I find it interesting when trans women say "I've always felt like a girl or woman". My question as a girl and woman is how do you know what it feels like to be a girl and a woman. How do you know how we feel? It's impossible for a boy or man to know what it feels like to be a girl or a woman. I could go over hundreds of life experiences as a girl or woman that no boy or man could ever have experienced. When trans people say they want to be a woman what they are saying is that they want to 'look' like an idealised view of a woman which is not actually the same as a being a woman.
I agree, telling the kids its ok that if they want to be a girl if there a boy or a boy if there girl because they wonder what it would be like opposite gender is wrong. They should be told that if they ask that no matter how hard you try you can never change the sex your born as and should be happy the way you are.
Can you know that though? Maybe there's such a thing as a sexed brain, and all us (cis people) whose bodies match our mental sex don't notice it for lack of dissonance. Imagine *your* mind was born into a male body - I think that's what trans women claim to experience.
This so spot on I screen shotted it! I am r studying up on this topic atm. All a “trans” person is doing is attempting to make themselves look like a bad woman. In ways of physical appearance, behaviour, attitudes and overall presentation. The bitter truth is a man will NEVER be a woman. You do not know what it “feels” like to be a woman. Yo will never know what it feels like to move through the world as a little girl…. The traumatising time or puberty. Seeing yourself put on weight; hips and thighs thicken, breasts grow and eventually bleeding for the first time. U will never know the feeling of being a teenage girl and being frightened u will get ur period in the wrong place. I will never forget I got my period for the second time ever right before a waterpolo game - and the panic that ensued
This didn't age well. How could anyone get comfortable using all of the new Pronouns, which new pronouns seem to get added every week. There is now around 300 Pronouns, and that is including all the Neo Pronouns as well. So if some kids are found on the streets playing, and want everyone around them to refer to them as a cat, can we take that child to an animal shelter and get it spade or neutered? You know be a responsible citizen, and keep the streets clean from any feral cats. 😊
It’s funny that as a doctor- you’ve decided to disregard decades of hard science data - in neurobiology, genetics and epigenetics- tossed every single biological and medical fact and data point- all of which clearly show that a) being trans is inborn or develops, in that brief prenatal window, that there is enduring lifelong structural as well as functional functional brain biology, none of which is per-se ‘a disorder’ so much as variation with normal range And as to the claim of ‘delusion’ - none of which has ANY correlation whatsoever with the areas, neurotransmitters nor any other process already well established to be implicated in delusional, hallucinatory, n schizophrenic nor schizosffective processes. …That you’ve chosen freely and in violation of your own professional ethics- to call these decades of hard science findings false or irrelevant- In service to upholding a theory that, on the data, could not possibly be at all accurate. It should disgust anyone talking to a professional scientist to have to say this but here’s how science goes: when your THEORY doesn’t match the DATA, you scrap your theory. You don’t simply hide the data and hope nobody notices. You’re a standing disgrace to your profession. I pity your clients and society at large for the damage your corrupt violation of basic medical evidence may have inflicted. Look the studies on transgender neurobiology and genetics all up in PubMed and explain yourself. How do you justify disregarding such a vast body evidence based biology and medical findings? And, on not just a bias, but an outright prejudice?
No, society must not accept anything. There is such a thing as individual beliefs, values, and opinions. You don't get to dictate those things, regardless of how hard you try.
Exactly. Everyone has their own mind. What ever happened to “be the change you want to see in the world”. Society is not one mind but the hodgepodge of all of us.
Do you know what civility is. Do you know what morality is. These are thing that society accepts and are neccessary of humans to live together in large groups. If you do not want recognize trans people make that argument. Do not make this meaningless argument for individual freedom. The debate was about what ought to do.
Exactly like I I would say to them I believe you believe it and I'll even call you what you want me to call you but as soon as you turn around and leave if somebody is standing in there and says do you really think that man is a woman I'll say hell no but I'm doing them the courtesy of calling them what they want to be called an acting to them like they want to be acted to because it's polite but as for literally believing in it I can't because I'm not one of them I don't think about things the way they do I think about things the way 99% of the people on the planet do I don't I think we should change the gender binary meaning or things like that for such a small percentage of the population you can add the term trans woman or trans man but that's as far as it goes I would have no problem being a friend to one of them or one of them being my friends or hanging out with them or defending them if somebody's messing with them I'll talk Praises about them when they're not around but when it comes to that single issue do you believe that man is a woman or woman is a man I'll say no but I believe they believe it I don't think if we agree on 99% of all the other ways to act towards them but this one way negates all the other 99% that's silly I just can't do it
Trans people are free to do and be whatever and whoever they wish to be, however their beliefs and wants don’t change the facts and biology and they don’t have the right to control speech.
