The test that seems to be rarely included in deck testing is temperature. We chose wood because the plastic, composite (& metal) get uncomfortably hot in the sun.
While being a builder in SW Florida, I've worked with all of these materials except cedar on decks. Cedar in SW Florida is not usually an option when building decks that will last. While stain tests are nice, unfortunately the weather here can dictate which materials you use greatly. My experiences: Azak is my favorite overall, just ahead of Ipa. It will virtually last forever, expansion and contraction in the summer heat is minimal, and when face screwd, will hold up very well in Hurricanes. My only issue with Azak is that it does dent easier compared to Ipa. Now my dislikes with the hybrid style material: Recommends spacing the butt joints 1/4 inch for expansion with temperature. I personally think decks look better without gappings, but that's my opinion. Those gaps will grow and retract throughout the day, which could also make 45° joints appear mismatched if you have boarder pieces . Also if your OCD, those 1/4 inch gaps on the butting joints ( mainly on bigger decks that require more than 1 length of board, usually 20ft ) often are not consistent spacings when finished. Most of the time dependiding on what time of day you installed that particular board, some joints could differ from 1/8 to 3/8ths spacings by the next day. Azak does not require spacing butt joints. The other thing to keep in mind when building here in SW florida are hurricanes. One sided tie down boards like the trex system hidden screws are weaker to high winds during storms. Also if you need to replace an individual board you need to undo the boards leading up to it to reach the screws located on the one side. So what we do is always face screw 2 screws on 12inch centers 1" 3/16ths and 4" 3/8ths spacings ( with 5 and 9/16 average board widths ), which tested well during Erma and Charly and make an incredibly stiff deck. Ipa is just some premo material that is a great look if you want to keep it natural looking. It will decay over time, and is expensive to replace when needed. But, like the host said, its virtually indestructible when sealed. Those are just my experiences working in Florida, and I know that that much attention to stability isn't necessary in other climates. But that's my 2 cents in dealing with these decking materials. Hope this helps someone :)
I'm a little confused by this, as I have read that ipe lasts 50 years, while composite will last 25-30 years. While ipe seems to be more expensive than standard Trex, other brazilian hardwoods with comparable hardness run a similar price per SF.
I have to agree with several of the comments, Price per Foot for each of the boards would be very helpful, Fade Resistance over time outside and "bare foot walkability" around 2 pm on a hot, sunny day! Those are the things most of us would want to know before using them for a deck.
I used Ready Seal Natural Cedar when I built my deck last week and I have a couple of spare boards and tested the red wine. I left it for two hours and it did not penentrate through the Ready Seal and wiped right off. I think the sealer makes a massive difference. This was an interesting caparison. Thank you for sharing.
We put a mcdouble on the deck and found out the preservative seeped into the wood, and 30 years later it still looked perfect, the rest of the deck was rotted away except for a 4 inch circle where the burger had been interesting. Which is why I have created the all new Mcdecking.
We exclusively use moisture shield when we do composite, it's not capped, solid colour all the way through. We fix scratches from install with a lighter, works great
Finally... A company willing to even show a little bit of downside (honesty) in there product. This is refreshing and I'm glad you pointed it out and gave them credit for doing this. Makes me want to put them at the top of the list when considering deck products.
After 2 failed composite decks in Massachusetts I wanted ipe. After researching the cost and the upkeep I was talked into Azek. It has been down for YEARS with zero maintenance. Space every joist 12 inches or less or it is bouncy. I prefer the side grip attachment on slotted PVC... no holes... no water penetration.
I've walked on composite boards and notice how they bend a little under your feet. No issue with Ipe, extremely hard and durable in my opinion, and looks SOOOO much better.
Matt, you are a National Treasure. You really are. I’m a 72 year old (mostly retired) home builder. Your wide scan of topic matter and intelligent approach to them are awesome.
I am a woman and i know that bug spray/repellent always screws up my polished toenails and fingernails in the summer. It is almost like a stripper or a remover, destroys the smoothness and gloss! So it doesn’t surprise me that it messed with the finish on your deck boards. I actually thought it would do more damage than it actually did. Great test! I enjoy all of your videos, esp. these types. Keep up the good work and interesting content! Thanks Matt.
BTW a totally unbiased review. At first I was very nervous it would be about how great Azek was, and it looks pretty great, but the disadvantages it has weren't glossed over. Very commendable!
