Where do orcs go when they die?
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2024
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Развлечения
They go on the menu.
lmao
was coming here for it
Amazing lmfaoo
What else are we gonna eat, maggoty bread?
*RRWWWAAAAARRROOOOO*
Congratulations, Robert, on your well-deserved nomination for a Tolkien Society award!
Congratulations Robert! I am joining the Tolkein Society to vote for you! Well deserved!!
These are definitely the same person right
thats a thing?
I’ve never heard of this award but my guy deserves it
Never heard of it, but acknowledgment is always nice, right? Good on him
I like to imagine them being healed in the halls of mandos. They had no say in what was done to them and very little in what they did.
I think this is the best answer. The Halls of Mandos aren't a place where they go to be punished for their wicked acts or lack of "purity." They're a place of healing, and if the orcs tend to stay there for a very long time, well, who is more in need of rest and healing?
This is my favorite theory as well. The idea of mercy (or pity), even towards the undeserving like Gollum or Saruman, is so important to the story. It's hard to imagine that Eru's plan would not leave room for mercy for the orcs, especially if they were created from his own Children.
Tolkien also saw the defeat of Sauron as a eucatastrophe - the sudden, unexpected turn of events that avoids utter destruction and delivers the characters to some kind of salvation or happy ending. If the orcs are indeed corrupted Elves and/or Men, climax of the story is not just a eucatastrophe for our heroes but for them as well. Their armies are defeated, their Master destroyed, their minds broken, and their bodies destined for an inescapable death. But, in the midst of all this misery, they are freed from the bodies that bear Melkor's corruption. They are freed from the will of the Dark Lord. Their spirits are allowed to journey West, where they will find rest and peace for the first time. Someday, if they are Elves, they may even rejoin the world in Aman, where they can live in beauty and bliss and be at peace among friends and kin.
It's a salvation that feels very improbable. Certainly it feels "undeserved" given what Tolkien describes of orcs. But I think that's part of what makes it fit so perfectly into the larger story Tolkien is telling.
This is one of Robert's best. I like the idea that spiritual consistency could be found in Eä.
You could view orcs as corrupted into insanity, and ultimately innocent.
Or, similar to Melkor, Sauron and Saruman, who were unrepentant, living at odds with Eru, choosing to reject Eru and with Eru's justice and mercy, you could see them as damned. This is the idea that self-exclusion from God/heaven is hell. It is Christian, particularly Catholic.
So I like that explanation. Those there by choice will never understand and are self-excluded. Those there through force and corruption will be healed.
As a mythology, keeping this a mystery is a good thing. I'm ok with we don't know.
Gollum is a great example. Was he corrupted and insane, or unrepentant and irredeemable. I think he was a tortured soul worthy of mercy. Could he be healed?
@@phildunn3195 maybe, though it didn't take much for him to turn on his cousin and friend in the worst way, but was that just how sheerly powerful the ring was? Also him stealing through windows then to cradles......................Gollum because of his size is not portrayed as to how horrible his acts were. And the Goblins he ate as well, lets not forget they are sentient beings as well.
I've often wondered why Tolkien never stated, even in his letters, that Men ended up joining God in heaven, as with his faith we would naturally conclude. But now hearing that letter, that he would never be so presumptuous as to guess God's plan, even within his own legendarium, is astounding to me. I'm utterly satisfied with not knowing now, because it's not just a mystery of "the writer never got around to telling us" but "the writer put so much thought into it that he couldn't possibly be arrogant enough to answer it".
Tolkein reserved the fate of Men to them alone, which is exactly the tenet of his faith. Elves do not go anywhere, except to Mandos to be recycled into the world.
The souls of Men of Middle-earth suffered the same fate as the souls of Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, and all who came before them. They had to wait for the coming of Jesus Christ to be redeemed before they could “join” with God (Eru) in Heaven.
@@Keffinated Thanks, but we're talking about a well crafted, internally consistent, enjoyable work of fiction that has enriched he lives of hundred of millions and hurt no one, vs a poorly written, utterly nonsensical collection of male control wish-fulfillment short stories written that has enriched a few million high ranking clergy, and directly lead to ongoing abuse, enslavement, debasement, belittlement, and disenfranchisement of billions across the globe.
Oh yes, religious bullshits.
@@lilyfhonazhel2675 Like it or not, faith and religion shaped Tolkien’s work. I’m not religious myself, but it’s fascinating to read and look into someone else’s view of the world and what’s beyond it.
