I just did an ICF basement, it was on the lake and in a floodplain, so it's only 5'5" high and acts as a basement but also keeps the house above the flood level. Your prices are spot on, concrete was $4500, forms, rebar, parging, damp proofing, etc, were $8500, pump truck was $1200. All in it cost me $15k. Which is pretty reasonable considering most companies here are charging $30k for a regular basement. A regular basement is no beuno here, I need something mold proof due to the risk of floods. ICF can sit in water all day and won't mold, it also doesn't hold water. I'm also using a heat pump, so I have to really seal the house up. It fit my needs perfectly, and my house isn't that big so I did it by myself in 2 days. Spot on also about being perfect for custom houses. It's more labour intensive, definitely you'd never see it in production builds. I think the big benefit is you don't have to get gouged by contractors, I'm finding these contractors are charging $1000/hr when you run the numbers, insane.
Enjoyed the video. A couple of things i really wish all of these comparisons would add. I liked that on a standard poured basement you added a higher quality insulation. Yet i didn't see any studs add to hold up that bat insulation. I also would like people to ad all the labor cost in to these. Like the time it takes to add the studs on the poured basement wall, staple vapor barrier, and install the insulation. When you add the extra man hours to meet the icf wall performance it takes the cost of the block and negates a large portion of it. You even stated it in this video. Pull down your bracing and remove the block strapping and your done. Just a thought to make this comparison more honest. I also agree the long term heating and cooling is way superior.
Yes it's difficult to compare apples to apples because they are very different. It's also tough as labour costs differ a lot depending on where the work is being done. Thanks for the comment!
I live in the southeastern US. Unlike Canada where the ground temperature can go down well below freezing, In more temperate climates, the ground temperature might be around 55F and doesn't change that much year round. If the ICF core is thermally coupled to the ground, then it acts to moderate between the indoor and outdoor temperature, helping cool in the summer and warm in the winter. So the effective R value of ICF in a more temperature climate is much greater. So, keep in mind that your results will vary depending on your climate..
There are lots of conscious builders out there! 😉 Maybe a few unconscious ones but that's no secret. No implications, just smart renovations and high performance builds.
Yup. A 3 day form rental can easily make up to the difference, or way more, in his totals. That's also assuming you can actually get the foundation poured in 3 days. Sudden changes in weather might throw a wrench in the works. Once you include form rentals, ICF wins the cost to effective R value battle.
@@ndenise3460 Most specifications I come across indicate 7 day wet cure. However, 3 days is usually sufficient prior to stripping forms, as long as a cure compound is applied.
Yes but cold weather pours(Canada eh) off keeps the heat in allowing a longer stronger cure. Plus many contractors here strip forms the next day, which explains a lot of the cracked foundations. Once cement freezes, curing stops
The comment about ICFs not being insulative enough is flawed. Take for example BuildBlock. The Standard block has 2.5 of EPS @ R4.2 per in on each side giving you R10.5 on each side of the concrete core for a total > R21. However their Knockdowns can be up to 24" thick - 6" concrete core leaving 18" or EPS which is > R75 with up to > R65 on one side and a total of > R75. On top of this you can add more insulation on the faces of the wall. By the way. I just don't think water will get through 15.5" EPS plus 6" of concrete with a PRAH additive and another 2.5" of interior EPS on an above ground vertical wall. The Perfect Block is another alternative ICCF which uses used EPS and concrete. It is UV, termite, and fireproof, which can be advantageous, but it is heavier like Faswall and Nextcem.
I know that you said the labor comparison is tricky but it would still be helpful if you tried (and explained the assumptions). I imagine the labor for ICF would be less because of the time saved during the stacking of the "bricks" but I don't know for sure.
@@Theconsciousbuilder : I saw some people doing a Fab-Form/Fastfoot footing together with the ICF forms, so the alignment is done perfectly from the beginning. With a normal footing, the first ICF course has to be either shimmed or rasped to assure it is plane. Commonly it takes takes time and a lot of foam to plane the first ICF course .
