Conflict of Interest?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- What is ethical for me to sell? Does something need a "brand name" to be ethical? Or a rating? Or is it a process? Is it ethical to sell something someone told me was super good enough without testing it myself?
👉 Learn and SHOP at www.hownot2.co...
👉 Best EMAILS on Earth: www.hownot2.co...
👉 SUPPORT US and get gear discounts hownot2.com/su...
👉 10% off ROCKY TALKIE by clicking www.hownot2.co...
Don't miss our engaging emails - www.hownot2.com/sign-up
"Big brands have a reputation to uphold" - But big brands make egregious errors all the time.
"There is a risk of you being biased or being a sell-out if you get paid" - I disclose way too much. I don't know if people are afraid I do "dirty deals" behind closed doors haha. And what does that even mean? EVERY paid athlete says these "Brand Here" things are my favorite "Device/Rope/Shoe" and I can almost guarantee you they don't feel that way. I know some that only take photos and don't use the stuff in real life. It's funny they think I risk being a sell-out when EVERY ad in your climbing magazine is a bunch of people who were paid to have their face associated with a brand 🙂.
I liked what @SVD_NL wrote:
If you turn "sell what you test" around, you get "test what you sell", and it seems like the most reasonable and ethical thing a store can do. I dont understand how this is a negative in any way.
Good Point @kristmadsen
"It's a conflict of interest for the manufacturer to test what they are selling."
I'm glad they do but it shouldn't be the only testing, that's for sure
The only concern here, IMO, is a legal one. You 100% need a lawyer to explain to you *_exactly_* what liabilities you're opening yourself to, what you need to do to protect yourself, and come together with a solution that meets your risk/reward/protection/price of protection, etc.
That's it. Done. Fin.
Also, I'm very big into RC helicopters. This niche market stuff is *_flat out insane_* when it comes when it comes to brand fans (I bite my tongue 🤣), knockoffs, lookalikes, *_private label products,_* products that use one tiny feature that's similar to another brand, etc, etc, etc.
Like, there's only so many ways to skin this cat & truly innovative products are unicorns.
So I can tell you right now, I'm not even a climber & I love the stuff you do like these videos:
*_BUT YOU WILL NEVER MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY_*
You could have a literal PhD earned by a years long research project regarding a singular device, and people will *_still_* tell you that you got it wrong w/o even reading your thesis/dissertation.
So, basically, be careful with this kinda stuff b/c I've seen dipshits ruin people, products, and businesses with their unending judgment/questioning of an entity's moral fiber/ethics/general humanity.
Don't let it get to you. You provide more technical data in this industry then ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD> So that person replying has their own duty to use that information responsibly to make their own informed decisions. Might be time to start creating all your pre-written responses for people like this so you only have to invest the time for them once.
Thank you for putting out your test information.
@@Iceberg86300spot on
This is the most ethical climbing store I know of. Keep up the good work Ryan, we need more people like you in the world.
It'll always be ethical as long as you remain as honest and transparent about the products you're testing, the methods by which those products are tested, and the results of those tests. The fact that you choose not to bring in some products simply because you appreciate and respect the amount of time & investment the creators invested speaks volumes of your character. Keep doing you and we will continue to trust you.
Very much agreed! and as far as the point about testing what you sell, as he said, everyone does that, and especially when it comes to like say power tools, plenty of companies lie or exaggerate that stuff, so the transparency in his tests means you know what the numbers mean moreso than you do for other companies really
How would we know if he's being honest or transparent, though? The normal reason you can be fairly sure of that would be "because they have no incentive to lie about it, why would they?" As soon as you sell the stuff, you DO have a HUGE incentive to lie and not be honest/transparent, but claim you are. Because it now makes you rich to do so.
Quick takes: Ethical to sell knock-offs? No. To sell off brand versions of commodity items? Heck yes! And I agree, no other retailer TESTS what they sell, if you do test what you sell that can't make anything worse! And publishing every little detail of those tests in the open? Fuck yeah!
I like that: testing what I sell can't make anything worse. Yup!
Some times knock offs introduce improvements that move the state of the art forward. Being first to market is already a huge advantage, originators should not be allowed to stagnate the market too. Ryan's testing can help determine if a knock off is a worthy competitor.
@@DustinMaki You know, that's a fair point! The other side of the coin is that if the moment you invent something someone else can jump on and make an identical clone - and lets assume the knock off performs perfectly well - why bother trying anything new?
Thank you! You hit the nail on the head “Don’t trust you!” I mean that in the best way possible. You share your thoughts and opinions. Not what you think others thoughts should be. If people are blindly trusting you, I think they missed the point.
Ryan, I am so on-board with what you say and do; its almost like we are drinking the same coolaid. Keep up with the amazing work!
I'm glad you do what you do. I feel better knowing there is someone out there pushing gear to its limits. It's comforting...
So my husband and I are both involved in route development. Definitely can attest that it’s mostly paid out of pocket for the majority of developers/re-bolters. There seems to be some misunderstanding around some of the points Ryan is trying to convey. Sorry Ryan @HowNOT2 if I got anything wrong here.
1) He is NOT going to be selling “knock-off” gear. Nor is he going on Amazon, Alibaba or AliExpress and buying a lot of cheap gear to re-sell.
Come on now, have a little bit more confidence in Ryan’s integrity.
