I really like this style of video. Great sponsorship you did! I downloaded the Shotfx app and tried the same effect as you, it made a lot of fun, thank you!
As for someone who is studying theology. Orc are supposed to mirror Nephilim ancestors, like Anakin and Rephaim. In Ancient Israelite and the 2nd Temple world view, they believed once they died, their spirits became Demons/Bastard Spirits. They are not God's creation, they are neither Men or Spirit Beings. They are mix. For that reason, they have no redemption.
I seem to remember a letter in which Tolkien answers this very question, but I haven't been able to find it yet. In the letter he says that orcs were naturally evil, but not irredeemably evil, and could choose to be good. I always felt that orcs were deeper than most people realized. While on cursory glance, they just look like the faceless evil, but they deserve more pity than scorn. They are as much victims of Melkor and Sauron as anyone, if not more so. I remember a quote: "And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar." I'd like to think that, free from Sauron, they'd be able to make some sort of peace with men, elves and dwarves.
I'm not sure I agree there could ever be peace with the orcs. Without Sauron they wouldn't have an immediate leader, but Melkor is a part of their very nature. They are never really free of him as long as they exist. Tolkien even talked about how the evil Morgoth poured into the world is analogous to the power and evil that Sauron poured into his ring. He put his evil and corruption into the very foundations of nature itself. Not just some token or totem that could be destroyed or made pure again. The world is never truly free of Morgoth's malice and evil influence, even if he isn't an active force in it any longer. Sadly I think the orcs are doomed to be evil by nature for good. Like you mentioned, perhaps they could choose to do good deeds here and there, but I don't think there would ever be peace between them and the other Children of Illuvatar.
I imagine they’d be like Gollum when Frodo nearly redeemed him. Or perhaps they would be like gnomes, though the idea someone mentioned of them reverting back to Elves would be really touching.
Or maybe once free of the power that corrupted them, they would revert back to what they were before they were corrupted. Thus "good" orcs would become uncorrupted elves or men, but could not exist as such.
Well they seem to go extinct by the conclusion and maybe earlier than the dwarves and elves in middle earth, so my best hope is that Aragorn could differentiate the orcs that were still being a threat and those who want to be left alone as they dwindled.
I find it genuenly interesting that even Tolkien himself changed his mind on the Orcs. Going from them being wholly evil, to being uncomftorable with the idea of an entire race being irredeemable. Ultimately settling that Orcs *naturally lean* towards evil, but have the ability to resist their evil nature and change. Shadow of Mordor & Shadow of War, while playing fast and loose with the lore, did a great job with this. They gave the Orcs distinct personalities and ,while most are vile to say the least, there are some who are loyal, brave and/or friendly even. There's a reason Ratbag is considered a fan favorite.
Don't forget Forthog Orc Slayer who in some way might be an Orc, but doesn't looks like an Orc which can be a redeemed Uruk who Secretly helps the Player.
I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien wanting Frodo and Sam to meet a tribe of good orcs as they crossed Mordor. But he had to chop it from the story so that the story wouldn't ramble.
@@drm726 And whole pages of filler of some funny random man in the forest who is so powerful to treat the One Ring as a toy only to never see him again after that. To top it off, he refuses to elaborate who or what the hell he is lol
And yet he kept in the tangents about a tree and the history of Helm’s Deep, and the part where after Sauron gets defeated Saruman and Grima just butt in at the last second and steal his thunder.
There was the scout who inadvertently saved Frodo and Sam in Mordor. He refused a direct order, gave a brief orcy speech about about how the war is already lost, shot his boss in the neck with an arrow, and then ran away. All while the hobbits lay just yards from him.
First of all I just love to see when you guys are talking about how religion and catholic faith is connected to Tolkien's works, just love to hear that! I know that he is not cannon but I just love Ratbag so he is some kind of 'good' orc... But from cannon one's I always loved commander of the Uruk Hai, Ugluk, he never felt as a villian to me! He was just an Uruk 'soldier' that was doing his task just as anyother military commander would do, so for me he was always some kind of badass! James as always great and interesting video and this clickbate is one of the best ever!
Ugluk is a fantastic character... my most recent read through was after listening to Dan Carlin's excellent ww1 podcast series. Ugluk really just comes off as a deeply damaged professional killer, disillusioned at heart, but a leader among people who feel the same way. As an officer and gentleman and quite young man at the time of his service, tolkein would have taken a very deep impression from the brutal professionalism of people older and more in combat than he, and he would be able to understand the commonality of people like that on both sides.
I think the Shadow of Mordor/War series explored this idea well in that you can find Orcs that are extremely loyal, brave, friendly even. Now as for Tolkien's writing about good orcs? Hmm, I don't know if I could fully say good, but I could say something like chaotic neutral, like we don't know what kind of orcs exist in the east or in the south. Or what became of those bands who survive after the fall of Sauron and the wars after Aragorn becomes king.
I actually really enjoy these games. Not only gameplaywise, but also all the interactions with the orcs and their personality. Although you can't take the story as lore it's still quite interesting.
@@HeadhunterKev96 plus Orc Bards who slay at the Lute, did Tolkien ever write an Orc Bard who started a song with Tra la la? Those guys were the best to run into.
there is no reason to assume the orcs of the east and south are any different than those we know. Tolkien described them as evil, being chaotic neutral does not make them less so. after Sauron's defeat the only difference is that they start serving themselves and their sick nature instead of someone else.
My personal head-canon is that the Blue Wizards were sent as missionaries primarily to the Orcs instead of to Elves or Men, and that they helped establish civilizations of good Orcs far to the east of Mordor or even Rhun.
I think you've neglected to point out the moments and mentions in the Lord of the Rings that humanise orcs through their relatable dialogue (gossiping and complaining about their bosses), and how some orcs are forced to take part in this war against their will and how they're basically all (or for the most part) slaves to Sauron's will through mind control and fear. This is repeatedly pointed out in the book, so even before extrapolating speculation from letters or analysing the orcs' behaviour, we know just from the narration that there is a possibility of orcs being or becoming good.
I’d love a story (in any format, literature, film, role playing game) about a group of orcs following the War of the Ring, just trying to find a place in the world now that they’re out from under the boot of a Dark Lord, but the millennia of conflict with the other races presents stigma and persecution that must be overcome. Mayhaps they could manage to get an audience with King Elessar to make their case to him, and while he’s sympathetic he still needs to consider how his subjects would react. He’d have revolts from Osgiliath to Fornost if he just unconditionally pardoned them, but executing those seeking mercy goes against his convictions. 😅 And maybe if GRRM had the answer to what happened to the orcs, he’d stop thinking about it and finish Winds of Winter! 😂
I believe there was mention of them being evil but not irredeemably evil. They weren’t created so much as they were twisted, tortured and disfigured. Pain, anguish and evil is all they know, as inseparable from life as their servitude. So when you take away the master they serve, what’s left for them? I think deep down there is still some glimmer all children of Iluvatar bear
I absolutely love this, thank you so much for being objective. I remember in a ROP livestream, you both had seemed pretty against the idea of a redeemable orc, so I was so pleasantly surprised that you didn't just brush this question aside and actually found quotes that could be the opposite as well. Thank you!
Of course! These videos are all about what Tolkien wrote, if anything is an opinion we always try to make that clear, and we try to never let our opinions effect things that are written! It’s very gratifying to see people see that 😁 you members of the Brohirrim rule!!
I really enjoyed this video.Loved the style keep doing them this way very easy to follow and learn from. Actually I'm a big fan of vfx, the effects that you introduced in the Shotfx is awesome 😁
To me, my thought of the orca are akin to the borg, where they are more of a collective organism. Their animal instincts are more pronounced and their “humanity” is subdued. Therefore they act as a force for terror, but individually, they have little power or intention. Perhaps individuals could be redeemed if they are separated from the collective.
No, I don't think that sounds right, they argue too much with each other and Sauron created a Conlang to help give them a sense eof collective identity then whipped them up into a frenzied ideology of racial supremacy to get them to fight his enemies, if they didn't have much will or intention of their own he wouldn't have needed to do that I think.
I'd say that there probably were a number of "good" orcs, although I doubt that there would ever be so many as to leave a legacy beyond their lifetime, except for whatever crafts they might make. After all, Tolkien stated that orcs were the innovators of war, inventors of siegecraft and its engines, and the mere construction of a fortress like the Hornburg would require a greater familiarity with such engines as to resist them than would be needed to wield them. So the Rohirrim either A: captured and brutally interrogated/tortured a number of orcs to learn the secrets of their engines and how to resist them, B: captured, reverse-engineered, and became experts in the use of siege engines, or C: they were able to secure the aid of a particularly clever orc, one who would realise that allying with Rohan would allow him to live a life of comfort without fear of death in exchange for teaching them how siege engines work, and maybe getting to spend the rest of his days thinking up all manner of new engines for fun. I do suppose that A is possible,but it would make Rohan evil. B isn't _impossible,_ but I doubt the horsemen of Rohan would have the patience for engineering and siegecraft to that level. C just seems most likely, that there would be at least one orc with the cleverness to design good weapons and the intelligence to realise he'd be better rewarded working for a master that wouldn't throw him into the fire at their pleasure. EDIT: recently re-read Tolkien and learned/relearned that the Hornburg was built by Gondorians, not the Rohirrim. The overall point about orcs being the inventors of siege engines still stands, but the Men of the West are well known as makers of good weapons and ships of war, so it may have just been them mastering captured siege engines and perfecting the designs and defences.
I always felt that Tolkien expressed his own thoughts in a way that makes it pretty clear that there were no ‘good’ orcs at the time of the events of middle earth but it was perfectly plausible that they, along with everything else deemed ‘evil’ in arda, could be redeemable if they wanted to be. Some orcs likely hated Sauron and melkor and only served them out of fear. So it’s a yes really, there COULD be good orcs, just as there were bad elves, dwarves, and men
Some? Make that the most. There is however large difference in not serving dark lord and being good. Two orcs in Cirith Ungol talk pretty openly about deserting and live off of small time raiding just like "the good old days". Orcs were products of millenia of eugenics, social and psychological engineering not to mention good old fashioned magic with a goal being to remove any "good" left in them and leave them open to will of the dark lords (Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman). I sincerly doubt that any "good" orc had lived long enough to reach adulthood even in the independent orc communities as the orc culture was violent and treacherous even there. That being said IMHO Orcs could be redeemed, but in the process they would cease to be the orcs.
@@Artanis99 I feel ya, kinda agree. But I personally feel it’s plausible to imagine one orc, at least one, ditching all his shit and moving to the shire to live happily ever after among the hobbits…. It’s fukn far fetched I know. If we could ask Tolkien directly we’d probably just get a “perhaps so” 🤣
@@Artanis99 I always thought of them being of the dark lords will, meant they just wanted whatever their particular master wanted. It just cracks me up when people think of them as a drone. Like the dwarves were before eru gave them life
@@Rhyno9750 I think the closest you'd get is someone like Zak of the Salvatore's Drizzt Trilogy. He was one of the few drow that were not evil, but he was still trapped by their culture and result was bitter, cynical and broken man whose only joy in life was killing other drow (especially priestesses of Lloth).
There were orcs who hated Sauron or didn't care about him at all (like goblins in Misty Mountains who basically created their independent enclave ruled by the Great Goblin; or Uruk-hai who served only Saruman and were more than eager to kill "Sauron's orcs"), so from a certain point of view such orcs were "good" (if you consider "good" to be "against Sauron and his rule"). There certainly were orcs holding values and virtues like honour, loyality, brotherhood, freedom - which were common among Men, Elves and Dwarves. So some orcs (not all of them) were not so much different from "good" races. I hope that after the War many of them found a new way of living, fulfilling their redemption
Imagine a scenario where Aragorn or another ranger of the north travels with a select group of battle-hardened companions, all of them kinless, one of whom happens to be an orc who doesn't consider himself an orc or least is a mercenary with connections to no one, a culture where each lives by his sword and it just doesn't matter to them. Aragorn's service to Rivendell earns him an audience with Elrond bringing a couple of his compadres with him, and as a reward for his deeds the orc is eventually considered an elf.
