside to hang the drywall, this is also giving me 3/4" more room for cellulose so a total of 8" cellulose). A concrete pump truck costs close to 1000 CAD. Rebar isn't cheap and I would have to rent bracing to brace the walls. Beside the much higher price, what really turns me off is bracing all the windows (+doors). Just roughly for the ICF (total about 18k): - 1k for the concrete pump truck - 5k for the concrete - 10 k for the forms - 500 for the rebar - 1k for renting+buying bracing For the 2x8 walls (total about 10k): - 1x4 Strapping 500 - 2x8 1750 - 2x4 1500 - cellulose 2k - vapour barrier 200 - building wrap 250 - nails 350 - sheathing 3500 I kind of like the ICF (even took a Foxx Block training course because I did a foundation with it) but I think I can use the 8k for something else
The sheathing even if you use regular osb and not zip will run you north of 8k right now…. It’s $52/sheet, based on your dimensions you’ll need 160 sheets, so I think your math isn’t current at least in the lower 48…. That’s the only line item I checked but I’m guessing the lumber might be off too, that said maybe it’s not insane in Canada right now…. Plus the structural benefits, it’s a pretty easy upgrade
@@all3pools My math: I am using 1x6 t&G Spruce for sheathing. It covers 5", so a 1x6,16' covers 6.66 square feet, right? My wall area (the south has lots of windows but there are also other windows+doors) is about 1600 square feet. So I would need about 250 boards. One board is about 14$ so that comes to 3500 which is what I said :-)
I just checked your math and I have no idea how you end up with north of 8k for the sheathing.1600 square feet divided by 32 (one sheet of 4x8) means 50 sheets. 50 sheets at 52 is 2600 not 8000.
I also put 1x6 let in bracing in the corners for extra insurance.I build our house that way and it is not moving here in Nova Scotia (1x4 strapping on the inside, then drywall) :-) I figure it is the extra labour that might make ICF more competitive but if you just look at it from a material perspective ICF is almost twice the cost my 2x8 wall
@@all3pools ty for your prompt reply. I can't send a pic through this format. 1,000sf is my goal. Your demo was for 2,000sf. I'll pause the video and extrapolate what I need. Do y'all also do the site prep?
Icf labor is all over the board atm…. Honestly the industry grew so quickly this year guys were able to go up on labor way outpacing other niches…. So I honestly can’t say in your market, that said, if you are a diy-er, there’s significant savings, what I mean is you are able to replace foundation contractor and a good bit of framing, two things most diy types can’t do due to lack of equipment or enough people, so while we are in the midst of a labor shortage and high prices I’d say that’s the biggest value from a labor/savings angle…
One point if you are a DYI person wouldn't you save a whole lot in labor cuz you're actually pouring the forms yourself and placing the blocks together and it appears you don't need years of carpentry experience to use the blocks ?
The only thing I would like to add is is it real a "cheap" build if you insulated the stick frame with R19 bats? Don't get me wrong, the fiber doesn't compare to the spray, but is it considered "cheap"? I don't think so... Heck, the Zip panel is still the same 7/16 OSB, right? So now what is the cost analysis between the two? To be perfectly clear, I am not knocking the use of ICF. Soon I will be building my last home, at age 67, and I am strongly considering it for my full cellar..
Great question, I rounded up concrete costs a bit to try and cover it for time... I’d love to go into every hidden cost that surprise people new to building... I also didn’t factor in ring shank nails and framing nails for the outer walls... basically I try to keep my videos under 15 minutes and I was trying to simplify but be as accurate as possible. The extra rebar over a traditional foundation is about 1-1.5 tons so right now $1,000 to $1500, and framed walls probably use $500 more in nails than icf so it definitely makes a little difference, but I didn’t get into all the HVAC savings in great detail either! Thanks for the question!
I’m a hillbilly... and my buddy did something janky to power his electrostatic sprayer in my spray booth and I’m fairly oblivious to things in my shop until after I shoot a video and memorialize the culture;)
What about Hurricane strength? Stick built homes are too brittle to be built in Hurricane zones... Also, you didn't do the double bottom plate / top plate 2x6 boards...
ICF looks like the way to go. I'd go with that and probably brick on the outside just for that extra layer of durability. Stucco looks good as well, but I'm just not sure about long term care and maintenance of it. With ICF and really good windows, you can have an extremely energy efficient house. My next question would be "what about the roof?" Does anyone have any recommendations on a roof concept that doesn't make it the glaring weakness in the design? Is a high angle roof less prone to storm damage? I've seen a product that looks like Spanish tile but it is an engineered product and designed to withstand strikes from large hail. It also has a significant warranty. Does having the roof lined with solar panels help reduce the heating of the roof due to the solar panels taking the direct hit from the sun instead of the shingles/tile? Any recommendations for preventing heat buildup in upper floors and vaulted ceilings? Trying to figure out how to close that one gap.
There are a lot of factors in regards to the roof! Guys who really understand icf are imbedding hangers in the top of the concrete wall and getting amazing uplift protection, steeper roofs are great for snow loads but less great in wind prone areas... a lot of the modern builds we are doing have very shallow standing seam roofs and nearly flat tpo and they are framed with near subfloor strength... there are poured concrete roof systems out there but I haven’t gotten my hands on any yet to have a good working knowledge, but we do some light deck floors and if the work like that I will be very interested in getting further into it! Ps, I highly recommend quaker windows, their vinyl and wood clad are top notch, but if you are going modern with big aluminum store front looking windows, their city view series emulates the look perfectly with actual residential quality glass and thermal breaks!
It depends on the house. If I were to use ICF I would build modern contemporary with a flat roof. Just remember any roof material used is only as good as the installer
Just curious…does the drywall attach directly to the form on the inside and does the siding attach directly to the form on the outside? Or is there another step needed?
Is there any problem with termites and ICF? I read that in some states no one will do a termite inspection because you can’t see the damage from the outside. I’m also in the Springfield MO area and I’m not sure if that’s a problem here
I suppose they could tunnel through in search of wood in the roof... but it’s a much longer journey from the ground than stick frame, and periodic perimeter treatment would render it highly unlikely... here in Missouri I’ve never seen it but I too see the comments... I think it’s kind of like people saying that icf is too tight, it’s a lack of understanding of current state of the art... thanks for the feedback!
You should watch my latest update vid, I address why that wasn’t included, there’s a reason, and bracing lumber? If you are referring to 2x4 whalers with zonts they aren’t one time use and other icf bracing is all metal, and typically provided by the contractor
Fox and Logix blocks are in Canada. There are a bunch more too but Those are the ones I’m familiar with. I use Logix but am looking at trying Nudura. No suppliers stock them in my area so haven’t tried them.
The price of everything is going through the roof so nobody will be able to afford a house. If they can it will be half the house that they dreamed of. This is ridiculous I hope the feds raise interest rates and stop buying back bonds to get control of inflation.
Well, at least such houses and not these wooden disposable chicken coops where Americans live. And even better brick - the best building material has not been invented.
Thanks for the effort and creating this video. I just new in this and was wondering why did you miss three cost of the ICF: 1-cost of the steel rebar which you need. 2- cost of delivering concrete which could be quite expensive. Cost of concrete per yard is around $110 and then they charge $60 for delivering and pumping would be extra. 3- cost of braces whether making or renting.
Ya I didn’t go down every rabbit hole because I really try to keep the vids under 15 minutes, I should have included rebar on icf and all the Fastner(nails, screws, tap cons, redheads) on wood frame, I did break it down further in a comment... the price I quoted in my market in the ozarks for concrete was a delivered price! And the pump is basically the same price wether you pump a short wall and frame or pump a full icf, there will be a yardage charge that might make the pump cost a couple hundred more if your walls are really tall but the pump cost exists for both types of building! Where do you live that concrete delivered is $170/yd?? Lastly bracing, if you are hiring this done, bracing will be provided and included for the price I mentioned above, if you choose to go DIY, there are some of us who will rent our zonts and zuckles, and the concrete plant I use rents the standard icf verticals bracing for around $500/wk which is generally sufficient for a single level pour, so you avoid all labor costs associated and incur a minimal rental fee...
