ICF Review! Fox Blocks vs Nudura?
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- A lot of you have reached out asking what i think of Nudura or why my previous videos have mainly shown Fox Blocks... This video tries to get into the pros and cons of both of these great forms and why I ultimately feel the way i do at this current moment in the ICF market.
I highlight the Pros of Nudura
-foldable for easy shipping
-Duralok technology
-Duramax block sizing
and the cons
-weaker corners
-hard to rip lengthwise
-very expensive
and i get into Fox Blocks and why i ultimately use them for most of my projects currently
-made locally so shipping is a non issue
- old fashioned clips are stronger than the duralok of nudura making them a better form for difficult monopours
-price point significantly lower than nudura for very similar quality and performance
-easy to rip
cons
-harder to transport the cubed pallets
-bright white color leads to sunburn
Both are great products and neither is a bad choice, with current price increases i cant see paying the extra for nudura until market conditions allow more competitive pricing out of a canadian manufacturer. 
Хобби
Thanks for the video!
Interesting that you like the Fox better…I’ve done both, but have found Nudura to be significantly faster. And with time being money…they end up cheaper. In my experience at least 2x-3x faster.
I’m gonna list my pros for Nudura. Realizing of course, that each person has there own preference and I respect that. Just disagree.
Pros:
1- Material mass. Nudura takes up 1/3 the space of your job site that Fox would. No pallets to have to dispose of, no cardboard packaging.
2- Clips. Each fox block requires 3 clips. 2 horizontal, one vertical. 2 Fox blocks make up the same linear distance of 1 Nudura block. Each Nudura block requires 2 horizontal clips, 0 vertical. That translates to 6 equivalent Fox clips to every 2 Nudura clips. That’s 3x the clips…3x the labor.
3- Block height. In todays market of 9’ basements, Nudura breaks at 9’ with no need for an “optimizer” course. Fox requires 7 courses for 9’, Nudura is 6 courses. If you are doing 8’ basement, then Fox has an advantage.
4- Nudura pre-buck is the best I’ve worked with so far. Previously, I used the Fox Buck system vs treated lumber, because of the concrete embedding into the form and eliminating buck/concrete separation and ensuing air leakage. However, Fox Buck has very poor holding power for large doors. It’s great for windows, but not for doors. It also requires that when installed the block be watched closely for linear bulging for any length greater than 4’(factory Fox Buck length). Enter Nudura Pre-Buck, 16’ factory length engineered wood with concrete embedment groove. Essentially, a straight, engineered wood 16’ length of Fox Buck. My only complaint with them, is the weight and cost. But you get what you pay for, and that weight offers great holding strength for large doors.
I will agree with him on the Nudura corners. One has to be thorough in the assembly of the web inserts. We have also found that we benefit greatly by attaching a plywood strap on the short leg of the interior and exterior of the bottom 3 courses of a full basement wall, otherwise, you will experience some spreading of the joints between the corner blocks and the adjoining full block during the pour.
Nudura also has a great selection of RUclips videos. I seem to remember Fox having a decent amount as well, but it has been a couple of years now.
Love the channel! Thanks for all the information. I’d kind of like to meet up and work with you on a couple of your ICF pool installs. I have customers asking about them, but I have zero experience.
Keep up the good work!
Love the straight talk. Telling like it is, is not common. Thanks for the great info. 👍
Thanks! We always will!
Really appreciate your video. Will be watching all of your videos from now on. Thanks a bunch
Thanks
Thanks, keep it up. Your instructional videos are the gold standard for new construction. You are completely honest and give all sides of the process.
Thank you!
Helpful video explaining the pros and cons of each. Thanks
Nice job. I have used ICF for many years and many types. I appreciate those of you that make the effort to educate the public. Subscribed.
Any issues with mold it too moist air?
I'm about to build my own home and I'm very thankful for this video
Awesome video your have a great way of explaining things, cool channel! Much love from New Zealand
Glad I discovered all your videos on icf
Thinking of using ICFs soon in another project for our Off-Grid home.
Thanks for the info, I'm looking at building my own custom home in TN and checking out what's on the market now .
I love your videos. I'm an architect who doesn't know a whole lot about ICF, but have found the right channel! Thanks 👍
Thank you!
check with Pacific ICF for details on some blocks
If your employees can’t remember to put one plastic web in the nudura corner how are they going to put hundreds of metal clips in the correct location on the fox blocks?
They put it in, but one side or the other can miss but sound like it snaps in, bottom line the nudura corners are simply a weak link in an otherwise pretty solid chain... I’ve poured a ton of both, I had 5 corners in a row blow on a pour about 5 years ago with correctly installed webs, turned out to be some sort of manufacturing issue as all 5 were out of the same 6 pack... also missing a clip is unlikely to cause a blow out, especially just one, where as missing that web will do it every time... I’m not bagging on nudura at all, with the exception of their price increases recently which seem out of line with the market as a whole, I was trying to compare and contrast honestly, as I’ve worked with both extensively
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 Appreciate your review bro. I've never worked with either, and i honestly thought nudura would be the better product.. i think ill give fox blocks a try.