2) The “no-name” “off-brand” stuff he is referring to is what primarily route developers or re-bolters would be using to equip the anchors. SS rings, chain and quick-links (maillon rapide/mallion). Previously and even now, route developers are purchasing “no-name” quick-links, chain and bolts from hardware or industrial construction stores. (Not that that is the issue, but there is usually also no info on where it came from, how it was tested or how strong it is. All you know is it’s beefy steel) The worst part though is when ZINC PLATED BOLTS are being bought and installed.
Ryan wants to make SS hardware more affordable and readily available to route developers and re-bolters. Plus he wants to personally test it.
So which bring us to the point of where will Ryan acquire this hardware.
If you follow Ryan, then you know he usually spends quite a bit of time consulting and getting feedback before making any big decisions.
Here are my own personal observations, having previously done factory inspections abroad.
You find a reputable factory that manufactures steel products you want, (quick-links, rings and chain are all a very common commodity). Being reputable, doesn’t mean they necessarily offer the highest or lowest price, but they do have their own internal testing and standards. They can provide data sheets for the raw materials, chemical composition for steel grade, etc. They have their own internal QA and QC. They have the ability to test and break random samples, according to whatever quantity you choose. Heck, you can even send an inspector to the factory to double-check and monitor the testing. Have an outside party do some testing too.
If you are concerned with SCC, then you probably should ONLY be using Titanium or HCR SS (per EN 959:2018)
Ryan is clearly not doing all this work all on his own. He already said he’s been talking to lots of others. He’s got connections in a lot of places and many people that are willing to help him keep doing the great work that he’s doing. So give him some credit. (or some $$)
I have absolutely no problem with you selling equipment, to the contrary I support the idea. I hope I speak for the community when I say that and when I say I really appreciate the blood, sweat and tears you and Bobby have put in over the years. I believe God knows your intentions and will repay you for the work you've done but until then, get that money brother at least enough to cover your costs!
Dude. I love the content. I’m actually two weeks away from buying a house in a MAJOR mountain area with tons of rocks. And I’ve already found a local climbing gym to help me train and get in the right shape and make the friends so I can go out and safely try these routes. I never wanted to climb a rock until I watched free solo. Then I found your channel. That’s when I learned it takes time, energy, effort, and money to do this sport. Keep doing what you’re doing. I’ll have my gear bought in the next few months.
Sometimes, what you are buying is not the product. It can also be the assurances that come with being from the brand. Consistency, services, liability, and maybe a lot more depending on the brand. You definitely could find a lot of bolts, quick links, etc from the construction industry and be plenty safe. Unless you want to be the one that offers those assurances, stay away from brands you don't have confidence in.
I'm not a climber. I'm a 35 year firefighter that teaches Tech Rescue. What I can tell you is that in general, firefighters a generally not the sharpest tools in the shed. I can't tell how many arguments/discussions I have had re: gear/use. Your channel, which I recumbent to every student, educates. I think this was one of your best videos. Thanks.
I don't climb, however I do use ropes and attaching equipment as part of the Fall Arrest equipment that I use when working at heights. I find your videos extremely informative regarding hardware that I encounter while working and can keep an eye out for suspect equipment that may be on site from other contractors. For this I am extremely grateful.
Do what you can to get high-quality hardware that will last longer at the craig for a fair price. Share links to break test videos on the product pages and let people decide for themselves. Your transparency and honesty shines bright Ryan!
I must admit that your channel really helped me conquer some fear. I was really afraid of lead climbing and falling. But when I started my course last year I stumbled across this channel. Seeing your tests on gear really helped me to trust the gear I use seeing the safety factors. Thanks for that!
You are very ethical, informative, and put things in a way where everyone can understand and just goofy enough for someone like me to remember and retain information.
The core of your value add IMO is you - your values and the content you make of breaking gear.
That's what set you apart from other folks in the space.
The reason, I buy from you is because I trust you and your a good guy.
The, "brand name" vortex is just a distraction.
Haters will always find something to hate, but your loyal follower base remains unshaken! We support and rally for you. 🙌🌻
This is so informative! Great job, fantastic reporting!🌻🌼🐝 Keep it up 🙌
There's only a conflict of interest if you're in a short-term gains mindset, which anyone who's been on your channel for longer than 2 days can tell is not the case. You've been putting out free, educational content for years, and are always extremely transparent, inspiringly transparent in fact. No other seller of climbing gear that I know of can say that.
Love these Monday update videos! Keep it up Ryan 👍
I think the biggest dilemma people have with “cheap” gear is a lack of liability that many mysterious manufacturers hold in producing and selling the gear.
If you can find a manufacturer that isn’t going to vanish on us the moment anything goes wrong I don’t see the issue with it.
“Sht sht, Jesus” is my favorite saying now
Yes. Provide clean needles. Its ethical because they are human and it keeps them alive.
You are great Man !
I am an mechanic and i did not trust any climbing gear and now i am a better climber and i hav no gear fear anymore !!!:)
Thank you !!
And take the haters not so serious they are ……… ;)
Greets from Austria (not Australia)
Disclaimer: Not fully watched yet
I wonder if there isn’t another type of test you should do: corrosion testing. Use something awful like salt water and vinegar (I’m sure you could find a good analogue for what corrodes stuff on real rock) concentrate and apply and use that as a secondary validation that the right type of stainless is used.
In my honest opinion, the ethical way is to be honest about it.
If you know, and the client should know, is best to let them know.
If you do not know, then the client must know that you do not know.
Also... if someone decide to use a gear way under rated for the job they are trying to do, is on then if they know the gear is underrated.
That is what I think is most ethical.
If I know exactly what I'm buying and it is complete thrash - I knowingly bought thrash, because I'll use this thrash as disposable and in some unimportant application that if it fails there is no harm to anyone or any property etc.. I feel like I should be able to buy the rubbish, so someone has to sell the rubbish.