@@all3pools i live in Waterloo,ON. Do you know contractor around here? Again, I like you video, don't forget there is no doubt ICF is better, so if it cost the same, it will get higher demand and will get more. expensive.
I mean, someone has to deliver the wood for a traditional stick built house too. Stick built homes also have to be braced for plumbness until you nail it all together. You're nit picking with the exception of the rebar. However, rebar isn't filled in every ICF block. Say, it could run on the second row and fifth rows. So, using Daves 4x8 sheet as the example, you'd have two 4 ft pieces of rebar on the second row and two 4ft pieces on the fifth row. Besides, he's making the comparison for now since wood is expensive, not forever. Plus, ICF has way better sound barrier and you don't have to worry about rot.
Very ture. To pump concrete around here in Canada (Nova Scotia) is close to 1000 CAD. Rebar isn't cheap (definitely a lot more than nails) and you have to rent the bracing or spend a lot of time screwing lumber (which lumber- if you are building with ICF you won't have much lumber). I am trying to figure out whether I should go for ICF or for a 2x8 wall with dense packaged cellulose. So far I figure the 2x8 wall would be 10k and the ICF 18 k (thats doing all the work myself, so just materials). I would have a much better insulated wall with the 2x8 wall (24 o.c. with 2x4 staggered so not thermal bridging).
Subbing for the great info on price. Tried to contact a local supplier and he wouldn't tell me anything. Wanted to get blueprints before he'd tell me the cost of the blocks. I oversaw an ICF build after the pour and it was easy to work with. Drywalling was a breeze.
@@all3pools Yes please! My email is myfortressconstruction@gmail.com. I've only ever seen fox blocks but the nudura makes a lot of sense, especially on the shipping side of things.
@@all3pools could you get me a price as well? Wife and I were going to put up a steel building to finish out as a home but now I'm considering something i never thought i would! Steel prices are high as a kite and still rising, so I'm considering options.
Great video, thank you. I like that ICF idea , makes sense . Is there a way to get contact s to who can put up a ICF building In Springfield MO area please
My wife and I (mid-60's) stated an ICF house 2 years ago. It's half done and we are living in it. I've been in construction all my life and have built several framed houses. We love our ICF house. I would never go back. Plus, at our age, I will never build again anyway. This is our forever house. Cheers, from Canada.
This is great! Thank you! My wife and I are considering our 1st home that we will build and we are highly considering an ICF build. I also am a builder. I have never built a complete home but I have done add ons and every remodel imaginable. We are fascinated by the appeal and strength of an ICF home. Thank you for your testimony!🎉
Where exactly in Canada did you build your house and is the price diference in Canada similar to the one in the USA? Thank you in advance for your reply- we are in the process of designing a house in the okanagan Valley
@@olgitagarcia3707 did you end up choosing ICF? We’re in Vancouver and contemplating too
We built an ICF house 17 years ago and just love it. Our heating cost as less than half of our old house built in the late 60's. Four years ago we put in solar energy, electric bill has been running around $18.00 per month. Back to the house, we built every wall in the house with no experience in building an ICF home. I had some some wiring before and found it easier in the ICF home. The only thing I think you are missing in cost , is the cost of rebar in your concrete.
Just commencing our house build, first intended to commence last summer, permitting delays prevented a start before winter, then materials cost hit. We just made the decision to switch to ICF construction 2 weeks ago. I could still build conventional framing for a little less, but I refuse to build with OSB at $50/ sheet.
Cool and timely video. Putting up a small in-law house on our property. Got my bid for lumber back and freaked out at $50 for 7/16 OSB. Strongly considering ICF at this point.
That ADU will be standing long after your main house
Thank you; my wife & I just bought a lot in the Huntsville,TX area, & looking to build our forever home in a few years. I grew up living in cinder block houses in Jamaica where there’s multiple hurricanes every year, & they withstood it all.
While TX my not see so many hurricanes…it’s prone to other natural disasters too. Other areas of concern are fire, high summer temps, humidity , & flooding.
Cinder block or ICF has a higher thermal mass than a wood structure; with higher energy efficiency our overall utility cost will be much lower
Wow!!! What a great video!!! $187 vs. $192. And less labor with ICF, better insulation, stronger house, and lower insurance.
It has to come closer when you take into account rebar. Still better
@@connbyrn just don't use rebar
You forgot the pumping of the concrete, rebar, wider footings and temporary bracing on an ICF wall. I still favor ICF and have built a State Museum out of ICF about a decade ago. Also even though I'm an old 67 year old Construction Worker I'd rather deal with light ICF and the rebar than standing another wood framed wall.
I didn’t forget rebar, I forgot to mention why I left it out, because the strapping requirements vary so much from one wind/seismic zone to another on framed walls it would be too complicated in a 15 minute video o compare those costs, and unfair to put the rebar cost in without strapping costs for current framing codes, which in most cases is at least equal to the cost of rebar... footings aren’t wider per fox blocks and nudura engineering docs at least up to 3-4 story buildings ive worked on... and putting in bracing costs would be akin to factoring in the cost of skil saws and air compressors to framing... I am doing some icf diy videos soon and those will factor in renting bracing but this video was factoring in professional crews doing both types, thus assuming they had necessary equipment for either at their disposal!
@@all3pools have you used helix rebar replacement in your ICF? I used to work for an architect firm and they managed to replace almost all of the horizontal rebar and iirc the corner rebar on a 5 story hotel walls and a lot of the slab rebar by putting the helix steel fibers in the concrete mix.
This video was very much needed! I found out about ICF a while ago and had long set my mind up on wanting it for my home. I dont see myself paying for a wood framed home because the locations my family and I "plan" to settle down in have either hurricanes or tornadoes. So we'll be needing both the strength and efficiency of ICF.
That's a great point, i live in north Carolina and was actually looking to put a manufactured home on my land but as much as these manufactured homes costs today, i may as well get a house built and looks like with ICF I'd come out better since we live in a state that has tornados and hurricanes, so we'll be much safer with an ICF home, plus the lower energy costs is great also.......from what i hear, now just need to find a qualified builder who is familiar with ICF building
I can't imagine that folks are still building when the lumber cost are through the roof.
A wise man would delay building untill the cost normalized, or search for an alternative material, and ICF does indeed look a lot more attractive at this time.
By the way, you did a great job showing the difference!
Concrete block are a great choice in todays market, We can pour thw block full of concrete just like this setup and you don't have to use all use a ton of lumber holding up the walls to pour. We put EIFS on our walls and the price is half of this from total cost.
I’ve been thinking the same about a concrete block house. When you have the insulation and attachments it could be a lot cheaper
Rich people with huge credit build no matter what. They need to impress people who have nothing for them.
@@llkwildcatt Our home in Florida (all new homes in FL), are built using filled blocks. Quiet, cool & strong - same end result. A cost comparison would be interesting here.
@@llkwildcatt you are not including the cost differential in labor. Laying and moving 32sq ft of block is much more expensive than laying and moving ICF blocks.
We built a Blue Maxx ICF home in 1998, still living here. LOVE IT.... Will never live in a NON ICF again. There's no comparison. Even if it was 2X the cost it's worth it.
To add to what he said. There could be a hurricane outside and we wouldn't know it. It's so quiet. We actually host parties here with a DJ playing music with a 3000 watt sound system. Once outside you can't hear the music at all. Plus we have 120 FT tall trees all around the house. No worries about one of those killing us.