As a small builder climbing the ropes, things like blow outs cause me a lot of grief and setback. I appreciate your train of thought. Easier the system, less mistakes, better profit margins.
I wonder why nudura doesnt just make their corners static, seems like the it would be the better product.
I also like that the fox corners are longer.
Give him a break, it's Memphis. 😂
Thanks for the great videos, very informative.
You’re welcome, we’ll try to keep it up
Great info. Please continue doing more videos
Thanks! Will do
💯A Canadian review! Love that! Your vid was so important. You presented well to make it easy to understand and follow. I heard of Nutura just a few months ago. I thought only Fox blocks were out in the market. So glad we googled to find comparison and landed on your channel. Fox block appears to be the way to go and it is sold at local home hardware here in Rustico. The height difference of each block really does make a significant different...Fox matches measurements for plywood attachment etc. Keep it simple and in the status quo eh! Thank you so much from Prince Edward Island having moved here in 2006.🇨🇦👍
If you need any help sourcing block or bracing shoot me a message or call Chris at 417-380-4996
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 Thank you. Here on Prince Edward Island, Canada, the local village near by, North Rustico, sells Fox Blocks. So looks like we are all set for sourcing where to purchase it. Also, I saw in your presenation that Cape Pele, in New Brunswick, is a supplier...well, Cape Pele is just on the other side of the PEI confed bridge, so closer than heading to Halifax or Montreal. I think we are all set, agree?👍
Great video! Have you ever used Lightforms they fold up like the nundura but corners are like the food blocks! I do like how they lock the fox blocks!
I am a retired building contractor and in 2000 my wife and I moved to the Florida Keys we constructed our home using Nudura in 2008 we moved into our new home. In September 2017 we were hit with hurricane Irma we had no damage other than Landscaping, a couple of other points however I would like to make Nudura plastic web runs all the way top and bottom to the form which I believe is a asset, also the 18 inch tall form works very well for 9 foot walls. Over the years I have had the opportunity to work with a total of four other ICF companies and I believe your representation of the two companies were very good keep up the good work Norm
Great testimonial! Fox also has full height webs! I don’t think I’d care for a form that doesn’t!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 thank you for pointing that out, I was not aware of the fact that they changed the web configuration to extend both to the top and bottom in the past I noticed that they tend to settle down a bit without having that plastic web extending to the top and bottom, furthermore occasionally when attaching drywall I would miss that plastic web because it did not extend all the way up keep up the good work
Are you having any mold issues?
Or health issues from the foam and concrete?
@@Missy-sx9zv No I’ve never experienced any issues
Nice comparison. I was leaning towards using Nudura as my building inspector commented that he liked how they have a dedicated water proofing membrane that holds better. However, today I called back the supplier I inquired to 18 months ago and its price increased by 40% ! Which is why I tuned in to your video! Thanks. Also looking at Amvic up here in Canada.
PACIFIC ICF is a BC supplier for AMVIC. Did you select R-30 or R-22 ICF ?
Another great video. Thanks! Update to my termite treatment plan inquiries. Orkin rep plus another firm, Palmetto Exterminators, told me they can't cover any home with foam/soil contact, even if waterproofed. They have had termites get behind the foam next to the concrete (where it cant be seen or treated), and move up the wall to the wood windows, doors, and the roof. There must be 6 inches of space between ground and foam to be able to get on a termite protection program with them. We may build the basement and crawl space in concrete only...code is 10" thick walls. Then pour the 1st floor (concrete with radiant tubing). Then stack the 6" core ICF on top of that. This way there is no foam soil contact.
Shouldn't you backfill with gravel anyway for the drain tile instead of clay/dirt so it doesn't clog up? Where I live, the clay or hard pan clogs up any fabric you use with the rain or snow melt. I've found it's more beneficial to totally backfill with gravels over your drain tile that surrounds the basement. Plus, when a heavy rain comes or before you have the gutters installed, the rain just falls to the gravels and drains out the pipe. This way, you won't get that dreaded red clay stains all over your basement or crawlspace walls.
another pro to fox block, much easier for most customers to find a distributors since they work with big box stores as well. On nudura though, fairly positive they manufacture in Georgia as well. One pro you didn't mention is the longer length of nudura makes it easier (for me anyway) to do radius walls, say, if a fella is building a steam ship themed cabin ;) great video sir.
Have you put it in Fox Block's ear that a grey tint would really help out with the reflective properties...
Great video, and thanks for the information.
What is the r value of the fox blocks? Aren't you install those? Do you have to also then go and install walls on the inside with insulation??
Thank you for this video!!!
This was perfect timing for me! Thank you! Currently working on designing a shop/apartment project and was weighing the options of these exact products.