One of the best things about LOTR is that Tolkien is trying to figure bits of it out too. He doesn’t know how it all fits together exactly. That’s what makes it feel so deep and real. It’s like how Gandalf has a VIBE of what’s important and what to do next, but he’s feeling his way forward, not making and executing predetermined plans…
"Tolkien thought about this a lot" could be an opener for every video
"Do hobbits know what a train locomotive sounds like...? Tolkien thought about this a lot."
The question I've always pondered isn't where Tolkien thinks that orcs go after they die, but where do *orcs* think they go after they die. Any clues there? The snatches of orc dialogue we get in LOTR indicates that orcs are obedient to Sauron and live in fear of him, but they aren't particularly happy about it. Do they look at Morgoth as a god who created them and has prepared an afterlife for them? Any clues from the canon?
Really good question. Love to hear the answer.
Very interesting question. I hope Robert reads this so we can get another reflexion of it.
They're bred through magic, right? At the tower down in what looked like an incubator. So how would they have a soul?
@@h2eh1s- That isn't true for the books, you're probably thinking of the scene from the movie adaptation of the Two Towers where the Uruks are born from mud or...something.
Yeah, this channel and the discussion here is really not about the movies and the liberties that they took. We all appreciate or even love the movies, but they don't always represent Tolkien's intention.
I already knew Tolkien was a man to be respected, admired, and emulated (especially as a writer), but I never realized how much so until you got to that last portion. He could absolutely have speculated and theorized and no one would have questioned him, but instead chose to remember that he's still just a man, no matter how vast and immersive (almost real) the world he created was.
As a fellow Roman Catholic, and a student of British literature, I place Tolkien and Chesterton in a league completely of their own in terms of crafting literature and theology.
I tend towards the view that orcs are corrupted elves and when they die they go to the Halls of Mandos to be healed in spirit and redeemed.
That seems to be the most compassionate solution.
I think orcs would refuse the call to Mandos and fade and become wayward spirits like faded Avari who refused Mandos' call. I do not think any dying orc would be in a state to accept Mandos' call, - as they are basically corrupted Avari and we know that many even uncorrupted Avari refuse to go to Mandos. And I do think orcs cannot be men originally, or 1 they would most likely not be sun-averse 2. if the unlikely circumstance that they were sun-averse in spite of their human origin then merely crossing them with (then) other humans would not have removed it - and it did.
It would certainly highlight the ultimate futility of Morgoth's attempts to subvert Eru. Yes, yes Morgy, you've drug your toys through the mud, now let's get them cleaned up and put you to bed.
well, originally corrupted elves, long since bred into something else, not just the looks but the lifespans.
I think the most important part of this video is pointing out the humility of Tolkien. It's an object lesson about fantasy, don't put so much into it so you lose the sense of fantasy. Good video!
i always thought the point of fantasy was to make and explain your world more so than ours. a chance to explain everything. it feels so good to do so. why leave mysteries if you don't have to?
nah your just talking about a hard magic system vs a soft magic system
@@613-shadow9 yall don't know the difference between hard and soft magic systems
Safe to say the stone idea remained, but changed from Orcs to Trolls.
Trolls were another mockery of holy creation, this time being the Ents.
Perhaps their lack of intelligence and agency (in the wild, they only survive; they don't build), denotes the absence of soul, which Morgoth lacked the power to produce.
They can't even build shelters, just use caves or ruins
Thank you for covering this topic as it should be covered. So many people get stuck in the "orcs are evil, why aren't they more nuanced?" without really digging into the lore.I think Tolkien's humility to give us ideas but not to make hard decisions is very ob point for his ideas.
Personally, I feel like the orcs were like the Imperial Stormtroopers from Star Wars: They could be slaughtered without incurring any guilt. So it’s nice to see that Tolkien actually gave this some thought, even if he never really found an answer.
As it happens, I just read the scene where Sam and Frodo see a war elephant. And right before this Sam sees a man (one of the enemy) killed by other men (the guys on his side). Tolkien does a nice job with Sam’s reaction, showing that he recognizes the dead man’s humanity. But none of our heroes ever seems to feel that way about orcs.
Orcs funny enough had better aim than Imperial Storm Troopers they actually managed to get some kills via ranged weapons, something almost impossible for Imperial Storm Troopers.
I think that scene also sets a few rules for how one is supposed to think about an enemy in the context of this world. Your example of Stormtroopers is a great example of an enemy you can kill in great numbers without thought or remorse, they're essentially just there to facilitate action. There could've been possibly millions living on either death star when they blew up and nobody ever thinks of the great cost, the good guys won and therefore it's a good ending. LotR, especially the Frodo plot, had a much lower kill count and in this particular case the story even took a pause to think about a guy just recently killed and that makes death a more notable event. Another point is at the end of Two Towers, when you hear a couple orcs talking about their dreams and desires for independence from Sauron and their own raiding band, making them characters. Tolkien does this a few times, making the enemy look like people with a real life. I think that's part of why we're interested in what happens to them after death and, at least in my case, hope there's some sort of redemption waiting for them.