I have used untreated (Key:Untreated) clear cedar planks for four houses: two lake houses and two primary houses. If someone is evaluating a material for a new deck, you nailed it. Cedar has undeniable flaws. I have found that evaluating cedar in its infancy, as a freshly cut plant, misses the point: the most important qualities can only be seen and experienced over time. With only half a tongue in cheek, I say this: It has soul, it has wisdom, it can only be understood after you live with it and you become friends. While none of my friends have formally proposed to my cedar dock at the lake (26 ft x 19 ft protruding into beautiful water), many confess in heartfelt terms that they "really love it, a lot". Scary? You bet. Allow me to advocate on behalf of the often-maligned untreated cedar plank, for it is my favorite building material, albeit one that is often troubled and mistreated in its per-pubescent "fresh from the mill" years. Two opening premises: 1) if a flawless "indoor" or "fresh off the lot" look is what you want, don't bother with cedar - you’ll probably hate it; 2) evaluating new cedar decking is wrong-minded, much like evaluating a 15 yeaar old as an advisor to CEOs would be. Time is a friend to cedar decking. I have some brief metaphysical comments later, but let's start with fact based observations about (untreated) cedar planking from the last 40 years. a) you can't beat its "foot feel", b) despite misguided builder lore, it holds up remarkably well even on stairs - foot traffic rounds out the exposed edges and good cedar won't splinter (if you drag heavy solid objects up the stairs, not so much), c) cedar turns grey over time which, besides being beautiful, is the first step in how it ages well, d) PATINA is the unexpected x factor in cedar decks (think of a much loved 10 year old leather object you use a lot). Why? Early spills WILL horrify you. But, like your leather object, eventually the imperfections from use start to make things, ironically, better. You stop crying, start liking, and eventually love. Yes, unlike your formal dining room table and rug, every spill, scratch, ring from a wine glass, dropped hamburger, and horrifying stain eventually blends together and - together with sun's natural bleaching power - its look is cohesive. AND, largely self correcting. UV, Time, elements and blending of flaws make most stains go away. You STOP WORRYING about its lack of perfection and fall in love with how it converts a deck's mishaps into a "what, me worry" timeline of life where only dropped paint cans and ignoring algae growth in wet dark corners (easily scrubbed out) can wreck a good cedar deck e) occasional power washings and hand scrubbing with one of many cleaning agents (detergent with a hint of bleach for example) corrects virtually all assaults from ketchup, mustard, wine, oils, etc as long as you leave behind aspirations of unblemished perfection, f) cedar has personality and, for me, becomes a good friend which ages like you: beaten up by life, but never down and out, wearing some scars which make you smile and wink and even empathize with it because it progresses through it's life like many of us. A story of ups and downs but resilient and always better for having spent a day outdoors in the sun, g) sounds odd but this is KEY: if you live in a climate which is freezing and or wet for part of the year, it makes your life safer unless you stain or seal it. On untreated, quality cedar, water dissipates and quickly wicks down its grain. Drops of water do not freeze into hip breaking hemispheres of danger. By dissipating moisture, it dries remarkably quickly. When wet, it is not slippery (unless you let algae build up in which case it can get dangerously slippery). Cedar has your back. It becomes your friend. It is a good travel companion for life. Getting beaten up by life, bombarded by the sun, transitioning from cold to hot, wet to dry, going from freshly scrubbed to facing assaults of dropped burgers, kids' dirty feet, grandma's dropped coffee or wine or beer - cedar deals with that and the bruises heal. Miraculously, it always reverts to some version of a perfectly imperfect silver grey. It goes through life like we do: handling the ups and downs, body blows, unexpected mishaps, the good times and the bad times. But it picks itself up off the ground, sets its gaze towards better, prettier days in the future and moves forward without complaining. Over time you become good friends. You develop a shared history. You laugh at the fading stain from where your neighbor dropped the entire plate of ribs thinking you would hate him forever. It reminds you that a scratch or a stain ain't the end of the world and that wounds heal. Like a kitchen, it's cozy. It's where people want to be. Cedar hates the idea of a perfect life and understands the futility of aspiring to perfection and being young forever. Cedar gets it. Untreated cedar decks handle adversity better than 95% of the people I know and because of it's self healing resilience. Cedar decks, like good friends are are like best friends who have your back and make it easier to walk though life with your head held high, an appreciation for the simple pleasure of bare feet on kind wood, awareness of how time, love, and loyalty can heal. Every time I stand on one of my cedar decks, breezeways, or stairs I am content, at peace, in balance and fulfilled. Usually I have a smile on my face - c'mon man, you dropped the entire platter of ribs... and it landed face down. No worries neighbor. It'll look just fine real soon, it'll be gone soon after and we'll be laughing about this forever. A plastic deck will never be a true friend that will laugh with you.
Yes..what a great post..the much maligned cedar, really does hold up well. It does need more maintenance, of course, but you have the look of real wood, not plastic...ugh! The best wood of all may well be ...hemlock..rough cut..indestructible! When you sand it, a lot of red comes out..As for me, I'm replacing pressure treated on my daughter's deck w ..mahogany..about the same price as composite., yes, maintenance required. But it's oh, so beautiful!
I've built powerlines for over 30 years an worked with Cedar Southern yellow pine an mahogany. You're saying untreated last longer because of the wicking of moisture. I live on the river in Southern Ohio and we do have cold winters Thank you for your advice
I built one with Trex and it is maintenance free. My rampaging dog can't scratch it and the crazy amount of rain we've been getting does zero harm. I love Trex.
What I have ran into here in the pacific north west, is mold with the composit decks. I've done one warranty replacement from a manufacturer due to mold and the new boards molded as well. (Deck constructed >24" off ground with airflow and a moisture barrior on the soil). I've seen them pressure washed and it just pushes the mold deeper into the product which shows up as black stains months later. Maybe some of the new products are better but I personally prefer wood despite some of the considerations with it.
With all this testing you're doing I sure hope we get a ZIP test. Maybe a normal install with nails exposed vs. Doug's sealant version vs. other systems (tyvek, delta, Carlisle, asphalt paper, etc.). Here's to hoping!
In hot weather composite(and any plastic) is uncomfortable since it retains heat more than wood does. Cedar and black locust are the best woods for decking, steps, and also for structure since they are resistant to termites.
I built a deck using Ipe and one thing to take into consideration is that all end cuts must be sealed with a wax to prevent the ends from checking! Two is that make sure you have plenty of drill bits as this wood dulls them extremely fast(about 15 holes and bit is done) and if using stainless steel screws like we did, every screw needs do be pre drilled or the screw will break! It is also hard on saw blades! Absolutely one of the most beautiful decks when it was done!
Very helpful. I scratched our Azek deck today and found your video. Love the thoroughness of your test. Thanks very much for the heat fix tip for Azek, I will certainly practice that.
Hi Matt. Azek does not warranty against damage from sunscreen or bug spray. I learned that the hard way why when my kids applied sunscreen on the desk and there foot outlines remained etched into the Azek until we moved. Thank goodness for outdoor rungs.
I see a lot of synthetic being used out in the Federal lands up in Washington. Saw a lot of new picnic tables made out of the stuff. They now have signs everywhere telling people not to put your grill on the tables, they are all warped and melted.
So...Who cried when he put those burgers down?? LOL!! Those things looked yummy!! Good review!! Thank you Matt! I figured the composite/synthetic decking would do better but was very surprised by the Sikkens performance. That's some good stuff!
Thanks Matt for educating all of us on deck stains. Now we're all gonna sample some burgers, out on the deck....so be a sport, bruh and pass the "catch up".
Great test, and very informative! We here in Western Canada would like to see another couple added. We get cold winters, minus 20 to 35 Celsius. A slip test would be in order. On the other side of the scale is plus 20 to 35 Celsius. Shrinkage and expansion, particularly at finished joints. I've witnessed some scary stuff in the engineered materials. Crazy slippery, and giant gaps in joinery.