And I prefer to buy it from someone who tells me "this is rubbish" than from someone who pretends that it is something it is not.
Also agree with you on harm reduction.
So those are the two main points to me, as long as the costumer knows what they are buying, and if your offering of cheaper products is so people who try to spend the least possible have something that is at least safe, go for it.
If you use your position to test some knock-off of something innovative, and then say "look, this doodad from no-name-brand works as well as the original, you can find it at my store", than that is a big no-no. But as you said, you haven't done that, and said you won't ever do it. So all is well.
Ryan that Lappas gear is insane awesome!
I know because I bought a bunch in Greece last fall
You might be the only importer
Go for it!
Excellent. I have no qualms with people making money by selling stuff and putting out content about the stuff they sell. I would much rather buy from an informed sales person than an uninformed person. I say go for it. If you waffle based on one ignorant comment/email then you lose momentum. Keep doing what you're doing, I'd be happy to buy Chinese Stainless hardware if you brake some of it and recommend it.
To be honest, I would love to see you getting some sponsorship from some namebrand companies that give you a load of money and a load of kit to break because I know that you're still going to do what you do best and break the shit out of it AND publish the actual results! I'm starting to wish more and more that some of these big companies would be a bit more open and honest about how they are getting their figures and what's crazy is that I'm starting to ignore the numbers on the kit and go for the more realistic numbers you are getting (only when stuff breaks under what it's meant to!) as I know what you did to get that number and I don't have any idea how the companies got their numbers. There really needs to be more transparency in all of this! 😅
Nice job....information is 💯🔥💯
This person that emailed you this is one of these morally righteous youtube safety patrol peeps who literally never leave their house to do anything. I wouldn't take it too personally you see these people on literally EVERY channel with people who are doing physical activities that has any risk whatsoever. It's disgusting. You're fine dude.
Thanks. This is very educational.
I think the needle comparison is pretty accurate
Yeah I think information is more important than maximised safety from the manufacturer. Somebody climbing could have sketchy gear, but still be ok if they know how to minimise risk and back up the weakest link in their system, however. somebody could know nothing about climbing, but own the worlds strongest carribeaner that they payd 40 bucks for from Eldrid of BD, and still very easily fall to their death. Information is the most important thing.
Also with Alpine style climbing, knowing the limits and abilities of your gear makes it more versatile, even if its not specificly built for that one purpose. maybe you have a waterproof bivvy that doubles as a big waterbottle, so if you're going on really long adventures with no water, you can fill your whole bivvy up with water and then carry it up a mountain, and then at night pour it into a bivy shaped hole so it freezes in the shape of a bivy, and then in the morning you can move the big bivy shaped ice chunk back into the bivy and continue carrying it, while having ice cooled water all day. now THAT is traveling in comfort.
Please don’t let the haters get under your skin. We love what you do, and appreciate a store selling tested gear. You are definitely super good enough.
It's a conflict of interest for the manufacturer to test what they are selling. Not so much for a retailer.
Omg, that's funny. Yes!
@@HowNOT2people telling you it's a conflict of interest might be embedded in the RUclips don't sell what you review mindset. Or they might be Chinese trolls, there's a lot of those too.
@kristmadsen I don't see an issue with what Ryan is doing, but I'd have to disagree with your assertion. If someone is benefitting (particularly monetarily) from the sale of something they are testing, then a conflict of interest exists. And that holds whether they're the original manufacturer or not. What I think a lot of people are forgetting is that the existence of a conflict of interest does not, by itself, mean that something is bad or unethical.
All it means is that there are two potentially conflicting interests at play. In this case, interest #1 is testing the gear as thoroughly as possible in order to find its limits, and interest #2 is making enough money to stay afloat. If he buys a large batch of quicklinks, he would likely lose a lot of money if he had to scrap the batch because it wasn't performing well enough in testing. That's a conflict of interest, but again, conflicts of interest are simply one of many factors that someone should consider when evaluating how trustworthy something is.
I don't see that conflict of interest as a problem because:
1. He is being very upfront about where the gear he sells comes from.
2. He is very clear about what testing was done and why it was done. He even posts videos showing the testing process where he discusses what he did and why he did it.
3. He posts the full test results online for everyone to see. And it sounds like he even has a link to those results in the listing of the item in his store.
If he were simply posting an Excel spreadsheet of the results and not showing any of the testing, I'd be more concerned about that conflict of interest. But that's not what he's doing. He's showing the testing process and is often even showing the linescale itself and the value on it in the video. Sure, maybe he could have deliberately miscalibrated the linescale to make it look like the gear broke at a higher value than it did. But he's shown no indication of that kind of behavior, and at some point, you have to trust that people are doing what they saw they're doing.
So, in summary, a conflict of interest exists, but I don't think it's an issue. What he's doing seems like a great idea, and I hope he's able to keep testing gear and to continue binging us amazing informative videos!
Brands definitely audit manufacturing sites. That is incorrect.
In some industries this is required by law.
There is a reason there are independent testing organizations that are not for profit. You can spin it however you want but the fact is you are placing yourself and your trust worthiness in a compromised position by selling products that you test.
I disagree. It’s much worse selling products you know nothing about. His testing isn’t a compliance stamp. He’s trying to see if it works and meets someone else’s rating!
The keyword for me is "unrated" i feel like thats opening up risk to him.
The catholic church is non-profit. Some USA state universities are non-profit. That part doesn't determine if it is good or bad. I do know it costs a LOT for that stamp.
