This NEW Secret Button Could CHANGE Controllers FOREVER
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- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2024
- Controllers are evolving and arcade sticks are being left behind but not anymore! Thanks to this new, secret button the humble arcade stick could possibly return as the best way to play fighting games again! Let's take a look at this controversial mod, The Antagonist.
**THANKS to Bit Bang Gaming for providing this review unit of The Antagonist**
Should this button be allowed or should we ban it? Comment below!
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Tags: Evo, EVO Japan, fighting games, arcade stick, #controller #streetfighter6 #fightinggames
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Predfiction: someone's gonna try making it a discrete mod where it's actually hidden as 1 of the 8 buttons (with a secret switch that swaps between regular and "antagonist" input).
Sneaky!!
@@NihongoGamer Doing this would be extremely simple, what I would do is wire it to 2 buttons that you wouldn't normally press together doing normal play and have it activate when they're pressed together. This wouldn't require any special tricks or extra hardware or anything. that being said I don't think any kind of deception or cheating is appropriate in tournament play or anywhere really. all button controllers are legal I don't see why this shouldn't be, but then again I think all button controllers excluded as well, This isn't exactly a popular opinion but what can I say i'm a grumpy old man who's sitting his ways Haha
That was my first thought. I have a pad hack of a power A enhanced controller which has two programmable buttons. It's only a matter of time.
yes but in a tournament setting people can see what buttons are being pressed and its wouldn't be too hard for someone to figure out that those buttons were doing more than they should.
I hope this stuff gets cracked down on for tournaments etc. But, what about using like a hidden touch sensor that u just move your hand or finger across and it registers? If u could have that in there blended in nicely so u can't even see it, would b kool. But there is no honor in playing like that. If you're just horsing around it's kool, but cheating in high level competition(something I'll never b good enough to have to worry about) is totally bogus and a sign of weak character. Who wants to "win" anything like that?
I think the problem is that it's a single button doing more than one function, without even the need for a shift button. The fact that it can do up, down, left, and right automatically based on context might make it against the rules. If it was strictly an up button, then it would probably be within the rules since that would be a total of two up buttons, which is allowed.
I think configuring a pad to work sorta like a button box is still the best way to go, however, despite being technically tourney legal, you wouldn't actually be able to use it in an offline tourney since it's a PC software only thing. For offline tourneys, especially on console, a button box is probably best.
I mean have you seen the Pizza box? He laid out his combo's in both directions across a XXL pizza box and slides his finger across.
@@rrteppo His combo's what? Do you means combos plural? You don't need the apostrophe after ever S. From my limited understanding of the pizza box, it sounds like it has multiple buttons doing the same function, which is against the rules, outside of allowing two sets of directions.
Thats why Capcom added modern controls (motion or not) into the game.. People dont want to do moves normally anymore. Easier here, shortcuts there, advantage over advantage. Miss the old times.
These controllers should be banned in tournament play. Or, on the other hand, short cuts and lever-less controllers should be banned.
100% cheating for two reasons:
1. The board uses an ESP32 which is extremely easy to program for and flash firmware on, so you can't ever be 100% that it is running the firmware that the developers released. I can make software that does macros which are, indisputably, tournament illegal.
2. The inputs are deterministic, BUT they are not utilizing a reasonable or legal way for generating the output. The single button can generate two different signals depending on the state of the inputs beforehand. That means there is no static remapping available in-game or in-console.
This breaks the EVO rules for controller inputs: "1. The controller may not activate multiple game inputs from a single input mechanism."
EVO uses an analog example: "NOT OK. An analog push-button which sends either game input A or input B depending on how hard it is pressed."
The Antagonist PCB doesn't use an analog signal, just a digital one.
This may be a bit reductive but if we're going to these sorts of lengths to give ourselves input advantages, we might as well just skip to the part where all FGs use simple inputs and get it over with.
This should have been everyone's sentiment when all button controllers showed up. Once you give a green light to hitbox and cross-up type of controllers, it is only FAIR to allow other contraptions to aid the classic arcade stick. Have you seen and counted how many extra buttons those tournament legal ones have like cross-up and smashbox? And they say it's tournament legal. Here, we have 1 extra button - (1 OMG!) - and everyone is crying unfair?