There’s a lot of blocks out there to choose from and in my market these are the main ones you see, most are really good, if the have 4 way layouts and full height webs the rest is financial... find the best block in your market for the best price, or if that price isn’t right the guys who sell to me will drop ship anywhere in the US, so if you can’t find a deal email me:)
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 what is your email... getting ready...bu Falicornia prices up to the sky
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 I’m in north Idaho, limited co tractors & suppliers. We do have a company in Spokane that offers amvic , what’s your thoughts or experience ?? Meeting for quotes this week
Hell yes! I’ve been doing research on these, and was going to mention you in summary video. Any difference if using Amdeck or Quadeck?
Love Perfect Block, but can’t get past the idea of foam portions of the wall being full depth.
Thanks! I haven’t used either of those blocks because distribution isn’t as available in my market, that said the plastics co that subcontracts the production for fox in Nixa mo also makes multiple other brands so assuming many of the manufacturers of the other block companies had a way to allow for direct pick up like fox, it would then come down to price! Like I said in the vid I think most of the bigger companies all make good blocks that all have similar user friendly designs, so in my mind it will come down to availability in your market and price! I just won’t pay a lot more for Bells and whistles that make things 1% easier!:). Thanks for the feedback!
same reason i passed on Perf.Block... lack of that continuous sound & mass barrier doesn't seem worth the added insect/fire resistance, esp if you plan on an outer wall with air-gap & radiant barrier before a stucco siding anyway.
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 oh snap ! Nixa is only 2 hrs from me. This video just made it a simple choice to go with fox blocks over nudura for my diy build. How does a person go about picking up directly from the Nixa location?
Great breakdown.
Thanks man. Very informative. 👍
. The same clips that you are using with fox block are available for Nudura. These would definitely be necessary when doing a monolithic pour. Shipping costs, at least here in Canada, are extremely relevant with diesel costs being what they are today, so the folding forms are a real plus. They are a little bit more difficult to cut than an all plastic form as you say but if you are building a foundation or full height wall system one would assume you have the right tools.
Really appreciate your videos, especially with the pools! It is great to see the enthusiasm and passion for your craft! Reminds me of myself in younger years. Keep up the great videos, and work. You have done some truly magnificent pools !
Ya in Canada I can see Nudura having better economics than we currently see here…. Other than their corners they are a top notch form that I’ve always enjoyed working with…. Also, we’ve gone a slightly different direction with our monopour pools and their will be a video this fall that’s going to give a tip of the cap to Nudura! I will say nuduras clips aren’t as handy as fox blocks, they don’t have the little tail on them and it’s way easier to get pinched putting them in…. That said my supplier is starting to use an aftermarket clip and I think they are suppose to work with multiple brands and they’re 40% cheaper…. So we’ll see
Have you looked at using Helix Micro Rebar in ICF pour instead of std rebar; how about comparison on interior insulation with rockwool vs spray foam....if doing std frame construction. Have you looked at Stronghold ICF product?
Great presentation and explanation mate! NEW SUB 🙏🏻
Thank you!
Awesome video, extremely helpful for me and my future DIY ICF home build. Do you have any opinions on any of the graphite impregnated blocks that some companies (Logix, Amvic, etc) are offering? The 15%+ R-Value increase looks good on paper.
I like all the innovation, haven’t had my hands on any of it tho
Great information, thank you 👏
Great video. Quick question, we are preparing to build our forever home. We are researching wall building systems and there is a plethora of info and choices out there but we are seriously considering the Perfect Block. What is your opinion on that product vs the ones you reviewed in this video?
They aren't any perfect blocks. At the end of the day all the blocks give you the same benefits, the only thing that changes is price wise.
@@icfwallsystems Steve Baczek, who is an architect engineer builder has weighed in on this subject. Your right nothing is perfect. Although, the perfect block has many positive attributes if used properly.
Very informative, Thanks.
wanted to do an insulated foundation with these as im adding a radiant heated slab to my building but thought cost was a factor until i found a deal i couldnt pass up @ 2 bucks a block. now that i have the forms, this kind of info is priceless. this DIY project is going to be easy. thanx for the vids :)
will try to keep them coming
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 please send me your email please econstratg
We’ve been using Foxblocks and really have a confidence in using them. Menards near us quit selling them but we were able to get them from another local supplier. We are in Wyoming and we are experiencing the rising costs of materials all around. It is very frustrating. However, I actually saved money with our foxblocks and am very thankful for that!
I can tell you from talking to there corporate guys they are trying to avoid big price increases🤞🏼
Have any bracing for rent in Wyoming?
@@flackthat7 Our local Rocky Mt Premix has Plumwall bracing for rent. We just finished our current build’s basement walls, using plumwall for the first time. Foxblocks were easy before but the plumwall bracing made it even nicer!
@@914934 Good to know! We will be building our home in Wyoming soon. Thanks for the info.
Hi there can I ask how much per sq (or per sq meter/sq yard etc) foot is your icf (supply only) costing you? In Ireland we are approx €40 per square meter.
