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- Опубликовано: 16 апр 2024
- Core drilling with KM Glass thin walled glass core drill bits is the newest and latest trick developed by Greg German - the Q of bolt removal.
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This doesn't affect me, but I'll watch it regardless
Woo I'm famous! FYI it is possible to cut metal with these bits but it's about 10x slower than cutting rock. So if somebody wants to use a 13mm core bit to remove a 3/8" wedge bolt, its possible. I'd just plan to use a lot of water and have the clutch really soft.
Thanks for everything you do!
Perfect- One stop shopping is a better scenario than I imagined possible. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
You deserve all the thanks as well. I learned much from your knowledge generosity.
Morse tapers are used on all large drill bits. Take great care of them as it's totally a friction drive. A particle of grit or a bruise on the side of the bit will damage the socket and lead to spinning and further damage. I'd be using a block of wood or soft hammer to securely tap the bit into the driver. Large drill bits have a tang to help with removal, along with a "drift". I don't like the vicegrips to separate the two but tapping on the side with a soft hammer would probably work. Pity there isn't a hole through the 12mm shank to get a pin punch down to eject but I suppose water would go the wrong way!
Thank you Ryan for this comprehensive summary, and for helping make these tools conveniently available! And for referencing my videos. I've learned a ton from your channel and the bolting bible, thanks for your contributions to the climbing and bolting community
Good stuff mate. This PITA solution illustrates some important sustainability points
Developers: use the best gear you can, given how mature your local climbing scene is, but don't assume someone will magically fix your laziness later
Rebolters: use the best gear there is available. If it needs rebolting now, don't make it so it'll need rebolting in another 10 years. Core drills don't work very well and will widen the hole. Just do it right now and avoid 3 more decades of crap replacing crap.
Everyone: never glue in wear components, ever. Don't lower off glue in bolts unless you really have to. If you find a glue in with rope wear, add a replaceable component
This rebolting part is so important. There's loads of routes here that were rebolted with plated steel on new holes. Now I have to rebolt it again and have even less places I could place the new bolts if I can't extract the original one.
"Just be rich" Why didn't I think of that? I doubt many people are choosing not-the-best gear because they think it's cool or hip. it's because it's what they can manage. But yes, a few mistakes are ignorance, not poverty, and those can be fixed more easily.
@@gavinjenkins899 it's not that simple. Proper stainless gear used to be prohibitely expensive but is not anymore (it's actually cheaper in the long run). Lots of older bolters are still using outdated equipment because that what was available when they started. But times changed and there's better stuff to use now, and not everyone knows about it.
@@gavinjenkins899 "use the best gear you can, given how mature your local climbing scene is" That means, if you're just staring out in a region, do what you can & use what you can afford. But if you have a mature scene, that means you have many people & resources available and so can pool them to make sure the bolts don't need replacing many times.
But yes, route development IS expensive. I know, I've done lots.
But Ryan, @climbingtaiwan , Myself @mountainmullet and others out there are trying to make it so it's not so expensive or sketchy to develop routes, no matter where in the world you are. What can you do? Join or start a rebolting fund, access fund, or other climbing coalition.
Shoutout to boltadownunder! His channel has some amazing drill comparisons. He probably owns more sds drills than everyone on this reply chain combined.
I worked in a glass cold working shop for a few years. The best way to make holes in glass, you want to peck drill. Giving enough time for the water to purge the hole and clear the material you have just ground.
Yes this takes time but you ensure there is no heat build up. This technique could be modified for rock (e.g. occasional peck drilling rather than frequent peck drilling).
using core drills similar to this at work, we usually have the water contakner about 2-3m above the hole with opening facing up, then hose is attached to a J of aluminium going down to the bottom, this will flow on its own when primed with few squeeze on the priming like shown, then after the priming bulb we have a ball valve to adjust the flow, this frees up one hand.
true, we are on scaffolding and working on concrete but in other hand we have added nuisance of having to use antifreeze (live 65 degrees norh latitude and -20 is a nice day out several months of the year)
@howNOT2 you can buy slide hammers that can attach directly to a set of lockjaw pliers that can ve used to essentially hammer out a stuck bolt. Would be pretty ideal for any sort of bolt removal project.
