A Nuanced Discussion About The Legacies Of LeBron and Steph | Tim Legler and JJ Redick
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- In this clip, JJ Redick and Tim Legler discuss the legacies of LeBron James (The Los Angeles Lakers) and Stephen Curry (The Golden State Warriors) and where Bron and Steph fit with other greats like Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe Bryant, Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal and more NBA greats.
Subscribe to The Old Man and The Three podcast w/ JJ Redick (ESPN / First Take) and Tommy Alter RUclips channel today for more NBA analysis, player interviews and highlights.
#nba #lebronjames #stephencurry
Check out the full pod if you haven't already: ruclips.net/video/sfUXDXHW1Vs/видео.html
JJ, as a lifetime basketball fan, I truly don’t understand this seemingly unanimous take that Lebron is the 2nd greatest player of all time. He’s clearly an all-timer, but number 2? At this point, I’m not sure he is even higher than steph and steph clearly isn’t number 2 so what the hell is everyone talking about? Furthermore, it’s not even a discussion to me if Steph adds another chip this season (going through lebron once again to do it) so I need someone help me understand this 🤷🏽♂️
Bro took a sun tan💀
They just be talking he had the greatest career in NBA history cut it out 4 in 20 while rigging the game stop it
Mj won 6 in the 90s wat are we talking about
You need to do an entire podcast on what you mentioned towards the end. How Jordan moved. He does move different. He even runs different. And when Pippen went to the Bulls, you can see how he began to move in the same way
Two analysts who listen to each other, talk to each other, understand each other. I wish they had a stable, weekly corner together.
In my head it’s like one of those early 2000s meetings where JJ goes to a corner Diner and he just talks extremely important basketball news while random ppl don’t even pick it up.
Facts
Absolutely. I think it works because they have experience as former players and they're not just speaking on what they have watched. Lol.
That is what a civil conversation looks like. Not being loud and obnoxious this is how educated men talk. Most these talk show people need to take notes💪
show would need a hype man
Awesome to see Legs (who played in MJ's generation) and JJ (who played in Lebron / Curry generation) have such an insightful discussion about the NBA and it's greatest players.
@@universe.factory Ya man, he won the 1996 three point shootout. He was a sharpshooter
@@universe.factory how are you a basketball fan and not know he played
@@R3DST1CK some of these guys don’t even know Barkley played…
Ya at some point age isn't even an excuse, fans know who played, regardless of era.
@@Dr._is_sleepy shut up everyone knows he played every single night he refers to a game he played in. I’ll give ya legs but not chuck 😂
I honestly think JJ knows he has the best basketball podcast lol
gilbert arenas is pretty good too
easily. I'm a draymond fan, but JJ blows him away.
production wise both arenas and Reddick have really good podcast but green is so insightful on top of the fact it's still while he is playing
Thinking Basketball from Ben Taylor is the best basketball podcast in my opinion
@@astromigui agreed. At least the Most knowledgeable for sure
For any soccer/football fans out there, Tim’s take on Steph climbing so many spots in the “all time list” this late in his career reminds me of Luka Modric. In the past 4-5 years he’s went from being a stand out player in his generation to one of the best midfielders of all time if not the best. All within the ages of 33-37. Guys like Steph and Luka are rare, I’m just glad I get to watch while they’re still playing.
damn bro that’s a really good point, as a warriors/madrid fan i have to agree on that. another comparison i always saw was Messi/Jordan - Ronaldo/Lebron
Facts
Feel like thats benzemas career arc too..but id still take iniesta over modric
@@slym9official309nah messi and lebron and pele and jordan
@@yousseflayous824 yeah true i can see that but personally i’d take messi/ronaldo as 1a 1b
This is honestly the best "GOAT" (for lack of a better term) discussion I've heard in a very long, long time. Kudos to this group. Refreshing and intelligent.
@Tyler Holt Or that he cant possibly be caught, and hes locked in at two.
If Curry wins three more championships, he obviously has a better career and legacy than Lebron (all else equal). If he beats Lebron this year, Lebron has like a one and five record against curry in the playoffs? Worse,
If Lebron wins a ring with this team, to me thats more impressive than his cleveland championship, or the Heat rings with a super team. And better than any one Jordan ring. By far.
Having a static list for guys still playing makes zero sense.
@@2639theboss The whole GOAT/Top 5-10 is weird. It’s a combination of who someone thinks the better PLAYER is and the legacy that comes with it.
For example, no person who watches basketball would say that Steph is a comparable player (Offensively and Defensively) to the type of players that MJ, Bron are. Coming from a Bron fan, Bron’s defense in recent years has been atrocious. However, he was in the conversation to win DPOY (should have according to many) and MJ outright won it.
Steph is an offensive threat. You don’t worry about him locking anyone down or blocking/altering shots.
So in that way, MJ, Bron, and Kareem will always be above him.
If we’re taking legacies and impact on the game, Steph is up there right next to MJ.
@@2639theboss wrong and way off, Lebron has AD and had Westbrook which made this Lakers team a superteam by definition, and when he couldn’t get it done with that they bailed him out with Russell, Jordan competed against the best and never had to join forces with other allstars, he made the players around him better…something Lebron has never been able to do
@@SportsMediaExposed Jordan did not compete with the best, today's NBA is so much more skilled than MJ's era. JJ even says that the warriors team with KD was better than the Bulls with MJ, you could even argue that the Celtics this year is better. The fact of the matter is that as generations pass, generations become better, that's the advantage of being in the future.
If there was a hypothetical basketball game today, 2023 Celtics vs 1995 Bulls, guess what. Celtics players have watched, studied, learned from the Bulls team while the Bulls back then would have 0 preparation to today's pace, Bulls are getting smoked. You could argue that basketball back then was more physical, and I agree that with that physicality came a more competitive/aggressive mindset, but nowadays you're not guarding someone by being more 'physical', today you have to be skilled with your defense to avoid naturally fouling and on top of that, players are so skilled at drawing fouls that you have to be careful with that too.
Long story short, MJ excelled in his own era, relative to his competition he was easily the goat. And if he was born in todays' NBA he'd probably be even better. But he wasn't. LeBron had to endeavor in a frankly better league and though sure, he doesn't have as many championships as MJ, he still carried wrinky dinky teams to the finals numerous times and still got countless accolades along the way. That's why LeBron is the goat over MJ to me, there's pride in being the best at the sport at the time especially when you don't have much to learn from, example Bill Russell, who has the most rings in history. He paved the way and was the best at the time, and he probably would've been better if he had more people to learn from. But just cause he was goated at the time doesn't mean that he's still the best in history, and that's the same with MJ and with LeBron surpassing him now too.
Also to add, LeBron is a player coach, he genuinely looks out for his teammates, which is something that MJ never did. I don't know where you got the idea that "LeBron has never been able to make his teammates better", while LeBron has always been the epitome of a role model that has inspired countless of his teammates. He's a wholesome family man, carried the hype since he was a kid and never let the fame deter him into a negative path. MJ had a gambling addiction and even fought his teammates, not saying that dude was a hall of fame menace because of that, cause he wasn't, but just to put things into consideration.
