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BTW a lot of those people who make copies in Asia if you ask them they'll stop. It all depends. Since I'm engineer and i went to electronic scholl for 4 years, to be honest a lot of pedals are copy paste of old ones with added extra switch or pot. Changing a value of few component's and they are ''designers''. You can do that as well, and you can learn to ''design'' pedals in max few days. to be honest i don't undersnat how people accpet justifayings of some brands that their pedals must be in a price range of 200US$ or more. It's a matter of someone's desire to make a larger profit, and a lot of them became wealthy... Pedals are simple. One Lap top is far more complex, and i can't even compare it with some pedals, but still you can get a OK office Lap Top for like 300-400$Us and you have digal pedals that cost more ☺ ...So there are such myths in a guitar industry .....
I believe the tube screamer is a clone of the original boss ds1 which came out in 1977 and the tube screamer 808 coming in 1979. Josh from JHS talked about it in a video.
My view has always been that the generics are a great thing, they make over-priced or boutique pedals affordable to most people... But... They shouldnt look EXACTLY like the name brand... THAT is plagiarism. (Although i own the 66 and the Precision Drive by Demonfx) Nice work, TD! (Even though I caught you calling the Powerball a Fireball. :)
I think Misha comes from serious wealth, even as a kid on the seven string forum he was blowing through like 30 custom shop guitars a year. Great player/producer, dude just LOVES flexing money like no one else since yngwie
@@caspay21 Right, his father is the minister of finance for Mauritius. He’s an economist and has made multi millions from investing in Tesla. They also lived in one of the wealthiest areas in Bethesda Maryland. They’re loaded.
For me there is nothing wrong with Misha having money (he clearly worked hard for it and is very talented), but the constant flaunting of it I find in poor taste.
The guitar industry is built on copying each other's products and sometimes making slight tweaks here and there so its kind of whatever to me. Look at all the tube screamer copies. We can also look at other products, like all the JCM 800 copies and amps inspired by it, all the cheap Stratocaster copies, and so on. I think its a bigger deal in the guitar community when a company tries to prevent others from copying them or even creating inspired by designs, like Gibson and all their lawsuits. As someone that owns 2 Horizon Precision Drives, I think this copy by DemonFX is awesome cause it'll help kids and players on a budget get their hands on an awesome pedal without the insane Periphery mark-up.
If a cloning company can produce a "so close you can hardly tell the difference" pedal at a fraction of the price of the original then what's unethical is the cost for the original.
Not entirely true. The costs in developing a guitar pedal is pretty high. When you clone a circuit exactly you don't have much R&D costs that need to be made up. Besides that Horizon Devices doesn't make their own pedals, so a part of their margin goes to MXR.
This is the exact discussion I had with someone about the new Behringer rack compressor that is a clone of a 40 year old Neve compressor which they still sell today at around $4K, and Behringer sells it for $500. Neve is a top brand and has a brand name, quality, warranty, and service attached to protect, but at a price. If your willing to accept less quality and less service then the Behringer fits the bill. Is it wrong, well Neve had 40 year to recoup their cost of design, engineering so double the normal patent length. The same with a Versace purse, you can pay 4K for brand recognition or buy a knock off that probably isn't as nice but is good enough. In the end most people would never be able to afford the Neve, so it's allowing people without that kind of budget, and never would have, to get into the game. Those people would never have bought the Neve in first place so they aren't losing sales.
It also depends on who is making it as in where it is made. Something made in the USA, Japan, or most European countries will have better paid workers. Alternatively, if it's built in China, the workers aren't getting paid as much. So it's not always a matter of a greedy company. Don't get me wrong, plenty of companies in basically every country have a poor rate of how much the top level people (the bosses and owners etc...) get vs. what the average worker who actually built the products get.
Yeeeeaaah, 'cause research & development, marketing and supporting your product in various ways costs absolutely nothing. Nah, companies like DemonFX and Behringer can F right off. I'll never give them a ¢.
Draven Noire compared the 66 to the 33 going as far as playing the same di through them and phase inverting one, and they canceled each other. It's the same pedal. Honestly, if the 33 was cheaper, I would get one. But nothing justifies selling it for 10x more. So, I'm glad I got a 66.
@@HAHb-zc2dp if there's one company I'm fine with being ripped off it's Fortin. The guy built his brand with a rip-off of the Larry Dino, so I can't feel bad for him getting the same courtesy.
@@HAHb-zc2dp Ah, I misread what you said. You were saying fuck Fortin. Thought you were saying fuck whoever copies Fortin, which I disagreed with. We agree then 😂
The problem with patenting circuit schematics and PCB design is that functional blocks from which guitar pedals and (basically every electronic device) are basically non-patentable. Most of them consists of general building blocks which everyone can learn from textbooks (like The Art of Electronics). The only thing that could be patentable is general idea of device (a block diagram) but that still does not protect the device idea from being stolen. In most cases you can get to the same functionality by using different integrated circuits or even different functional blocks like for example every IoT device - it always has some kind of microcontroller and bunch of sensors/buttons/LCDs. You can try to protect the circuit by filling the enclosure with some kind of resin or epoxy but if someone wants to steal your IP then its only gonna slow them down. Changing topic - I don't understand why pedal makers still insist to put old JRC4588 Opamp in 2024 - there are much better alternatives especially considering that op amp does not add anything to sound if is chosen properly.
If Demon fx just changes the looks of their pedals, this wouldn't be that much big of a deal. They commiting Trade Dress infringement , which is probably the reason they sell as many pedals as they do (aside from the cheaper price). Just saw their newest Keeley's Caverns clone and omg they dont even try to change anything even a little on the graphics of the the pedal.
i've just stared playing guitar ~1 year ago, and your channel has aided me so much in the equipment i should/shouldn't get, thank you so much for being a badass !
As a builder I was absolutely shocked to realize schematics, layouts and more are not subject to patents or trademarks. Only names and graphics are, and that’s if someone can enforce it. That being said, as a builder I do everything I can to add more to anything that’s a “xxxxx-alike” or whatever you want to call it. As it turns out. Many many old school designs used op amps and components very effectively.
So it looks like you can technically patent a circuit if it’s new and has some novelty. But again, costly and you’d have to pay to enforce it if someone directly copied it, but it’s so easy to slightly change one element and not infringe on the patent, so what’s the point 🤷♂️
I think this video brings a lot to the table in terms of factual information to have in mind while tone chasing. Apart from the moral debate of clones, the Demonfx pedal costs a quarter of the price, while having better "materials" (which I assume means better capacitors, resistors and chips) and being true bypass which many people tend to believe makes gear better (it doesn't). Tone cultist can't deny the clone in this case is just better in every way but they won't do it because is not the original. Even when we all know the Precision Drive is a Tube Screamer copy itself. I prefer to buy clones myself because they sound identical and I cannot justify 200$ for a pedal when I need like 5 of them in the rig I'm building.
Gonna go out on a limb here, I honestly don't mind the "clones". Had these "clones" been around for me 20 years ago I would have saved A SHIT TON OF MONEY! I'm guilty of buying some new "clones". I am not really affected by what or who did what. I saved money from these new pedals. 🤷
Way back in the day there was a series called rocktek and they were kind of like a predecessor to behringer. I had a few of those cuz it was like thirty or forty bucks for a chorus pedal and the other option was a used boss or dod for a hundred bucks at the pawn shop. Best distortion I ever had tho was the soundtrack model of Ibanez classic metal pedal. Those were another plastic enclosure budget pedal line before the dano minis came out.
@@joeydurant6267 Man I remember scraping up change anyway I could to buy my brand new Big Muff fuzz pedal. To the point I started recycling beer cans and soda cans. I was excited to get it. Only for it to get stolen a week later. I cried. Not gonna lie.
@@theglitch_713 had a lawsuit era Electra sg copy that got stolen from a party one night that I still keep an eye out for in my little hillbilly hometown.
The tolerances of the tone pot (range, and exact frequency) are a little different between them, and tbf that can happen even between two of the same pedal made by the same brand, from the same assembly line batch. This accounts for what I presume you're hearing, when you say 'sounds cheaper" if you're hearing what I'm hearing and vice versa.
From an engineering pov some things are objectively better because they are measurable: THD, noise floor, power efficiency etc From an aesthetic pov the specs go out the window - tube amps are still prized above all else _because the mind is the slave of the passions, and not the other way around._
I have a Joyo Argos. the thing is, they haven't stolen a customer from Horizon Devices cos there's no way I'd have spent what they want but I'm absolutely down for chucking £35 at amazon and giving the Argos a try. It's actually a decent pedal and I use it instead of my Tube Screamer sometimes.
Tube guitar amps were never "invented". The very first models were implementations of the schematics as printed in the RCA handbook. Leo Fender was an engineer, not an inventor. So all guitar amps are basically "clones" of other amplifiers before them.
