Comparing Guitar Capacitors Orange Drop vs Paper in Oil solved !
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 фев 2023
- Finally a TRUE comparison of popular guitar capacitors. An expalination of how a guitar tone circuit actually works and capacitor material type explained.
Развлечения
The paper in oil and the vintage cap are definitely my favourites. Thank you very much for the excellent presentation!!
You are so welcome!
Friggin Jimmi S. You are an asset to the guitar community. I have 3 of your circuits in my guitars and they are top notch and have taken my guitars from great to FANTASTIC. Brilliant Video!!!
Thank you good sir. Looking to take some of the myth and mystery out of cap selection. Keep rockin, bro!
Really great stuff. Skills are amazing...
Such an interesting subject, and so subjective...Such a variety of tone.
Highly educational.
Thank you.
Great vid Jimmi -- keep em coming
We gonna keep on truckin'
Excellent Side by Side Comparison with explanation.
Thank you!
In my opinion, it doesn't matter if it does make a difference or not as long as you are happy with the result and you love the tone of your guitar afterwards.
Opinions are like
Nice video brother guitarist. My preference is orange drop 0.015 and 0.010. And of course it depends on my pickups and position of the switching between them plus the Amp and effects chain. There's a lot of variables when it comes to electric guitar tone.
Chambered LP with P-90s. Tried a whole bunch, but ended up with a very small cap. Like .005 uF
I think you got the wrong taper in your test rig pot, because little is happening untill you dial it well down low. It should be a smoother change accross the range, especially on the orange drop.
You're up there with Jim Lil in myth-busting guitar conventions!
Thank you, sir.
I have a Les Paul with Gibson 4900r / 500t pickups. I installed some PIO caps, the old soviet ones that you see advertised on youtube and it changed the tone quite drastically. Not subtle changes at all. It also increased the sustain quite a bit. So when people say it makes no difference, I just roll my eyes. They may not make a difference in combination with some pickup and Pot combinations. But in my guitar..BIG difference.
It makes a difference to those that can hear it. Some have the mojo and some don’t.
Let me put it like this. After I changed them to PIO, my wife asked "why does your guiatr sound different"? She did not see me working on it or know, she does not play guitar and has no interest. So if a third party with no knowledge heard enough of a difference that she commented without prompting, then quite clearly a real difference in tone did infact occur. Im sorry if this upsets people who have convinced themself that no they cant change anything, but it really does. Nor "mojo" or some other imaginary nonsense, but an actuall sound difference. ANYTHING that affects the current from the moment the pickup creates an electric impulse to when that reaches the speaker, can and usually does change the tone in some way.@@jerseyshoreguitargarage
Well, did you MEASURE the actual capacity of the caps? In most cases any changes in the tone are originating in sometimes very large capacity variances - especially when using OLD capacitors.
First you say they dont make a difference. Now you admit they absolutely can. Thanks for correcting yourself.@@Andreas_Straub
Yes, but it is the actual capacitance value which makes the difference and NOT the type of the capacitor!@@markde9904
A guitar PU does produce AC as the string moves towards or away from the magnet. It's different in an amp. Since your supply is DC you have a bias point and the AC wave is duplicated as a wave that goes above and below the bias voltage.
Orange Drop .22 Medium Riff 9:27
PIO .22 Medium Riff 12:53
Junk Ceramic Cap .22 Medium Riff 20:56
By the way, I think for my ears I enjoy the treble of the Orange Drop! Thanks for this comparison!
Thank you for the timestamps!
Thanks
Thanks for the video!
PIO .047uf 10:06 and 11:15
PIO .022uf 12:10 and 13:26
PIO .039uf 14:33 and 16:11
Sorry this is for my own reference 😊 I'm considering .047uf for neck and .022uf for bridge and middle.
Thank you for doing this! I need to separate the videos.
Did you select the caps for all having the same measured capacitance? If not, the whole comparison is not scientifically relevant. These parts offer sometimes really very large capacitance differences and thus also tone differences.