Something like a Tubing Clamp Valve, common from home brewing supply stores, might be helpful in controlling your water flow. You could also install an inline ball valve. Then anchor a water bladder above your work area and you should be set.
I love the passion and effort you guys put in to exploring the safety of all the equipment… It is appreciated! And in this case… And for this purpose… Clickbait is just fine!
Thank you for the beta. New to sustainable rebolting. At the moment doing button heads and 1/4 inch. This should work well for 1/4in, because only option ATM is to chop and drill a new hole
Fun fact: 20% off an item with a 20% markup is not actually the base cost, it is less, 96% to be precise.
He knew what he meant to say, but he's not a math guy. No biggie.
Y’all be heroes to the core❤
Thank you! This is very helpful
Really appreciate the knowledge work, and the focus on enabling and empowering others. Super stand-up work. Thanks!
SUPER INTERESTING!
wow, this is incredibly informative. i don't have the money or resources to bolt/fix bolts yet, but this is a great resource. thank you for putting all of this information together.
Hey recently there was a fire at my local crag and there have been concerns about bolts being heated up in the fire, wondering if you could somehow test that? The crag is lakeside pinacle in cape town.
If you can access any, you should be able to tell if they heated up enough to lose any galvanized coatings as they would rust really fast, and if you can put a file on any and compare to how a new one feels, that will tell you if they got hot enough to change the heat treatment. A stroke or two will tell you a lot. If anything they would have likely just gotten a bit softer (so will bend easier) but unless you see spalling of the rock near the hole, they likely are not very affected. That said, the normal rules of making sure they are still well embedded would stand. Unless the fire was incredibly hot and fast (and in which case you would see rock spall no matter what) the thermal mass of the rock would protect the bolts to a large degree. The risk is from rapid temp change which is not likely in that situation. If it is a concern, get one of the hangers, and a new one and find an experienced welder or fabricator (if you happen to know an experienced knife/sword maker, even better), someone who does steel heat treating to help you see if there is a major change. My main thought would be the coatings though, so that might start showing up in the next year-ish if not already, and people can evaluate then.
try using a small hand pressured atomiser bottle with an inline tap/valve then you can keep two hands on the drill and regulate the flow easily.
I've only ever made cabinets so the closest thing I've experienced to this are *really* cheap Forstner bits, but, all bits will basically stop cutting when the gunk can't get out of the way. How is all the gunk getting out of the hole...?
It looks like your setup has water flowing through the middle of the core drill so all the gunk isn't getting out there, but I don't see anywhere else it can go.
Breakages also happen when the gunk jams up and stops the bit from rotating. I think most of the broken drills are just clogging problems. If there was a way to add an exit path I think it'd be fine
Thanks man, super appreciate this. If the hole is too smooth after core drilling, perhaps a Titen concrete screw threaded in and then removed would help add some extra threads in the rock for the glue to grip to.
Instead of using a water bottle to cool the drill bit, could you attach something like an IV bag with a prusik on the rope and set the flow rate from the bag? There is also a pressure cup that you can fit around the IV bag that would give the water a little more force instead of a gravity feed. That would free up a hand.
Geiger rig I believe is a water bladder solution that will do it
Nice 😎 would it be best to hammer in soft lead from the back of drywall boards instead of glue or just hammer in the self anchoring ones
The factor, "polishing the hole" is c-wrap. Every drill does that. From step one, new hole. So ignore it. But butt Bart, if you are worried, gouge a channel into the hole with a chisel, to give you extra dimensional fixature opportunity. 😊
I'm no climber and my knowledge is in metalworking. Still I'll add idea to the crazy idea bucket.
When are you going to experiment tapping the rock directly ?
