This ending is not advocating for collectivism. It makes it very clear that in order to be an idividual you need the existence of others. If all souls merge into one, there is no one else to compare yourself to. I feel that instrumentality was a success in that it made Shinji/all participants realize this. The merging of souls led to the conclusion that they should not remain merged. So yes there is a bit missing here where instrumentality is outright rejected, but Shinji does learn that it is good to be himself and that borders are necessary. The AT-Fields have to be upheld and not done away with.
Also I recommend watching Anno's next anime: "Kare Kano". It is a high school romance but it very much carries heavy themes and presents well-realized characters. Some would say it is a thematical continuation of Eva and that Anno's directing has improved. Needless to say it's really good, probably the best romance I've ever watched.
My personal "director's cut" of Evangelion would look like this: episodes 1-24, then first half of EoE (Asuka battle, Rei rejects Gendo, final kiss from Misato), then episodes 25-26. Total departure from traditional narrative works much better to sell "instrumentality" as something otherworldly. It is actually more radical and impactful then EoE macabre monstrosities in my opinion. And it is obvious that Shinji rejects instrumentality at the end! Maybe last scene should still be LCL shore with Shinji and Asuka from EoE, to make it work perfectly...
You said you were expecting shinji to be the one to reject the human instrumentality project and that's exactly what we get here. The HIP, at least from my view, was the regression back to a single existence born from lilith. It was a way to run away from reality of being hurt by other people by returning to one entity. Shinji accepts individuality (and in turn he also accepts getting hurt). He rejected nothingness and the freedom it entails. To sum it up it's him and the other voice that says "But maybe I can learn to love myself." at 1:23:02 basically saying that because they are alive maybe life is worth living even though living is pain, or something like that. I get what mean that it's too sweet though. The message of loving yourself is approaching /r/wowthanksimcured material with how well shinji takes it. I think Hideaki Anno was aiming for an optimistic ending for certain reasons. There's a lot of post-watch material to read/watch so I'll leave it to you to form your own opinions. The best way to consume eva is to be as informed about the show as much as you want to be and to take away what YOU found from it.
Nice one! I'm looking forward to EoE and the post movie/entire series discussion. On another note, the history behind the production of episode 25/26 and the EoE movie is an eventful one. I think it's something that everyone should learn more about after finishing the series and movie.
I enjoyed the discussion. I agree strongly with your comments on individualism and collectivism, but I interpret 25/26 as more of a rejection of instrumentality. Or rather, I think that the experience helps him understand the perspectives of the others in his life, and how they differ from what he imagined, but he ultimately rejects it. EoE makes this point much more strongly for me, but it's made here as well. The world of instrumentality is depicted as a dark interrogation room and then later, a void with so many degrees of freedom that it's disorientating for a human mind. He’s reminded that his own self image is partly formed through his interactions with others, but in instrumentality the lines between people blur. He says: "When there are others, I can perceive myself as an individual.” [Without that] “There will be no difference between myself and nothing!” This exposes the lie of instrumentality, that it promises a world without pain caused by the distinctions between people (represented in-show as the AT field), but it’s also a world of nothingness and stagnation. When the world shatters I see it as him escaping the mental traps he’d placed himself in and learning self-actualization and that he has other possibilities in life. BTW, I'm also watching 3-Gatsu at the moment (up to #17) and I'm seeing a similar struggle in Kyouko, who really needs to learn this for herself.
2 года назад
Watching this "with you" was my 4th time through the series and I again cried at the end. Such a strong message
I would just say (and you may address this in the EoE review) that it feels deliberately vague whether Shinji is accepting or rejecting instrumentality at the end there. The situation (all the people around him pressing him to conform to their desires and him being rewarded with praise for finally doing so, AKA exactly what he criticizes himself for constantly doing) certainly suggests that he has accepted instrumentality except what the people are pressing him to do is not to behave in a socially approved way but to instead see himself as a person worthy of love and respect regardless of if he does what people want him to do. He might not have fully embraced it, but he sees a path forward where he accepts himself as who he is, a light at the end of the tunnel and if that's the case the other people in his mental space are affirming his decision to embrace his individuality. I've heard the case for both sides.