I test the products I sell, I don't sell the products I test. Huge difference. Don't you wish every middleman did that?
Look up the word "tautology."@@HowNOT2
Some peeps may be confused about how and when Standards are Attained, Proven, Tested, Awarded, etc.
No Standards Seal is worth a dime if the Owner controls the steps to attaining the seal. So, accredited testers exist. Who document and report to the Managing Institution or Body.
If you want to be sure of a stamp, you can still check.
But like you say, some tests are magical hand waving, BUT THEY ARE NOT SNAKE OIL in Commonwealth Countries with Democracy, because the people refused to put up with excessive corruption, Places like China, Africa, Eastern Europe, South America, Canada, America, S.E.A, The Subcontinent, Asia Minor are full of corruption, judicial, bureaucratic, industrial, institutional.
The retail industry sucks.
Contract with a manufacturer that will meet your specifications and brand them "Super Good Enough". That way you will have a higher chance of consistency across orders/batches.
This is more philosophy than climbing. And I’m just fine with that.
Love the tone of the whole video
I love the message
I’m sorry you go this BS email…
How is it BS to want to know these things? It was important enough to make a video response to and I, personally, found the questions to be valid and the explanation to be informative. The fact that they address things like this is part of what makes them such a great channel and such a great store.
You're definitely crossing into some new territory here, but is it a problem? No. Just be open about what each thing is.
It's like in climbing: there is no cheating, only lying.
That said, I personally wouldn't emphasise your own product testing on the sales page for those products, as then you're then taking on the role of guarantor for them. Just be the middleman & let the manufacturers make the performance claims.
Your method is not a conflict of interest. That individual needs to actually study what that means.
I can't think of a single other person in modern day, climbing/outdoors activities, who gives so much valuable information back to the community. And all that you do with the store and putting other peoples safety above profits is incredibly commendable. I've already decided for myself that all my future Climbing purchases will be from your shop. Thanks for putting so much effort into what you do!
I really appreciate everything you and Bobby have done on here. The transparency on this channel is a breath of fresh air.
So true
Bredth
Truth
@@MrIneedalifenowam I missing a punchline here? Bredth of fresh air??
I think you have always been transparent enough I've always trusted your opinion. That trust wasn't easily earned. You worked hard for it through transparency and legitimate testing.
As long as you maintain transparency it's fine.
Sea kayaker here. Not a climber. Never will be a climber. RUclips has become a cesspool for so-called product reviews. Your channel is the gold standard for what everyone should be doing.
No issue that I see. Test what ever you want. Sell what you believe in/Will stand behind as quality. You can't be responsible for people using things incorrectly or a product failing
I appreciate selling to bolters at a reasonable cost. I have spent ridiculous amounts of money to replace bolts at my local crags. Sometimes I get donations to help, but for over 95% of it, it's my time and my money going into trying to keep these areas safe. I've been buying name brand quick links, but more than 75% of what I replace is hardware store junk. A good supply of stainless steel quicklinks at a good price would be very welcome.
Excellent point. Thanks for your work. I think that's the core message of what Ryan is talking about here, the bolting hardware that is not installed in the rock, but clipped to it.
Former rock climber, now sailing and going up my mast using arborist gear, like the Petzl ZigZag. Keep up the good work.
You want there to be the best gear out there for communities to use. We don't want you to 1) burn out because you need to keep working to break even, 2) go bust because your margins weren't high enough. Most companies go bust because of cash flow. Be brave and charge a little more if you need to. You'll always be out priced by Home Depot if people are going to get that stuff. Be careful, we love you, you're doing great.
Dont you worry. Hes 100% making a very good living out of it all lol. Out of youtube alone
As a developer, having access to tested "off-brand" metal goods would be a significant and welcomed opportunity to make it easier to use the right amount and quality of stainless on my anchors.
Dude you are probably more ethical than 99% retailers out there. Also you use the gear you sell. That speaks volumes about what you do. Also the effort that you put into trying to make the community better. Stuff that email in their ear.
(*100%) - as he isn't completely reliant on retail income. - ok semantics.*for a laugh
I have climbed on tons of sketchy bolts, rings, fixed draws, etc. in the past.
Not everything in the wild is still holding up to UIAA standards. I think it's great to have cheap overbuilt alternatives for these simple hardware things. I already stumbled on rings that might have once been tested but were 70% worn through. I would be way happier to use a tested but non rated quicklink in that case.
Go for it and thanks for your detailed thoughts!
Seems like you do an amazing job. You seem super honest enough ;).
I love watching what you do for fun. It seems like you’d do this for yourself because of your own curiosity and interests.
I’d buy anything from you because you seem super legit enough ;)
Hi, developer here and also someone whose family has done 10+years of sourcing overseas (importing). So "standards" are like the "funnel" a good has to go through to be this or that. Certifications are proof and verification it meets those standards. During which, manufacturers should be doing QA (Quality Assurance, which is checking stuff during production) and QC (Quality Control, which is checking stuff after production) to make sure a good product makes it to the end user.
*Here's an illustration: A restaurant makes a big pot of chili. "Standards" are all the right ingredients that get put into a chili. "Certification" is like the head chef tasting it and saying it can be served. However, after a few bowls have gone out, a rat craps into the chili. Now, if the restaurant did proper QA, they would have prevented a rat from even being in the kitchen. If they did some sort of QC, a waiter might notice, "Hey, that doesn't look like a black bean" before putting it on the customer's table.---So, yeah, even after following standards and certifications, manufacturers still need to abide with due diligence. This is of course an oversimplification.