Split head coring bit with added bonded diamonds on the shaft and a wedge at the tip held in place with a threaded rod coming up to the end of the coring drill bit so you can tighten it up, make the bit splay and start to enlarge the end of the hole.
I think I would even try to be a smartass and use the rod of the wedge as the axis of rotation, so when drilling as the hole gets bigger the fingers of the drill slip more easily on the wedge and the wedge tighten itself more splaying the fingers etc.
To remove the bit run in reverse releasing the wedge if need be tap the wedge in then pull the coring part.
If you add 20% margin and then discount by 20% for supporters, aren't you selling below cost instead of at cost? Take 100*1.2 = 120. 120*0.8 = 96, so 4 less than the 100 you started from.
Margin and markup are diffrent things
i dont know how theseable this is but would it be possible to use a plastic sheath around a bolt that could be melted away to pull out the bolt at a later date as long as the bolt causes the plastic to expand it should retain normal grip strength
Morse tapers are wonderful things, but yeah they definitely can hold more than is expected. Letting the metal cool a bit can help get it loose as even a bit of expansion will significantly increase the holding force. There may also be a way to push the bit out from the rear of the socket, but I don't know for sure given the need for the through cooling.
Also, to reduce the amount you need to wallow (angle the bit back and forth to keep it from binding), make sure to do more pecking and pulling out to allow what you're drilling to come out of the anulus that it's cutting.
do you guys have a video on U-bolts? theyre the most common in my area in tasmania
Hey dude
I just got an ad for Temu for some auto locking carabiners for $8. Feels like a scam.
Would love it if you did a break test with some carabiners from those super cheap sand scammy online stores.
I love your content bro 😎
Nice!
Can't you use constant pressure super soaker technology here?
wouldn’t never thought of using a morse taper
Can someone explain the difference between a static arborist rope and a static sailing rope?
I climb trees but still watch stuff like this just so maybe I’ll learn something.
All SDS drills have a clutch, they didn't use and it really hurt when they got stuck. They are not variable but just the maximum the drill can do without hurting you.
The clutch on your combi drill is only engaged in screw mode unlike the SDS that is already engaged.
I would expect you do do less damage to the core drill with the lower speed lower torque SDS with a permanently engaged clutch.
That said more SDS drills now do have electronics that can let you adjust the speed and torque though usually just high and low thought rarther than a full range.
This doesn't addect me at all but I watched it because I like seeing how people try to solve problems that you wouldn't think exist.
Any way you could use a carbide-tipped bit to drill through the bolt? I've drilled out taps with a solid carbide drill, but that was with a mill, not a hand drill dangling on the end of a rope.
The other option would be an alum solution, but i don't know if that affects stainless the way it does tool steel.
It is possible but super battery and time intensive. And you would still need some form of coolant. There might be a perfect bit out there sharp enough to cut the metal efficiently but not become blunted immediately when it inevitably hits the rock but I am not aware of it.
@@bobbyhutton1989A material I've read about but isn't commercialized has dendritic carbides or in a mostly interlocking structure in a matrix of softer material. The carbides do the cutting and the softer material wears away, exposing fresh carbide. It's not unlike a diamond coated tool; it's definitely consumed in cutting. The big advantage is that it's not a surface treatment or anything but carbide the whole way through. The disadvantage is that the bulk strength isn't very good due to the soft material. Really only good where cutting geometry isn't a concern, like masonry or die grinders...
Would it be possible to induction heat glue in bolts to melt the epoxy and reuse the hole? Never placed or removed a bolt in my life but have melted a few things 🤔.
Epoxy is "thermoset" not "thermoplastic"… You can't reverse that process with heat.
8:33 talking about the “clutch” not “chuck”. I think… 9:35 was correct though 🤷
i installed a plywood wall on some 2x4 with tap-cons. i was stapling wire to it and the entire thing fell. i thought of yall
Question?
I know it’s a pain… but I’ve drilled out bolts from my car with a metal drill bit.
You’d probably want to use 3-4 bits starting with a centre drill and moving up in sizes until the bolt comes up.