@@neverknow69 lul
I'm an Electrician living in Eastern Oregon. I am pursuing an ICF Build for my Wife and I.. Thanks for the Video
We’ll keep them coming!
Excellent video..thank you! Even if an ICF home costs more to build, look at what you're ending up with...A SOLID CONCRETE HOME with great r values all the way around! It's a MUCH STRONGER house with a much greater chance of surviving really bad storms with high winds. Everyone has their thoughts and opinions on ICF but I'm with you...for ME...it's a NO BRAINER! Great video!❤️🎉
I may have missed it but I think you forgot to include rebar in the cost for the ICF build. Regardless, I think I would still prefer ICF.
yep, he left out the cost of rebar. not a true and valid comparison!
You'll also still need to buy some lumber for top plates, window bracing, and depending on the system window bucks.
Yup you'd be correct on that... I built ICF 2500sq ft bungalow... lots of lumber required for bracing windows ect.
To be fair he also left out fasteners in the stick built wall as well, but the ultimate outcome is valid.
Rebar and the cost of a pump truck!
One more huge benefit is longevity - these walls may last twice as long. A woodframe home wall structure is very roughly designed to last about 50 years, whereas the concrete in an ICF structure would last much longer - I would say 100 years is a reasonable assumption. And, the foam itself should last well as it is not subject to rot on insect damage, and next to the concrete, and covered under ext and int. walls - I will say it will last similar to the concrete - say 100 years. Additionally, being more resistent to fire and wind damage also suggests and longer possible longevity. Note that the many other building systems will be similar in longevity to a frame home.
Greetings from Europe! Would be amazing if you could do a long video comparing ALL the main construction methods for houses like stone, brick, steel, timber frame, sip, icf, concrete (pre cast, cast on site), various panelling,aerated concrete et etc. Imagine you’re someone that doesn’t know anything about building houses, having a video explaining all these methods would be so valuable to so many people. Right now I have to piece everything together myself…there is NO RUclips video explaining this. Like why is it that most houses in U.K. are made of brick, US houses made of wood frame and developing countries from hideous looking massive concrete blocks. Never understood this, have to piece all this myself. If you do a well researched video on all main house construction methods in the world, explaining geographic differences for example, I think it would become the most watched construction video on RUclips!
I can tell you (by my understanding) that the UK is brick due to the lack of lumber forest, codes, traditions. The US is stuck framing or block (depending on the regine) is the larger availability of lumber and codes. Third world nations I am pretty sure concrete is done because the skill level to get a functional home is lower, much more durable of a build, also most homes that aren't to code but just built by the people are usually whatever they can get their hands on. But to your idea of pricing each method is doable but would quickly be out of date due to fluctuating prices and lost of skilled labor in certain trades as most workers are starting to age out.
@@wintryhard I’m from Jamaica, houses are built from cinder block “NOT DUE TO LOWER SKILLED” levels NOR due to what’s available…BUT due to climate conditions & hazard; Jamaica is highly prone to hurricane’s & building homes out cinder block is the logical way. Please be more educated on other countries construction methods.
@@markafletcher2042 their bias is so obvious to us but they seem either blind or purposefully trying to big themselves up in every aspect of life. Let ALL their stick houses get blown or flooded away
Excellent video. Just a heads up, I think you missed the cost of rebar and bracing.
Agree with most of your points. 👍🏻 A closer to apples to apples comparison would use the same thickness and type of insulation outside of the sheathing. That was my plan for my personal build, but I’ve gone to ICF.
I'm a big ICF fan. I ran the numbers like you and ICF was not a huge premium even with lumber prices from two years ago.
Rather than looking at reduced HVAC costs, I look at it like less solar required to be grid independent because my goal is to build a house with minimum expense after it's built. In my desert location, water is the only utility bill I can't really eliminate, property tax is my only exposure to Uncle Sam and a broadband connection is the only luxury I want to maintain.
I'm pretty sure I can skip homeowners insurance because high winds, asteroids and planes falling out of the sky are about the only things that can damage it so liability is my main risk. If I can get a cheaper umbrella policy, I'll go with that.
I think the idea of ICF only adding a few percent to the resale value is underestimating it. I plan to live in the house I build pretty much until I die, hopefully for 40-50 years. A stick built home at 50 years is going to be showing its age, probably ready for it's third roof and maintenance will be a fairly regular thing. An ICF house with a standing seam steel roof might be ready for it's second roof at 50 years depending on how humid and wet the environment is. Plumbing and electrical might be ready for a re-do or maybe not if you planned well and used quality materials but the structure below the roof is going to be solid for 200+ years if the roof and exterior envelope are maintained fairly well. At the 50 year mark, the ICF home is just breaking in while some people see a wood framed house as near end of life. That has to translate in to value.
One thing I'm considering is galvanized rebar so the reinforcement won't rust away as quickly. That might turn a 2-300 year house in to a 500+ year house.
I have to weigh the extra centuries against the chance that someone will want to cut up and remodel my house at some point but I don't think people will be so different in 500 years that what I need now won't work for them.
Looking at the environmental aspect of building a house, amortizing the impact over 500 years of use makes things like the "carbon footprint" look miniscule compared to other building methods and will create a nice legacy for me.
One thing I don't see in a lot of houses (and ICF houses are no exception) is optimizing the space inside the house so every cubic foot is utilized, access panels and mechanical plenums to allow repair or wholesale replacement of plumbing and wiring without disturbing the interior finishes too much.
Nobody seems to design their plumbing and electric to work with their structure, it's all afterthought and drilling holes through structural members. Not even pre-fab panelized buildings get it right.
Doing all of it right will result in a smaller building that lives bigger, with HVAC expenses reduced even more than an average design built with outstanding materials. The exterior finish (stucco for me) will last longer because the monolithic concrete structure underneath will be so stiff that the building walls will never move. Ultimately it should be so low maintenance that time between major repairs/maintenance should be measured in decades.
How do you put a price on that?
All really great points, you really get it! It’s hard for me to not run off on tangents on these videos because I want to make all these points at once as well! I think a lot of people are starting to think like this, I had a guy the other day asking me about building a 100 year pool, I’d never had someone look at an architectural piece like that!
I have a friend who built bridges before he retired, he swears by epoxy coated rebar, the green stuff you see the highway departments using...I’m intrigued by the fiberglass rebar I’ve been seeing at home shows and works of concrete last time I was there but I like to limit myself to a couple new variables at a time, and the architects i desk with usually keep me doing flips with more new stuff than I care to admit as it is lol... I’m doing tours of some of my completed projects currently but it takes a while to coordinate with people living in them and such, but stay tuned for more of those because one thing some of my architects do really well is design the space between the floors to be chaseways, usually 24-30” from one ceiling to next floor, takes more lumber which is bad times right now, but you have no soffits, fishing new things to retrofit is minimally invasive, and I can personally attest to it giving at least smaller service people access to crawl around and repair things without messing up sheetrock or flooring! We used very high end HE Williams cans in a house which required secondary 18ga wire to be run to them for a 0-10v dimmable system(theater cans basically)... the wire didn’t get run because of a change in the av company mid stroke so me and the electrician spent a couple days slithering around between floors to rectify the mess! Not fun but could have been a disaster!
Thanks for tuning in and for thinking the way you do!
@@all3pools my mechanical chase/plenum is going to be a simplified T shape and my second story is going to be split level so I can have a 10' ceiling height in part of my first story (shop space) and I'm going to use the transition to make my plenum bigger/accessible from below.
I think I'm going to run vertical conduit going from my baseboard to crown moulding with electrical boxes at various spots so that I can add switches or outlets after the fact or just use the conduit to get wires from the baseboard to the ceiling for lighting.