@@bristofer Here you go again attempting to tare down Jordan to make Lebron look better, blah blah blah…I’m not getting into it with you and your feelings…Facts are MJ’s Bulls are the greatest team ever…Lebron lost 6 Finals with superteams and JJ is obviously biased towards Lebron…He makes every excuse for Lebron but doesn’t one time mention when Lebron won and how he teamed up with Wade and Bosh, or how the league helped him win in 16…
Legs broke it down the best how the older generations see MJ … pure domination 24/7 from the court to the kiddy pool
Yeah y’all old heads slob on Jordan heavy
And what the younger generation today don't know without watching the tape is that, Jordan didn't hold the ball like James Harden, Russell Westbrook or Lebron James, he played a lot like Steph Curry, a lot of movement off the ball. Sometimes he will call for an iso, but Jordan had so many moves in his bag and offensively he's probably the most complete player, for his on-ball and off-ball scoring ability.
@@zxcvb3772 that might also the reason why retired players say that MJ can easily score a lot points in todays game.
@@zxcvb3772 Kerr was a PG for Phil. He has a lot of his ideas in his coaching, on top of coaching from Pop as well
He also played (and lost) during the most physical era. He dominated (and won) against arguably the weakest collection of talent during the expansion era (the nba twice added teams to the league during Jordan’s heyday). He also played during the intro of the skill era (Grant Hill, Kobe, AI, Ray Allen, KG, etc etc) and he got embarrassed. Everybody pretends it didn’t happen and nobody counts his wizards years, but just look at what LeBron is doing at his age and time of service currently, SMACK DAB in the prime of the most skilled/ talented era ever.
🤷🏽♂️
Steph Legacy’s is one of the most complex in history I swear. He can be top 5 or top 15 depending on how you view things
Well he would be the goat if he wins more titles than the pseudo goat lebron during the same era while having a winning record against him and in the finals.
Or more likely the whole lebron goat debate was always fraudulent media propaganda
@@jonz23mthe ring debate is so dumb. Is Tim Duncan better than lebron and curry? Obviously not, curry has had 5 seasons as a top 5 player in the league..lebron has 15-17. There is no debate
@@jonz23m The media's consistent take is that LeBron wasn't the GOAT, but even more... will NEVER be the GOAT. The reason it kept coming up (even just for them to deny it was true) was because what he was doing forced the discussion. As Charles Barkley said around 2010, LeBron will never be the GOAT, but that kid is bigger, stronger and faster than Jordan. Wait... faster? Yes, that's what he said. A 6'9" player at 260 pounds faster than Jordan? That's why even Skip Bayless has always said (he says he has) that LeBron is the greatest driver to the basket, ever. Meaning even over Jordan, obviously.
Whereas NOBODY has ever entertained for one second the idea that Curry might be better than Jordan. Or until right now, that he is conceivably better than LeBron. Which he isn't, and cannot be, according to Legs and JJ.
@@EC160 it's not dumb if they played in the same era. The least you can do as a goat is to dominate an era. I would not call it domination if another player wins more chips than you while being younger & in the same era & with the team he was drafted by.
The thing is that the 5th place in the top 5 could belong to anyone. Other than the 4 goats (russell kareem jordan lebron) you can take anyone in the top15 and make a case for him being top 5. The separation happens between those 4 and the next 11, so dicussing top 5 is pointless imo.
I love a conversation like this. Even the way he said, it’s MJ for him was fair. It’s so rare too just get a good convo that isn’t nonsense or yelling etc.
That’s why I haven’t watched espn or fox in years…It’s these two guys and Bill Simmons and his crew at the ringer for me
It’s rare *TO, not TOO
Bye tv channels, hello podcasts. That's basically it.
This is how most people, Stephen A included, really think and talk about such things outside entertainment. First Take isn’t serious, it’s Hot Take junk food and mostly fun and light hearted. That’s something that can’t be said of many clones that go too hot chasing attention and cross the line.
The legacies of LeBron and Curry are unique, individually unmatched, and unassailable. Same for say Kareem and MJ or Bird and Magic. Other than when head to head as they are at the moment, one doesn’t have to lose for the other to win.
He’s top 10 for me if he retired today. What he’s done for basketball, changing the game entirely for everyone on the planet, 4 rings, greatest at putting the ball in the hoop, once in a lifetime player.
Nah bron is the greatest at putting the ball in the hoop. That convo has been ended with his scoring title. Steph the greatest shooter tho.
@@xSilentknifegaming it’s about how you score
Greatest point guard at scoring no doubt.
@@xSilentknifegaming He’s not far from the greatest…It’s a longevity record
@@xSilentknifegamingscoring title? That’s just very good aging
I love this conversation. But when people talk about Mt. Rushmore, I lean back to tiers. How do you separate Curry, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Dr. J (including his ABA), Kobe, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq, and other guys I have forgotten? They are all so good, with such unique stories and talents.
Here's one test I've seen, to be considered in the top tier:
At least 4 rings. At least 4 MVPs. And at least 30,000 career points. Getting all three of these is rare, and frankly, getting any of them takes a great player (or someone with some luck in their career like Robert Horry or Derrick Fisher).
All of the names you mentioned fall short of this standard (except maybe Dr. J gets there with his ABA career-- I know he has over 30,000 points in total, but not sure if his titles and MVPs over there level him up or not).
So I think it's fair to see how close this next group got on these same standards. The ones with just 1 MVP are lesser greats, imo, for example. And Larry's 3 titles and 3 MVPs (consecutive! with 3 straight 2nd place votes the immediately prior years, and then 3rd and 2nd the next two years!) show a level of great play that puts him very high up indeed. In fact, when Kareem was naming players who are in the actual GOAT conversation, Bird was among them. 'Larry Bird could do EVERYTHING!,' he said. He also said Wilt and Oscar.
Mount Rushmore is MJ BRON KAREEM AND TIM DUNCAN no debate (tim duncan wins any debate against any other player u put him up against, unless curry gets a 5th)
@@phillipschuman4307 MVP trophy is storyline driven so it shouldnt hold as much value as we seen this year jokic should of won his third but because kendrick brought up race people got uncomfortable and people also got tired of voting for jokic, so JOEL won
@@OMG-si3wn Both Wilt and Russell have a very good case to be above Duncan, imo. It's certainly a debate for both of them. Bird and Magic do as well, and most lists have them ahead of Duncan. I've never seen him in any top 4 of any top 10 list (usually it's some Kobe fan putting Kobe there, which I scoff at).
One of them is best to ever do the most important thing in basketball. Shooting the ball.
One thing that doesn't get mentioned often with lebron, he is the only player in the top 5 that played with so many different players, teams, coaches, even different eras, while others mostly had a stable dynasty, coaching staff and Play style like jordan, kobe, duncan, curry, bird and to some degree kareem
That's actually easier.. he jumped ship to a better championship ready team every time his own team was about to trend down. The others had to build and grow their teams to that state.
@@hoalanho That is not easier and he is only jumping because he sensed weaknesses in organizations front offices.