Exactly. Charge characters are specifically balanced with their inputs in mind. If all these other controllers are legal then simplified controls like in DBFZ and SF6 should have no disadvantage like shortened combo potential as anyone with one of these controllers is bypassing the designed limitation.
I hope all Devs just disable SOCD and lololol at anyone who says they need something like a hitbox for medical reasons. Because it doesn't stop them using it, it just takes away some of their advantage. Only some as they still get instantaneous opposing directions.
@@MegamanNova that 1 extra button, is a literal macro... that's the problem
@@ThaMxUp Macro which enables you to press 1 button to simulate more inputs?
Oh yeah, like how the selling point of hitbox and all of it's kind is reducing "work" to effectively input guile type inputs and tricks impossible to execute on traditional controllers in the same time, delay and effort? Both are shortcut enablers.
Videos on RUclips showing how easy it is to use them, you can actually see how it reduces work inputs during hard sequences. Reduction of work required to achieve same output from traditional controllers. Sounds like a macro to me.
I'm not saying ban hitbox and the like. I'm saying, if you allow universally accepted easier and better controllers, just allow the classic arcade stick some upgrade to level the playing field. If you are here to stop necessary work to be able to legitimately "play" a fighting game, you should have done so when hitbox type controllers started appearing. Making things easier compared to traditional controls is its main marketing. We were way past that.
@@MegamanNova you don't understand the difference between a macro and a hitbox clearly, something is a macro when it allows someone to press a single button and get multiple inputs, so for example lets say by pressing forward and square you get a dp motion, because square is clearly doing the inputs of down > down-forward > punch it is a macro because it is only intended for a single action, yet it is doing multiple
hitbnox out of the box doesn't allow that nothing about hitbox is a macro you have to press multiple directions to get the shortcuts and a lot of the shorts aren't so much shortcuts as they are sijmply travel time reductions
honestly the antagonist button wouldn't be so much of a problem if it didn't allow for it to have multiple inputs. If it only could press up if you are holding down or only press forward while holding back it wouldn't be that strong. The reason the hitbox crossup stick is nice is, yes it combines the benefits of having a stick while also giving the benefits of a all button layout, but you still have to press a separate movement button to take full advantage of its potential...its not just a 1 button does everything kind of thing. The same goes for all button layout pads as well. You have to press each individual movement button to take full advantage of it. The antagonist button just does way to much for way too little which is why i don't see it becoming tourney legal anytime soon since it provides tons of potential inputs all on the same button.
I don't believe that tournament legal buttons should be allowed to have "if-then" programming. They should only really do one thing. A button can only be up or only be down. It cannot be up if down is active on the stick.
I wouldn't mind just having it as an extra up input vs hitbox controllers, but if we continue modding controllers in this way, eventually, we might as well not have motions for specials attacks, as we would basically skipping every single one
Seems like a cheat to me. I know fighting games are desperate to be more inaccessible to beginners, but this just makes things way too easy and means the real skill of becoming a fighting game pro is lost.
All shortcuts need to be banned by default for every fighting game UNLESS the developers specifically allow certain things. I have no respect for anyone that uses shortcuts online.
😂
People been using shotcut since sf4 with the three punches and three kicks
😭😭 you’d know? LMAOOO
This will go over super well in the loving caring community of tournament players
Yeah, let's ignore the dumpster fire that's being lit in the FGC Discord Servers
From the sound of it, this can do things that proper SOCD cleaning prevents so I cannot imagine it being legal to use in any tournaments at all. It probably won't change controllers at all, I mean the Pizza Box didn't and that is some true innovation lol.
"proper" SOCD cleaning for most tournaments is literally just not allowing both directions to happen at the same time. Capcom Cup does mandate that L+R = neutral and D+U = Up, but other tournaments typically don't, and you're free to let the pcb resolve the SOCD however it wants, including L+R = last input wins, allowing for instant booms.