Dos not whether or various paraphilliacs have a right to control whatever you mean by " free speech" rather depend on how you define a right? Without having recourse to cognates synonyms examples and descriptions and other forms of begging the question, how exactly*do* you define a right? I think you wll find that the tower of Babel or internet will not be able to help you with t either the definition of a right or what the words "a right" convey to you, which is probably virtually nothing since the word right as in " a right" is a blaub(rhymes with orb)
If only you had some slight idea what a right is as you are only now understanding that you have absolutely no idea what a right is, as you are about to demonstrate. If you have no idea what a right is, how do you known that a n other does not have one?
@@jackrobinson8328 You can't help being stupid, because having been stupefied somehow you have no idea that you have been stupefied.I think it can only be the lower classes that suppose it to be a fault or blameworthy to have been stupefied and thus stupid-You simply can't help it.
Transgender people don't challenge gender structures - they uphold them. The entire basis of transgender theory is dependent upon upholding gender structures and internalising them. I object to being told that I have a gender identity - what I have is a physical sex and a personality. Gender is the set of expectations imposed upon me because of my sex, designed to limit my options and keep my personality circumscribed.
What about the gender non-conforming trans people out there? If a trans man, as in female to male, wants to wear makeup his gender will immediately be put into question by others whether he passes or not. At the very least he'll be assumed gay. It's not us who force ourselves into stereotypes any more than any cis person. To assume that all trans people wish to appear uber masculine or feminine or obey traditional gender roles would be incorrect. I'm a trans guy and I don't give a fuck about what it is to be a man or what is expected of men. I came out when I stopped being afraid of what is expected and how I'll be treated. My gender does not equal gender roles imposed upon me from the ouside. It comes from the inside. I know who I am and that is not the body I was born with. You do not have to think about your gender, it's not part of your identity, or so you claim. Congratulations. But we have no a choice but to think about ours. Why is it so hard for people to allow us to be ourselves? You don't have to understand it. In fact you never can. Just respect it.
Why do you assume that it's gender-critical feminists - like Bronwyn Winter, like me, even - who impose gendered expectations upon you? I don't assume that any person must behave in a certain way because of their physical body. ::What:: you are does not have to determine ::who:: you are. Saying that society must recognise trans people's gender identities is to say that ::everyone:: must be characterised according to their adherence to gender stereotypes. There are people who feel so alienated from their bodies that only medical and/or surgical intervention will alleviate their discomfort. Such people ought to have access to appropriate treatment to enable them to feel comfortable in their own skin. But to assume that, for example, an anatomical male who feels most comfortable expressing 'femininity' as it's understood in our society must therefore change his body in order to avoid a mismatch between his sex and his 'gender' - that is absolutely upholding and reinforcing stereotypical assumptions about "right" ways for male and female humans to exist.
Sarah Blaquiere I do not place the blame of gendered expectations on a particular group of people. They're quite universal and some people impose them on themselves/others more than others. The point I was trying to make was that trans people don't all conform either and our existence is not a result of them, nor are we exceptionally guilty of perpetuating them. Who is saying one person's identity means everyone must identify the same way if they have similar expression? Who says a feminine man must transition? If you listen to trans people you'll find that nobody is saying that. It's ridiculous. You seem to have a very basic misunderstanding of what being trans is. Gender expression does not equal gender identity, even if that can be one component or sign of it. A feminine man is a man if he *identifies as such*. If he doesn't, he's not. It's that simple. I assume we agree that strict gender expectations are not a good thing? Well, whether someone is trans or not should be irrelevant. I was assigned female at birth but do not identify as a woman. I don't think it's too much to ask that my identity be respected and I will not be addressed as "she" (just like I'm guessing you wouldn't like to be addressed as "he") regardless of whether I'm on hormones or had surgery yet or am even going to. I do appreciate that you at least recognise that proper treatment should be available... Also, it's a fact that if I were to put on a pink, frilly dress, I'd *generally* be seen as even less of a man than a cis man who does that, because I apparently have something to prove... You see what I mean? I'm not entirely opposed to wearing makeup or high heels but that might not look good when seeking that treatment. Of course my gender identity isn't my entire identity (duh) but it's not unimportant. You'd understand if your womanhood was constantly questioned and you were seen as a man 27/7. Nobody is forcing you to identify as anything based on how girly or tomboyish you are and I'd bet a lot that us trans folk are less likely to uphold old fashioned gender expectations. A lot of us want everyone to be treated equally regardless of their sex. I dislike it when gender is treated as entirely a social costruct. To me it is more of an intuitive knowledge of what I'm meant to be. That doesn't match my sex, hence they are not the same thing. Naturally there is a social component, but most of that is just getting people to accept it and not constantly feed the dysphoria. edit: I'd forgotten about this awful debate by the time you replied...