@@manemane4735of course it’s easier. It’s hard to keep a team hungry every dynasty eventually falls apart. When you go and play with fresh new hungry players always with 1 or 2 in the top 20 like lebron has that’s easier than dragging the same team over and over. Now if Lebron had joined a team that was so so and he was the only add and all of a sudden they became a championship team maybe you would have an argument
@@manemane4735 Lol its 100% easier. What do you think is easier.. staying on one team, waiting for you team to draft and develop players or to find pieces you can work with OR jumping ship where you have 100% say of what players you want that will efficiently cater around your play style? .....
@@manemane4735definitely easier. Once wade and Bosh started to look washed he jumped ship back to CLE to team up with a prime Kyrie and prime K. Love. While filling the bench with ring chasers signing for vet minimums
As a person who actively watches basketball all my life and love to hear other individuals point of views , this podcast is absolutely brilliant.
It's crazy how when Legs was talking about not relaxing on defense and all of that at the end of this clip, I was instantly thinking about Steph Curry 😅🙆🏾♂️.
That's why Steve Kerr always say Steph is this generation version of MJ because Jordan was Kerr teammate and he got to witness that and now he see Steph do it in a different way
Magic went to 9 Finals in 11 years to start his career. And missed another by a lucky shot from Ralph Sampson. That's like playing an extra 3 seasons. His assists always get overlooked because so much is put in points per game. He averaged over 20 points 10 assists per game.
@@sharifnasser7635 for free? how does that work? Magic was drafted, Kareem was on the Lakers for about 5 years prior, and Worthy was drafted....
They dont really have competition in west at that time plus playing with kaj. Their bare minimum expectation is always finals appearance.
“Lucky shot by Ralph Sampson” the lakers lost in 5 games that series 😂.
@@AR-en6qx It's like Lebron in the East, bare minimum gotta be the finals due to lack of competition. At least Magic won 5.
Magic had a top 3 player of all time. This is like Curry being drafted on a team with LeBron lmao.
It’s crazy how people see you at the end of your career and quickly forget how dominant you were, the recency bias crazy!
Just the ball, a hoop and shoes. then i'll see you in 8 hours. the passion and joy of this man for basketball is what makes him one of the best analyst of this game. i love hearing his perspective on basketball.
The same thing is true with soccer all you need is a ball, some shoes and a wall. That's why it's so accessible for the rest of the world.
Mt Rushmore
MJ (Greatest Player)
KAREEM (Greatest Basketball Resume)
STEPH (Greatest Shooter)
LEBRON (Greatest All Around Player)
Facts
Straight facts
Nah man, Kobe is the greatest all around player.
Lebron can’t play defense like Kobe. Kobe is a better all around offensive threat as well. Kobe’s footwork was on a different planet
I'd replace steph with Shaq (most dominant player)
The Best Mt. Rushmore I've seen. 💯
Lol Reddick talks out of both sides of his mouth when talking lebron. Goes into a rant giving "context" for his losses. Yet when talking about Winning championships even with other teams injury a win is a win with no context? Lebron losing in 11 and 14 alone are knocks on his legacy when comparing him to the best of the best because of how he lost them. They talk about Jordan being on team with top 50 player in the same place as not being as impressive as Lebron winning in multiple places. Yet ignore Lebron losing with Wade a Top 50 player and Bosh a HF player multiple times.
Facts, he’s so biased it’s ridiculous
Its only 2011 thats a true black mark. No excuses there and for me that locks him in at #2, not only because he lost to a worse team, but because of his performance during the key games and getting outplayed by Dirk (and Wade) throughout the series. But in 2014 finals Lebron avg 28/8/4 while Wade and Bosh combined for 29/9/4 and no one else avg double figures. Lebron was the best player on the court that series, but his help, especially Wade, didn't show up. Wade was pretty cooked by that point, which is why Lebron upgraded to Kyrie after this series.
@@kevinjohnson4498 Numbers don't mean anything when you lose by the record margin in finals history, like Miami did to San Antonio in 2014.
@@domagojhrgovic7419 Yea the Spurs were a vastly superior team. That Heat bench was atrocious. Their 4th best player was 38yo Ray Allen and 35yo Rashard Lewis played significant minutes. Lebron was the best player in the series, but Parker, Kawhi, Manu, and Duncan were all better than Wade or Bosh this series.
@@domagojhrgovic7419Basketball is a team game. The Spurs were the better team, other than LeBron, no one on the Heat showed up. That's why people don't blame him for what happened in 2007 and 2018
People forget how close the 2016 championship was. The whole thing was decided on the last minutes of game 7. You can't just unlegitimize what was accomplished because of a that.
I think the fact that lebron was fresh out of high school and as raw of a prospect as possible and still flourished from the onset of his career is a testament to just how great of a basketball player he truly is. He didn’t have two or three years or more like most of the other greats on the list (aside from kobe of course but even he struggled at first) to play in college and develop before getting to the NBA.
The chosen one coming out of high school and he lived up to every expectation set
LeBron’s skills get downplayed so much because of his athleticism. When you look at the player he came into the league as versus the player he became, it’s really night and day. Sure the athleticism is still there but his skill set as a basketball player grew like crazy. Gotta have tremendous work ethic to improve as player like that and stay in the league this long, especially at this level.
Kobe, after Shaq, was the second-best player on that team from the time he arrived, and I loved EJ at that time. He struggled most because he was relegated to the bench.
@210TX skill? LeBron is great because athleticism + IQ. Not skill.
@@johngiovanni6045 he has just as much skill as he has IQ and athleticism
Couldn't click fast enough when I saw JJ had Legz on the Podcast again!
JJ Reddick has more basketball knowledge than Skip and SAS combined. Another stellar video, good sirs!
Best 15 minutes of sport & history analysis I’ve seen in a while 👏👏
What people ognore is that curry as historically great the year before they won the title. But people only pay attention to your win.
Two intelligent analyst who have ACTUALLY played in the NBA, with Tim and JJ’s careers spanning 1990 - 2021 when all our modern day goats played. The wisdom and insights these two share from being former players and intelligent, articulate people are unparalleled.
Legler is one of the best NBA analysts out there right now.
He is so well balanced in his takes and is a true student of the game.
He doesn't flip flop and doesn't make excuses for his favourites.
I think it's LESS compelling that LeBron did it in 3 different places. Any team can burn up their future to get some assets to pair with LeBron for a short run. Then he leaves that franchise after they all get the hardware they are looking for and finds a different ready made scenario. Making one franchise sustainably great, to me is more impressive in this era.
Strongly agree with this. Great take.
That's why I think the Steph/Warriors dynasty is really compelling. In the player empowerment era where players move on a dime, with stiff luxury taxes, egos etc that team core has stayed together and been to 6 finals in 8 years winning 4, with being a basket away from another in 16. Really incredible stuff. Lebron I agree is #2 ever but he's never built something like that. He's always trying to mess with stuff. Retool at every trade deadline. Move around. Etc
I have to disagree, we've seen a fair share of superstars team up or teams rebuilt around players fail in this era where the individual has a lot of power of where they land (hell, even the big three lakers with westbrook failed). To win 3 championships with 3 different teams, all making a minimum 2 finals appearances, is quite compelling. It's hard to say how many players could do that and find success.
