Tim Legler Reasonably Explains Why MJ Will Always Be HIS GOAT (No Matter What LeBron Does)
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- Опубликовано: 5 май 2023
- In this clip Tim Legler talks about why Michael Jordan (The Chicago Bulls) will always be his GOAT and LeBron James (The Los Angeles Lakers) is locked in at #2.
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MJ has the highest individual peak in the sport. It’s simple as that. Lebron fell short of that peak, so he decided to be almost as good but for a longer time. So the argument for Lebron is just him being elite for a longer time.
You are 100% right and I don’t even know how anybody can disagree with you, and this comment deserves more likes 👍🏾
Let's define individual peak. From 1991 to 1998, if MJ played a full season then he was going to win the title. Like every other team was competing for 2nd. That level of dominance is insane. Then the latter 80s he was individually the best player. He was an athletic freak and his defense was second to none. LeBron was never going to win a DPOY award. MJ was a shutdown defender and best offensive player on the court for 90% of his career. Insane.
@@heartbreak25 ill go one further in 87. Strictly players in the DPY voting. He was 2nd in steals, 4th in blocks(1st by a guard) 1st in WS. 1st in WS/48. 1st in DWS. 3rd in DBPM(1st as a guard) 4th in D-rating.. and came in 8th. Probably should have won 2 DPOYs.
@@djdoc06 I literally said every year he played a FULL season he won a title during that stretch. That's not debatable.
If MJ didn’t retire his peak athleticism would have lasted much longer.
The literal only 2 things LeBron has over Michael Jordan is longevity and assists per game. Relative to his position Michael Jordan is better at literally everything else, was more accomplished, and won more in less time.
People want to make it much closer than it actually is 😂
@@takuanfuan7 No, he didn't outrebound LeBron BUT he got more points, steals AND blocks (look at the decimal places) than Lebron on a per game basis. No Jordan couldn't guard a power forward. But he absolutely could/did guard 1 -3, and do it at a higher level than Lebron can guard any of the supposed 5 positions he could guard. See Jordan's All-Defensive Team selections, and a prime Lebron attempting to guard a 30 something Jason Terry in the 2011 Finals for references.
Longevity is what Lebron has over Jordan undeniably. That is his get-out-of-jail-free card, but 4 rings after manufacturing your own teams with proven talent for much of your career doesn't close the gap. If anything that should be a disqualifier. A far better argument for Lebron would be to compare him with HIS contemporaries like Kobe or Steph, because he will always fall short chasing Jordan's ghost. They are far "closer" to him than he is to Jordan. Like Hakeem said "When people start comparing him [Lebron] with Jordan, then that’s not a fair comparison. Jordan was a far more superior player in a very tough league, and he was very creative."
Also lebron has the most turnovers in history so him being a great passer is a hyperbole
Ironic thing is his last defensive play with the Bulls was a steal off Karl Malone, a power forward. It lead to the final shot to win his 6th ring.
@@justusreigns8391 Jordan was a ball hog and he shot more often. His field percentage was worse than Bron
@@akilanvijayaratnam5891 Stop! The majority of Lebron's shots are within 5 feet which inflates his fg% numbers. Move outside 5 feet and look at their numbers. Look at free throw percentages! Do your research.
If only jj and Tim had their own analysis show on espn
Hope they stay away from ESPN
@@menglongzzz also not wrong
Legs be on ESPN preaching when ya be sleep
Am I the only one that likes Stephen A less and less as time goes on? Seems like the dude knows nothing about basketball. I could listen to these guys talk all day
Don’t need it
If Jordan had 0 championships, I would still take him as the goat. There is no player ever that played basketball as perfectly above and below the rim as he has offense and defense
💯jordan literally had no weaknesses while lebron has several
I agree! Many young are uneducated and naive to MJ’s greatness!
Agreed. He wouldn't be the greatest because of his resume but he would be the best player that ever played the game because that's what he is. All the per game stats prove this
LeBron was a linchpin of an NBA franchise at what, 19 years old. He is on track to break a number of all-time records and has 3-4 chips...very strong resume for GOAT, in my opinion.
@Dre😏 How about the way he treated his teammates? Does that count for anything or is winning all that matters?
So ridiculous how people discredit the KD warriors but conveniently ignore Lebron's Heat super teams
Agreed. Lebron started the super team era. The 08 Celtics were formed by trade, the Heat were formed by conspiracy and free agency lol.
Don't Worry my Friend im With you. The Sad Part is in game 7 in 2008 Bron could've ended the Celtics Ben Wallace Held KG to 14 Pts 9 rebs if he scores 50 that Game he takes them down. And Would have possibly solidified his place.
@Ta-Kuan Fuan THANK YOU.
They are very different, the warriors were a 73-9 team that had been to back to back finals and just added the 2nd best player in the league. If Lebron had joined that warriors team instead, his rings would have the biggest asterisk of all time.
Lebron always stacks his teams, forces them even to destroy their futures for HIM. The warriors build their teams and besides, they WON after your durant left
Sustained greatness is not the same as dominance, and the GOAT conversation is about dominance. 6 finals appearances, 6 rings, 2 3-peats, and no game 7s in any finals appearance. That's dominance, and that's why MJ's the GOAT.
Andrew
Without Pippen?
@Larry Terry, why are you trying to throw Pippen around like he was the one carrying the Bulls to those championships? Pippen's status has been elevated because he won with Jordan. What did Pippen do when he didn't have Jordan? What did he win? They didn't even get to the ECF and lost to the knicks who went to the finals. Pippen couldn't carry Jordan's jock strap. Yet everyone wants to make it seem like he got to Chicago and carried the franchise. The reality is that Jordan pulled the train and Pippen shoveled the snow off of the tracks.
@@CreativeBigL Jordan himself said Pippern should be mentioned whenever Jordan is mentioned, so no, not without Pippen. It is a team sport after all!
@@johnbuchholtz8852
The conference finals 😂
And without poo Pippen 1-9 first round 😭
@@CreativeBigL they ain’t even get to the conference finals lol they faced an injured Cavs team in the first round anyway.
Plus Jordan had to go up against a Celtics team stacked with 5 HOF the years he was losing in the first round. Foh
3 pts in the 4th quarter of the Western Conference Finals facing elimination. Including 2 bricks in the final 30 seconds to win the game. His playoffs performances or lack thereof SPEAK VOLUMES. HE’S NOT THAT GUY! Jordan is still the 🐐💯
Michael Jordan will not be surpassed. That choke job in 2011 is a huge blemish when you're trying to determine who the GOAT is and Michael never had a performance like that in any big moment.
He did get knocked off in the playoffs many times.
@@handled99 he didn't choke. Always delivered. 2007 Cavs win that finals vs Spurs if they had Paul George. 2011 Heat win that finals vs Mavs if they even had Gordon Heyward.
@@erikpuka2627 agreed, too many stacked teams lebron had and still lose, most of it from his missed shots and bad turnovers. They always bring up playoffs but what is the end game? CHAMPIONSHIPS.
People forget that lebron's first finals performance is mediocre for a top 3 superstar. Here are his stats in 2007 finals
22.0 ppg
7 rpg
6.8 apg
36% FG
20% 3pt FG
69% FT
6 TOpg
After watching this Lebron do that just dropped… it’s hard to argue against Lebron being the true goat.
ruclips.net/video/aeKHrZ53wb8/видео.html
JJ and others always trying to give LeBron excuses for finals losses by saying “without context.” They want to point to the losses to Golden state when his team was hurt or KD added. But stay silent on his two losses with the Heat. Those losses are why he won’t catch MJ. He loss to Dirk and an old Tim Duncan.