It's not impossible to imagine the Orcs being honorable and even good. But they are still creatures designed to hate the light and thrive in darkness. I'd imagine there were moments in Middle-Earth that Orcs could be bargained with or even make friends with. But it would be extremely rare and often risky.
I have wrestled with the orc problem for a long time. And I have to say that the orcs are one element of Tolkien's world which I never liked! I could have done without them. They seem to be mostly cannon fodder for the heroes who don't have to feel guilty when they kill sentient humanoid creatures! Elves, dwarves, humans and hobbits agree that there are no good orcs and therefore it's perfectly ok for them to kill as many orcs as possible! In Tolkien's world there is no room for good orcs - because if there would be a single good orc, the whole system would collapse and the heroes could not continue to go on killing sprees and improve Middle Earth by getting rid of as many orcs as possible, since they are regarded as vermin. When Tolkien got older and more mature, he started to wrestle with his dark brain children, and he conceded that, while there might not be any good orcs, they could still be redeemable - although not in the eyes of their fellow humanoid creatures in Tolkien's world, but in the eyes of Eru Illuvatar. I really disliked Amazon's Rings Of Power - but there was one plotline which really touched me: the story of Adar and his Uruks. Adar turns out to be an ancient former elf who has been captured together with other elves by Morgoth, who tortured and corrupted them until there wasn't much elvishness left in them - and they became the first generation of proto-orcs. Tolkien has wrestled throughout his life with various narratives of how the orcs have been created, and the idea that the first orcs were tortured elves, is the most well known version, and Amazon's Adar has been inspired by that narrative. Joseph Mawle is a great actor and he managed to inspire sympathy for Adar and his orcs for whom he cares like a father for his children. Adar's orcs are still not at all good people from our point of view. They are as vicious as ever. But Adar points out that they have individual names, hearts and souls, and they care for each other. Adar wants to give them a home where they can live their orcish lives, and where it doens't matter if we regard them as good or bad. While I didn't care for most other characters of ROP, I started to root for Adar and his Uruks, as his orcs prefer to be called. Maybe, there are no good orcs, but if they have a suitable home, it doesn't matter! I was dismayed when I found out that Joseph Mawle will be replaced by another actor in the second season. That's too bad, because he was one of the few highlights in an otherwise very poor Tokien adaptation.
@@seekingabsolution1907, yes, I agree. The story of Adar and his Uruks who probably have taken over Mordor by now, could be a very interesting tale. But I don't think that they will be able to live happily ever after in their new homeland. Sauron, who so far hasn't been reckognized by Adar because of his current disguise as a human, will probably deceive them all and enslave them again. It's a strange twist: I never expected to root for a bunch of orcs and their leader - but I didn't feel a lot of sympathy or interest for the rest of the "ROP" characters.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
What about trolls? In the hobbit i remember one of the trolls showing compassion to bilbo before the other dismisses it which proves that trolls werent totally evil but i’ve never heard the trolls really given much mention, only really the orcs
I think Treebeard said that were created as a mockery to the ents as the orcs was a mockery to the elves. Now given that Melkor cant create life by himself only change things, they must have been made from ents. Simply because he hadnt had anything else to work with! Yvanna created the ents from trees so when they die they return to the ground as all plants do, When trolls die they too return to being "ground" (stone). Simple logic. On that note halforcs are the same as Elrond and his children just on the evil end!
@@akosfarkas5586 yes i recall treebeard saying that trolls are a mockery of ents. I was wondering more about their potential to be good. The trolls in the hobbit dont seem to be evil. They seem to kill and rob to eat, no different from any other predatory animal. One of the trolls from the hobbit suggests letting bilbo go and seems to show sympathy for him
Absolutely love your takes on the world of Middle-Earth, Tolkien was truly such a creative genius. Love how even in your comment sections, people are discussing their different opinions and takes on these truly interesting subject matters, such as "Are There Any Good Orcs?" Thank you for always putting out refreshing content regarding Tolkien's work, and for generating such interesting discussions in the process as well!
Personally we see Orks and Goblins in their lairs or just on the battle field, so it is always hard to tell if a Ork is good, following his clans vows or Evil and just enjoying misdeeds
I realise that this is about Orcs in Tolkien, but Stan Nicholls has written several novels about orcs as the good guys, or at least consciously seeking their own redemption
If we don’t think of Orcs as they are depicted in films (as zombie demons) it makes it easier to think of a potential redemption. Maybe not any of the Orcs who worked directly with Sauron, but perhaps the ones who lived outside of Middle Earth who eventually lost their violent ways.
No. But I am most certainly sure that if there were redeemable orcs,Amazon in all it's infinite wisdom, will introduce us to 1 if not 2. Maybe even female orcs, hell how about a hobbit troll who lives amongst elves, worships Sauron(only the good parts) , and desires to be accepted amongst men.. good gravy, excellent work, as always . Keep up the great work Mellon!
I've come away with my reading of LOTR that the Orcs live within a society that self-perpetuates cruelty; weakness is to be weeded or beaten out, and things like "compassion" are seen as a weakness. It's also likely very competitive, so from an early age everyone learns to first look out for themselves and find a way to rise in social stature, usually at the expense of others. This kind of society would quickly remove any Orc that might otherwise be caring, either through death or through enough emotional torment as to participate in the same behavior.
In the movie they depicted an Uruk who gave Merry some Grog to help heal him during their capture, the Uruk didn't have to do that, the Uruks even protected Merry and Pippin from the Mordor orcs that joined them. So yes, Uruks are good guys
They protected them as they were under orders by Saruman to deliver the Hobbits alive. This is also why they gave them the orc brew (which is closer to performance enhancing drugs than alcohol) and healed their wounds (which healed them but cause a lot of pain and left a permanent scar).
we're literally just three dudes and we do what we want when we want how we want to do it, as long as it's interesting and fun to do. Amazon and bezos both can sponsor deez nuts
Good Video. Good could imply knowing the right thing to do, and having the courage to do it in the face of opposition. Did the Orcs know moral right from wrong? Maybe, but being under ruthless leaders who saw them as little more than fodder for the grinders to overwhelm the side of good gave them little room for choice. And the rule of fear and terror is a strong motivator. Men know moral right from wrong and yet look at the atrocities committed down through time, especially when in a group. Sometimes it is easier to just go along, rather than stand up and attract attention by opposing wrong. Evil will triumph when good men do nothing. (A paraphrase of John Stewart Mill)
Interesting video as always. In my opinion there would only be one way to test this and that would be to capture one, taking it away from it's master, general and kin. Obviously keep it locked up, it could be treated well, fed well, given respect and shown kindness. Would it then warm to it's captures? Would it behave differently after a year, two years, ten years? I suspect it would. Say you had it out with you and the son of it's captors fell over a cliff and was hanging on..would the orc help? Or if he got an arrow to the back would the orc help remove it? I think possibility. Doesn't mean it would be good, just not complete evil.
I think that, for a good orc to exist, it would have to be in a special situation, one that would be exceedingly rare. That situation would be where they are separated from their fellow orcs and other evil beings (and thus not having the evil reinforced) and surrounded by goodly peoples that both choose not to kill the orc and also to show it kindness (within reason). For example, the situation the dwarves found themselves in within Mirkwood, where they were held captive by the elves. Imagine a lone orc in that same position. They can't leave, at least for the moment, but the elves come down and talk kindly to the orc, bring them fine food and drink, and empathize with their existence. Over time, I think it would be possible for the orc to be converted over to the side of good. But, that requires a level of commitment and sacrifice, for an uncertain goal, that is not required from just killing the orc in the first place. A dead orc is certainly no longer a threat. An orc you've spent literally a decade and plenty of resources trying to bring out of the shadow might remain a threat. Further, there's the question of how deeply rooted the evil has become. Would an orc experience pain instead of pleasure from a fine wine, a beautiful song, or even a sympathetic voice, because the twisting and corruption goes all the way to the marrow? It may be more cruel to try and gently pull them away from evil than it is to just cut their throat. Still further is the question of how much orcs truly enjoy their evil existence. You've said, on this channel, that orcs hate Sauron, but fear him more. It's clear they have no love for each other, either. They're a race doomed to live an existence isolated from their fellows, and from the goodly races, by hate and fear. They're doomed to an existence where the moment they cease to be useful to a greater power they fear and hate, that greater power will have no qualms about killing them. Maybe it's more of a kindness to kill an orc than prolong their existence. Lastly, there's the endgame. Unless this process of leading them to the side of good makes them cease being an orc, they'll live the rest of their lives worried that the next elf, dwarf, or man that they meet will make a rash decision and kill them. They're very unlikely to have fellow good orcs whose brotherhood they can enjoy. The good orc will remain deeply alone, and that may turn to bitterness and then to evil.
In short no, they have been twisted into what they are and to end the id think excruciatingly painful process gave into darkness and allowed it into their hearts forevermore to END that pain. Those that resist eventually die in the metamorphosis into orcs. Even if there were the brutality of the orcs would weed them out in mere days as the were used again and again or slain for resisting.
I have understood the Orcs as not evil by nature but rather nurtured into evil due to their culture being so heavily influenced by Morgoth and later Sauron. I like to think with different influences, treated with similar kindness as any race of Men, Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit show to their own kin, could be as good as any other people.
Paul Kocher in Master of Middle Earth (1972), a brilliant commentary, says this: "The Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep are courageous fighters, and even have acheived considerable esptit de corps. Aragorn includes them in his warning against the Fangorn huorns. There is an orc point of view about things which it is possible to understand, even to pity. Never in Tolkien's tale are any orcs redeemed, but it would go against the grain of the whole to dismiss them as ultimately irredeemable".
Orks are like children and Sauron was their father figure, they would follow him without question, you can argue that Orks were bred to be evil, actually that was quite explicit during the war of the ring and the end of the 3rd age, but the main reason for all of that was that the Orks wanted something for their kind, an age of their own, that's why they would follow the likes of Saruman and Sauron who promised such a thing. But at the end of the war and the deaths of Saruman and Sauron the Orks were left without a master and most likely with one single goal left and that was to survive. After the war Orks would need to retreat to hide otherwise they'd be hunted down till extintion, they were left as enemy No. 1 of Middle Earth, they would still need to raid villages to get by and steal food and supplies so they could still reproduce. But they would need to keep a low profile so that they were not hunted and eventually settle in colonies like Goblins do. Orks are not stupid they are smart enough to know where their strong points lie, their strengh they durability and numbers they are smart enough to have generals in their ranks, hell they even have ranks, after finding a life of their own as scavengers, they could offer their services as mercenaries working for warlords and pirates or even feudal lords always working for the highest bider, or doing high risk or menial jobs or even work as assasins or bounty hunters, they could even sell each other as slaves given how petty they are, imagine having an Ork guarding your house or working the fields of a farm. But even after all that like Tolkien said himself eventual all these creatures like Elves Dwarfs Hobbits Wizards and Dragons would fade into legends and so would Orks as well.
always felt sorry for the orcs they were doomed from the start,enslaved and tortured by melkore and later sauron.. in a way they were the biggest victims of the war and sauron's tyrany.