Great video. Im currently in the process of getting my ICF home plans drafted. Issue im finding is, due to different block thickness (13" for buildblock vs. 13.25" for foxblock) it seems I need to know the exact brand of block I intend to use before the home plans are created - is this the case? If so, this is a issue because I cant get a quote for the ICF block without a plan and I cant get a plan without knowing what block I intend to use, is this right? Also, any advantages/disadvantages in going with foxblock over buildblock or vice versa? Outside of Augusta, Georgia if that makes a difference. Thanks in advance for any guidance you are able to provide...
Build block has a fairly lengthy data sheet with exact drawings on the block structure in PDF form that your architect can use.
Nudura is made in USA and Canada -- if you order these in US market the blocks come their manufacturing plant in Georgia - you're correct about the recent 20% price increase which is bummer news for those of us building with this brand. And Nudura does offer the metal clips and recommends using them on the joints. Great demo on the Fox blocks.
Ya I hear they have one plant in Atlanta, but I saw a quote for a job in Kentucky that’s not terrible far from Atlanta and the freight was higher than fox, which is probably the fault of the freight company and not nudura, I just want nudura to really try every trick in the book to keep costs down as right this minute lumber is so crazy it’s icf’s time to shine as an industry!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 I agree - Nudura is not doing right by their loyal builders or distributors at the moment which is why we’ve decided to look to other ICF brands. Like you, we see Fox as a great alternative. And you’re spot-on, it’s time for ICF technology to out shine flammable carbon cellulose toothpick construction- and not just on quality- on price too!
And those internal clips will act like mini reinforcement bars as well.
Can you do this comparison including Build Blocks? I am about to start an ICF build and am deciding between Nudura, Fox Blocks, and Build Blocks. Great content! 👍
Build is on par with fox in most aspects, comes down to price and availability…. Call Chris rust at rost, they’ve got the best logistics which makes all the difference 417-380-4996
Great video, I have been a Nudura fan for some time but you have some great points about Fox Blocks. They have definitely made it to my list of possibilities. Have you ever thought about using the Perfect Block ICCF? I would love to see a comparison video of ICF vs ICCF.
I like the idea of the iccf... haven’t messed with it as of yet... I’m guessing it’s not as diy-able because you’d have to have more of a masonry skill set and if you have to hire it done masons typically make more than wall guys, at least in my market... that’s just me spit balling though, no actual experience to expound on:)
What's iccf?
Great video, thank you.
Can ICF be used when digging a basement under an existing house? Or is it only for new construction since there would there be a problem trying to add rebar and pour concrete from above due to the existing house foundation being in the way?
PACIFIC ICF just did one like this. Building was existing... level it up and prep the ground, make footing forms and then added AMVIC ICF on top. I planned it so the full height 16" Amvic block fit tightly under the floor joists. So the detail is that the concrete must be poured from a boom pump, so I used an 8" core ICF and placed 50% of the core outside of the building. Half the concrete (8") wide is under the floor joists and 4" is open outside the wall for the pump truck hose. Place vertical rebar after the ICF is installed by dropping them in from the top, thats another reason to have the 4" opening outside of the building. Easy to screed and place bolts if needed, cover with peel and stick and dimple membranes. There may have to be some concern over the bracing or blocking for concrete flow. Another trick is to make the cleats level with the top of footing forms.
For the footings I established the inside plane of the ICF and then installed a cap of wood on top of the cleats of footing so concrete cannot escape the backside where I could not see or work. I did the cap on the exterior of footing too and when stripped, the concrete was square and flat.
email me at bill@pacificicf.com
I have done whole houses floated in by barge and raised 12 ft in the air, and I have done 100 year old homes which had no foundation originally.. ICF is a great choice because there is no stripping required on one side of the wall (usually where you cannot get to)
all really interesting - thx for relaying your experiences.
seems like the added time spent clipping Fox, would be fairly equal to the time spent cutting the metal hinge for windows & using a rubber mallet to click Nudura... equal labor (dependent on number of cuts needed of course)? plus, cutting metal hinges would be added blade costs, no? i hear corners are the #2 spot for blow-outs (spliced joints that aren't braced properly as #1?), so the added length of Fox corner short-sides is appealing. 8ft Nudura length & 3ft window base (2x 18" blocks) seems appealing too.
competition is good!
I no really find fox every bit as fast to build on our jobs, the height of the block for me is a non issue, 16” block make an even 8’ wall 18” block make an even 9’ wall, but neither usually do because if it’s a slab we want icf to footing so the floor isn’t a thermal bridge, so u lose 4-5” and now you have a ripped course anyway, crawls and basements can work with either form if you take time to figure floor height before excavation so footings are at just the right benchmark to end where u want!
Springfield Mo, IL or Ma? Thanks for the video my friend!
MO
Nudura has always recommended using there clips. This allows for mono pours and stops any uplift. I personally like Nudura over Fox Block. But both products are great items.
I like them both too, in my market there’s enough price difference that nudura is just not competitive atm…. Hopefully things stabilize and resin quits pushing prices up!
Great video AWSOME BRO
Thanks!
How does one get ahold of you to connect with someone building with icf?
Integraspec is a great block also. And even tho they are Canadian, there is a place in Alabama that I can get them. Their corners are bought as inside and outside and you can use the inside portion to do T walls. Can pour concrete in 10 ' lifts. How tall can you pour the Fox and Nudura?