You are tyrying to compare icf to a typical concrete wall using wrong info rockwoll is R4.2 per inch not R6 per inch and icf is R25 tyical or more demading on the maker of the block the r22 is the cheapest you can buy. As for as nexcem (dursiol) you said it was only R8 but that ranges from R8 for just the block to R32 with insulation and you can get even higher r-values out it with changing the type of insulation used. Also depending where you live 8" concrete wall is not min. code its more like 10-12" which in that case makes icf alot cheaper than a typical concrete wall.
Hey thanks for watching the video, we made a typo on the text, it should have said 1.5" = R6 which is what we said in the video. When you say R25 are you talking nominal or effective R value. You're right durisol has a lot of other options, we just wanted to give people an idea of the cost so if people are interested in reducing their carbon footprint, they can do some more research on their offerings. Where we live we have done some 6" foundations with ICF. For your statement "a 10-12" foundation makes icf a lot cheaper than a typical concrete wall" are you comparing the same effective R values for the final completed wall assembly?
You did not introduce the cost of energy in heating and cooling your model. Overtime the cost to live comfortably in a home with a conventionaly poured foundation is going to be much more. With an ICF system you have the option of a continuous thermal and vapor barrier. ICF homes are much more quiet. They are much more resiliant. Wood framed homes simply cannot perform as well as ICF over the life of the building. From a dollar to dollar wood framed homes are initially less expensive, but are much more expensive over time.
Rebar needs to be at least 4 inch from edge of concrete here. So would need 10 inch icf block. A 8 inch icf wall is the weakest masonry wall system actually weaker than 6 inch poured wall or solid brick because plastic ties in the wall. I use cmu block. Which makes the 8 inch icf block over 4 times the price for cmu block. And I core non grouted cores with vermiculite uping the insulation value to r7. So for around 12000 I can do a 30x60 basement. We insulate the outside to keep moisture flowing out. I actually come in cheaper than poured wall because of concrete price. And you end up with a drier basement less likely to mold. An icf wall is easier to tear down thou. How do you fix a leaking icf wall?
Just because there is plastic in an ICF wall does not make it weaker than a poured wall. Understand that there is plastic rebar added to walls to make walls stronger in poured walls.
I don't see why not as long as there is no way for the weather to get to the outside of that wall. I'm not sure of the circumstances but it sound like it would be an issue no matter what product you use.
Just looked at foxblock. 45CAD+gouge and screw tax about 9$ sqft of wall for the form. So 8600$ for the 30*30*8 basement. Plus cement, rebar, Labour etc.....The
I mean, has anyone really been in a port foundation basement and felt, oh wow, it’s a little draughty and the walls seem weak. I really feel we’re at the points of how much better and more efficient can things really get without it costing way too much money and making it not worthwhile. There is a reason new home construction requires an HRV. Homes are built so tight even at minimum building codes.
I was all in on this.....till i saw they are $350!!!! PER BLOCK!!. No way stryofoam legos cost $350!!. Coat per aqft.....over $15......cinderblock?.....under $2! All things considerd.....im simply not paying $350 for foam blocks.....sorry. 350 for 1 foam block
Ok I get icf is more efficient. But unless the environment and your carbon footprint is above and beyond your most important thing, you simply have to do the math and figure out when you think you will make it back of the money.
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I just did an ICF basement, it was on the lake and in a floodplain, so it's only 5'5" high and acts as a basement but also keeps the house above the flood level. Your prices are spot on, concrete was $4500, forms, rebar, parging, damp proofing, etc, were $8500, pump truck was $1200. All in it cost me $15k. Which is pretty reasonable considering most companies here are charging $30k for a regular basement. A regular basement is no beuno here, I need something mold proof due to the risk of floods. ICF can sit in water all day and won't mold, it also doesn't hold water. I'm also using a heat pump, so I have to really seal the house up. It fit my needs perfectly, and my house isn't that big so I did it by myself in 2 days. Spot on also about being perfect for custom houses. It's more labour intensive, definitely you'd never see it in production builds. I think the big benefit is you don't have to get gouged by contractors, I'm finding these contractors are charging $1000/hr when you run the numbers, insane.
hi, what is the sqft of a basement??