I've installed lots of composite here in Winnipeg, most brands are extremely slippery when covered in snow, and can be terribly damaged from shovelling, can also be damaged from ice melt products. Most composites are darker colours, they get horribly hot in the summer. Also worth mentioning, using even a cheap garbage composite will effectively double the cost of the deck compared to pressure treated SPF... the decking itself will have a very long, very low maintenance lifespan, but the framing is the same as a normal deck so it'll still rot at the same speed, leaving you with decking that's "still good" on top of a crumbling structure...
I would be curious to see a heat index comparison on these same boards. How hot do they get when exposed to full sun on 90 degree day? Walk on with bare feet?
Great test, Matt. One big advantage of the CPVC Azek is the light weight of the product. Sometimes, deck framing needs to be structurally upgraded to accommodate the composite (wood/plastic) decking. Ever try to carry a pc. of 20 ft Trex or Tinbertech? Very heavy!
I think in the end it comes down to price. If the the synthetics are comparable to Ipe.....then it becomes a difficult decision. But if the Ipe is half the cost vs synthetics, I would choose the Ipe. The wood is incredibly dense and resilient in outdoor applications. They made the Coney Island boardwalk out of Ipe where it endured saltwater exposure and foot traffic from millions of visitors for over 50 years before needing replacement.
Stained Cedar looks the best, is the cheapest on here, and held up just as well as the others or better. If I had a beach house though I'd use the timbertec
I have a solid plastic and a plastic clad. (solid plastic, not mixed with anything, not hollow core) The clad looks better (initially) but the solid holds up better by a mile. No amount of scratching, gouging or cutting effects it because the material and color are identical throughout the deck board. You can put a screw right through it with no ill effects.
I've used IPE and love it. But on an 80' wraparound porch project I dug a little deeper on IPE and see that despite marketing claims, it is unsustainably harvested from Brazilian rainforests. Yep, the rain forest being burned down for cattle grazing, the one that's pushing over the edge with global warming - that's the one. Damn shame. So for my current project I'm using Fiberon Symmetry "Cimmaron" and loving the look so far. It looks like mahogany and is standing up so far.
Thanks for the Fiberon suggestion. I wasn't familiar with it. FSC certified Ipe is available but not readily. FSC certification is a good measure for whether a wood is sustainably harvested or not.
Wait, so the video was sponsored by Azek and also found that Azek was the best ?! What an amazing coincidence! C'mon Matt, you can do better than that.
He had good and bad to say about all and told you directly that Azek sponsored the video. There was no one clear winner if you paid attention but then you wouldn't have something to cry foul about.
I know this is late on this video, but kudo's to Azek. I'd rather buy a product from a company knowing both the good and the bad, then being lied to and have the bad hidden from me. If I was building a deck (and I will be in a few years), I'd consider your product over others, with the transparency being a major positive!
I am always surprised at how reluctant you sponsored bloggers are to talking about costs. And yes, I know that costs can be regional and they are not static but relative numbers increase the informative value of these videos.
I only saw one flaw, when you tape over a portion of a wood surface and left it in the sun. The exposed surface of the wood will tan, and the taped unexposed will not tan thus leaving a color differential.
Thanks for info but honestly there were SO many other parameters that would've been useful to see 'side by side': - resistance to denting/marring - expansion due to heat/ humidity - real world scratch test (maybe actually move around some furniture) - repair options for these various problems *and also, since the one composite had a lamination, is it more prone to swelling or staining when ripped ... sorry to nit pick, just adding some worthy considerations. Maybe some ppl w knowledge can drop that below?
Key takeaway 9:44 is perhaps also don't spray it on your skin either and ultimately avoid midday sun and evening bugs? Unless you have alloy armor technology on your skin like the new decking products 10:08
I have owned multiple homes and.decks.I hate fake wood decks, those days are gone. I will never seal another deck again. My decks looks as beautiful today as the day it was built. Never thought I would convert but cleaning and sealing is not only a lot of work but expensive.
Matt, Would love to see you do a temperature test on the same products. How much sun do they take in and what’s the surface temperature. I live in the Midwest and advise customers from composite products with heavy southern exposure. Thank you for the video
there was a guy from boston I think that did some independent testing on all the major brands and colors. some of those decks can get pretty hot upwards of 135. think the composites faired far better than the pvc decks
I was imagining trying to stop the next house buyer from using sunscreen products out on his or her deck to avoid damage. I think it is pretty much going to happen regardless, which means it is the decking, not the consumer, that is going to have to find a way to deal with it one way or another. Obviously we aren't there yet, except maybe with higher maintenance cedar.
Matt, that end grain or ripped edge of the azek with cell pockets will turn solid black if not totally sealed. I prefer boral for ext trim. Love your vids I recommend them to most folks who complain I over engineer or water perm. Thanks for helping. Cheers
1st: another GREAT vid / lesson Matt!! ...I've always wondered why some people look forward to their wood ' graying out' as they call it. Why ? To me ..grey weather worn wood looks terrible. I've always protected mine with a good clear coat of some sort. No greying allowed 😅 Also.. I see a lot of people that buy beautifully grained & knotted wood.. Then.. They PAINT IT !! 😲 WHAAAAAT the ..
I built myself a timberframe house and my relatives wondered why I didn't box around the timbers with stick frame and drywall. 😒 There's just no accounting for some people. That said, I do love the look of a greyed out wood in some cases - board and batten, cedar shakes, etc. But not on a deck.
@@jamesrempel8522 agreed. I like grey on some interior and exterior properly designed settings however I do not like the greyed out / old faded on deck or fence because I feel it makes it look old and time to redo
i still think i wili install IPE you can refinish it yearly at a low cost to bring it back to new meaning it will look great every summer if you do it in the spring.
@@jamesrempel8522 no different than every few years spending thousands to replace other products. this would only require a quick wash and then stain. get a couple neighbour kids to do it with a roller to stain and power washer to clean before staining
If choosing composite boards for a wraparound porch in the South (NC) would you recommend tongue and groove or edge grooved/spaced boards? Our porch does get wet with a hard rain and I'm concerned about drainage, though I think tongue and groove would look nicer.
