Super Easy, Super Cheap DIY Bone Conducting Headphones

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  • Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024

Комментарии • 187

  • @karlmyers6518
    @karlmyers6518 4 года назад +2

    You are just too cool for school. Ordered first bits for my kiln. 5 electrolytes ready for plating. Koh has arrived along with belts and pulleys to finish parts tumbler and have 8 broken TVs coming soon. I'll be a member middle of July. Thank you mate for changing my life and my outlook

  • @BoB4jjjjs
    @BoB4jjjjs 4 года назад +4

    That is a new one on me, but I remember using just the coils at school as an experiment, I can't remember how well it worked, but we did hear something. Our physics teacher had some strange ideas when teaching, strangely, it got our attention. He had plants doing all sorts of small voltage things, even lighting their own diode lights at night, charging a small battery during the day.
    He had plants playing musical notes, which would change when you touched the plants or come near them, I never found out how he did that.

    • @michaeldean5787
      @michaeldean5787 4 года назад

      Have you ever heard of The Private Life of Plants? I think it might explain how the notes were made when you touched the leaves. Plants are aware of more than we give them credit for.

  • @barrywhitley2535
    @barrywhitley2535 4 года назад +4

    Robert, I am sure if I sent you the contents of my rubbish bin, you would come up with some amazing, mind blowing gadget. Great videos.

    • @mkeyx82
      @mkeyx82 4 года назад +1

      Go for it!

  • @ronrattink9327
    @ronrattink9327 4 года назад +3

    Hey Robert, I just happen to have a small useless drone with four of those tiny motors and thought I'd give it a try. I took a closer look at the how they were assembled and saw they have a nice gearing system under the props and decided to have a go at a possible wind generator conversion instead. I know, this is about bone conducting speakers but after removing the electronics and re-soldering the motor wires together to a red LED; I actually managed to get it to light up. woohoo..
    4 baby tiny motors generated 3 volts or there abouts in a strong wind.. Nothing to shout about but still fun to try. I wonder what a proper sized drone with rewired motors for higher amps could do???
    Anyway, thought I'd share .

  • @gordslater
    @gordslater 4 года назад +8

    I tried this with a nearby Deltic locomotive. My ear hurts but it's great for Deep Purple and Black Sabbath.

  • @werxeh8027
    @werxeh8027 4 года назад +14

    As luck would have it, I have one of those tiny hand sized drones without a controller in the cupboard. I'll have to measure up the motor size and see if I can design something to 3D print to make it wearable

    • @Arachnoid_of_the_underverse
      @Arachnoid_of_the_underverse 4 года назад +4

      Maybe mount it on the arm of a pair of sunglasses.

    • @werxeh8027
      @werxeh8027 4 года назад +2

      @@Arachnoid_of_the_underverse Aye that could work. Or just a piece of solid but bendable wire to be honest, just wrap it around your ear so the motor is in the right place

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +6

      go for it mate - can you do a vid?

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +7

      I much prefer your print a housing idea mate - it would look so cool and bone headphones are pretty expensive

    • @NorthernKitty
      @NorthernKitty 4 года назад +1

      Awesome idea!! For those similarly interested, there are some nice flexible filaments out there that should be comfortable enough to wear behind the ear. I'm guessing TPU would have the best balance of stiffness to hold the motor and flexibility to be comfortable, probably something with a shore hardness around 90A? Anyone who hasn't printed with flexible filaments before, use slower print speeds, try to feed filament in as direct a path as possible (direct drive extruders preferred) and lower the retraction rates (sometimes all the way to zero) as this filament jams easily.

  • @leeorshimhoni8949
    @leeorshimhoni8949 4 года назад +3

    Try a pzt (piezoelectric plate) instead. Smaller , larger contact area. You can stick it with dental glue/round neck clip, like around the head ring clip.