Hahaha pizza box 😂 poor Hit box doesn't make much difference than a tradicional stick
How is having an antagonist button that effectively works as a macro that reverses your inputs and trivializes a lot of execution not cheating? SOCD cleaning is preprogrammed on hitboxes precisely to keep most of the usual execution requierements expected of a fighting game (e.g: back + forward = neutral, so you have to release your back input to do a sonic boom), and as you've mentioned, to use pad + joystick on a controller you need to master a very weird grip in order to take advantage of the game not having native SOCD.
Mind you, I don't have a problem in programming an extra button as an additional Up input in games were Down + Up = Up in order to keep it on par with pad/hitbox for certain things, or even to make TK or 360 inputs more consistent, but instantly reversing your current input is pure nonsense and shouldn't be allowed for ranked or tournament play. If you can do Guile's [4]646 super by just holding back and tapping a button twice, at that point why not just program a macro button that does multiple input supers for you?
If you allow this, you may as well allow fully programable macro buttons. Push the rules too much and too often and eventually only be allowed to use certain models of sticks/controllers.
IMO it should be allowed but only for the up command, because hitboxes and the like aren't allowed to have anything but neutral come out if left and right are held, so should be the same for this.
I don't know if you say that deep in the video (gotta go, no time to watch fully), but that's already illegal for every single tournament, for every FG and I don't see that changing.
The smash box has a similar button, but it only flips left and right. It's for a very specific technique that is otherwise easy to do on a regular pad (turning around right before a jump so you can do a Bair while maintaining forward momentum).
This should not be allowed. It's a macro. A context-sensitive macro.
Since almost no fighting game uses more than 6 buttons, why dont you just set two buttons already on the arcade stick to up and back? You get access to the SOCD tricks without having to rely on a macro button. This really doesnt seem to be about "leveling the playing field" and more about wanting a macro to make decisions for you.
Don't touch my arcadestick. It's perfect just how god imagined it. You can pry it off of my dead hands, until then - I'll be using an 8 button stock sf4 TE stick.
Is funny how we all complain about the dev's balance teams but we keep bringing this "innovations" to bypass balance design.
At this point they should just consider SF6 modern controls style as the main type of controls for balance , and ending up being a non-plataform smash bros clone.
And I see the pad tech is coming into the light after 20 YEARS OF BEING A THING
That literally only 2 or 3 people used
Leverless Sticks are 1 thing... But at this point one has to ask themself "Why even both booting up the game at this point" cuz this is LITERALLY just a Macro.
This is not good. one less mental stack you don't have to worry about.
by 2040 fighting will require no skill. Just get an AI to play for you.
Making these shortcuts gives advantage, people who use these will have the advantage over other players....
Fighting games taking the “ronnie2K” route is disgusting. A button that shortcuts inputs defeat the whole purpose. It use to be a treat watching Daigo’s guile, SMUG’s Balrog because of their gifted sticksmanship. Not no more tho.
All of this thing is going to end up with regulation controllers that must be used in tournament without any modifications, since people are abusing the controllers instead of getting better, so it sucks but there is not other way to stop this from becoming a hardware fight instead of a skill one.
I want to see devs implement in game mitigations against shortcuts. Press two opposing cardinal directions? now you're dizzy.
I mean if they're allowing hitbox now at EVO... it's only just a matter of time. Change has always been a constant in this world hasn't it?
At that point, might as well just make the game simple to play. e.g Guile just needs to hold charge direction and you press the P for boom or K flash.
Zangief just needs to press F + 3 P for SPD or F + 3 K for suplex, etc.
I know what you mean. The game is not intended to be like that. The controls are part of the game balance and feel.
SF6 will have simplified alternate controls available. Something like you're talking about
12:09 This point annuls peripherals such as the hitbox-crossup but it is unfair because the ps4 controller has more than 2 times the addresses, one group with the cross and the other with the left analog, we will have to wait for it to be approved
Why don't we just install chatGPT in the stick and let it play by itself?
Devil in Tekken 2 Arcade be like:
I have never see a controller inspection at a tournament
Im very excited to se what changes come to the FGC scene when T8, SF6 and MK12 are all in active play. The FGC is gonna boom and we will see some incredible content!
It's great that you indicate the rules of the official games, it's a question I had and from what I see, my custom hibtox -crossup would be cancelled, but I have a question, if it cancels those keys, would it be allowed?