Not so sure about this conclusion. If I recall, the Mesa Boogie Mark I was based on a Fender Princeton, but additional gain stages were added. The Marshall JTM45 was based off a Fender Bassman. A (Fender) EVH 5150 III is obviously inspired by the Peavey original 5150, but the clean tones are vastly different. Amps may take inspiration from each other, but that doesn't mean they are clones. *When you start adding features so an amp's voicing and sound are totally different from its inspiration, the new amp becomes its own thing.* Doing what Behringer does--reverse engineering a popular product and then modifying it with a marginally different design to come to a similar result at a cheaper price point while avoiding patent infringement--is different. I would even argue Seymour Duncan reverse engineering the Dimebucker from a Bill Lawrence 500XL is a bit unethical and unfair to Bill. He at least deserved a royalty from the design since he was no longer affiliated with Bill Lawrence USA. But reverse engineering something apparently avoids the same legal obligations as licensing something. Saying one amp is a clone of all other amps is like saying a Ford Mustang is a clone of a Model T just because they are both cars and the Mustang came indirectly from the Model T. Maybe in that they both have four wheels they are clones, but they are sufficiently different enough to make them their own entities. An interesting discussion regarding clone vs. original is in the trademark dispute between Gibson and DiMarzio over the term "PAF." I think they're both wrong. PAF is a generic legal designation of patent applied for. People just started calling Gibson humbuckers PAFs for short. Furthermore, PAF designs were all over the place from the 50s-70s due to loose standards regarding windings, materials, and design. So every PAF from that time is somewhat unique depending upon year. Larry DiMarzio took one of his favorite sets of these PAFs from one of his favorite vintage guitars, tweaked the pickups, and started marketing it as DiMarzio's PAF line, claiming to own the trademark to the PAF name. But arguing over PAF is like car companies arguing over "sedan," "SUV," or "crossover." These are generic terms, not specific things that can be trademarked. So by that logic I think neither DiMarzio nor Gibson should own the term "PAF." They can call it a "DiMarzio PAF" or "Gibson PAF" if they like, but trademarking "PAF" alone is like trying to trademark "humbucker." It's just dumb.
@@AAAA-lt9hq OK, perhaps clones was the wrong word, but all tube guitar amps are basically variations on the same recipe. They mainly vary in ingredients, quantities and spices.
@@Synic42 I don't think they're "the same recipe," because if you vary the ingredients, quantities, and spices, you get a different recipe all together. :) Again it's like saying cars are the same because they all started as variations of horse drawn carriages. But electric cars are different from internal combustion engines to make each their own thing. But do amps borrow ideas from each other? Yes. What seems to be a contentious issue is exactly when that borrowing constitutes patent infringement. And I'd need a patent attorney for that.
@@AAAA-lt9hq Fenders are entirely derivative of RCA circuits, was the point. 🙄 Legally, the only thing that actually matters (concerning to whatever degree you or I feel that this or that amp is "it's own thing") is for a judge and jury to decide on in a per-case basis.
I bought the Joyo Argos and I"m super glad I did because for me it's definitely not a pedal worth what the Horizon costs. That being said I own many Demonfx pedals and so far they are all great and have saved me a ton of money. I'm just a hobbiest but I always thought if I were still gigging I might pay for some of the originals. Now after seeing the disection of the pedals, and hearing the comparisons, I"m not so sure. I will definitely contiue to give Demonfx my money for now.
I bought the demonfx after it was recommended via ads after i couldn't find a precision drive in stock anywhere and used ones were going for new prices. So blame google some for this too.
Your ears are playing tricks on you, "sounds cheaper" is a dead give away....you want to believe it sounds cheaper because its cheaper so that happens... its the same circuit brah....
My personal take sits somewhere in the middle. You can acknowledge a good design and want to replicate it, but you should add something that makes it stand out. If you think about, a lot of us do the same with music… you can like a riff enough that you use it in a song, but how you make it different is what makes you stand out. I think if a company takes that approach, they will also end up making some unique designs that will be noteworthy on their own just because they want to innovate and have the talent to pull it off.
Other countries don't recognize intellectual property ie copyright. China, Japan. IMO people get ripped off all the time. I feel that CNC Machining leveled the guitar manufacturers. So you can get a great Firefly, Leo Jamz, Donner, Also CLONES are good IMO. I like modifications to my guitars. I love Guitar Pedal Clones. Also the Boss Multiple Effects Pedal. My wife and I each purchased the Donner Arena Multiple Effects Pedal. Do what works for you. You do realize that large companies like Gibson Fender Boss etc all GIVE FREE GEAR PLUS PAY SPONSORS TO USE IT LIKE BIG BANDS... So Why should I subsidize this by paying more for a product. When I can get a product that does the same thing for less. Cheers 🍻🥃🥃🎸🎵🎶🎶🎶
My only issue is when the rip offs look exactly like the product they are ripping off. I have no problems with people making the same pedal. For example, the Fortin grind is literally an overpriced one knob tc integrated preamp. I have no problem buying a knockoff of that
My DemonFX Precision has a non-functioning battery compartment. If I gig with it I need to tape a 9v to the side and use an adaptor. I might just buy a backup since it was so cheap. Their Friedman clone is interesting. It will not work (for long) on 18v, but if you "blow it out" at 18v, it still works at 9. I took mine apart and found there is a gain responsive LED that is hidden among the knobs, as well as a seperate gain dial on the back end of the board. I drilled a hole on both sides of the enclosure, added a small window of plastic to see the LED react, and the hole on the back lets you use a small screwdriver to quickly fine-tune the gain for any instrument. There is an 18v version of the double-size pedal, I'm very curious to grab it.
The horizon devices doesn’t completely clamp down the entire signal it only works on a certain range of frequencies to help tighten up things so you would also find it letting some signal through even when clamped down. This is intentional and is only meant to supplement when the pedal is on to help with noise the pedal might add. Also I bought one used on reverb and it was having issues and when I contacted the manufacturer(dunlop) they actually repaired the pedal at no charge even though it wasn’t in warranty and I doubt the other company would provide customer service like that. For that reason alone I tend to try to stick with originals if I can help it. Thanks for the comparison video, the copy sounds pretty good I will say that. 🤘🤘🤘
There's definitely a limit to this, IMO the DemonFX pedal is going too far in straight up copying the Horizon pedal but as an example having a green overdrive pedal is totally reasonable and isn't ground for Ibanez to sue. Alluding to another pedal is one thing but to straight rip off not only the function but the entire design is unreasonable.
Tolerances can make each Precision drive sound different... The main thing though is the gate. The gate needed even more improvement. The problem with the Precision Drive gate is that it doesn't work well with high output pickups... It's too tame even maxed! It was probably designed to be used with the BKP Juggernauts... But even with just a Tone Zone, it's not super tight.
You do realize that 98% of the guitar pedals are made in China. Same with guitars amps. Why are we paying US Companies too dollars 💰💰💰 for products made in China Vietnam India Indonesia etc .. When you can buy from the company over there that makes the products for the US COMPANIES FOR 80%=90% LESS. So who is the Villain here Executive s making 7 figure salaries..
Manufacturing went over the Asia because Western consumers could no longer afford to buy gear that was manufactured domestically. Also, if I can find a vintage or used version of a real deal pedal that I know one of my influences used, why would I pay slightly less for a cheap, potentially unreliable knock off? Buying import copies makes sense if we're talking new North American/European gear. But if we're talking used name brand vs. new import copies--I'm not so sure. I'd rather just pay more and have the confidence of having the genuine, although used, article.
@@BackWoodsBillyCraftBeerReviews The Peavey episode of "Undercover Boss" covered all this. There is so much competition in the industry that profit margins are squeezed from every angle. Most of the music gear industry is not corporate, anyway. They are private companies and small builders who over decades of marketing have become known as gurus (Lee Jackson, Bob Bradshaw, Rob Turner, Seymour Duncan, Larry DiMarzio, Bruce Egnater, Bill Lawrence, etc., etc.). I would be more in favor of the corporate greed argument if these were publicly traded companies that could raise money through stock and investors. Most gear companies can't and don't do this. If anything limits the guitar industry itself it is the ability to sustainably and reliably source harder to find woods like ebony for fretboards. Export restrictions like wood from Madagascar drive up prices for builders. The biggest drain on many companies is marketing because there is so much competition, as well as the perception by players that paying more means better quality. You end up with each brand offering its products in pricing tiers, but not much downward pressure on price. Gear companies are also competing against their own used products from decades back. I can buy a budget/mid priced made in Japan guitar from the 90s-00s and upgrade the bridge and electronics to rival any American model. I can even add features like wiring options (phase/split/parallel/series/killswitch) that don't normally come stock on factory guitars. About the only way the industry has innovated in the last 10-20 years has been the embrace of extended range multi scale instruments. And even those are unacceptable for people like me who prefer floating bridges and more aggressive designs than 2 humbucker Strats.
@@AAAA-lt9hq Greed is Greed. Most small companies have investors they just are not publicly traded on an exchange 💱. See TV show shark tank. They provide seed money & or funds for expansion etc. in exchange for a piece of the company. They are silent partners. BTW IMO if you have a shareholders meeting you are a corporate entity. See business law partner ship sole or corporate all must have meetings required by LAW. MARSHALL is not Small neither is Laney Black Star Peavy has been proven greedy. Gibson Fender Jackson is part of fender Kramer is part of Gibson other than a few pedals amps & custom guitars most are infact corporate.
The key is being able to call or e-mail and communicate with the maker/distributor/seller _in the same language_ to get warranty or customer service of ANY kind. Furthermore, _the entire point of manufacturing in East-Asia is so that it is NOT a "top dollar" product (!)_ For example, Eastman is the highest-end mass builder in China and they are clearly mid-market, at best. Nothing they make sells for over $10k, if even half that.