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      cheers mate

    • @sofa-lofa4241
      @sofa-lofa4241 4 года назад +1

      @Redrooster I suppose 3 inch woodscrew are out of the question then? ;-)

    • @gordslater
      @gordslater 4 года назад +2

      @@sofa-lofa4241 Now you tell me. I ground off the tips because they were meeting in the middle. My shirt is a hell of a mess now

  • @skydance8017
    @skydance8017 4 года назад +1

    I remember an earlier cell phone that would sit in your teeth as a filling, worked on the same principle. Then there's Patrick Flanigan's neurophone that enabled the deaf to hear (via electrical stimulation of the 8th cranial nerve...I think?...it's been a while). Good vibrations!

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      yeah just read that one

    • @gcewing
      @gcewing 4 года назад

      That neurophone thing looks extremely bogus. There's an ad for it on Amazon that doesn't say anything about hearing, just that it "balances the left and right hemispheres of the brain", whatever that means.

  • @3dmaker699
    @3dmaker699 4 года назад +9

    YOU CRACK ME UP ROB, BONE DRONE HEADPHONES, WHAT NEXT?

  • @SpellsOfTruth
    @SpellsOfTruth 4 года назад +2

    That seems similar to Antonio Meucci's discoveries in communications back in the late 1800s with deaf people. He could put electrodes in deaf peoples mouths(i forget if it was under the tongue or connect to teeth) and the deaf person could hear the communications signal(so could normal people).

  • @yethinderragav
    @yethinderragav 4 года назад

    I did this a long time ago! if u bite the rotor with your teeth, the sound will be more clear and bass will be awesome. If you don’t want the bass then bite the shell of the motor and that gives out a clear audio.

  • @bilibong0101
    @bilibong0101 4 года назад +1

    Hi Robert how about using a battery toothbrush motor I've got many of these from my old brushes cost approx £3-4 each bit tricky getting them out sometimes though

  • @Thebigmanmetaldetecting
    @Thebigmanmetaldetecting 4 года назад +1

    You can also make an invisible bone conduction headphone by using a tiny neodinium magnet and wraps of copper wire all you do is put the magnets in each ear right in ( they can be retrieved using the head of an iron nail) power the copper with a 9v battery and put the audio input through the loops of copper wire and with the wire around your neck you hear the audio inside your head it's really freaky, it's along the same principals they use for high level security earpieces ( which is where I stole the idea from when I worked as a close protection body guard) it feels a little bit weird putting a tiny magnet in your ear at first but you get used to it

    • @suckless489
      @suckless489 4 года назад

      Can you make a video of this? Sounds like an awesome concept

    • @Machardy
      @Machardy 4 года назад

      I have just tried to make this concept to no prevail. Attached the coil necklace to an amp, then using a neodymium magnet to receive but coil isnt affecting the magnet any idea?

  • @Crewman2770
    @Crewman2770 4 года назад

    If I remember right, in the 70's a retail company in Yorkshire (Hepworth & England) sold an acoustic collar that draped over the shoulders and played music "only for the listener" I believe the product was from Denmark.

  • @stevetobias4890
    @stevetobias4890 4 года назад +2

    I wonder if this works to help deaf people hear? It would depend upon the cause of deafness of course.

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      yeah I suppose so

    • @sofa-lofa4241
      @sofa-lofa4241 4 года назад +2

      Many years ago deaf people were taught to 'hear' by picking up tiny vibrations with their lips,
      The teacher and student would stand close together and both press their lips against a balloon, the teacher would make letter and vowel sounds at first and then later on fully formed words,
      My uncle is profoundly deaf, he is too young to have been taught using this method but he knew someone at the deaf club who was

    • @jamesbrown99991
      @jamesbrown99991 4 года назад +1

      @Jov Ven Vibrations from the bone-conduction phone bypass the eardrum. Some deaf people have bone-anchored (i.e. an anchor screwed into the skull) bone-conduction earphones, so they get plenty of bone music

    • @stevetobias4890
      @stevetobias4890 4 года назад

      @Jov Ven with some forms of hearing impairment, it is the "hairs" in the inner ear that pic up the vibrations and then nerves carry these vibrations to the brain which then stitches it together into the audible waves that were transmitted.
      With bone conducting the vibrations amplify to the fluid in the inner ear which is p picked up by those very same nerves so this does have applications. Just look at cochlear implants, it's similar in a way.
      This could help old people losing their hearing due to the degregation of those small hairs that amplify sound to the inner ear fluid sacks.