The current argument online is that it doesn’t cancel inputs really it just “modifies” them. But whether that argument will fly at a tournament…it’s unlikely haha
Looks like EVO will be banning leverless controllers that dont SOCD clean up+down=neutral
Capcom just forced U+D=N & L+R=N in SF6😂 leverless players are in shambles
😭😭😭
What is the point of "fair" if both opponents aren't utilizing the same input device? An arcade stick is supposed to emulate... THE ARCADE. Which is essentially an experience where both players have the exact same input device. I don't understand this infatuation with allowing people to custom things, because it directly creates a desire to find an advantage. Which is exactly what this button is.
Yeah I understand what you're saying since, for example in football both teams use the same ball (regulation size and weight), field and goal sizes, but at the same time on E-sports people don't have arcade machines at their disposition to practice like they might have had in the 90s, not even many TOs have them, plus games need to sell copies to every type of player it's not like just the viewing experience will generate revenue for the game, but if FGs e-sports keep growing I can see some type of harsher regulation for leveling the playing field and only professional players with sanctioned equipment can participate on tournaments.
Because it’s the 21sr century and most people play at home now. Nobody with a brain would use a controller that they don’t want to purely because tournaments only allowed that type.
Sweet this is what I needed. I can combine it with the Magenta fightstick!
Now that’s a combo!
By the current standard there is no way it's legal. It adds functionality beyond the ps pad, ie on the pad if you want to take advantage of the synergy between analog and dpad inputs you still have to choose between pressing left or right, this is one button that does both, and always chooses the correct direction to boot. I don't think there is any gray area here, this thing is absolutely in violation on current tournament standards.
Yeah, not tourney legal now, but the question, should it be in the future? With some changes I think at least the short hop benefits should be allowed
@@NihongoGamer No, Nihongo, it should not be. Why would anyone with a standard stick (OGs) or pad (many new school champs) even bother competing unless they can afford for the upgrade.
Bro,I think Capcom saw your video...
Beat me to it lol
Ah, yes! *TECHNOLOGY* or as some say *TECH*
I think tournaments should issue you a joy stick or game pad and play. No mods no leverless not antagonist mod. Skipping steps or actions is an advantage.
This is interesting since SF6 has the modern control scheme. The scheme is good for new players to dip their toes into the game, or just have friends play the game and not feel scared.
It's a downside ultimately to the overall health of the community in my opinion since Fighting Games have always been about skill. Start removing those aspects and might as well start making games like Darksouls not allow you to die so it's more friendly to new players.
Remember in SF4 where people had extra buttons for Plinking and even extra button re-wired for Slinking? xD funny to think were now at the point where extra buttons for movement/directional inputs for advantages.
Look at you, having so many fightsticks, your house must be cluttered, I can help you get rid of the ones you don't need... hehe
Clever lol
Accessibility is always a good thing, but I don't agree with *this*.
When did fighting games become about making inputs laughably easy, instead of mastering them the regular way?
Putting the functions of buttons together I would get, but also make them do motion inputs?
That would end the need for themainmanswe's guide to electrics, and that is kinda sad.
imagine an entire arms race between hitbox and crossup just to make Guile even more busted XD
This can't be legal anywhere. This is the "deliver my food & feed it to me" of sticks. 1-button SNK pretzel-motion super.
I use a mixbox cause I like wasd, and I need 2 for space and shift, can I set them to R3 and R3 just to have extra inputs for something like tekken, and so I can use my mixbox comfortably for platform fighters instead of a keyboard ( I use space for jump without tap jump and I use shift for sprint or dodge depending on the game)
They called it the Antagnoist. They knew this button would be controversial when they were creating it 😂
I'll let the zoomers use these extra buttons and keys. I like my good old stick and sanwa buttons. Nothing else
Same. The tool is only as good as the person using it.
@@ducksoop.xI agree. Up until you reach a certain level which us online warriors aren't reaching
It's a macro. The button has logic that decides how it functions. Completely illegal.
at @2:10 where is the "down" input for the shoryuken? I only see back, forward, up... I didnt see down anywhere.
