My story shares many similarities to Rosemary's but from the perspective of a survivor of extensive ECT treatments and a troubled, average American family. Thank you so much for sparking this conversation. I just found this and am absolutely in awe of the rawness and love shown. ❤ Thank you.
Rosemary was born with brain damage for being held into the birth canal . She wouldn’t have happened to her if she was born when she was trying to be born . And what they’ve done just escalated the issues and failed their daughter completely . Rose should have had her child without waiting for the dr to arrive at the house for the birth . Today that would have been considered to be a lawsuit case
I can so relate to Rosemary Kennedy because, like her, I have been diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disability (it was in the 8th grade. I suspect it's Asperger's Syndrome, but I'm not 100% sure though.) and several mental illnesses. Thankfully, I'm being treated appropriately for my mental illnesses when it comes to the appropriate meds and therapy. It's so sad that Rosemary Kennedy was shipped around from school to school instead of her parents giving a particular school a chance and helping things move along in the right direction for her education as far as helping her with her homework in a way that would have been so very helpful to Rosemary. I can't imagine how hard it was for Rosemary to grow up in a society where it was such a stigma to have a learning disability and to have a diagnosed mental illness. That being said, I totally agree that we still need to talk about mental illness so that people are educated about the true facts for mental illness as well as being educated about the various learning disabilities that are diagnosed.
The child was born with brain damage from not being delivered correctly waiting for a dr to arrive to deliver Rosemary . I think she would have been alright if the process of natural birthing would have been done . That’s so sad that she was held in the birth canal for 2 hours before delivery . That’s heartbreaking and sad
yeah, rose spent alot of dedicated time with rosemary only in efforts to try and '' fix'' her instead of genuine love and acceptance and respect... and once they realized they could not '' fix'' her... they dumped her and hid her away.... hell notice even years after... she was hardly eer, or never even mentioned in documentaries or writings....and they kept her well hidden out of public eye....
I read a lot of criticism here of how this was handled by the Kennedys several decades ago, but institutionalizing the "mentally retarded" was the "norm" back then, and not just for the rich. To this day I have an adult second cousin who lives in a State-run institution where he has been since about age 1 or 2 years old. His very-loving parents would go see him often but parents in that era were not equipped or educated about taking care of their special-needs children and doctors would counsel them to put them in a facility with trained caretakers, for the sake of the child and so that the home life of the rest of the family could be more "normal." And of course now it's our "choice" to just kill them before they are born since they're "defective" (Downs Syndrome, etc.), so how is that any better?
I think Joe should be blamed significantly for his actions and how he treated her . I can’t think of any circumstance as a parent where I would go through with that terrible procedure on one of my kids no matter how difficult or challenged they were.. I don’t think she was brain damaged to the point to where she couldn’t be a functional adult in society anyways . If you read her letters, they are coherent even if the hand writing is lacking . She was getting into her early 20s, becoming more active sexually, sneaking out at night . I think he didn’t want Rosemary to shame the family and ruin his sons political careers . This is very disgusting as a child’s life should be much more important than the family image, I think he was embarrassed of her which is heartbreaking because she loved him and her mother so much . It’s just tragic because of how misunderstood mental illness was at the time, and to see pictures of her, how beautiful she was, how joyful and happy she seems despite her difficulties, and to know it was before such a tragic thing that essentially destroyed who she was . I wish it never happened to her, I wish we could see what she would’ve done with her life if it wasn’t stolen from her . A lobotomy is just something that should never be done to a sentient being, I hope that Walter freeman is burning in hell for popularizing that barbaric practice . And then after, when adequate medicine was finally available, he refused to give up the practice and continued doing it. What a scumbag of the highest order .
In the history of Central State Mental Hospital in Kentucky (established July 1, 1871) cites: "Keeping up with the latest in psychiatric treatment found similar mental hospitals, Central State began using new and in some cases, what would today seem barbaric treatments in the mid-1930’s. These included various types of “shock therapy” such as insulin, and electroconvulsive or electroshock therapy. The notorious partial or frontal lobotomy would also find its way into use at Central State around this time, a practice that continued until the 1960’s when its usage was finally deemed harmful and inhumane." I don't know that we can judge Joe Kennedy by today's standards, when medical doctors were advocating this, and other, "treatments" for mental heath, which they did not understand how to treat. I suspect that family members approved this procedure hoping it would improve that person's life.
@@OneTwo-kc4ui Thoughtful and important comment. It is important to understand the real life situation at the time, and what was known, and what was still unknown. Rosemary's lobotomy was clearly a mistake, but the alternatives at that time, were few and not at all promising. Remember Rosemary was full grown and was becoming violent with staff and family members. The kinds of mood medication's available today which might have been used to calm Rosemary's anger and depression were not available in the 1940's.