Matt, I love your content. I have a question. Where is your TREX board? Azek and Timbertech are owned by the same company. Seems biased, especially when funded by Azek.
I looked at many choices for redoing our vinyl fabric rolls. Looked at multipe composite decks and roll on urethane. Cedar is a lot cheaper than composite even the cheap stuff. Solid stain on top you can make it look new every year. Lucky to live in BC where cedar is cheap.
Pro tip #1: Most organic (i.e.: food) stains will significantly decrease in the direct sunlight over time (UV rays destroys most stain-causing compounds)Pro tip #2: If your deck has some spots of sunscreen and or bug spray, why not spray it all over the deck to make it look even?
Whilst I long ago totally gave up on real and faux timber decks for excessive maintenance reasons the worst staining problems I ever encountered were from leaves. Interesting to test some of these.
I was pleasantly surprised that Azek didn't censor your comments, being the sponsor of the video. But, if there was a perfect decking material, everyone would use it.
I can tell you from lots of experience the textured Azec can hold dirt mustard ect. in its texture, but I have always been able to remove it with light pressure spraying makes it brand new.
I have FiberOn. It was installed about 15 years ago. I was pleased with it for a long time, but time has definitely in the last few years made the top layer look like crap. It seems to peel back in spots. How are the newer products holding up over time?
So I took samples and did the same test. To get the mustard out I used a natural disinfectant with 2.5% Hydrogen peroxide and left it on for about 3 minutes and used one of those steel kitchen dish pan scrub. It came right out.
Fifteen or twenty years ago, I badly burned the bottoms of my feet walking barefoot on a composite deck that had been in the summer sun for several hours. I’d experienced hot wood decks before, but never to the point of getting a burn. How do modern composite materials compare to wood?
It cracks me up how all these synthetic decking products are being installed with stainless fasteners to modern Quickrot Treated Pine. You can dunk it in copper napthenate, char it, red guard it, paint it then apply peel n stick to it. But when the water leeches in through your stainless steel structural screw’s path it’s gonna self destruct. Just do some sister repairs til it collapses.
I would have liked to see you put a lit charcoal briquette on these. I already know the result but others should know that only the IPE would hold up, and the composites burn fast easy and put off toxic fumes!!! Cedar just burns fast!
What about a very hot sunny day, and a very cold, ice cold one (winter in Canada)? The PVC gets very hot in summer, and very slippery in winter. Also, you can sand wood.
@@kevinkev500 No ground floor decks here to worry about but products durable enough for a deck and pleasing to look at would be useful as fencing material around inner-city condo buildings like ours.
Next scratch test drive screw through a board at an angle and place a weight on the board then drag it across the surfaces one way across all boards then back. Keep the videos coming they're very good.
Greys out really nicely. I hate that it greys out. I have ipe and do everything I can to stop it from turning grey. Amazingly beautiful wood until it turns grey.
The test that seems to be rarely included in deck testing is temperature. We chose wood because the plastic, composite (& metal) get uncomfortably hot in the sun.
While being a builder in SW Florida, I've worked with all of these materials except cedar on decks. Cedar in SW Florida is not usually an option when building decks that will last. While stain tests are nice, unfortunately the weather here can dictate which materials you use greatly. My experiences: Azak is my favorite overall, just ahead of Ipa. It will virtually last forever, expansion and contraction in the summer heat is minimal, and when face screwd, will hold up very well in Hurricanes. My only issue with Azak is that it does dent easier compared to Ipa. Now my dislikes with the hybrid style material: Recommends spacing the butt joints 1/4 inch for expansion with temperature. I personally think decks look better without gappings, but that's my opinion. Those gaps will grow and retract throughout the day, which could also make 45° joints appear mismatched if you have boarder pieces . Also if your OCD, those 1/4 inch gaps on the butting joints ( mainly on bigger decks that require more than 1 length of board, usually 20ft ) often are not consistent spacings when finished. Most of the time dependiding on what time of day you installed that particular board, some joints could differ from 1/8 to 3/8ths spacings by the next day. Azak does not require spacing butt joints. The other thing to keep in mind when building here in SW florida are hurricanes. One sided tie down boards like the trex system hidden screws are weaker to high winds during storms. Also if you need to replace an individual board you need to undo the boards leading up to it to reach the screws located on the one side. So what we do is always face screw 2 screws on 12inch centers 1" 3/16ths and 4" 3/8ths spacings ( with 5 and 9/16 average board widths ), which tested well during Erma and Charly and make an incredibly stiff deck. Ipa is just some premo material that is a great look if you want to keep it natural looking. It will decay over time, and is expensive to replace when needed. But, like the host said, its virtually indestructible when sealed. Those are just my experiences working in Florida, and I know that that much attention to stability isn't necessary in other climates. But that's my 2 cents in dealing with these decking materials. Hope this helps someone :)
You still doing work in south florida?
I'm a little confused by this, as I have read that ipe lasts 50 years, while composite will last 25-30 years. While ipe seems to be more expensive than standard Trex, other brazilian hardwoods with comparable hardness run a similar price per SF.
Great info. On the other extreme of the scale, you should see what an upstate NY winter does to these materials.
How about fence? Which material is better? I’m gonna put a new fence and I’m thinking between Ipe and composite. Any idea?
@@victorvek5227 That is what am seeking info on... how do you think it fares in MI snow?
I’ve got 10 years on my Timber Tech deck in the rainy Seattle area...looks like new with no discoloration or scratches.
I have to agree with several of the comments, Price per Foot for each of the boards would be very helpful, Fade Resistance over time outside and "bare foot walkability" around 2 pm on a hot, sunny day! Those are the things most of us would want to know before using them for a deck.
I used Ready Seal Natural Cedar when I built my deck last week and I have a couple of spare boards and tested the red wine. I left it for two hours and it did not penentrate through the Ready Seal and wiped right off. I think the sealer makes a massive difference. This was an interesting caparison. Thank you for sharing.