One more suggestion on how to improve such a comparison:
Cut the video parts for the different cap types (not too long: max. 5s, as the audio memory of people is that short) directly back to back and do mix the sequence - do not mark the cap type. This way the listener can select the favourite sound by listening only. Then show which number was which cap - this way approaching a double blind test and some more realistic results.
Thanks for your input. I will be sure to check out your video on capacitors.
I honestly think this is wasted effort as it will not lead to any significant result ....@@jerseyshoreguitargarage
Very cool Jimmi. Can I assume that was an audio pot in the little tester box?
Yes, audio taper 500k
Wow - great video. Never knew any of this.
So what if you combined different types of caps in series/parallel - how hould that effect the tone? E.g a 0.022uf orange cap and 0.022uf paper and oil in parallel would give 0.044uf total capacitance but how would the different types combinre to affect the tone?
Try it...
@@Old_Sailor85fax!!! As a matter of fact imma do just that. Fuck around and find out
I like how you explained everything I just wished you atleast included timestamps for every test so my ears would would listen to each demo fresh. Still gonna like the vid though
Not a bad idea. Maybe part 2?
@JERSEY SHORE GUITAR GARAGE I think there's a way to edit them in on this video. I see ppl do it in comment sections all the time. And they pin the comment so you see it at the top everytime you open the comments. I just have figured out how to do it yet.
Also, I agree with the paper and oil take. I was told that you can't hear a capacitor until you roll off some tone. But in this test and in others I've seen even with tone all the way up, there are some differences. Ppl say the material doesn't make a difference in guitars bc the tone rolls off to ground, but this test is different. The tone here isn't rolling to the ground, I don't believe. In my opinion, I think that's where the argument lives mostly--in the testing procedure. If you're making a secondary circuit and passing the signal to it through a cable then you have the capacitance of the cable to account for as well.
22 paper/oil gor 2 guitars i will be changeing them to
I have a Warmoth La Cabronita that has a Tv Jones Paul Yandell in the bridge (bridge pu only). I had a treble bleed on the volume pot & a .0047 on the tone pot. I got the .0047 because I thought I wanted a "cocked wah" tone. Well, the tone in my head is much different from the reality I'm hearing. I can't stand it. Turning down the volume makes the treble way too pronounced and turning down the tone pot didn't really turn down the treble, it just created a hugely unpleasant midrange hump. I disliked it so much that I opened up the guitar and ripped the treble bleed off. I was going to do the same thing to the .0047, but my luthier put it in a place where I'm not comfortable going. Removing the treble bleed improved the situation, but I still need to replace the Mallory .0047uF with a Paper-In-Oil .022uF, as that's what I thought sounded the best and produced a change in tone quicker than the .047. It seems like the .047 doesn't change much until it's reached the 2-0 range and on 0, it's super dull. The .022 Paper-In-Oil didn't take what seemed like, all of the treble as did the .047. I'm curious to hear how the .047 would sound on zero, but with a rig or just an od pedal set to produce a lot of high end. Can the .047 Paper-In-Oil be pushed into a "sweet spot" on zero? Something tells me that a hot overdrive with a .047 on zero would sound super creamy.
.047 is a little dull at zero. For the trick you are looking for (I do this on my SG)
Use a .015uF and turn that to zero. Total cream-ville.
@@jerseyshoreguitargarage Solid advice; I'll give it a try. Thank you!
Could also be your pots
I guess AC is how your looking at it. The current flow in the circuit that the cap sees does change direction. As the voltage goes below the bias voltage it becomes negative to it. with AC power the voltage goes to 0 then swings negative then back to 0 then positive etc. The point is the cap works cause it's trying to equalize a fluctuating voltage in the circuit. With DC it reaches voltage and stay's. The other point is it's not actually going "thru" the cap. Current is electrons moving from atom to atom, this is blocked by the dielectric. They accumulate on one plate and deplete on the other. Then it happens in reverse, causing current to flow in the rest of the circuit, but not "thru"the cap.