Being that YOU are trusting YOUR life with the same products that you are selling to us. Plus you come across to me as a very honest person. I'll trust you over the sellers of several other products.
I hope no one trusts me but looks at the information themselves. I suppose people have to trust that the information I put on the website isn't doctored but I don't know what incentive it would take for that to be a temptation. Grab your popcorn for the video that comes out in 10 days :).
Dont forget CE allows self certification. So CE is not a guarantee of anything.
@Ryan - I’d buy the everloving hell out of off brand SS bolting gear. Ship to Canada soon pls!
Everything not plugged into the rock is in the ‘consumable’ category. Can be replaced.
When in doubt - just go thicker (quick links, chain etc etc).
We are shipping to Canada right now!!
The issue I have with the concept of testing 'off-brand' products and then selling as good stuff is the sample size vs. the consistency of manufacture.
If I had reasonable confidence that every part was the same the approach would be valid enough I'm sure. But that's part of the issue with knockoffs of any product.
That said, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of products out there that are super good enough. But I'm not sure that's something someone should be thinking about when they are in the middle of taking a whipper...
Edit: But that said... if you got the gear directly from the manufacturer and had some control over the outcome and tested a statistically meaningful sample of each batch I think you might be able to build some confidence in the product and the process?
I really should watch more before commenting. It sounds like you're on the right track with this! Conflict though? Doubt it. I'd rather buy from somebody that has seen he product break than someone who is making an implied promise based on a hope and a prayer.
How many tested per batch is a large enough sample size?
50% chance that some hardware (in the rock) you whipped on last year was definitely not rated. :)
If you're talking some lightweight aluminium and nylon gear, then you have a point, because that gear is carefully engineered to be just strong enough and even a small deviation in the material or manufacturing process can have a significant impact on it.
Steel gear isn't made like that. It's all made of standard alloys, because developing and producing a custom alloy to save a few grams or a few bucks per ton of raw material simply doesn't make sense given the price and availability of standard steel alloys. Also keep in mind that open gate strength of steel carabiners is often greater than closed gate strength of comparable aluminium ones, so even if some welds on steel gear aren't super consistent, your other gear is going to break first.
@@HowNOT2 I think that varies greatly depending on the sketch factor of the supplier!
@@hitnovak I think that requires making a big assumption that no steel supplier out there ever creates junk alloys either intentionally or unintentionally. If we had 100% assurance that everything was made to standard you'd be right. Given sufficient cross section you're always going to be super good enough with literally any of the industry standard alloys.
The trouble comes when you get a base material that has some really out of whack impurities. Hydrogen embrittlement is one that immediately comes to mind.
Granted, I would admit the majority of this is not a concern with even basic efforts being made to acquire reputable products. But it is an interesting subject never the less.
Crazy that certain companies don't realize the benefits of sponsoring your channel would bring them even though you are non bias to all. You should take on sponsors for real. You deserve that benefit for your hard work! Thanks!
Can't be sponsored and non-biased. Our brains just can't turn off the knowledge that, for example, a particular company is responsible for your livelihood. It's important to at least disclaim the relationship.
19:35 That debacle is why I no longer buy Black Diamond anything. That is a company which is demonstrably willing to let its faulty gear kill you rather than admit that it's defective.
I love the transparency. I don't think theres any issues with testing the gear you sell, you just need to make sure the testing is representative, and be transparent about the fact these tests do not substitute a safety rating.
I do think it's unethical to sell copyright/patent infringing products, or products that don't live up to their actual safety rating by a large margin. You also need to watch out that there isn't a lot of batch variation on "sketchy" gear, and you just happened to test a good production run.
But i trust you know how to inspect it all and do some continuous QA.
If you turn "sell what you test" around, you get "test what you sell", and it seems like the most reasonable and ethical thing a store can do. I dont understand how this is a negative in any way.
Edit: i wrote this after a couple minutes of watching, and you adressed everything a lot better than i did. Nice job!
I like that - "test what we sell"
I think what people need to realize is that a tremendous number of the products they are buying are produced in China, possibly assembled and checked in the US or Europe (usually not much), and shamelessly marked up to premium prices by brands that realize they are working in a niche sector. Someone buying those same components from the same factories and simply not charging a fortune is not unethical. Probably more ethical than claiming a product is "made in the USA" and charging 4-10x cost.
That is the stuff that drives me nuts. The other part is when people think it's bomber because there was a USA flag on the website haha
@HowNOT2 I'd say 95% that is "Made in the USA" is with 99% parts sourced from foreign countries.
@@jamespooler8809 that doesn't actually pass the requirement. There is a legal standard for all those labels.
www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/advertising-marketing/made-in-usa
@@jamespooler8809for a carabiner, that doesn’t make much sense. Anything more complex than that, for sure though.
@@HowNOT2 Or god forbid that a USA flag actually means that the gear is being correctly checked for quality. Remember when BD sent out a load of slings held together with sticky tape straight after shipping all their production back to the US thinking they'd do a better job?
It's like buying an off-brand carbon fork for your road bike then bombing a hill at 45 MPH. Do you have confidence this fork will withstand the impacts of bumps on this descent? If you have any question in your mind, it's not worth the cost savings. Same with climbing gear or an old-ish climbing rope. Is $250 worth your peace of mind?
Thank you, Ryan. Thank you for the store, the bibles, the hours of information, the hours of entertainment, and the hours of deeper thought. I wish I were 40 years younger and getting into this, rather than just discovering slack lining and returning to climbing. I'll take a sterile needle any time, Jesus!
