I often think of the question _"Are trans-women women?"_ as being somewhat equivalent to the question _"Are adoptive mothers mothers?"_ in the latter case, it is universally accepted that the answer can be _"Biologically no, but socially yes."_ because language is fuzzy, and words can have different meanings in different contexts.
I appreciated this conversation between friends so much. So much that I forgot (almost) about the need to label and categorize. You’re all clearly doing such a good job at life - on and off line - while also navigating additional challenges like vitriol where it makes little sense. Don’t forget that the obscene hateful online commentators are a fraction of the “real” world. I hate that it’s like that and is the reason I hardly go online. But I am glad I did today, y’all have taught me a lot.
I'm 10 minutes into this conversation and I absolutely love it!! So far speaking about things that are so axiomatic that they're taken for granted. I'm liking the elucidation ❤
I think the issue is JK Rowling is blinded by the fringe left. (And what Taf said at around 9:45 )I hope she comes on the show and you all challenge her beliefs. There is certainly something feminine about talking about doing your hair for that long IMHO (as a cis man, I do my hair and such but it’s never really a conversation) I think some amount of inclusive sexism is important for your movement, similar to how there was a study showing women are attracted to positive sexism (eg. the man should be a protector, like chivalrous things) I hope I don’t come off as some sexist pest. I just think there is a negative-affecting deletion of positive sex roles by those who insist on gender ideology. Anyways, as a nurse I really like your evidence based approach for gender care, and I hope there comes studies that aren’t operated by either political fringe. Many of the studies for puberty blockers and hormone therapy for minors score low on the Newcastle-Ottawa Scale (according to Cass Review)
@peace4policy There is something feminine or womanly, if I may say, about talking regarding hair care. I'm a female, mascline presenting, and I do not give much time to my hair care.
Baiting Rowling to go mask-off was probably a good strategic move. This is a good and worthwhile discussion - I'd say Dollcast is growing into its raison d'etre here
Isn’t it possible that Rowling has become so hateful because of all the abuse she has suffered over these last years? I have thought of myself as a TERF but listening to trans women like you has allowed me to have a more nuanced view.
@@racer5-d4e very much agree. It started out somewhat reasonable but she's gone off the rails. And unforch, maybe it is because she's gotten so much hate from the trans community
What abuse? Both sides are namecalling for sure. (Lets just ignore the impact in JKs massive favour...) What does the science say? Is there an empirical consensus on reality? If so,what does it say? Are trans people as a whole argue against her human rights? And what does she do? Who has an ear at the government level? Trans people and science or "TERFs" like JKR? She is not even a feminist, LOL. I know tons of women (especially lesbians) that are so far beyond this bigotted propaganda... TERFs just propagate the patriarchy, inherently...
She’s not hateful. If you continue to desensitize the world to the use of the word “hateful” and over use it, and use it wrongly it will have zero impact when a trans identified person experiences real life hurtful hate.
"The Gamergate Chick" Brianna, not only is that not a title you should be wanting to indentify with, its not even true. Most people don't even know you were involved and those that do half the time only because you brought it up.
@@Aravanus I mean, a fair few people do think of her that way. Including myself somewhat. It’d be quite interesting to see conversations with people from the Right of GamerGate who have also since matured and chilled out. A kind-of GamerGate truth and reconciliation commission. I picture it a bit like the _“That really got out-of-hand.”_ conversation from Anchorman.
@@Dollcast-r8n Ahh! I look forward to that. I remember at the time thinking. _“Well this is an absolute shit-show. I’ll be glad when it’s over.”_ But then instead, that culture-war dynamic just grew to envelop most of global politics!
Replace "you folks" with "human rights" and look at who shares your beliefs... Science doesnt share your "beliefs" [to keep the wording YT friendly...]
@@sodaaccount Cultural & political values are not questions of science. So I assume you're implying that science is on your side in some tangential way. You seem to be losing that battle too. (I also have to keep my wording YT friendly.)
trans people are winning in the long run because they are the more desperate ones. cuIture warriors will eventually get tired and find another hot topic. because they don't really care
I often think of the question _"Are trans-women women?"_ as being somewhat equivalent to the question _"Are adoptive mothers mothers?"_ in the latter case, it is universally accepted that the answer can be _"Biologically no, but socially yes."_ because language is fuzzy, and words can have different meanings in different contexts.
@@andybrice2711 Well said!
I appreciated this conversation between friends so much. So much that I forgot (almost) about the need to label and categorize. You’re all clearly doing such a good job at life - on and off line - while also navigating additional challenges like vitriol where it makes little sense. Don’t forget that the obscene hateful online commentators are a fraction of the “real” world. I hate that it’s like that and is the reason I hardly go online. But I am glad I did today, y’all have taught me a lot.