Old tim duncan ? Bro he was just 30 and in his prime, plus they had prime manu ginobili and prime Tony Parker. You can't blame Young LeBron, he was facing a dangerous team with one of the greatest coach Gregg Popovich.
Edit:I checked sorry I forgot he was 34-36 years old when he played against LeBron, its been so long I forgot
@@josephisrael507 pretty sure he's talking about LBJ's last year with the Heat... seeing as you're an LBJ fan I understand you have no brain though.
@@josephisrael507 No way. Duncan was 37 years old man! C'mon
@@josephisrael507 duncan was near retirement when he faced the spurs with the heatles
@@josephisrael507
Duncan was 37 and ginobili 36. You're a clown.
In the championship discussion, it was LeBron James himself that sullied the conversation. A direct quote: “All I know is I won the two most difficult championships.” Nobody ever talked about “degree of difficulty” when winning. Only him. Unprompted. Unprovoked. In an “interview” with Maverick Carter, he decided to introduce that concept…like he has with so many other topics, from “the decision” to wearing a soft cast to a post game press conference after being beaten, to (fake) pondering retirement.
lebron had a superteam himself, GSW was a great regular season team in 2016 but soft on defense, they almost lost to OKC in the WCF. lebron is all about hyping up something that is nothing, he wants to be talked about, he has a lot of trollers posting stats that means nothing to justify being goat. At the end of the day, he is a jumpshiper.
even if he wants to talk "degree of difficulty" then its ok bcuz it shows how much greater Mike was, no game sevens bcuz he was the degree of difficulty lol
@@Sugarhilljah This - I have to laugh at Reddick putting asterixes on all of James's losses, and then saying you can't put asterixes on Wins, while telling on himself by listing a bunch of teams "no one was beating" - there's a reason no one ever said that about the Bulls' finals opponents.
@@lttfan9185reddick is being an idiot really. 07 the Cavs didn’t play a single team with a winning record before the pistons in the ecf. That team was not “so good”. They didn’t have a single 20+ ppg scorer and didn’t have Ben Wallace. Mavs took the 2014 spurs to 7 games. Houston almost beat the KD warriors in 7. All those teams are beatable. Lebron just couldn’t do it.
Lebron must be so traumatised by his choke job against Dallas, that his mind has completely blocked out the fact that dirk had a much harder path to his ring than any of lebron championships, being the only all star on his team and beating kobes lakers and lebrons stacked miami team with 2× mvp lechoke, finals mvp wade and all star bosh. The whole argument about lebron gets a pass for trading/building superteams to win is ok because everyone else needed help to win is so over exaggerated when dirk managed to do it. and they also forget about hakeem winning with no other all stars. and then they have the gaul to suggest that lebrons losses are still accomplishments. An L is an L. No one wants to go to the finals and lose. The cope around lebron is literally insane. Most overrated player in nba history by a mile
Michael was at another level. People are only able to have this goat conversation because Michael retired twice, I'm sure because he was the top dog, incredibly lonely at the top, and way too famous. all that fame must have worn him out. imagine if he played for 18 or 20 seasons. we would not be having this conversation. and that,s the biggest reason why i think there is no competition. Michael was at another level.
Am I the only one who sees the consistency of Bron reaching the finals as a positive even if he lost in the end? I find it so dumb how getting there and losing is worse than losing in the first round. Especially considering some of the teams he faced against. Jordan is the goat, but the argument that he lost some finals doesn't make sense to me
That's because media like Skip Bayless brainwashed the general public and influenced other media outlets to act like winning championships is the only way to judge greatness and anything else doesn't matter..
100% agree. 4-6 is way more impressive than 4-0 but people use the losses against him. That’s 10 freaking conference titles!
Getting to the finals 10 times is very impressive, 8 in a row, basically dominated the entire decade in your own conference. The problem with that is using that as an argument to make his case for being the GOAT against Michael Jordan. I believe Jerry West went to the finals 9 times as well, Magic Johnson too, went to 9 finals in 11 seasons. It's an impressive achievement, but doesn't do much in a discussion about the GOAT.
@@jav.3.air_ exactly 🙌 and he also won 10 out of 11 times in the conference finals which is insane to do agains the best team in your conference
@@jav.3.air_ more impressive than 4-0 but not than 6-0 and peoples mostly gon knocked his lost against against dallas
I’ll always say this; I think the best sales job LeBron and his team has done is convince most people that he’s worthy of being #2 on the list. I’m still waiting to understand how you can definitively rank him higher than Bird, KAJ, Magic and Bill Russell when all of them accomplished, for the most part, what LeBron did in less time with greater effectiveness.
This.
Fax. And tbf Kobe won their 1v1 battles. IJS 💁♂️
Yep. Been saying the same thing since he broke Kareem’s record. Less chips and mvps but somehow leapfrogged KAJ because of more points 🤔
not even better than Kobe
MJ
Bird
Kobe
KAJ
Magic
Russel
Tim Duncan
Shac
Wilt
James
Pulling a bad team to the Finals and losing isn’t a good argument, just means the Eastern conference was a joke.
It’s participation trophy stuff. I don’t hear people bragging about the Buffalo Bills losing 4 straight Super Bowls.
Since Jordan left. The eastern conference has been 8-15. 8-16 when denver wins. 04 pistons (all time defense) 06 heat (shaq n wade) 08 celtics (big 3 n rondo) 12 heat (bron wade Bosh) 13 heat (repeat) 16 cavs (bron irving love) '19 raptors (kawhi) '21 bucks (giannis). Of the 8 champions here only pistons raptors and bucks weren't flat out favored to win when the season started, they were contenders nowhere near favorites in the year they won like cavs heat and celtics were by vegas and by league wide. Hell even the warriors 1st ring they weren't the favorite it was still thunder and spurs even grizzlies given better odds. Once they won they were obvious fav from then on out
Could mj do it?
I believe he didn't beat a team with winning record that run
If we accept that logic then we have to say that the teams Jordan faced were a joke
Getting swept twice and losing 1-4 twice in the finals and averaging only 2pts in 4th quarter in 6 games in 2011 finals badly hurt LJ's claim of being a goat.
What a raging, dominant bull.
His flopping also hurts his goat claim. He should teach this young kids masterclass flopping. lol
Completely invalidated Lebron's claims of being in the GOAT conversation.
Also his overall attitude. I think he knows he's not the best but tells himself and everyone else otherwise. It comes off as insecure; as if he knows it may not be true.
This is the one. It’s HOW you play the game!!💯
A peak and per game stats just hits different for most people. It's concise, it's how the game is played (nightly not over 20 years) and it keeps your fanbase engaged (especially if it was all on 1 team, your drafted team at that). MJ's career plays perfectly into that. It even has a comeback story.
I agree wit everything but the one team part...I give Bron credit for not letin old rich white men control his destiny...even mike havin to retire 1st time wus cus of owner and g.m he hated krause...dats a good thing Dat Bron didn't jus stay there and let Gilbert dictate his career...havin sed all that mike is the goat Lol
@@michaelshelton7196 Yeah I don't fault LeBron at all, but he should've stayed in Miami imo. Even though they weren't the same he could've stuck around while they rebuilt the team again, and they definitely would have with Pat running the show. I do still like that he has rings as the go to guy on 3 different franchises. That's really cool. But he was destined for failure if he stayed in Cleveland. I'm glad he left. I wanted Bron to win multiple rings
🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻🎻
@@peacemaker4829 From what I recall, Bron butted heads with Riley quite a bit. I don't think he bought into a different offense than him being the engine and that caused the animosity.