If you wanted to hear how the pedals really sound, you should have put them on a clean tone as well and I'm surprised you didn't. I know it's a metal channel, but doing that as well as your high gain tones would have been a better test.
The market should decide. Pedals with cheaper components will inevitably differ in sound from the originals, and if they don’t, then it marks a technological advancement, as now almost the same sound can be achieved for lesser costs. As an owner of plethora of both Boss and Behringer pedals, I can speak on the fact that the clones differ vastly. Behringer is more so a variation on Boss than it is a clone. It also happens to be cheaper. That’s all.
Pretty wild how similar those pedals sound. You're right, it can feel unethical; Trying to make it look too close is a little shitty because you're copying a design someone else made. On the flip side, there's the whole debate over how much R&D/innovation should factor into pricing vs straight-up overhead. It's like guitars: If Factory A in China is making Epi Explorers that sell for $1200, and Factory B in China (or the Factory A night shift!) makes unbranded Explorers that sell for $300, how much of that $1200 price tag is really for "better" things vs. bullshit corporate stuff. To be fair, there are a ton of factors at play, but I think sometimes the "clones" can serve as a reminder to the main companies that they shouldn't be too nutty on their pricing because the veil can be lifted pretty easily nowadays.
The more I've informed myself about copyright, the less i see a gray area, the shitty part is that we are ruled by the law of demand and supply. Look at zvex, overseas child labor, shady import practices, and appropriation... if the big dog claims your work, there is so much you can do, even with IP ownership.
I have mixed feelings about this. What I like about cloning is being able to get pedals for less money as a beginner player. I’m still finding my sound, so it’s not economical to spend more on the “real thing” right now. Once I improve and if the need still exists, I may buy the real thing. From a legal perspective, I’m not okay with skirting the laws to take another’s ideas and work, but as you noted, the laws in US allows for this, and those laws will be pushed.
The clean channel of the Peavey 3120 is an exact copy of the preamp of a certain Fender classic preamp. Speaking of Peavey, the OG Butcher is an exact replica of the 2203 JCM800, but using 6L6GC power tubes and more available parts states side. They were sent a cease and desists (so the legend goes) and they made the VTM that offered all the modern mods people were doing to their JCM800s anyway. They threw in a FX loop and now it’s a totally different amp. Sometimes Behringer does this, or actually make their clones have additional features that IMO should have been there with the OG versions. I.E. all the Moog “Made (assembled) in America” Mother 32, Subharmonicon, and DMAF copies all added MIDI which to me is essential in any modern synth. To be clear, the R and D based off the components and circuits most recent Moogs are based off of pre Minimoog Modular circuits. That makes them fair game for cloning, so long as trademark infringement isn’t a thing I.E. you aren’t being confused into thinking you’re buying a Moog. If your product can pass the patent and trademark sniff test, then if you have the means, you can bring your product to market. What’s divisive about Behringer in general is how they treated critics in the past (and sometimes present), perceived antisemitism (I think it’s a stretch), and of course cloning things that are currently in production by other companies like the ARP Odyssey/2500, MS20 made by Korg, and even one of the most popular midi controllers made by Arturia and just charging 20$ less seems petty.
I used to have the Demon FX one and while I really loved it, it just felt wrong for how blatant a copy it was. If they didn't steal the look and name, I would've been much more accepting of it. In the pedal cloning world, I think it's ok to clone a circuit, but not the branding, name, & look. Josh Scott of JHS made a video on this topic and I think he nailed it on the head.
I think MXR uses a version of the Millenium bypass, which does accomplish true bypass switching plus LED indicator using a DPDT foot switch, with the help of additional active components. MXR seems to prefer DPDT switches due to better reliability and more use cycles compared to the typical 3PDT, which the DemonFX pedal seems to have here.
At least with Behringer pedals, the appearance of their products are different enough that a customer wouldn't buy one thinking it was a Boss pedal. Demon FX seems to make their products with the intention of deceiving customers.
Super glad you finally did this video. I own the joyo Argos and I absolutely love it. I have mad respect for horizon devices but at a certain point the price of some pedals is just overkill.
I bought it once and returned it. It was too bright and had no low end. The JHS Screamer was the same way. Good ol classic Tube Screamer never lets me down.
It's hard to say how I feel about blantant copies in general when I look at MIJ gibson copies and think to myself "damn, I want one"...And then simultaneously look at something like this and say "damn, that's plagiarism". It's a double edged sword here.
The Boss/Behringer lawsuit was about trade dress, i.e. Behringer's physical pedal design being too similar to that of Boss. You can still find some photos online of Behringer's original enclosure design, and from a distance they were practically indistinguishable from Boss pedals. After the lawsuit, Behringer changed the design to the more rounded box they're still using today. But it is important to note that the lawsuit was not about the circuits inside the pedals, and it is important not to conflate these things. Where Demonfx differ from most other manufacturers is that they don't seem to give a hoot about trademark or trade dress issues. But that also means the original manufacturer can take steps to block the import and sales of their clones. For example, the Demonfx Darkglass clones don't seem to be on sale anywhere outside Aliexpress, while the JOYO clones are readily available everywhere. As several others have already commented, the whole guitar amp and pedal industry is built upon making tiny tweaks to a handful of basic designs, some of which came right out of the component manufacturers' application notes. If circuit designs had copyright protection, the whole electronics industry would not exist.
I have wanted a precision drive for a long time but don't have any $ (been fighting for disability for years). If I was loaded, I'd get the Horizon. But I'm not loaded and can't even afford the Demon, but if I were able to get one it would have to be the Demon. $60 is far beyond what I have and paying 4X that much is crazy, especially for something with cheaper components and a worse gate.
I always find clones to be interesting, and ive been a berhinger guy (depending on the product) for a while. Ive thought about buying some of the demonFx stuff in the past, particularly the Precision Drive and the 66 (which used to just be called the 33, but i heard Fortin got in touch with them), but never pulled the trigger on them. I think its cool that they offer a budget friendly alternative to expensive gear, but they should definitely change the name and the look of the pedal in question. the 33 boost (when it was called that) and the precision drive are just egregious with their rip off-ness. even if they do sound good.
Great demo! Speaking of cloning other people's inventions. Look at Behringer synthesizers, which make pure copies, for example Moog and other well-known brands.
I think that Maxon and Ibanez just bought the same generic pedals from an OEM company in Japan. All of Ibanez's pedals were outsourced to external OEM facilities, so there have always been multiple brands selling that pedal.
I love my boss GE-7. I love it so much that I found I wanted an EQ pedal in the loop of each of my amps. Set up differently. Well, I can’t afford or say it’s practical for me to buy 7 GE-7s. So I have 6 Behringer clones. And I don’t feel bad about that.
Never liked these DemonFx clones, but after seeing the video, it seems the Demon is better in every way. I would get one myself and just repaint the enclosure and I would feel better myself haha 😅
Pedals use to be around 50 bucks on average, then these manufacturers got stupid greedy and we see prices like $250!! WTF!? I'm all for the copies and I hope they tank the greedy.
Very Interesting! I used to have the DemonFX PD and I thought it sounded great. I ended up gifting it to a friend. but overall thought it was a great value.
I use Horizon devices one, and I notice before that Horizons gate makes sound dull. it seems gate attack time is slow. so I set gate turned off. to get slammy attack, it is shit, besides it mades from periphery
Idk why it’s so funny to me that the demonfx is using better components and true bypass. If misha wasn’t in music, he’d probably have a job that no one understands and sounds made up. But somehow he’s making multiple 6 figures a year and appears to never actually work.
Misha says they usually don't make any money from playing Periphery shows. Most of his income is from instrument and pedal endorsements and GetGood Drums software sales. But I don't know what level of income these financial streams create.
I guarantee you he works. I just think most people don’t consider anything an artist does “work”, which is a shame because the world would suck without art
@@TaylorDanley Agreed - I remember him in the various Line 6 and Soundclick forums years back - he did a lot of product testing and endorsing even back then. He knows his stuff because he's been at it for a long time. He's a highly reliable professional in the music industry.
@@davelanciani-dimaensionx idk about “highly reliable” or even “professional” he’s just been able to build a cult following calling everything “the greatest” whenever he endorses a new product.
The Demon FX pedals are all quite awesome. Some have even little changes making the original circuit better or more versatile. It's insane how much chinese copycats learned over the years.
I stopped being a tube fanatic when someone said, ''A circuit, is a circuit''. So I compared a tube screamer amp, to the pedal, and I could not hear the difference.
😅It's unethical to charge 300 for a pedal when I can get a clone that sounds almost identical for 59bucks...why would any guutar player be upset about this
Taylor I keep thinking of when you talked about the possible future of multi FX / amp modeling in a previous video where you had suggested the idea of VST / plugins in pedal boards as something we may see one day. I decided I would make a small standalone VST plugin host that can be ran through an effects Loop in the signal chain and only takes up the space of about 1 and a half standard size boss pedals. 💡 - They have these little tiny windows PC's that are the size of two smartphones stacked up on top of each other with touch screen you can take that and a tiny iRig Pro Duo for I/O or something similar in size then just set it up in the start menu so that when you power it on it automatically loads into the VST host program engine and you're in business.😎
The button at the bottom left must be in the same position, otherwise, everything is wrong. The more you go to the left, the more old school it is and the more you go to the right, the more modern and tight it is.
