It reminds me of this old, cheap, chinese electronic games, where they telly you that you can play thousands of games, but in reality there are like six hundred tetris types, with different music or other small differences.
Tom Vasel is my favorite board game reviewer. I don't think that will ever change. This review is a perfect example of why. Very informative and entertaining. I love The Dice Tower.
This is my favorite game. Very niche, I know. It feels like 72 games in a series of Economic / Victory Point games. The 3rd section in the Book of Worlds is the variants. I believe "Meta" is the word I am looking for, it is really about the game itself than the gameplay. Plus, I got 3 people to pitch in as B-DAY presents.
Excellent, thoughtful, review of a difficult topic. Personally, if I had all the time in the world, I'd love to experiment with all the different combinations. But I don't, so I'll stick with games that I know already are going to be fun.
I've only gotten to play one game of 504 thus far, and thought it was pretty blech (I don't remember the #, but it wasn't 123). BUT, the most important thing I've realized is that this is a game for people who really like learning new games and reading rules. If you are like me, and much prefer gaming experiences where everyone already knows how to play the game on hand, this is NOT the game for you.
funny that you mention world 1-6-3 at the end of the review, Tom, as that is the exact combination that the folks at Game Night used for their runthrough. It looked like a pretty fun game, too - and the end scoring was pretty tight as well... which is a testament to the design of this package. Looking forward to it.
What a shame that most people will not get past the initial stage of "this is cool, but it has no theme - so I'm going to leave it at that". There are a number of games in there that clearly make my top 100 list - and a number that do not come close to any list for that matter, but look at your game shelf - what you see will not be 100-300 super great games, but a dozen that come to the table every week, and at least a dozen that will never see the light of day again... it's the same with this "game-collection". Nothing wrong with that in my book.
The negatives in this review had nothing to do with theme, did you even listen? The 504 modules Tom played were either bad, mediocre, or "fine." Why purchase anything but a great game? I don't understand why anyone was excited for 504
+VayaConMike as you may or may not have noticed, I wasn't reffering to the review explicitly, but already saw comments piling up that just reduced 504 to just being themeless. What is a great game then to you? Whatever the internet says?
I was never interested in 504 and wasn't influenced by any hype. I can usually spot a great game before I buy it because I know what I like and the rules are always made available before the game is out. If you like 504 that's great for you, you won't be the only one that likes it. I don't care about theme so that isn't what would keep me away from it.
+VayaConMike I also like to make sure I dont hop on the hype train, so basically same here. Seems like the only thing dividing us in this point is taste, really.
I instantly thought of the old nintendo "100 games in 1" cartridges when I heard of this game. I was never excited for it and I will happily continue playing great games like Five Tribes :)
im sure the paper money is just to save on cost/weight. Heres a solution: Fold your paper money like a hotdog and its much easier to grab. Nice review !
I like how dynamic the gameplay can be, but it seems to have a very lackluster art style. Probably to not clash with any of the modules, but it does not entice me to play at all. Hopefully one day I will get a chance to play it and make a more informed decision.
I think it would appeal to experimentalists who would like to play all the variants and rate them and share their ratings and see what games were rated high and trying them out.
Because surely to try before you buy you'd have to try a huge number of variations? It's too high a price point to decide after just one go on a random variant.
I barely understand how the book works, but I think I already know the answer to this question: are you not allowed to use the same modules for all 3 sections? Is that why its 504 and not 999?
Nice comments posted here so far. Good job with this video Tom. I just don't understand why this game even exists other than something the designer wanted to see if it can be pulled off. So kudos to the designer. But what's the point after the novelty? Where is the time to play this while there are so many classic games we like, so many new games to try, many games to come? Stick a game group on an island and there's only room for one game box I guess then 504 could work. Olgs and b&m stores I imagine won't sell too many of these. We'll pass on this. EDIT: After reading more reviews and comments this thought popped into my head: "504: the Garanimals of board games."