My plumbing will be in the plenum and behind cabinets, electric will be in a cavity behind removable baseboard to get beyond the plenum.
Basically I want to try to future-proof it somewhat and hope that anything I can't route through the plenum/baseboard/conduit will be wireless.
Great video buddy !
I have installed ICF's since 1996. I have personally experienced or heard directly from my many customers (now friends) everything you talk about here.
You did forget the cost of the rebar, and also the cost of the closed-cell foam. 3" of closed-cell will be R21 + the R 3.6 of the Zip board which is R 0.6 more than the R24 of the ICF
On studies when the outside temperature is 30 dg. it takes about two to three hours to penetrate a framed wall; an ICF wall takes about TWO DAYS thanks to the thermal mass of the concrete.
Also with ICF, besides all the good things you said, there is no rot, no air leakage, no noise, no bugs, and if a car hits your house, most likely would not enter the living room.
ICF, and for me is NUDURA; more options, more support, and 1/3 of the cost on shipping. In my project, Foxblock will require a 53' container, Nudura, a 16' box truck.
I love seeing the difference in production values between older channels and newer ones like yours. I love how you've used absolutely simple side by side comparison to do the talking.
We had our house built with ICF construction 9 years ago and love it. My son is planning to build soon and is sold on the idea of ICF.
You need to add the concrete pump, the steel, the bracing. You're price of concrete are really low!! Near me we pay 250$ per yard delivered!
that concrete price is atrocious... portland is a commodity so it costs the same everywhere... so im guessing you live somewhere without a ton of competition, also, around me we build a lot of basements and crawls, the pump exists for both stick frame and icf, icf will have additional yards so slightly higher yardage fee but not much, steel is on par with all the simpson strapping required in most seismic and midwestern and coastal regions where wind codes are heightened, i left steel out because the strapping discussion would have been a rabbit hole that would really run up the vid length, but given the number of comments i should have explained that...
@@all3pools Portland cement might have a fairly uniform price but some regions are having a hard time sourcing aggregate nearby. I was reading a piece about sand and gravel being mined on Vancouver Island (Canada!!!) and barged down the coast to Los Angeles. It was cheaper to do that than to send trucks out into the mountains to get aggregate from the quarries there. Also, everyone charges what the market will bear, and in the absence of competition, the market is required to bear a lot more.
$212 where I live.
great video! you might consider redoing this video once a year as prices change
Ya, would love to redo the video about how out of whack lumber is even sooner than thst but we’ll see...
I like the cost breakdown of the different 4' x 8' walls. Thanks for the analysis; it was informative.
Thank you
@@all3pools I think you forgot to factor in rebar in the cost analysis.
Brah is straight up savage! No rebar in ICF!
Wow you are dumb
@@all3pools I'm glad you have a real estate finance degree. Some of us are uneducated and that is why we are here watching this video
Another thing to add is the chemicals - and how materials used in today’s construction is almost like hazard waste vs old way of stone and timber buildings .. we fill out homes with so much unhealthy “stuff” - not realizing how it may be impacting our homes. I am learning more about natural & healthier ways of building homes - and when driving around you see homes so cheaply made - especially with the lumber prices going up - and demand for homes - people are cutting corners..
thank you for a great video ! Numbers were great for an overall point - somethings may have been missed like rebar etc but the main point is VERY informative - I hope we can look back and understand how old way of building homes started with picking the right spot - energetically - avoiding geopathic& grid crossings etc .. then specific materials used to leverage and spread the positive energies..
thank you again for a great video !!
Bracing, scaffolding, and plywood to protect from blow out,
I live in Alabama, how can I find someone that builds ICF homes?
Thanks for this info. My build is starting next year and I think ICF is what I want to do. You are right, right now it is a no-brainer. I am trying to figure out a lumber cost to where it makes sense to go that route.
Do not worry about the up front cost, you'll be happier in a ICF home. Lived in this one for 20+ years (1998) would never go back to lumber... See my other comments.
@@neverknow69 Thanks, I already had plans to do the basement ICF, I guess might as well just go up another level. Any gotchas from an ICF house? Anything other people dont know about. I do like the idea of cheaper energy bills, smaller heating/cooling units and quiet. Even if lumber does come down the pros seem great. Also I'd think the home would appraise for more than a lumber home.
Thank you so much for making this video!!!. I am an architect/builder and I have been saying this for years for the long-term costs of the traditional stick-frame home versus the quality and performance of ICF. Now with the scandalous rise in the cost of milled soft lumber, you are showing that the initial up-front costs are about the same. IMO, construction lumber costs are NOT coming down significantly for some time, if ever. What commercial product, especially one that is actually the end product of a global supply chain ( most construction lumber does NOT come from the US), has EVER come down? I have subscribed, liked, and shared!
I agree, I have seen lumber tank in the past, and shoot up after a big storm or something, but as long as interest is nearly free and banks are lending the race will continue, but any economic factor changes lumber may have to get relative... but even when it does I love the idea of limiting lumber as much as possible, icf and lite deck are great ways to do it!
@@all3pools lite deck???
You also need to add rebar to the price
He also talks about cost and does the best quality lumber built home and the the average for home efficiency’s and isn’t fair the whole video
I’m sure ICF pricing has started to rise as well, everything is going up
Fox hasn’t moved yet... they are talking 5% in July maybe, but a far cry from the increases in lumber and steel, I just posted an update video addressing the current state of the market
I've been monitoring for a few years and it hasn't budged.
Lumber costs are out of control because a few of the major companies are price gouging.
I have to say again that this is the best ICF video ever made. Super job, and you are so humble about it! Thank you from my wife Pernille and I both. She loves thick walls with wide window sills. Liked and subscribed!
Thank you! More on the way!
Great video!
Thanks! We’ve done a few more updates to this one in the past year!
You have to look at life cycle costs, not just i itial outlay
Excellent!! Thank you!!
Thanks!
Could you make a video giving a cost analysis of the difference in price for a traditional formed
Foundation vs icf foundation
I will definitely try to do that! I’ve got one coming out tomorrow or Tuesday thst was suppose to be a start to finish vinyl liner icf pool but the liner didn’t show so now it’s a preview of about 4 ongoing icf pools(vinyl and plaster versions) and a crazy custom mansion I’m building for some clients... so lots of icf content coming. I’m working a show with my concrete plant and fox blocks in bnb early may so if I haven’t hit the topic by then I’ll try to do a vid from the show and break down a crawl with a bid from a gates form guy compared to turn key icf bid on the same house!
I used Fast Foot, what a time, money and labor saver
Talk about a bullshit artist! This guy even believes his own bull!
What about the pump truck cost?
What about comparing R values, if everything is equal than rebates are a mute point, right?
What about 2nd floor?
What Rebar costs?
What about anchoring tops and bottoms to floor systems, wood walls you nail, concrete you bolt it hammer drill both take longer.
I personally don't see it.
And its only the exterior walls?
Interior walls? On a wood floor joist system, the extra weight needs to be considered.
Icf has its place but I don't see it here.
Thanks
Spoken like a lumber salesman... don’t worry there’s plenty of lumber on the inside of these houses most of the time... But I don’t think you understood many of the points in this vid... but I’ll address your concerns first;
Pump truck exsists in most crawl spaces before framing anyway, we shoot the whole wall from footer to roof or second floor as u mentioned in one shot, so she number of pumps on single level, maybe 100-200 in extra yardage fee around here on a big icf job max... I mentioned rebar in the comments in detail, rebar to spec on that wall section is about $10 for #4 grade 60 bought by the ton, I also left out all code required Simpson strapping, fasteners, and ring shanks on framed wall for simplicity...
as far as anchoring I’m not sure I even follow what you are saying, icf runs from the ground to the roof and floors attach, you avoid all of your greenplate and my preferred method we use the anchor bolts that aren’t in the top anymore and we anchor the floor, easy process which adds $0 but I’ll address in a future build video so this isn’t too long...
if you watch my thermal bridging video you would know that R-values are a bad way to look at either advanced framing or icf as good spray foam and especially icf far outperform their r-values because the seal so well...