You have done so much for the sport of climbing (and the offshoots) all while trying to remain a virgin with regard to outside influence and conflicts of interest. I honestly cannot think of another RUclipsr who has contributed so much. You remind me of the early days of the internet when we created things and gave them away for free before the net became so commercial. Unfortunately you will always get the contrary folks who only see bad when you do good. This is the nature of what the internet has become and for some reason those cretins seem to gravitate to it. Try to ignore their acidic rants and criticisms. And keep up the good work! (As an aside, I work with metals and I wholeheartedly support your search for alternatives to branded stainless products. After all, what costly design has been done on these which warrant the high cost? None of the climbing hardware companies, to my knowledge, have developed new grades of metals. And the stainless they use is purchased commercially and made into their hardware. Anyone can get hold of that grade of steel and sell it without the KN/UIAA rating stamped on it. I would be willing to go 1 step further [though no doubt you have considered this more carefully than I have] and use non-climbing-brand stainless fixed hardware like glue-in bolts. There are a number of steel bolt manufacturers who stamp their hardware such that you can verify and trust them. Dont forget that high strength, rated bolts werent created for climbers. They were created for engineers who required a specific strength and specific characteristics to accomplish a task. Catching a human from a fall or hauling a bag are generally far below what these were designed to bear. An engineer buying from that manufacturer trusts their consistency and I believe you can too - with the testing you do, of course).
A certain brand of aerial boom lifts that go up 60+ feet have an issue. If they aren't maintained properly as per the manufacturers direction, there is a chance a wheel falls off, which can cause a tipover. There's no warning for this happening, and it has happened multiple times and people have died. I'm bound by confidentiality to not disclose which company, but they're not recalling them. It's not just climbing. It's large companies wanting profits over safety. I'd trust my belayer with my life over any faceless brand or regulatory body.
As a matter of fact..... where are these types of tests from other retailers? Hell amazon activly sells knock of tourniquets that fail in combat operations..... meanwhile you are testing shit and people are crying wolf.
Exactly! At least you show us actual testing. Who knows if they even tested something or even if they actually did.
Information is always more valuable than rating. I would comfortably climb on unrated, non-locking novelty carabiners from Alibaba if I had to because I know how to make them redundant many times over.
Awsome channel keep doing what you started :) And try not to get sucked into the preformence seeking franzy of big channels :)
You and Bobby have added so much value, information, and quelled concerns about so many things. Keep doing what you’re doing. If you test something and put a stamp of approval on it and have enough confidence to sell it in your store, I’d trust it.
Thanks for all of your guys work.
The big thing ethically to me is how do you know your testing is comprehensive? Like a rope is probably quite easy, break it in loads of ways, check it doesn’t slip etc and you’ll have a good idea of whether it’s a good product. What about an off-brand grigri though? You can test it all the ways you want but (I imagine you’ve seen Hard Not Easy testing this stuff) what if holding it in a particular way makes it utterly useless and dangerous? Can you guarantee you’d pick up on it? Maybe you and anyone else you test with just don’t use it in that manner and so it doesn’t even occur to you. It’s not totally unreasonable with a more complex device like that to think there is some major design flaw in a very small component that you wouldn’t think of. Big name brands have (hopefully) been refining their products for decades now and have analysed every accident that’s ever been documented to look for improvement. Any newish no name brand won’t have.
I personally enjoy that you are making testing and data more interesting to look at. I probably wouldn’t spend as much time as I spend watching your videos, looking at the same info on a spreadsheet. Im trying to get back into climbing after a long hiatus and unrelated injury, and your videos are helping me decide what gear I should consider getting. Thanks for all you do!
It is just "store brand".
I trust your method.
Okay, fine, I will buy a hat, goddamn.
(seriously though love your shop)
Where a product is made isn't directly correlated to its quality. That is a function of the design specifications and the quality control standards followed during manufacture. I think it is a noble effort to test these knock unbranded products and provide reliable and repeatable data on how they perform. However, I don't know if I would officially endorse such products. I think providing the data to the user and allowing them to decide if it is "super good enough" for their applications is about as far as I would go.
Watching the video, I think there is some frustration about the safety philosophy of certifications and Norms. I do think you (and a lot of people) don't really understand the safety philosophy of these standards. Still you also have a point in some (alot of) cases.
The Standards are testing strength indeed on the best case scenario. Or at least a very good one. This would yield info about the mean breaking strength (in that scenario) and the Characteristic strength. However, this does not mean that no thought has been put in other scenario's. This is accounted for in Structural engineering in factors to get to the DESIGN STRENGHT!. This can include factors to account for degredation over time, dynamic load applications, corrosion, unaccounted type of loading. Also on the load side there is a uncertanty about the max. load in needs to hold. Therefore these two uncertainties are statistics and you can place a chance of failure number on this.
In the climbing world however this is now communicated (normally it would specify "work load" where all the safety factors are implemented. Instead they leave it to the user to account for a "propper" safety factor between Characteristic strength and Characteristic loading. In climbing with carabiners this is mostly done for you because manufactures need to have a certain safety factor to be rated as Climbing gear. So there is considerations about all these other effects but they are simplified so not every manufacturer needs to do these complex tests. Instead one accepted safety marge is used to account for all these things. This is a simplification that has offcourse it's dangers, and could be wrong.
There is however testing of these complex failure mechanisms like corrosion or dynamic loading by the best company's and they also work closely with the standards (commissions) to make sure there is adequate safety margens between "mean breaking strength" and "characteristic breaking strength" and the expected load for propper use.
hope this helps to take some frustration away about the standards and gives others some view of why these big safeties exist between expected loads and strenght . They are not for nothing!!