  • @JASONZONE
    @JASONZONE 9 месяцев назад +1

    Wow 😲 awesome 👏🏻😊

  • @mikew2046
    @mikew2046 4 года назад +1

    Thanks for the cool idea....
    I tried it and with drone motors -----put one behind each ear and my ears started flapping--- ( just kidding)
    Appreciate all you share.

  • @sofa-lofa4241
    @sofa-lofa4241 4 года назад

    I presume the motor isn't actually turning but instead vibrating the commutator/shaft assembly?
    Tiny motors can be found in old mobile phones, they are used for vibration alert, if its not actually turning then you wouldn't even need to take the weight off the shaft (can be very difficult without destroying the motor!)
    Nice project!

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      yeah it just vibrates mate - on these little motors you can just snip the shaft off with a pair of pliers

  • @BenMitro
    @BenMitro 4 года назад +3

    What a bloody good idea!

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      I know right! - good old mickykick lol

    • @jouleml
      @jouleml 4 года назад

      Very bloody!

    • @K9JT
      @K9JT 4 года назад

      I hope not actually bloody of an idea for the ear ;-P

  • @michaelkoroneos2487
    @michaelkoroneos2487 4 года назад

    Similar devices are used by security personel. They allow them to listen to commands without compromising their ability to perceive ambient sounds in their environment. Also it is easier and clearer to hear in noisy situations (e.g. concerts) without pluging their ears and turning up the volume.

  • @mdsayemsaif4130
    @mdsayemsaif4130 4 месяца назад

    Hi sir,
    Hope you are doing well.
    I want to know that if I want to make a speaker like this than shall I use a shaft less motor or vibrator ??

  • @niknikwest
    @niknikwest 4 года назад

    I do that with my students (kids) but I need a very high vol so I do it with a toy we take apart and crazy vol.
    Another thing we do as part of this class is take apart the toy's motor take out the coils and recoil one on the back of a paper cup with a magnet to make a speeker.
    I strongly recomend high tech low tech site where they made a lovely copper paper coil that works and then they make a pillow speeker too

  • @jakubsencak8371
    @jakubsencak8371 4 года назад

    I didn't know it was possible to use a motor but it is great if it works. There is a product already on market Dayton Audio BCE-1 that is made exactly for this purpose

  • @wickedprotos1937
    @wickedprotos1937 4 года назад +1

    Awesome! You are a good man!

  • @videomentaryproductionschannel
    @videomentaryproductionschannel 4 года назад

    What a cool ideas it really works, if you use two you get stereo, saves wearing headphones or ear leaves, so cool😄

  • @xdevs23
    @xdevs23 4 года назад

    I tried it with a small AC motor. Connect to an amplifier and hold the motor to an empty plastic botte and there you have yourself a cheap speaker.
    It also works with DC motors!!!! I tried it with a bigger one and it works

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      Thanks for sharing

    • @xdevs23
      @xdevs23 4 года назад

      @@ThinkingandTinkering You're welcome! Would be cool if you could try to use more things to make speakers... Perhaps you can find something revolutionary?

  • @mrjason9382
    @mrjason9382 10 месяцев назад

    Thanks for sharing

  • @akosv96
    @akosv96 4 года назад

    This would make a very spooky Halloween special.

  • @user-yd4nk1es6n
    @user-yd4nk1es6n Год назад

    Amazing video!However, I'm a little worried about the sound quality, sound leakage and water resistance of the DIY Bone conduction headphones.I am using Wissonly Hi Runner bone conduction headphone now, before buying it, I saw a video where they dissected the product. I have found that a good product requires a lot of effort in terms of details.