This'll probably turn into a bit of a rambling story so, sorry. NGE is one of my favorite anime ever and I've watched it way too many times. This was my first time actually watching 25+26 though. The first time I went through I, for some reason, didn't have access to 25+26 and so I skipped right to EoE. On all of my rewatches, I kept skipping them. I think I just liked having two episodes that I could watch for the first time. I can definitely see how some fans were disappointed by this, but I absolutely loved it. The artsy, experimental side of Evangelion is why I like it so much so two full episodes of "What?" was amazing.
thats super interesting actually cool you had a slightly different experience and watched some new content with a fresh perspective /help from someone like Tee
12:02 - "A conversation in the form of a battle erupts (or a battle in the form of a conversation), and that conversation leads to one side or the other opening their heart, and the side that opens its heart loses[...] The winner of the fight always end up abusing their position, making this a toxic loop of interaction." Well, it seems Kaguya-sama was an Eva reference all along (this is almost the exact wording of the synopsis lol) :D :D Seriously though, there are a lot of thematic overlaps when you think about it... Like even though they can feel their mutual love, nobody can really understand another person, and so they are afraid of suffering. Their childishness is played for comedic effect there but in the end they are just Shinji...
Just finished your reactions to EVA and just wanna say these are probably the best and most insightful reactions to the show I've ever seen. You picked up on stuff I've never even noticed and I've seen the show at least 5 times. If you liked EVA I definitely recommend you check out Anno's shoujo romance series Kare Kano. One of the best anime I've seen. Hope you check it sometime in the future
The idea of all of humanity being (forcibly) evolved into a higher form of collective One-Mind/Soul Entity is one of my favorites in fiction. I forget the source, for forgive me on that, but I read that Anno (or at least someone big on the dev team) for Neon Genesis was heavily inspired by the book Childhood's End (written by Arthur C Clarke, who also wrote 2001: A Space Odyssey, which also has a clear influence on the series). Childhood's End happens to be my favorite novel ever, and the conflict of humanity facing the frightening and scary prospect of Complete Unification is handled so beautifully and brilliantly. For people interested in the theme, I can't recommend this Sci-Fi masterpiece enough. It also deals with a lot of other awesome themes; and has one of the best openings to any story ever: on the verge of nuclear war, alien starships appear over every city and announce across the globe that they are enforcing peace and equality on all nations. -and Humanity has no fucking clue how to react.
I know this is quite confusing at first and by now you must know the real answer but it's hinted that instrumentality stopped at the very end sine Shinji accepts himself as an indivual person. So the show doesn't presents collectivism, to the contrary it is against it.
In all honesty, I.. some what prefer this end. This is the original ending. And I enjoy it more than the ending that was created just because everyone hated on this ending. I do feel that we could have gotten more closure on Shinjis story, or at least give us enough to interpret an ending. But I enjoy this ending. Not everything deserves a happy ending, but Evangelion did deserve one.
unless you have 5.1 headphones, the audio is only gonna play the front left and right speaker streams, and the rest will be unheard. i'd reccomend either using the stereo audio for the best experience, or exporting the 5.1 audio and downmixing it to stereo in audacity, then readding it in something like mkvtoolnix.
Now that you're done with eva, i would like to reccomend baccano and durarara, they're good shows known for being a bit chaotic, kinda like shiki but a different kind of chaos, it would be fun to watch you try to make sense of the mess. Rebuilds are bad, but you should watch them (POTENTIAL SPOILER: I understand that Anno is making a meta introspection thing with the audience and anime fans but i think it's really bad executed, anyway, let's wait for 4.0). That's all, keep the good work and congratulations. ruclips.net/video/1Bix44C1EzY/видео.html
Did anyone question why one of the reis in Reid reflection was that of a child rei who looks slightly different from our rei. But my question is how is she a child when rei was never a child in the real world as far as we know ? The other reis always stayed in the tank for body parts until needed so why is there a child rei in her mind if she supposedly never was one ?
There was a child Rei, though. The one Ritsuko's mother killed was a child, and then she was immediately replaced with another child Rei who then grew up to be 15 and died in unit 00.
This ending is not advocating for collectivism. It makes it very clear that in order to be an idividual you need the existence of others. If all souls merge into one, there is no one else to compare yourself to. I feel that instrumentality was a success in that it made Shinji/all participants realize this. The merging of souls led to the conclusion that they should not remain merged. So yes there is a bit missing here where instrumentality is outright rejected, but Shinji does learn that it is good to be himself and that borders are necessary. The AT-Fields have to be upheld and not done away with.