So basically the game is 504 games on paper, but actually if top module is the "game", middle is the how you make money, and bottom some extra bits, doesn't that actually make it 9 games? I mean normal games usually have some variants in them and we don't consider them different games. Many game expansions come with modules in them. Viticulture expansion for example added a whole lot of modules that you can mix and match, but it doesn't mean there are multiple games. I think this is some clever marketing from Friese, and the binder rule book is a nice idea, but I wouldn't call that there in reality is 504 games in it.
When I was reading the rules and what of the book of worlds is open, it felt like it was Variable Setup taken to it's illogical conclusion. I don't disagree that it's not innovative, and it feels like it'll be closer to 504 games than Dominion is to 25*24*23... games, but at the same time... Claiming it's 504 games feels like hyperbole to me, it looked like an engine that you swap in and out various modules into as if 'setup and victory condition' 'economy' and 'spice' were almost the equivalent of the Dominion kingdom cards in the design. How does it play with two, incidentally? Because from what I could see 2 of the modules (shares and majorities) had a very real possibility of decidedly not working with two. The 150 games in one box I tended to get was the c64/Atari/etc compilations.
I expected as much...I understand that it is 504 so that you can see it and go "Wow ! 504 games ?!!! No wayyyy !", but i was 99% sure it was going to be a mixed affair. Maybe if the 4 was missing and it was just 50 games, then maybe the game as a whole would be a lot better (by that i mean that all of the possible combinations would make up at least decent games)...
This is the game for people who don't like the T.I.M.E Stories distribution model. 504 meh games that you can play forever instead of one game that will blow your pants off, but is done after 4 hours.
+Draffut2003 When I pay 80$ for a board game, I don't want it to be meh and I don't want it to last 4 hours either. So I guess I hate both board games.
This game is quite disappointing. The setup part is innovative (and fiddly), but there isn't really any innovative things in the actual gameplay. Of course I haven't played all the games in the box, but I don't really want to spend time to play this game anymore.
I just loaded the video and upset that it's not 504 minutes long, 1 minute review per game. When is the 504 hour review coming where we see you play each game giving 1 hour per game?
As a boardgame collector this is must-have, it is an amazing achievement of design. But as a boardgame player this is kinda mediocre, there is nothing that stands out. I don't regret my buy, but I doubt this will see many plays among my boardgaming friends, maybe with my family, who enjoy these simpler Eurogames, but I can't see people requesting I bring this on boardgame night.
More of a conversation piece than something I actually want to play... And the themeing seems rather weak, more like 9 sub-themes that you glue together and are limited because none of them can contradict any of the others. In fact, if you had a game where only the themeing is mix and match, you could have Cthulu-Pirate-Vikings or Mafia-Zombie-Aliens, and probably have more fun with a mix-em-up that way,... Give me something with a more prominent theme any day...
Funny how you mentioned 1:6:3 at the end. That was the exact game GameNight! played ruclips.net/video/Ar76g-hwtRY/видео.html - coincidence? This game certainly has it's selected audience. It's not Pandemic, TI3, or any 18xx. Don't buy it for as a heavy euro/combat/economic game, but as several light-medium game. I'm sure you wont be disappointed. And if you do, choose a different game :)
If you have a board game group that meets up once a week and you manage to play a couple of games a time that's 104 games a year...meaning this will take nearly five years to play completely. I don't think I want to meet up to play variations of the same game for five years. Even if it changes the rules each time I'm looking at the same components for five years...soooooo boring. 😩
I don't like the idea of the game. With changeable modules, each of the component will be blend so that they are interchangeable, so the game experience will not be very satisfying.
Am I the only one that thought of this game to be rather stupid than innovative? I mean C'mon u have to play through 504 different game to actually find one that you like. Its more simple to watch 2-3 top10 gameboard review videos online and pick some u like than this waste of time...