It is very dangerous to base someone's personality and intelligence based on their written word. learning disabilities can cause very capable people to write in a stilted, brief manner to shorten the struggle they have with encoding their thoughts into the written word. Makes me wonder if she just had serious ADHD with intellectual disabilities. Especially back then, with the treatment of women and how women could be committed so easily based on their behaviour, I take with a large grain of salt any nun's or wealthy parents interpretations of her behaviour.
I wonder how the family approached the news to Rosemary of her sibling's deaths over the years when she was out of contact - Joe Jr., Kathleen, Jack, Bobby? She must have wondered where they were, or how she would have handled the understanding of why they were gone? :-(
Já ouvi e assisti muito sobre os Kennedy com suas tragédias mas não entendi como uma família inteira pais irmãos cunhadas todos cometeram aquele absurdo contra a filha Rosemary fazendo essa tal lobotomia
Let's speak about expectations! The only expectations Joe Kennedy had for his children was winning. Rosemary was an embarrassment to him and the family as far as he was concerned. Jimmy Hoffa was right about Joe Kennedy being a bootlegger!!!
I think that it is wrong to speak of Mr. Kennedy "silencing" Rosemary, I have read that she was running away and being very belligerent, so she needed to be reigned in somehow. You cannot give second sight to Mr. Kennedy, he didn't know that things would go wrong. I'm sure he thought she would come out of this milder and more pliable. Mrs. Kennedy had many other children to care for at home, I think she may have listened to her husband, and not visited Rosemary with the feeling---or was told--- that it wouldn't be beneficial to her daughter and might be upsetting for herself. In relating the story of Mrs. Kennedy coming out to Wisconsin and seeing Rosemary after several years, one cannot say that Rosemary rounding on her mother was anger or hatred. People with disabilities such as Rosemary are very often not in control of their actions, feelings, and senses. With all the excitement of her mother coming to see her, she probably didn't have control of her emotions. My aunt Sharon Ann, was in an institution after her diagnosis of "mental retardation" as a child. My mother's family was changed by the way they were treated by other people---other kids were not allowed to play with them. Life is very different when you live in a house where all the doors had to be locked etc. I think that Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy did their very best, and one cannot fault them, we have to put ourselves into the way things were at the time, and not try to use modern day thinking to cloud judgment.
Yes, Joseph Sr. really didn't expect Rosemary would become that way but he had been warned. The American Medical Association had advised him for not to have her lobotomized, for even though being a revolutionary method it was too invasive and they wondered about all the possible harm it could bring about. So, Joe Sr. realized to do it because he didn't want to have more work regarding her, and told nothing to the family about his decision for he knew they'd never accept that terrible surgery.
To not see your child for 20 years by choice is unforgivable, selfish and just rotten! Rose Kennedy was not a warm and nurturing mother - JFK himself said as much!
They had to quote Kate Clifford “more money than God” the Kennedys had the resources and the power to help their daughter and they chose lobotomize Rosemary. Joe chose what was easy and what would make Rosemary “normal”. Rosemary flourish under the instruction of the Montessori technique and the Kennedys could have continued that schooling in the US. I call BS on “they did the best they could”.
I agree with you. In reading the book I was struck by how Rose wanted to help Rosemary initially but in the end she seemed to be resigned to fate, handing Rosemary off to various schools and camp in a way to not have to deal with her anymore, all while vacationing abroad and in the US. In the end we can't make a argument that the parents did the right thing especially given the fact that evidence suggests that Rosemary had flourished under the Montessori teaching method and the parents knew this. I think the parents became exhausted, frustrated, and quite honestly preoccupied with things that they felt more important than Rosemary's well being. It seems Rose quit on Rosemary and Joe became impatient.
The politic working on wave be get one trade this see earn and international to be come national so social too and act count norm make fluck to wise earn this in the key tour trading money.
My story shares many similarities to Rosemary's but from the perspective of a survivor of extensive ECT treatments and a troubled, average American family. Thank you so much for sparking this conversation. I just found this and am absolutely in awe of the rawness and love shown. ❤ Thank you.
What happened to Rosemary Kennedy is just so sad.
Chris Mc Evoy a
Rosemary was born with brain damage for being held into the birth canal . She wouldn’t have happened to her if she was born when she was trying to be born . And what they’ve done just escalated the issues and failed their daughter completely . Rose should have had her child without waiting for the dr to arrive at the house for the birth . Today that would have been considered to be a lawsuit case
Heartbreaking story of Rosemary. Ty for telling us about her.
What a lovely way to describe Rosemary--a muse. She certainly was and will continue to be.