I do stand with the idea that clones have provided a means for people to get new and exciting tones without having to invest their entire income stream to do so HOWEVER, factory conditions and worker rights for those clones is definitely worth arguing over. HOWEVER HOWEVER, booteek builders charge like they lined their pedals with gold because the added a blend knob or a clipping stage switch and are not just aping off a pedal that already exists that costs less. personally, I just get what I can afford as I am not a money man.
In retrospect, and I wish I would have added this in… I think that clones are a great gateway but if you really want the vibe the original has to offer, then that is totally justified IMO. There’s a special sort of abstract thing that happens when I use a Fortin grind vs any other similar pedal… has nothing to do with tone, it’s just a vibe. If that vibe inspires something cool, worth every penny.
@@riffsnoleads treating people well should not be dictated by a political ideology...also treating well people that would never care about us or even harm us if possible it is a bad idea ..
As someone who builds pedals (part time), I'll throw in my 2 cents... When I started out I had a bunch of electronics experience, but didn't know anything about guitar amp/pedal/tone circuits. I built a few "clones" of pedals (and amps) that I wanted for myself but couldn't afford. The more I learned about how they worked, the more I started to tweak the circuits to get them to sound "better" to my ear, or add in some control that I felt was missing, etc. Would the new "tweaked" circuit be considered plagiarism? I guess not legally. Then there's this... Electronics are interesting and frustrating at the same time. You can build 2 identical circuits and they will sound a little different, or you can build 2 different circuits and they will sound the same. There are a bunch of different ways to design a tone stack or a gain control. There are many circuits that work completely different but accomplish the same thing. I personally wouldn't feel right about selling a "counterfeit" (a.k.a. chibson). But where do we draw the line between the terms "counterfeit" and "based on". I don't know. I guess supply and demand will always win... If I want something but I can't afford to buy or build it, I will (and have) get the less expensive alternative.
Good take. I agree, I think when people add their own elements or tweak the design it becomes a new thing IMO. It’s one of the things I love about the pedal industry, no - we don’t need another tube screamer clone, but throw in a gate or a sweepable mid control and now it’s a new tool
I ordered one demonfx PD in early 2022 because I prefer an external boost even using a multifx, after 1 year I selled (at the time I owned other multifx, and think that I don't needed an external pedal because of that), and god, how I regreted this. A few months ago, I was studying buy the original one, but because of the price of the dollar in my country, I bought another demonfx Precision Drive. It's amazing pedal with amazing price, I do not know other boost pedal with same result
The morality of buying clone pedals for me comes down to what kind of company the original pedal is manufactured by. If the original pedal is made by some mom n pop operation out of a dudes garage, I would not buy a clone. But if it’s a big company like Roland, I don’t give a shit
Established folks will continue to patronize the original companies if they feel they're worth it. Clones open up the world of pedals to every kid who wants to pick up a guitar. Also, is the horizon pedal without the true bypass coloring the sound of the demonfx?
I got tricked into buying the Demonfx Bass Overdrive because it is named and looks exactly like the Darkglass version. It's ok, but I think I might get an MXR M80 or Tech 21 Bass DI, and run this to stack the gain.
Imagine a scenario where the clone and the original sound the same, but the clone is half the price. They are both made on the same assembly line. If you buy the clone basically what happens is that the company owner /affiliated person does not get the revenue.
This was a very interesting video. One of the best I have seen on this topic of cloning and copyright. In a bit of a nutshell, most gear is a copy or a modified version of something before it. I guess Demon FX go a little bit far by also making the cases look the same as the pedal it cloned. Is that unethical? By definition…..yes. However, one of the main issues would be how many sales have been lost by the company of the original pedal that has been cloned. If it’s none does it really matter? Can that even be measured? I own a couple of Demon FX pedals and I have found them to be excellent for the home studio. $400 Aud for a Horizon Drive or $40 for the Demon FX version. Times are tough so I can’t really see these clones going away.
Maybe it shouldn't be a factor, but I have less of a problem with the Horizon Devices ripoff since it's really MXR's Mansoor division. Hopping up prices on stuff they've done before. Or even a tube screamer clone with their smart gate shoved in. Sure! Rip those guys off all day. (Joyo Chopper Z is Apex Preamp) But Demonfx go after Darkglass and Keeley. JHS. Their Fortin 33 knock-off was altered for legal reasons. Wonder why Friedman hasn't been as successful?
Mosky has been doing some interesting things with their clones recently, offering a dial that switches out diodes and different mods, at least this is a bit of value added to the clone and not just a straight copy. The sad thing about the DemonFX is copying the trade dress of the pedals they clone. At least, Joyo for instance uses their own branding and style and occasionally changes the circuit a little bit.
I don't have a problem with copied circuits or less expensive options. It can be great for players on a budget, new players, or people that just want to try out a circuit before dropping 200+ on a pedal. I'm not comfortable with copying trade dress. At that point they aren't offering a clone, they are potentially deceiving people about what they're buying. It's reasonable to think that a person not as aware could purchase the Demonfx thinking they're getting the Horizon pedal. I feel the same way about the look of some of Warm Audio's stuff. So circuit copying is pretty standard and I like having options but copying trade dress is not cool.
I suggest that every "Butique" pedal brands should have to match the pedal design 100% and perfectly, to the original circuit, so that they are unable to hide behind their stupid mojo myth statements or theft of DIY Community Circuit, now forced to reveal that they simply offer you Yet Another Tube Screamer or Yet Another Big Muff. No more "Vintage Class A Germanium Preamp", but rather simply a Range Master Boost. Copying is not the sin! There is no copyright on Schematics! Claiming original design when it is actually theft on the other hand... That deserves to be revealed for everyone to know. Are you paying attention JHS Josh? When are you going to credit RunnoffGroove for the Superbolt, and Tim Escobedo for the octave section of the Lizard Queen, even though Tim clearly states that his circuits are not for commercial use? Vertex douchbag... Are you going to credit Jack Orman or do you still insist that it is your own design? This industry is riddled with Snake Oil Learn to read schematics and it all becomes crystal clear: Deception everywhere!
Horizon Devices pedals are made cheap. I had a Flux Echo that I loved but the components on the inside were super fragile to the point that the pedal didn’t even work anymore. That’s also why I have no sympathy for Horizon Devices getting cloned.
I have a lot of overdrives, my favorite for awhile was my mud killer, until I looked at the precision drive, then found a clone video, then purchased the clone for $30 on eBay, now it’s my main go-to 😂😂😂😂😂 DONT JUDGE ME
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BTW a lot of those people who make copies in Asia if you ask them they'll stop. It all depends. Since I'm engineer and i went to electronic scholl for 4 years, to be honest a lot of pedals are copy paste of old ones with added extra switch or pot. Changing a value of few component's and they are ''designers''. You can do that as well, and you can learn to ''design'' pedals in max few days.
to be honest i don't undersnat how people accpet justifayings of some brands that their pedals must be in a price range of 200US$ or more. It's a matter of someone's desire to make a larger profit, and a lot of them became wealthy... Pedals are simple.
One Lap top is far more complex, and i can't even compare it with some pedals, but still you can get a OK office Lap Top for like 300-400$Us and you have digal pedals that cost more ☺ ...So there are such myths in a guitar industry .....
I completely expected the Precision Drive to be easier to take apart than the Precision Drive.
Funny no-one seems to have issue with the bazillion tube screamer clones
Whip the Precision Drive basically is, with a few bells and whistles.
This is a TS clone lmao
@@stug5041 I'm aware lmfao
I believe the tube screamer is a clone of the original boss ds1 which came out in 1977 and the tube screamer 808 coming in 1979. Josh from JHS talked about it in a video.
@@denskosnorebandit boss sd-1, but yes. Not the ds-1 that is very different!
My view has always been that the generics are a great thing, they make over-priced or boutique pedals affordable to most people... But... They shouldnt look EXACTLY like the name brand... THAT is plagiarism. (Although i own the 66 and the Precision Drive by Demonfx) Nice work, TD! (Even though I caught you calling the Powerball a Fireball. :)
🤣 I get carried away…
Thanks dude, appreciate it and I think this is my stance as well.
@@TaylorDanleyhere's an idea for a series "I tried the most expensive (some company) guitar"
wow, Misha has been ripping us. just bought a demon fx because of this video
I’m just not trying to support Misha buying any more super cars.
I think Misha comes from serious wealth, even as a kid on the seven string forum he was blowing through like 30 custom shop guitars a year. Great player/producer, dude just LOVES flexing money like no one else since yngwie
@@caspay21 Right, his father is the minister of finance for Mauritius. He’s an economist and has made multi millions from investing in Tesla. They also lived in one of the wealthiest areas in Bethesda Maryland. They’re loaded.
For me there is nothing wrong with Misha having money (he clearly worked hard for it and is very talented), but the constant flaunting of it I find in poor taste.
Misha "You can't make money off of music" Buys Huracan Performante Trofeo Superleggera Marcello Gandini Edizione.
@@caspay21 His dad was like the Prime Minister of an Island in the South Pacific.