As I said it’s a pain… but it’s possible… well at least with anything other than titanium. And you’d want really good quality drill bits…
In this context it is quite difficult to just drill the bolt and not the rock. Drill bits for metal get super dull quickly in my experience when they hit rock. You would also need a way to deal with all the metal shaving. It is possible to use rebar cutter sds bits but it is very slow and uses tons of battery. Gets real hot too. The thin wall core drill bit method is 1000% better.
Stupid question: can you soften/burn/melt the epoxy with a Propane torch to get it to release?
Depends on the formulation of the adhesive. Some are designed to be fire resistant. It is super difficult to transfer the heat into the back of the hole as the rock is a big heat absorber. You start to damage the rock before the adhesive softens. We did a video a few years ago about it.
Do these bits work without a bolt inside? Like could I just use one of these to drill a new hole if the extraction goes sideways?
Kinda, not really. They work better with a bolt inside because you're just chipping away and flushing out the layer of rock around the bolt. If you try just drilling a hole with this bit, the rock jams up the inner diameter of the bit, and chunks tend to break off on the inside of the bit after about an inch, so the flushing flow path gets clogged. If you pull the bit off and unclog it and continue, eventually you'll get there, but all in all it takes way more time and effort than a masonry drill
You'd be better off with a standard core bit on an angle grinder.
Do you think it might be necessary to drill all the way with wedge bolts? It might be possible to drill just until the core drill hits the metal part of the clip at the end of the bolt and then extract with a tool like the YABR. WDYT?
You could do that, if it is really important to have the smallest hole possible, but practically I will be leaving the doodad or Yabr at home most of the time. I think it is more efficient to core drill deeper than bring another tool. -Bobby
Yep, we have done this a lot, works pretty well.
We usually do this as We have had issues with the sharp deepest end of the clip (after drilling past it) grabbing the diamond cutter and causing the bit to be stuck. I think on most rocks the bolt would just fall out but we are working in limestone and the very end of the cone/bolt is often rusted/fused to the rock
What you're describing works fine for wedge bolts, if you just drill untill you feel the increased resistance from the expansion portion. you don't need a YABR, but some vice grips help so you can wiggle/ funk out the bolt. For sleeve bolts, it's less effective but I did it with 16mm core bit for 1/2" lok bolts and it works, however you get resistance as soon as the sleeve portion starts expanding so in limestone or sandstone, that's a lot of contact area, so a lot of funking/ maybe a YABR in instances where the sleeve is bonded to the rock by corrosion. So with corroded 1/2" sleeves, it's better to use 17mm x 153mm bits, or maybe even 18mm.
Why don't you use rotary hammers instead of trying to water cool a hammer drill? Is it a hardness thing?
The water is petty normal for core drills. These thin wall core drills will not function well or hold up to the hammering action on a rotary hammer water or no water. Many people use an sds to 1/2" chuck adapter to use a rotary hammer drill in spin only mode. As discussed and demonstrated in this video.
Maybe start glueing in 14mm (SS) concrete screws in to coredrilled holes - the concrete bolts will cut a thread into the smooth core drilled surface -
Has anyone tried drilling out the imbedded steel directly using Tungsten carbide cutters / drills?? In the machining world, drill and tap extraction is attempted so as to not destroy more parent material.
NB. Polyester and Vinyl Ester isn't Epoxy... It may be a 2 part glue, not Epoxy - chemical set "fixings" use whichever formulations the manufacturers deem best for purpose..
I get why people want to reuse holes. But given the faffing around needed - I think chopping and hiding the old studs is preferable. There’s lots of ways to use epoxy and sand/dust from the base of the crag to conceal things. Life is short.
I'm part of a team taking care of crags that people have been climbing since the 1960s… If people here were to have done that there'd be no rock left. You really have to start to think about crags as having lifetimes of 100s of years.
@@DrewNorthup well sure - if we are talking using the gear from the 60s. But modern stainless glueins have a lifespan that can reach over 100 years (in good conditions).