I admire Friese for his bold decision to even design this, but this looks like total mediocrity to me. I was never enamored with the idea, since it was announced. I'd rather keep playing my great games than have something thst can give me a bunch of mediocre little experiences in one box.
Seems like people are in love with the idea of the game, more than the game itself.
This is the game you take to Antarctica for a two year mission with packing limitations
Antarctica is much more fun than this
Tom! Excellent Review! I love how you compare this game to the "150 Video Games" box that Grandma bought you! Really Excellent comparison!
-Chris
wonder if anyone has come close to playing all 504. bizzare crazy game for sure
It reminds me of this old, cheap, chinese electronic games, where they telly you that you can play thousands of games, but in reality there are like six hundred tetris types, with different music or other small differences.
+Wojciech Król hahaha, my parents bought me like 3 of those when I was a little kid. I only played one game.
Tom Vasel is my favorite board game reviewer. I don't think that will ever change. This review is a perfect example of why. Very informative and entertaining. I love The Dice Tower.
"Quantity has a quality all of its own."- Josef Stalin
This is my favorite game. Very niche, I know. It feels like 72 games in a series of Economic / Victory Point games. The 3rd section in the Book of Worlds is the variants. I believe "Meta" is the word I am looking for, it is really about the game itself than the gameplay. Plus, I got 3 people to pitch in as B-DAY presents.
still play it a lot?
Excellent, thoughtful, review of a difficult topic. Personally, if I had all the time in the world, I'd love to experiment with all the different combinations. But I don't, so I'll stick with games that I know already are going to be fun.
Really excellent review, Tom! You did a wonderful job of putting into words the conundrum that 504 poses to potential buyers! I'm impressed!
Good review on a hard to review game system.
504 Game not found
*start jumping the dinosaur
504 would be Gateway Timeout
I've only gotten to play one game of 504 thus far, and thought it was pretty blech (I don't remember the #, but it wasn't 123).
BUT, the most important thing I've realized is that this is a game for people who really like learning new games and reading rules. If you are like me, and much prefer gaming experiences where everyone already knows how to play the game on hand, this is NOT the game for you.
+Nick Sibicky So you're telling me that there are some people out there that like reading rules? Damn.
+PhilGerb93
I think there are a few. Maybe as many as about 7 or 8.
+PhilGerb93 I love reading the rules! However, 504 does not appeal to me.
+Nick Sibicky Yeah! loove reading the rules and learning new games! ^_^
funny that you mention world 1-6-3 at the end of the review, Tom, as that is the exact combination that the folks at Game Night used for their runthrough. It looked like a pretty fun game, too - and the end scoring was pretty tight as well... which is a testament to the design of this package. Looking forward to it.
what an interesting review, thanks for the extended thoughts Tom
Wow, this must have been an absolute nightmare to playtest
I doubt it was even tested, tbh.
What a shame that most people will not get past the initial stage of "this is cool, but it has no theme - so I'm going to leave it at that". There are a number of games in there that clearly make my top 100 list - and a number that do not come close to any list for that matter, but look at your game shelf - what you see will not be 100-300 super great games, but a dozen that come to the table every week, and at least a dozen that will never see the light of day again... it's the same with this "game-collection". Nothing wrong with that in my book.
Apparently there's a handful of passable games, but I would be surprised if there's anything resembling top 100 material in that box. Theme or not.
The negatives in this review had nothing to do with theme, did you even listen? The 504 modules Tom played were either bad, mediocre, or "fine." Why purchase anything but a great game? I don't understand why anyone was excited for 504
+VayaConMike as you may or may not have noticed, I wasn't reffering to the review explicitly, but already saw comments piling up that just reduced 504 to just being themeless. What is a great game then to you? Whatever the internet says?
I was never interested in 504 and wasn't influenced by any hype. I can usually spot a great game before I buy it because I know what I like and the rules are always made available before the game is out.
If you like 504 that's great for you, you won't be the only one that likes it. I don't care about theme so that isn't what would keep me away from it.