The guitar industry is built on copying each other's products and sometimes making slight tweaks here and there so its kind of whatever to me. Look at all the tube screamer copies. We can also look at other products, like all the JCM 800 copies and amps inspired by it, all the cheap Stratocaster copies, and so on. I think its a bigger deal in the guitar community when a company tries to prevent others from copying them or even creating inspired by designs, like Gibson and all their lawsuits.
As someone that owns 2 Horizon Precision Drives, I think this copy by DemonFX is awesome cause it'll help kids and players on a budget get their hands on an awesome pedal without the insane Periphery mark-up.
If a cloning company can produce a "so close you can hardly tell the difference" pedal at a fraction of the price of the original then what's unethical is the cost for the original.
Not entirely true. The costs in developing a guitar pedal is pretty high. When you clone a circuit exactly you don't have much R&D costs that need to be made up. Besides that Horizon Devices doesn't make their own pedals, so a part of their margin goes to MXR.
This is the exact discussion I had with someone about the new Behringer rack compressor that is a clone of a 40 year old Neve compressor which they still sell today at around $4K, and Behringer sells it for $500. Neve is a top brand and has a brand name, quality, warranty, and service attached to protect, but at a price. If your willing to accept less quality and less service then the Behringer fits the bill. Is it wrong, well Neve had 40 year to recoup their cost of design, engineering so double the normal patent length. The same with a Versace purse, you can pay 4K for brand recognition or buy a knock off that probably isn't as nice but is good enough. In the end most people would never be able to afford the Neve, so it's allowing people without that kind of budget, and never would have, to get into the game. Those people would never have bought the Neve in first place so they aren't losing sales.
It also depends on who is making it as in where it is made. Something made in the USA, Japan, or most European countries will have better paid workers. Alternatively, if it's built in China, the workers aren't getting paid as much. So it's not always a matter of a greedy company.
Don't get me wrong, plenty of companies in basically every country have a poor rate of how much the top level people (the bosses and owners etc...) get vs. what the average worker who actually built the products get.
I can tell you don’t design circuits for a living. R&d aint cheap.
Yeeeeaaah, 'cause research & development, marketing and supporting your product in various ways costs absolutely nothing.
Nah, companies like DemonFX and Behringer can F right off. I'll never give them a ¢.
I've been using the joyo argos overdrive. It's also a precision drive clone. I paid about $35 dollars for it.
Draven Noire compared the 66 to the 33 going as far as playing the same di through them and phase inverting one, and they canceled each other. It's the same pedal. Honestly, if the 33 was cheaper, I would get one. But nothing justifies selling it for 10x more. So, I'm glad I got a 66.
@@HAHb-zc2dp if there's one company I'm fine with being ripped off it's Fortin. The guy built his brand with a rip-off of the Larry Dino, so I can't feel bad for him getting the same courtesy.
@@HAHb-zc2dp Ah, I misread what you said. You were saying fuck Fortin. Thought you were saying fuck whoever copies Fortin, which I disagreed with. We agree then 😂
The DemonFX Pedal 33 has a Footswitch build in. Thats awesome and the Point why i buyed this instead of the original 😅🫣
@@HAHb-zc2dp i mean you can Switch the Chanel of the amp with that one. I dont know an other Pedal that can do this. Not in this Combination
The problem with patenting circuit schematics and PCB design is that functional blocks from which guitar pedals and (basically every electronic device) are basically non-patentable. Most of them consists of general building blocks which everyone can learn from textbooks (like The Art of Electronics). The only thing that could be patentable is general idea of device (a block diagram) but that still does not protect the device idea from being stolen. In most cases you can get to the same functionality by using different integrated circuits or even different functional blocks like for example every IoT device - it always has some kind of microcontroller and bunch of sensors/buttons/LCDs. You can try to protect the circuit by filling the enclosure with some kind of resin or epoxy but if someone wants to steal your IP then its only gonna slow them down.
Changing topic - I don't understand why pedal makers still insist to put old JRC4588 Opamp in 2024 - there are much better alternatives especially considering that op amp does not add anything to sound if is chosen properly.
If Demon fx just changes the looks of their pedals, this wouldn't be that much big of a deal. They commiting Trade Dress infringement , which is probably the reason they sell as many pedals as they do (aside from the cheaper price). Just saw their newest Keeley's Caverns clone and omg they dont even try to change anything even a little on the graphics of the the pedal.
I was just a few days ago checking out their ISP Decimator G-string clone, and in the description they even left the original name in 🤣
I just bought the ravine and ghast echo and it's amazing how great they sound! What a clone company! I spent 130 and saved 170
i've just stared playing guitar ~1 year ago, and your channel has aided me so much in the equipment i should/shouldn't get, thank you so much for being a badass !
Thank you for being here champ 💪
As a builder I was absolutely shocked to realize schematics, layouts and more are not subject to patents or trademarks. Only names and graphics are, and that’s if someone can enforce it.
That being said, as a builder I do everything I can to add more to anything that’s a “xxxxx-alike” or whatever you want to call it. As it turns out. Many many old school designs used op amps and components very effectively.
So it looks like you can technically patent a circuit if it’s new and has some novelty. But again, costly and you’d have to pay to enforce it if someone directly copied it, but it’s so easy to slightly change one element and not infringe on the patent, so what’s the point 🤷♂️
I think this video brings a lot to the table in terms of factual information to have in mind while tone chasing. Apart from the moral debate of clones, the Demonfx pedal costs a quarter of the price, while having better "materials" (which I assume means better capacitors, resistors and chips) and being true bypass which many people tend to believe makes gear better (it doesn't). Tone cultist can't deny the clone in this case is just better in every way but they won't do it because is not the original. Even when we all know the Precision Drive is a Tube Screamer copy itself. I prefer to buy clones myself because they sound identical and I cannot justify 200$ for a pedal when I need like 5 of them in the rig I'm building.
Gonna go out on a limb here, I honestly don't mind the "clones". Had these "clones" been around for me 20 years ago I would have saved A SHIT TON OF MONEY! I'm guilty of buying some new "clones". I am not really affected by what or who did what. I saved money from these new pedals. 🤷
Way back in the day there was a series called rocktek and they were kind of like a predecessor to behringer. I had a few of those cuz it was like thirty or forty bucks for a chorus pedal and the other option was a used boss or dod for a hundred bucks at the pawn shop. Best distortion I ever had tho was the soundtrack model of Ibanez classic metal pedal. Those were another plastic enclosure budget pedal line before the dano minis came out.
@@joeydurant6267 Man I remember scraping up change anyway I could to buy my brand new Big Muff fuzz pedal. To the point I started recycling beer cans and soda cans. I was excited to get it. Only for it to get stolen a week later. I cried. Not gonna lie.
@@theglitch_713 had a lawsuit era Electra sg copy that got stolen from a party one night that I still keep an eye out for in my little hillbilly hometown.
The tolerances of the tone pot (range, and exact frequency) are a little different between them, and tbf that can happen even between two of the same pedal made by the same brand, from the same assembly line batch. This accounts for what I presume you're hearing, when you say 'sounds cheaper" if you're hearing what I'm hearing and vice versa.
From an engineering pov some things are objectively better because they are measurable: THD, noise floor, power efficiency etc
From an aesthetic pov the specs go out the window - tube amps are still prized above all else
_because the mind is the slave of the passions, and not the other way around._
I have a Joyo Argos. the thing is, they haven't stolen a customer from Horizon Devices cos there's no way I'd have spent what they want but I'm absolutely down for chucking £35 at amazon and giving the Argos a try. It's actually a decent pedal and I use it instead of my Tube Screamer sometimes.
Tube guitar amps were never "invented". The very first models were implementations of the schematics as printed in the RCA handbook. Leo Fender was an engineer, not an inventor. So all guitar amps are basically "clones" of other amplifiers before them.
Not so sure about this conclusion.
If I recall, the Mesa Boogie Mark I was based on a Fender Princeton, but additional gain stages were added. The Marshall JTM45 was based off a Fender Bassman. A (Fender) EVH 5150 III is obviously inspired by the Peavey original 5150, but the clean tones are vastly different.
Amps may take inspiration from each other, but that doesn't mean they are clones. *When you start adding features so an amp's voicing and sound are totally different from its inspiration, the new amp becomes its own thing.*
Doing what Behringer does--reverse engineering a popular product and then modifying it with a marginally different design to come to a similar result at a cheaper price point while avoiding patent infringement--is different.
I would even argue Seymour Duncan reverse engineering the Dimebucker from a Bill Lawrence 500XL is a bit unethical and unfair to Bill. He at least deserved a royalty from the design since he was no longer affiliated with Bill Lawrence USA. But reverse engineering something apparently avoids the same legal obligations as licensing something.
Saying one amp is a clone of all other amps is like saying a Ford Mustang is a clone of a Model T just because they are both cars and the Mustang came indirectly from the Model T. Maybe in that they both have four wheels they are clones, but they are sufficiently different enough to make them their own entities.
An interesting discussion regarding clone vs. original is in the trademark dispute between Gibson and DiMarzio over the term "PAF." I think they're both wrong.
PAF is a generic legal designation of patent applied for. People just started calling Gibson humbuckers PAFs for short. Furthermore, PAF designs were all over the place from the 50s-70s due to loose standards regarding windings, materials, and design. So every PAF from that time is somewhat unique depending upon year.