Woah, this came at an interesting time. This question has played on my mind for a while, so much so that I've started to develop my own story around this very idea.. I know this video is addressing 'Tolkiens" Orcs however it seems most mythogly around Orcs paint them as 'cruel (To whom?) 'evil', blood thirsty barbians. But Tolkien left open the door, making one ask themselves the question on 'good and evil' because his Orcs where not a 'free' being but a creation whos Master's 'Will' dominated through their very being.- Sooooo they couldn't hear their own Will, did they have one? **Spoilers for I am legand**- You have someone who sees themselves as the hero trying to save humanity by killing and torturing the new creaters- but to those creates this man is a monster they fear! to them he is 'evil'. There is an amazing video essay on this by Ryan Hollinger on the movie and story and the failed adaption. His video even made me understand Boomers a little and feel sympathy for them. The world they knew (what they felt safe with) was gone or dying and they are scared. They don't know that the world they had was foundationally pretty missed up and harmful to many. What they see now is 'evil' in their eyes. This got me thinking on the nature of Tolkens Orcs, they have never had any concept of 'good'. Most are doing what they think is 'right' - or is right because their masters Will over powers their own? Man in Tolkens world did just as much 'evil' as Orcs and yet Man can find redemption? Many of us are carrying on toxic family patterns, and we don't even know it. Seeing the world through those eyes. that's not all that different from what Orcs had. It never sat well with me that after Sauron was defeated, the Orcs who for all intensive purposes where slaved to Sauron and not free to choose their own morel path, were never given a chance at redemption. To learn what kindness and goodness is, what gentleness and love is. I want to see this. Knowing how vial Man can be and time and time again they get redemption. I want to see it for Orcs and other creators who were inslaved by a greater 'evil'.
I think I read something about 30 years ago, so if I actually did it was on paper, not the interweb, where Gandalf says, in some kind of dialogue with someone, that he was "carefully optimistic" (or something along those lines) to learn that Saruman had takens orcs as servants in Isengard, hoping that they could perhaps be civilized. But I have no idea where this text might have been... any Tolkien nerds here who find this even remotely familiar?
There was Gary the orc, after the war he retired amd opened a lovely boutique with his life partner Phyllis the orc and their kids Simon and Nathdag the Headtaker. Simon ended up getting in with the wrong crowd and ended up in a life of crime, while Nathdag the Headtaker became a librarian.
Hi guys hope you've been having a great day. And this has been a good and interesting topic.and I think there could be good orcs to an extent great video as always guys thanks for the content 👍😃
I think some of the strongest evidence that good orcs exist, even if they are not explicitly shown in the text, is in the War of the Last Alliance. "From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron." This is from the Silmarillion, and it touches on the forces arrayed in the war and particularly the final battle. It states that all living things were divided that day, fighting on both sides, save for the elves. That implies pretty strongly to me that at least some of the orcs, even if not very many, fought on the side of the Last Alliance against Sauron. We don't know what their reasons would be for doing so, of course, but it wouldn't be hard to believe they simply didn't wish to be slaves any more.
I like to imagine there's a group of orcs on an orc bar just getting off a long day of throwing things into a flamming hole for what ever reason, they don't know they just work to support the orc economy. I imagine the conversation goes like this. Orc1: hey mates! This rounds on me, I threw a record amount of flammable things into the fire hole today! Orc2: did you hear about sauruman? He got impaled by another white wizard, my cousin grimgolglub was right there when it happened. Orc 3: wait do we have a new boss? Orc2: no that's the thing, they just left. Those tree things are still there but no one's running that show. Orc1: why can't we just lead ourselves? Orc 3: what you mean? Orc 1: well everytime some dark lord or bright Lord or skeletor shows up they offer a good deal but end up giving us nothing, you'd think we'd have learned by now. Orc2: that's some dangerous thinking there! But maybe it would benefit froglie Jr if orc kind got into infrastructure management or resource extraction for ourselves as a buyable service to the man people Orc 3: yeah....we can have our grog and drink it to, ooooo let's make some signs and get a march going and really stick it to those demigods.
I am pretty sure it is in the Lord of the Rings (in the appendices) that in the battle before the Black Gate near the end of the second age, members of every species were on both sides. Only the Elves stood united against Sauron. That means that the Orcs were not united, so some fought along side the Last Alliance. Were they good? I do not know, but they actively fought against Sauron.
Question of the day: Here my Utopian optimism and cold hard numbers collide! Whenever Orcs are shown, it's always in massive numbers. Even if mere fractions survive the fall of a Dark Lord, we're probably talking thousands or more. The sheer statistical improbability of NONE of them, when free of outside meddling (Morgoth or Sauron), choosing to do good, when they have the choice (as Tolkien, the foremost expert, quite clearly states they do), is frankly evidence enough for me. Yes, good Orcs, at some point, existed.
So with this in mind, why were people so surprised by Galadriel's speech to Adar in ROP? Yes, she is genocidal against the orcs. But is she, in this sense, different from other elves in Tolkien's works? If orcs are irredeemably evil, what is bad about this? That is the question that ROP tries to raise with the conversation between Adar and Galadriel. The orcs, for once, are humanized, even just a tiny bit, by wanting to have a home and by having a sort of familial relationship.
Illuvitar could redeem them, as melchor's discord is part of his grand plan and who knows what his future looks like... though then they would no longer be orcs would they? I don't think that orcs would redeem themselves because they are still corrupted by melchor not just by Sauron and Saruman. So they would still be corrupted after the destruction of the one ring as they weren't created by the ring.
It's possible, but it could only happen after their dark lord was gone. Morgoth, then Sauron. I think they were compelled to serve out of fear for their master and because of a binding power/magic the dark lords had over their servants, but once that dynamic was gone, the actual presence of the dark lord's influence over them, they could have the capacity to do good. If a group of them could conclude, "hey, we' ve been fighting the dwarves and men for our master, but now the master is gone and we don't feel compelled to fight them except in self-defense. Maybe we could make peace? What is there left to fight for?" Based on what we've seen of orc intelligence it's likely most would hate the idea and want to just hide and steal from and harass the free people whenever convenient, but a minority of them would be able to seriously consider the idea. And as their numbers continued to fall and they got more and more hunted, definitely some would reach this conclusion and ask for mercy and peace.
Well, yes. Even if we don't see them in the book, like orc women they exist. There's good and evil of all the races in middle earth save for the elves whom all oppose Sauron. Virtuous trolls, murderous ents, wicked dwarves, and noble wargs. They just kinda get in the way of the story so we never see them. And of course hobbits, some of which were allied to Saruman as he was enslaving their homeland and fought at his side in Bywater.
Honestly I kinda feel for the Moria orcs. Like in Eragon the Urgals that were honestly just living life. The Moria orcs were kinda just minding their own in a way. They didn’t ask to be orcs.
Please do more like this. Love the podcast view and stuff. But I do love the background images and stuff you do have already. However this is just my opinion of the bat but I do like this style of video
IMHO, from what we see during the time of LotR, I'd say no they're aren't, they are all under Sauron's control or will to some extent. As far as I know, it's never explicitly stated, but I've always had the impression that they are kind of pushed to evil a similar way that the ring whispers to the bearer. That they do have their own wills, but are directed, often subconsciously, to do the dark lord's bidding, though in a more abstract way. I would say that after the fall of Sauron, some Orcs could and very likely would, begin to question their existence and their place in the world, and may indeed find one without war and conquest. One major issue would be that if they don't live in isolation, I can't imagine many of the races of Middle Earth believing that they've turned over a new leaf, which could inevitably lead to them falling back into their old ways, if the other races hunted them down when encountered.
I'll preface by saying I'm not the most knowledgeable about Tolkin's works, but I just had an idea about the origin of orcs. My idea is this: it's generally accepted that orcs started as corrupted and tortured elves. And (to my understanding) an elves reproduction is different from man's because producing a child draws mostly from the mother's spirit. What if the main part of the torture Morgoth inflicted was forcing them to breed, which they generally don't like, diminishing their spirits and weakening their wills. Thus creating large amounts of weak willed, and spiritually inferior creatures. Obviously he made them breed, but I wonder if that was the main mechanism by which he implemented his torture. Death by snu-snu!
I feel for the elves who just awoke in middle earth only to be captured and twisted to orcs by Morgoth and yet the Valar just gave Morgoth a second chance but the first orcs are doomed and condemned everywhere.
I think a bigger question is wold a good orc survive long enough to be recognised as good and even if they did would they be recognised as good by human standards as there environment of upbringing would change a lot of the context of being good
In addition to his religion, there are two other ideologies of Tolkien that are important to remember when wondering whether or not good orcs existed: his deep racism and classism. Could there be good orcs? Probably not on any significant scale, as orcs are the dark and low class counterpart to the elves.
Sigh. You asked for it. Here is my considered take on this subject. First, define "good". Is it good to hate your enemies? Morgoth created the orcs in mockery of the Elves, the worshippers of Eru and the Valar. Elves were fair (in both senses) and immortal. Orcs had to be ugly and hate filled and shorter lived, so they could breed quickly and abundantly and come to full growth - for Morgogh needed an army, one of overwhelming numbers, if he would conquer creation. So the entire orc culture, such as it was , had to be built around that self perpetuating hatred. So the entire race was devoted to survival and killing for survival. You killed the Master's enemies and if you survived, you were rewarded. If the Master was away, you killed to survive and you could keep what you got. If the Master wanted loot, you too wanted loot, but you first killed to get the Master what he wanted and then you could get rewarded with food and some loot too. And don't forget, manflesh was high on the menu, so just raiding to rob and run wasn't the point. You ate the farmer and family, then you grabbed valuables and livestock (for later eating), and trashed the farm because that was fun. The hatred that the Uruks and others were bred with was absolute and was directed to all, except the Masters, Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman. The Masters got loyalty and worship, but tempered with profound fear. The Masters ruled with a fear so profound, orcs would slay themselves at any Master's bidding. They were bound to the Great Evil, and when first released by Sauron's utter destruction, they were witless as Tolkien puts it, those ants that lose all motivation when the swollen brooding thing that holds them in thrall is struct down. They ran and hid and suicidally threw themselves into the crevasses and the water and caves with no exit. The hate was gone but the fear overwhelmed them. The fear might fade, but it will take generations for the hatred (and cannibalism) to be muted to something less virulent. Is it good to be loyal? Loyalty had to be instilled; without that, evil oft shall evil mar, and the Master would be dealing with defectors and rebellions every other day. Loyalty to the Master was paramount, but then it was loyalty to the tribe and kind. Hence how Goblin Town functioned; thusly could the Great Goblin exert power over an entire mountain of goblins. And when the Great Goblin fell, he had enough sub-chiefs and leaders to organize a hunt of the Dwarves (and wizard and Hobbit), not to mention the alliance with Bolg and the Moria orcs AND the Wargs, all of whom wished vengeance on those who had harmed them. Is it good to have comradery? Comradery or esprit des corps has been vital for every army ever. At the end of the day, you fight for the guys besides you. Thus, "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!" they shout, when Aragorn wishes to parler "we do not stop for daylight". They are a unified whole, and will carry out the mission, no matter what. Is friendship good? Shagrat and Gorbag are clearly friends; they served together, they have a long history together, they like each other enough to consider desertion and setting up their own enterprise "with a few trusty lads, a place with nice easy loot and no big bosses". They even trust each other enough to at least hear each other out and discuss their doubts about what's really going on and they understand and are able to call out each other's flaws. Although it does not survive the greed over the mithril shirt, it was a real friendship. Is fun good? Again define fun. Orcs delight in the kill, they love to crush and trample green growing things that are not even in their way (the opposite of the Elves' philosophy). They think hurting others is funny and they are always eager for sport. Is invention/creativity good? While independent thought is likely not encouraged, Tolkien himself says that the orcs were likely the inventors of those instruments of war and torture, especially tools that can kill large numbers of people at once. Something that again, mocks the peaceful creativity of the Elves. This list shows that Morgoth et als accomplished their goal of perverting and subverting things and traits that under other circumstances would be admirable. And while I think that the orcs themselves are as doomed as the Dwarves and the Ents and the Elves in the Age of Men, there is one accidental escape hatch that Saruman gave the race...he blended the races of orcs and men (half- orcs, goblin men, and the squint-eyed Southerner). Ruffians from the Shire would make their way to Dunland, and with the loss of manpower from the War, would likely be welcomed. Folks, we are the descendants of the orcs, and the Elves, and hopefully, the Hobbits and the Dwarves. Which is why when the Monsters are due on Maple Street, they look just like us.