@@MusMasi Stormtroopers actually had great aim. Obi Wan even comments on this ("only stormtroopers are so precise"). When they miss on Death Star they are under strict orders to let the rebels go so they can be tracked to hidden base. On Hoth, they massacre veteran rebel troops with little casualties. Only later the imbecile hack filoni took the dumb meme and made it reality by dumbing down what once was elite special forces level troops into hopeless mooks easily beaten by a bunch of teens...
@@plebisMaximusWell put. Thank you. As I reread Lord of the Rings, I keep thinking about Tolkien’s experiences in World War I, which definitely informed his work. The enemy he faced then were human beings, men who suffered just as he and his comrades did, but who were also anonymous. I think the next thing to look at is All Quiet on the Western Front. We need to learn from these stories.
This was a great scene in the books. I remember looking up why British English used the spelling Oliphant and what a "Gaffer" is. Good memories.
You won't see them again til 2nd Lithe
Edit @10:30 I already greatly respected Tolkien intellectually but I admire his attitude on addressing certain questions of the soul. His humility both shows the respect he has for what he considers to be sacred, but also works on the narrative level. Tolkien is not the god of his world. He is the storyteller, he is the loremaster and the sage who is judicious with his wisdom. But he still leaves some things in the hands of the divine.
Bad folks, indeed.
@@andrewkiluk I knew a hobbit, came from the shire. Taking a ring to a mount of fire. He sailed West just a little too soon
Not that I think it pertains to where Orcs really go after death, but I can imagine Orc Valhalla is one big Cirith Ungol brawl, filled with fatal executions and respawnings.
Awesome conceptualisation. Love it👌 ❤🎉
WRONG!! They go to Ork-lahoma.....
orcs are evil, black, cowardly and hideous monsters. they probably respawned as indians irl.
They become the Nemesis to the Ranger!!
Tha big Waagh in 'eaven
I think they wind up in New Jersey...near the Meadowlands.
Nah, the Pine Barrens, next door neighbors of the Jersey Devil.
Condemned to work at American Dream for all time.
Or some call center in India.
Oh! I love the idea that not all orks (uruks, goblins, etc) have the same origin! That is an interesting in-universe concept and a sly way to incorporate multiple authorial explanations. That orkification might have been committed more than once -- chilling.
Since Tolkien determined Orcs do have souls and only Eru can make a soul, we can narrow it down to options 2 and 4: either they were corrupted Elves or corrupted Men. Maybe they were a bit of both. So I think some of them were locked up by Mandos, and some of them left the confines of the world like all Men do.
Orcs predate the coming of Men though, right? I can’t remember if Melkor had Orcs in Utumno or not.
@@hokogan yes but through the years and ages Morgoth and then Sauron might’ve caught and corrupted more men into becoming Orcs.
I love that he cared so deaply about every creature, ven the bad guys, that he wanted to know where they went when they died.
He would have hated the idea of storm troopers.
On the barbeque. Next question!
gross
@@jbc242424not if you have bbq sauce
@@jbc242424anything is good with enough seasoning
And the menu has newly scrawled "Meat".
This is sick
I generally like all of your videos, but this one is a particularly interesting question to consider. Very cool.
They go to the hospital if they were dueling Viggo on set
That dude apparently didn't hold back XD
Halls of Mandos for a freakin change of pace after their hella crappy earthly existence
@ 5:44, Feanor ain't getting out anytime soon , either. 😂
@ 7:06, The hound was from Valinor, so it was no ordinary beast. If I recall correctly, it was a gift from Orome to one of the sons of Feanor
Correct on both accounts. Huan was given by Orome to Celegorm. I thought that about Feanor not getting out as well. Alas for the marring of Curufinwe - one of Morgoth's greatest evils.
“Wherever orcs go.”
Canonically, orcs are mentioned before the arrival of Man, so orcs originating as Men seems right out. For my own head-canon, I prefer a blending of the various origins (except, perhaps, the one where they were made from stone, which might work better for trolls). In my theory, orcs were initially a type of beast, one of the many evil things that roamed Middle Earth in the days before the Sun. Taken by Melkor and interbred with captured /tortured Elves to give the a shape in mockery of Elves. Much later, when elves became too isolated and sparse, captured Men may have served as breeding specimens, leading to the various types (subspecies) of orc that populate the world. And of course, orcs would naturally be able to breed with each other as well.