@@codybennett6463 Disagree. We've also seen a fair share of players try to do it in one place. Relatively recently, Lillard, Jokic, Booker, Doncic, Embiid, and Morant have had mvp level seasons but failed to win even a single title. Several teams have worked the superteam angle successfully: Raptors won a title after getting Kawhi, Bucks after landing Holiday and of course LeBron did it in Miami and LA. (Btw, he doesn't have a 'minimum' of 2 finals appearances in LA.)
But NOBODY, other than Steph and Co, has stayed in one place and created a dynasty since Tim Duncan retired. You're welcome to be more impressed by LeBron's superteam approach, we each favor our own opinion, but your logic is not exactly bulletproof.
@@markfritzel5993we’ve also seen those same players you mentioned have a PROPERLY RAN FRANCHISE hellbent on drafting and surrounding Giannis and Jokic with all star level talent. When the hell did Cleveland do anything remotely close to that for Lebron’s first tenure? Y’all miss too much context when you make these arguments
love Legs, i could listen to the 2 of you do this all day...It's also extra cool that Legs played against those guys and JJ against newer guys
Throw in CJ McCollum too for the current player viewpoint and we’re set for life
Context driven talks and debates are awesome! This podcast is one of the best if you ask me... keep it up JJ!
I love this form of sports commentary. Not click baiting and clout chasing
So Curry gets knocked for playing with KD a top 20 player but Kareem plays with Majic a top 5-10 player and it’s glossed over. Strange.
And Lebron had
Prime :
Dwane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin love
Anthony Davis
Had
Ray Allen
Shane Battier(one of the best perimeter defenders in the league during those years.)
Udonis Haslem all time rebounding leader for the Miami Heat
Mario Chalmers He shot better than 38% from 3-point range, and his 242 games started are the most for any point guard who has ever played alongside LeBron (and sixth most overall).
Lebrons always had help
@@Ellis1993 lebron actually didnt get prime dwade or prime klove ( they were both selfs of themselves), chalmers literally out the league lol
Curry Haters are literally dying in the comments
Curry has hit my top 10 as of last season.
Think of who's on Mt. Rushmore: Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and Teddy Roosevelt...you can argue they're not the best presidents (FDR, Adams, Kennedy etc can be argued) so they're on Mt. Rushmore bc of their impacts on our nation...Mt Rushmore of the NBA should be based on impacts and 5 ppl stick above all others. I'm sticking 2 names together bc they're practically inseparable, Magic and Bird, Jordan, LeBron, Curry. Think of who had more impact on the NBA game, culture, and perception around the world. Kareem, Kobe, Dr. J, Shaq, Russell, and Chamberlain are all important but not on the same level... Kobe would be the closest bc of social media
Dam 💯
JJ i hope you can see the fan love for Legz on the pod. If it’s in his schedule before his college coaching stint soon to come, we’d love to have him
This is what sports talks should be ! Not people being biased or trying to push narratives .
JJ is pretty Bias to his era. He is always throwing little jabs in there about Jordan pretending like his giving a complement or knocking something about Jordan’s era or competition. I don’t have any respect for him either when he says nobody could be the durant warriors. Uhm Houston had them down 3 to 2 and then Chris Paul went down for the last two games. Houston might have still be them in game 7 without Chris P if they hadn’t missed 28 threes in a row. How is that the best team ever? That Houston team was nothing special.
Curry is in my top 10, but lower tier as in somewhere between #8-10 because he's a mediocre defender who never made all-defensive team
People do everything possible to keep Steph off Mt. Rushmore.
He doesn't have enough
They sure do, and the man ain't even finished! Every game he plays he's displacing a record holder.
@@sixasofar2961
Like who?
The argument is that Steph’s system is so good that he doesn’t need to shine that bright and his team would still be decent , but during some moments where they needed curry to show he didn’t. And we’re not talking about game 7 warriors kings, when they needed curry during game 7 of the 2016 finals. Or 2017 or 2018 it was Kd facing the big lights , not discrediting curry at all.
But he needs more to show , it’s obvious from a personal standpoint that the warriors system is amazing and might even multiply curry’s success.
But you have to give props to Lebron winning rings in 3 different teams as the man is unheard of. If he wins one more the debate is so much closer to Mj compared to curry’s career.
The only way for curry to show for it , is to either sweep the playoffs and average 30 or 35 and score in the clutch to be on Rushmore.
@@dparks2856 JJ and Tim has yet to explore the area where I think it's kinda what makes this discussion with Steph's climb as an all-timer is hella interesting tho. It is the very possibility that he might get let's say 2 more rings that'll put him equal to MJ's amount of rings. Bcos ppl can clearly see that he's still very well in his prime despite his age. And even some (if not lots of them) ppl considers these last 3 yrs of him after his pause in that bubble season as the best version of himself. The sort of possibility that he might get to that point is what should be the drive of the discussion regarding Steph's legacy in particular bcos he doesn't seem to slow down and is arguably even better than he ever was 😂
So let's say he really ends up with 6 rings while doing the 3-peat (ofc by positively assuming he's winning it this yr), with one of them rings he did it as a 6th seed (the only feat that only Hakeem managed to do). It can create some havoc in this so called locked list I think *if* that happens while it kinda guarantees him as one of the top 5 players all-time 🤷♂️
Does everyone literally forget about how Lebron started the whole "stacking the deck" trend when he left his team to go create a "big three"? He literally has an asterisk to two championships.
From a career perspective hard to ignore all of Bill Russell’s rings. No one close
You have to add Lebron all time in assists, rebounds, steals.. minutes played. His dominance in the east. The teams he brought to the finals. The teams he played against. So much to go into it.
I will say for my Mt Rushmore conversation includes everything you mentioned in addition to how they impacted the game and the culture on / off the court. For me I would end up giving Kobe or Curry the nod for the 4th spot.
Curry is not in the conversation unless he wins a ring this year. 4 rings isn't enough to be in that elite tier. That's why shaq and Wilt aren't there for me. Duncan, kobe, magic with 5 rings each plus everything they've done on and off the court would put them in those conversations. Steph with a 5th ring would be right in that convo as well
@@MrE_ doesn't lebron only have 4?
@@bartbart3832 but he’s the leage all time scorer and is top 10 in assist and rebounds 😂🤔🤡 big difference kid
@@devontacosby8593 and curry all time 3 point goat who changed the game forever 😂🤔🤡 big difference kid
@@adityaekka3409 that’s nothing compared to being the leage all time scorer and top 10 in assist and rebounds
Ive been waiting for a convo like this. Thank you! Never expected to hear it on ESPN, so Im really happy to hear what im hearing.
One of the best discussions I've ever heard on this topic. Is Curry the only one on this list under 6'6 or 6'7?
Yeah
tim is such a great guy and him and jj have such great discussions
Bill Russell - 11 championships in 13 NBA seasons. 2 NCAA championships.
There was only nine teams? Russell can’t be top 10!
Russell Kareem Jordan Lebron should be the unanimous mount rashmore. Kareem is the only one that's a bit more debatable, but the other 3 completely dominated their era, specially Russell.