Can you imagine being a man? Could you accept being transformed into a man in the next second and having to live as a man for the rest of your life? Can you imagine how you'd feel if you were constantly called by a male name and refused a female one, forced to use men's toilets and treated as a pervert if you wanted to use women's, expected to wear men's clothes and to function sexually and romantically as a man? If you couldn't stand this, you have a female gender identity.
Don't tell me what to think! You can think what you want. No one ever told you you could not identify as a woman or a man. But when you try to force it down our throats brutally, I'm not buying into it, man!
Its weird to listen to the transman. Because what many transactivists do is tell people they are 'cis' and have a gender identity too (which most people reject we have) and to lesbians they are bigots for being same sex attracted only, so not to transwomen as they are bio male. He in fact says this cannot be done to trans people, but can be done to non trans people. This is problematic for many people. obviously. What trans activists have to understand is their reality cannot be imposed on others, especially women as we are most attacked of any oppressed group by trans activists. Its a mess and trans movement needs to sort themselves out. You cannot tell homosexual males and females we are transphobes for being attracted to same sex, not to a gender identity. That is homophobia.
The trans side never argued from logic or science. It was all pure emotions. I mean where does it stop? Can I identify as anything anytime and anywhere as I please? If Trump were to identify as a woman today would that make him officially the first female president? This is silly. There seems to be no limits to this madness.
Is not the purpose of society to create a happy people? This is a moral debate, we are arguing over whether or not to accept the identities of trans people. Of course emotion will be the central issue.
@@rugvedkulkarni1593 yes but emotions aren't based in facts or science. Try basing society on emotions see how that goes for you. Happiness is subjective.
Science is pro trans. Merck Medical, the APA, NHS, WHO, and AMA are all overwhelmingly pro-trans because it's only evidence-based conclusion. Transphobes are emotional smoothbrained science deniers.
Short answer: no. No one gets the right to dictate how they be identified by others. No one gets the right to compel speech of others. The trans advocates seem to be saying, "I reject your reality and substitute my own." That's fine and all, but you dont get to define reality for others. Speaking of tolerance, wouldn't it be nice if trans advocates practiced what they preached and were tolerant of the views of others, rather than demanding everyone view this issue the same way?
They said gender identity is something only YOU can know. But still failed to define the "woman gender identity" and "man gender identity." You have to know the difference so you know which one you "feel like."
Well if you have the desire for a female body when you don't have one you have a female gender identity. And if you have the desire for a male body when you don't have one you have a male gender identity. That's not difficult to understand.
And if you have the desire for a 20ft tall body? society must pretend that you're 20ft tall? What of desire for an octopus body? Should you be fed to some Japanese people like other octopus?
A desire for a 20 ft tall body is not encoded during gestation in the brain-stem in certain nerve centres due to hormonal influence. Gender identity is.
Matthew McVeagh - ANYBODY is allowed to change their gender NOT just people with this 'encoded brain-stem' bs you pulled out your behind. Why shouldn't the same accommodations extend to people who identify as 20 ft tall? Why shouldn't a trans-height person have the right to force you into treating them as a giant?
Such madness that I don’t feel like a boy and I feel more like a girl and I think I would be more comfortable as a girl!Such insanity that I’m feeling dysphoric and I want to be a girl because I would feel more comfortable and happy.