As for where they go when they die, I also side with Tolkien's final thoughts that they aren't beyond redemption. An eternity in the Halls of Mandos, where they await the Dagor Dagorath, upon which they either repent and fight on the side of good, or are cast back into the world as Morgoth's slaves and ultimately suffer complete anihilation.
I read somewhere that Elves can't be tortured. Their souls nearly exceed their physical forms and if truly distressed they can will themselves to die, and the body evaporates. No Elf has ever been r*ped.
1:46 to 1:55
2:08 to 2:29
6:44 to 6:54 Animals DO HAVE SOULS--in Tolkien, and beyond his Legendarium!
Tolkien was amazing. Thank you again, Robert!
They do in the Bible too. I'm not sure where the weird idea of "only humans have souls" came from.
@@XavionofTheraI know, it's annoying. I suspect Descartes had something to do with it.
Yes! I’ve been asking for this video for some time now! So happy to see you delve into it!
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly.
Came here looking for this comment.
One interesting thing that may be relevant is what happened to the orcs when Sauron was defeated. They were no longer bound to his will, and they started acting chaotically instead of having a common purpose.
Honestly one of your best and most thought-provoking essays- and you’ve done some great ones!
The term "mockery" is misread by a lot of Tolkien fans. Orcs being created as a "mockery" of the elves does not mean that the orcs are elves at all. It simply means that Morgoth bred the orcs as his first creations, and they are an extremely cheapened being compared to the elves. The elves were creation of Eru, and the first of his children. The orcs are Morgoths equivalent of the elves. There are writings from Tolkien that suggests that the orcs could be corrupted elves, but he wasn't comfortable with that lore. The truth is, we will never know what orcs truly were meant to be in Tolkiens mind. I think it works just fine that they were made from stone and slime. They honestly do not have free will. Just because they can interact with the world, form groups, and cooperate without a true master to lead them does not mean they have free will. Without a master to lead them, they eventually die off because they aren't a natural part of the world, and they cannot change with the world. Orcs have a deep need to kill, fight, and commit the most evil acts in Tolkiens world. They were bred only for that purpose, and they most likely cannot choose another path due to their corruption. Choosing where you want to go, and who you want to kill, or not kill does not mean you have free will.
In that sense, i would say you do have free will, it's just that you need a lot of evolution and growth, and with the way that orcs are treated as expendable by literally everyone, it's unlikely, there seems to be no point in it
Several of the orcs talked about setting up on their own away from the big bosses. That is Free Will. The Trolls were also "mockerys' of Ents, according to Treebeard.
The idea of orcs being born from animals that grew intelligent makes me wonder. What happens to intelligent animals in Tolkien's world when they die? The Great Eagles are the best known example, but other birds in The Hobbit like thrushes and ravens are shown to not only have high measures of intelligence, but also some agency to do good or evil. Do they have no souls? Or maybe souls that are mortal and die along with their bodies?
I Imagine since they are literally from nature they simply return back and souls are broken up into smaller "simpler" souls
The eagles are an exception because - though Tolkien changed his mind a few times - are not animals that just grew intelligent but rather Maiar sent to Middleearth. Animals are soulless, no matter their intelligence. A mortal soul wouldn't make much sense in my opinion.
To me this is one of the contradictions between what Tolkien believed as a Roman Catholic and what he believed as a storyteller. Scholastic theology had always maintained that only beings endowed with reason have soul, and that animals, being without reason, are soulless. Tolkien's concept of the distinction between fëa and hröa was designed to accommodate this belief. But Tolkien wrote his mythology against the background of the folklore and fairy tales of his native England, where the talking thrush and the ravens and other clever animals have their roots, and these elements do not mesh with a more academic understanding of the question.
In fairy tales, all things have souls. That's what fairy tales are about, animals and trees and swords and harps thinking and speaking and having souls. Writers like William Blake thought everything had a soul, even the tiniest flea, which he imagine as a fierce warrior in contrast to it's tiny body. There are weird exceptions (Hans Christian Andersen wrote the Little Mermaid based on the idea that mermaids don't have souls), but most of Tolkien's predecessors would have have taken it for granted that every living thing has a soul. These competing influences on Tolkien's imagination pulled his writings in opposing directions and created problems, like the exact origin of Orcs, that were never resolved to his satisfaction.
In his last writings on this topic, at least AFAIK), Tolkien wrote that the Great Eagles and other beings such as Huan the Hound did not have Fëa.
@@sm0k1nggnu_ Tolkien was a Catholic, he must have known abt. Franciscus of Assisi, patron and friend of animals. Franciskus called animals our "little brethren". I deduce thus that animals have souls.