The Monsters are Due on Maple St is the most prophetic of Serling's great series, as the Others say, noting the nature of humanity as the watchers prepare to leave as the people on Maple St begin to destroy each other. I believe Serling said someone it was about the "contagion" of paranoia during the cold war, it can be seen in a broader context of being a bitter yet profound indictment on humanity and our tendencies towards violence and Othering. Your comment is not only appreciated, and well written, but thoughtful and the kind of conversations that are worth having. Writing these scripts, I don't think anyone here at TBS intends to make judgments which everyone has to agree with. I think you put your finger on an issue which made Tolkien himself uncomfortable, but as you touch on the moral subjectivity of personal experience, and the way we judge it -- this is why we included Tolkien's opinions as far as could be done to further explain as best as we could. Cheers man, and from one writer to another, I hope your writing is not confined to merely these wonderful responses to our humble efforts at educating and entertaining about a world and fictional universe we all can call home and be therein -- kin, if only by a different mode of thinking. Thank you for being a viewer, and for engaging with the material intelligently and kindly.
The physical and spiritual corruption of the elves and the creation of orcs can be considered as a result of Melkor's spiritual incarnation. Theoretically speaking, it could be argued that the orcs could be corrected if Melkor could apply the reverse of this dark knowledge. I believe this.
without being under the control of sauron or morgoth or even Sauroman it is possible orcs can cease to be evil as it is their will that keeps evil. without an evil lord to serve or control them, they may have lost the "evil" influence over time. they may still remain a bit savage, but "evil" they may not be. does not mean they may not be dangerous. sort of like a Carniverous dinosaur would be.
I’m going to leave this comment and then watch the video to see how it turned out. I believe that there can be good half-orcs and Uruk-hai, but not good true orcs of twisted elves and men under the control of darkness.
Good Orcs hm, I do think that after the destruction of Sauron the remaining Orcs that scattered from the battlegrounds at the black gates and those not present would hold a grudge against Man, Dwarf and Elf for murdering their kin and vice versa. For that I think no Orc willingly ally with any of the other races of Middle Earth other than the ones that already allied themselves under Sauron. But maybe in due time if no other dark peril rises, maybe acceptance can come to be among all races of Middle Earth.
I think Tolkien should have made orcs as evil extensions of Morgoth, as in fairytails, not living beings. They would've been inherently evil and beyond redemption, full stop. Tolkien made it difficult for himself by not allowing Morgoth to create life, but he kind of did anyway with his first songs? Also, Aule was able to create the dwarves in secret. Why couldnt Melkor when he was meant to be more powerful? A really nice but slightly whimsical idea is that all the orcs change back into elves again, and aren't wicked any more I dont think its morally questionable for Gimli and Legolas to slaughter elves because it's self defense. Saruman attacked Rohan and their somewhat grisly competition fits in with Saxon warrior culture I guess. Same with Aragorn - him warning the orcs isnt about whether theyre descended from elves or not, it's about his own conduct as a leader, following a strict moral code. Thats why Aragorn in the movie cutting off The Mouth of Sauron's head is so wrong. It's something the orcs would do, but never Aragorn.
Good and Evil is 100% perspective based. To their enemies Orcs are Evil.. to another of their own tribe, one could be seen as "good" if they actively care for them in someway (such as sharing of food and goods, or giving a weapon/tool that's not needed by its original owner). They are portrayed in many tales as being willing to tear each other apart if greed or need came into it and these were the qualities bred into them, but they wouldn't tribe together without some sort of shared goal or reason. With that shared goal in mind, the failure of the tribe would bring more hardships to them if they couldn't offer soldiers to what ever higher power ruled over them, weather that's another orc tribe or Sauron himself. An orc could gain power in these tribes through their own strength, but the most powerful leaders would be strong and smart. Eventually commanding his people to do things that will help them rather then destroy them mindlessly. To that end the leader spoken of in your tale of the 3 groups that followed post Moria must have seen their leader as a "good" leader if they were willing to get revenge (you might want to prove you are stronger then the people who killed your leader to gain his position but the orc way would had always been to just fight for power directly so this seems like a reach in this situation). He was evil to the fellowship (the goal was to kill them after all) but in their own social circle where he may have even been revered and seen as a good leader. Keep in mind most medal of honor recipients are considered heroes and some of the greatest of "good" men simply for killing the enemy at a crucial moment in selfless acts(some were by self sacrifice/bravery in saving lives but these are far rarer).. Those on the opposite side of the battle may see them as the greatest evil for killing so many friends. Those contradictions are present everywhere though, the fact most religions saying "killing is wrong unless they read that other book" is a prime example. Even having very slight differences in subsects of religion is enough to ignore that rule. Even a man that has saved hundreds of lives may be hated and seen as evil by some for letting 1 person die in the process. Those hundreds see a good person, the loved one of the person lost may see an evil person. After witnessing war I feel like this is the point Tolkien is trying to get across... War is very messy and is technically the greatest evil as no ones rights are respected by the other side... fighting to stop a war can be good if it means your rights are being protected, but you are actively repressing someone else's rights.. and so we fall down the rabbit hole of morality. In short Orcs are good... though that doesn't mean we can be friends.
i think goblins and orcs (two different things, not the same with different name ... ) can be like other societies if elfs have generally "good: folk and some rotten apples .... we look at the good in general, and still look for the good in the noldor and dark elf if goblins and orcs are looked at only as opposite and evil, we choose not to see the good inside, which does not mean they can not be good, they never been given the time to see the good within ... i think in giving time for goblins and orcs to develop societies without oversight of rulers like morgoth and sauron they would civilize i personally think that the true evil is not seeing the good wanting to see the enemy and not the relative, all stems from the creation song, and if not meant by iluvatar to be, they would not be, no one is saying the numenorians are evil colonialists that trash the land for wood and power ... from orcs and dunlandings that would be the case ... the view one has on the world should be neutral, picking a side will blind you to see possible options, i think tolkien was having a hard deal with black and white good and evil story writing and redemption in life or death . these days we are maybe a little more free to displace our own views and pick neutrality, where in a story writing perspective that is harder .... making goblins and orcs EVIL by nature, is then a failure of iluvatar, for letting them be possible, and we know what iluvatars take was on it, he mocked melkor when he sang out of tune .... so in that i think redemption and civilized life can be there, but are humans willing to allow it ? those who do not want to allow it are probably more evil than the goblins and orcs for they seek an enemy and therefor not peace. is there then redemption for those humans ? or humanity ? because that is the same generalization and i know no one wants to be generalized and marginalized... therefor goblins and orcs can be and should be seen as possible to redeem them self if given time and space to develop in peace. good orcs or good goblins, are those who do not want to follow the evil leaders so moria goblins would be close, or the orcs that desired a life without sauron being so biased and blinded by "good" of mankind and elf kind is just stupid moria goblins had a good life in their own world sure they took it from the dwarfs but then again, did not the man of the west take middle earth over ? did the noldor not come to middle earth and further the strive ? good and evil are based on where you stand and from which side you look. elfs humans sauron saruman they all wanted power over others .... regardless of motive, and power over others is the root of all evil not being able to allow the other to live free is evil breaking the golden rule is evil and from a goblin or orc or even troll view, there are many evils out there that they did not create, but were thrown into take the trolls that lived off the land, diet ? human or dwarf or hobbit by design does their design make their personalities evil ? or are they only evil because their design requires them to see you as food ? it still does not make them evil, just hungry. if they are evil then elfs and man are evil too, for they want to kill without even needing to feed on what they kill they take because of their inflated sense of good and evil so biased and blinded remember it was the numenorians who came back to middle earth to CLAIM the land so if the moria goblins are evil for having claimed moria, then sure the numenorians are evil for claiming middle earth ... use the same measuring stick please
Evildoers must be stopped, and if they will not yield of their own volition: slain. I do not think it is appropriate to argue that the heroes are morally dubious just because their enemies are not completely and utterly evil. The heroes, I will point out, do not ever attack orcs who are not explicitly threatening their lives. If there is a band of not-totally-evil orcs somewhere, we would not know because those orcs are not threatening the heroes. In all likelihood there probably is, just given how rowdy and chaotic orcs tend to be. But while Morgoth and then Sauron were around, the vast majority of all orcs were under their direct control: and thus had little chance of choosing to do anything besides follow orders or get killed by their comrades. The Moria orcs are a possible exception, since they were so cut off and it doesn't seem like the balrog ever tried to control them. The Uruk-hai never really got the chance to develop any rebellion against Saruman. Also, I think the actual body count for Aragorn is about 50% orcs and 50% Men, since the Battle of the Pelennor Fields mostly involved Sauron's Mannish allies. You're not supposed to see the killing of Haradrim or Corsairs or Men of Rhûn as morally dubious either. They are fascists, fighting for Sauron. Any good members of those cultures aren't on the field. You can't be a good person and also justify killing on behalf of a fascist regime. The only way you can be a good person if your country's military has gone fascist is to desert or dodge recruitment. Anyone choosing to be on that battlefield is not a good person. They might not be thoroughly evil, but in this exact moment they are evildoers. If orcs are redeemed, they cease to be orcs. They are now whatever it was they started out as. They were made into orcs, so their orcishness can be shed. It isn't who they are on a deep level. You forgot to mention here that if orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then the whole morality question becomes rather different: since death for an Elf is not the end of their ability to take action in the world. Death is of course still a serious thing for an Elf, and we certainly see Elves swear vengeance (the Sons of Finwë), but it is not the end. So isn't killing an orc giving them a chance to accept the summons of Mandos, and actually seek redemption? In any case, their death does not represent the total loss of the chance to redeem themselves.
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In short, yes, and there were evil Dwarfs.
As for someone who is studying theology. Orc are supposed to mirror Nephilim ancestors, like Anakin and Rephaim. In Ancient Israelite and the 2nd Temple world view, they believed once they died, their spirits became Demons/Bastard Spirits. They are not God's creation, they are neither Men or Spirit Beings. They are mix. For that reason, they have no redemption.
The unknown Saron art is done by Gerwell on Deviantart
There were lots of good orcs. For instance, at Helmsdeep Legolas made 41 good orcs and Gimli made 42.
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣👍
You take your like. Well earned!
That makes me wonder though, do orcs smell worse alive or dead?
@@MysteriumArcanum
Dead, the smell at least goes away after a while
Lol o man good one
I seem to remember a letter in which Tolkien answers this very question, but I haven't been able to find it yet. In the letter he says that orcs were naturally evil, but not irredeemably evil, and could choose to be good. I always felt that orcs were deeper than most people realized. While on cursory glance, they just look like the faceless evil, but they deserve more pity than scorn. They are as much victims of Melkor and Sauron as anyone, if not more so. I remember a quote: "And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar." I'd like to think that, free from Sauron, they'd be able to make some sort of peace with men, elves and dwarves.
I'm not sure I agree there could ever be peace with the orcs. Without Sauron they wouldn't have an immediate leader, but Melkor is a part of their very nature. They are never really free of him as long as they exist.
Tolkien even talked about how the evil Morgoth poured into the world is analogous to the power and evil that Sauron poured into his ring. He put his evil and corruption into the very foundations of nature itself. Not just some token or totem that could be destroyed or made pure again. The world is never truly free of Morgoth's malice and evil influence, even if he isn't an active force in it any longer.
Sadly I think the orcs are doomed to be evil by nature for good. Like you mentioned, perhaps they could choose to do good deeds here and there, but I don't think there would ever be peace between them and the other Children of Illuvatar.
I imagine they’d be like Gollum when Frodo nearly redeemed him. Or perhaps they would be like gnomes, though the idea someone mentioned of them reverting back to Elves would be really touching.
Or maybe once free of the power that corrupted them, they would revert back to what they were before they were corrupted.
Thus "good" orcs would become uncorrupted elves or men, but could not exist as such.
For me an Orc might appear to do something good but ultimately it will be to aid him or his master
Well they seem to go extinct by the conclusion and maybe earlier than the dwarves and elves in middle earth, so my best hope is that Aragorn could differentiate the orcs that were still being a threat and those who want to be left alone as they dwindled.
I find it genuenly interesting that even Tolkien himself changed his mind on the Orcs.
Going from them being wholly evil, to being uncomftorable with the idea of an entire race being irredeemable.