Capcom incorporates easy mode and shortcuts for inputs:
Players: oh no we don't need easier ways to play, we mod our controllers instead 😂.
We need a new league for this players like the special Olympics.
If understanding the game or practice to have good execution is to hard for you, your playing the wrong game.
Yes. We could have a skill league, and an arms race league, where anything goes mod-wise
Easy mode limits your move set. These type of controllers still give you access to all.
If the goal of the tournament is to find the best player, everyone should use the exact same input device...
4:44 it means you’ll know who really came from the arcade era.
I don't think anyone should have the major advantages of SOCD inputs whether that means stricter controller checks, hand cameras during matches, and/or games designed to handle/lock out those types of inputs, e.g. mutually exclusive d-pad and analog activation via settings, and tighter limitations on how it processes "impossible" inputs. Something like that would require a regulating tournament standards committee or commission which would probably only further separate the FGC from its grass-roots origins.
Just be on the look out for some scandals in the future involving actual cheat boxes, designed to discretely circumvent the rules, being used to win tournaments, especially now that Capcom, and possibly others, are jacking up the prize pools to some e-sports levels. Just because people are talented and skilled doesn't mean they won't cheat; just look at speedrunning or any sport. It is going to happen if it isn't already.
This is basically the same thing as the "Cronus zen" device that people use to cheat on first person shooters, they plug it on the console and make their aim flawless, how is that not cheating?
...am I missing something? It's just a macro button outside the arcade stick, right?
I mean... I guess 3rd party controllers have macro functions, so bringing it to the arcade stick is "fair", if we are talking about availability of function...
but...wow...really?
I will defend all button controllers, but I don't know if I would defend this w
This is the kind of advantage that new players an even pro players. Will start using an basically become undefeated goodbye controller players an skill.
What is the next step? Now people are allowed to program inputs based on another input. What is the next one? Creating a hot which fights for you?
The thing that makes this illegal ATM is that down+up must= neutral same with f+b
I love you NihonGOD gamer. Just a quick question. What is displaying the inputs on your stick at 5:24 I really want an app that could do that and it looks great!
Wow, this poor mod is already obsolete. Thanks Capcom.
How so?
might as well get rid of motion inputs cuz it seems that what some people want
Capcom: hold my dynamic controls.
The end of FGC is near
Competition is one thing, you gotta do what you gotta do to win.
BUT, people tend to forget that the fighting game controls like Street Fighter's have been designed to give the player a 'kinetic' feel of being in the action by doing the motions and timings with the lever. By changing the controls and the controller you're essentially ruining your game experience. Unless you can't handle a lever or teally prefer something else.
I am into fighting games largely because my ❤ love for the arcades, so the lever is essential for me.
Well, in my opinion this anything that allows you to bypass the physical travel time of an arcade stick is illegal, why? because the developers could add a jump button or defense button by design, they could even add a customisable button layout that allows the player to put de defense and jump movements directly into any button, like MK, but they don't, because it is intended to have the stick and dpad physics as a game mechanic that makes some powerful moves more time consuming and harder to perform, they use this as a balance mechanic.
Was that a Weird Al reference?
the dragon punch shortcut with the UP button doesn't work anymore on SF6, but it's true that Half circle or circle motions are just easier and more intuitive on stick.
It does work now following the mandatory CPT SOCD changes
@@manleyfgc7981 true I saw it.
There’s no stoping it allow anything except strait up Macro, that is two or more commands by one button push.
I‘m a simple guy… if a move takes D,DF,F+P to pull off then I‘m gonna press D,DF,F+P to do it… I don’t know maybe I‘m getting old
TBH they should ban all these gadgets and stick to how it is supposed to be played, with a joystick and six buttons. Then it is actually a battle with the most skilled players, not a bunch of cheaters.
I hate regular consoles pads, and i really don't like the feel of playing on a hitbox. Even if they're not mainstream, i hope arcade stick are not going anywhere.
ordered some of these for some builds that i am doing, cant wait to try out ❤
This button should be allowed as long as gamepads are allowed because a gamepad lets you input two directions at once.
Ideally, only levers should be allowed. If you use a pad or a hitbox you're a weasel.