Thank you, mate for mentioning what so many people seem to forget, or ignore; Humans do indeed go to the Halls of Mandos, to halls apart, where they stay for a while, before venturing "onwards."
I love the Cosmology of LOTR. I love that those who serve the Light can create; while the forces of evil cannot.
Such a fascinating topic thanks for covering it 👍
I remember I found your channel by googling a question in the same spirit as this one.
Thank you for the analysis! Very grateful that you mentioned Tolkien didn´t feel it was up to him to decide. Very wise of him, and I´m glad I don´t have to lose my high opinion of him ☺
They get reborn as Boromir again and again, forced to die over and over and over
N-NANI? GIORGIO?!
The orcs wind up in orc heaven where they get to see their orc families again.
Where do Orcs go when they die? They don't go to heaven where the Maiar fly. They go to the lake of fire and fry, don't see 'em again 'till the fourth of July.
🔥
- Where do orcs go when they die?
- Back on the menu
This is one of my favorites of your videos. Such a heartfelt ode to Tolkien in the guise of a niche fiction "trivia".
6:51 what about Bill the Poney? As he had some form of consciousness, so therefore shouldn't he have a soul?
Great video as always!
I just stumbled on your videos on this and now, I suddenly want to go pull out my books and start re-reading them along with all the maps that I have!!!
Thanks, geat video!!!
the video doesn't mention the line from The Choices of Master Samwise: "Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side." Or did I miss it? It is said by Gorbag as if the dark on the other side were an experience he was familiar with.
Where do bad orcs when they die?…. 🎶
🎵They don't go to eyries where Great Eagles fly, They go to a Mountain of Fire and fry, won't see 'em again till the Fourth o' July!🎶
You know even as a kid I felt for the orcs, many interactions show them to be just grunts like any other soldier. It’s them or us obviously, but they got a pretty rough deal in life, never even considered it might continue to suck after life. Melkor is the worst
Tolkien said of his own experience as a soldier, "We were all Orcs in the war."
WWI was a disaster in so many ways
@@VeylonMen do turn into Orcs in war, some of the things my father a Vietnam combat veteran,told me sounded like something an Orc would do.
@@c.antoniojohnson7114 Now I'm curious...
I heard a former Marine say "the Corps has no use for a human being"
There's more context, he was talking about how his humanity "grew back" after a while out of the Corps. Unfortunately, some remain, as he said, "brainwashed for life'.
It's an ugly business.
The most interesting thing to me about Tolkien and his legendarium is how he talks about it like he is only a steward of the knowledge; a keeper of the law, not the author and inventor of the entire history and theology of Middle Earth. Truly a unique and masterful storyteller.
You’re such a legend and genius Robert. Thank you for all your amazing videos.
They don't go to Aman where the Ainur fly.
They go with the flow, cheeky buggers
Note about the istari: they were absolutely incarnate, after which they did not have the ability to shed their physical bodies at will as other maiar could.
As some of the comments mention, I too like to believe that they find peace and respite and healing in the Halls of Mandos. As for after that? Part of me likes the idea of reincarnation for them, to give them an actual chance to live as Eru intended, unburdened by Morgoth’s corruption and malice. Anything after that, it’s up to who that orc truly was, not who they were forced to become from even before their birth.
The Internet comments section, obviously. ;)
Lol. Nice. I would have guessed trolls, but I like this better.
Love your videos Robert! Lotr question, why does Aragorn stop Grima Wormtongue's execution? Aragorn never seems overly hesitant to kill and Grima seems worthy of death for what he's done. Also, by what right does he stop another king's decision?
I'm not sure about this but as I understood it, the kings of Rohan considered the kings of Gondor a bit "above" themselves because they got the whole country from them as a gift.
Theoden was in a rage and not thinking clearly. Killing Wormtongue outright might make his men question the King's ability to rule, since he's been compromised until now, and killing any man without a fair hearing or trial was doubtless against the law in Rohan, and likely so since Helm Hammerhand, hero tho he was, acted impulsively and killed one of his council members, proclaimed those family and followers the King's enemies and started a civil war which tho he won it, cost him is own life and those of his sons, many Rohirrim, and increased the hatred between the Northmen who became Rohirrim and the local Dunlendings. He was babbling that he was a true and faithful man of Rohan and servant of the King, and so in the book he was given a choice, exile or come to battle with the king. Grima chose to flee.
Aragorn didn't stop the killing of Grima. Gandalf did.
A truly wonderful video!
I love that you speak to both parts of the brain.
First be a straight forward answer, taking in all the facts and drawing the logical conclusion, one for each prevailing theory.