Metal is metal for the most part but I personally would only sell products that have some sort of certification or minimum breaking strength etc stated by the manufacturer (if MBS then need to add a suitable FOS) for liability purposes. In the off chance somebody got injured or died from gear you sold and then you were sued you need to be able to prove you did your due diligence to ensure the product was safe to use for climbing. In this video you gave examples of larger companies selling products that have failed but they have engineering documents, material certs and some sort of testing data to back up that they did their due diligence so if/when a lawsuit happens the judge either sides with them or insurance covers the costs (assuming no gross negligence etc). These extra documents, testing etc is what makes these products more expensive especially being in a niche industry and therefore smaller batches and higher markups.
Unfortunately doing your own tests as you do probably increases your chance of a lawsuit because most of the people buying from you know you are doing these tests yourself and that these products aren't certified for climbing (unless you cert yourself). Sadly these people probably wouldn't think of suing if they bought it from a different climbing store because they would likely have assumed it was a climbing safe product. Even sadder some of these same people would probably use poorer quality hardware not intended for this use to save a few bucks, which I know is what you are trying to help prevent.
At a minimum if bringing in your own uncertified hardware I would want documentation from supplier on material certs and a drawing with dimensional tolerances etc so you have enough information to do some calculations to determine a theoretical MBS (if the supplier won't provide you with one) and then have a testing procedure for each batch to ensure they meet/exceed that MBS. Then you at least have an argument to prove you did your due diligence although it will obviously be more difficult and costly then passing the liability onto supplier/manufacturer.
In short I wouldn't call this a conflict of interest (we know you are reputable) but I would warn against the extra risks you may be bringing on by doing so.
Question for all those that place so much faith in certified/tested bolts, hardware, and whatnot that youre climbing on: How certain are you the person that installed them did a good lasting job? Or even removed potential death blocks or other hazards on the route you're climbing? Yes, "rock climbing is inheritantly dangerous", yada yada yada... I'm not making an excuse developers should just use whatever. But to me, the stuff is developers put into the rock is just a fraction of the whole picture. Next is what we equip the anchor with, etc.
It's funny. Like manufacturers that make climbing hardware and sellers are "to be held accountable"? But developers that installed this stuff into the rock aren't??? Instead it's "use at your own risk"? Haha.
To be clarify my stance, the bolts or glue-ins going into the rock (the more permanent stuff) should be the right material for the area, a bare minimum of "tested" while certified is much much better, and installed properly. Next stuff that should be of good quality (rated+tested) is the stuff that can be replaced, but also to be permanent like the quicklinks and any chain. And then you have the consumables: rings, captive eye carabiners, spring hook carabiners, anchor hooks, ram horns, and such---these should be strong and of good quality, but developers should find reasonable ways to save money on these---which one of the points Ryan is making in this video.
Thank for everything that you provide for the climbing community. The test you do must cost a fortune and the amount information you have provided is appreciated.
I really like how you are transparent and how you communicate information. Unfortunally I live in Brazil and shipping here is complicated, takes a long time and isn't cheap, otherwise I would be buying all my stuff from your store.
I find peoples aversion to "made in china" to be quite hilarious since probably much of the stuff they own/use is more or less made in china, they just never bothered to check. Sure when you go to wish/aliexpress etc and order the cheapest stuff you're bound to get absolute garbage, but that doesn't mean they're are incapable of high quality manufacturing. Especially something as simple as carabiners, quicklinks, chain/rings etc. that are up to spec 🤣.
The main problem dealing with china is finding a reliable supplier/manufacturer and being able to independently verify the quality, both of which most individuals ordering random stuff from china have very little control/interest of. So having somebody like you that can source them reliably and will test the products to destruction to verify that they're super good enough, with proof to show, before putting them up for sale I'd 100% trust.
Like gdamn most "brand name" manufacturers release less information about their break testing than can be gained from your videos, if seeing with your own eyes instead of spec sheets/stamped ratings isn't good enough then I don't know what's. Thank you so much for all the valuable work you do for the climbing community.
I have to say that this is probably the best "rant" video I have ever watched. To me your credibility really shines through. Also a mighty fine way to promote your store. I would say that anyone who would have a problem with what and how you do things after watching this is not someone you want as a customer anyway. I'm not (really) a climber (we started bouldering just before lockdowns and haven't got back to it for a variety of reasons) but your information is useful & educational. I do have a safety rope for when I work on the roof, and I use some climbing hardware for kayak safety gear. I also have two young grandsons who love to climb everything (e.g. sofa, chest of drawers) right now, so hope to build and extend a climbing wall as they grow.
Thanks so much for all the information & entertainment. I will be supporting your store when and if at all possible.
Oh, and "you'd get into the car to drive to the funeral" is one for the ages!
To throw in one point: While it is absolutely wrong that standards (just like scientific papers) are behind a paywall, the point of a standard isn't to catch the outliers, it is to create a method which is a) easy to reproduce and b) somewhat "super good enough". I mean, give me half a day and i will determine the eigenfrequency of the bolt and get it out of the wall with a tenth of the rated force. That number is funny but useless. Furthermore slow pulling, in theory, should land in the lower part of the spectrum compared to fast/explosive pulling.
Great, you're kicking the same hornets nest I want to.
Count me in on your side.
The weight of A commercial certificate is equal to the tensile strength of a sphere multiplied over cos90 / √2πfc
Looks good..