They both say 15 and I’ve poured more than that on both... 19’ on nudura was the tallest I’ve done on a single pour, but their corners start to scare me
Informative video, thanks partner
You’re welcome!
You mention that you can get Fox Blocks with the ties unassembled in the foam. You then have someone assemble at the job site. Turns out you can do the same with Nudura. That would give you Nudura blocks that are non-hinged with no metal pin. I live in Canada within 10Km of a Nudura distributer. We use Nudura and have a small number of site-assemble blocks around. We substitute a pinless block anytime we need to cut a pin.
That’s great! And I’m assuming given your location you might not be experiencing the fairly large price increases we are down here? I really hope as things settle down nudura is able to stay(or become again) competitive because I really like the product! I still use a ton of fab form stuff(fast foot and monopour legs) out of Vancouver and they had major supply chain issues this time last year but were able to solve it and are really quick on the draw at this point! Here’s to hoping nudura finds a way to do the same!
Just did a custom home with Fox Block and it was awesome. Bottom line the ICF installer will make all the difference in the world. Make sure and check references.
It’s diy friendly but you need to have a decent understanding of construction for sure!
What is the cost for the block how can I get a real number on cost.
@@brucedecker5398 sorry just saw this. Actually you can call Fix Block and an engineer will take your blue prints and work out a design with wet and costs. I was lucky I found a contractor that all he does is the ICF and he had all the experience and tools you need to do ICF. Trust me an expert installer is worth the money. Hope this helps
Very helpful, thanks
You are welcome!
Are the Fox Block webbing continuous from block to block? It looks like there's a gap vertically.
They are continuous, they don’t snap like nudura but they do effectively touch
What do you do to cover the part of the foundation that’s visible out of the ground?
If you don’t have brick or stone a parge coat of basecrete or something like it
How does one find the solid area for hanging curtain rods or heavy art and mirrors on Fox Blocks?
You have a plastic web every 8” that holds similar weight to studs, if you require serious weight bearing you have a concrete wall you can anchor into pretty easily!
So from footings to the roof, what do you do from ground exposure to siding? Float concrete on the wall?
Love your videos, Brother! Related question: Getting ready to have my ICF plans drawn up but not 100% sure on what block I'll be using. Was initially leaning towards Nudura but based on this video (and other reviews) was going to go with the Foxblocks due to Nudura''s cost. However, the foxblock technical advisor in my region is kind of an ass whe the buildblock guy is SUPER helpful/responsive. Issue is an 8" core foxblock is 13.25" thick whereas the equivalent buildblock is only 13.0" thick. So ultimately I need to determine which block will be used before plans can be drawn up. Do you have any experience/knowledge of Buildblock and if so, which would you prefer between Buildblock and Foxblack? Price comparison? Thank in advance man; fellow Missouri boy here currently living in Georgia haha!
I just met a buildblock guy online and I’m asking about some pricing stuff as they are made in the same plant in Nixa mo as fox…. I don’t think that 1/4 inch is super important, it could theoretically cause a bastard joint that one or the other could have avoided or cause a 1/4” field correction to avoid the bastard of loss of that space on the interior but ultimately that’s so close I don’t think it will end up being too important!
I'm using all brands out there. Im a ICF installer for 27 years. No any block is better.
The only thing that changed is price wise.
@@icfwallsystems what area do you install in?
I am an ICF installer in the SouthEast. I install buildblock, fox block, and nudura.
@@icfwallsystems im located in Augusta, Ga area. Dont know if this is an area you service but if so, would love to chat with you about doing some icf work.
I just spoke with a nudura rep at a home show this weekend and he told me the new dura blocks are pre treated for termite handpest. I don't know if that's a pricing factor , also do you know how costs have leveled out in the past year since your video? I was also told that new dura has a manufacturing facility in Columbus Georgia now
Nudura is manufactured in Columbus, GA
Is the Fab Form Mono Pour system your preference for a foundation? Seems to make a lot of sense to me.
Fab form is awesome, I have an old video on it and I have multiple reasons why I really prefer it, I’ll probably shoot a new video with my mic so I don’t have to listen to people complain about the audio lol, even if you don’t use the monopour for some reason I still like the fast foot forms better than any other! Easier to set on grade, lighter work, you can literally use your wall plates and not have to haul in a bunch of 2x12 or plywood forms, and they give you opportunities to waterproof areas that are typically out of reach after footings are poured!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 is the video called “fab forms”?
Could you educate me on the difference between ICF and UPS concrete construction? I am seeing good things from the UPS forms and they seem stronger and less expensive than ICF but it is also hard to find information on the UPS concrete homes.
I think you mean icf vs iccf…. And iccf are more of a masonry product, not as diy-able, and I have never worked with them to know if there is anything I’d like better, but from the outside looking in I don’t see it
Are the brace and scaffold systems proprietary to eaxh system? To me this is a big deal to get safe access to the top of the wall and to square and straighten walls. Seems to me nudura would give you a straighter wall with the longer block?