The cap in your guitar only "see" the part of your signal that go in ground...
Good explanation, except that you are explaining what gets thru the capacitor to ground, when people are concerned what gets "left over" to get thru to the output. But, if the viewers listen to you carefully, they'll see that their understanding is backwards: Caps determine the how much lower freq sound gets deducted from the output...not how much treble gets added. In other words, it's a case of the ratio of highs to lows that changes with the cap value. When the cutoff value of what is going to ground is increased, the higher ratio of treble makes the whole sound more "bright". But, it's because of less bass...not more actual treble.
In addition, a lot of this is personal and subjective. And, in a fair test, you would not know what cap is installed. In addition, you should be actually measuring each component's capacitance, rather than trusting its nominal value.
That’s what we said
Paper in Oil !
My personal favorite!
When the tone knob is all the way up, the circuit still cuts some of the high frequencies.
Of Course . That's why (as a 500K pot is the standard ) a 1000K will give you more treble and a 250K less .Pots do nothing on 0 not on 10
Whats your thoughts..orange drop,or bumblebee....lol
Like orange drop capacitors, better. The paper in oil breaks up too much. Which can be a good thing. But I would rather have break-up from pushing the head room of an amp. Or overdriving undersized speakers such as vintage greenbacks. At least with the ODC I have a choice of being clean or dirty vs dirty all the time.
I use oil caps in my jazz guitar. It never breaks up. Breakup does not come from caps. Please watch the video again.
@@jerseyshoreguitargarage interesting. I'll listen with a good set of headphones.
Yeah I don't have a problem with the orange drop capacitors. Simply because they will last forever. To be honest I had the original fish cap in the 83 Tele forever and it was fine. Till about 5 years ago, finally got tired of the buzzing and resoldered modern insulated wires to the pickups and twisted em up tight, copper shielding and an orange drop cap. Basically took out 85% of the 60cycle hum. And that is that. Not touching that guitar until I am dead and it is my daughter's guitar to do as she pleases.
Your audience won't know the difference, even if you can hear the tiniest subtle difference.
The Eric Johnson Strats use a crappy .1 ceramic disc cap as did some 50's Fender guitars back in the 50's.
Seems rather large, no?
This really requires the expertise of none other than Harry Callahan!
Some vintage ceramic disks sounded GREAT! Hard to find them now..... I have one.
@@jerseyshoreguitargarage I replaced the .1 in the EJ strat with various values and for what ever reason, probably the pickups, that guitar only sounded right with a .1
To my knowledge Fender typically never uses boutique capacitors. However Fender does sell an expensive treble bleed capacitor for the volume potentiometer. I paid around $40 for it. Maybe I got ripped off but I do like it a lot
You're assuming that all PIO and all cermaic capacitors will create the same sound and that's simply not the case. Also, the capacitor is just one of many things that affect the tone. Those 50 Strats may have sounded good not because of the ceramic capacitors but inspite of them. Any and everything that affects the electrical signal has a role in tone. No one piece, pickup, capacitor, potentiometer, on its own determibnes the sound. It is how they all work together.
With paper in oil I hear more sound
No, it does store a charge even in a guitar. A cap blocks all current DC and AC. Two leads are insulated from each other with a dielectric. In an amp it's not even really AC it's pulsating DC. It varies more or less positive in relation to the bias voltage. True AC would be a alternating of polarity. What happens is as it charges and dis-charges it causes current to flow in the rest of the circuit, never actually "passing thru" the cap. The speed at which it does this (it's mf, pf, etc. rating) is what allows diff freq's. A ,022 is .022 no matter the material. It's a time based measurement. The mis-information of how a cap works in a circuit is what causes all these wild claims about them. The tolerance of it's rating has a huge effect on tone. Usually 5-20% while even a 1% diff can be heard. Usually in a change of the resonant peak more than a treble cut. You won't hear a treble diff in a .022 vs .023 but will hear the change in resonant freq. It's more complex than just swapping around some caps, then throw in the possibility of placebo n good luck. Forget about caps n change your speaker or try a different guitar.