@@kkbaby30 If that's true then oh well. They had a good thing there. Would've been cool to see him stay loyal to south beach
I like how guys like Tim who grew up with a player they admire in a different generation admit a player from the current generation passes them up and doesn’t let nostalgia get to them.
It's a rare thing.
I appreciate that as well. Until it comes to his opinion about Jordan & LeBron. Seems to hold onto it for Jordan. LeBron is clearly the better player.
@@DannyJuke - Lebron is not the better player, not even close. Lebron is statistically terrible as soon as hes more than 3 ft away from the basket
That's what makes his take even more compelling, imo
@@nydibs ?? Look at the stats and retype that one bud
There is one singular game in LeBron's career that I realized he would never surpass MJ, and it's one that few people remember.
It was in 2009, 2 days before Kobe had broken the MSG scoring record with 61 points. LeBron came in, and it was clear that he was aiming for the record as well. He didn't make it, but rather he scored 52 points and had a triple double. The following day, pundits had all these arguments about who had the better game, and it was at this moment I realized why LeBron could never surpass MJ.
See, the reason why MJ is revered as the Number 1 player in NBA history, is because everyone believed from fans, his teammates, to his opponents, that given enough motivation, there wasn't ANYTHING MJ couldn't do. Had it been MJ who wanted to break Kobe's record of 61 points against the Knicks, he would've done it, and neither the coach or his teammates would've prevented him from doing so, hell, they would've encouraged him to do. But Bron couldn't.
Well said
Correct, because LBJ doesn't have basketball skills to score. He's always been bigger and faster than most his size. And he just use picks to create space, so he can get a head of steam 95% right side and it's no stopping 6'9 245 especially with less contact being allowed by the defender. Just like Karl Malone, they both ran the floor well, scored off pick and rolls, and had streaky inconsistent shooting ability. Why they both shot between 67% and 71% for career free throw shooting. The easiest shot in basketball.
Actually they took away the TD I think by 1 rebkund
@@ocityentertainmentlive5185 except Malone also developed a great midrange shot. He was consistently knocking down those little elbow jumpers which made him even deadlier in the Pick & Roll.
But from an offensive standpoint, Malone just didn't take enough shots consistently to big points. Interesting enough, they both have the same Career high which says something considering that Malone played in an era that played at a much slower pace & fewer possessions.
@@damienharrison9581 yeah, they gave the rebound to Ben Wallace 💀😭😭
the difference bird magic jordan steph and several others were drafted to their teams. lebron went running and hand picked teammates
You’re basically choosing between peak and longevity
So basically everybody is admitting the best player they ever saw was mj. Lebron was worse but played longer so somehow he’s better.
@@kleatise52 no Kenton had a much higher peak.
@@kleatise52lebron is better in more categories and tbh would have 6 rings if kd doesn’t go to the warriors so LEBRONS peak is jus as high his scoring isn’t as good n his record isn’t flawless
@@kleatise52 kinda yeah
@@saulw6270you cant say with certainty that he would win in 2017/2018 in that case. There are "what ifs" for every playoff season
Kobe's entire career people debated if he had passed Jordan as the goat. Now that Kobe's gone he's never in the discussion. Lebron is constantly debated as to whether or not he's passed Jordan. I promise the same thing will happen with Lebron when he's done. People will look to the next best player in the NBA and debate whether that player has passed Jordan. Jordan is the 🐐 period. Where are all those people that said in Kobe's hay day that he passed Jordan as the 🐐? Now if u look up top players of all time lists, most of them don't even have Kobe top 5 and some don't even have him top 10. The goat debate isn't really a debate at all. But it will be debated bcuz it gets RUclips clicks, magazine buys and ratings for ESPN. Don't let the fact that it IS debated fool you into thinking it is a debate. The actual good debate to be had is who's number 2 all time after Jordan.
I agree 💯
Jordan set such a high standard it's hard to imagine a player that could surpass him and what that players game would look like. They would have to be damn near perfect on both ends of the court, break multiple records, absolutely dominate the nba winning an insane amount of rings and somehow have more mvps, finals mvps, scoring titles ect. If by some miracle a player comes along that can surpass jordan they will leave such little room for improvement that that player will be the goat for all time unless the rules of the nba change drastically in the future
JJ says no team in history is beating the kd warriors, does everybody forget that the rockets were owning them and up 3-2? And the only way they survived was CP3 getting hurt and missing game 6 and 7? But no team in history would have a chance against them?
The funny thing is that rockets team was basically beating golden state at what golden state did best.
So even if they did beat them it would only prove a better three point shooting team could beat them.
JJ say a lot of stupid shiiii
And he's disrespectful.
It's crazy he called the bull 2nd best team to warriors is crazy. Jj is stupid
@@Christopher._M Nobody is though. And the Rockets team shot themselves in the foot by thinking they could put together a team of all 3-point shooters and match against the greatest Shooters of all time. It's laughable.
If its truly unbias why does he gloss over 2011. Contextualize that one too
I noticed that too
A lot of old heads are like this, me included. MJ's game was fun to watch. His ability to be clutch again and again in that nineties run, the way he diminished other players when he decided to do that, the fact that he was a defensive legend alongside his offensive capability, the pure fundamentals and always doing the right thing, and the pure grace and athleticism, I mean, he's the goat for this. The numbers are more team and period influenced. Bron will never go down as a defensive god. He had some nice blocks, a few steals, but he wasn't keeping the opposing team's best on lockdown, ugh, ever. Bron is up there with the big names, but Jordan is goat. Right now if it's a choice between watching MJ or LBJ in their primes, I want that bulls arena crowd ringing on my speakers.
That is a false narrative about Lebron's defense - recent years have blurred how dominant he was in his prime. The things he did in the playoffs to opposing offenses between 2012-2016 is the stuff of Legends. At 6-9, he completely invalidated MVP Derrick Rose despite the 7 inch difference. His effort gave KD all kinds of fits when he was in Miami.
On top of that, we all talk about MJ's exceptional 1v1 defense against Guards and some forwards (especially at 6'5 3/4) but the best and most valuable all around defender was Pippen. He guarded 1-4 at an all time level and was momumental with his help defense - even on centers.
Locked in elite forwards will always contribute more than an equally gifted Guard just because of the space and positions they can cover.
In one possession, prime Lebron could force a ball pickup and pass with just his IQ and strength, rotate over and help on the second best with his speed, then sprint over and contest the big getting the dump off with pure athleticism. That's locked-in Giannis level of play and something a guard simply can't do consistently.
Even now at 38 with a bad foot, Lebron has moments where it looks almost impossible to get anything other than a deep pullup jumper.
So we just gonna act like Scottie Pippen didn't exist now ???
@@Wyndamn People bring up Scottie like he was scoring like MJ. In the year that MJ was not there the team was in the semi finals. They lost because they got out played. Plus Scottie went on to play for the rockets and the blazers. Also, when Bron won in 2016 he had Kyrie Irving. When he won in miami he had Dwade. If MJ played without Scottie he would have won regardless. MJ was averaging 40 and 50 pts WITH Scottie. There is no denying that MJ can and would have won without Scottie just like he won without Rodman. MJ was the best player and multiple players admitted it. Look up MJ game against the celtics where Bird said MJ was god on the court.