Capcom can solve the whole opposing cardinal direction by mandating neutral direction between up-down inputs (like they do for forward-back). This levels the playing field more between leverless and levered controllers but still keeps some of the leverless specialities like instant blocking. I don't know why more people aren't talking about it this way.
I'd like to see rules that are like "you can only use these types of controller design"
Would avoid so many arguments
What's stopping someone from rewiring one of the pinky buttons to jump? As a KB/Hitbox player I'm all for the Antag Button, ALL of the controllers are evolving it's time for sticks to level up too
Everyone holding the dualshock wrong to get that input. In you claw grip the dpad with your left ring finger and thumb on joystick you can have more control of the attack buttons and prob feel more confortable the claw gripping with the attck and joystick
I think you have just convinced a ton of people to pick up a Crossup!
Hehe crossup army about to get bigger!
Fighting game nerds will scream and cry about modern controls being too easy and then build a whole ass circuit board to get the same thing.
Shortcut buttons like this, and like the lever less controllers might as well just use special style 😂
I'm glad im only a spectator of fighting games, cause i can see this making some drama later down the line somewhere, if not soon.
I hate how the state of control innovations of fighting games is just finding new ways to cheat
just drill a 30mm button
and bypass (jumper) to a designated button like mine
its back or up so i can dash cancel.or side step cancel
God I hate 2023.
After this video break down am super excited for this to become a norm
I'm gonna be real, unless the games are designed around these controllers... Outside of accessibility and physical handicaps, these controller mods are straight up cheating, lol. You can't beat bat corking with more bat corking; eventually TO's and game designers will have to neutralize these modifications for the integrity of the game.
Paraphrasing but “This button is a macro and lets you do a fireball with a single button and hitbox controllers have been doing this for years” doesn’t make any sense
what get's me is, they have come up a revolutionary product for gaming and decided to send out the ugliest button ever. It's not like they had to go to another industry to find a button that would work. they could of just sent it out with a sanwa button. christ what where they thinking
Adding additional buttons and removing the analog stick takes away the purity of the original idea of what a fighting game is all about. We should be working of ways to input commands at a faster rate, using the original analog stick and the LP, MP, HP, LK, MK, HK buttons.
This would be good if you could not reprogram the antagonist. (I'm going to be speaking in general, not directly at you) If you need a shortcut button, then you should probably focus on using a leverless stick. The rules obviously won't allow for the antagonist to be used & neither will the crossup. No disrespect to you or anyone, but I personally found it easier to use a leverless stick. Especially when it comes to more difficult inputs. And regardless of how you feel about it, there will be people who are going to use these leverless sticks. I feel like devices like the antagonist & crossup should be allowed, but with limitations. Otherwise people who enjoy using sticks are going to fall behind. Yes. I am aware that you aren't going to magically win or be better than your opponent if you use a leverless stick, but it definitely helps in the cases that Ninhongo showed off.
Thats great news , all fighting games should be played on pad from console , original, or a standard fightstick. No hitboxes no nothing. An arcade cabinet came in fightstick layout peroid(obviously). I dont even know why anything further than a console controller pad is even necessary. You learn to use either or, n thats it .. if not then play some other game... trust me ... people who use it now either werenllaying on pad or fightstick anyways , ... theh can go back to what they were using before or not play the game. Or competitively in this case. Haha
Great for beginners to learn fundamentals and situational awareness but I don't ever see it being tournament legal.
Yeah it’s important to facilitate learning since everyone has different things they need focus on at different times
It should be allowed since DS3 is allowed
If they ban DS3 they can ban those controllers.
Honestly the way it's installed feels more like a macro than a button input but I will say the space-bar like form-factor is a great idea. Thou at what point is it just a keyboard with a stick?
This will be banned for sure.
Why do fighting games need complex move inputs? - is a questions I rarely see come up when talking about the advantages of all-button-controllers, and mods like this one.
I can understand a fondness for the 'days of the arcade' and for the feeling of mastering those inputs. But when new styles of controllers simply the game play, that suggests that some players would like simpler game play. That's something the games could do themselves. I know many games have modes that allow for this now. I just wondering about the whole scene.
Why does Street Fighter Six still play so much like 2?