  • @sarchlalaith8836
    @sarchlalaith8836 4 года назад +2

    That's brilliant, can I ask how good is the sound quality?
    Because bone mics are expensive

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      it's actually pretty good - give it a go mate and see for yourself

    • @sarchlalaith8836
      @sarchlalaith8836 4 года назад +2

      @@ThinkingandTinkering I will. I'm making an altyn ballistic resistant helmet so I need one in it anyway (hence my question about the acrylic in the other video and being bulletproof)
      It's for airsoft
      As always, I love the video, simple explanation and how to format. Imo best channel on RUclips bar none

    • @werxeh8027
      @werxeh8027 4 года назад

      @@sarchlalaith8836 Attaching it to the helmet should provide wonderful resonance anyway, assuming you remove padding from where your ears fit in. Incidentally, where Robert tests it here isn't supposed to be the best location for a conductive bone speaker, best place seems to be the top of the jaw bone just in front of the opening of your ear. Could work really well inside a motorcycle helmet with the padding keeping it pressed against the correct part. It is worth noting the motor can get a bit warm if it's surrounded by insulation though.

  • @valveman12
    @valveman12 4 года назад

    That is really cool! I will give that a try because...why not!

  • @tind33p
    @tind33p 4 года назад

    I did the same thing with the motor, hooked to an amp, then bite the axle, when i was a kid in the 90's Lots of fun!

  • @brainretardant
    @brainretardant 4 года назад +1

    Robert I have always wanted to make a sound frequency shifting circuit to allow hearing outside of normal ranges. High or low. I have been waiting for hearing aids to create frequency shifting around damaged regions. Is this doable?

  • @davestech6357
    @davestech6357 4 года назад

    There are videos using floppy drives as speakers on RUclips too. They are amazing. Look up starwars march or Darth Vader march.

  • @michaelfawver3436
    @michaelfawver3436 4 года назад

    What a brilliant idea!

  • @blg53
    @blg53 4 года назад

    Wouldn't an inductor with an iron membrane serve as a better, smaller and cheaper sound transducer than a motor? Not criticizing btw, just asking?

  • @breezer1788
    @breezer1788 4 года назад

    Thanks Robert.

  • @pulesjet
    @pulesjet 4 года назад

    piezo elements work quite good for making Bone Phones. Tape one to your collar bone with white surgical tape and you hear it in your ears.

  • @bmmisbah2154
    @bmmisbah2154 4 года назад

    Rob it's like Neurophone By Patrick Flanagan

  • @janbeute4902
    @janbeute4902 4 года назад +1

    Think you beat Dr. Patrick Flanagan who invented the Neurophone. I think your knowledge draws us closer to Tesla

  • @lopsumtathro
    @lopsumtathro 4 года назад

    make a tiny coil and selotape or super glue it to a tiny neo magnet , it will do the same job and take up less space for a few pence!!!!

  • @alanmichel613
    @alanmichel613 4 года назад +1

    Drone motor? Those are pager vibrator motors. Now that the market for pagers has gone the way of buggy whips, those vibrator motors are still mass produced by the hundreds of millions, and it isn’t for drones! ;-) No, drones and toys are just a small part of the overall market demand for those “Vibrator” motors! ;-)

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      for sure mate - but you have to think where most people will think where to get them

  • @mechanical1955
    @mechanical1955 4 года назад

    Hey rob what about trying a micro piezo sound transducer , Just glue it to your teeth HA !!
    dont know what the dental bills would be but again nothing ventured
    What about sonic false teeth ?
    Chewing your food could be a side benefit

  • @tinkmarshino
    @tinkmarshino 4 года назад

    Rob your amazing.. I do not know of any one that can listen to that kind of music over and over and stay relatively sane.... Your a glutton for punishment mate.. Bone headphones.. what a concept! Should see those out in a few months now..

  • @cyberlightbeing
    @cyberlightbeing 4 года назад

    Here is another wacky idea for you to try Rob. It is Patrick Flanagan’s patent US3393279A, which describes a device to provide a means of initiating controllable responses of the neuro senses without applying pressure waves to the ears or bones. :)

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      it is certainly a wacky idea mate - I will have a look at it lol

  • @darren124
    @darren124 4 года назад

    Could this be used for deaf or hard of hearing people?