@@jDiddyi You are focusing on a game or two. The career stats show Bron low on the all time defensive rating list, considering how gifted of a player he is. Jordan was in the middle of the pack for shooting guards (within the top 20), and Pippen was towards the top just below Bird for small forwards (once again, Bron didn't rank in the top 20). For reference, Leonard was middle of the pack (top 20) for smalls and I consider him a great defender. The top small was Havlicek, and the 2nd top shooting guard was Ginobli.
Something I think important is that the career stats suggest that a fan could go to any random game and see solid D (something I love to watch, even more than offense at times) from the top ranked defenders. The bulls were a defensive powerhouse with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman all ranking well for their positions.
I suspect that there is skew towards the older period of play as the game was then mostly in the paint and, thus easier for defensive plays to be made. That should be mentioned for sure.
But don't pretend like Bron didn't take possessions off often (even on offense) as a prime player. He could often be seen "chillin," despite an action being on his side of the court (I'm not suggesting nearly as bad as Harden, lol). He really only turns on in playoffs, which means for me, I would only want to watch his playoff games. Kawhi can be seen doing the same now that he's older, but he hustled in his prime. I love solid defense. It's one of the reasons I watch the game. Gary Payton is one of my favorite players right, alongside AD b/c they are beasts at their spots. I can get down with Marcus Smart too for that hustle mentality.
I think Tim needs to get Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe and all the other 'LeBron is the GOAT' dudes in a room and educate them on why Jordan will always be the GOAT
You don’t get to join those stacked heat teams, lose twice, and still be the goat.
It really is crazy to think about how much athletes, and people in general, influence others and have drastic affects on people they’ll never even know existed
I think Larry Bird knows who Legler is now, but yeah I get your point, at the time, he had know idea how just by playing the game on TV he was influencing so many people's major life decisions
It’s called life buddy we have a spirit on this earth and it spreads & effects people
Lebon had his chance earlier in his career to make a serious argument for GOAT status. Being GOAT is much more than statistical numbers. It's possessing leadership qualities. Is possessing tenacity in the middle of constant adversity. LeBron is infamous for running away from adversity. He left Cleveland twice. He is always trying to find the easy path to the Finals joining stacked teams. He is a horrible teammate. He only competes for himself.
In general, for one thousand reasons the comparison is very difficult to be done. But Jordan is the icon of this sport. Win 3 championships, leave Basketball to play some Baseball and come back to win three other championships is unreal. With all the respect for LeBron but I think that MJ owns the crown than 2 or 3 places empty, and then LeBron (which also in my opinion has to be discussed). Don't let the media and the TV minutes some players take to change your ideas!
Imo, i have settled that there is goats of each generation not all time. The rules have changed so much in a lot of eras. In mjs era, it was all iso and individual defense. You cant do that now since teams will play zone, double team ande deny ball. In the 90s you have to fully commit to a double team and that changes how an offensive player plays. Now you can put 3-4 guys when someone wants a ball or drives, cant do that in the 90s
That was a cheap dump attempt disregard lebron and show you bias admiration for Jordan lol
It’s definitely clear that lebron is the goat ?only low I.Q Americans can blindly believe otherwise just because they can’t let go at their idol they grew up with…that’s why in the world’s sports game (Football ) American analysts don’t count for nothing lol because they don’t know what their talking to
@@Lazyfoal LeSwept 😂😂
@@pajepistv7361 still has nothing to do with what I said
@@Lazyfoal guess you never viewed the Bad Boys of Detroit. They gang tackled MJ. He still managed to score.
I think Jordan is also considered the goat because he was really the first player that came along where other people referred to him as that. He's never called himself that lol
No it's because he's done more in less time and he was better statistically in every way besides assist compared to other people playing his position.
Thanks for posting.
If there's no astrix next to winning a championship (which I agree with), then there isn't one for losing in the finals.
I’ve seen jordan play in 1996 in person , I’ve seen Kobe play in 2009 , I’ve seen lebron play in person two years ago in person and I’ve got to tell you Michael jordan in person was electric ⚡️ and something else.. there’s nothing like it .. there’s no comparison. Kobe and lebron are great and the games were fun .. but jordan play was a competitive and mind boggling how unreal he looks in person ..
We never hear anyone say Jimmy Butler dragged his team kicking and screaming to the finals?
Seriously, or why isnt Spo widely considered one of the greatest coaches ever?
@@nydibs Because that would mean LeBron actually did have an all time coach. And he did, Spo is awesome.
MJ had only a total of 13 seasons! Vs Lebron who’s in his 20th season !
Jordan accomplished a lot more in just 13 seasons! Whether in rings, MVPs, stats and in legacy.. Lebron can get his “most durable” awards lol
It’s MJ all day! Stop the comparisons.. Lebron is a great player. But we all must know who’s the GOAT 🐐 thy name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan
The fact that Jordan was the best offensive player and best defensive play on the court for the majority of his career. Almost every game he played .. says more then anything name another play that can say that
JJ Redick said people will bring up LeBron losses without context. That's actually incorrect. In the losses he did not get it done. Regardless of the circumstances. If we forget everything else LeBron went 2-4 with a Miami Heat all-star team in the NBA Finals. A player of his greatness with a team like that should have went 4 - 0.
2-2 my man.
To me, they're incomparable. Different positions, different playstyles and approaches to the game, different league, different rules, different paths to the NBA, and so on. They're each the best of their generation, and one isn't greater than the other.
This is the problem with the all-time greats discussion, it implies that the league hasn't changed, which it has greatly, which makes comparisons over generations kinda pointless
Facts, if we’re not accounting for generations, then bill russell or wilt are the goats
This is a great reasoned take on the GOAT argument. If I had to pick my list would be 1A. MJ and 1B. LeBron James. However LBJ is still playing and while really unlikely getting another championship would really make me reconsider this. And this is from an MJ fanatic who shaped my childhood
Ok. By that criteria, bill Russell (dominated rings) or Wilt Chamberlain (dominated records) are the goats
Yep. Shpuld be seperate GOAT list for Guards, Forwards, and Centers.
On top of that, Bill and Wilt are so out of this world that they should NEVER even be subjected to any ranking besides #0
Funny how JJ just glossed over Dallas 😂😂. But hes the one bringing up context. I guess context only works when its convenient. 😂😂😂
ive always said and believed that 4-0 is better than 4-6 in the finals, because that means you won more in the process instead of losing before the finals
Yet Jordan is never penalized for missing the playoffs or getting bounced before the finals.
6-0
@@26michaeluk Yes he is, all the time. People always talk about how Jordan was bounced in the first round his first couple years (against superteams might I add), yet ignore the fact that LeBron wasn't even making the playoffs at all his first couple years. Or they talk about how Jordan missed the playoffs when he returned as an injured 39-40 year old joining an 18 win Wizards team, yet ignore the fact that a 37 year old LeBron tried to put together a superteam with Anthony Davis and Russell Westbrook and STILL missed the playoffs (and even the play ins).
@@libfit9068 regardless I call them both GOATS.
Even when MJ was with the wizards he was in the MVP conversation
I think that when JJ said that everyone needed help and had this person and that person that made me move Bron further down the ladder. How does he leap frog others that had help when he had tons of help too. The only person that didn't need much help was Jordan.
The LeBron fanatics like to say he did it with scrubs.