Ultimately settling that Orcs *naturally lean* towards evil, but have the ability to resist their evil nature and change.
Shadow of Mordor & Shadow of War, while playing fast and loose with the lore, did a great job with this. They gave the Orcs distinct personalities and ,while most are vile to say the least, there are some who are loyal, brave and/or friendly even. There's a reason Ratbag is considered a fan favorite.
He sucks so badly but he is very funny.
Doesn't Ratbag backstab you in the second game or was that another Ork?
@@FifinatorKlon that was bruz, an olog hai captain.
Don't forget Forthog Orc Slayer who in some way might be an Orc, but doesn't looks like an Orc which can be a redeemed Uruk who Secretly helps the Player.
I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien wanting Frodo and Sam to meet a tribe of good orcs as they crossed Mordor. But he had to chop it from the story so that the story wouldn't ramble.
He had to cut this plot point for time, but he made sure to keep a 5 page pen/song about a tree! Lol gotta love Tolkien!
@@drm726 And whole pages of filler of some funny random man in the forest who is so powerful to treat the One Ring as a toy only to never see him again after that. To top it off, he refuses to elaborate who or what the hell he is lol
And yet he kept in the tangents about a tree and the history of Helm’s Deep, and the part where after Sauron gets defeated Saruman and Grima just butt in at the last second and steal his thunder.
@@badpiggies988 Haha true 🤣 Though I guess those moments lent something to the plot in the end.
There was the scout who inadvertently saved Frodo and Sam in Mordor. He refused a direct order, gave a brief orcy speech about about how the war is already lost, shot his boss in the neck with an arrow, and then ran away. All while the hobbits lay just yards from him.
Was that in the book or was that part of your good orc ideas? Either way I dig it..😁😁
@@machinegunftw86 in the books. In either The Land of Shadow, or Mount Doom. Either way it was after Cirith Ungol.
@@iron-thorne I dig it... I myself got so much good orc story ideas........especially on weed...
@@iron-thorne I can confirm this is in the books as they are crossing Gorgoroth.
First of all I just love to see when you guys are talking about how religion and catholic faith is connected to Tolkien's works, just love to hear that! I know that he is not cannon but I just love Ratbag so he is some kind of 'good' orc...
But from cannon one's I always loved commander of the Uruk Hai, Ugluk, he never felt as a villian to me! He was just an Uruk 'soldier' that was doing his task just as anyother military commander would do, so for me he was always some kind of badass!
James as always great and interesting video and this clickbate is one of the best ever!
Thank you 😂
Ugluk is a fantastic character... my most recent read through was after listening to Dan Carlin's excellent ww1 podcast series. Ugluk really just comes off as a deeply damaged professional killer, disillusioned at heart, but a leader among people who feel the same way. As an officer and gentleman and quite young man at the time of his service, tolkein would have taken a very deep impression from the brutal professionalism of people older and more in combat than he, and he would be able to understand the commonality of people like that on both sides.
Historically, Orcs and Catholics are much alike...
“In the end, the only good goblins are the ones who never come out of their holes.''
Nice reference
I think the Shadow of Mordor/War series explored this idea well in that you can find Orcs that are extremely loyal, brave, friendly even.
Now as for Tolkien's writing about good orcs? Hmm, I don't know if I could fully say good, but I could say something like chaotic neutral, like we don't know what kind of orcs exist in the east or in the south. Or what became of those bands who survive after the fall of Sauron and the wars after Aragorn becomes king.
I actually really enjoy these games. Not only gameplaywise, but also all the interactions with the orcs and their personality. Although you can't take the story as lore it's still quite interesting.
@@HeadhunterKev96 plus Orc Bards who slay at the Lute, did Tolkien ever write an Orc Bard who started a song with Tra la la? Those guys were the best to run into.
there is no reason to assume the orcs of the east and south are any different than those we know. Tolkien described them as evil, being chaotic neutral does not make them less so. after Sauron's defeat the only difference is that they start serving themselves and their sick nature instead of someone else.
@@HeadhunterKev96 Both of them are absolutely incredible games. Severely underrated.
Didn't Tolkien even say that Orcs did fight alongside the Free Peoples as much as men and even rogue elves fought alongside Sauron?
Although not present in the text there probably are good orcs but they had to hide their goodness from their fellow orcs to avoid getting killed.
Mmm that a good point. If I where an orc I'd hide my goodness from orc public to avoid death.😅😅
the concept of good orcs did not exist in Tolkien's time. it came into fantasy after him. so no.
As you said, Orcs could be redeemed, but I tend to think they would somehow cease to be Orcs through that process.
Exactly
Indeed
👍
So there is hope to revert back to being elves?
@@adriananic8258 Possibly, somehow.
I like to think that, has Tolkien lived longer, he might have found a way to tell a story about a good Orc.
My personal head-canon is that the Blue Wizards were sent as missionaries primarily to the Orcs instead of to Elves or Men, and that they helped establish civilizations of good Orcs far to the east of Mordor or even Rhun.
Well we've got to do something with all the characters and story threads Tolkien didn't feel like elaborating on.
Oh! I like that idea! Never thought of it.
I think you've neglected to point out the moments and mentions in the Lord of the Rings that humanise orcs through their relatable dialogue (gossiping and complaining about their bosses), and how some orcs are forced to take part in this war against their will and how they're basically all (or for the most part) slaves to Sauron's will through mind control and fear. This is repeatedly pointed out in the book, so even before extrapolating speculation from letters or analysing the orcs' behaviour, we know just from the narration that there is a possibility of orcs being or becoming good.
I remember hearing he wanted sam and frodo to come across a group of orcs trying to get away from mordor but couldn't figure out were to put them in
I’d love a story (in any format, literature, film, role playing game) about a group of orcs following the War of the Ring, just trying to find a place in the world now that they’re out from under the boot of a Dark Lord, but the millennia of conflict with the other races presents stigma and persecution that must be overcome. Mayhaps they could manage to get an audience with King Elessar to make their case to him, and while he’s sympathetic he still needs to consider how his subjects would react. He’d have revolts from Osgiliath to Fornost if he just unconditionally pardoned them, but executing those seeking mercy goes against his convictions.
😅 And maybe if GRRM had the answer to what happened to the orcs, he’d stop thinking about it and finish Winds of Winter! 😂
This would have been a better show than Rings of Power
@@alexhurlbut agreed 👍
That's a really interesting idea.
yes and yes
Ja but think of how expensive the makeup would be. I’d love it! As long as none of them look as ugly as the Harvey Weinstein ork
I believe there was mention of them being evil but not irredeemably evil. They weren’t created so much as they were twisted, tortured and disfigured. Pain, anguish and evil is all they know, as inseparable from life as their servitude. So when you take away the master they serve, what’s left for them? I think deep down there is still some glimmer all children of Iluvatar bear
I absolutely love this, thank you so much for being objective. I remember in a ROP livestream, you both had seemed pretty against the idea of a redeemable orc, so I was so pleasantly surprised that you didn't just brush this question aside and actually found quotes that could be the opposite as well. Thank you!
Of course! These videos are all about what Tolkien wrote, if anything is an opinion we always try to make that clear, and we try to never let our opinions effect things that are written! It’s very gratifying to see people see that 😁 you members of the Brohirrim rule!!
I really enjoyed this video.Loved the style keep doing them this way very easy to follow and learn from.
Actually I'm a big fan of vfx, the effects that you introduced in the Shotfx is awesome 😁
To me, my thought of the orca are akin to the borg, where they are more of a collective organism. Their animal instincts are more pronounced and their “humanity” is subdued. Therefore they act as a force for terror, but individually, they have little power or intention. Perhaps individuals could be redeemed if they are separated from the collective.
I believe The Professor would agree with this!
No, I don't think that sounds right, they argue too much with each other and Sauron created a Conlang to help give them a sense eof collective identity then whipped them up into a frenzied ideology of racial supremacy to get them to fight his enemies, if they didn't have much will or intention of their own he wouldn't have needed to do that I think.
I'd say that there probably were a number of "good" orcs, although I doubt that there would ever be so many as to leave a legacy beyond their lifetime, except for whatever crafts they might make. After all, Tolkien stated that orcs were the innovators of war, inventors of siegecraft and its engines, and the mere construction of a fortress like the Hornburg would require a greater familiarity with such engines as to resist them than would be needed to wield them. So the Rohirrim either A: captured and brutally interrogated/tortured a number of orcs to learn the secrets of their engines and how to resist them, B: captured, reverse-engineered, and became experts in the use of siege engines, or C: they were able to secure the aid of a particularly clever orc, one who would realise that allying with Rohan would allow him to live a life of comfort without fear of death in exchange for teaching them how siege engines work, and maybe getting to spend the rest of his days thinking up all manner of new engines for fun.
I do suppose that A is possible,but it would make Rohan evil. B isn't _impossible,_ but I doubt the horsemen of Rohan would have the patience for engineering and siegecraft to that level. C just seems most likely, that there would be at least one orc with the cleverness to design good weapons and the intelligence to realise he'd be better rewarded working for a master that wouldn't throw him into the fire at their pleasure.
EDIT: recently re-read Tolkien and learned/relearned that the Hornburg was built by Gondorians, not the Rohirrim. The overall point about orcs being the inventors of siege engines still stands, but the Men of the West are well known as makers of good weapons and ships of war, so it may have just been them mastering captured siege engines and perfecting the designs and defences.
I always felt that Tolkien expressed his own thoughts in a way that makes it pretty clear that there were no ‘good’ orcs at the time of the events of middle earth but it was perfectly plausible that they, along with everything else deemed ‘evil’ in arda, could be redeemable if they wanted to be.
Some orcs likely hated Sauron and melkor and only served them out of fear.
So it’s a yes really, there COULD be good orcs, just as there were bad elves, dwarves, and men
Some? Make that the most. There is however large difference in not serving dark lord and being good. Two orcs in Cirith Ungol talk pretty openly about deserting and live off of small time raiding just like "the good old days".
Orcs were products of millenia of eugenics, social and psychological engineering not to mention good old fashioned magic with a goal being to remove any "good" left in them and leave them open to will of the dark lords (Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman). I sincerly doubt that any "good" orc had lived long enough to reach adulthood even in the independent orc communities as the orc culture was violent and treacherous even there.
That being said IMHO Orcs could be redeemed, but in the process they would cease to be the orcs.
@@Artanis99 I feel ya, kinda agree. But I personally feel it’s plausible to imagine one orc, at least one, ditching all his shit and moving to the shire to live happily ever after among the hobbits…. It’s fukn far fetched I know. If we could ask Tolkien directly we’d probably just get a “perhaps so” 🤣
@@Artanis99 I always thought of them being of the dark lords will, meant they just wanted whatever their particular master wanted.
It just cracks me up when people think of them as a drone. Like the dwarves were before eru gave them life
@@Rhyno9750 I think the closest you'd get is someone like Zak of the Salvatore's Drizzt Trilogy. He was one of the few drow that were not evil, but he was still trapped by their culture and result was bitter, cynical and broken man whose only joy in life was killing other drow (especially priestesses of Lloth).
There were orcs who hated Sauron or didn't care about him at all (like goblins in Misty Mountains who basically created their independent enclave ruled by the Great Goblin; or Uruk-hai who served only Saruman and were more than eager to kill "Sauron's orcs"), so from a certain point of view such orcs were "good" (if you consider "good" to be "against Sauron and his rule"). There certainly were orcs holding values and virtues like honour, loyality, brotherhood, freedom - which were common among Men, Elves and Dwarves. So some orcs (not all of them) were not so much different from "good" races. I hope that after the War many of them found a new way of living, fulfilling their redemption
Imagine a scenario where Aragorn or another ranger of the north travels with a select group of battle-hardened companions, all of them kinless, one of whom happens to be an orc who doesn't consider himself an orc or least is a mercenary with connections to no one, a culture where each lives by his sword and it just doesn't matter to them. Aragorn's service to Rivendell earns him an audience with Elrond bringing a couple of his compadres with him, and as a reward for his deeds the orc is eventually considered an elf.