There is no hammer drilling at all...
And your point about it only being outer walls? Yes, that was the point, the outer walls being icf instead of quality wood framing is very near on par and saves you operating costs from day one to infinity, are you disputing that? Anyway I’d be happy to answer any actual questions not answered in any of my videos or address more of the nuts and bolts in future vids...
Loved this - really good insights. Question: did you include rebar - or is that not used in your market? Also - is there additional waterproof costs involved with the ICF to consider?
I didn’t include rebar, I also didn’t include all the code required strapping and nails and fasteners for framed walls, I was trying to keep the vid under 15 minutes but I should have taken a minute to get into the details I was intentionally leaving out since they are similar expenses on either side! There are multiple waterproofing options that can be used but they typically exist on regular crawl or basement walls too, you need nothing above grade!
here in aus,started in sweden,ish,60 yrs ago,,we use hebel panels. in place of brick,fixed to steel or timber frames,, its sound proof,& insulation. & damn quik to build. also good for floors,lower or upper..
All true cost of ownership calculations must include the capital costs PLUS operating and maintenance costs. When working with a contractor to work up a construction budget these calculations are almost never performed,.. like less than 1% of the homes constructed do so. This is why we have so many shitty homes.
ICF wins this calculation in every case EVEN if the up front cost is twice that of framing.
so to reiterate, in a normal market ICF is NOT more expensive, it is less expensive. Even if you plan to flip the home, the home sells at a premium because the vastly reduced operating and maintenance costs as well as the improved home comfort and safety... unless you and your realtor are idiots who dont know how to sell homes
Great video! What would you estimate all-in price to build a 2000sqft home with this?
Too many variables to even attempt giving a number here !
Appreciate the comparison but you did not include the price of rebar and lumber for window/door bucks, or seem reinforcement. That does not add a huge cost but still appreciable. Love your channel content! Keep the great videos coming. 👍
We shoukd stop making homes with timber, its expensive and doesn't hold up well in a storm, hurricane, or other disasters compare to concrete, i am not sure why this country keep building with stick frame, i hate it, its expensive and sucks over time.
Agreed
Im a retired custom Design Build Contractor that also built ICF. My experience was that if the house was it least 1800 sqft of living area the cost was the same. at thats building to the square (edge of roof).
Yes! And with lumber spiking over the past several months icf is even more of a value!
IMO I feel ICF is more valuable and should cost more, and wooden built homes are cheap and should cost less.
Funny to see that ICF is now less than stick built. So IMO the value in ICF is multiples higher in return than stick built and now cheaper. Crazy!
Great video and analysis
Thank you
Thanks
But what about when concrete is 325 a yard and our icf forms are over 60 each. We just get hosed here in southeast Alaska with freight and greed of the suppliers
Geeze! Portland does vary due to logistics but 325/yd3... that said I would think we can get you block for a lot less than that, I’ll be with some of the guys from fox working a show this weekend, I’ll bring up Alaska and see what they say for efficiency of getting product up there!
That would be awesome to get blocks at a reasonable price but the freight prices here are crazy. A 53’ flat of building supplies cost over 16k from Seattle to Juneau where we are. I also crab during the summers and I just got 40 50 pound dungie pots and the freight was just 100 a pot. That’s how ridiculous the freight is.
What about the steel rods inside the concrete you didn't mention them
Awesome explanation. I can see why you’re passionate about it. It really should be adopted in the construction industry as a standard. If that were to happen prices for icf would drop and the cost could be a non issue.
The east coast is on it with the icf
Great video! I think you missed the rebar. Depending on your seismic zone that wall section will have at least one stick per course, so 24’ horizontal, probably #4 and perhaps 2 or 3 vertical, either #4 or #5. 20’ sticks of #4 are $6-7? So perhaps another $15-20 for a 4X8 wall section... helix(steel micro rebar re-enforcement) mixed in with the CC might also be an option if the local code allows it, but I am not sure of the cost added to the CC. I think the long term heating and cooling are probably it’s biggest advantage. We just moved into ours and it is perhaps the most thermally stable structure I have ever occupied.
Well said, I addressed it in multiple comments and it is #4 and adds about 12-15$... but I also left out all the Simpson strapping and fasteners needed for wood framing as I decided they were close enough and I was trying to keep the video under 15 min. That said it would have added 10 seconds for me to say that and it would have been a better video lol! Helix is allowed, my pool engineer even likes it in icf pools except corners and spillover walls... I just ordered fiberglass rebar, a little cheaper right now and supposedly stronger, we’ll see!
@@all3pools yea, we built ours in a seismic zone, so the verticals were number 5’s, 16”OC, and there was a double row at the top as well as S bars to form the lintel beam over all the wide openings(windows/french doors)
I’ve never built in a seismic zone and I bet there is a lot of difference, is there extra strapping required for wood frame? I have built multiple houses on the gulf coast in hurricane zone and the strapping requirements are wild! The last two houses I did we spent probably $7500 each house on Simpson strapping and nails 4-5 years ago, mostly to create load path to combat uplift from wind! If I build down there again I’ll do icf on Pilings! Didn’t have the knowledge then!
@@all3pools yes, strapping for tension, and blocking... in our case the 20’ floor trusses were strapped(every other truss) with a 4’ tie strap. where they met at the load bearing center basement wall. there were ties imbedded into the ICF pour that tied the trusses to the ICF walls. In the other dimension there were straps 48” OC that spanned wall to wall and all those paths were also blocked under the straps. This was a 60’ X 40’ rectangle one story on a full daylight basement... the roof trusses were also blocked and capped on the bottom chord 24” OC for the first 4 bays and rat runs every 48”. All with 2bay overlaps. There were some pretty extensive gable bracing and all the sheathing seams were blocked... trusses were attached with hgam-10 brackets... got real good at doing cc anchors, and my wife got real good at cutting and feeding me blocking;) most involved truss roof I have ever done...
@@all3pools You build 300 miles from the New Madrid fault.
Nice job, but recommend get a good lapel mic. I almost couldn't hear you with local noise and my laptop turned all the way up.
This vid is 9 months old in the first 6 weeks of my channel, I’ve had a mic since soon after this vid, there’s also a new version of this vid with more up to date numbers posted on this channel last Sunday:)
I totally agree with everything you said here and I am very happy you made this video as I just had this argument with a friend about this exact thing.. As far as lumber costs going down, I am truly wondering if it ever will. When concrete more than doubled in cost almost 20 years ago, it was all about the cost of fuel, (THEY SAID)... Fuel came way down and the cost of crete never did. Right now I see bog box has little lumber and prices are INSANE!! BUT,, there is a mill in Tampa that I pass once a month or so and they have a huge yard FULL of PT. (They specialize in treating lumber). 2 by and stockade fencing. Before this I NEVER saw anywhere near the amount of lumber in their yard. EVER!!! If you ask me, this is more of the BIG BOX screwing us to the wall.... For prices to come down it is going to take builders to shut down or we are going to have to come together with a buyers union. This is exactly why I HATE (BIG BOX)..... They set the prices on everything in their stores.
Ya watching real estate in general go wild I think it’s a perfect storm of very cheap and available financing(too many people only care about what the payment is and not if they are overpaying) and a few market factors that would have usher the market up some, and now the powers that be are seeing how far they can go before they cause a slow down or sense resistance... I’ve got a lot of framer friends that are seeing a lot of skidding builders not wanting to get left holding a house they paid 40k too much to build, but it will take a decent number of people reacting to pull things back down...