Also I recommend watching Anno's next anime: "Kare Kano". It is a high school romance but it very much carries heavy themes and presents well-realized characters. Some would say it is a thematical continuation of Eva and that Anno's directing has improved. Needless to say it's really good, probably the best romance I've ever watched.
This. He completely rejected Instrumentality. He says he wants to be himself, which he can't be when he's merged with everybody else.
@@menage6051 that anime is a master piece.
My personal "director's cut" of Evangelion would look like this: episodes 1-24, then first half of EoE (Asuka battle, Rei rejects Gendo, final kiss from Misato), then episodes 25-26. Total departure from traditional narrative works much better to sell "instrumentality" as something otherworldly. It is actually more radical and impactful then EoE macabre monstrosities in my opinion. And it is obvious that Shinji rejects instrumentality at the end!
Maybe last scene should still be LCL shore with Shinji and Asuka from EoE, to make it work perfectly...
Congratulations!
👏👏👏
Omedetou 👏
You said you were expecting shinji to be the one to reject the human instrumentality project and that's exactly what we get here. The HIP, at least from my view, was the regression back to a single existence born from lilith. It was a way to run away from reality of being hurt by other people by returning to one entity. Shinji accepts individuality (and in turn he also accepts getting hurt). He rejected nothingness and the freedom it entails. To sum it up it's him and the other voice that says "But maybe I can learn to love myself." at 1:23:02 basically saying that because they are alive maybe life is worth living even though living is pain, or something like that.
I get what mean that it's too sweet though. The message of loving yourself is approaching /r/wowthanksimcured material with how well shinji takes it. I think Hideaki Anno was aiming for an optimistic ending for certain reasons. There's a lot of post-watch material to read/watch so I'll leave it to you to form your own opinions. The best way to consume eva is to be as informed about the show as much as you want to be and to take away what YOU found from it.
Nice one! I'm looking forward to EoE and the post movie/entire series discussion. On another note, the history behind the production of episode 25/26 and the EoE movie is an eventful one. I think it's something that everyone should learn more about after finishing the series and movie.
I enjoyed the discussion. I agree strongly with your comments on individualism and collectivism, but I interpret 25/26 as more of a rejection of instrumentality. Or rather, I think that the experience helps him understand the perspectives of the others in his life, and how they differ from what he imagined, but he ultimately rejects it. EoE makes this point much more strongly for me, but it's made here as well.
The world of instrumentality is depicted as a dark interrogation room and then later, a void with so many degrees of freedom that it's disorientating for a human mind. He’s reminded that his own self image is partly formed through his interactions with others, but in instrumentality the lines between people blur. He says: "When there are others, I can perceive myself as an individual.” [Without that] “There will be no difference between myself and nothing!” This exposes the lie of instrumentality, that it promises a world without pain caused by the distinctions between people (represented in-show as the AT field), but it’s also a world of nothingness and stagnation.
When the world shatters I see it as him escaping the mental traps he’d placed himself in and learning self-actualization and that he has other possibilities in life.
BTW, I'm also watching 3-Gatsu at the moment (up to #17) and I'm seeing a similar struggle in Kyouko, who really needs to learn this for herself.
Watching this "with you" was my 4th time through the series and I again cried at the end. Such a strong message
Congratulations on the finish.👏
Please also watch Theater version EPISODE: 25 『Air / Love is destructive.』and ONE MORE FINAL『まごころを、君に / I need you.』.
EoE reaction will be public tomorrow :)
I love to see episode 26 as anno's commentary on escaping into anime as just another form of running away
I would just say (and you may address this in the EoE review) that it feels deliberately vague whether Shinji is accepting or rejecting instrumentality at the end there. The situation (all the people around him pressing him to conform to their desires and him being rewarded with praise for finally doing so, AKA exactly what he criticizes himself for constantly doing) certainly suggests that he has accepted instrumentality except what the people are pressing him to do is not to behave in a socially approved way but to instead see himself as a person worthy of love and respect regardless of if he does what people want him to do. He might not have fully embraced it, but he sees a path forward where he accepts himself as who he is, a light at the end of the tunnel and if that's the case the other people in his mental space are affirming his decision to embrace his individuality.
I've heard the case for both sides.
This'll probably turn into a bit of a rambling story so, sorry. NGE is one of my favorite anime ever and I've watched it way too many times. This was my first time actually watching 25+26 though. The first time I went through I, for some reason, didn't have access to 25+26 and so I skipped right to EoE. On all of my rewatches, I kept skipping them. I think I just liked having two episodes that I could watch for the first time.