I would imagine, if you somehow could capture an Orc baby and it was raised by good men or elves, then it would learn morality, and be good in a way..
This is how you get the grinch(Jim carry version).
You would end up Thrall, Warchief of the Horde!
It's not impossible to imagine the Orcs being honorable and even good. But they are still creatures designed to hate the light and thrive in darkness. I'd imagine there were moments in Middle-Earth that Orcs could be bargained with or even make friends with. But it would be extremely rare and often risky.
I have wrestled with the orc problem for a long time. And I have to say that the orcs are one element of Tolkien's world which I never liked! I could have done without them. They seem to be mostly cannon fodder for the heroes who don't have to feel guilty when they kill sentient humanoid creatures! Elves, dwarves, humans and hobbits agree that there are no good orcs and therefore it's perfectly ok for them to kill as many orcs as possible! In Tolkien's world there is no room for good orcs - because if there would be a single good orc, the whole system would collapse and the heroes could not continue to go on killing sprees and improve Middle Earth by getting rid of as many orcs as possible, since they are regarded as vermin.
When Tolkien got older and more mature, he started to wrestle with his dark brain children, and he conceded that, while there might not be any good orcs, they could still be redeemable - although not in the eyes of their fellow humanoid creatures in Tolkien's world, but in the eyes of Eru Illuvatar.
I really disliked Amazon's Rings Of Power - but there was one plotline which really touched me: the story of Adar and his Uruks. Adar turns out to be an ancient former elf who has been captured together with other elves by Morgoth, who tortured and corrupted them until there wasn't much elvishness left in them - and they became the first generation of proto-orcs. Tolkien has wrestled throughout his life with various narratives of how the orcs have been created, and the idea that the first orcs were tortured elves, is the most well known version, and Amazon's Adar has been inspired by that narrative. Joseph Mawle is a great actor and he managed to inspire sympathy for Adar and his orcs for whom he cares like a father for his children. Adar's orcs are still not at all good people from our point of view. They are as vicious as ever. But Adar points out that they have individual names, hearts and souls, and they care for each other. Adar wants to give them a home where they can live their orcish lives, and where it doens't matter if we regard them as good or bad. While I didn't care for most other characters of ROP, I started to root for Adar and his Uruks, as his orcs prefer to be called. Maybe, there are no good orcs, but if they have a suitable home, it doesn't matter!
I was dismayed when I found out that Joseph Mawle will be replaced by another actor in the second season. That's too bad, because he was one of the few highlights in an otherwise very poor Tokien adaptation.
It was an interesting idea that looked to building up to a tragic tale of how they were all enslaved again by Sauron.
@@seekingabsolution1907, yes, I agree. The story of Adar and his Uruks who probably have taken over Mordor by now, could be a very interesting tale. But I don't think that they will be able to live happily ever after in their new homeland. Sauron, who so far hasn't been reckognized by Adar because of his current disguise as a human, will probably deceive them all and enslave them again.
It's a strange twist: I never expected to root for a bunch of orcs and their leader - but I didn't feel a lot of sympathy or interest for the rest of the "ROP" characters.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
You should make a video about BFME: Reforged so they will gain more fans and keep working on their project.
What about trolls? In the hobbit i remember one of the trolls showing compassion to bilbo before the other dismisses it which proves that trolls werent totally evil but i’ve never heard the trolls really given much mention, only really the orcs
I think Treebeard said that were created as a mockery to the ents as the orcs was a mockery to the elves. Now given that Melkor cant create life by himself only change things, they must have been made from ents. Simply because he hadnt had anything else to work with! Yvanna created the ents from trees so when they die they return to the ground as all plants do, When trolls die they too return to being "ground" (stone). Simple logic. On that note halforcs are the same as Elrond and his children just on the evil end!
@@akosfarkas5586 yes i recall treebeard saying that trolls are a mockery of ents. I was wondering more about their potential to be good. The trolls in the hobbit dont seem to be evil. They seem to kill and rob to eat, no different from any other predatory animal. One of the trolls from the hobbit suggests letting bilbo go and seems to show sympathy for him
Absolutely love your takes on the world of Middle-Earth, Tolkien was truly such a creative genius. Love how even in your comment sections, people are discussing their different opinions and takes on these truly interesting subject matters, such as "Are There Any Good Orcs?" Thank you for always putting out refreshing content regarding Tolkien's work, and for generating such interesting discussions in the process as well!
Personally we see Orks and Goblins in their lairs or just on the battle field, so it is always hard to tell if a Ork is good, following his clans vows or Evil and just enjoying misdeeds
I realise that this is about Orcs in Tolkien, but Stan Nicholls has written several novels about orcs as the good guys, or at least consciously seeking their own redemption
If we don’t think of Orcs as they are depicted in films (as zombie demons) it makes it easier to think of a potential redemption. Maybe not any of the Orcs who worked directly with Sauron, but perhaps the ones who lived outside of Middle Earth who eventually lost their violent ways.
Good evening, this is a very interesting topic. Great job 👍 guys!
Thank you!
Imagine if Gandalf the white was able to free the orcs from morthgoth and sauron's hold over them
Not having a yes or no answer allows us to ask questions and therefore learn more about ourselves
No. But I am most certainly sure that if there were redeemable orcs,Amazon in all it's infinite wisdom, will introduce us to 1 if not 2. Maybe even female orcs, hell how about a hobbit troll who lives amongst elves, worships Sauron(only the good parts) , and desires to be accepted amongst men.. good gravy, excellent work, as always . Keep up the great work Mellon!
You forgot the transexual vegan orcs
I've come away with my reading of LOTR that the Orcs live within a society that self-perpetuates cruelty; weakness is to be weeded or beaten out, and things like "compassion" are seen as a weakness. It's also likely very competitive, so from an early age everyone learns to first look out for themselves and find a way to rise in social stature, usually at the expense of others.
This kind of society would quickly remove any Orc that might otherwise be caring, either through death or through enough emotional torment as to participate in the same behavior.
Thank you for this content
Thank you for watching 😁
In the movie they depicted an Uruk who gave Merry some Grog to help heal him during their capture, the Uruk didn't have to do that, the Uruks even protected Merry and Pippin from the Mordor orcs that joined them.
So yes, Uruks are good guys
They protected them as they were under orders by Saruman to deliver the Hobbits alive. This is also why they gave them the orc brew (which is closer to performance enhancing drugs than alcohol) and healed their wounds (which healed them but cause a lot of pain and left a permanent scar).
@@wuguxiandi9413 it was a joke
@@the98themperoroftheholybri33 hard to tell on the internet these days.
Not necessarily, I think he may have just been preserving the life of someone he was ordered to deliver alive.
Sounds like an Amazon sponsored Title...
we're literally just three dudes and we do what we want when we want how we want to do it, as long as it's interesting and fun to do. Amazon and bezos both can sponsor deez nuts
Good Video. Good could imply knowing the right thing to do, and having the courage to do it in the face of opposition. Did the Orcs know moral right from wrong? Maybe, but being under ruthless leaders who saw them as little more than fodder for the grinders to overwhelm the side of good gave them little room for choice. And the rule of fear and terror is a strong motivator. Men know moral right from wrong and yet look at the atrocities committed down through time, especially when in a group. Sometimes it is easier to just go along, rather than stand up and attract attention by opposing wrong. Evil will triumph when good men do nothing. (A paraphrase of John Stewart Mill)
This video was excellent, you guys keep surprising me tbh.
Thank you very much! We have a good hardworking team always trying to improve on each video 💪
A good orc is one who fights for it's people and slays many men, elves and dwarves.
Interesting video as always. In my opinion there would only be one way to test this and that would be to capture one, taking it away from it's master, general and kin. Obviously keep it locked up, it could be treated well, fed well, given respect and shown kindness. Would it then warm to it's captures? Would it behave differently after a year, two years, ten years? I suspect it would. Say you had it out with you and the son of it's captors fell over a cliff and was hanging on..would the orc help? Or if he got an arrow to the back would the orc help remove it? I think possibility. Doesn't mean it would be good, just not complete evil.
I think that, for a good orc to exist, it would have to be in a special situation, one that would be exceedingly rare. That situation would be where they are separated from their fellow orcs and other evil beings (and thus not having the evil reinforced) and surrounded by goodly peoples that both choose not to kill the orc and also to show it kindness (within reason).
For example, the situation the dwarves found themselves in within Mirkwood, where they were held captive by the elves. Imagine a lone orc in that same position. They can't leave, at least for the moment, but the elves come down and talk kindly to the orc, bring them fine food and drink, and empathize with their existence. Over time, I think it would be possible for the orc to be converted over to the side of good.
But, that requires a level of commitment and sacrifice, for an uncertain goal, that is not required from just killing the orc in the first place. A dead orc is certainly no longer a threat. An orc you've spent literally a decade and plenty of resources trying to bring out of the shadow might remain a threat.
Further, there's the question of how deeply rooted the evil has become. Would an orc experience pain instead of pleasure from a fine wine, a beautiful song, or even a sympathetic voice, because the twisting and corruption goes all the way to the marrow? It may be more cruel to try and gently pull them away from evil than it is to just cut their throat.
Still further is the question of how much orcs truly enjoy their evil existence. You've said, on this channel, that orcs hate Sauron, but fear him more. It's clear they have no love for each other, either. They're a race doomed to live an existence isolated from their fellows, and from the goodly races, by hate and fear. They're doomed to an existence where the moment they cease to be useful to a greater power they fear and hate, that greater power will have no qualms about killing them. Maybe it's more of a kindness to kill an orc than prolong their existence.
Lastly, there's the endgame. Unless this process of leading them to the side of good makes them cease being an orc, they'll live the rest of their lives worried that the next elf, dwarf, or man that they meet will make a rash decision and kill them. They're very unlikely to have fellow good orcs whose brotherhood they can enjoy. The good orc will remain deeply alone, and that may turn to bitterness and then to evil.
In short no, they have been twisted into what they are and to end the id think excruciatingly painful process gave into darkness and allowed it into their hearts forevermore to END that pain. Those that resist eventually die in the metamorphosis into orcs. Even if there were the brutality of the orcs would weed them out in mere days as the were used again and again or slain for resisting.
I have understood the Orcs as not evil by nature but rather nurtured into evil due to their culture being so heavily influenced by Morgoth and later Sauron.
I like to think with different influences, treated with similar kindness as any race of Men, Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit show to their own kin, could be as good as any other people.
Paul Kocher in Master of Middle Earth (1972), a brilliant commentary, says this: "The Uruk-hai at Helm's Deep are courageous fighters, and even have acheived considerable esptit de corps. Aragorn includes them in his warning against the Fangorn huorns. There is an orc point of view about things which it is possible to understand, even to pity. Never in Tolkien's tale are any orcs redeemed, but it would go against the grain of the whole to dismiss them as ultimately irredeemable".
Orks are like children and Sauron was their father figure, they would follow him without question, you can argue that Orks were bred to be evil, actually that was quite explicit during the war of the ring and the end of the 3rd age, but the main reason for all of that was that the Orks wanted something for their kind, an age of their own, that's why they would follow the likes of Saruman and Sauron who promised such a thing.
But at the end of the war and the deaths of Saruman and Sauron the Orks were left without a master and most likely with one single goal left and that was to survive.
After the war Orks would need to retreat to hide otherwise they'd be hunted down till extintion, they were left as enemy No. 1 of Middle Earth, they would still need to raid villages to get by and steal food and supplies so they could still reproduce. But they would need to keep a low profile so that they were not hunted and eventually settle in colonies like Goblins do.
Orks are not stupid they are smart enough to know where their strong points lie, their strengh they durability and numbers they are smart enough to have generals in their ranks, hell they even have ranks, after finding a life of their own as scavengers, they could offer their services as mercenaries working for warlords and pirates or even feudal lords always working for the highest bider, or doing high risk or menial jobs or even work as assasins or bounty hunters, they could even sell each other as slaves given how petty they are, imagine having an Ork guarding your house or working the fields of a farm.