Imagine the concentration of talent Russell had to deal with!
Steph is one of the best to ever do it, full stop, period.
Snoop recently said this, "no one wants to call Steph the best until it's time to be the best."
There are 100% people who just will NEVER want to acknowledge that a small, under the rim guard could dominate a league the way Curry does.
Curry simply has one of the biggest impacts on winning in the NBA and he's unprecedented in doing it at this age as a small guard.
He's my favorite of all time. And when it comes to most joyous to watch?
Curry is at the very TOP of that Mount Rushmore.
@@peterdurham5482 yea you are a prime example of what he's talking about. Steph has gotten better since 2015 and 16. He's 35 and playing better than ever. You just dont won't to admit the facts.
@@peterdurham5482 I'm sorry but mj is my goat.
@@peterdurham5482 no problem
@@peterdurham5482 I am a big fan of steph but MJ is my number one goat over anybody
@@andrejohnson4663 the same mj that it was illegal to double team in his career? that mj would get shot out of the gym by curry
You the goat podcaster, JJ. Carry on
Kareem has the best basketball resume. If you skipped college and your professional accolades don't dwarf Kareem then you don't pass Kareem. If you went to college 4 years then you are only evaluated on pro years. But Kobe and LeBron getting a head start can not be ignored.
Interesting discussion between the two eloquent and cerebral players. Steph should be in top 5 not just for all the Stats/accolades, but also transformed Basketball game (not just NBA) on its head for ever.
Transforming the game has nothing to do with the top-5 list.
Steph and Clay changed the league into 3pt shooting
So if LeBron would have gone to college he could have potentially went to Duke in 2003 and played with JJ Reddick and Jason Williams
The Kobe disrespect is INSANE 💯
Absolutely!!! Crazy how Kobe is considered the closet to MJ yet gets left out the goat discussion. Makes no sense to me!
Cultural icons tend to be overrated, the prime example being AI. Kobe is great and for sure a top 10-15 player, but he wasn't as good offensively as other greats (Magic, Bird, Curry, Jordan, Bron, Kareem, Shaq, West), and obviously neither on defense (most goats on defense being centers).
@@damien9056 Kobe was a stud on both ends and a winner, but offensively he was a classic volume scorer. Just saying...
People didn’t love Kobe when he played. They loved him when he died. That’s sad.
What legs said about Jordan sounds a lot like how curry is guarded today
two ex playas who can actually have thoughtful, nuanced, intelligent viewpoints, who knew!?!?! the rest of the ex playas NBA platforms struggle mightily with their native tongue and bark about respect and other meaningful Montessori hot takes. its about time there's a place to go for thinking fans. yes this should be a weekly rendezvous, these two.
As a warriors fan I actually hate that we got KD. Or really the discussion that will always be around it. Steph will never get the credit he truly deserves bc in his prime he teamed up with a top 3 guy after getting embarrassed on the biggest stage. July 4, 2016 after the initial shock went away the nba fan in me went “nahhhh man idk about all this”
facts. i think this Bron vs Steph argument would be way more clear right now in 2023 if KD hadn't joined GS and just let Steph and Bron go at it in the finals in 2017 and 2018 (assuming they got there, which I think they would have)
Don’t be mad about KD being on the team! Fight back! They let Bron form multiple superteams. Anyone with a brain knows that even when KD was on the team the most important player on the floor for the warriors was Steph. KD literally said he’s never been that open in his life and the data/film breakdown shows Curry was doubled more then any player on the floor the entire two championship runs with KD and Curry was directly responsible for over 60% of KDs buckets.
You’re not a real warriors fan then. KD helped us win 2 rings in dominant fashion. Those banners cement history. No one is going to care about the context of KD’s move in 50 years
@@jeffhardy6333 no one outside of GSW gives u guys any credit for those, alot of people still look at KD as a guy who hasnt won one yet
@@Ellis1993 the 17 warriors are arguably the best team even Bron never had a team that good 😂. Yeah obviously Steph was the most important player but KD was the #1 option. The last two mvps teamed up in their prime and played amazing basketball and I absolutely loved it. But at the same time I can still recognize that it was so unbalanced and understand why people downplay those rings.
Total Achievements: (Titles, MVPs, Finals MVPs, 1st All-NBA, 1st All-DEF)
1) Jordan = 36
2) LeBron = 31
3) Kareem = 29
4) Kobe = 28
4) Duncan = 28
6) Magic = 20
7) Russell 19*
8) Bird = 17
9) Wilt = 16*
10) Shaq/Hakeem = 16
**Curry only has 11…That’s just to put things into perspective. Also, Curry doesn’t even rank in the top 15 career scoring average
*Wilt and Bill Russell would have a lot more but finals MVPs and all defensive teams came after or at the very end of their careers.
Just hearing all the context and complexities acknowledged when it comes to this discussion is a breath of fresh air. I hope sports media continues heading more in this direction.
They are not media. They are former players.
All-Defense selections:
Kobe = 12
Curry = 0
All-NBA 1st Team selections:
Kobe = 11
Curry = 4
Career Scoring Avg:
Kobe = 25.0
Curry = 24.6
Kobe scored just as much as curry, was a much better clutch shooter and was without a doubt one of the greatest defenders of all time. Meanwhile, Curry can’t guard anybody. This is why Curry will never be able to pass up someone like Kobe Bryant
This 15 min clip was fantastic. Pure hoops and great analysis with reasoning. Kept me engaged the entire time.
If we doing all the if stuff to possibly further Steph's legacy as far as the Draymond suspension , what if Kyrie and KLove don't get hurt? On either side it isn't fair to do
You two are fantastic as a Pod duo.
LBJ winning in three different places is impressive? Have y’all looked at the rosters he moved to?😂
Looks like we got a new co host 😮 🎉
6:19 But the differences Larry Bird was with that team; he didn't leave a team to be with kevin McHale or Robert Parish. LBJ left Cleveland to play with Miami.... All the other teams you named made through the draft.... not like LBJ wanting to do it the easy way.
What JJ said about Jordan is what I seen watching film of him. He moved and played at a different level.
Very quick, and totally relentless, with unparalleled athletic gifts in his era (for his position, and also, overall).
But Isiah Thomas broke it down this way. He said Jordan didn't have great handles, especially going to his left. If he was going left, after a few dribbles, he'd pick up his dribble. So for years, the play book on Jordan was to push him left.
@@phillipschuman4307 Isiah is a hater who hates MJ. All other great players even said MJ didn't have weakness. Any words coming from Isiah Thomas about MJ that is negative should go out the other ear lol😂
@@vh2712 It is true though, Jordan was very right hand dominant. Jordan is the greatest but he had a few aspects of his game that he was just good at, just like every other player in NBA history. It's just what Jordan was great at he was incredibly great at.