Second in the end of the video when you highlight the philosophy. Sometimes the answer does not matter, but the thinking and reasoning behind the answer is what is important as it gives the context needed to understand where the answer is from.
This might be my second favorite video of yours Robert as this video made me think, instead of just consume.
Thank you!
Another excellent video - great stuff, Robert.
Well I'd say in the ground as fertilizer but I dont think thats the spirit of this video
Gen z would call that "literally based"
I feel like orc fertilizer would taint the soil and cause fungus 😂 keep it out of my garden
😂😊😂
Incorrect. The book clearly states that plants did not grow where orcs were buried. "Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there; but whether those who had fled into the wood were with them, none could say, for no man ever set foot upon that hill. The Death Down it was afterwards called, and no grass would grow there."
On the last note, it seems to me that Tolkien failed to be satisfied with the question of the souls of orcs because he recreated in LotR one of the unsolvable contradictions of Christian theology - theodicy (how an omnipotent, benevolent god could allow evil). Naturally, as a devout Christian I doubt he could acknowledge a contradiction in his core beliefs, and must have been troubled when forced to confront a very close analogy of it in his own writing. A precious window into his mind indeed.
I've noticed that parallel as well, though it's something no one seems to want to criticize or even point out because he's, well, Tolkien. The popular Christian answer of "it's a mystery, just take our word for it that it's all to the good" is a recurring theme in the Silmarillion and probably elsewhere in his work. It's not surprising that he held back from trying to give a complete and cogent answer in his correspondence, much less have any of his characters ask why Eru Illuvatar and the Valar let such suffering occur.
The Catholic answer to that question that he would have been most familiar with is the one of Thomas Aquinas. That is 1. God Being itself, 2. Existence is received being and is Good which means God is good, 3. Evil is an absence of good, 4. Love is to will the good of the other as other, 5. For love to exist it must be free will and choice, 6. God chose to create humans in His image including a choice which is usually symbolized by the fruit tree in the garden, 7. In allowing this choice He allowed a greater good, 8. In the fall we chose to make ourselves God defining good and evil which means in our freedom we separated from Him, 9. He did not leave us in this condition and sought out redemption through covenants with Israel then in the fullness of time His Son became incarnate, 10. In His life, death and resurrection our Human Nature is perfected, 11. Through an act of our will turning to God through Christ the damage of sin can be not only repaired but lifted higher because while Jesus is human He is also Divine, 12. That because God is infinite goodness, being, and love the end result is an even greater good than what the original would have been.
This is why Gollum is the one who eventually destroyed the ring, in his greatest depravity an even greater good for the freedom of Middle Earth was allowed.
@@homeonegreen9 I'm familiar with the usual explanations, and so I'm also familiar with why they're internally inconsistent without relying on some form of "shut up, stop thinking, just believe".
@@homeonegreen9 We've heard all that more than once, but thanks. Fortunately, Tolkien knew better than to include any of those tired arguments in the stories. "It's a mystery, don't worry about it" is no better logically but far more effective for a narrative focusing on the struggles of the characters.
Your statement about Gollum oversimplifies the story greatly.
@@QuantumHistorian They're not internally inconsistent, they're just able to be challenged if you work from a different framework from Christianity.
Beautifully said, and thank you for the considered depth of this.
Great analysis and overview. Well done, Robert.
I believe the orcs were corrupted elves. Somewhere I read that because of the Melkor element in all materials, the elves' hroa (physical body) are a bit corrupted, and they actually do decay slowly in Middle Earth.
But the orcs have a far higher concentration of this Melkor element, so their bodies decay and they have a similar lifespan to Men. Only instead of passing outside of the circles of the world they remain imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos, awaiting their role in the Final Battle, and some kind of salvation.
This explains how from the seemingly immortal elves, we have mortal orcs, even though Melkor obviously couldn't fiddle with the Gift of Men.
Yes orginally but how did Orcs manage to exist for thousands and thousands of years up until sometime in the 4th Age? How were they bred past that first generation of corrupted Elves I wonder?
I do believe that orcs, and the other baddies such as trolls and Shelob, do indeed have souls, and that there is an "orc hell," at least for those creatures.
I also believe that no creature is irredeemable. I would think that there are some orcs who don't like what they're forced to do, and would rather live a peaceful life.
This is an excellent channel, with another awesome video. Thanks, Robert!
I like the way you are thinking. One of the few things I liked about Rings of Power was the humanization of the orcs in the last few episodes. They just seem to want a home land where they can get on with their own lives.
This is a really, really good one. I’m a relatively new fan of yours, love all your Ice and Fire stuff, and this video had me thinking about Tolkien as a person in a new way for the first time in a while.