No they generally work on all systems, especially fab-forms stuff!
Great review. I was expecting Nudura to come out ahead (not being aware of the prices), so it was nice to get the skinny. Fox Blocks are definitely easier to come by. I also appreciate the information that you can get them cheaper directly than through Menards (although with one of their common 11% rebates, that might not be the case). Great info as we are getting into planning a new home build and strongly considering ICF.
Thanks! Before our local menards stopped carrying them they were 30% more than my local distributor so don’t be wooed by the 11%:)
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 Thanks! I was hoping you would weigh in on that. Subscribing so if we go the ICF route (looking more likely), I'll know where to get information about the best ICF prices.
I really like your channel and I subscribed right away. I'm in Michigan and looking at building a duplex. I had a contractor raving about precast concrete walls. How would you compare precast concrete walls vs ICF in terms of overall build costs, speed, durability of construction etc...I'd love your feedback.
So in my market precast are really high$$... we looked at them for fancy walls featured on my mansion video from 6 weeks ago, I was literally able to buy 15k in forms, rent cam locks, pay my guys and still saved the home owner 15k... that’s probably an extreme example where they were architecturally important but I’ll give you my other cons of precast is you have to be very careful to waterproof the joints... also one of icf’s best qualities is the built-in insulation with precast you are still going to need to spray closed cell or glue on foam board, they don’t really have to when they are building a Costco and speed is all that matters, but I wouldn’t do it in a residential setting, but that’s just my opinion!
Steve, I’ve built duplex and 4-plex with Fox Blocks. The HUGE advantage is the ability to run utilities inside the walls, and obviously penetrate the walls if needed. With precast, you can’t do that with precast! AND, the big advantage that is often overlooked is the reduction of noise between the “common walls.” The neighbor will NEVER hear what’s going on in the neighbors place. Heating & Cooling? No brainer! ICF will give you that. My 4-plex design was 4 single story retirement homes all using a common cross wall in the middle (they looked like a big + sign from above). The realtors sold the entire 24 of them in about 6 weeks. Fox Blocks has very good tech support, and field-wise people. If you run into a problem, just call! Also, I found it extremely helpful to hire (contract) an engineer to help design the structure. This extra cost, on a project by project basis saved $$ when it came to inspections and local building codes. The PE engineer did all the arguing with the inspectors for me. Thus, no hold-up on projects. His seal assures reliability and will standup under any insurance/inspection problems.
@@stephentaylor9366 I really appreciate all the helpful tips! I especially like the idea of enlisting an engineers help because of lack of knowledge from city officials and inspectors. That seems like money well spent!
Steve.
Thanks for the reply and kind words. There are many, many advantages to ICF block construction. I don’t know if you’ve seen the Drury Hotels in your travels, but they are constructed of ICF block. I don’t know which block they use, and am aware they were looking at alternative suppliers for awhile. Personally, my choice is the FOX BLOCK. These guys are some of the oldest in this country, and are into the manufacturing of all kinds of products made from ICF. I found their engineering and support for customers to be superb. As a matter of fact, it was one of their engineers who suggested I find a local engineer (PE) to help me. I was fortunate enough to find one that was licensed in all 50 states, so I could go to neighboring states and build with ICF, or whatever without much of a hassle
Great info
Really excellent video.
Can I ask what's your view on using spray foam between the blocks? I notice a lot of installers in Ireland using cans of this spray foam and Im not a big fan of it. do you think this is necessary?
Also I assume there's no patent issues with icf these days?
Can anyone start making them?
Ya nudura had some design patents on foldability but I believe that’s been copied by strong block(not sure). All the good companies have reversible corners and full height webs so I think the main important stuff is pretty much fair use at this point, the same mousers make multiple companies block, nudura withstanding…
Spray foam on horizontal rows to avoid clipping is fine I suppose, we only use foam under first course and on bastard joints, I can’t see it saving money over clips and clips are hardened steel which has to be more resistant to the vibrations caused by pumping concrete into the wall…
Can these ICF's be used with timber sleepers and instant foundation pile-ons to reduce installation time, so basically a free floating foundation rather than strip concrete standard foundation footings?
Yes!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 Awesome I figured it was possible from an engineering point of view most of our locomotives and railroads use these simple foundation systems transporting 10x more loads than the average house stem wall live loads, thanks 👍
Fox block are really light weight, my wife with arthritis can still help put them tougher. Basement is done. Putting in the floor next week so we can go up the next level to the roofline.
Nice! Hard parts over if your out of the hole!
I love, I love hearing people that actually have a platform. There is no possible way that you can set fox blocks anywhere near as fast as you can see that Nudura you reduce the possibility of a blowout by half and Nudura has no weakness they truly haven’t. I’m a framing carpenter by trade, and they were absolutely simple to work with.