But even after all that like Tolkien said himself eventual all these creatures like Elves Dwarfs Hobbits Wizards and Dragons would fade into legends and so would Orks as well.
Absolutely love that you mentioned the gospel and Tolkien's belief in Christ.
always felt sorry for the orcs they were doomed from the start,enslaved and tortured by melkore and later sauron..
in a way they were the biggest victims of the war and sauron's tyrany.
Woah, this came at an interesting time. This question has played on my mind for a while, so much so that I've started to develop my own story around this very idea.. I know this video is addressing 'Tolkiens" Orcs however it seems most mythogly around Orcs paint them as 'cruel (To whom?) 'evil', blood thirsty barbians.
But Tolkien left open the door, making one ask themselves the question on 'good and evil' because his Orcs where not a 'free' being but a creation whos Master's 'Will' dominated through their very being.- Sooooo they couldn't hear their own Will, did they have one?
**Spoilers for I am legand**- You have someone who sees themselves as the hero trying to save humanity by killing and torturing the new creaters- but to those creates this man is a monster they fear! to them he is 'evil'. There is an amazing video essay on this by Ryan Hollinger on the movie and story and the failed adaption. His video even made me understand Boomers a little and feel sympathy for them. The world they knew (what they felt safe with) was gone or dying and they are scared. They don't know that the world they had was foundationally pretty missed up and harmful to many. What they see now is 'evil' in their eyes. This got me thinking on the nature of Tolkens Orcs, they have never had any concept of 'good'. Most are doing what they think is 'right' - or is right because their masters Will over powers their own?
Man in Tolkens world did just as much 'evil' as Orcs and yet Man can find redemption?
Many of us are carrying on toxic family patterns, and we don't even know it. Seeing the world through those eyes. that's not all that different from what Orcs had.
It never sat well with me that after Sauron was defeated, the Orcs who for all intensive purposes where slaved to Sauron and not free to choose their own morel path, were never given a chance at redemption. To learn what kindness and goodness is, what gentleness and love is. I want to see this. Knowing how vial Man can be and time and time again they get redemption. I want to see it for Orcs and other creators who were inslaved by a greater 'evil'.
I never wondered this but it is a very good question.
Would be a fun character arc to watch.
Amazing work brother wow
But it was also said that during the Last Alliance, all races were present on both sides, except for the Elves....................
oh great now i have to spend a weekend with the pain monster :P
excellent insight!!
Well, what about Trolls?
I think I read something about 30 years ago, so if I actually did it was on paper, not the interweb, where Gandalf says, in some kind of dialogue with someone, that he was "carefully optimistic" (or something along those lines) to learn that Saruman had takens orcs as servants in Isengard, hoping that they could perhaps be civilized. But I have no idea where this text might have been... any Tolkien nerds here who find this even remotely familiar?
There was Gary the orc, after the war he retired amd opened a lovely boutique with his life partner Phyllis the orc and their kids Simon and Nathdag the Headtaker. Simon ended up getting in with the wrong crowd and ended up in a life of crime, while Nathdag the Headtaker became a librarian.
Hi guys hope you've been having a great day. And this has been a good and interesting topic.and I think there could be good orcs to an extent great video as always guys thanks for the content 👍😃
I think some of the strongest evidence that good orcs exist, even if they are not explicitly shown in the text, is in the War of the Last Alliance.
"From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."
This is from the Silmarillion, and it touches on the forces arrayed in the war and particularly the final battle. It states that all living things were divided that day, fighting on both sides, save for the elves. That implies pretty strongly to me that at least some of the orcs, even if not very many, fought on the side of the Last Alliance against Sauron. We don't know what their reasons would be for doing so, of course, but it wouldn't be hard to believe they simply didn't wish to be slaves any more.
I like to imagine there's a group of orcs on an orc bar just getting off a long day of throwing things into a flamming hole for what ever reason, they don't know they just work to support the orc economy. I imagine the conversation goes like this.
Orc1: hey mates! This rounds on me, I threw a record amount of flammable things into the fire hole today!
Orc2: did you hear about sauruman? He got impaled by another white wizard, my cousin grimgolglub was right there when it happened.
Orc 3: wait do we have a new boss?
Orc2: no that's the thing, they just left. Those tree things are still there but no one's running that show.
Orc1: why can't we just lead ourselves?
Orc 3: what you mean?
Orc 1: well everytime some dark lord or bright Lord or skeletor shows up they offer a good deal but end up giving us nothing, you'd think we'd have learned by now.
Orc2: that's some dangerous thinking there! But maybe it would benefit froglie Jr if orc kind got into infrastructure management or resource extraction for ourselves as a buyable service to the man people
Orc 3: yeah....we can have our grog and drink it to, ooooo let's make some signs and get a march going and really stick it to those demigods.
There are, but they have a habit of falling out of windows unless they can flee Mordor.
I am pretty sure it is in the Lord of the Rings (in the appendices) that in the battle before the Black Gate near the end of the second age, members of every species were on both sides. Only the Elves stood united against Sauron. That means that the Orcs were not united, so some fought along side the Last Alliance. Were they good? I do not know, but they actively fought against Sauron.
I wanna see the orc education system. Who teaches them to talk, forge, fight, sew, build, etc.
This is like asking if there are any good politicians
I’m more hopeful about good orcs than good politicians.
Question of the day: Here my Utopian optimism and cold hard numbers collide! Whenever Orcs are shown, it's always in massive numbers. Even if mere fractions survive the fall of a Dark Lord, we're probably talking thousands or more. The sheer statistical improbability of NONE of them, when free of outside meddling (Morgoth or Sauron), choosing to do good, when they have the choice (as Tolkien, the foremost expert, quite clearly states they do), is frankly evidence enough for me. Yes, good Orcs, at some point, existed.
'Not iredeemable' is yes enough.
So with this in mind, why were people so surprised by Galadriel's speech to Adar in ROP? Yes, she is genocidal against the orcs. But is she, in this sense, different from other elves in Tolkien's works? If orcs are irredeemably evil, what is bad about this? That is the question that ROP tries to raise with the conversation between Adar and Galadriel. The orcs, for once, are humanized, even just a tiny bit, by wanting to have a home and by having a sort of familial relationship.
You know they are a parasite and a corruption of what is good?
Remember what Faramir said, "I would not kill even an orc without cause."
Well, there was Todd. I've always liked Todd. Todd's pretty cool for an orc.
Illuvitar could redeem them, as melchor's discord is part of his grand plan and who knows what his future looks like... though then they would no longer be orcs would they? I don't think that orcs would redeem themselves because they are still corrupted by melchor not just by Sauron and Saruman. So they would still be corrupted after the destruction of the one ring as they weren't created by the ring.
It's possible, but it could only happen after their dark lord was gone. Morgoth, then Sauron. I think they were compelled to serve out of fear for their master and because of a binding power/magic the dark lords had over their servants, but once that dynamic was gone, the actual presence of the dark lord's influence over them, they could have the capacity to do good. If a group of them could conclude, "hey, we' ve been fighting the dwarves and men for our master, but now the master is gone and we don't feel compelled to fight them except in self-defense. Maybe we could make peace? What is there left to fight for?"
Based on what we've seen of orc intelligence it's likely most would hate the idea and want to just hide and steal from and harass the free people whenever convenient, but a minority of them would be able to seriously consider the idea. And as their numbers continued to fall and they got more and more hunted, definitely some would reach this conclusion and ask for mercy and peace.
Well, yes. Even if we don't see them in the book, like orc women they exist. There's good and evil of all the races in middle earth save for the elves whom all oppose Sauron. Virtuous trolls, murderous ents, wicked dwarves, and noble wargs. They just kinda get in the way of the story so we never see them. And of course hobbits, some of which were allied to Saruman as he was enslaving their homeland and fought at his side in Bywater.
Honestly I kinda feel for the Moria orcs. Like in Eragon the Urgals that were honestly just living life. The Moria orcs were kinda just minding their own in a way. They didn’t ask to be orcs.
Please do more like this. Love the podcast view and stuff. But I do love the background images and stuff you do have already. However this is just my opinion of the bat but I do like this style of video
We always plan on having two lore videos and the one live stream/podcast video a week, so the best of both worlds hopefully 😁
IMHO, from what we see during the time of LotR, I'd say no they're aren't, they are all under Sauron's control or will to some extent. As far as I know, it's never explicitly stated, but I've always had the impression that they are kind of pushed to evil a similar way that the ring whispers to the bearer. That they do have their own wills, but are directed, often subconsciously, to do the dark lord's bidding, though in a more abstract way. I would say that after the fall of Sauron, some Orcs could and very likely would, begin to question their existence and their place in the world, and may indeed find one without war and conquest. One major issue would be that if they don't live in isolation, I can't imagine many of the races of Middle Earth believing that they've turned over a new leaf, which could inevitably lead to them falling back into their old ways, if the other races hunted them down when encountered.
I'll preface by saying I'm not the most knowledgeable about Tolkin's works, but I just had an idea about the origin of orcs.
My idea is this: it's generally accepted that orcs started as corrupted and tortured elves. And (to my understanding) an elves reproduction is different from man's because producing a child draws mostly from the mother's spirit. What if the main part of the torture Morgoth inflicted was forcing them to breed, which they generally don't like, diminishing their spirits and weakening their wills. Thus creating large amounts of weak willed, and spiritually inferior creatures.
Obviously he made them breed, but I wonder if that was the main mechanism by which he implemented his torture. Death by snu-snu!
I feel for the elves who just awoke in middle earth only to be captured and twisted to orcs by Morgoth and yet the Valar just gave Morgoth a second chance but the first orcs are doomed and condemned everywhere.
I think a bigger question is wold a good orc survive long enough to be recognised as good and even if they did would they be recognised as good by human standards as there environment of upbringing would change a lot of the context of being good
In Deep Geek covered this in detail.
If they need to write a good Orc character, they can always use Sandor Clegane as an inspiration.
In addition to his religion, there are two other ideologies of Tolkien that are important to remember when wondering whether or not good orcs existed: his deep racism and classism. Could there be good orcs? Probably not on any significant scale, as orcs are the dark and low class counterpart to the elves.
Sigh. You asked for it.
Here is my considered take on this subject.
First, define "good".
Is it good to hate your enemies?
Morgoth created the orcs in mockery of the Elves, the worshippers of Eru and the Valar. Elves were fair (in both senses) and immortal. Orcs had to be ugly and hate filled and shorter lived, so they could breed quickly and abundantly and come to full growth - for Morgogh needed an army, one of overwhelming numbers, if he would conquer creation.
So the entire orc culture, such as it was , had to be built around that self perpetuating hatred. So the entire race was devoted to survival and killing for survival. You killed the Master's enemies and if you survived, you were rewarded. If the Master was away, you killed to survive and you could keep what you got. If the Master wanted loot, you too wanted loot, but you first killed to get the Master what he wanted and then you could get rewarded with food and some loot too. And don't forget, manflesh was high on the menu, so just raiding to rob and run wasn't the point. You ate the farmer and family, then you grabbed valuables and livestock (for later eating), and trashed the farm because that was fun.
The hatred that the Uruks and others were bred with was absolute and was directed to all, except the Masters, Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman. The Masters got loyalty and worship, but tempered with profound fear. The Masters ruled with a fear so profound, orcs would slay themselves at any Master's bidding. They were bound to the Great Evil, and when first released by Sauron's utter destruction, they were witless as Tolkien puts it, those ants that lose all motivation when the swollen brooding thing that holds them in thrall is struct down. They ran and hid and suicidally threw themselves into the crevasses and the water and caves with no exit. The hate was gone but the fear overwhelmed them.
The fear might fade, but it will take generations for the hatred (and cannibalism) to be muted to something less virulent.
Is it good to be loyal?
Loyalty had to be instilled; without that, evil oft shall evil mar, and the Master would be dealing with defectors and rebellions every other day.