I have a deep appreciation for your work, keep it up man!
I like to think that an orc is anything that had its soul harshly corrupted.
Also, one of the things I love about Tolkien is that sometimes things are left open for interpretation. It leaves room for conversation all these years later
❤🔥
This is more than just about orcs. Tolkien lived during some of the worst ideologies of dehumanization that we have experienced, and they still persist. Many people of his time questioned whether black people had souls, or Jews, or Roma. It is moral to kill an orc? Or, if they are redeemable, should an attempt be made to save them? Tolkien was torn on this issue, because if they indeed had souls then the morality of so many heroes and societies in his books would have to be called into question. When Legolas and Gimli compete on who can kill more orcs, or when Gondorians hunt orcs like wild beasts... We should take pause and ask if they could have acted better. In a way, by becoming like their enemies, they had allowed Morgoth's influence to survive. Indeed, many of the tragic heroes of the Silmarillion danced with their own dark sides, and reaped dark rewards. No doubt, creating orcs is the worst thing Morgoth has done.
There is no need to take pause to consider if they acted better.
Orcs had been actively destroying culture and peoples for thousands of years.
Gimli and Legolas probably figured that the gods can decide what to do with them when they arrive after having sent them there.
@@Cosper79 Exactly the same belief as the worst humans to have ever lived.
Yes...this is the major problem in creating races that are omni-evil, and probably why authors don't create races like that much any longer. Although LOTR is a masterpiece and classic of writing. This is it's major downfall. It's kind of a symbol of the times that Tolkien lived in. I very much suspect that he would have written LOTR very differently had he lived in our time...
@@fransmith3255 haha yeah would it look like ROP?
@fransmith3255 what I always find scary is that when faced with a fictional ultra evil race some people identify and sympathize with them.
Quite telling.
Brilliantly done, thanks for the video😄
Well written, and your ending is profound, and I think extremely perceptive about Tolkein and his approach.
I would love to know what you think about the attack on Elronds wife. Orcs seem to be envolved but were they guided by someone? Attacking her was a blow to both Lothlorien and Rivendale. I wonder if Sauron had a hand in this.
The metaphysics of the soullessness of animals is super catholic
Honestly love Tolkien’s answer on this. From his point of view, the history of middle earth was something he stumbled upon, he did not create the world in his eyes, thus he was not in a place to speculate and judge the fate of the orcs, that was a job for god almighty in his eyes.
Thank you, your videos are always so well presented, and clearly deeply researched.
"Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side"
Is Gorbag talking about the abyss/hell when he quotes this dark on the other side? So they (orcs) believe in "life after death"? That they have a immortal soul?
They don't go to Heaven where the angels fly
This is excellent. I would believe that Tolkien would believe that any sentient being was capable of redemption, and it looks like that was where he was going even if he never said it. I'm not sure about animals, however. You can't have conversations with animals, like Beorn, and say they don't have a soul.
🎶 Where do bad folks go when they die 🎶
Heard this in Kurt Cobain's voice.
An interesting question, since what is considered bad and sinful changes from century to century.
Animals have no soul? Others may disagree, but I've known several dogs, cats and horses that I would say definitely had souls.
There's a difference between soul as in feelings, memory and individual character, being capable of grief etc.; and soul as in the immortal spiritual basis of a human being. Can animals pray, completely change their behaviour, feel retrospective shame for their actions, ask forgiveness for something they did 10 years ago? I'm not saying Christians think animals are somehow worse than people, a lot of Christians I know stress kindness to animals and seeing them as individuals.
@@martavdz4972 Marta, believe what you will; if you don't mind, I'll do the same.
@@martavdz4972 Question: why is any of what you listed relevant? Christians may not believe that animals have souls, but countless other religions do. I've also known some unbelievably narcissistic people, who literally did not experience the emotion of shame. I suppose they don't have souls, according to your criteria?
@@TheSuperRatt The reason it's relevant is because LOTR was made from a Christian perspective.
The Ents also believed that Orcs were bred from the Eldar. If this is true, Orcs go to Mandos, only Erü can alter the gifts of Erü- it also means they are immortal.
None of the origin stories feature in The Book of Lost Tales make sense outside of them more than likely being fundamentally Elves. Orcs didn't show up in Middle Earth until "shortly" after The Elves awakened at Cuievien(sp?). The Elves handed down stories of how their brethern who wandered alone or in smalle groups into the dark woods started disappearing which also coincided with the sightings of two mysterious entities both called respectively The Dark Rider and The Hunter who were both suspected by the Elves (assuming they weren't different names for the same Entity) of hunt8ng down and capturing wayward elves either came across. Then "shortly" afterwards there were rumors of monsterous beings roaming the wilds of Middle Earth that no one had seen before....followed by the official reveal of Orcs during the battle under the stars. All of this happened thousands of years before the first rising of The Sun, so they couldn't possibly be bread from the race of Men and we know that Orcs appeared before the awakening of the Dwarves.