We put a mcdouble on the deck and found out the preservative seeped into the wood, and 30 years later it still looked perfect, the rest of the deck was rotted away except for a 4 inch circle where the burger had been interesting.
Which is why I have created the all new Mcdecking.
There is no "preservative". It's the oils in the meat that soaked in. That shit never comes out. Try getting an oil stain out of clothes.
😂
🤣
Can I got 600 square feet of mcdecking please.
Try laying a Twinkie next to it and see who wins. They block gamma rays, neutrinos, and spooky action at a distance. Truly tasty and remarkable.
a 5 second hot charcoal briquette test would be good
ha good point
Wouldn’t have charcoal on a deck unless your not smart
Yes very good test
We exclusively use moisture shield when we do composite, it's not capped, solid colour all the way through. We fix scratches from install with a lighter, works great
The little blow torch cigarette lighters do a great job too. Though you have to move the flame constantly.
I love that your videos are family friendly. Besides yours and Jordan's, there aren't many. Thanks Matt.
Finally... A company willing to even show a little bit of downside (honesty) in there product. This is refreshing and I'm glad you pointed it out and gave them credit for doing this. Makes me want to put them at the top of the list when considering deck products.
Agreed
Inject
Which one
We agreed bayat
@@gobstopper9t690 I'm guessing "SPONSORED BY AZEK"
After 2 failed composite decks in Massachusetts I wanted ipe. After researching the cost and the upkeep I was talked into Azek. It has been down for YEARS with zero maintenance. Space every joist 12 inches or less or it is bouncy. I prefer the side grip attachment on slotted PVC... no holes... no water penetration.
composite decks with the hidden fastener systems look so good and so clean!
You can get ipe with the hidden fasteners also.
I've walked on composite boards and notice how they bend a little under your feet. No issue with Ipe, extremely hard and durable in my opinion, and looks SOOOO much better.
Matt, you are a National Treasure. You really are. I’m a 72 year old (mostly retired) home builder. Your wide scan of topic matter and intelligent approach to them are awesome.
Would have been nice to see wood alternatives from some larger companies that more of us could buy from
where is hot grease from grill after a scratch from grill?
These materials are getting better. Sure beats pressure treated lumber!
I am a woman and i know that bug spray/repellent always screws up my polished toenails and fingernails in the summer. It is almost like a stripper or a remover, destroys the smoothness and gloss! So it doesn’t surprise me that it messed with the finish on your deck boards. I actually thought it would do more damage than it actually did. Great test! I enjoy all of your videos, esp. these types. Keep up the good work and interesting content! Thanks Matt.
BTW a totally unbiased review. At first I was very nervous it would be about how great Azek was, and it looks pretty great, but the disadvantages it has weren't glossed over. Very commendable!
I sure wouldn’t want a trace of a wine or mustard stain on our decks to clash with the mold and bird droppings.
😂😂😂😂
You really helped start my day on the right foot!
I have used untreated (Key:Untreated) clear cedar planks for four houses: two lake houses and two primary houses. If someone is evaluating a material for a new deck, you nailed it. Cedar has undeniable flaws. I have found that evaluating cedar in its infancy, as a freshly cut plant, misses the point: the most important qualities can only be seen and experienced over time. With only half a tongue in cheek, I say this: It has soul, it has wisdom, it can only be understood after you live with it and you become friends. While none of my friends have formally proposed to my cedar dock at the lake (26 ft x 19 ft protruding into beautiful water), many confess in heartfelt terms that they "really love it, a lot". Scary? You bet.
Allow me to advocate on behalf of the often-maligned untreated cedar plank, for it is my favorite building material, albeit one that is often troubled and mistreated in its per-pubescent "fresh from the mill" years.
Two opening premises:
1) if a flawless "indoor" or "fresh off the lot" look is what you want, don't bother with cedar - you’ll probably hate it;
2) evaluating new cedar decking is wrong-minded, much like evaluating a 15 yeaar old as an advisor to CEOs would be. Time is a friend to cedar decking.
I have some brief metaphysical comments later, but let's start with fact based observations about (untreated) cedar planking from the last 40 years.
a) you can't beat its "foot feel",
b) despite misguided builder lore, it holds up remarkably well even on stairs - foot traffic rounds out the exposed edges and good cedar won't splinter (if you drag heavy solid objects up the stairs, not so much),
c) cedar turns grey over time which, besides being beautiful, is the first step in how it ages well,
d) PATINA is the unexpected x factor in cedar decks (think of a much loved 10 year old leather object you use a lot). Why? Early spills WILL horrify you. But, like your leather object, eventually the imperfections from use start to make things, ironically, better. You stop crying, start liking, and eventually love. Yes, unlike your formal dining room table and rug, every spill, scratch, ring from a wine glass, dropped hamburger, and horrifying stain eventually blends together and - together with sun's natural bleaching power - its look is cohesive. AND, largely self correcting. UV, Time, elements and blending of flaws make most stains go away. You STOP WORRYING about its lack of perfection and fall in love with how it converts a deck's mishaps into a "what, me worry" timeline of life where only dropped paint cans and ignoring algae growth in wet dark corners (easily scrubbed out) can wreck a good cedar deck
e) occasional power washings and hand scrubbing with one of many cleaning agents (detergent with a hint of bleach for example) corrects virtually all assaults from ketchup, mustard, wine, oils, etc as long as you leave behind aspirations of unblemished perfection,
f) cedar has personality and, for me, becomes a good friend which ages like you: beaten up by life, but never down and out, wearing some scars which make you smile and wink and even empathize with it because it progresses through it's life like many of us. A story of ups and downs but resilient and always better for having spent a day outdoors in the sun,
g) sounds odd but this is KEY: if you live in a climate which is freezing and or wet for part of the year, it makes your life safer unless you stain or seal it. On untreated, quality cedar, water dissipates and quickly wicks down its grain. Drops of water do not freeze into hip breaking hemispheres of danger. By dissipating moisture, it dries remarkably quickly. When wet, it is not slippery (unless you let algae build up in which case it can get dangerously slippery).