Loyalty to the Master was paramount, but then it was loyalty to the tribe and kind. Hence how Goblin Town functioned; thusly could the Great Goblin exert power over an entire mountain of goblins. And when the Great Goblin fell, he had enough sub-chiefs and leaders to organize a hunt of the Dwarves (and wizard and Hobbit), not to mention the alliance with Bolg and the Moria orcs AND the Wargs, all of whom wished vengeance on those who had harmed them.
Is it good to have comradery?
Comradery or esprit des corps has been vital for every army ever. At the end of the day, you fight for the guys besides you.
Thus, "We are the fighting Uruk-hai!" they shout, when Aragorn wishes to parler "we do not stop for daylight". They are a unified whole, and will carry out the mission, no matter what.
Is friendship good?
Shagrat and Gorbag are clearly friends; they served together, they have a long history together, they like each other enough to consider desertion and setting up their own enterprise "with a few trusty lads, a place with nice easy loot and no big bosses". They even trust each other enough to at least hear each other out and discuss their doubts about what's really going on and they understand and are able to call out each other's flaws. Although it does not survive the greed over the mithril shirt, it was a real friendship.
Is fun good?
Again define fun.
Orcs delight in the kill, they love to crush and trample green growing things that are not even in their way (the opposite of the Elves' philosophy). They think hurting others is funny and they are always eager for sport.
Is invention/creativity good?
While independent thought is likely not encouraged, Tolkien himself says that the orcs were likely the inventors of those instruments of war and torture, especially tools that can kill large numbers of people at once. Something that again, mocks the peaceful creativity of the Elves.
This list shows that Morgoth et als accomplished their goal of perverting and subverting things and traits that under other circumstances would be admirable. And while I think that the orcs themselves are as doomed as the Dwarves and the Ents and the Elves in the Age of Men, there is one accidental escape hatch that Saruman gave the race...he blended the races of orcs and men (half- orcs, goblin men, and the squint-eyed Southerner). Ruffians from the Shire would make their way to Dunland, and with the loss of manpower from the War, would likely be welcomed.
Folks, we are the descendants of the orcs, and the Elves, and hopefully, the Hobbits and the Dwarves.
Which is why when the Monsters are due on Maple Street, they look just like us.
The Monsters are Due on Maple St is the most prophetic of Serling's great series, as the Others say, noting the nature of humanity as the watchers prepare to leave as the people on Maple St begin to destroy each other. I believe Serling said someone it was about the "contagion" of paranoia during the cold war, it can be seen in a broader context of being a bitter yet profound indictment on humanity and our tendencies towards violence and Othering. Your comment is not only appreciated, and well written, but thoughtful and the kind of conversations that are worth having. Writing these scripts, I don't think anyone here at TBS intends to make judgments which everyone has to agree with. I think you put your finger on an issue which made Tolkien himself uncomfortable, but as you touch on the moral subjectivity of personal experience, and the way we judge it -- this is why we included Tolkien's opinions as far as could be done to further explain as best as we could. Cheers man, and from one writer to another, I hope your writing is not confined to merely these wonderful responses to our humble efforts at educating and entertaining about a world and fictional universe we all can call home and be therein -- kin, if only by a different mode of thinking. Thank you for being a viewer, and for engaging with the material intelligently and kindly.
I could see good orcs but I like how they are now an army of evil
The physical and spiritual corruption of the elves and the creation of orcs can be considered as a result of Melkor's spiritual incarnation. Theoretically speaking, it could be argued that the orcs could be corrected if Melkor could apply the reverse of this dark knowledge. I believe this.
without being under the control of sauron or morgoth or even Sauroman it is possible orcs can cease to be evil as it is their will that keeps evil. without an evil lord to serve or control them, they may have lost the "evil" influence over time. they may still remain a bit savage, but "evil" they may not be. does not mean they may not be dangerous. sort of like a Carniverous dinosaur would be.
I’m going to leave this comment and then watch the video to see how it turned out.
I believe that there can be good half-orcs and Uruk-hai, but not good true orcs of twisted elves and men under the control of darkness.
Azog sent me here!!
There are no bad Orcs, only Orcs that do bad things
Good Orcs hm, I do think that after the destruction of Sauron the remaining Orcs that scattered from the battlegrounds at the black gates and those not present would hold a grudge against Man, Dwarf and Elf for murdering their kin and vice versa. For that I think no Orc willingly ally with any of the other races of Middle Earth other than the ones that already allied themselves under Sauron. But maybe in due time if no other dark peril rises, maybe acceptance can come to be among all races of Middle Earth.
I think Tolkien should have made orcs as evil extensions of Morgoth, as in fairytails, not living beings. They would've been inherently evil and beyond redemption, full stop. Tolkien made it difficult for himself by not allowing Morgoth to create life, but he kind of did anyway with his first songs? Also, Aule was able to create the dwarves in secret. Why couldnt Melkor when he was meant to be more powerful?
A really nice but slightly whimsical idea is that all the orcs change back into elves again, and aren't wicked any more
I dont think its morally questionable for Gimli and Legolas to slaughter elves because it's self defense. Saruman attacked Rohan and their somewhat grisly competition fits in with Saxon warrior culture I guess. Same with Aragorn - him warning the orcs isnt about whether theyre descended from elves or not, it's about his own conduct as a leader, following a strict moral code. Thats why Aragorn in the movie cutting off The Mouth of Sauron's head is so wrong. It's something the orcs would do, but never Aragorn.
Good and Evil is 100% perspective based. To their enemies Orcs are Evil.. to another of their own tribe, one could be seen as "good" if they actively care for them in someway (such as sharing of food and goods, or giving a weapon/tool that's not needed by its original owner). They are portrayed in many tales as being willing to tear each other apart if greed or need came into it and these were the qualities bred into them, but they wouldn't tribe together without some sort of shared goal or reason.
With that shared goal in mind, the failure of the tribe would bring more hardships to them if they couldn't offer soldiers to what ever higher power ruled over them, weather that's another orc tribe or Sauron himself. An orc could gain power in these tribes through their own strength, but the most powerful leaders would be strong and smart. Eventually commanding his people to do things that will help them rather then destroy them mindlessly. To that end the leader spoken of in your tale of the 3 groups that followed post Moria must have seen their leader as a "good" leader if they were willing to get revenge (you might want to prove you are stronger then the people who killed your leader to gain his position but the orc way would had always been to just fight for power directly so this seems like a reach in this situation). He was evil to the fellowship (the goal was to kill them after all) but in their own social circle where he may have even been revered and seen as a good leader.
Keep in mind most medal of honor recipients are considered heroes and some of the greatest of "good" men simply for killing the enemy at a crucial moment in selfless acts(some were by self sacrifice/bravery in saving lives but these are far rarer).. Those on the opposite side of the battle may see them as the greatest evil for killing so many friends. Those contradictions are present everywhere though, the fact most religions saying "killing is wrong unless they read that other book" is a prime example. Even having very slight differences in subsects of religion is enough to ignore that rule. Even a man that has saved hundreds of lives may be hated and seen as evil by some for letting 1 person die in the process. Those hundreds see a good person, the loved one of the person lost may see an evil person. After witnessing war I feel like this is the point Tolkien is trying to get across... War is very messy and is technically the greatest evil as no ones rights are respected by the other side... fighting to stop a war can be good if it means your rights are being protected, but you are actively repressing someone else's rights.. and so we fall down the rabbit hole of morality.
In short Orcs are good... though that doesn't mean we can be friends.
It’s all allegorical all work is maybe Tolkien doesn’t even know how but subliminally all stories are
Those two Orcs from the Rankin/Bass movie? Other then that, I can't say.
i think goblins and orcs (two different things, not the same with different name ... ) can be like other societies
if elfs have generally "good: folk and some rotten apples .... we look at the good in general, and still look for the good in the noldor and dark elf
if goblins and orcs are looked at only as opposite and evil, we choose not to see the good inside, which does not mean they can not be good, they never been given the time to see the good within ...
i think in giving time for goblins and orcs to develop societies without oversight of rulers like morgoth and sauron they would civilize
i personally think that the true evil is not seeing the good
wanting to see the enemy and not the relative, all stems from the creation song, and if not meant by iluvatar to be, they would not be,
no one is saying the numenorians are evil colonialists that trash the land for wood and power ... from orcs and dunlandings that would be the case ...
the view one has on the world should be neutral, picking a side will blind you to see possible options,
i think tolkien was having a hard deal with black and white good and evil story writing and redemption in life or death .
these days we are maybe a little more free to displace our own views and pick neutrality, where in a story writing perspective that is harder ....
making goblins and orcs EVIL by nature, is then a failure of iluvatar, for letting them be possible, and we know what iluvatars take was on it,
he mocked melkor when he sang out of tune ....
so in that i think redemption and civilized life can be there, but are humans willing to allow it ?
those who do not want to allow it are probably more evil than the goblins and orcs for they seek an enemy and therefor not peace.
is there then redemption for those humans ? or humanity ?
because that is the same generalization and i know no one wants to be generalized and marginalized...
therefor goblins and orcs can be and should be seen as possible to redeem them self if given time and space to develop in peace.
good orcs or good goblins, are those who do not want to follow the evil leaders
so moria goblins would be close, or the orcs that desired a life without sauron
being so biased and blinded by "good" of mankind and elf kind is just stupid
moria goblins had a good life in their own world
sure they took it from the dwarfs but then again, did not the man of the west take middle earth over ?
did the noldor not come to middle earth and further the strive ?
good and evil are based on where you stand and from which side you look.
elfs humans sauron saruman they all wanted power over others ....
regardless of motive,
and power over others is the root of all evil
not being able to allow the other to live free is evil
breaking the golden rule is evil
and from a goblin or orc or even troll view, there are many evils out there
that they did not create, but were thrown into
take the trolls that lived off the land, diet ? human or dwarf or hobbit by design
does their design make their personalities evil ?
or are they only evil because their design requires them to see you as food ?
it still does not make them evil, just hungry.
if they are evil
then elfs and man are evil too, for they want to kill without even needing to feed on what they kill
they take because of their inflated sense of good and evil so biased and blinded
remember it was the numenorians who came back to middle earth to CLAIM the land
so if the moria goblins are evil for having claimed moria, then sure the numenorians are evil for claiming middle earth ...
use the same measuring stick please
Evildoers must be stopped, and if they will not yield of their own volition: slain. I do not think it is appropriate to argue that the heroes are morally dubious just because their enemies are not completely and utterly evil. The heroes, I will point out, do not ever attack orcs who are not explicitly threatening their lives. If there is a band of not-totally-evil orcs somewhere, we would not know because those orcs are not threatening the heroes. In all likelihood there probably is, just given how rowdy and chaotic orcs tend to be. But while Morgoth and then Sauron were around, the vast majority of all orcs were under their direct control: and thus had little chance of choosing to do anything besides follow orders or get killed by their comrades. The Moria orcs are a possible exception, since they were so cut off and it doesn't seem like the balrog ever tried to control them. The Uruk-hai never really got the chance to develop any rebellion against Saruman. Also, I think the actual body count for Aragorn is about 50% orcs and 50% Men, since the Battle of the Pelennor Fields mostly involved Sauron's Mannish allies. You're not supposed to see the killing of Haradrim or Corsairs or Men of Rhûn as morally dubious either. They are fascists, fighting for Sauron. Any good members of those cultures aren't on the field. You can't be a good person and also justify killing on behalf of a fascist regime. The only way you can be a good person if your country's military has gone fascist is to desert or dodge recruitment. Anyone choosing to be on that battlefield is not a good person. They might not be thoroughly evil, but in this exact moment they are evildoers.
If orcs are redeemed, they cease to be orcs. They are now whatever it was they started out as. They were made into orcs, so their orcishness can be shed. It isn't who they are on a deep level. You forgot to mention here that if orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then the whole morality question becomes rather different: since death for an Elf is not the end of their ability to take action in the world. Death is of course still a serious thing for an Elf, and we certainly see Elves swear vengeance (the Sons of Finwë), but it is not the end. So isn't killing an orc giving them a chance to accept the summons of Mandos, and actually seek redemption? In any case, their death does not represent the total loss of the chance to redeem themselves.
FOR FRODO!