Good conversation
Man I really could listen to you and legler talk hoops all day tim knows hoops
It’s simple. MJ was the best player in the entire league for over a decade. He dominated everyone and has the stats and rings to prove it. People try to diminish that by saying his competitors were “weak” but it’s a bs argument. If Bron had “10” scoring titles he’d probably have more rings. Instead he chose to be great at everything and make the “best play”. As unstoppable as Bron is with his frame he should have been averaging atleast 35 in the finals
Lebron chose to be good at everything, he’s not the best at anything in particular
@@nydibs nah I’d give him the best passer/iq crown but bro should have been averaging atleast 35 when no one in nba history can guard him
@@moresunsetsplease3578 He's certainly not the best shooter. That goes to Curry. Dr. J is my favorite player, followed closely by MJ and Larry Bird, but he's not my #1 in terms of GOAT levels. That is MJ, then Kobe, Lebron, Bird, and THEN in at 5 is Kareem. I may have Curry top 5 someday, when he's done, but I also think that along with him, I'd be putting Giannis in top 10 GOAT list someday.
Good take
What’s the brand of JJ and Tim’ hoodies. They look pretty nit.
You forgot that Bird had to do it with 4 Hall Of Famers at the most (Robert Parrish, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Bill Walton) when they won their 1986 Championships, and at the least 3 Hall Of Famers when Celtics won their 1981 & 1984 championships. Bird essential had a Hall Of Fame supporting cast during their championship run. That's a LOT of help.
Yep boston was always stacked with hall of famers. Also they drafted they're guys like golden state outside of the 2 KD years
What's crazy about that is that three of those guys you named aren't given their due. Not many people argue for Chief being a HoF player and DJ got in after he died. Bill Walton no one argues that he was a HoF talent BUT he was injured for so many years that knowledgeable people have argued that he's not an all time great center (he was fantastic off the bench in 86 and perfect for Bird). Bird had great teammates, McHale was incredible also but many of those HoF players were on the tail end of their careers while others hadn't come close to their potential yet. Parish was given away for pennies the Warriors thought he was no good. Bird made his teammates better. They went from 28 wins or whatever it was to 60 and he was a rookie.
Lmao LeBron has 2 HOF and Kyrie and K Love, Dwight and AD will all be HOF. let's not pretend he didn't have help
@@ds15dAll stars and hall fame LeBron teammates vs Jordan and Bird. Team LeBron. Kyrie Irving 8x, Dwayne Wade 13x Kevin Love 5x , Anthony Davis 8x, Chris Bosh 11x, Dwight Howard 8x, Derrick Rose 3x, Ray Allen 10x Isiah Thomas 2x, Russell Westbrook 9x, Carmelo Anthony 10x , Mo Williams 1x, Illgauskas 2x.. Team Bird. Kevin McHale 7x Robert Parish 9x Dennis Johnson 5x Bill Walton 2x Reggie Lewis 1x. Team Jordan.. Scottie Pippen 7x Dennis Rodman 2x.. We'll add Horace Grant/BJ Armstrong in 94 (Jordanless year) for extra name sake and Robert Parish in his 40s being last man on bench. Top 75 players all time played with LeBron 5 Bird 3 Jordan 2
Tim knows ball
His reasoning for why he thinks mj is the goat is the only valid reason. Not because of the rings but because of the individual player. I personally don’t think mj is better at basketball but respect his argument not the 6 rings
@@tannermonette8098 you're hilarious.
@@tannermonette8098 you dont think MJ has better basketball skills than Lebron?
@@alexxallert412 He doesn’t
@@alexxallert412 not trying to say that, I don’t think he’s better tho. There are plenty of players who have better skills but aren’t better at putting that ball in the hoop then Lebron and creating for his teammates
The 2 NBA Final losses I put on Lebron were the Dallas Mavericks, and Spus (Who ended LBJ's Miami Heat tenure). *HOWEVER, when comparing LeBron to MJ, those finals losses are a factor.
2 rings, 1 MVP, 2 finals MVP's, 1 DPOY, 4 first defensive teams, 9 scoring titles, 3 steals titles...and more is the gap between MJ and Lebron currently. That is a whole seperate HOF career worth of accolades. So Tim is right, there is NOTHING Lebron can do to pass Mike, and it's not just because of bias or nostaligia either, though there is plenty of that.
If longevity stats (all time totals) didn't move the needle for Kareem, it shouldn't move the needle for Bron either.
Theres one little thing that lebron has over Jordan, and thats the ALL TIME SCORING, dont know why u didnt mention that but ok. And the Kareem point is not valid because Kareem final years is not comparable to what LBJ is doing right now. If Kareem was considered a top 6 player in the league in his final seasons you would have a point, Lebron is still playing at the highest level in his final seasons, thats why its NOT the same
People can drop the DPOY thing…. It’s a media award and Lebron earned it the year they gave it to Gasol
@@igorcosta832 I mentioned Kareem and all time totals specifically for that reason. He held the ALL TIME SCORING title for most of MJ's career, had 6 rings, even more MVP's and that wasn't enough to keep Mike from surpassing him, so how does it close the gap for Lebron? It doesn't.
@@21gramsofdope because its NOT all about accolades in my humble opnion. But hey, its all good, this discussion is pointless anyway, i got LBJ u got MJ, thats never going to change
@@igorcosta832 It's not all about accolades of course. But once you start comparing top tier, all time talents, you have to show where the seperation is. Accolades are one way, a substantial one to show where that seperation lies.
That's what Tim was getting at when talking about Bird. Bird is actually underrated in my opinion and I had him over Lebron for a good while, but he has since created seperation. Doesn't mean Bird wasn't amazing and wouldn't wreck havoc on today's league.
Tim is correct. LeBron is so great, but he will never be the greatest.
that makes no sense😭
Ikr 🐐 MJ23 black Jesus 👻
@BuzzinWock I'm 28 and go MJ 11/10 times. More achieved and more accolades in 7 less years of being in the League.
@@DemonBuzzinwockno it’s not dummy lol the people who would have an unbiased opinion are the people who watched both. You can’t have a grasp on anything in life with only 50% of the available knowledge. I understand that’s frustrating to hear but unless you want to go back and watch 90s basketball your opinion is irrelevant to most peoples eyes. If you haven’t watched MJ play extensively just shut up frfr 😂 Lebrons fans are the only fanbase who thinks it’s ok to not watch basketball and yet disrespect all time greats.
@BuzzinWock current players…. Young AND old, picked MJ lol
Just once I want somebody to be honest about the Lebron championships conversation. The reason people nitpick his rings is because the some in the media anointed him the goat and then Lebron anointed himself as the goat.
Those of us who know that’s not true had to say “hold up.” Now, JJ and the like always say “why is Lebron the only one who faces scrutiny for his rings…” idk dude, maybe you shouldn’t call him something he’s not 🤷♂️
Got to admire lebron,s consistency and longevity but mj is just special, Mj has done more in less seasons,mj better scorer and better defensive player
If I remember correctly if Bron was on the Heat going against the spurs he dosent get a pass. His team was also stacked. Two juggernauts going head to head, they just lost. He doesn’t get a pass for that.
Yeah what Tim forgets is that MJ was on the 90s Bulls and Bron is not on 2010s GSWs he played against them..