@@vh2712 we can critique Jordan relax
Lebron’s the 🐐, of every era. Even in mj’s. He’d dominate cuz of his sheer size and athleticism. He is a magic johnson with a better skill to score. Coming from the biggest kobe fan ever. Lebron can play in any era and any of u saying he can’t are just plain stupid. Lebron has losses in playoffs because of his competition. New era equals better athleticism and shooting. Why can’t yall understand that
Comparing eras is dumb
I get what JJ is saying, but if a win is a win in the Finals to get a chip, then a loss is a loss, no excuses, no explanations about who they faced, they just lost. Reason being, is that same argument is not made for any other all time great except for Bron.
Because nobody else gets it seen as a negative for making 10 finals. 4-6 is obviously better than 4-0.
@@ctoaun23I think they’re equal 4 chips is 4 chips don’t matter how many attempts it took
@@UFunnyLowe So you put absolutely no value on any result other than winning. Silver medal? Nope. May as well have never tried!
I think most people realize that if Magic and Kareem and Bird didn't keep meeting each other in the Finals, all of them would have more titles. Losing the Finals certainly has a different value depending on the competition. Just like Boston keeping Dr. J's 76ers out of the Finals in those years, until they broke through with Moses.
@@ctoaun23 Nobody else gets it as a positive just making finals. Magic's 9 in 11 years. Russell's 12 in 13 years. Kareems 10 in 20 years. Never heard those used as legit arguments to boost the player until LBJ. Bron gets flak cause he's only one of 2 in the top 10 with a losing finals record. Wilt gets the same smoke too. Yes, there's context too it, but a lot of it just ends up sounding like excuses that others don't get imo
You guys need to get bron on the show. His basketball knowledge is incredible and the conversation would be incredible. Hopefully one day it can happen
Curry being near the Mount Rushmore is crazy
Not really
Not really I expected it
How so??
It’s not crazy considering Magic was Mount Rushmore worthy and Steph is on his heels. People had Kareem on their Mount Rushmore and some ppl have Magic above Kareem so by extension you can argue if Steph passes Magic he also passes Kareem
@@RecapRico steph is not on his heels. Not even close.
I kinda wish Steph never existed just because the game has too many 3s now. It's like a shooting contest. There are entire aspects of the game that just don't exist in the NBA, you have to watch Euro or college to get them.
MJ, Bill Russell, LeBron, Kareem is Mount Rushmore
If you have Kareem top 3, you should have Russell too. Kareem was a rookie the year after Russell's 11th championship. Kareem gets props for being the best college player of all time. He was dominating college from '66-69, while Russell and Chamberlain were still in their primes and competing for championships. Kareem played against Wilt for the same amount of time that LeBron was on the Heat. Russell is not that far away to the point he should be dismissed entirely. Russell has 5 MVPs, 11 NBA championships, 2 NCAA titles, a gold medal, and the finals MVP is named in his honor
I agree, Bill had the perfect career and I doubt anyone will ever come close. It's easy in hindsight to criticize his game because of how limited he was offensively, but why would you change your game when your team is winning every single year? Isn't that the goal?
Fair point, except for Russell usually being on 2nd team all-NBA (with Wilt getting 1st team).
@@phillipschuman4307 sportwriters and broadcasters voted for all-nba teams but the players voted for MVP. That's why Russell was 2nd team for 3 of his 5 MVPs. Real players knew who the best was, while everyone else was infatuated with Wilt's stats. Russell wasn't well liked by the media either, which could've also skewed votes in Wilt's favor. Wilt, Jerry, Oscar, Elgin, and every other player from that era acknowledge that Russell was the best
Bron winning with 3 teams while impressive let’s not act like he didn’t bring help with him. Wade,Bosh ,Kyrie, Love and AD maybe not all top 50 players but as close as you can get.
My mount Rushmore is lebron, mj, Kareem and Bill Russell.
Bill had 11 chips in 13 years and the two years he didn't win, he got hurt in the finals with an ankle injury and the other year was the first year that coach Red retired and Bill became a player coach and they lose in the second round to Wilt Chamberlain who goes on to win the NBA Finals. Absolutely incredible.
Really not that incredible they were getting top 7 picks each season cause the league had 12 teams and the league allowed for a worst level of play compared to post merger basketball. His career is irrelevant due to what I just finished typing
@@pandabear1576 Hey everybody Bill Russell's career is irrelevant due to what this guy just finished typing.
@@jackaxelkredell485 it’s irrelevant to the conversation of Mount Rushmore players*. Great player but what guys have done since Kareem entered the league eclipses anything he did.
@@pandabear1576 Many people in Baseball put Babe Ruth in the top X amount of players, most consider him in the Mount Rushmore of Baseball. But when he played there was only 16 teams and there were no black players in his league. You can't just remove what happened before Kareem because it isn't like today. If in 20 years, the NBA has 40 teams, are they just going to start removing Kareem and Jordan for the simple fact that they played with 10-15 less teams???? Players can't control the era they played in, they can simply play in their era and should get judged on that, and not comparing them to different eras.
@@pandabear1576 how does less teams make those teams weaker? The opposite actually happens: more teams dilutes the talent pool and makes it easier for a strong team to dominate
Never forget when Tim Legler absolutely demolished Skip
I love Kobe but let’s be honest people were debating if he was even in the top 10 before he passed away and now he’s arguably on the Mount Rushmore?
Who the hell was debating if he was a top ten player all time? Kobe’s arguable the Greatest basketball player to ever play the game!
@@Ellis1993 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Not a chance in hell, try again. Not greater than Shaq not greater than magic nowhere near lebron.
Kobe top 10 though
Tim Duncan somewhere in there
Especially if curry, Kobe is..Duncan was a monster on both sides of the ball for long time.
Curry is the GOAT shooter, GOAT combo guard (though Jerry West has an argument as he was a WAY better defender & he didn’t have 3P shot or else his 30 ppg in finals would be 36 ppg and in playoffs 32 ppg. He also had much better clutch stats then Steph), but his INDIVIDUAL Career accomplishments don’t measure up to most others in the Top1-15!
Let’s look at All NBA Teams & Top5 MVP finishes for example
Lebron 18 (prob 19 soon) ALL NBA (13x First team All NBA most ever) & 14 Top5 MVP finishes (4 MVP, 4 2nd place, 3 3rd place)
MJ 11 All NBA teams (10 first team!) & 10 Top5 MVP finishes (5 MVP, 3 2nd place, 2 3r place finishes)
Kareem 15x All NBA (10 first team) & 15 Top5 MVP finishes (6 MVP, 1 2nd, 2 3rds)
Magic/Bird 10x All NBA (9x first team All NBA and their careers cut short by HIV/Back) and 9 Top5 MVP finishes (3 MVP for both, Bird had 4 seconds as well!)
Duncan 15x All NBA (10 first teams) 9 Top5 MVP (2 MVP, 2 2nd, 2 3rd)
Shaq 14x All NBA (8 first teams) 8x Top5 MVP finishes
Wilt Chamberlain 10x All NBA (7x first team) & 10x Top5 MVP (4x MVP, 2 2nds, 1 3rd)
Kobe 15x All NBA (11x first teams), 11x Top5 MVP (though 6/11 are 4th 5th but still impressive)
Hakeem 12x All NBA (6 1st) & 6 Top5 MVP finishes
Jerry West 12x All NBA (10x first team!) 9x Top5 MVP
Big O 11x All NBA (9x first team) 9x Top5 MVP
Steph Curry 8X All NBA (soon to be 9) but only 4x 1st team All NBA and only 4x Top5 MVP finishes
I didn’t even mention the fact all but Magic & Steph made 3-12 All Defensive teams (they both made zero).