I like Nudura, but their corners are weak sauce compared to fox…. So the no weakness comment is objectively wrong, to make them foldable they are too small, and too easy to damage in a latent way during shipping, fox has the best corners in the game, all the big guys excel at some things and less at others…. That said I’m currently working with and on the Nudura one system to take the icf pools to another level
Budu přece tady!!!! S těma perníkářema :D
Je to osud :D
Nebudu stavět...
Budeme pěkně všichni tady každej den prožívat svoje osobní peklo :D vy to můžete sledovat a bavit se u toho :D
Thanks!
Have you used Build Block? They have a plant 15 miles from where we will be building?
I haven’t, but they are made at the same plant that makes fox and amvic at a lot of the manufacturers... the one in Nixa molds like 10 different types
Are you doing TikTok or any other social media platforms for are a true professional !!!!FYI the Facebook ICF group is very informative as well
I’m a carpenter and knowing the potential of blowout in various places I would strap or sheet my corners as a precaution
I did with nudura because those small folding corners are pretty weak…. But with fox I’ve had 0 issues and we’ve poured a lot!
For flooring would you suggest insuldeck or hollowcore or traditional poured concrete
Slab on grade or elevated?
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 it’s pile footing and 3 floors
In coastal Florida
I would look into lite deck, I’m getting ready to do my master bedroom addition on my personal home with it and it’s impressive, I may be building a friends home in Dauphin island al that way later this year, I built two down there with partners 5 years ago and after seeing that one icf build in Mexico beach standing amongst the rubble I would give anything if I’d thought it through enough to go that route!
Have you compared Fox Blocks to Amvic by chance? Specifically price point wise. So far from what I've seen Amvic might be the most economical solution, but I am awaiting my Fox block quote, so I will keep you posted.
I doubt it will be much different but I’m not familiar with exact pricing of amvic, I have seen some posts about amvic that says they don’t have full height webs, I don’t know if that’s true but I’d stay away from any block without full height webs... amvic is made at the same plant in Nixa that I pick up fox, next time I’m there I’ll snoop around a pallet of amvic and investigate one of their forms so I can give you a more informed opinion! I’d love to know what you find!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 That's a good observation, I've now looked at so many different blocks I will need to go back and check regarding the full height webs. Hoping to have my quote back in the next couple days. Just for a quick reference, Amvic is currently running just over $17 for a straight 4' block in the Midwest.
Please demonstrate how to totally eliminate thermal bridging from door and window bucks when using ICFs while also eliminating the possibility of blow-outs from bucks.
I’ve got a little diy vid I’m working on that will have a doorway using fox bucks, I’ll try to emphasize their purpose in regards to thermal bridging and also show proper bracing!
PreBuck
Has to be expansion vertical joints in long walls. Water will get in this system. The foam hides all the cracked foundations.
Which is why you waterproof the wall like all sub grade walls, nice job trying to fear monger tho;)
I'm assuming you're based in central US? What are your opinions on BuildBlock?
I can get them, they are produced at a factory 15 minutes from me, but at the moment my costs on build block is more than rost charges me for fox so I haven’t done much with them
Over Here in the Western Side of the States it has been very difficult to get Fox Blocks the supply - per the distributers is back logged over 8 months out it was promised 2-4 weeks out back in June!! How can we get this Drop Shipment?
Email me and I’ll get you in touch with the right people! Aaron.cuttingedgehomes@gmail.com
They are running about 8 weeks right now but absolutely available!
what is actually the price for 1 of the Nudura Panel? i didnt found any price in the internet
Email support@icfguru.com I’m out of the country but somebody can check for you
Stronghold ICF's have all the benefits of each with better insulation values. I have used Icf's for 20 years and stronghold is my go to now.
Are there any negatives to using Stronghold?
Nice!
Thank you!
Check out the corners of the Fox Blocks compared to the Nudura. More attachment points for exterior siding. IMHO
Agreed, I didn’t want to bag on nudura too hard because given the right price I’d still use them... but I never trusted their corners... only problems I’ve ever run into on pours is on nudura corners, I know guys who use them up in Canada who strap off every corner to shore up, making them even more expensive to install than I even said in the vid!
How much do you save on shipping and install time with Nudura? Also Nudura makes block in Atlanta..
I don’t think you really save any time all in all... I’ve worked with both significantly, when I started using fox I thought I was settling and I’d find aspects annoying compared to what I perceived to be the Cadillac of icf in nudura, my distributor told me as much... I was pleasantly surprised at how well designed and user friendly the fox blocks are, my and my crew feel comfortable that we can go just as fast with fix blocks and feel way more confident with the corners! I didn’t know nudura was made in Atlanta, but that’s still further away from me than 4 of foxs factories, and I live in the dead center of the country... Can drive to one factory in 20 min and pick up, but when I need more specialty stuff I get full semis delivered from Omaha to Springfield mo for like $900, which is usually a whole house worth, so even if it was a big house that took nudura one truck and fox block 2 trucks, the extra $900 in shipping would pale in comparison to the price difference in the block at the moment... on a pretty normal size house the other day(easily fit into one truck for fox) there was over 3 k price difference between fox and nudura! Like I said, nudura is a good form but I don’t think it’s schtick is worth a nickel more than fox personally!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 The main issue I have with Nudura is how you have to buy it.. I bet if they cut out that middle man and sold directly, it would be significantly cheaper.. As a whole the entire ICF industry is rather shady in pricing and for that reason we suffer...