Cedar has your back. It becomes your friend. It is a good travel companion for life. Getting beaten up by life, bombarded by the sun, transitioning from cold to hot, wet to dry, going from freshly scrubbed to facing assaults of dropped burgers, kids' dirty feet, grandma's dropped coffee or wine or beer - cedar deals with that and the bruises heal. Miraculously, it always reverts to some version of a perfectly imperfect silver grey. It goes through life like we do: handling the ups and downs, body blows, unexpected mishaps, the good times and the bad times. But it picks itself up off the ground, sets its gaze towards better, prettier days in the future and moves forward without complaining. Over time you become good friends. You develop a shared history. You laugh at the fading stain from where your neighbor dropped the entire plate of ribs thinking you would hate him forever. It reminds you that a scratch or a stain ain't the end of the world and that wounds heal. Like a kitchen, it's cozy. It's where people want to be. Cedar hates the idea of a perfect life and understands the futility of aspiring to perfection and being young forever.
Cedar gets it.
Untreated cedar decks handle adversity better than 95% of the people I know and because of it's self healing resilience. Cedar decks, like good friends are are like best friends who have your back and make it easier to walk though life with your head held high, an appreciation for the simple pleasure of bare feet on kind wood, awareness of how time, love, and loyalty can heal. Every time I stand on one of my cedar decks, breezeways, or stairs I am content, at peace, in balance and fulfilled. Usually I have a smile on my face - c'mon man, you dropped the entire platter of ribs... and it landed face down. No worries neighbor. It'll look just fine real soon, it'll be gone soon after and we'll be laughing about this forever.
A plastic deck will never be a true friend that will laugh with you.
What a post!! I don’t want to try IPE, and hate treated, but after this post I may try cedar.
Yes..what a great post..the much maligned cedar, really does hold up well. It does need more maintenance, of course, but you have the look of real wood, not plastic...ugh! The best wood of all may well be ...hemlock..rough cut..indestructible! When you sand it, a lot of red comes out..As for me, I'm replacing pressure treated on my daughter's deck w ..mahogany..about the same price as composite., yes, maintenance required. But it's oh, so beautiful!
I've built powerlines for over 30 years an worked with Cedar Southern yellow pine an mahogany. You're saying untreated last longer because of the wicking of moisture. I live on the river in Southern Ohio and we do have cold winters Thank you for your advice
I built one with Trex and it is maintenance free. My rampaging dog can't scratch it and the crazy amount of rain we've been getting does zero harm. I love Trex.
This video came just in time for my fence and deck project.
What I have ran into here in the pacific north west, is mold with the composit decks. I've done one warranty replacement from a manufacturer due to mold and the new boards molded as well. (Deck constructed >24" off ground with airflow and a moisture barrior on the soil). I've seen them pressure washed and it just pushes the mold deeper into the product which shows up as black stains months later. Maybe some of the new products are better but I personally prefer wood despite some of the considerations with it.
Azek, the sponsor of this video, owns TimberTech as well.
With all this testing you're doing I sure hope we get a ZIP test. Maybe a normal install with nails exposed vs. Doug's sealant version vs. other systems (tyvek, delta, Carlisle, asphalt paper, etc.). Here's to hoping!
In hot weather composite(and any plastic) is uncomfortable since it retains heat more than wood does. Cedar and black locust are the best woods for decking, steps, and also for structure since they are resistant to termites.
I built a deck using Ipe and one thing to take into consideration is that all end cuts must be sealed with a wax to prevent the ends from checking! Two is that make sure you have plenty of drill bits as this wood dulls them extremely fast(about 15 holes and bit is done) and if using stainless steel screws like we did, every screw needs do be pre drilled or the screw will break! It is also hard on saw blades! Absolutely one of the most beautiful decks when it was done!
Very helpful. I scratched our Azek deck today and found your video. Love the thoroughness of your test. Thanks very much for the heat fix tip for Azek, I will certainly practice that.
Hi Matt. Azek does not warranty against damage from sunscreen or bug spray. I learned that the hard way why when my kids applied sunscreen on the desk and there foot outlines remained etched into the Azek until we moved. Thank goodness for outdoor rungs.
I see a lot of synthetic being used out in the Federal lands up in Washington. Saw a lot of new picnic tables made out of the stuff. They now have signs everywhere telling people not to put your grill on the tables, they are all warped and melted.
Jake A. Yup same here in Scotland but with a raised metal plate to sit it on 👍🏻
And those same grills burn the finishes and char our wood tables too in BC
who doesnt have enough common sense too know fire and heat causes major damage on most surfaces!!
A friend of mine who owns A vineyard has an out door all wood table that was stained with Pino. It's pretty beautiful
Did you mean "Pinot"?
i’d go with malbec
That was wicked kool. That red wine would make a good looking stain on certain types of wood
It does look cool but I think the UV will burn it out eventually and just leave an off color grey.
So...Who cried when he put those burgers down?? LOL!! Those things looked yummy!!
Good review!! Thank you Matt! I figured the composite/synthetic decking would do better but was very surprised by the Sikkens performance. That's some good stuff!
Thanks Matt for educating all of us on deck stains. Now we're all gonna sample some burgers, out on the deck....so be a sport, bruh and pass the "catch up".
Great test, and very informative! We here in Western Canada would like to see another couple added. We get cold winters, minus 20 to 35 Celsius. A slip test would be in order. On the other side of the scale is plus 20 to 35 Celsius. Shrinkage and expansion, particularly at finished joints. I've witnessed some scary stuff in the engineered materials. Crazy slippery, and giant gaps in joinery.
I've installed lots of composite here in Winnipeg, most brands are extremely slippery when covered in snow, and can be terribly damaged from shovelling, can also be damaged from ice melt products. Most composites are darker colours, they get horribly hot in the summer. Also worth mentioning, using even a cheap garbage composite will effectively double the cost of the deck compared to pressure treated SPF... the decking itself will have a very long, very low maintenance lifespan, but the framing is the same as a normal deck so it'll still rot at the same speed, leaving you with decking that's "still good" on top of a crumbling structure...
Azek sponsoring a video that shows some negatives is damn brave. I'd be swayed to them just for that honesty.