Gotta put some rebar in that crete. It won't add much to the cost for that 4x8 section but overall that bar will add up
Probably 1500 on the house I just did for rebar , depending on wind or seismic zone the strapping requirements for framed could be 1k of it could be 6k like the beach houses i have features on here... so I left out highly variable parts because you’ll need to evaluate in your particular area to get a true comparison, but regardless the structural integrity will be incomparable:)
Brilliant, good job, very informative
You left out the cost of rebar for the ICF. I do like building with it! I haven't used Fox blocks. Mostly Integraspec. What height of lift can you pour concrete at with the Fox ? I can do 10' lifts with the Integraspec easily. Do the fox blocks come with pre formed corners?
Ya I addressed rebar in the comments, I left out ring shanks and Simpson straps on the framed wall too but it probably adds a few hundo to the cost of an icf house... trying to keep the vids to a watchable length and get all the info I want to say is rough, as I build vids I’ll try to keep the pertinent stuff in all of them! Fox do have preformed corners, they go both ways which is great, you don’t have a right and left corner you just turn them over! I do a lot of wild pours and tend to push icf forms with some funky monopour pools where I’m pouring 12” core walls on nothing but fab forms mono legs, so the height of the lift is less of a concern to me a log of times than the legs trying to shift if my bracing isn’t really good! That said, we pour a lot of crawl space homes and attach the subfloor to the hollow blocks 3-4’ up and then form the rest of the house and pour at once, usually 14-15’ which is what fox says is max and we’ve had no issues at all! A couple of years ago I was pouring a nudura wall with a rake that went from 11’ on one end to 19’ at the tip, we figured we’d take it slow and it would be fine, problem is that it was winter and the steam from the hot water made it impossible to see in the form until the concrete was 2’ from the top... we usually pour at a 4 slump with super p for flowability but it stacked up 17’ all at once in the middle of that wall and didn’t blow, bulge or anything... the pump operator and I were both freaked out about what could’ve happened but it’s a testament to the forms out performing what they are rated to do on pour day if you brace them right!
Gr8 Video Brother,
I built ICF 6yrs ago and I love it.
My biggest concern today is ... what is the latest regarding how BEST to handle bug and termite control these days. We are designing our retirement home now for Charlotte, NC area and I'm looking for the very best mitigation of bugs crawling inside between foam and concrete!
I PERSONALLY removed all traces of wood on the property and foundation... and spent a great deal with Permatreat to soak soil before pouring concrete ... and I pay for regular treatments of soil and home for bugs.
I want ICF for the new design but am looking for the VERY BEST practice!
Sounds like you’ve got it figured out, I’ve seen guys in the south East saying exterminators won’t treat or won’t guarantee treatment due to an infiltration being harder to detect, but we don’t have that issue with companies here in mo that I’m aware of... pretreat in his number one most important and regular treatment afterward! But what you did with mitigating the potential problems with enticements around the perimeter is an often overlooked step that it sound like you did!
Wow. I First Over Looked ICF Because It's Substantially More Expensive Then Cheap 2x4 Construction... But Then I Started Learning About R Valves And Efficiency etc. Then It Changed To 2x6 Construction With Closed Cell Foam Cavity Insulation And Exterior Insulation etc. That Narrows The Price Between ICF Even Before The Lumber Spike. Now It's Like The Same Price For Near Passive House Performance.
Exactly!
I'm in the process of planning a ICF home. I intend on going from the foundation (8" concrete core wall below grade) to the roof (6" concrete core wall above ground). I also want to use Lite Deck in my garage & stoop to utilize the space below. I'm interested in the your input on the transition details of these 3 components (8" wall, Lite Deck & 6" wall). I would like to use Lite Deck for my back deck also & skip the wood. A video on this subject would be great.
Sounds like you’ve got the system pegged! The whole package you are looking at is the best way to build out there, lite deck is super cool, I have a preview video coming out tomorrow that shows my next few videos, lot of icf pool building and a couple home tours, one of which is a 15000 sq ft house that’s all icf and light deck on 3 levels! I’m not sure about every block system but fox blocks are made to integrate from 6” to 8” and so on, the outside will remain flush and the inside sits lip to lip with about 5/8 overlap, I will try to show that specifically in an upcoming video on my own house where I’m planning to let my wife stack all the block for the small basement under our room addition to demonstrate the ease for a diy application! I’m also using lite deck on that project so I’ll detail how I do it!
@@all3pools I'll be using Fox Blocks, that's what my local Carrol Construction Supply has here in Lincoln, NE. I will say it's hard to find someone to install ICF around here though, the supply house has had a couple contractors in mind but not a lot of interest from them. I might be tackling this on my own. It's great to find some content on ICF's for reference, so keep up with the videos! I'd like to install an ICF pool also! Do you have anyone in my area I could reach out to for ICF? Thanks
I saw a stick frame construction company spokesman saying they didn't they don't do much ICF because of termites. Termites become a factor because they burrow into the insulation and get to the wood, and that ARAB and TERMINEX would not work on it because termite tracks would not be evident. Building Inspectors would not pass on any structures not carrying termite guarantees.
What is your response to this? The state is North Carolina.
I have a whole video on this mythical propaganda from the lumber industry on this channel from about 4 months ago….
I'm wonder how difficult it is to find an architect & engineer to design a custom home using ICF/Lite Deck.
Engineers typically love both, the systems are well engineered already so they can plug n play! Architects like it too but some modern guys love exposed concrete... form over function guys... so we end up doing a lot of pretty but far less efficient walls too...
The only issue I found was you have a very limited pool of ICF companies/contractors to pick from.
@@cab1277 my wife and built our ice home fourteen years ago. Was not hard! The company we got our blocks from provided us a lot of assistance and guidance at no cost. We would do it again!
Fantastic video!
Thank you! We’ll do our best to keep interesting content coming!
I have a 3400 square foot ICF house in North Carolina with a gas tankless hot water heater. I've been in the house for 8 years and love it. My power bill this month is $102. Needless to say I love it.
Great testimony!
Who was your builder m
Greatings Aaron, great video👍. In the video, it missing a material, Steel Rod to support that interior wall. That will make the cost much higher.
By the time of the video and end of the year, prices will raise even more.
Also, there are few house plans for that material type, which will increase the cost to update plans. Thank you, keep videos coming.
Sincerely,
😎Mr. Villalba 🇵🇷
They are now pursuing the use of fiberglass rebar so as steel gets more expensive, fiberglass may be the answer. The other thing that has become an issue now (2024) is the price of energy is skyrocketing. Where I live, we use home heating oil, and I have had several $800 tank fills this winter (which wasn't a cold one), and it will only keep going up with an addition to our carbon tax on the very near horizon and a 20+ % increase at that!
This was great - thank you.
ICF prices are also going up ! I am still going to use ICF for my shooting and home as I think it is better for what I am building.
They are, but unlike lumber it’s not as industry wide so it feels less colluded... nudura and buildblock already went up 15% plus(lot less that lumber) but the fox blocks that I’ve been using for a little over a year has been steady, they do expect to have to raise their price only 5% sometime in July but the heads up is giving us time to buy up the rest of this years jobs! Text me 417-861-8656 and I can hook you up with my rep there, they can drop ship just about anywhere!
@@all3pools can you tell us the pros and cons of using Fox Blocks versus Nudura blocks ?