I can so relate to Rosemary Kennedy because, like her, I have been diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disability (it was in the 8th grade. I suspect it's Asperger's Syndrome, but I'm not 100% sure though.) and several mental illnesses. Thankfully, I'm being treated appropriately for my mental illnesses when it comes to the appropriate meds and therapy. It's so sad that Rosemary Kennedy was shipped around from school to school instead of her parents giving a particular school a chance and helping things move along in the right direction for her education as far as helping her with her homework in a way that would have been so very helpful to Rosemary. I can't imagine how hard it was for Rosemary to grow up in a society where it was such a stigma to have a learning disability and to have a diagnosed mental illness. That being said, I totally agree that we still need to talk about mental illness so that people are educated about the true facts for mental illness as well as being educated about the various learning disabilities that are diagnosed.
The child was born with brain damage from not being delivered correctly waiting for a dr to arrive to deliver Rosemary . I think she would have been alright if the process of natural birthing would have been done . That’s so sad that she was held in the birth canal for 2 hours before delivery . That’s heartbreaking and sad
yeah, rose spent alot of dedicated time with rosemary only in efforts to try and '' fix'' her instead of genuine love and acceptance and respect... and once they realized they could not '' fix'' her... they dumped her and hid her away.... hell notice even years after... she was hardly eer, or never even mentioned in documentaries or writings....and they kept her well hidden out of public eye....
I just got done reading this book, its really good. I am looking forward to reading her book on Eunice Kennedy
This story is so incredibly disturbing. I noticed that the doctor's notes which detail the lobotomy are no longer online
Lots of kids “act out” but, you don’t lobotomize them!
That was the ignorant thinking back then.
I read a lot of criticism here of how this was handled by the Kennedys several decades ago, but institutionalizing the "mentally retarded" was the "norm" back then, and not just for the rich. To this day I have an adult second cousin who lives in a State-run institution where he has been since about age 1 or 2 years old. His very-loving parents would go see him often but parents in that era were not equipped or educated about taking care of their special-needs children and doctors would counsel them to put them in a facility with trained caretakers, for the sake of the child and so that the home life of the rest of the family could be more "normal." And of course now it's our "choice" to just kill them before they are born since they're "defective" (Downs Syndrome, etc.), so how is that any better?
I think Joe should be blamed significantly for his actions and how he treated her . I can’t think of any circumstance as a parent where I would go through with that terrible procedure on one of my kids no matter how difficult or challenged they were.. I don’t think she was brain damaged to the point to where she couldn’t be a functional adult in society anyways . If you read her letters, they are coherent even if the hand writing is lacking . She was getting into her early 20s, becoming more active sexually, sneaking out at night . I think he didn’t want Rosemary to shame the family and ruin his sons political careers . This is very disgusting as a child’s life should be much more important than the family image, I think he was embarrassed of her which is heartbreaking because she loved him and her mother so much . It’s just tragic because of how misunderstood mental illness was at the time, and to see pictures of her, how beautiful she was, how joyful and happy she seems despite her difficulties, and to know it was before such a tragic thing that essentially destroyed who she was . I wish it never happened to her, I wish we could see what she would’ve done with her life if it wasn’t stolen from her . A lobotomy is just something that should never be done to a sentient being, I hope that Walter freeman is burning in hell for popularizing that barbaric practice . And then after, when adequate medicine was finally available, he refused to give up the practice and continued doing it. What a scumbag of the highest order .
In the history of Central State Mental Hospital in Kentucky (established July 1, 1871) cites: "Keeping up with the latest in psychiatric treatment found similar mental hospitals, Central State began using new and in some cases, what would today seem barbaric treatments in the mid-1930’s. These included various types of “shock therapy” such as insulin, and electroconvulsive or electroshock therapy. The notorious partial or frontal lobotomy would also find its way into use at Central State around this time, a practice that continued until the 1960’s when its usage was finally deemed harmful and inhumane." I don't know that we can judge Joe Kennedy by today's standards, when medical doctors were advocating this, and other, "treatments" for mental heath, which they did not understand how to treat. I suspect that family members approved this procedure hoping it would improve that person's life.
@@OneTwo-kc4ui Thoughtful and important comment. It is important to understand the real life situation at the time, and what was known, and what was still unknown. Rosemary's lobotomy was clearly a mistake, but the alternatives at that time, were few and not at all promising. Remember Rosemary was full grown and was becoming violent with staff and family members. The kinds of mood medication's available today which might have been used to calm Rosemary's anger and depression were not available in the 1940's.
Just admit it. Joe and Rose were both sociopaths.
Joe had a lust for power. He was in bed with Al Capone during the 1920s.