Bow I’m hungry! Thanks for showing these tests Matt 👍🏼
I would be curious to see a heat index comparison on these same boards. How hot do they get when exposed to full sun on 90 degree day? Walk on with bare feet?
Cedar plank remains cool while the other denser boards will get painfully hot.
Great test, Matt. One big advantage of the CPVC Azek is the light weight of the product. Sometimes, deck framing needs to be structurally upgraded to accommodate the composite (wood/plastic) decking. Ever try to carry a pc. of 20 ft Trex or Tinbertech? Very heavy!
Bigger questions to worry about, what board will get so hot in the summer that it burns your feet? Also, what boards rot quicker?
I think in the end it comes down to price. If the the synthetics are comparable to Ipe.....then it becomes a difficult decision. But if the Ipe is half the cost vs synthetics, I would choose the Ipe. The wood is incredibly dense and resilient in outdoor applications. They made the Coney Island boardwalk out of Ipe where it endured saltwater exposure and foot traffic from millions of visitors for over 50 years before needing replacement.
Stained Cedar looks the best, is the cheapest on here, and held up just as well as the others or better. If I had a beach house though I'd use the timbertec
Thank you for this test. I have a cedar deck with the sikkens stain. Happy to see that it did so well.
I have a solid plastic and a plastic clad. (solid plastic, not mixed with anything, not hollow core) The clad looks better (initially) but the solid holds up better by a mile. No amount of scratching, gouging or cutting effects it because the material and color are identical throughout the deck board. You can put a screw right through it with no ill effects.
Great tip on those scatches.
I've used IPE and love it. But on an 80' wraparound porch project I dug a little deeper on IPE and see that despite marketing claims, it is unsustainably harvested from Brazilian rainforests. Yep, the rain forest being burned down for cattle grazing, the one that's pushing over the edge with global warming - that's the one. Damn shame. So for my current project I'm using Fiberon Symmetry "Cimmaron" and loving the look so far. It looks like mahogany and is standing up so far.
Thanks for the Fiberon suggestion. I wasn't familiar with it. FSC certified Ipe is available but not readily. FSC certification is a good measure for whether a wood is sustainably harvested or not.
Wait, so the video was sponsored by Azek and also found that Azek was the best ?! What an amazing coincidence! C'mon Matt, you can do better than that.
Check LUMBEROCK the material is the best that’s what I use to my desk and LUMBERROCK have a video for installation
He had good and bad to say about all and told you directly that Azek sponsored the video. There was no one clear winner if you paid attention but then you wouldn't have something to cry foul about.
Did it find that azek was the best ? To me it seemed like the timbertech was the best.
Plastic deck 🤮 I don’t care how long it lasts.
It seemed more like there was no winner. None of them had a significant leg up over the other in all tests.
Matt will not be able to reply to these comments. He finished that bottle of "the good wine" and sleeping it off right now.
lol
I know this is late on this video, but kudo's to Azek. I'd rather buy a product from a company knowing both the good and the bad, then being lied to and have the bad hidden from me. If I was building a deck (and I will be in a few years), I'd consider your product over others, with the transparency being a major positive!
Great test comparison and that's one hell of a clear span building !
I am always surprised at how reluctant you sponsored bloggers are to talking about costs. And yes, I know that costs can be regional and they are not static but relative numbers increase the informative value of these videos.
Azek does not want to scare you away with 3-4x the cost of cedar.
At 5:20 how did you train a fly to play that part? So realistic. Amazing!
I only saw one flaw, when you tape over a portion of a wood surface and left it in the sun. The exposed surface of the wood will tan, and the taped unexposed will not tan thus leaving a color differential.
Honestly with a coat of oil that red wine as a stain might look pretty cool.
Thanks for info but honestly there were SO many other parameters that would've been useful to see 'side by side':
- resistance to denting/marring
- expansion due to heat/ humidity
- real world scratch test (maybe actually move around some furniture)
- repair options for these various problems
*and also, since the one composite had a lamination, is it more prone to swelling or staining when ripped
... sorry to nit pick, just adding some worthy considerations.
Maybe some ppl w knowledge can drop that below?
And how about grilling? We do LOTS of grilling and inevitably a hot coal will fall on the deck.
Key takeaway 9:44 is perhaps also don't spray it on your skin either and ultimately avoid midday sun and evening bugs? Unless you have alloy armor technology on your skin like the new decking products 10:08
I have owned multiple homes and.decks.I hate fake wood decks, those days are gone. I will never seal another deck again. My decks looks as beautiful today as the day it was built. Never thought I would convert but cleaning and sealing is not only a lot of work but expensive.
MAN those burgers look GOOOOD.
Thanks Matt! Happy Thanksgiving!
Matt,
Would love to see you do a temperature test on the same products.
How much sun do they take in and what’s the surface temperature.
I live in the Midwest and advise customers from composite products with heavy southern exposure.
Thank you for the video
there was a guy from boston I think that did some independent testing on all the major brands and colors. some of those decks can get pretty hot upwards of 135. think the composites faired far better than the pvc decks
Spraying bug spray and/or sun screen can also cause turf damage as well. Go stand in your neighbors yard before you spray.
I was imagining trying to stop the next house buyer from using sunscreen products out on his or her deck to avoid damage. I think it is pretty much going to happen regardless, which means it is the decking, not the consumer, that is going to have to find a way to deal with it one way or another. Obviously we aren't there yet, except maybe with higher maintenance cedar.
How about not putting either on your skin? If they damage the caps or the finishes, can you only imagine what they do to your body?
I'm gonna need the name of the burger joint those came from.
Jack in the Box. Fast food chain. Those are their ribeye burgers.
That makes two of us
mcdonalds
Those burgers looked pretty good. I'd probably still eat one if it fell patty-down onto the deck.
The 5 second rule.
Jack in the Box ribeye burger.
How dirty could they be? They're brand new!
:)
@@kevinhenry7273 I always thought it was the five minutes rule...
American foodies will never forgive him for waisting so many burgers
Thank you for this video. Timber tech is the best
Matt, that end grain or ripped edge of the azek with cell pockets will turn solid black if not totally sealed. I prefer boral for ext trim. Love your vids I recommend them to most folks who complain I over engineer or water perm. Thanks for helping. Cheers
I like to do poured concrete over A drainage mat and EPDM. Finish the concrete according to budget. You get the benefit of
a dry underside too.