This would be a great ESPN segment with these two every week
Hmmm work under ESPN where they will tell you what your own opinions should be or work your own youtube channel and have 100% control... hmmm...
People confuse TEAM success (ownership, GM/FO, Coaching, teammates, HEALTH of your team and others, luck, timing, etc) with who are the best all around players.
For example Hakeem Olajuwon if he switched with Russell Wilt Kareem Shaq Duncan he’d have 4-12 titles and they’d all have 0-2 titles on Rockets. The amount of ppl who sleep on Hakeem is staggering! He’s undoubtedly a top4-7 GOAT all around player. When he had even a remotely good team he made WCF or Finals and he never played with a PRIME HOF or HOF Coach/GM! In his 2nd year with Ralph Sampson they murdered defending champions Showtime Lakers in 1986 WCF (5 games) then took arguably greatest team ever 86 Celtics 6 games in Finals. Then Sampson got hurt soon after and their TEAMS were not good at all. 93/94/95 he had decent to good teams finals again and went WCF🏆🏆(93/94 teams pre Drexler was not even that good) with 93/94 two of the best playoff runs ever (1st and 5th most made FGM ever in a playoff run!)! He’s also greatest all around defender ever besides Russell! The guy averaged like 4 bpg & 2 spg in his prime with 28, 12, 3 on 53% shooting in 111 playoff games from 85-95!
If Big O or Jerry West were on Celtics instead of Royals/Lakers they have 10x as many titles then the 1 they have.
MJ was 0-5 in Playoff series in 80s Vs > TEAMS Celtics & Pistons (6-18 in games)! That doesn’t mean Larry Bird and Isiah Thomas are > MJ it means their TEAMS were > TEAMS!
Saying someone is “locked into a number” makes no sense either it just shows you are biased and unwilling to change.
If Dr J had TEAMS as great as 83🏆76ers teams since 76-77 he’d have way more then 1 title.
If Curry never had Draymond Klay Durant + HOF Coach HOF GM he wouldn’t have nearly that many titles.
If LeBron was drafted in 03-04 by spurs instead of a horrid Cavs organization (they were bad before he got there for 5 years and his first 7 years awful) he’d have more titles. If in 2015 Kyrie Love are healthy he wins that title.
Curry is the GOAT shooter, GOAT combo guard (though Jerry West has an argument), but his INDIVIDUAL Career accomplishments don’t measure up to most others in the Top1-15!
Let’s look at All NBA Teams & Top5 MVP finishes for example
Lebron 18 (prob 19 soon) ALL NBA (13x First team All NBA most ever) & 14 Top5 MVP finishes (4 MVP, 4 2nd place, 3 3rd place)
MJ 11 All NBA teams (10 first team!) & 10 Top5 MVP finishes (5 MVP, 3 2nd place, 2 3r place finishes)
Kareem 15x All NBA (10 first team) & 15 Top5 MVP finishes (6 MVP, 1 2nd, 2 3rds)
Magic/Bird 10x All NBA (9x first team All NBA and their careers cut short by HIV/Back) and 9 Top5 MVP finishes (3 MVP for both, Bird had 4 seconds as well!)
Duncan 15x All NBA (10 first teams) 9 Top5 MVP (2 MVP, 2 2nd, 2 3rd)
Shaq 14x All NBA (8 first teams) 8x Top5 MVP finishes
Wilt Chamberlain 10x All NBA (7x first team) & 10x Top5 MVP (4x MVP, 2 2nds, 1 3rd)
Kobe 15x All NBA (11x first teams), 11x Top5 MVP (though 6/11 are 4th 5th but still impressive)
Hakeem 12x All NBA (6 1st) & 6 Top5 MVP finishes
Jerry West 12x All NBA (10x first team!) 9x Top5 MVP
Big O 11x All NBA (9x first team) 9x Top5 MVP
Steph Curry 8X All NBA (soon to be 9) but only 4x 1st team All NBA and only 4x Top5 MVP finishes.
I didn’t even mention the fact all but Magic & Steph made 3-12 All Defensive teams (they both made zero).
1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Stephen Curry
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Bill Russell
9. Larry Bird
10. Shaquille O'Neal
My personal list. Honestly, every man on this list is a king. We can do comparisons all day, moving each person up and down. The only thing that will not change, is the MJ IS THE GOAT! THAT IS ALL. 23 ALL DAY!!!
I had the pleasure to see MJ live and it was literally like he was walking on air. You could take pickup your beer, take a sip, put it back down all while he was in the air.
I had the pleasure to see Goat James and it was like he was playing against himself, like getting all the points, assist, and rebounds
Lebron been ring chasing his whole career and still only got 4 IN 20 YEARS
To all the people claiming Lebron winning different titles in 3 different places is “easier”….why haven’t other players done it then? How is it that guys like Kawhi Leonard and Kevin Durant who’ve been on at LEAST three different championship calibre teams, haven’t been able to achieve the same amount of success and consistency Lebron has? At some point we have to acknowledge that Lebron is THE common denominator on the “superteams” he apparently “jumped to”. This isn’t KD going to the warriors and then the warriors winning another title without him. The Last ring the lakers won before Lebron arrived was a DECADE ago, they missed the playoffs 6 straight times before he arrived, completely irrelevant. CLE NEVER won a title in the first place and Miami had not won in half a decade and were a first round exit in 2010 by the time Lebron arrived, not to mention both Miami and CLE have yet to capture a title NOT associated with Lebron James.
Not to mention aside from Miami, 99% of the CLE roster had close to ZERO legitimate playoff experience (both Kyrie and Love never made the playoffs until 2015 with Bron) and Ty Lue was a ROOKIE COACH when they won the title in 2016. How is any of that easy?
Curry have 4 rings and lebron have 3.5
Curry win more in less time .
Curry has 14 yrs in league while Lebron is 20 yrs
Curry has 1 finals mvp and no defense all nba teams
Steph has changed the game and is the reason KD is considered a top 15 player all time, not the other way around, despite KDs talent.
No doubt HOFer and driving force behind the dynasty.
But I’ve never gotten this top 5 discussion. Kobe, Tim, and Magic -chips, finals appearances, MVPs, FMVPs, etc. are head and shoulders above him currently. He may get to the convo with one more, but I would still have him behind those guys with out really aggressively arguing it. We can talk about passing Shaq, Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, and Russell-but that still only puts him at 7 at most, and that’s with the 5th chip.
the way it works is if you won titles before 1998 they have no asterisk even if you had the most stacked team of all time and your finals opponent had 5 injured starters and if you won titles after 98 they only count if you had no all-star teammates and all your playoff opponents were at their physical peaks
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Damn right, that's how some people and pundits are I swear.