A 20% cap could be within 1%. It varies from capacitor to capacitor. 20% only means that it's within 20%, not that it's 20% off.
In a passive circuit, yes, I doubt different materials make a difference. I'm not certain of it. I only doubt it. However, in active circuits, different materials can make a difference. In the real world, capacitors are more than just their capacitance. First to mind is what inductance does it have? But there are other factors as well. And why are ceramic caps so noisy? And electrolytics even noisier? That isn't a factor of capacitance.
But getting back to them being in a passive circuit, such as a guitar, I'm not aware of how different types would be different in sound (one could easily measure a bunch of each type to arrive at caps off almost identical capacitance in the different types. If all measure to the same value, I don't see how different types would make a difference. But in active circuits, different types can make a difference. And have proven to make a difference.
If it were found to make a difference in the passive tone circuit of guitars, I'd like to know how and why. But until then, I find myself in agreement in that I doubt it could make an audible difference.
@@lonpollard902 I didn't mean to imply they were allway's 20%. Just they could be. Even checking them leaves room for error. It's very hard to measure a 1pf diff in say a .022mf cap. Now the other day I was working on a tone stack and was surprised I could notice when I added a 1pf cap to the treble cap. Then consider 1% of a .022 cap is .00022. That's 22pf. In a guitar most of the time it's going thru a 250 to 500k pot. All this cap changing to find the "best" tone is? Thru a 500k pot you could go from a .022 to a .047 and in a band mix nobody would hear it. I guess for someone who just noodles in their house and focuses on every little nuance it matters. The diff in inductance between a ceramic or a mylar is negligible and then considering in a small cap used in audio it's inaudibly small to start with. Kinda why I say focus on something like a spkr where the audience might hear some difference. Or the "value"of a cap that someone might detect a tone diff , not what it's made of.
@@bradt.3555 I wasn't sure, so I was only making sure that people were aware of that. We're in agreement over differences in capacitance. I wasn't really sure if we disagreed on anything. Except perhaps, and I can't really say even with this one, that different cap types sometimes make a difference in some active circuits. There's more playing into it than just capacitance, sometimes in that case. But with the passive circuit of a guitars tone control, I too find it doubtful it would make a difference. But in terms of difference in capacitance, we're in agreement on that as well.
I knew an older electronics professor, decades ago, who explained that back in his repair days, they'd take a meter with them to electronics stores, and measure the resistance of resistors, picking out those of very close tolerance, rather than purchasing tighter tolerance resistors. They were getting more accurate values measuring resistors of low tolerance than they could have gotten purchasing resistors of higher tolerance. I have lots of extras of some resistors and capacitors, so I can measure out what their value. And if I want slightly higher or lower resistance or capacitance, I can pick out those that measure a little on the higher side, or lower side. Likewise with pots.
@bradt.3555 did you get your electrical engineering degree from a crackerjack box?
@@jerseyshoreguitargarage ,Well it appears it was a better place than you got your witty reply. If you disagree with something I've said, ah, just explain what it is you disagree with and why.
May he always protect you in his holy glory. ❤
In either case the cap is charging n dis-charging, AT THE SPEED DETERMINED BY IT'S VALUE.
Buy an EQ pedal problem solved
If that satisfies you… do it. Some people can’t feel the capacitor and that’s ok.
Tone capacitors are magical. They can add or take brightness away. And also they can really open dull pickups. So before you blame the pickups are bad, you can change the capacitor cheaply and your guitar can "come alive".
That’s right!
Wouldn't the tone test be more on point if a guitar with no tone knob was used?
Only VERY slightly. The .022 cap inside the guitar was still clamped 500K away from ground but still involved with the circuit. Not enough to affect our test since it was engaged for every cap. Good observation though.