Tensile strength of a sphere is highly theoretical
Cos 90=0 and √2πfc is an irrelevant electronics formula ..but it's enough to divide you from your money and not me from mine.
Transparent testing is king.
Transparent calibration of testing equipment is also key.
A cylinder of steel with a precise diameter and hight, is the most transparent verifiable calibration weight
I actually have that exact Camp Lift knockoff. I honestly didn't even know that it was fake when I bought it - had I known, I wouldn't have bought it (coz I love Camp).
I've genuinely considered buying the Camp one, which may be a little bit silly as I know that Italy imports Chinese workers into the country, pays them Chinese wages, and then grossly abuses the "made in Italy" moniker at our expense, but still... I really really really love Camp gear (I hope Camp don't do that shxt).
I'm perplexed.
Wait... Petzl don't make their unbelievably overpriced crap in-house!? 😂😂😂
Thank god I'm not one of those yuppie wankers with Petzl EVERYTHING!! 😂😂😂
The potential problem I have with cheap non-brand gear is this; you test one batch, it's good, you sell it. What about the next batch? How do you know they didn't fuck up the metallurgy between the two?
Most name brands proof test every piece of gear, as far as I know? (I can find proof marks on all of my carabiners, and I hope they'd do it with soft goods too?) They at least have trained quality control people to do consistent testing. I highly doubt ali baba manufacturers are doing that.
auto destroying "climb x" hangers (CSC cracks), or rockland stainless bolts disaster are very good reason no to import cheap bolting gear. All of those gear were way strong enough during testing, for sure. ZINC platted gear, even rusty is WAY safer than poor stainless, cold worked (leading to martensite), failling due to CSC. I don't even talk about welding. Sure, all those errors have been already done by fixe also (and others)... The interest of 316L, is not only the high resistance against corrosion, but mainly the high resistance against very poor manufacturing. If you don't have something to check chemical analysis, you are alaways at risk to receive something else, this risk can be higher depending of culture... Micro cracks on stainless is way sketchier than all the rust of the world. By the way, trying to get cheaper gear for bolting is still a cool idea, thank you RYAN.
Yes, micro-cracks on stainless is way worse than rust. Any area susceptible to that should have titanium and avoid stainless altogether. Not every area has that risk though.
I wonder if XRF is good enough or if you need full on digestion.
I can do both but we aren't an ISO rated lab so it gets into the same ballpark.
If you are buying by the pallet you can absolutely ask for materials certifications and then test some yourself at a commercial lab.
@HowNOT2 did I miss a video? I don't remember hearing about micro fractures since the aluminum carabiner tests... I use a lot of steel gear for arb work, and I frequently let it fall 75'+ onto whatever is below...😮
The rusty quick link was the original Topless Dome anchor. Broke at 47kN at 3:22 in the "44 year old cave anchor" video.
Another one in the same video survived over 89kN before breaking the machine, in my favorite "What happened here???" moment.
@@matiascamprubi-soms7719 cracks in stainless (stress corrosion cracking) is different than micro fracture.
Any manufacturer may change materials or procedures at any time, invalidating prior tests. We think you MIGHT catch a running change and alert us to problems. I would feel immensely more comfortable buying Alibaba products resold by you than anywhere else. Simply because you, or experienced climbers around your store might notice a difference in an item on a shelf and think to test it again. It is a real value add. We accept our own risks.
Just know that the 'no names' might change more frequently than well known brands and be less forthcoming about admitting mistakes. That might make you feel like you should test them more, potentially leading to burnout and spending more time on products that are making you less money. It isn't unethical. It might be impractical. But if you sell the good, cheap stuff, we will love you even more for it.
There are two CE markings and they look almost identical! One is conformité européenne (EU standard). The other is China Export. (Not a standard)
The name brands with the CE or UIAA logos are also required to have a quality management system, making sure that they sell stuff of equal quality across the board.
Does that mean they never make mistakes? Nope. Stuff happens and they should do recalls, but at least there's a standards agency looking over their shoulder.
If an off brand manufacturer can demonstrate (with maybe a different standard or by being transparent about their manufacturing process) that the stuff they're selling is of a similar level of quality to the stuff they did test, I wouldn't have an issue selling that stuff in a market that doesn't require a specific mark (like CE for the EU).
You can also test the crap out of that gear and keep testing it over time to get a feel for their consistency if they can't tell you about their manufacturing processes. Wouldn't even be a bad idea for the name brands, just to keep them honest.
All the testing in the world means nothing if the manufacturer is making an inconsistent product to begin with.
Brands like Petzl or Edelrid have extensive quality control systems to ensure their products are consistent and reliable. Raw materials such as metals are checked to ensure that they are of the right quality; products are routinely tested to failure to detect faulty batches; employees are suitably qualified, trained and have oversight. Design is extensive and constantly being improved, failures are documented and designs are amended and there is extensive guidance available on how the products should be used under different circumstances.
With offbrand products none of this happens, it's entirely up to luck the quality of materials they use and the individual made it. There is little to no guidance for use. You are playing Russian roulette with your life to save $100. One item may work initially and then fatigue through poor design or materials, the next may fail immediately.
I love your videos. Sell whatever you want, the community would not accept you if you were doing shady shit. Hopefully you make some money off the shop and you can finally buy a super high speed camera sp we can see shit break at 20k frames/second.
the statement about BD testing their stuff, going above and beyond the standards? That's why I like Edelrid and Mammut. They even try to come up with new standards. That's what I want to trust my life with. I also want to see more transparency in the future...