Larry DiMarzio took one of his favorite sets of these PAFs from one of his favorite vintage guitars, tweaked the pickups, and started marketing it as DiMarzio's PAF line, claiming to own the trademark to the PAF name.
But arguing over PAF is like car companies arguing over "sedan," "SUV," or "crossover." These are generic terms, not specific things that can be trademarked.
So by that logic I think neither DiMarzio nor Gibson should own the term "PAF." They can call it a "DiMarzio PAF" or "Gibson PAF" if they like, but trademarking "PAF" alone is like trying to trademark "humbucker." It's just dumb.
@@AAAA-lt9hq OK, perhaps clones was the wrong word, but all tube guitar amps are basically variations on the same recipe. They mainly vary in ingredients, quantities and spices.
@@Synic42 I don't think they're "the same recipe," because if you vary the ingredients, quantities, and spices, you get a different recipe all together. :)
Again it's like saying cars are the same because they all started as variations of horse drawn carriages. But electric cars are different from internal combustion engines to make each their own thing.
But do amps borrow ideas from each other? Yes. What seems to be a contentious issue is exactly when that borrowing constitutes patent infringement. And I'd need a patent attorney for that.
@@AAAA-lt9hq Fenders are entirely derivative of RCA circuits, was the point. 🙄
Legally, the only thing that actually matters (concerning to whatever degree you or I feel that this or that amp is "it's own thing") is for a judge and jury to decide on in a per-case basis.
@@shaft9000 Like song copyright infringement?
Patent law is difficult and inconsistently enforced, it seems.
I bought the Joyo Argos and I"m super glad I did because for me it's definitely not a pedal worth what the Horizon costs. That being said I own many Demonfx pedals and so far they are all great and have saved me a ton of money. I'm just a hobbiest but I always thought if I were still gigging I might pay for some of the originals. Now after seeing the disection of the pedals, and hearing the comparisons, I"m not so sure. I will definitely contiue to give Demonfx my money for now.
I own a DemonFX clone of the Snow White auto-wah, and the PCB inside says "Mosky" ... not terribly surprised TBH 🤣
I own a moskyaudio magnetic delay and the PCB says Keeley 🧐 most of the time they say caline. That's normal OEM stuff.
I bought the demonfx after it was recommended via ads after i couldn't find a precision drive in stock anywhere and used ones were going for new prices. So blame google some for this too.
Your ears are playing tricks on you, "sounds cheaper" is a dead give away....you want to believe it sounds cheaper because its cheaper so that happens... its the same circuit brah....
Same circuit, that too with better components 😂
My personal take sits somewhere in the middle. You can acknowledge a good design and want to replicate it, but you should add something that makes it stand out. If you think about, a lot of us do the same with music… you can like a riff enough that you use it in a song, but how you make it different is what makes you stand out. I think if a company takes that approach, they will also end up making some unique designs that will be noteworthy on their own just because they want to innovate and have the talent to pull it off.
Other countries don't recognize intellectual property ie copyright. China, Japan. IMO people get ripped off all the time. I feel that CNC Machining leveled the guitar manufacturers. So you can get a great Firefly, Leo Jamz, Donner, Also CLONES are good IMO. I like modifications to my guitars. I love Guitar Pedal Clones. Also the Boss Multiple Effects Pedal. My wife and I each purchased the Donner Arena Multiple Effects Pedal. Do what works for you. You do realize that large companies like Gibson Fender Boss etc all GIVE FREE GEAR PLUS PAY SPONSORS TO USE IT LIKE BIG BANDS... So Why should I subsidize this by paying more for a product. When I can get a product that does the same thing for less. Cheers 🍻🥃🥃🎸🎵🎶🎶🎶
My only issue is when the rip offs look exactly like the product they are ripping off. I have no problems with people making the same pedal. For example, the Fortin grind is literally an overpriced one knob tc integrated preamp. I have no problem buying a knockoff of that
My DemonFX Precision has a non-functioning battery compartment. If I gig with it I need to tape a 9v to the side and use an adaptor. I might just buy a backup since it was so cheap.
Their Friedman clone is interesting. It will not work (for long) on 18v, but if you "blow it out" at 18v, it still works at 9.
I took mine apart and found there is a gain responsive LED that is hidden among the knobs, as well as a seperate gain dial on the back end of the board.
I drilled a hole on both sides of the enclosure, added a small window of plastic to see the LED react, and the hole on the back lets you use a small screwdriver to quickly fine-tune the gain for any instrument.
There is an 18v version of the double-size pedal, I'm very curious to grab it.
The horizon devices doesn’t completely clamp down the entire signal it only works on a certain range of frequencies to help tighten up things so you would also find it letting some signal through even when clamped down. This is intentional and is only meant to supplement when the pedal is on to help with noise the pedal might add. Also I bought one used on reverb and it was having issues and when I contacted the manufacturer(dunlop) they actually repaired the pedal at no charge even though it wasn’t in warranty and I doubt the other company would provide customer service like that. For that reason alone I tend to try to stick with originals if I can help it. Thanks for the comparison video, the copy sounds pretty good I will say that. 🤘🤘🤘
There's definitely a limit to this, IMO the DemonFX pedal is going too far in straight up copying the Horizon pedal but as an example having a green overdrive pedal is totally reasonable and isn't ground for Ibanez to sue.
Alluding to another pedal is one thing but to straight rip off not only the function but the entire design is unreasonable.
Tolerances can make each Precision drive sound different...
The main thing though is the gate. The gate needed even more improvement.
The problem with the Precision Drive gate is that it doesn't work well with high output pickups... It's too tame even maxed! It was probably designed to be used with the BKP Juggernauts... But even with just a Tone Zone, it's not super tight.
You do realize that 98% of the guitar pedals are made in China. Same with guitars amps. Why are we paying US Companies too dollars 💰💰💰 for products made in China Vietnam India Indonesia etc .. When you can buy from the company over there that makes the products for the US COMPANIES FOR 80%=90% LESS. So who is the Villain here Executive s making 7 figure salaries..
Manufacturing went over the Asia because Western consumers could no longer afford to buy gear that was manufactured domestically.
Also, if I can find a vintage or used version of a real deal pedal that I know one of my influences used, why would I pay slightly less for a cheap, potentially unreliable knock off?
Buying import copies makes sense if we're talking new North American/European gear. But if we're talking used name brand vs. new import copies--I'm not so sure. I'd rather just pay more and have the confidence of having the genuine, although used, article.
@@AAAA-lt9hq more like CORPORATE EXECUTIVES SAW HUGE PROFIT BY moving manufacturing overseas
@@BackWoodsBillyCraftBeerReviews The Peavey episode of "Undercover Boss" covered all this. There is so much competition in the industry that profit margins are squeezed from every angle.
Most of the music gear industry is not corporate, anyway. They are private companies and small builders who over decades of marketing have become known as gurus (Lee Jackson, Bob Bradshaw, Rob Turner, Seymour Duncan, Larry DiMarzio, Bruce Egnater, Bill Lawrence, etc., etc.).
I would be more in favor of the corporate greed argument if these were publicly traded companies that could raise money through stock and investors. Most gear companies can't and don't do this.
If anything limits the guitar industry itself it is the ability to sustainably and reliably source harder to find woods like ebony for fretboards. Export restrictions like wood from Madagascar drive up prices for builders.
The biggest drain on many companies is marketing because there is so much competition, as well as the perception by players that paying more means better quality. You end up with each brand offering its products in pricing tiers, but not much downward pressure on price.
Gear companies are also competing against their own used products from decades back. I can buy a budget/mid priced made in Japan guitar from the 90s-00s and upgrade the bridge and electronics to rival any American model. I can even add features like wiring options (phase/split/parallel/series/killswitch) that don't normally come stock on factory guitars.
About the only way the industry has innovated in the last 10-20 years has been the embrace of extended range multi scale instruments. And even those are unacceptable for people like me who prefer floating bridges and more aggressive designs than 2 humbucker Strats.
@@AAAA-lt9hq Greed is Greed. Most small companies have investors they just are not publicly traded on an exchange 💱. See TV show shark tank. They provide seed money & or funds for expansion etc. in exchange for a piece of the company. They are silent partners. BTW IMO if you have a shareholders meeting you are a corporate entity. See business law partner ship sole or corporate all must have meetings required by LAW. MARSHALL is not Small neither is Laney Black Star Peavy has been proven greedy. Gibson Fender Jackson is part of fender Kramer is part of Gibson other than a few pedals amps & custom guitars most are infact corporate.
The key is being able to call or e-mail and communicate with the maker/distributor/seller
_in the same language_ to get warranty or customer service of ANY kind.
Furthermore, _the entire point of manufacturing in East-Asia is so that it is NOT a "top dollar" product (!)_ For example, Eastman is the highest-end mass builder in China and they are clearly mid-market, at best. Nothing they make sells for over $10k, if even half that.
If you wanted to hear how the pedals really sound, you should have put them on a clean tone as well and I'm surprised you didn't. I know it's a metal channel, but doing that as well as your high gain tones would have been a better test.
The market should decide. Pedals with cheaper components will inevitably differ in sound from the originals, and if they don’t, then it marks a technological advancement, as now almost the same sound can be achieved for lesser costs.