If you are worried about losing an extra 1/2" of real estate every 50 years then maybe you have bigger problems as every time you swap bolts - the holes get bigger (using the core drill method).
Ah yes the nerdy nerdy, good stuff.
I was expecting to see prices of over $100 a core drill. They typically aren’t under that, even for small sizes.
These diamond "glass and tile" ones tend to be much cheaper, and more of a disposable item
Home Depot rules, buy an extra box of tiles and then return it if you actually measured correctly.
Modern hammer (SDS) drills do have clutches, they just can’t be adjusted but they might save your wrist 😊
Yabr and other mechanical extractors work just fine if you have enough practice and spin.
This method seems over complicated and then you need to put a glue in. I feel it is not really feasible for anything other than single pitch crags.
Having used a Yabr, doodad, and several version of the Hurley pullers to remove several hundred bolts, I am switching to this method for most bolt removal situations. So much more effective as well as simpler, faster and cheaper. If I can't get it out with a tuning fork I am beaking out the thin walled core drill.
That taper lock needs to be kept very clean. Just fyi don't gall your tapers
2:44 Anglegrinder + single rope???
Or is there a backup that we cant see?
And all of this depends on holding the drill at the exact angle, especially if the original developer didn't put it in perpendicular 😬
It will cut thru metal, just takes more time. I found that the bit tends to self align around the bolt.
I can totally make this process even easier and more efficient, just after I solve the problem of making the new generation of highly mobile cordless magnetic drill press setups stick to bare aluminum I'll 100% do a low iron composition rock version! I promise. 🤔 (this totally seems like the best potential use of artificial gravity control, since the applications would be so limited by such a frivolous innovation in technology)🤣👍
Wiggle it... Just a little bit.
Think you forgot the bolts expand when you tighten them 😊
Is calling a Morse Taper a Morse cone a European thing?
And you couldn't find the bits at McMaster-Carr?
i looked for hours
and could not find the rock setting on my drill
I only have 10 and a pic of a drill bit... No rock
-1- Which size Morse Cone is this? I expect it to be MC1.
-2- How do you get the hole dry before glueing in a new one?
-3- And also, please don't glue in a bigger size bolt. The next time you would need a bigger core drill. Better to use the same size bolt and some extra epoxy.
Morse Taper. Not cone
"Last thing we want is a 20mm hole to replace a 3/8 hole"... How am I supposed to understand anything about those numbers. I would prefer metric all the way but if you have to use other measurement systems then tell all the number in that system. At least have the metric sizes displayed on the screen but even that is just a poor fix. Don't mix metric and imperial. Thanks.
just a word to anyone looking to replicate the guys drilling with one hand on the drill- that's a quick way to a broken wrist combined with torn everything in the elbow. all it takes is one bind. use both hands one on the back of the tool. basic power drill use 101.
Just disguise the old hole with epoxy and sand. Then drill a new hole
Much love ❤️ 🔩 ⚡️ ⛰️
Couldn’t you just use a stainless steel wire brush plunger to re roughen the interior of the hole.?
Yes, especially for softer rock. Any wire brush is fine, it doesn't have to be stainless. Plain steel wire brushes are much more easy to come by
You could always wear one of those hats that hold two beer cans and use plastic bottles for your water source.
Buying a thread adapter to replace the nipple to a common container thread would be a better concept. Screwing in a water bottle would substantially easier than running tube to a remote bladder.
It’s a great idea to drill around the bolt. Just, I see you are checking the diameter of the bolt to see if it fits inside the glass bit. Sleeve bolts expand as they got torqued and I guess you need bigger diameter bit (one or two millimeters) to go over them. Also water bottles are not good source for coolant. They are hard and gravity is not enough to squish them down, and you will end up with no water pressure. A silicone bladder may be a better option.
Also, spraying the inside of the bit with some lubricants (at least at the end of the drilling process) may help to prevent stuck bolts inside them.