@@Jay-oy1ld But you're not female, you'll never be female. So your "happiness" would only ever be an illusion. There's no such thing as "feeling like a man/woman". You are what you are. If you can't accept what you are, then how can you expect anyone to accept what you're not?
@@MysticDragonForce While you claim you guys know "basic biology" you should read advanced biology and realize that science actually supports us trans people
@@MysticDragonForce and since yall love sources for proof "Man/woman are terms that describe gender - they exist to denote the specific social behaviors, and roles individuals play in society, which makes gender a social construct. Human beings created gender by virtue of their shared understanding of the world. Male/female are two biological sexes that individuals are born into - but sometimes, as an individual grows, they realize their gender identity is at odds with the sex they were assigned at birth, which means they are trans. This realization is often accompanied by extreme unease with one’s body and gendered roles, which is known as gender dysphoria. According to the American Psychiatrist Association, a dysphoric individual will face severe mental health issues and negative self-image if they are forced to live with a gender identity they do not feel comfortable in. This is also why trans individuals have significantly higher rates of suicide." There you go
"Whenever you remove any fence, always pause long enough to ask yourself, 'Why was it put there in the first place?'" G.K. Chesterton, we have failed to recognize the latter and now we are left with the conundrum of trying to define what gender is
@Madeline McPherson The things are the same in my view. Biological sex is your sex. You cannot socially construct a sex and call it a sex. You are using the wrong words and confusing people, but I do understand gender dysphoria which makes far more sense although I don't validate their conclusions.
@Gauri Srivastava LOL. No bunch of men has the right to change the meaning of the word 'sex' or the meaning of the word 'woman'. Grow up lil one. No one cares about their bs. So easy to forget that the only way you got on this planet was through the body of a woman, your own mother. Sure she'd be happy if she knew you were pretending men could magically change into women.
No, we don't assume we know our chromosomal make-up on the basis of our "gender identity" - we assume it on the basis of our anatomy and overall bodily structure. Trans ideology is utterly dependent upon gendered stereotypes.
"There are no biological differences that hold true for all women and all men over the course of their lives." You know it all ends when lies are pedaled right at the very start.
Right? Even we have certain parts removed we still have other distinctly female parts. You can remove your uterus, fallopian tunes and ovaries and still have a vagina, labia, and clitoris. You can remove a woman's external parts and she still has the internal ones. Remove all the parts and she still has a 120 degree angle pelvis for birthing children rather than 90 degrees and a smaller heart and lungs than the average male. Even if her chromosomes aren't exactly xx due to disorders causing variations, she still hasn't got a y chromosome.
The only time a woman would have a y is if she had swyer syndrome and she would still have been born with at least some female reproductive parts, including a vulva and uterus. The condition is very rare and makes someone intersex not trans and the existence of intersex people doesn't mean that the biological woman is a myth. Just because all women are different doesn't mean a person without a single female sexual reproductive organ or biological sex characteristic is a woman. If you weren't born with either xx chromosomes or at least one female sexual reproductive organ, you aren't a woman. If you were born with at least one female biological sex characteristic, you are a woman. This affects our social conditioning and our life experience from birth to death and im tired of pretending that anyone can shed their social programming or societal expectations by changing clothes or that it doesn't reinforce stereotypes to claim that you're a woman because you do the things society labels as feminine.
How does "the Ethics Center" feel about giving hormones to minors? Just curious. The American Academy of Pediatrics calls it child abuse. Are we to accept child abuse, too?
All of us go through the same childhood and sometimes switch roles when we do play...a female child who is a tomboy does not mean that she is gay or be identified as transgender. She just happens to prefer climbing trees, wrestling with boys, etc., as more fun than staying at home and playing with dolls, pretend cooking, etc. Or, a male child who plays wonderwoman, loves to cook, etc rather than being superman is necessarily gay or be identified as transgender. Actually, I personally know a childhood male friend who did like to play wonderwoman but is now a happily married heterosexual man and surprisingly has no gender identity-crisis. It is not ethical for parents and the doctor to take-out the decision of children as young as 4 years old or a teen-ager by starting on a faulty hypothesis psychotherapy and giving them hormones when these same children may have preferred not be messed-up when they finally reach adulthood or to a stage of mental maturity when they can make their own reasons and decisions. How about the children's rights? I agree with you, Annabel Lee, that this kind of social trend to give hormones to children is a form of child abuse. This could give these abused children a created identity - crisis and social dysfunction later on in their lives as compared just being left as they are, help them grow through the childhood crisis, and make their own decisions when these children finally reach maturity or adulthood.