As an owner of plethora of both Boss and Behringer pedals, I can speak on the fact that the clones differ vastly. Behringer is more so a variation on Boss than it is a clone. It also happens to be cheaper. That’s all.
Pretty wild how similar those pedals sound. You're right, it can feel unethical; Trying to make it look too close is a little shitty because you're copying a design someone else made. On the flip side, there's the whole debate over how much R&D/innovation should factor into pricing vs straight-up overhead.
It's like guitars: If Factory A in China is making Epi Explorers that sell for $1200, and Factory B in China (or the Factory A night shift!) makes unbranded Explorers that sell for $300, how much of that $1200 price tag is really for "better" things vs. bullshit corporate stuff.
To be fair, there are a ton of factors at play, but I think sometimes the "clones" can serve as a reminder to the main companies that they shouldn't be too nutty on their pricing because the veil can be lifted pretty easily nowadays.
I think misha mansoor can buy the real one and me being a knock off of him can buy the cheaper one !
The more I've informed myself about copyright, the less i see a gray area, the shitty part is that we are ruled by the law of demand and supply. Look at zvex, overseas child labor, shady import practices, and appropriation... if the big dog claims your work, there is so much you can do, even with IP ownership.
I have mixed feelings about this. What I like about cloning is being able to get pedals for less money as a beginner player. I’m still finding my sound, so it’s not economical to spend more on the “real thing” right now. Once I improve and if the need still exists, I may buy the real thing.
From a legal perspective, I’m not okay with skirting the laws to take another’s ideas and work, but as you noted, the laws in US allows for this, and those laws will be pushed.
The clean channel of the Peavey 3120 is an exact copy of the preamp of a certain Fender classic preamp.
Speaking of Peavey, the OG Butcher is an exact replica of the 2203 JCM800, but using 6L6GC power tubes and more available parts states side. They were sent a cease and desists (so the legend goes) and they made the VTM that offered all the modern mods people were doing to their JCM800s anyway. They threw in a FX loop and now it’s a totally different amp.
Sometimes Behringer does this, or actually make their clones have additional features that IMO should have been there with the OG versions.
I.E. all the Moog “Made (assembled) in America” Mother 32, Subharmonicon, and DMAF copies all added MIDI which to me is essential in any modern synth. To be clear, the R and D based off the components and circuits most recent Moogs are based off of pre Minimoog Modular circuits. That makes them fair game for cloning, so long as trademark infringement isn’t a thing I.E. you aren’t being confused into thinking you’re buying a Moog. If your product can pass the patent and trademark sniff test, then if you have the means, you can bring your product to market.
What’s divisive about Behringer in general is how they treated critics in the past (and sometimes present), perceived antisemitism (I think it’s a stretch), and of course cloning things that are currently in production by other companies like the ARP Odyssey/2500, MS20 made by Korg, and even one of the most popular midi controllers made by Arturia and just charging 20$ less seems petty.
I used to have the Demon FX one and while I really loved it, it just felt wrong for how blatant a copy it was. If they didn't steal the look and name, I would've been much more accepting of it. In the pedal cloning world, I think it's ok to clone a circuit, but not the branding, name, & look. Josh Scott of JHS made a video on this topic and I think he nailed it on the head.
I think MXR uses a version of the Millenium bypass, which does accomplish true bypass switching plus LED indicator using a DPDT foot switch, with the help of additional active components.
MXR seems to prefer DPDT switches due to better reliability and more use cycles compared to the typical 3PDT, which the DemonFX pedal seems to have here.
At least with Behringer pedals, the appearance of their products are different enough that a customer wouldn't buy one thinking it was a Boss pedal. Demon FX seems to make their products with the intention of deceiving customers.
The honest talk at 10:20 is the best part of the video
Super glad you finally did this video. I own the joyo Argos and I absolutely love it. I have mad respect for horizon devices but at a certain point the price of some pedals is just overkill.
I bought it once and returned it. It was too bright and had no low end. The JHS Screamer was the same way. Good ol classic Tube Screamer never lets me down.
It's hard to say how I feel about blantant copies in general when I look at MIJ gibson copies and think to myself "damn, I want one"...And then simultaneously look at something like this and say "damn, that's plagiarism". It's a double edged sword here.
The Boss/Behringer lawsuit was about trade dress, i.e. Behringer's physical pedal design being too similar to that of Boss. You can still find some photos online of Behringer's original enclosure design, and from a distance they were practically indistinguishable from Boss pedals. After the lawsuit, Behringer changed the design to the more rounded box they're still using today. But it is important to note that the lawsuit was not about the circuits inside the pedals, and it is important not to conflate these things.
Where Demonfx differ from most other manufacturers is that they don't seem to give a hoot about trademark or trade dress issues. But that also means the original manufacturer can take steps to block the import and sales of their clones. For example, the Demonfx Darkglass clones don't seem to be on sale anywhere outside Aliexpress, while the JOYO clones are readily available everywhere.
As several others have already commented, the whole guitar amp and pedal industry is built upon making tiny tweaks to a handful of basic designs, some of which came right out of the component manufacturers' application notes. If circuit designs had copyright protection, the whole electronics industry would not exist.
I have wanted a precision drive for a long time but don't have any $ (been fighting for disability for years). If I was loaded, I'd get the Horizon. But I'm not loaded and can't even afford the Demon, but if I were able to get one it would have to be the Demon. $60 is far beyond what I have and paying 4X that much is crazy, especially for something with cheaper components and a worse gate.
Great Video, Taylor. Thank you for comparing these 2 pedals... It is interesting for sure...
Thank you for being here!! 💪
I think there’s a good faith way to steal and a bad faith way to steal. Copying without improving something is worse than unethical - it’s lazy.
I always find clones to be interesting, and ive been a berhinger guy (depending on the product) for a while.
Ive thought about buying some of the demonFx stuff in the past, particularly the Precision Drive and the 66 (which used to just be called the 33, but i heard Fortin got in touch with them), but never pulled the trigger on them. I think its cool that they offer a budget friendly alternative to expensive gear, but they should definitely change the name and the look of the pedal in question.
the 33 boost (when it was called that) and the precision drive are just egregious with their rip off-ness. even if they do sound good.
you know that the precision drive only has 1 diode different than a tubescreamer schematic right? So actually the Horizon device is the ripoff...
Great demo! Speaking of cloning other people's inventions. Look at Behringer synthesizers, which make pure copies, for example Moog and other well-known brands.
Demonfx cloned Horizon effects, which cloned Maxon, which cloned Ibanez.
I think that Maxon and Ibanez just bought the same generic pedals from an OEM company in Japan.
All of Ibanez's pedals were outsourced to external OEM facilities, so there have always been multiple brands selling that pedal.
I really like your video man ! Even if i don't plan to buy a pedal ever again. Keep up the excellent work man !!!!
I think Demon FX Cross the line with the pedal designs. It doesn't take long or cost much to re-name and design a new looking enclosure...
I love my boss GE-7. I love it so much that I found I wanted an EQ pedal in the loop of each of my amps. Set up differently. Well, I can’t afford or say it’s practical for me to buy 7 GE-7s. So I have 6 Behringer clones. And I don’t feel bad about that.
Never liked these DemonFx clones, but after seeing the video, it seems the Demon is better in every way. I would get one myself and just repaint the enclosure and I would feel better myself haha 😅
The word “clones” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here 😂 but yeah I hear you! It was surprising to me as well
thank you for open up our eyes and ears, Taylor. one question, Are you really Taylor swift little brother?
Pedals use to be around 50 bucks on average, then these manufacturers got stupid greedy and we see prices like $250!! WTF!? I'm all for the copies and I hope they tank the greedy.
Very Interesting! I used to have the DemonFX PD and I thought it sounded great. I ended up gifting it to a friend. but overall thought it was a great value.
I use Horizon devices one, and I notice before that Horizons gate makes sound dull.
it seems gate attack time is slow. so I set gate turned off.
to get slammy attack, it is shit, besides it mades from periphery
Idk why it’s so funny to me that the demonfx is using better components and true bypass. If misha wasn’t in music, he’d probably have a job that no one understands and sounds made up. But somehow he’s making multiple 6 figures a year and appears to never actually work.
Misha says they usually don't make any money from playing Periphery shows. Most of his income is from instrument and pedal endorsements and GetGood Drums software sales. But I don't know what level of income these financial streams create.
I guarantee you he works. I just think most people don’t consider anything an artist does “work”, which is a shame because the world would suck without art
@@TaylorDanley oh I know. I just meant in a parallel universe lol.
@@TaylorDanley Agreed - I remember him in the various Line 6 and Soundclick forums years back - he did a lot of product testing and endorsing even back then. He knows his stuff because he's been at it for a long time. He's a highly reliable professional in the music industry.
@@davelanciani-dimaensionx idk about “highly reliable” or even “professional” he’s just been able to build a cult following calling everything “the greatest” whenever he endorses a new product.
The Demon FX pedals are all quite awesome. Some have even little changes making the original circuit better or more versatile. It's insane how much chinese copycats learned over the years.
I am here to feign anger, but really I just want to know where to buy the cheap copies
I stopped being a tube fanatic when someone said, ''A circuit, is a circuit''. So I compared a tube screamer amp, to the pedal, and I could not hear the difference.