I can definitely see how some fans were disappointed by this, but I absolutely loved it. The artsy, experimental side of Evangelion is why I like it so much so two full episodes of "What?" was amazing.
thats super interesting actually
cool you had a slightly different experience and watched some new content with a fresh perspective /help from someone like Tee
おめでとう！
12:02 - "A conversation in the form of a battle erupts (or a battle in the form of a conversation), and that conversation leads to one side or the other opening their heart, and the side that opens its heart loses[...] The winner of the fight always end up abusing their position, making this a toxic loop of interaction."
Well, it seems Kaguya-sama was an Eva reference all along (this is almost the exact wording of the synopsis lol) :D :D Seriously though, there are a lot of thematic overlaps when you think about it... Like even though they can feel their mutual love, nobody can really understand another person, and so they are afraid of suffering. Their childishness is played for comedic effect there but in the end they are just Shinji...
i love this comment lol
Just finished your reactions to EVA and just wanna say these are probably the best and most insightful reactions to the show I've ever seen. You picked up on stuff I've never even noticed and I've seen the show at least 5 times. If you liked EVA I definitely recommend you check out Anno's shoujo romance series Kare Kano. One of the best anime I've seen. Hope you check it sometime in the future
The idea of all of humanity being (forcibly) evolved into a higher form of collective One-Mind/Soul Entity is one of my favorites in fiction.
I forget the source, for forgive me on that, but I read that Anno (or at least someone big on the dev team) for Neon Genesis was heavily inspired by the book Childhood's End (written by Arthur C Clarke, who also wrote 2001: A Space Odyssey, which also has a clear influence on the series).
Childhood's End happens to be my favorite novel ever, and the conflict of humanity facing the frightening and scary prospect of Complete Unification is handled so beautifully and brilliantly. For people interested in the theme, I can't recommend this Sci-Fi masterpiece enough. It also deals with a lot of other awesome themes; and has one of the best openings to any story ever: on the verge of nuclear war, alien starships appear over every city and announce across the globe that they are enforcing peace and equality on all nations. -and Humanity has no fucking clue how to react.
EoE will fill the gap, you should see again 25+26 after it.
I know this is quite confusing at first and by now you must know the real answer but it's hinted that instrumentality stopped at the very end sine Shinji accepts himself as an indivual person. So the show doesn't presents collectivism, to the contrary it is against it.
In all honesty, I.. some what prefer this end. This is the original ending. And I enjoy it more than the ending that was created just because everyone hated on this ending.
I do feel that we could have gotten more closure on Shinjis story, or at least give us enough to interpret an ending.
But I enjoy this ending. Not everything deserves a happy ending, but Evangelion did deserve one.
unless you have 5.1 headphones, the audio is only gonna play the front left and right speaker streams, and the rest will be unheard. i'd reccomend either using the stereo audio for the best experience, or exporting the 5.1 audio and downmixing it to stereo in audacity, then readding it in something like mkvtoolnix.
おめでとう🎉
Shinji did reject instrumentality
A bsolute
T error
FIELD
"oh my goshh his eyes"
Now that you're done with eva, i would like to reccomend baccano and durarara, they're good shows known for being a bit chaotic, kinda like shiki but a different kind of chaos, it would be fun to watch you try to make sense of the mess.
Rebuilds are bad, but you should watch them (POTENTIAL SPOILER: I understand that Anno is making a meta introspection thing with the audience and anime fans but i think it's really bad executed, anyway, let's wait for 4.0).
That's all, keep the good work and congratulations.
ruclips.net/video/1Bix44C1EzY/видео.html
Did anyone question why one of the reis in Reid reflection was that of a child rei who looks slightly different from our rei. But my question is how is she a child when rei was never a child in the real world as far as we know ? The other reis always stayed in the tank for body parts until needed so why is there a child rei in her mind if she supposedly never was one ?
Rei was a child at one point. You can see her in ep. 21. The clones in the tank all grew up alongside her.
There was a child Rei, though. The one Ritsuko's mother killed was a child, and then she was immediately replaced with another child Rei who then grew up to be 15 and died in unit 00.
*PenPen noises* (Congratulations)
why I can't see your video???
i think video have a problem
it's just dark and sound only
Please watch the movies Evangelion
you losing it bro... it was so easy
ending doesn't present instrumentality positive at all. it totally advocates for individuality
@Some Girl which springs from individuality.
Congratulations!