+VayaConMike I also like to make sure I dont hop on the hype train, so basically same here. Seems like the only thing dividing us in this point is taste, really.
excited to dig into this one. thanks for the rec!
I feel like they should have used hexes the same size as settlers so you can use the plastic settler board with it.
I instantly thought of the old nintendo "100 games in 1" cartridges when I heard of this game. I was never excited for it and I will happily continue playing great games like Five Tribes :)
This makes for a great component drop :)
What about the chance that it'll make a new genre of games? Will we see a shelf of 'module' games at our FLGS soon...
Can we expect a review of that piecepack book that was mentioned?
im sure the paper money is just to save on cost/weight.
Heres a solution: Fold your paper money like a hotdog and its much easier to grab.
Nice review !
Good analogy.
It sounds like an intriguing "game kit" for the tinkerer...in the same way that "Strategy 1" was for SPI. I might have to put this on my short list.
I like how dynamic the gameplay can be, but it seems to have a very lackluster art style. Probably to not clash with any of the modules, but it does not entice me to play at all. Hopefully one day I will get a chance to play it and make a more informed decision.
Are you going to do a video about top 10 games from 504?
I think it would appeal to experimentalists who would like to play all the variants and rate them and share their ratings and see what games were rated high and trying them out.
@Tom Why not just recommend it with a "try before you buy"?
Excellent review btw.
Because surely to try before you buy you'd have to try a huge number of variations? It's too high a price point to decide after just one go on a random variant.
maybe, but 1 game should give you a feel for how "deep" the games will be, and a sense on how the modules interact.
I barely understand how the book works, but I think I already know the answer to this question: are you not allowed to use the same modules for all 3 sections? Is that why its 504 and not 999?
9*9*9 isn't 999, it's 729. But yes, it seems you are not allowed to have the same module appear twice, so it's 9*8*7 instead
Ah yes, you're right. There is no "0" module, so of course you can't simply count your way from 001 to 999.
This is a really good review tom.
well done, Tom!
Excellent! Thanks.
Nice comments posted here so far. Good job with this video Tom. I just don't understand why this game even exists other than something the designer wanted to see if it can be pulled off. So kudos to the designer. But what's the point after the novelty? Where is the time to play this while there are so many classic games we like, so many new games to try, many games to come? Stick a game group on an island and there's only room for one game box I guess then 504 could work. Olgs and b&m stores I imagine won't sell too many of these. We'll pass on this.
EDIT: After reading more reviews and comments this thought popped into my head: "504: the Garanimals of board games."
So basically the game is 504 games on paper, but actually if top module is the "game", middle is the how you make money, and bottom some extra bits, doesn't that actually make it 9 games?
I mean normal games usually have some variants in them and we don't consider them different games. Many game expansions come with modules in them. Viticulture expansion for example added a whole lot of modules that you can mix and match, but it doesn't mean there are multiple games.
I think this is some clever marketing from Friese, and the binder rule book is a nice idea, but I wouldn't call that there in reality is 504 games in it.
When I was reading the rules and what of the book of worlds is open, it felt like it was Variable Setup taken to it's illogical conclusion. I don't disagree that it's not innovative, and it feels like it'll be closer to 504 games than Dominion is to 25*24*23... games, but at the same time... Claiming it's 504 games feels like hyperbole to me, it looked like an engine that you swap in and out various modules into as if 'setup and victory condition' 'economy' and 'spice' were almost the equivalent of the Dominion kingdom cards in the design.
How does it play with two, incidentally? Because from what I could see 2 of the modules (shares and majorities) had a very real possibility of decidedly not working with two.
The 150 games in one box I tended to get was the c64/Atari/etc compilations.
If you were trapped on a desert island with a few friends, would 504 be the best single game to have with you?