  • @DoNotPushHere
    @DoNotPushHere 4 года назад

    Does it need similar current to a standart earphone? It's an awesome idea! You could even attach a steel wire frame to keep it in contact with the bone

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      I think it needs more mate- I had to put it through the amp - but that's probably got more to do with the motor

    • @DoNotPushHere
      @DoNotPushHere 4 года назад

      @@ThinkingandTinkering yup... I was going to ask about volume perception. Probably a smaller motor would do and draw similar current.
      Any ideas on a throat microphone? I find it so interesting that pilots were able to use them and effectively filter aircraft noise as early as WWII. I tought of a piezo speaker, cello-taped to the throat, but so far no good results

  • @Livefreeman
    @Livefreeman 4 года назад

    missing instructions: where are the wires connected to? is it connected to headphone jack on computer directly or to audio amplifier? how loud is the sound conduction? does it sound as loud as a normal speaker?

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      to the amp via the input jack - same wiring as the sound bug video

  • @nickgreen5767
    @nickgreen5767 4 года назад

    this is a great idea, and I have just tried to get it to work, and can't :-( Plugged into amp and then onwards, but no feed. I have watched the soundbug video too, anyone know where I am going wrong? I was going to attach it to an old over the head headphone set, to see if that would work

    • @nickgreen5767
      @nickgreen5767 4 года назад

      I will look at breadboards to see if that works. Regarding making it wearable, , and old headphones headset, or even an alice band could be used, and attach with sugru or polymorph (later probably better, as it won't act as a dampener?)

  • @reorg
    @reorg 4 года назад

    Can you make a bone microphone ?

  • @MisterRorschach90
    @MisterRorschach90 4 года назад

    Reminds me of the music lollipops from the 90s.

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      don't know what they are mate

    • @DamnedMonkey
      @DamnedMonkey 4 года назад

      @@ThinkingandTinkering Not sure what's cheesier, the idea for a musical lollipop or the commercial they came with to sell them. :) ruclips.net/video/g3ca4tfXefk/видео.html

  • @keithking1985
    @keithking1985 4 года назад

    bloody brilliant

  • @Aloewells
    @Aloewells 4 года назад

    I always hear clearly when I use my earphones back of my ears. Will there be any ear damage if used directly or its very miniscule force.

  • @mamupelu565
    @mamupelu565 4 года назад

    I'm kinda of a dummy about electronics, so you connect straight into the pc or you gotta up the voltage?

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      it's connected the same way as the sound bug video I did mate - check that on out

  • @alexandrel.defaria253
    @alexandrel.defaria253 4 года назад

    Hello, Professor can you builder jammer to block low FREQUENCY WAVES. x

  • @FusionDeveloper
    @FusionDeveloper 4 года назад +1

    So you could probably pick up Drone Replacement Motors (fixed typo) online for cheap, instead of ruining a drone.

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      if doing stuff isn't your thing - go right ahead and buy one

    • @FusionDeveloper
      @FusionDeveloper 4 года назад

      @@ThinkingandTinkering oh I worded that wrong, I meant buy "replacement" drone motors for less than the cost of buying and taking a drone apart. I stocked up on diy electronic parts, I may have something I can test this with. I'll check it out today. Thanks I love this and always wanted to try it.

    • @NorthernKitty
      @NorthernKitty 4 года назад +1

      In fact, if you don't mind waiting FOREVER for shipping, AliExpress has 0615 coreless motors for about $0.80 USD each or a set of 4 for $2.92, plus a few dollars shipping. Amazon has a set of 4 for $9.99, which isn't much more and you'd get them MUCH quicker. However... I think Rob's suggestion of a cheap toy drone is a better idea. As a bonus, you'll get at least one 200mAh (roughly) lithium ion battery (usually 3), a USB charging cable, a wireless receiver and transceiver, a control board for the motors... all of which you can play around with for use in other projects. Don't think of it as "destroying"... think of it as "transformative re-purposing". 😄

    • @FusionDeveloper
      @FusionDeveloper 4 года назад

      @@NorthernKitty Right, what you said is what i meant. Although, occasionally you buy stuff from china directly and it never gets sent. It's happened to me several times.