Thanks
@@clydesolomon8533 i haven’t used Nudura, but we just moved into our house we built with fox. Good solid blocks, strong cross-ties and very solid corners. Their clip system to tie blocks to each other is simple and very effective. We had no shifting, floating or blowouts doing 30” lifts when we poured. Nudura’s fold to transport and store, so they ship cheaper and take up less room. But from what I understand they do not have as strong a corner, so you need to take some extra precautions to make sure they don’t shift or blowout during the pour. They also use a steel hinge pin in the cross-ties that allow them to fold. If you need to rip across that pin area for height, door or window opening or wall penetrations, it can be a pain. I think they are also 18” tall, where every other block is 16”, so they don’t stack evenly to 4’ or 8’ heights... beyond that they both male a solid wall with good attach points every 8”...
ICF more often than not has a slightly higher initial cost, however it is probably the most energy efficient system going. For several reasons. The main reason in my opinion because of the concrete pouring, although it is normally done a floor at a time, it becomes a monolithic structure eliminating any draughts through the walls, the joints between the windows and walls can very easily be super sealed against air flow, making the structure super air tight even after years of settling.
Thank you for your video. I see people talk about termite issues with ICF homes. Can you tell me where wood is used in an ICF home (apart from the roof).
Typically your interior walls and ceilings, as well as subfloors in crawl space and basement homes, that said with limber like it is we are currently looking harder at light deck concrete floors and steel studs! Termites can be an issue with any home, periodic treatment and proper landscaping are generally sufficient mitigators!
@@all3pools concrete floors sounds like a great idea. In MX the entire home is made out of concrete with steel rebar (including floor amd roof) and no interior wood walls and there is absolutely no issues with moisture penetration. The outside is plastered, inside walls and celinings finised smootg amd painted and you are good to go. Much longer life than wood frame homes.
VERY well done!!! Great work
Thanks!
Now try light steel 18 gag framing
I like steel framing on interior walls and it’s becoming more cost effective with the lumber craziness. I have a video on here addressing my main issue in regards to the outer outer walls which is thermal bridging, and also the fact you still have to sheath it and osb and plywood are the biggest problem effecting lumber costs atm!
@@all3pools use R max foam for outside and foam insulation solves those issues, especially in Texas it’s not a problem
Cut to the point how much per square foot framing and finished when you look at energy efficient building standard stick frame can’t compare
Did you forget the rebar required for icf? Steel is also a fortune. Still, I'd like my next home to be icf.
No, in this series of video I address it as often as I think of it, framing requires strapping, lots of strapping, in mo where I live, it’s probably 5-600 for a 2500 ft home, but in dauphin island(v flood zone and hurricane alley) the same house requires 6-7k in straps, yet they take the same rebar regardless of location pretty much, so the 2-3k in rebar may be more or less depending on your location, so I keep it rudimentary and leave the details to you
If my math isn't totally wrong the ICF costs about 80% more than a 2x8 walls. Or does it have to do with labour? I am thinking of building a 32x50 bungalow myself (8' walls) and the ICF walls came to 18k CAD and the the 2x8 walls came to 10k. Thats 80% more for the ICF ?! My 2x8 walls would be 24 o.c. and have 2x4 staggered so that there is no thermal bridging. I would have sheathing on the outside and dense packed cellulose on the inside giving me about an R27 for the walls (1x4 strapping on the inside to hang the drywall, this is also giving me 3/4" more room for cellulose so a total of 8" cellulose).
A concrete pump truck costs close to 1000 CAD. Rebar isn't cheap and I would have to rent bracing to brace the walls. Beside the much higher price, what really turns me off is bracing all the windows (+doors).
Just roughly for the ICF (total about 18k):
- 1k for the concrete pump truck
- 5k for the concrete
- 10 k for the forms
- 500 for the rebar
- 1k for renting+buying bracing
For the 2x8 walls (total about 10k):
- 1x4 Strapping 500
- 2x8 1750
- 2x4 1500
- cellulose 2k
- vapour barrier 200
- building wrap 250
- nails 350
- sheathing 3500
I kind of like the ICF (even took a Foxx Block training course because I did a foundation with it) but I think I can use the 8k for something else
The sheathing even if you use regular osb and not zip will run you north of 8k right now…. It’s $52/sheet, based on your dimensions you’ll need 160 sheets, so I think your math isn’t current at least in the lower 48…. That’s the only line item I checked but I’m guessing the lumber might be off too, that said maybe it’s not insane in Canada right now…. Plus the structural benefits, it’s a pretty easy upgrade
@@all3pools My math: I am using 1x6 t&G Spruce for sheathing. It covers 5", so a 1x6,16' covers 6.66 square feet, right? My wall area (the south has lots of windows but there are also other windows+doors) is about 1600 square feet. So I would need about 250 boards. One board is about 14$ so that comes to 3500 which is what I said :-)
I just checked your math and I have no idea how you end up with north of 8k for the sheathing.1600 square feet divided by 32 (one sheet of 4x8) means 50 sheets. 50 sheets at 52 is 2600 not 8000.
I also put 1x6 let in bracing in the corners for extra insurance.I build our house that way and it is not moving here in Nova Scotia (1x4 strapping on the inside, then drywall) :-) I figure it is the extra labour that might make ICF more competitive but if you just look at it from a material perspective ICF is almost twice the cost my 2x8 wall
What is the hurricane rating? Can you please send me the breakdowns for a 1,000sf house?
Wind rating is 250mph, you’d have to send me a specific plan
@@all3pools ty for your prompt reply. I can't send a pic through this format. 1,000sf is my goal. Your demo was for 2,000sf. I'll pause the video and extrapolate what I need. Do y'all also do the site prep?
Maybe I missed it but what about the difference of cost, if there is any, in assembly time or labor? Is there any savings there?
Icf labor is all over the board atm…. Honestly the industry grew so quickly this year guys were able to go up on labor way outpacing other niches…. So I honestly can’t say in your market, that said, if you are a diy-er, there’s significant savings, what I mean is you are able to replace foundation contractor and a good bit of framing, two things most diy types can’t do due to lack of equipment or enough people, so while we are in the midst of a labor shortage and high prices I’d say that’s the biggest value from a labor/savings angle…
@@all3poolsthank you for the fast reply! That helps!
One point if you are a DYI person wouldn't you save a whole lot in labor cuz you're actually pouring the forms yourself and placing the blocks together and it appears you don't need years of carpentry experience to use the blocks ?
The only thing I would like to add is is it real a "cheap" build if you insulated the stick frame with R19 bats? Don't get me wrong, the fiber doesn't compare to the spray, but is it considered "cheap"? I don't think so... Heck, the Zip panel is still the same 7/16 OSB, right? So now what is the cost analysis between the two? To be perfectly clear, I am not knocking the use of ICF. Soon I will be building my last home, at age 67, and I am strongly considering it for my full cellar..
What about the rebar cost? or is that included in the concrete cost?
Great question, I rounded up concrete costs a bit to try and cover it for time... I’d love to go into every hidden cost that surprise people new to building... I also didn’t factor in ring shank nails and framing nails for the outer walls... basically I try to keep my videos under 15 minutes and I was trying to simplify but be as accurate as possible. The extra rebar over a traditional foundation is about 1-1.5 tons so right now $1,000 to $1500, and framed walls probably use $500 more in nails than icf so it definitely makes a little difference, but I didn’t get into all the HVAC savings in great detail either! Thanks for the question!
@@JOEJOSEPHHones thank you, it’s something we really believe in!
@@all3pools I appreciate the knowledge!
Great video. What’s up with that panel over there?
I’m a hillbilly... and my buddy did something janky to power his electrostatic sprayer in my spray booth and I’m fairly oblivious to things in my shop until after I shoot a video and memorialize the culture;)
What about Hurricane strength? Stick built homes are too brittle to be built in Hurricane zones...
Also, you didn't do the double bottom plate / top plate 2x6 boards...