The terrible fraud of 'transgender medicine Quentin Van Meter, MD, FCP is a pediatric endocrinologist who was in the Johns Hopkins Univ. Hospital group where "transgender medicine" was developed describes the lies, bad medicine, and fraud behind that movement. ruclips.net/video/6mtQ1geeD_c/видео.html A Fellow of the American College of Pediatricians and the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists .
The government is not forcing you, or Jordan Peterson to believe other than what you believe. That was all a figment of Jordan's overactive imagination. Bill C-16 was put into law to protect those who are transgender from harassment. That means, if they so desire, they can take Jordan Peterson to COURT for his horrible words such as the following. But even THEY don't seem to care enough to bother with his nasty disposition. In January Jordan claimed on “The Joe Rogan Experience” podcast that being transgender is a result of a “social contagion” and similar to “satanic ritual abuse,” and suggested that acceptance of the trans community is a sign that “civilization’s collapsing.”
When I was young I met a patient who thought he was Napoleon. The staff in the hospital accommodated him because it kept him tranquil. However not one of them believed he was Napoleon and no one in their right mind did either. This nonsense today is akin to my story but we are all being asked to accommodate this outside the hospital. It leads to male sex offenders being admitted to womens prisons or taking the podium in womens sports. Its madness.
If you don’t want to conform to “gender norms” then don’t. You have that right because feminists fought for the right to completely ignore traditional gender roles. Nobody really cares what other people do and this isn’t actually about conforming or not conforming to gender roles. This is about a very small group of radical activists in a small population category of people who either self identify or are diagnosed with a mental disorder, gender dysphoria, that want to change language in order to somehow force people to perceive them the way they want to be perceived and therefore possibly make them feel better. The problem is they want people to basically lie. They want people to say things that aren’t true and many people do, to be polite, to virtue signal or because people are afraid of retaliation or accusations. They also want access to spaces reserved to certain sexes and when we ignore this we just create a new problem. I am willing to call anyone whatever pronoun or name they want, it doesn’t matter, on an individual level. But if I was a doctor or a biologist, it would matter because sex is real and a factor in medicine. So, there is a clear value to the biological sex categories of male and female. I can’t help but see there is kind of this prevailing practice now in western culture to just cater to any demands of these trans political activists in order to appease them or virtue signal or what have you, but are we really being responsible here? The radical trans activists don’t even agree or find consensus with the views of all trans identifying people. So, putting these far left ideologues on blast misrepresents the trans community. It’s not a monolith of people who feel the same way or hold the same definitions. There is another clear problem inherently in the nature of radical trans ideas because they are ideological, not scientific, and they are also clearly incoherent and self contradictory. But that’s kind what you would expect from people who have a mental disorder based on sex/gender and their perception of themselves. They are having trouble here and I don’t say that to be mean but it is what it is and not confronting the truth always leads to bigger problems. According to the radical trans activists, anyone can claim any gender identity and everyone should affirm it, there are not specific traits necessary to define it. So, really, as gender identity, man and woman have no clear definition to the radical trans. It’s essentially, everyone is whatever they say they are.... Ok but why transition and what are you transitioning from and too? If you are just your gender identity I don’t see why your body needs to be changed. There is no rule that says if you feel a certain way you have to have a certain sex or body type, although we do have gender norms and stereotypes in our culture. Is conforming to gender roles or fitting in the cognitive motivation behind gender dysphoria? I’m not sure gender stereotypes are a healthy way to model yourself or even realistic and I could see why our novel and over the top gender standards could cause people to have a mental illness, this makes sense. People who transition are clearly attempting to transitioning from one thing to the appearance of another thing and then pass as the other thing. We all get that, so what are they transitioning from and too? Well clearly they want to change their sex, but they can’t actually do that, so they can change the way they dress, get surgeries and take hormone therapy to take on the appearance of the opposite sex. Now, if sex isn’t real or defined then why are trans people so motivated to go through so much in order to take on the physical appearances associated with the opposite biological sex. This doesn’t match up to what the radical trans activists are saying, the rhetoric doesn’t make sense, it’s incoherent. The radical trans activists frankly don’t