The thing you have to keep in mind here is that Tolkien didn't see the immortality of the elves to be a blessing. The "Doom of Men" was a gift - they get to leave the material world and go on to, we assume, heaven (Tolkien deliberately does not say as much, but the implication is clear). To suppose that elves corrupted into orcs would lose the gift of immortality (which is probably the first idea most people would have) is, therefore, to misunderstand how Tolkien viewed immortality. This then presents us with a dilemma. The immortality of elves, while not a gift in Tolkien's eyes, still seems too good for orcs. But you can't have orcs going to heaven with men. So where do they go? Being imprisoned in the Halls of Mandos for eternity is probably the best answer that is available. (There is, of course, an unanswered question of where evil men go - orcs could, perhaps, go there.)
Why assume that there is a separate end-point for good and evil Men in the first place, when no such thing is alluded to in the material? All Men die, after all.
@@TheSuperRatt I'm not assuming there is, but it seems likely that in Tolkien's mind, there was. His Christian beliefs shaped his mythology - the world of his mythology was this world ("at a different stage of imagining") and he believed in the Christian heaven and hell as being where men of this world go when they die. He talked about their souls being able to leave this world being a gift from Eru to men. It seems likely that it was a gift only for those that were worthy of it and a less desirable fate awaited the rest.
@@thomasdalton1508 He wrote that the souls men would journey beyond the Circles of the World. That doesn't say to me that they all ended up in one place.
@@istari0 Indeed. He left it very open. I'm sure his own view was of something very similar to the Christian heaven and hell where the righteous are blessed with being in the presence of God.
They Don't Go to heaven where the Angels fly. They go to a lake of fire and Fry, see them again on the 4th of July
My dad read lotr and the hobbit every year till his death. He was 2/3 the way through the hobbit when he died. I have the book, with the bookmark still in. My dad swears he heard this from tolkien, on radio or TV or something, but anyways, the idea is that orcs in death become who the should have been before the fate of corruption, and exist in the halls of mandos discovering who they are, as they wait for the next song
Outstanding content as always
I am reminded of Zoroastrian theology regarding wolves, which are sometimes held to be the creations of the evil god Ahriman, later made holy by the intervention of the creator-god Ohrmazd. Interestingly, I believe some Zoroastrian texts hold that Ahriman cannot create, and that wolves are instead a perversion or corruption of creatures created by Ohrmazd.
In both cases, wolves are ultimately redeemed by the benevolence of the creator god, hence the domestication of the dog, a holy animal. I don't think this actually informs Tolkien's lore, but it is comforting to imagine that the orcs might finally know some respite in the afterlife. Theirs is a very cruel and sad existence.
So the orcs will only find redemption in being made slaves to Man?
@@TheSuperRatt "Domestication" was probably the wrong word to use here, I was referring to the domestication of dogs as a phenomenon separate from the theology. Dogs are certainly not viewed as slaves or subservient in that religion.
I am sure there are other "evil creatures" that were redeemed in some other way, but wolves came to mind first
Thanks for the video.
Hello again my friend. This is one of those portions of our legendariums that differ greatly. I have zero doubts about the ending fates of Orcs when they fall. During Arithorund "The Waking Age" of Erda the Orcs were created by one the Greater Gods, Dokeen. They were thus conscripted the broken lands and foothills, lands between the hills (Halflings), forests (Elves), and plains (Men) and the rugged mountains (Dwarves). When they fall, whether in battle (which the males obviously prefer) or by illness or age, their souls travel to their version of heaven, at the feet of Dokeen.
A very interesting topic and a great presentation of it.
This is a well thought out argument, and the article itself well-structured.
I tend to go with the Silmarillian, as it was a joint project of Christopher and his father, even though JRRT died before it was finished.
Into an Orc cooking pot,.. "Looks like meat's back on the menu boys!"
I remember hearing and reading that Mr. Tolkien intended for Frodo and Sam to meet a group of kind orcs. That would have been something.
Considering that Tolkien was a devout Catholic who believed in redemption for all, an afterlife that gives them a chance to escape their nature seems likely.
Great answer, I liked it!
This is a great topic
Fantastic stuff.
I really enjoyed listening to this video!
Thank you for sharing Tolkiens musings and offering some thoight provoking insights!
Be well, friend!