Enjoyed the video. A couple of things i really wish all of these comparisons would add. I liked that on a standard poured basement you added a higher quality insulation. Yet i didn't see any studs add to hold up that bat insulation. I also would like people to ad all the labor cost in to these. Like the time it takes to add the studs on the poured basement wall, staple vapor barrier, and install the insulation. When you add the extra man hours to meet the icf wall performance it takes the cost of the block and negates a large portion of it. You even stated it in this video. Pull down your bracing and remove the block strapping and your done. Just a thought to make this comparison more honest. I also agree the long term heating and cooling is way superior.
Yes it's difficult to compare apples to apples because they are very different. It's also tough as labour costs differ a lot depending on where the work is being done. Thanks for the comment!
I live in the southeastern US. Unlike Canada where the ground temperature can go down well below freezing, In more temperate climates, the ground temperature might be around 55F and doesn't change that much year round. If the ICF core is thermally coupled to the ground, then it acts to moderate between the indoor and outdoor temperature, helping cool in the summer and warm in the winter. So the effective R value of ICF in a more temperature climate is much greater. So, keep in mind that your results will vary depending on your climate..
Love that the name of this channel implies that most builders are unconscious
There are lots of conscious builders out there! 😉 Maybe a few unconscious ones but that's no secret. No implications, just smart renovations and high performance builds.
Right, but the word you’re looking for is “conscientious”, no?
Love these very informative videos. Thank you.
You are so welcome! Thanks for watching!
Does the Rockwool installing it by itself? I doubt it, you have to add those costs too.
You should include the cost of formwork in the conventional concrete method.
Yup. A 3 day form rental can easily make up to the difference, or way more, in his totals. That's also assuming you can actually get the foundation poured in 3 days. Sudden changes in weather might throw a wrench in the works. Once you include form rentals, ICF wins the cost to effective R value battle.
Forms should be left in.place for a.minimum of 3 days. So take that into account
@@ndenise3460 Most specifications I come across indicate 7 day wet cure. However, 3 days is usually sufficient prior to stripping forms, as long as a cure compound is applied.
Yes but cold weather pours(Canada eh) off keeps the heat in allowing a longer stronger cure. Plus many contractors here strip forms the next day, which explains a lot of the cracked foundations. Once cement freezes, curing stops
Awesome video for comparison. I'm still gonna go with icf just for the fact that diyers can do it.
Thanks Bilel, great to hear it was helpful. Good luck on your project!
In your spreadsheet what price are you using for your ICF forms per form? Is this price the delivered cost?
The comment about ICFs not being insulative enough is flawed. Take for example BuildBlock. The Standard block has 2.5 of EPS @ R4.2 per in on each side giving you R10.5 on each side of the concrete core for a total > R21. However their Knockdowns can be up to 24" thick - 6" concrete core leaving 18" or EPS which is > R75 with up to > R65 on one side and a total of > R75. On top of this you can add more insulation on the faces of the wall. By the way. I just don't think water will get through 15.5" EPS plus 6" of concrete with a PRAH additive and another 2.5" of interior EPS on an above ground vertical wall.
The Perfect Block is another alternative ICCF which uses used EPS and concrete. It is UV, termite, and fireproof, which can be advantageous, but it is heavier like Faswall and Nextcem.
I know that you said the labor comparison is tricky but it would still be helpful if you tried (and explained the assumptions). I imagine the labor for ICF would be less because of the time saved during the stacking of the "bricks" but I don't know for sure.
It takes a lot longer to form an ICF foundation but you can save on interior framing and insulation.