They seem to want to forget that
He was on the big 3 heat and the best he could do was 2 out of 4
@@lmnoph fact they seem to forget
@@someguy9164 they still made the playoffs without MJ
He joined Bosh and Wade what are you talking about
I also have Lebron 2nd, but I think people don’t give him enough credit for what he’s actually accomplished. Despite everything, the man has 4 FINALS MVPS. Aside from him and MJ, nobody has more than 3. Think about that. Regardless of everything else, nobody in the history of the league, managed to reach 4 Finals MVPs except for Lebron and MJ. The gap between MJ and Lebron is big, but the gap between those 2 and everyone else is a massive.
I still can't have Lebron above MJ Larry Bird Wilt and Magic Johnson despite people pushing their agenda to have him First and second. It's just me he deserves to be top 5 but I cant have him above those four.
You out of ya mind😭he was never better than kobe Steph Garnett or Duncan shaq Hakeem magic bird Durant kwahi wade
@nykaitcha Look at some of the other replies to my comment. Sure there’s some people that argue whether he’s first or second but I think there’s way too many people that put guys with 1 ring over Lebron and act like the fact that only MJ has more Finals MVPs than him, doesn’t count because Lebron teamed up with other stars. Every single player, other than Jordan, had star or superstar teammates for their runs and even the ones with Lebron’s longevity didn’t manage to get 4 Finals MVPs, so yeah I think that along with his other accomplishments, still gets overlooked as if there’s 20 other guys in the history of the league that have accomplished what Lebron has. Again I have MJ first, so it’s not like I’m biased and in favor of putting Lebron on a pedestal, I’m just saying, the accolades and both team and individual accomplishments speak for themselves and even people who have him second all time, tend to underplay what he’s done, and there’s plenty of people who don’t even have him in their top 10.
@bryrashad 💯
@bryrashad Adding to what you said, I think it matters to be able to win with the franchise you played your first game for, but some people act like it’s the end all be all. Like Bill Russell being drafted and winning 11 championships for the Celtics, somehow makes him better than Lebron, even though the Celtics at the time literally had all the talent in the league except for Wilt and Jerry West, and there was 8-12 teams in the league, with semi pros. People only remember the circumstances around Lebron’s rings.
I appreciate JJ. He played the game at its highest level. I dont want to hear people who only played H.S talk about bow the game should be played.
If you never played professionally, youre just commenting as a fan. Not an expert in the field.
would you take training for a job from someone who never did that job?
This is always a huge problem for me when media members & analysts say this. Because then it puts into even clearer focus what this debate is really based on: extreme bias. Saying there’s nothing LeBron can do when his resume is this stacked and he’s still playing at an elite level and could win a title or 2 more (and put up huge performances) is just so clearly rooted in bias and is what makes this GOAT debate so pointless to have. If ur just gonna debate from pure bias, why have the discussion?
not bias its their perspective…nothing Lebron can do is their perspective doesn’t make it bias 🤦🏽♂️
everybody got bais to they favorite player tbh
@@van2.060 Saying there’s nothing someone can do when their still playing at an elite level on a contender with a resume as stacked as LeBron’s is bias or uninformed. As improbable as it may seem, what if the Lakers go back to back? Or three-peat? Or LeBron wins another MVP? U just don’t know what can happen in the future so to say there’s NOTHING he can do is based in bias
@@van2.060 it's their perspective based on their own bias genius.
I think it’s more so how Jordan did what he did vs what he did if that makes sense. When you look at just the what each player did it’s very close and can go either way but when you look at the how jordan just seems untouchable imo
JJ, there is always a team that wins. The difference is how and what a player does to win. Meaning, the former great stars did not run around to join forces with other stars and that speaks volume to how good a player is.
@@bryrashad so are you saying LBJ would have never won if he stood in Cleveland? Also, MJ could’ve easily done what he did. MJ could’ve left and played with Charles Barkley. I’m not knocking what LBJ did either. Just saying I enjoy MJs story more. Tim Duncan’s, Steph Curry’s.
@@bryrashad Never gets old with that excuse lmao. Miami was willing to do anything to rebuild around him even after their loss to the Spurs. Went back to Cleveland, won a ring, lost the next 2 finals, then left again. Even when the Cavs FO did everything he asked for, and was willing to spend, unlike the cheapskate Lakers who doesn't want to go into luxury tax. Lebron stans are really something 😂😂
@@bryrashad thank you.
@@PeePeeMilk the thimg about LeBron that many people fail to see is that, he had and still have an agenda wanting to be the greatest. And he still keep chasing that. He will never be in my eyes.
@@bryrashad yeah man that Bulls dynasty franchise in the 80's, what a great organization. Always with the excuses.
MJ played 15 seasons, missed two and came out of college, Lebron who I do like, came from highschool played more seasons in the nba and MJ still has better accolades, what were Lebron’s accolades at 15 seasons, the longer you play your bound to break records like all time scorer
But that’s still a credit to his greatness he has been able to be this at this age no other player has done it when I see things no player has done when you break ground like that that’s different to and the highschool thing bron couldn’t help he was the best player in draft in highschool they picked him Jordan couldn’t come out of highschool he wasn’t better then the entire draft when he was a sr in hs
Yeah lebron came out of highschool because he could. MJ couldn’t. So can’t really use that argument. Jordan came into the league at 20 21. Lebron was in the finals at that age
@@devinmartinez7705 I can use the argument, leaving highschool early wasn’t a thing when MJ was in highschool that didn’t become a regular occurrence until the late 90’s, and you are speaking about two different eras , I’m comparing careers not eras, and I don’t blame Lebron for coming into a weaker league it is what it is, but if you put 15 years against Lebrons 15 years there’s no comparison and he’s been in the league 20 years and mj still out shines Lebron
@@kaetha1 for sure u can. But mj wasn’t ready the same way lebron was.
@@kaetha1 saying that league was weaker when Lebron came into the league is a lie. Look at the league athletes in 84-85 vs 03-04. You can’t reasonably say the league was weaker later. Not to mention how the league changed the rules from Kareem and wilt on up…
0:23. Sure, there’s context to those Finals losses. Bron did play against some all stars, but he had some all star teammates, too.
I think the 96 Bulls would have taken the Warriors: nobody wants to admit how great of a perimeter defensive team that team was. And that Warriors team lived and died by the three. That Bulls team would have never let them shoot 39 threes a game.
This is insane, the goat debate is bias asf
Obviously, what career is “better is completely subjective at this point. Either you like Lebrons longevity of greatness, or MJs peak greatness. Lebron was the best Player in the league for 12 years straight and was a superstar for pretty much his whole career, which is why some people have him as the goat. But imo from 1990-1998 mj was the best player to ever play and no one beat him at that time so that’s why I think he’s the goat.
Brian windhorst said he can’t argue with MJ fans because they will never listen to no other playing being greater than MJ.
MJ fans are grumpy old men. They are hate that they are getting old and things are changing. “MJ will always be the best no matter what because he’s the best player from MY generation.”
True, I was MJ is the goat believer until 2016-2018. And I really only said MJ was the goat because everyone else did. Stats, advanced metrics, records, era context, competition don’t support Jordan being the goat
@Beery Your logic is comedic, it’s just funny how losing in the first round is better than losing to stacked teams in the finals. Compare the Cavs and Warriors overall team, you can’t. The Warriors starting lineup and bench were way more stacked. Imagine leaving your team and then they win 55 games, improve their defensive rating, and were few bad calls from going to the NBA finals without you? LeBron didn’t have that luxury.
Also given the fact that MJ played in one of the weakest eras in NBA history. An expansion league in the 90s. Throughout the 80s and 90s more than 50% of the league were below .500. And if you look at Jordans finals competition, in 5 of 6 finals appearances he faced teams with less hall of famers than his own Bulls team. Often his competition in the finals had one hall of famer and no other player that made an all-nba team that season. Meanwhile LeBron has beaten the most hall of famers in the playoffs and finals alone.