I am moving to Missouri and have a few projects in mind. What is the finished cost of an ICF wall per square foot of wall? I am comparing it to another system that is priced by square foot of wall.
You can't really do that as the walls vary in thickness and the complexity will change the price..
@@FJB2020 An example can still be given. I was a contractor for decades and would have no problem answering the question.
@@gsmscrazycanuck9814 standard Nudura 6” core form, 13$ a foot of wall finished will get you close, that’s footer all the way to top plate.
Late to the show... But still a question. I've noticed that the manufacturers would prefer to have your screws aligned with the webbing as you'd screw into the harder plastic rather than just the foam.
How well do each work in that respect? How well can you spot the webbing locations from the outside? How well do the screws hold? Any difference in size of the screws (longer, thicker = $$)...
You want them to align for many reasons,
One is that it makes later steps of attaching drywall or exterior products easier, but also there are structural benefits to stacking the full height webs which most brands now have, if you don’t the weight of the wet concrete can compress the forms just a bit and make the top out of level or slightly shorter than intended…. The forms are clearly marked at each web so this is a super easy thing to keep aligned!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 sorry, i mean to align screws at a later point, when finishing the inner and outer walls. How easy to spot where to drill/screw and what screws to use. Especially after some time having finished the wall to screw in something substantive to the wall.
One thing that needs to be talked about is the heignt of the web. I used Amvic on a house and without a full height web just like Fox Block, and for attaching siding it was a pain because you can up to four or five inches of just foam with nothing to screw into.
It is a pain if you don’t have a full height web, but fox block does in fact have full height webs,!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 Amvic web is close to the top of forms, you can cut the foam horizontally for wires in that small gap without dealing with the solid web. True there is no web to screw into at the one small point
Do you use a waterproof membrane on below grade walls? I haven't done home construction for over ten years, but I believe here it's code to waterproof any walls below grade.
You should do something, here we use xypex add mix that waterproofs the actual concrete. There’s a cheap dimpled plastic roll I really like because it aids water in getting down to your French drain I’ll be showing in a video soon!
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 I am familiar with the dimpled product. It's been used here for over 15 years. I have seen many techniques over the years. I have been involved in all aspects of new home construction/renovations since 1983. Found your channel yesterday...good content.
How about a comparison of the Major Blocks for price on an average home? Say FoxBlocks, BuildBlock, Nudura, The Perfect Block, FasWall, and 2 more. Would really like to see the current price differences.
Working on getting a sample of several and comparing multiple categories
I am going to be building a home for myself and my wife as a retirement home. I plan on doing most of the work myself. Can I poor concrete one level at a time. Then add the next level and poor again until I get a full wall?
Yes, that’s the most common method! Look into lite deck floors and hydronic heat, it’s very diy-able and the best practice I can imagine, I’ve got some vids on here, mostly the remod vids with my wife show this method!
I'm also looking at Superform and Buildblocks. How do they compare?
Build blocks specifically just went up over 15%, I think most big brands are going to be competitive from a usability standpoint and as long as price is competitive I think it probably comes down to what’s readily available in your market! In mine fox blocks is one of the easiest to obtain for a great price, but I wouldn’t shy away from them
Superform in my experience is the best
@@tysonprosper9316 in what way are they better?
@@cuttingedgehomes9251 How are the prices now? Have they settled down at all? I designed Nudura into the house but now am having some second thoughts.
What about using hempcrete instead of concrete?
Hempcrete is a non-structural product, it’s effectively insulation, completely inadequate for this or any other structural task….
Have you ever worked with Quad-Lock?
No, but they make it in the same factory as fox blocks locally…. So I’ve looked them over up close, seems like a good block but the quad nubs look tedious to me, when we have to bend icf or when they are less stable on mono legs lining up the nubs is the hardest part, so it seems like that one thing would make them a little harder, but on footers I’m sure they’re great blocks!
I've done about 20 jobs over the years using ICF's starting with the Blue Max blocks in the ate 90's. I have found that the NuDura was my least favorite by far. The 18" height vs the US standard of 16" is not compatible with Plywood nor similar sheathing, and provides waste when one is doing a 4' high or 8' high foundation. I found that attempting to insert 5/8" rebar on the underside of the first course webbing is almost impossible in cold weather (we had to use tie wire). The "T" blocs were not compatible with the top and bottom locks of the longitudinal blocks when installing subsequent courses. And at the time I used them, brick ledge blocks were unattainable. Personally I hope to never see a NuDura block again!
have u ever used quad lock?
Can you, or have you done a video on braces
Use zip lines with nudura bottom rows and corners. Makes life easier.
I am currently building my house with Nudura. I looked at Fox Blocks, but I couldn't find a distributor.
Unfortunately hear that a lot, seems far too regional industry wide…