Thank you
ICF looks like the way to go. I'd go with that and probably brick on the outside just for that extra layer of durability. Stucco looks good as well, but I'm just not sure about long term care and maintenance of it. With ICF and really good windows, you can have an extremely energy efficient house. My next question would be "what about the roof?" Does anyone have any recommendations on a roof concept that doesn't make it the glaring weakness in the design? Is a high angle roof less prone to storm damage? I've seen a product that looks like Spanish tile but it is an engineered product and designed to withstand strikes from large hail. It also has a significant warranty. Does having the roof lined with solar panels help reduce the heating of the roof due to the solar panels taking the direct hit from the sun instead of the shingles/tile? Any recommendations for preventing heat buildup in upper floors and vaulted ceilings? Trying to figure out how to close that one gap.
There are a lot of factors in regards to the roof! Guys who really understand icf are imbedding hangers in the top of the concrete wall and getting amazing uplift protection, steeper roofs are great for snow loads but less great in wind prone areas... a lot of the modern builds we are doing have very shallow standing seam roofs and nearly flat tpo and they are framed with near subfloor strength... there are poured concrete roof systems out there but I haven’t gotten my hands on any yet to have a good working knowledge, but we do some light deck floors and if the work like that I will be very interested in getting further into it!
Ps, I highly recommend quaker windows, their vinyl and wood clad are top notch, but if you are going modern with big aluminum store front looking windows, their city view series emulates the look perfectly with actual residential quality glass and thermal breaks!
It depends on the house. If I were to use ICF I would build modern contemporary with a flat roof. Just remember any roof material used is only as good as the installer
Didnt factor in the concrete pump or rebar or brace rental
Just curious…does the drywall attach directly to the form on the inside and does the siding attach directly to the form on the outside? Or is there another step needed?
Hangs direct on inside and out
Is there any problem with termites and ICF? I read that in some states no one will do a termite inspection because you can’t see the damage from the outside. I’m also in the Springfield MO area and I’m not sure if that’s a problem here
I suppose they could tunnel through in search of wood in the roof... but it’s a much longer journey from the ground than stick frame, and periodic perimeter treatment would render it highly unlikely... here in Missouri I’ve never seen it but I too see the comments... I think it’s kind of like people saying that icf is too tight, it’s a lack of understanding of current state of the art... thanks for the feedback!
Ps if you are in spfd and want to see these projects up close feel free to shoot me a message!
Excellent video. Thank you for the detailed and clear explanation. Definitely going ICF for my next and final house. Subscribed.
Excellent! Thank you!
Lol, a true shop in flux has a cut out of sheetrock above the mains panel.
Always! But I will tell you doing these RUclips vids has made me more conscious of the state of the shop, been working on getting it spiffed up lol
in sept of 2022 concrete has went up 37% in the last 60 days.
plus rebar and bracing lumber
You should watch my latest update vid, I address why that wasn’t included, there’s a reason, and bracing lumber? If you are referring to 2x4 whalers with zonts they aren’t one time use and other icf bracing is all metal, and typically provided by the contractor
Great informative video that so many are looking for without a whole bunch of unnecessary chatter.
Wish we had someone to do that up here in Canada.
Ya nudura is the go to block up there and they’re great but they keep raising their price... I don’t know if fox blocks delivers up there...
Fox and Logix blocks are in Canada. There are a bunch more too but Those are the ones I’m familiar with. I use Logix but am looking at trying Nudura. No suppliers stock them in my area so haven’t tried them.
You left out the Rebar that is required to go inside there.
The price of everything is going through the roof so nobody will be able to afford a house. If they can it will be half the house that they dreamed of. This is ridiculous I hope the feds raise interest rates and stop buying back bonds to get control of inflation.
Well, at least such houses and not these wooden disposable chicken coops where Americans live. And even better brick - the best building material has not been invented.
u great man, thats what we want to know: price first, than options according to budget...or we go back to cob buildings...
Thanks for the effort and creating this video. I just new in this and was wondering why did you miss three cost of the ICF:
1-cost of the steel rebar which you need.
2- cost of delivering concrete which could be quite expensive. Cost of concrete per yard is around $110 and then they charge $60 for delivering and pumping would be extra.
3- cost of braces whether making or renting.
Ya I didn’t go down every rabbit hole because I really try to keep the vids under 15 minutes, I should have included rebar on icf and all the Fastner(nails, screws, tap cons, redheads) on wood frame, I did break it down further in a comment... the price I quoted in my market in the ozarks for concrete was a delivered price! And the pump is basically the same price wether you pump a short wall and frame or pump a full icf, there will be a yardage charge that might make the pump cost a couple hundred more if your walls are really tall but the pump cost exists for both types of building! Where do you live that concrete delivered is $170/yd??
Lastly bracing, if you are hiring this done, bracing will be provided and included for the price I mentioned above, if you choose to go DIY, there are some of us who will rent our zonts and zuckles, and the concrete plant I use rents the standard icf verticals bracing for around $500/wk which is generally sufficient for a single level pour, so you avoid all labor costs associated and incur a minimal rental fee...
@@all3pools i live in Waterloo,ON.
Do you know contractor around here?
Again, I like you video, don't forget there is no doubt ICF is better, so if it cost the same, it will get higher demand and will get more. expensive.
I mean, someone has to deliver the wood for a traditional stick built house too. Stick built homes also have to be braced for plumbness until you nail it all together. You're nit picking with the exception of the rebar. However, rebar isn't filled in every ICF block. Say, it could run on the second row and fifth rows. So, using Daves 4x8 sheet as the example, you'd have two 4 ft pieces of rebar on the second row and two 4ft pieces on the fifth row. Besides, he's making the comparison for now since wood is expensive, not forever. Plus, ICF has way better sound barrier and you don't have to worry about rot.
Very ture. To pump concrete around here in Canada (Nova Scotia) is close to 1000 CAD. Rebar isn't cheap (definitely a lot more than nails) and you have to rent the bracing or spend a lot of time screwing lumber (which lumber- if you are building with ICF you won't have much lumber). I am trying to figure out whether I should go for ICF or for a 2x8 wall with dense packaged cellulose. So far I figure the 2x8 wall would be 10k and the ICF 18 k (thats doing all the work myself, so just materials). I would have a much better insulated wall with the 2x8 wall (24 o.c. with 2x4 staggered so not thermal bridging).
Also please do a comparison on dimensional lumber, vs, i-beam and poured floor construction
Absolutely!
What's the rough cost for a 64x40 rectangle with 9 ft walls?
Are you a builder?
I'm local to your area.
Give me a shout mon-fri:)
Subbing for the great info on price. Tried to contact a local supplier and he wouldn't tell me anything. Wanted to get blueprints before he'd tell me the cost of the blocks. I oversaw an ICF build after the pour and it was easy to work with. Drywalling was a breeze.
Anytime you are interested I can get u a drop shipped price, at least it will keep suppliers in your market honest!
@@all3pools Yes please! My email is myfortressconstruction@gmail.com. I've only ever seen fox blocks but the nudura makes a lot of sense, especially on the shipping side of things.
@@all3pools could you get me a price as well? Wife and I were going to put up a steel building to finish out as a home but now I'm considering something i never thought i would! Steel prices are high as a kite and still rising, so I'm considering options.
Does the ICF manufacture company provide the information for CA building code?
Yes
Great video, thank you. I like that ICF idea , makes sense . Is there a way to get contact s to who can put up a ICF building In Springfield MO area please
We do it, and we are based in Springfield!
How can I contact you?
update the prices from year to year...if necessary
I’ve done updated snapshots every 3-4 months since this vid came out:)
Does anyone know a an ICF builder in the Knoxville, TN area? Have land and looking to build.
I will check with they guys at fox and see who orders from them in the area and who is a certified installer there! Stand by!