9:45 Taf's point here is sooooo based omg
Yes!! ❤❤
I'm 10 minutes into this conversation and I absolutely love it!! So far speaking about things that are so axiomatic that they're taken for granted. I'm liking the elucidation ❤
I think the issue is JK Rowling is blinded by the fringe left. (And what Taf said at around 9:45 )I hope she comes on the show and you all challenge her beliefs.
There is certainly something feminine about talking about doing your hair for that long IMHO (as a cis man, I do my hair and such but it’s never really a conversation)
I think some amount of inclusive sexism is important for your movement, similar to how there was a study showing women are attracted to positive sexism (eg. the man should be a protector, like chivalrous things)
I hope I don’t come off as some sexist pest. I just think there is a negative-affecting deletion of positive sex roles by those who insist on gender ideology.
Anyways, as a nurse I really like your evidence based approach for gender care, and I hope there comes studies that aren’t operated by either political fringe. Many of the studies for puberty blockers and hormone therapy for minors score low on the Newcastle-Ottawa Scale (according to Cass Review)
@peace4policy There is something feminine or womanly, if I may say, about talking regarding hair care. I'm a female, mascline presenting, and I do not give much time to my hair care.
"Transition, go stealth, don't talk about it." Yep. That's how I feel .
Stealth? Everyone can spot a man
26:06 YES!! Kelly and Schy nailed it here. People are loathed to give up any little bit of ground. It's so fucking childish!
17:14 I FUCKING LOVE Taf! Pushing back on Brianna in a kind yet intellectually stern way.
@@lizicadumitru9683 haha. We like her too. Most of our episodes are about respectful disagreement!
This was a very nuanced episode.
@@non_ideological_transexual7414 We’re a very nuanced show!
@Dollcast-r8n "Mostly" yes
This has to be my new fav pod
Baiting Rowling to go mask-off was probably a good strategic move. This is a good and worthwhile discussion - I'd say Dollcast is growing into its raison d'etre here
Dalinar Kohlin mentioned!
Isn’t it possible that Rowling has become so hateful because of all the abuse she has suffered over these last years? I have thought of myself as a TERF but listening to trans women like you has allowed me to have a more nuanced view.
JK had some reasonable stances that have since gone off the rails
@@racer5-d4e very much agree. It started out somewhat reasonable but she's gone off the rails. And unforch, maybe it is because she's gotten so much hate from the trans community
It's definitely true. We denounce that in this episode!
What abuse?
Both sides are namecalling for sure. (Lets just ignore the impact in JKs massive favour...)
What does the science say? Is there an empirical consensus on reality? If so,what does it say? Are trans people as a whole argue against her human rights? And what does she do?
Who has an ear at the government level? Trans people and science or "TERFs" like JKR? She is not even a feminist, LOL. I know tons of women (especially lesbians) that are so far beyond this bigotted propaganda... TERFs just propagate the patriarchy, inherently...
She’s not hateful. If you continue to desensitize the world to the use of the word “hateful” and over use it, and use it wrongly it will have zero impact when a trans identified person experiences real life hurtful hate.
"The Gamergate Chick"
Brianna, not only is that not a title you should be wanting to indentify with, its not even true. Most people don't even know you were involved and those that do half the time only because you brought it up.
@@Aravanus I mean, a fair few people do think of her that way. Including myself somewhat.
It’d be quite interesting to see conversations with people from the Right of GamerGate who have also since matured and chilled out.
A kind-of GamerGate truth and reconciliation commission.
I picture it a bit like the _“That really got out-of-hand.”_ conversation from Anchorman.
@@andybrice2711 Short fat otaku episode drops soon
@@Dollcast-r8n Ahh! I look forward to that.
I remember at the time thinking. _“Well this is an absolute shit-show. I’ll be glad when it’s over.”_ But then instead, that culture-war dynamic just grew to envelop most of global politics!
You folks are losing the cultural debate, in case you haven't noticed.
@@donjindra why do you think we started the show?
Replace "you folks" with "human rights" and look at who shares your beliefs...
Science doesnt share your "beliefs" [to keep the wording YT friendly...]
@@sodaaccount Cultural & political values are not questions of science. So I assume you're implying that science is on your side in some tangential way. You seem to be losing that battle too. (I also have to keep my wording YT friendly.)
@@Dollcast-r8n I wouldn't presume to know why you started the show.
trans people are winning in the long run because they are the more desperate ones. cuIture warriors will eventually get tired and find another hot topic. because they don't really care