@Beery You bringing up flawed stats like PER and WS without doing your research is all I need to know 💀 you don’t even know why PER is a flawed stat just like plus/minus. Let me give you some non-flawed stats.
most game tying/go-ahead shots in the clutch
most game winners
most playoff game winners
more points in the clutch
most career 4th quarter points average in NBA history
Only player in the 30k 10k 10k club.
Higher FG% than Jordan, higher 3p% than, higher TS%, and higher eFG% Jordan. More assists and rebounds as well. Takes less shots, lower usage rate, never led the league in shot attempts like Jordan did 10 times in order to win his scoring titles. While Jordan also played in an era of illegal zone defenses and a lack of guards with elite handles. And when he did encounter those guards, they torched him. AI, Jason Kidd, Rex Chapman torched MJ. Rex dropped all 39 on his head. They had to sub Jordan off to put a real defender on Jason Kidd.
@Beery The problem with PER and some of the similar metrics of its ilk is that they are based on a flawed rationale. People who use this stat often talk about how a box score is not a proper assessment of a player’s ability. The problem is when they say a metric like PER is a much better way to judge a player. All PER does is take all the counting stats you see in a box score, attribute different weights to them, and scale them with the league average. You aren’t getting that much more insight concerning a player’s skill level than you would have by just looking at the box score. Despite that, Jordan and LeBron have the same PER in the playoffs.
It always drives me crazy how people make so many excuses for LeBron's Finals' losses. Would it have been better if he didn't make the finals then? A loss is a loss, no matter what the situation is. The fact is he's won four championships and lost six times in the Finals. Jordan on the other hand struggled to get to the Finals in the late 80s but once his team's broke through they won six titles in six appearances. Those are just the facts.
awesome discussion, jj and legs are top notch. as·ter·isk i always have a problem with this one
Great discussion, I agree with Tim. MJ is #1 and LBJ is #2, locked. MJ's 13 seasons in Chicago , rookie of the year, had 2 seasons curtailed due to injury and returning from 1st retirement. The other 10 seasons - 10x scoring champ and 9x first team all defensive. No other player has ever been, so consistently, both the league's best offensive and top tier defensive player simultaneously. Even in today's league, MJ averages and PER still surpasses or on par , as a SG, even after his wizard seasons.
Lbj shouldn't be locked nr2.
Kobe, magic, Kareem, all had more success than lbj in less time. Bird's peak was better too. Wilts stats are better.
Lebron spent his whole career jumping to the best teams and piloting free agencies with clutch sports and still only won 4 in 20 years.
Not nr 2 at all.
@@robesch88 true i concede, there is an argument . Kareem had more rebounds less assists. Kobe in my opinion is more skilled ,etc With lbj there is a recency bias, at his age he is still putting up good stats.
The greatest players all of time in team sports don't call themselves that GOAT. Messi, MJ, Gretzky, Brady etc
Messi literally has a pic with a goat....
LeBron was the greatest of 4/6 times he got to the finals.. Jordan was the Greatest Of All Times he got to the big stage that is GOAT stuff right there not to mention how he always played both sides if the ball always never rested on defense, even in an era where clotheslining people in the paint was normal..
GOAT should fall under all these categories:
Winner in multiple or series of championship games.
Efficiency in scoring and Reliability to take the last shot in dying seconds
Consistency in statistics
Strong Leadership
Creativity on the court
Expectation of the crowd
Never flop
When we say "had to do it" we mean, he had to jump ship to another man's franchise. Those other greats didn't, doesn't matter if he was the best player on the team. A talent like that has to attract players to him, it's not necessarily all on management either. We have to remember players weren't trying to team up like that anyway, it was a competitive league amongst alpha stars before he pulled that stunt in 2011. Now look at the league smh
with the Nets demise, and last 3/4 championships have been non-super teams (except for the bubble ring). 4/5 - denver probably adding to that list. its safe to assume we are in post-superteam era. thank goodness.
They pointed something that I just resonated heavily and that’s putting asterisks on championships. Most asterisks are put for things that the team that won had no control over; unless a player on the team that won the title went out of their way to injure someone on the other team, why hold it against them for someone getting injured? What do you expect them to do, let the other team win ‘cause they’re not at full strength? Were the Raptors supposed to concede to the Warriors in 2019 ‘cause KD and Klay got injured? Were the Warriors supposed to concede the Cavs in 2015?
I agree -- BUT 2019 Raptors earned the win, Steph and co. just failed. KD was a cheat code who shouldn't have even been there. And Klay played 5/6 games, including a game high 30pts in the closeout Game 6 after the injury.
Matchup was fair even after KD went out.
Tommy wearing GOLF is getting overlooked, we love you tommy 🫶
Love you guys but that title is super click bait lol
And we gotta account the 9 ecf mvp awards he should have😂😂😂
You can't just gloss over the 2011 finals
@The Roster one person was playing ball and came up waaaaaayyy short. The other was retired. No were near the same.
@@dewanewelch1744 brother you can’t even spell “nowhere” your opinion is void. That’s like a 2nd grade word.
Can't gloss over first round exits 🔥
@@theroster906 can't gloss over playing 20years and not 1 3peat 🤣
It is why we drown out the outside noise
Wasn’t really an explanation it was again the ability to be unbiased
I hate comparing players, especially from different eras and periods. GOAT, for me, isn’t a single person. But a collection of talent.
Personally my GOATs right now are Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, and Steph Curry. Steph because of his impact on basketball, along with the accomplishments. I only included players I have watched.
No Kareem, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell? Lol. Im not putting Curry above them.
LeBron's biggest fail is the 2011 Finals against the Mavs. But aside from that, there was no asterisk for him. He was a beast. A W is a W, a loss is a loss. The man is a legend. MJ fan here.
Hmmm not quite for me. The asterisk on his finals for me are the 2011 against the mavs, 2018 against the warriors, and 2020 bubble against butler and the heat.
The reason for the 2018 asterisk is the fact that Lebron simply gave up in two of those critical games where they could have stomped the warriors, even if they couldn't reach them in a seven game series. After that weak J.R. Smith stunt, the game wasn't over still and ended on a tie but the energy of the team flowed in the way Lebron processed things and he already took an L before overtime even started. That's a problem in my book. Giving up like that is like allowing yourself to choke purposely because you feel no need to push on. That's dumb. You need to finish strong no matter the outcome. He then just gave up in game 4, didnt even try and then the team followed suit. Didn't even will his team to try to get one game against the warriors. Afterward, he put on a cast to tell the world he played with a "broken hand"..
As for 2020, it wasn't Lebron's fault for the way how basketball during the bubble turned out especially since they won fair and square. But rather the situation and the environment of the game. What do I mean by that? Well for starters, Lebron was showing he had control of the league.. he was trying to convince the organization that he could make decisions of staying in or out of the bubble and bring other players to decide with him. This led him to make a call that he and the Lakers could start practicing as a unit (in-person) before any other team could do theirs. Other teams would have to stay home and just fitness train. Other players and teams didn't look as sharp with the confusing and unsettling time of things, and did not keep their flow going into July. That's not saying they didn't try but some of these teams just looked really gassed. Lastly, the environment was that of a pickup game despite it being the finals. A crowd and loud environment changes the course a whole bunch of how a game can go whether better or worse for either the home/away team. It was really that of a YMCA setting and was modified to keep the energy level very even.