  • @nookiebrowne61
    @nookiebrowne61 4 года назад

    What a great idea..

  • @MrTubeuser12
    @MrTubeuser12 4 года назад

    use that soundbug instead, might do a better job.

  • @infinitelyuniversal2390
    @infinitelyuniversal2390 4 года назад +1

    Lmao i did the same thing when i was 16 years old, it works amazingly when you put against your teeth it sounds like its your brain!

  • @chronobot2001
    @chronobot2001 4 года назад

    Interesting, but what is the advantage over regular earphones ?

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      dunno - check out bone headphones I am sure the marketing guys Fromm this companies have lots of things to say about them - me personally - I thought it was a fun project

    • @SteveEh
      @SteveEh 4 года назад

      you can still hear your surroundings, I guess that could be a pro and a con

    • @chronobot2001
      @chronobot2001 4 года назад

      @@SteveEh : Good point. I didn't think of that.
      It is an interesting idea.

  • @jamesdim
    @jamesdim 4 года назад +1

    Bonehead Earphones Ltd! Hahaha! Great idea!

  • @ShadowGPSDFX
    @ShadowGPSDFX 4 года назад

    Thanks!!!

  • @tonex4963
    @tonex4963 4 года назад

    Does the motor turn?

  • @raziel3726
    @raziel3726 4 года назад

    Genius!!

  • @P3C0L4
    @P3C0L4 4 года назад

    so... i could make glasses frame play music, right?

  • @stephenclarke01
    @stephenclarke01 4 года назад +1

    Pardon ?

  • @tebbi67
    @tebbi67 4 года назад

    What!?.....you are sooo inventive....its very very cool.
    THX for your videos.

  • @RWBHere
    @RWBHere 3 года назад

    BONEHEAD PHONES. You misheard it here first! lol

  • @mickymick11
    @mickymick11 4 года назад

    nice one rob

  • @jerrywhidby.
    @jerrywhidby. 4 года назад

    Robert: Plays 2 seconds of music through glass pane.
    RUclips: Copyright strike.

  • @colouroboros9993
    @colouroboros9993 4 года назад

    awesome!

  • @reaneya
    @reaneya 4 года назад

    Headphone or earphone, what's the difference?

    • @wizardman1313
      @wizardman1313 4 года назад +1

      Headphones rest over the ears, earphones fit inside the entrance to the ears.

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад +1

      I think wizard man has it mate lol

    • @reaneya
      @reaneya 4 года назад

      @@wizardman1313 Thank you.

  • @serhatylmaz751
    @serhatylmaz751 4 года назад

    How did you connect motor to pc

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      through the audio jack mate - I just clipped the wires onto the jack pin

    • @serhatylmaz751
      @serhatylmaz751 4 года назад

      @@ThinkingandTinkering thank you i will try this :)

  • @VinoVeritas_
    @VinoVeritas_ 4 года назад

    Could I use this on my pet jellyfish?

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      only if you are feeling mean mate lol

    • @VinoVeritas_
      @VinoVeritas_ 4 года назад

      @@ThinkingandTinkering I don't want the RSPCJF knocking at my door.

  • @technosaurus3805
    @technosaurus3805 4 года назад

    Now, what to do with all this bronze laying around the street.

  • @prototype9000
    @prototype9000 4 года назад

    Im waiting for someone to put electrical wires from a wall socket to there head because they think they will hear music

  • @wopwops0482
    @wopwops0482 4 года назад

    Apparently, at 50hz it can help with tinnitus. Anyone tried it???

    • @ThinkingandTinkering
      @ThinkingandTinkering  4 года назад

      I didn't know that

    • @sofa-lofa4241
      @sofa-lofa4241 4 года назад

      I have heard of people using a flat transducer under a pillow, connected to a de-tuned radio,
      Apparently the random/white noise can help? Not sure how effective it is though