I have the DemonFX BE-OD “Freedman” and it’s amazing.
a copy with better parts and workmanship? I aint mad.
😅It's unethical to charge 300 for a pedal when I can get a clone that sounds almost identical for 59bucks...why would any guutar player be upset about this
Good video too btw
Taylor I keep thinking of when you talked about the possible future of multi FX / amp modeling in a previous video where you had suggested the idea of VST / plugins in pedal boards as something we may see one day. I decided I would make a small standalone VST plugin host that can be ran through an effects Loop in the signal chain and only takes up the space of about 1 and a half standard size boss pedals.
💡 - They have these little tiny windows PC's that are the size of two smartphones stacked up on top of each other with touch screen you can take that and a tiny iRig Pro Duo for I/O or something similar in size then just set it up in the start menu so that when you power it on it automatically loads into the VST host program engine and you're in business.😎
I've got Freedman and it's sound fantastic with my Marshall DSL 100h , also with Mooer noise gate
Great episode thank you for your hardwork 😊
The button at the bottom left must be in the same position, otherwise, everything is wrong. The more you go to the left, the more old school it is and the more you go to the right, the more modern and tight it is.
I do stand with the idea that clones have provided a means for people to get new and exciting tones without having to invest their entire income stream to do so
HOWEVER, factory conditions and worker rights for those clones is definitely worth arguing over.
HOWEVER HOWEVER, booteek builders charge like they lined their pedals with gold because the added a blend knob or a clipping stage switch and are not just aping off a pedal that already exists that costs less.
personally, I just get what I can afford as I am not a money man.
In retrospect, and I wish I would have added this in… I think that clones are a great gateway but if you really want the vibe the original has to offer, then that is totally justified IMO. There’s a special sort of abstract thing that happens when I use a Fortin grind vs any other similar pedal… has nothing to do with tone, it’s just a vibe. If that vibe inspires something cool, worth every penny.
why would you give a s about the factory conditions and workers rights ??
@@TaylorDanleyI have to argue that the vibe comes from the tone though haha
@@naturalianoss cause I'm a lefty and I think people should be treated well no matter where they are in the world.
@@riffsnoleads treating people well should not be dictated by a political ideology...also treating well people that would never care about us or even harm us if possible it is a bad idea ..
As someone who builds pedals (part time), I'll throw in my 2 cents... When I started out I had a bunch of electronics experience, but didn't know anything about guitar amp/pedal/tone circuits. I built a few "clones" of pedals (and amps) that I wanted for myself but couldn't afford. The more I learned about how they worked, the more I started to tweak the circuits to get them to sound "better" to my ear, or add in some control that I felt was missing, etc. Would the new "tweaked" circuit be considered plagiarism? I guess not legally. Then there's this... Electronics are interesting and frustrating at the same time. You can build 2 identical circuits and they will sound a little different, or you can build 2 different circuits and they will sound the same. There are a bunch of different ways to design a tone stack or a gain control. There are many circuits that work completely different but accomplish the same thing. I personally wouldn't feel right about selling a "counterfeit" (a.k.a. chibson). But where do we draw the line between the terms "counterfeit" and "based on". I don't know. I guess supply and demand will always win... If I want something but I can't afford to buy or build it, I will (and have) get the less expensive alternative.
Good take. I agree, I think when people add their own elements or tweak the design it becomes a new thing IMO. It’s one of the things I love about the pedal industry, no - we don’t need another tube screamer clone, but throw in a gate or a sweepable mid control and now it’s a new tool
Is your Jackson a custom shop right? Thanks for the vid mate 👍🏻
The Precision Drive is itself a clone of the Pro Tone Attack Drive. That’s the way the pedal game goes. lol.
I ordered one demonfx PD in early 2022 because I prefer an external boost even using a multifx, after 1 year I selled (at the time I owned other multifx, and think that I don't needed an external pedal because of that), and god, how I regreted this. A few months ago, I was studying buy the original one, but because of the price of the dollar in my country, I bought another demonfx Precision Drive. It's amazing pedal with amazing price, I do not know other boost pedal with same result
The morality of buying clone pedals for me comes down to what kind of company the original pedal is manufactured by.
If the original pedal is made by some mom n pop operation out of a dudes garage, I would not buy a clone. But if it’s a big company like Roland, I don’t give a shit
Can of worms to open. I wonder what amp builders think about captures in the wild and in every effects modeler. Tonex the next napster situation?
Established folks will continue to patronize the original companies if they feel they're worth it. Clones open up the world of pedals to every kid who wants to pick up a guitar.
Also, is the horizon pedal without the true bypass coloring the sound of the demonfx?
I have that Demon FX Freedman pedal I love it. Plus got it for $50.
I think... That I always long after the original genuine product, but my wallet wants me to order that demonfx...
I love any video that roasts Agnesi
I got tricked into buying the Demonfx Bass Overdrive because it is named and looks exactly like the Darkglass version. It's ok, but I think I might get an MXR M80 or Tech 21 Bass DI, and run this to stack the gain.
Imagine a scenario where the clone and the original sound the same, but the clone is half the price. They are both made on the same assembly line. If you buy the clone basically what happens is that the company owner /affiliated person does not get the revenue.
This was a very interesting video. One of the best I have seen on this topic of cloning and copyright. In a bit of a nutshell, most gear is a copy or a modified version of something before it. I guess Demon FX go a little bit far by also making the cases look the same as the pedal it cloned. Is that unethical? By definition…..yes. However, one of the main issues would be how many sales have been lost by the company of the original pedal that has been cloned. If it’s none does it really matter? Can that even be measured? I own a couple of Demon FX pedals and I have found them to be excellent for the home studio. $400 Aud for a Horizon Drive or $40 for the Demon FX version. Times are tough so I can’t really see these clones going away.
Interesting video and topic. Wonder what Misha Mansoor's take is on this clone of his pedal...
i have the 66 and for 45 bucks well worth it
Co-signed. I'm not paying $300 for an overdrive that's a copy of another anyway.
ESD strap will save you from discharge damage on the board and components.
Maybe it shouldn't be a factor, but I have less of a problem with the Horizon Devices ripoff since it's really MXR's Mansoor division. Hopping up prices on stuff they've done before. Or even a tube screamer clone with their smart gate shoved in. Sure! Rip those guys off all day. (Joyo Chopper Z is Apex Preamp) But Demonfx go after Darkglass and Keeley. JHS. Their Fortin 33 knock-off was altered for legal reasons. Wonder why Friedman hasn't been as successful?
Meh, The Horizon Devices is a pretentious MXR built Tubescreamer clone. I definitely wouldn't feel bad about buying a DemonFX.
Mosky has been doing some interesting things with their clones recently, offering a dial that switches out diodes and different mods, at least this is a bit of value added to the clone and not just a straight copy. The sad thing about the DemonFX is copying the trade dress of the pedals they clone. At least, Joyo for instance uses their own branding and style and occasionally changes the circuit a little bit.
Engl for the win! I did see the NEED for the pedal to imitate what the Engl does naturally
So are computers, microwaves, cars, air conditioners etc
I don't have a problem with copied circuits or less expensive options. It can be great for players on a budget, new players, or people that just want to try out a circuit before dropping 200+ on a pedal. I'm not comfortable with copying trade dress. At that point they aren't offering a clone, they are potentially deceiving people about what they're buying. It's reasonable to think that a person not as aware could purchase the Demonfx thinking they're getting the Horizon pedal. I feel the same way about the look of some of Warm Audio's stuff. So circuit copying is pretty standard and I like having options but copying trade dress is not cool.
I have a DemonFX TubeScreamer II, its my go to overdrive for boosting the high gain channel of my amps.
I suggest that every "Butique" pedal brands should have to match the pedal design 100% and perfectly, to the original circuit, so that they are unable to hide behind their stupid mojo myth statements or theft of DIY Community Circuit, now forced to reveal that they simply offer you Yet Another Tube Screamer or Yet Another Big Muff.
No more "Vintage Class A Germanium Preamp", but rather simply a Range Master Boost.
Copying is not the sin! There is no copyright on Schematics! Claiming original design when it is actually theft on the other hand... That deserves to be revealed for everyone to know.
Are you paying attention JHS Josh? When are you going to credit RunnoffGroove for the Superbolt, and Tim Escobedo for the octave section of the Lizard Queen, even though Tim clearly states that his circuits are not for commercial use?
Vertex douchbag... Are you going to credit Jack Orman or do you still insist that it is your own design?
This industry is riddled with Snake Oil
Learn to read schematics and it all becomes crystal clear: Deception everywhere!
The Horizon devices precision Drive is also a rip off as well.
Horizon Devices pedals are made cheap. I had a Flux Echo that I loved but the components on the inside were super fragile to the point that the pedal didn’t even work anymore. That’s also why I have no sympathy for Horizon Devices getting cloned.
I know you're talking about the pedals, but my man, that guitar is a show stealer. Simply awesome aesthetic and I bet it plays so well.
Yeah I love it lol
I have a lot of overdrives, my favorite for awhile was my mud killer, until I looked at the precision drive, then found a clone video, then purchased the clone for $30 on eBay, now it’s my main go-to 😂😂😂😂😂 DONT JUDGE ME