Bubble championship is not a championship by NBA standards. No travel etc. Covid (shortened season, advantages for Lebron due to home facilities for training) and Bubble was God send for Lebron who was already becoming injury prone and old. He has only won three true championships in 20 plus years. He has had more 'luck' (privilege-switching teams to bring advantage) than any other player. This has worked tremendously in his favour in getting him to be perceived as 2. Kobe's two championships involved more hardwork and are more valuable than all of Lebron's championships together. There is alot of 'context' that needs to be taken into account when evaulating Lebron. Resume of Jordan is by far most impressive and elegant. Kareem was not lead act in half of his championships and not two way threat.
Tim Legler is the man
Disingenuous asf to deregard the FACT that when you're talking
Greatest Resumes Of All-Time
talkin bout ,
"Who Kareem or LeBron? " gtfoh
Jordan has as many
NBA Finals MVPs as those two men combined.
Curry career as a whole has put him in the Mount Rushmore discussion. Not just this past year.
KD came and won the finals mvps in 2 of the 4 chips vs lebron
He’s nowhere near a top 4 player of all time. Not even a top 4 current player or top 4 guard.
@@brendanbloom3366 your first statement was believable but your next 2 just ruined any chance of credibility
Curry should’ve gotten the second mvp over KD. Would’ve gotten the mvp in the Toronto series if it weren’t for injuries. And he probably deserved it over iggy, iggy got it because he guarded bron and he was the best player on the floor
@@teejstroyer
Well he didnt
STOP IT WITH THE 2016 GAME 5 BOLOGNA! Draymond played games 3, 6 & 7 and the cavs still won. The warriors went out and got Durant because they needed to
Lebron isn't top 5! Hes tied 6th with Shaq and Duncan. Jordan, Kobe, Kareem, Bird ,Magic top 5. Lechina is the most hated athlete of any sport of all time.
These excuses for Lebron are so silly. Does anyone make excuses for losing in the finals against the Celtics? How does a guy with a losing record in the finals make #2? 🤔 Karl Malone was #2 now #3 on the all time scoring list. Does anyone say hes a better scorer than MJ or Kobe? How does one dominanate an era when 3 guys have multiple rings during your era and most are against you and your teams. Like how do you get credit for going to 2 superteams, lose with both before winning and still get full credit for wins while also getting excused for the losses. People give him all this credit for getting swept by the Spurs but act like that 91 Bulls team had amazing players. Scottie wasnt even an all star that year. Legs legit tried to make a case that a guy with 6 titles 6 mvps in 2 different eras is somehow behind a guy with a career losing record in the finals. A guy whos been swept 2 times, gentleman swept 2 times and even on a superteam got destroyed by finals record margins. Its insane how they cover for this guy and swear you are the hater or biased because you see it.🤷🏿♂️
i love steph and his greatness and impact but its insane to not recognize how fortunate he was in his on and off court situation compared to Bron. He grew up in a millionaire home with an NBA player father, drafted to a team that continued to draft a GOAT core around him, then to top it off got an elite coach that took them to the next level. You can't write a better career full of opportunities than that.
Lebron was raised fatherless, from the projects of Akron, given immense presssure to succeed after being drafted into one of the worst managed organizations at the time, and still managed to overcome and meet his hype. He gets knocked for willing his team to the finals AT 22 YEARS OLD and being swept by the Spurs dynasty at their peak. Charles Barkley was right, its the greatest athlete story of all time.
One thing I will say is when people hype him up for being great and little but don’t acknowledge he had an NBA father and had the resources early on to really train. Even his brother is a great shooter and yes you gotta give both of them their credit for the work they put in themselves but at the same time that’s a big help too
Say it louder for the people in the back!
Good points, But LeBron was also very lucky to be born with the athletic and mental gifts he has. There are very few humans on earth with his speed/size ratio.
Steph is closer to average human size, and actually below average athletically for an NBA player.
@@CleverAccountName303that part these folks crazy. Talking about rich and nba farther. If it was that easy why the rest of the nba players sons ain’t great. Yal just ride that man nuuzztz so much. The man came out of high school he was blessed. Steph had to fight in college when they was saying he wasn’t a nba player then joining the nba and have ankle issues his first couple years. Yal folks crazy
A lot of players have been surrounded by an amazing core and coach but didn’t achieve what Steph has( I.e James Harden, Russ, KD). People have had NBA dads and not even made into the league. Look at Magics son or even the “GOAT” MJ’s son. Steph is truly an outlier. You can’t pass shooting through genes. Look at Klay and his Dad for example. Regardless of who his parents where I reckon Steph makes it. He’s cut from the same fabric as Lebron in my opinion. It takes a certain level of work and dedication to get to where he’s gotten. His background shouldn’t be a disqualifying factor in terms of his greatness. Who knows if Lebron grew up like Steph, he might not be who he is. What makes them different is the hunger to succeed regardless of where they come from.
I was with you guys... All the way up until you said LeBron winning in three different places is a compelling argument for LeBron's resume. You even had the nerve to talk about with Michael Jordan was blessed with... First of all it was the second 3peat where he was blessed with another top 50 player and the best rebounder. The first three championships we're built from the ground up straight out of the mud on Michael's back. And even the second three championships, we're after the Bulls became a dumpster fire while Michael was playing baseball. And what people always leave out is that Dennis Rodman was on his way out of the league with his shenanigans and resurrected his career playing next to Mike. It's not like he showed up as a top free agent. Other than that they brought in Toni kukoc who was a decent two-way player, and the rest of the team was the same guys who couldn't make the playoffs the year before until Mike got back with 17 games to go and dragged them into theIt has and always will be a point in the favor of a player that stays on the same team the entirety of his career through thick and thin. It should not be a point for a player who abandons his situation to go to a better one. Kevin Durant included. No props for LeBron manufacturing the team in Miami, no props for LeBron manufacturing the team in Cleveland and no props for Anthony Davis and the bubble getting him his fourth chip. LeBron is great but the arguments people make for him being the top one or two ever are usually weak at best.
Kobe bryant in 3 years (08-2010) played more 50 plus win teams in the playoffs than magics whole career. Also played against zone defence, much slower paced era. Kobe had it 10x harder than magic and kareem.c
Win totals are such an arbitrary metric. Magic had a center who didn’t play d. Kobe had pau bynum and if no malice in palace a possible mvp in artest lolololol
@@aaronphdbdnd5535 magic and kareem are ranked top 5 for most ppl and played together for most of their careers, magic his whole career. Also had james worthy in a much much weaker era by any metric. And way less talent to compete with for mvps. Put kobe on the 80s lmaoo
@@invincible0463 your argument about who had it tougher is stupid, u can only play who's in front of you. Go back to the drawing board and formulate a new argument.
Magic and Kareem over Kobe all day, imagine Kobe had the greatest coach of all time coaching his team and played with prime shaq and yet you try to martyr Kobe lol.
@charles9489 and kobe done it without shaq. 3 straight finals in a much tougher era and conference. Magic never had to carry a team. Magic couldn't even shoot or defend lmao its not close.
I’m still wondering how people put Lebron who’s has 3 rings and a crooked one ( plastic Covid-19 ring) over Kobe who has 5 chips under his belt on Mount Rushmore 😂🤦🏽♂️