They wanted perfect children. No one is perfect! They seem to run their family with only being happy if they were doing only what the parents wanted.
I think the mother was the most cruel,,rosemary should left alone 😔
It is very dangerous to base someone's personality and intelligence based on their written word. learning disabilities can cause very capable people to write in a stilted, brief manner to shorten the struggle they have with encoding their thoughts into the written word. Makes me wonder if she just had serious ADHD with intellectual disabilities.
Especially back then, with the treatment of women and how women could be committed so easily based on their behaviour, I take with a large grain of salt any nun's or wealthy parents interpretations of her behaviour.
I wonder how the family approached the news to Rosemary of her sibling's deaths over the years when she was out of contact - Joe Jr., Kathleen, Jack, Bobby? She must have wondered where they were, or how she would have handled the understanding of why they were gone? :-(
Good book good author good host agree wholeheartedly mental illness is neglected
Great another video that's barely audible
JCB agreed
Já ouvi e assisti muito sobre os Kennedy com suas tragédias mas não entendi como uma família inteira pais irmãos cunhadas todos cometeram aquele absurdo contra a filha Rosemary fazendo essa tal lobotomia
Eunice, stop knocking on the podium.
It’s her necklace
Due to the problem ofrosemary , Eunice realize the special olympics , starting with the camps "SHRIVER" that were organized on the family farm .
+Claubeth hernandez martinez
That's the one good thing that came from this.
If an RN did that today holding the baby God help that license
upss
of rosemary
What was her disability?
Watts was the DNA doctir
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻😊😊
Let's speak about expectations! The only expectations Joe Kennedy had for his children was winning. Rosemary was an embarrassment to him and the family as far as he was concerned. Jimmy Hoffa was right about Joe Kennedy being a bootlegger!!!
I think that it is wrong to speak of Mr. Kennedy "silencing" Rosemary, I have read that she was running away and being very belligerent, so she needed to be reigned in somehow. You cannot give second sight to Mr. Kennedy, he didn't know that things would go wrong. I'm sure he thought she would come out of this milder and more pliable. Mrs. Kennedy had many other children to care for at home, I think she may have listened to her husband, and not visited Rosemary with the feeling---or was told--- that it wouldn't be beneficial to her daughter and might be upsetting for herself. In relating the story of Mrs. Kennedy coming out to Wisconsin and seeing Rosemary after several years, one cannot say that Rosemary rounding on her mother was anger or hatred. People with disabilities such as Rosemary are very often not in control of their actions, feelings, and senses. With all the excitement of her mother coming to see her, she probably didn't have control of her emotions. My aunt Sharon Ann, was in an institution after her diagnosis of "mental retardation" as a child. My mother's family was changed by the way they were treated by other people---other kids were not allowed to play with them. Life is very different when you live in a house where all the doors had to be locked etc. I think that Mr. and Mrs. Kennedy did their very best, and one cannot fault them, we have to put ourselves into the way things were at the time, and not try to use modern day thinking to cloud judgment.
Yes, Joseph Sr. really didn't expect Rosemary would become that way but he had been warned. The American Medical Association had advised him for not to have her lobotomized, for even though being a revolutionary method it was too invasive and they wondered about all the possible harm it could bring about. So, Joe Sr. realized to do it because he didn't want to have more work regarding her, and told nothing to the family about his decision for he knew they'd never accept that terrible surgery.
To not see your child for 20 years by choice is unforgivable, selfish and just rotten! Rose Kennedy was not a warm and nurturing mother - JFK himself said as much!
They had to quote Kate Clifford “more money than God” the Kennedys had the resources and the power to help their daughter and they chose lobotomize Rosemary. Joe chose what was easy and what would make Rosemary “normal”. Rosemary flourish under the instruction of the Montessori technique and the Kennedys could have continued that schooling in the US. I call BS on “they did the best they could”.
True
I agree with you. In reading the book I was struck by how Rose wanted to help Rosemary initially but in the end she seemed to be resigned to fate, handing Rosemary off to various schools and camp in a way to not have to deal with her anymore, all while vacationing abroad and in the US. In the end we can't make a argument that the parents did the right thing especially given the fact that evidence suggests that Rosemary had flourished under the Montessori teaching method and the parents knew this. I think the parents became exhausted, frustrated, and quite honestly preoccupied with things that they felt more important than Rosemary's well being. It seems Rose quit on Rosemary and Joe became impatient.
Have no respect for Joe or Rose Kennedy. Liked JFK and RFK and now Eunice Kennedy.
The politic working on wave be get one trade this see earn and international to be come national so social too and act count norm make fluck to wise earn this in the key tour trading money.
Lobotomy