Definitely recommend the Timber Tech...
1st: another GREAT vid / lesson Matt!! ...I've always wondered why some people look forward to their wood ' graying out' as they call it. Why ? To me ..grey weather worn wood looks terrible. I've always protected mine with a good clear coat of some sort. No greying allowed 😅 Also.. I see a lot of people that buy beautifully grained & knotted wood.. Then.. They PAINT IT !! 😲 WHAAAAAT the ..
I built myself a timberframe house and my relatives wondered why I didn't box around the timbers with stick frame and drywall. 😒 There's just no accounting for some people. That said, I do love the look of a greyed out wood in some cases - board and batten, cedar shakes, etc. But not on a deck.
@@jamesrempel8522 agreed. I like grey on some interior and exterior properly designed settings however I do not like the greyed out / old faded on deck or fence because I feel it makes it look old and time to redo
Agree and IPE will need to be done yearly at minimum to keep the pretty color.
I feel sorry for those hamburgers. They did nothing to deserve this.
LOL hilarious I thought same thing.
2hr rule!
They looked delicious
Great job Matt! Thank you!
i still think i wili install IPE you can refinish it yearly at a low cost to bring it back to new meaning it will look great every summer if you do it in the spring.
It is a fantastic choice indeed.
Sounds like a lot of work.
@@jamesrempel8522 no different than every few years spending thousands to replace other products. this would only require a quick wash and then stain. get a couple neighbour kids to do it with a roller to stain and power washer to clean before staining
IPE is also extremely expensive, I don't think the average future homeowner can afford it.
@@christopherpuylara6355 it is but it is a investment so youdont have to replace so soon in the long run making it cheaper
How do I know which wood I have? My deck wood is really curling up!!!!
If choosing composite boards for a wraparound porch in the South (NC) would you recommend tongue and groove or edge grooved/spaced boards? Our porch does get wet with a hard rain and I'm concerned about drainage, though I think tongue and groove would look nicer.
Matt, I love your content. I have a question. Where is your TREX board? Azek and Timbertech are owned by the same company. Seems biased, especially when funded by Azek.
I looked at many choices for redoing our vinyl fabric rolls. Looked at multipe composite decks and roll on urethane. Cedar is a lot cheaper than composite even the cheap stuff. Solid stain on top you can make it look new every year. Lucky to live in BC where cedar is cheap.
Pro tip #1: Most organic (i.e.: food) stains will significantly decrease in the direct sunlight over time (UV rays destroys most stain-causing compounds)Pro tip #2: If your deck has some spots of sunscreen and or bug spray, why not spray it all over the deck to make it look even?
Whilst I long ago totally gave up on real and faux timber decks for excessive maintenance reasons the worst staining problems I ever encountered were from leaves. Interesting to test some of these.
As always... Excellent helpful information
I was pleasantly surprised that Azek didn't censor your comments, being the sponsor of the video. But, if there was a perfect decking material, everyone would use it.
Great video you should do one on hidden fastener systems
Yes please.
I can tell you from lots of experience the textured Azec can hold dirt mustard ect. in its texture, but I have always been able to remove it with light pressure spraying makes it brand new.
I Hadn't Watch The Video Yet But I Gave It A Like Anyways Because I knew I Was Gonna Sit Through The Whole Thing & Guess What?.....I Did!
That’s fantastic! Love it
What about one foot + of snow on the deck in the winter for two weeks when the snow freezes and can't be removed from a large deck?
I have FiberOn. It was installed about 15 years ago.
I was pleased with it for a long time, but time has definitely in the last few years made the top layer look like crap. It seems to peel back in spots.
How are the newer products holding up over time?
When I did my deck 10 years ago, cedar was like 90 cents per foot. Today it is closer to $4. PVC / composite decking is now cheaper.
For the stain test, you need to use a good bold Aussie Shiraz, it can leave a lasting impression in many ways
So I took samples and did the same test. To get the mustard out I used a natural disinfectant with 2.5% Hydrogen peroxide and left it on for about 3 minutes and used one of those steel kitchen dish pan scrub. It came right out.
Cedar is a softwood, but if scratched it can be sanded and refinished, you can't do that to those composites.
Fifteen or twenty years ago, I badly burned the bottoms of my feet walking barefoot on a composite deck that had been in the summer sun for several hours. I’d experienced hot wood decks before, but never to the point of getting a burn. How do modern composite materials compare to wood?
It cracks me up how all these synthetic decking products are being installed with stainless fasteners to modern Quickrot Treated Pine. You can dunk it in copper napthenate, char it, red guard it, paint it then apply peel n stick to it. But when the water leeches in through your stainless steel structural screw’s path it’s gonna self destruct. Just do some sister repairs til it collapses.
5:00 that's perfect dude.
Right?! Lol
Can you fix timbertech scratches with heat too?
I would have liked to see you put a lit charcoal briquette on these. I already know the result but others should know that only the IPE would hold up, and the composites burn fast easy and put off toxic fumes!!! Cedar just burns fast!
What about a very hot sunny day, and a very cold, ice cold one (winter in Canada)? The PVC gets very hot in summer, and very slippery in winter. Also, you can sand wood.
It would be interesting to see how they perform against graffiti removal products and other cleaning products like de-moss solution and bleach.
If you have people (kids) tagging your deck you have larger concerns.
@@kevinkev500 No ground floor decks here to worry about but products durable enough for a deck and pleasing to look at would be useful as fencing material around inner-city condo buildings like ours.
Next scratch test drive screw through a board at an angle and place a weight on the board then drag it across the surfaces one way across all boards then back. Keep the videos coming they're very good.
Glad to see you used Heinz.
One coat of Sikkens on the Cedar? Sikkens, as per label instructions, requires two coats of preservative for proper application.
He said Sikkens but it’s a PPG can.
Greys out really nicely. I hate that it greys out. I have ipe and do everything I can to stop it from turning grey. Amazingly beautiful wood until it turns grey.