@@Theconsciousbuilder : I saw some people doing a Fab-Form/Fastfoot footing together with the ICF forms, so the alignment is done perfectly from the beginning. With a normal footing, the first ICF course has to be either shimmed or rasped to assure it is plane. Commonly it takes takes time and a lot of foam to plane the first ICF course .
You are tyrying to compare icf to a typical concrete wall using wrong info rockwoll is R4.2 per inch not R6 per inch and icf is R25 tyical or more demading on the maker of the block the r22 is the cheapest you can buy. As for as nexcem (dursiol) you said it was only R8 but that ranges from R8 for just the block to R32 with insulation and you can get even higher r-values out it with changing the type of insulation used.
Also depending where you live 8" concrete wall is not min. code its more like 10-12" which in that case makes icf alot cheaper than a typical concrete wall.
Hey thanks for watching the video, we made a typo on the text, it should have said 1.5" = R6 which is what we said in the video. When you say R25 are you talking nominal or effective R value. You're right durisol has a lot of other options, we just wanted to give people an idea of the cost so if people are interested in reducing their carbon footprint, they can do some more research on their offerings. Where we live we have done some 6" foundations with ICF. For your statement "a 10-12" foundation makes icf a lot cheaper than a typical concrete wall" are you comparing the same effective R values for the final completed wall assembly?
You did not introduce the cost of energy in heating and cooling your model. Overtime the cost to live comfortably in a home with a conventionaly poured foundation is going to be much more. With an ICF system you have the option of a continuous thermal and vapor barrier. ICF homes are much more quiet. They are much more resiliant. Wood framed homes simply cannot perform as well as ICF over the life of the building. From a dollar to dollar wood framed homes are initially less expensive, but are much more expensive over time.
This was just an upfront cost comparison. There are other factors to consider. Thanks for watching!
Rebar needs to be at least 4 inch from edge of concrete here. So would need 10 inch icf block. A 8 inch icf wall is the weakest masonry wall system actually weaker than 6 inch poured wall or solid brick because plastic ties in the wall. I use cmu block. Which makes the 8 inch icf block over 4 times the price for cmu block. And I core non grouted cores with vermiculite uping the insulation value to r7. So for around 12000 I can do a 30x60 basement. We insulate the outside to keep moisture flowing out. I actually come in cheaper than poured wall because of concrete price. And you end up with a drier basement less likely to mold. An icf wall is easier to tear down thou. How do you fix a leaking icf wall?
Just because there is plastic in an ICF wall does not make it weaker than a poured wall. Understand that there is plastic rebar added to walls to make walls stronger in poured walls.
Is it possible to use ICF when building on property line and there is another house on the other side and there is no gap in between homes?
I don't see why not as long as there is no way for the weather to get to the outside of that wall. I'm not sure of the circumstances but it sound like it would be an issue no matter what product you use.
Just looked at foxblock. 45CAD+gouge and screw tax about 9$ sqft of wall for the form. So 8600$ for the 30*30*8 basement. Plus cement, rebar, Labour etc.....The
Miss Guided Information!
ICF Can have ADDED Insulation to Adjust to ANY R-Value Spec.
Rock wool is R3-3.3 per inch.
I mean, has anyone really been in a port foundation basement and felt, oh wow, it’s a little draughty and the walls seem weak. I really feel we’re at the points of how much better and more efficient can things really get without it costing way too much money and making it not worthwhile. There is a reason new home construction requires an HRV. Homes are built so tight even at minimum building codes.
I was all in on this.....till i saw they are $350!!!! PER BLOCK!!. No way stryofoam legos cost $350!!. Coat per aqft.....over $15......cinderblock?.....under $2! All things considerd.....im simply not paying $350 for foam blocks.....sorry. 350 for 1 foam block
I am not sure where you got the price from but they are more like $10-$30/form (liteform - Menards), I would suggest checking the prices again
Every German I know drinks their beer at room temperature 😂
Ok I get icf is more efficient. But unless the environment and your carbon footprint is above and beyond your most important thing, you simply have to do the math and figure out when you think you will make it back of the money.