I expected as much...I understand that it is 504 so that you can see it and go "Wow ! 504 games ?!!! No wayyyy !", but i was 99% sure it was going to be a mixed affair. Maybe if the 4 was missing and it was just 50 games, then maybe the game as a whole would be a lot better (by that i mean that all of the possible combinations would make up at least decent games)...
This is the game for people who don't like the T.I.M.E Stories distribution model.
504 meh games that you can play forever instead of one game that will blow your pants off, but is done after 4 hours.
+Draffut2003 Oh come on! Don't you plan to buy all the new T.I.M.E episodes when they come out?!?! hahah. I don't have that kind of money.
Probably will actually...
+Draffut2003 When I pay 80$ for a board game, I don't want it to be meh and I don't want it to last 4 hours either. So I guess I hate both board games.
+PhilGerb93 lmao
This game is quite disappointing.
The setup part is innovative (and fiddly), but there isn't really any innovative things in the actual gameplay.
Of course I haven't played all the games in the box, but I don't really want to spend time to play this game anymore.
I just loaded the video and upset that it's not 504 minutes long, 1 minute review per game. When is the 504 hour review coming where we see you play each game giving 1 hour per game?
I am jealous of all your board games.
whew. glad i didn't ask that question at the last Q&A here I was thinking I was going to be original.
Given all the hate this game is getting, I may just have to get it. Have discovered many great games this way. Thanks guys. :)
It sounds to me like a book of chess variants: yes there are hundreds of them, but they tend towards sameness.
I think the best summary of the game is: 9 games with 495 variants.
I thought it was more like: 9 games (from the same game family) with nine expansions each, with each expansion having nine variants
Great game and great review
As a boardgame collector this is must-have, it is an amazing achievement of design. But as a boardgame player this is kinda mediocre, there is nothing that stands out. I don't regret my buy, but I doubt this will see many plays among my boardgaming friends, maybe with my family, who enjoy these simpler Eurogames, but I can't see people requesting I bring this on boardgame night.
More of a conversation piece than something I actually want to play... And the themeing seems rather weak, more like 9 sub-themes that you glue together and are limited because none of them can contradict any of the others. In fact, if you had a game where only the themeing is mix and match, you could have Cthulu-Pirate-Vikings or Mafia-Zombie-Aliens, and probably have more fun with a mix-em-up that way,... Give me something with a more prominent theme any day...
Kinda like a complicated kingdom builder....?
Trying all modules in all positions can be done in 9 plays.
123
234
345
456
567
678
789
891
912
Funny how you mentioned 1:6:3 at the end. That was the exact game GameNight! played ruclips.net/video/Ar76g-hwtRY/видео.html - coincidence?
This game certainly has it's selected audience. It's not Pandemic, TI3, or any 18xx. Don't buy it for as a heavy euro/combat/economic game, but as several light-medium game. I'm sure you wont be disappointed. And if you do, choose a different game :)
If you have a board game group that meets up once a week and you manage to play a couple of games a time that's 104 games a year...meaning this will take nearly five years to play completely.
I don't think I want to meet up to play variations of the same game for five years. Even if it changes the rules each time I'm looking at the same components for five years...soooooo boring. 😩
Great review, but Tom...that shirt >_
Imagine if some loony tried to make 504 Legacy.
I don't like the idea of the game. With changeable modules, each of the component will be blend so that they are interchangeable, so the game experience will not be very satisfying.
bad game/s, great review
a game for developers or other people interested in creating games - sadly this tries to be all things to all men and is doomed for failure
Am I the only one that thought of this game to be rather stupid than innovative? I mean C'mon u have to play through 504 different game to actually find one that you like. Its more simple to watch 2-3 top10 gameboard review videos online and pick some u like than this waste of time...
I admire Friese for his bold decision to even design this, but this looks like total mediocrity to me. I was never enamored with the idea, since it was announced. I'd rather keep playing my great games than have something thst can give me a bunch of mediocre little experiences in one box.
Quantity over quality. Just a fad and a novelty. Pass.
Paper money, pass.