Sorry for the ramble but these are my takes. I believe Lebron could have done way better in two of his finals hands down for sure. The 2020 bubble chip wasn't all him but there were some things that I didn't see too good and rather gave him and the Lakers a somewhat advantage at the beginning of their reboot in July. That said, if another team won the chip instead of the Lakers, I still wouldn't have seen it as a true chip just because of everything that made the bubble happen.
@hjpm101089: put an asterik by cavalier championship the nba gave him that championship.
The difference is all those teams that he mentioned built the teams around a superstar not Superstars a superstar one person then the people that they drafted developed any good players to help them to that's a good teams championships after championship
This is an excellent take by the legman! However, I think it's possible that someone could one day pass Bron or even MJ..... the bar is really high.
YESSIR TIM
The way media/media personalities etc thinks sports pertaining to the goat convo is the biggest blame for shaping how fans look at the goat convo, rings etc. Lebron or anyone else does not have to win as many rings as Jordan tom be the goat damnit. Russell has ELEVENNNNN rings. almost twice as many as MJ. so if we all know its other things along with the goat convo then why does that notion not apply to Lebron. then ppl ignore context when it comes to Lebron as to why he lost alot of those finals. EYE TEST (which is the most important measure) Lebron is objectively the better basketball player. Lebron is just more impactful of a player. Jordan is not carrying the cavs to a finals in 2018 u swap him and lebron. Jordan is not carrying a 07 cavs level team to the finals at 21 years of age..Lebron dominated longer than Mike and he dominated better competition than MJ. 2014 spurs and any iteration of the warriors are better than any team Jordan has faced in the finals. if KD did not go to the warriors Lebron has a far better chance to win 6 rings and if he got to 6 then wtf are ppl going to say??? LEBRON....IS....BETTER
Thank you!
Lebron did such a great job on convincing everyone that hes a lock for 2. He hasnt even passed kareem, magic, bird, hakeem, or kobe.
Legs is great, always been one of the most underrated basketball media personalities out there... probably because he doesn't yell or make ridiculous takes for attention, so he's not on the big shows too often nowadays.
I've always felt it was Jordan, but the years that LeBron has played at an elite level, the ten consecutive finals. Four finals MVP's. Coming back from 3-1. It's tough
It isn't tough. Look at the enitrety of the two resumes up until this point for both players, and I bet you MJ has the edge. It's no debate. The championship wins is the cherry on the top. MJ did better both individually and team wise. Y'all can say LeBron was a better all-around player but was he really or MJ decided to not just play that way but can if he wanted to, and he briefly like LeBron early in his career...putting up similar stats.
LoL it's not even close, and if you think it is you must have not watched enough basketball
But then you also have to factor in the Dallas series. To be number 1, you have to be damn near perfect. And that’s a blemish.
@@j-us-t_be-in-g Bron is better all around. May not be the best in your eyes but as an individual in stats is better than jordan. 6 championships cool, Bill had 11. So as of the actual stats and longevity it’s always gonna be Bron
@@demitrirodriguez117 you also have to take into account the number of scoring titles and 1st team all-defense. MJ pretty much trounces Lebron in that regard. Not to mention more regular season and Finals MVPs. It really shouldn't be an argument when MJ had less time, played college ball, and retired twice. MJ also never lost more than 2 straight games in the regular season for an 8 year stretch. It really shouldn't be a debate. The debate is for the #2 spot indefinitely.
LeBron is the GOAT already. He’s just padding his stats now. Jordan is way behind him in EVERY measurable category except rings.
Wrong
Stats don’t matter all time 😭lebron is15-20 never top 5 he’s and industry plant🤙🏿
@@Dipset415 i’m sorry about your mental disability bro that must be tough. Thoughts and prayers.
Jordan playing now, 40 points every night at least
@@GiambattistaRossi LeBron playing in the 90’s and 80’s against slow white American players only, 45 per night easy.
Ppl that say he’s ALWAYS gonna be their goat, immediately get removed from the conversation. No matter what anyone does he’s gonna be their goat. Goofy
In the 2007 playoffs Lebron didn't play a team with a winning record until the Eastern conference finals in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs he beat the Wizards who were ( 41-41) the next round he beat the Nets who were; you guessed it (41-41) and then in the Conference finals he beat and old pistons team without Ben Wallace their defensive anchor
I do feel like there's a distinction between being the greatest and being the best. I think MJ is the GOAT because his career was the closest we've ever seen to the "perfect story." His career wasn't perfect, but it was probably the closest to perfect in terms of team success, individual accolades, and impact/legacy. But I do think LeBron is the best basketball player to ever exist, purely in terms of his skills and ability on the court.
Mj had better footwork handles shooting shot making ability agility in the air on ball defense and post moves😭lebron not even the most skilled player of his era
When you're talking about the best of the best, you're not talking about skill. They all have out of this world skill. What we're talking is how that player affects winning time. You close out games. Especially in the last 5 minutes. That doesn't just mean score. That means crucial defensive plays during that time. It's the only reason why people bring up that block. That's how you inch up. You have to both stop possessions and score to win in winning time to succeed. In that sense, LeBron doesn't come close to MJ
@@Dipset415 MJ did not have better shot making or post moves 😂😂😂 out here spreading blatant misinformation
MJ wasn't the most skilled of his era either... skill isn't what determines greatness
@Sam Traynor - MJ was absolutely a better shot maker, he was lethal from the mid range shooting around 50%
Lebron shoots sub 40% as soon as he is more then 3 ft away from the basket
MJ shot over 80% from ft
Lebron shoots at 73% for his career
Statistically, Lebron is one of the worst mid range shooters in the game, and his 3 ball isn’t great either
@@nydibs Jordans 3 must have sucked then since it is worse than Lebron's.
I guess the question that i love to hear is…..
Whos career you rather have?
Ill pick MJ anytime over lbj
Lebrons
Jordan also took off a season to play MLB Baseball
@@Ali-fo4uv LeBron also played in much less physical era. He's way taller and stronger and has a huge physical advantage. He came in fresh out of highschool and had technology advancement rehab resource benefits.
Jordan changed the game and the culture!The fact Lebron came in to the league trying to be like Mike means he will always be chasing him.
Whats so crazy in my opinion is that imagine if Lebron had chosen to be slightly more aggressive, and also not feel as though he had to jack up random trey balls to feel like Steph... Improved his FT over 20 years... he could have probably eclipse MJ and not had some of the melt downs... and also remove the flopping and the injury reveals after losses... race would be so much closer to alot of ppl.
even tho bron is my goat, i can understand. legz knows ball. bron and mj are two of two and there isn’t anyone cut like them.
@BuzzinWock bro tbh even in my all time rankings i have jordan over bron just cuz his career was so perfect in the eyes of the average fan, bron still TBE tho. best player to ever lace up.
I asked my wife who knows very little about basketball, “Best basketball player of all time?”
Without hesitation she said, “Michael Jordan”
Next I asked, “Second best basketball player of all time.”
A short pause, then she says, “Lebron” (one word)
She then says, “Well, you can’t be the best unless you were in a Space Jam.”
Hard to argue the logic.
Context? What’s the context of him getting embarrassed by Jason Terry?
I like how jj completely ignored how lebron played in the 2011 finals. Dwayne Wade was carrying them and lebron was choking.
Bosh was better than lebron that year too. Bron was the 6th best guy in the series, and that might be generous.