make sense and their tone is just too pushy and melodramatic. Of course they deserve equal rights and respect but making them an authority on gender and biology is bat shit insane. It’s not good for them, it won’t solve their problems and it doesn’t benefit human civilization or science in any clear way. This makes sense actually because they have gender dysphoria, they have a mental disorder associated with their perception of themselves which causes them to not accept their own body and to conclude they must change their appearance in order to match their feelings. But do feelings have anything to do with sex for most people? No, not really, I don’t think the vast majority of people ever think of themselves as having a gender identity. You are you, you have a personality and you have a body. If you try to fit in to cultural gender norms, that is about trying to fit in, that isn’t who you are, you are whatever you are. If the concept of gender identity leads to people needing to have surgery, take hormones and force everyone around them to perceive them a certain way (this is also an impossible task), then maybe it’s not such a great concept. I don’t want to stigmatize mental illness and that is not my intention but unfortunately certain things just need to be said, in the interest of truth. It doesn’t seem to make sense to put the people who are having a mental health issue related to sex/gender in charge of societies standards, definitions and values. So, should radical trans people be the ones to define our civilizations language? No, that’s silly, but we should hear them out. Here’s the thing, we have no use for categorizing individuals by “gender identity” or any other personality traits that can’t be quantified or observed in any way. It can’t even be done. If people can’t even define gender identity or agree that it exists then it’s obviously not a good candidate for the government to use to categorize human citizens. Biological sex is well understood as an essential part of our species, it also happens to be central to human reproduction. Biological sex is relevant to human medicine, it’s science, it’s tangible. There is no reason or benefit to anyone to push this stuff so hard.
This is the tragedy that showed me what this insane, horrific ideology leads to. This happened in my family. Two gay women adopted a baby boy. At the time, they "joked" that too bad it was a boy, and maybe they'd be lucky and he'd turn out gay. A year later one of these women decided to identify as queer and demanded everyone use they/them pronouns and no longer refer to her as a woman. A year after that, these women publicly announced on Facebook that the little boy they'd adopted, just 3 years old by this time, was a girl! Complete with new pronouns. Everyone on Facebook applauded their bravery and understanding and acted like something beautiful had happened. This is what this pathology leads to: child abuse masked as righteousness. Not only aren't they held to account, they're celebrated! Meanwhile, that poor little boy is sacrificed at the altar.
If ‘recognition’ means that I must pretend that I believe that a man can magically change his sex to a woman just because he ‘feels’ like it then he is shit out of luck.
The problem is they don't just want acceptance. They want me to celebrate it. I will not do that. I do not celebrate schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, or even Downs Syndrome. All of these conditions will earn my sympathy, and my assistance in whatever capacity that takes. But I won't celebrate it.
First, schizophrenia is a mental disorder, multiple personality disorder is a dissociation, and Down’s syndrome is having an extra chromosome. Being transgender is an innate sense that contrasts one sex at birth. Why are you trying to compared all these different things as if they are all the same?
@@kimberlycarter369 I didn't say they were the same. I very clearly explained the commonality between them all in that I won't celebrate those conditions. Did you not read my whole comment?
@@kimberlycarter369 gender dysphoria is also a mental illness. Believing you are the sex you can never be is fundamentally, a delusional belief. Sex is by definition, an immutable trait. If you have XX chromosomes, you are female and XY determines maleness. This of course excludes the existence of inter-sex individuals, but in all such cases, the reason for them being intersex can be traced to an exact and deterministic malfunction in normal biological processes. Convincing yourself that this biological reality doesn't apply to you, is purely delusional. Believing you can extend that delusion to the rest of society is double-extra delusional.
One significant issue/problem with identification with a 'gender' rather than a 'sex' is that over time we've gained a better understanding that women aren't simply soft, feminine, caring and motherly, and men aren't simply aggressive, strong, etc etc. We've finally gotten to a place where most people reccognize men and women have a huge cross-over on nearly any category. Women and men can't be defined as a whole by nearly any description other than their genetics and sexual organs. This is a great leap forward for society. It's brought us a greater understanding of the vast ranges of possibilities in being either male or female. It's allowed us to accept those who don't fit the stereotypes foisted on us by previous generations' misconceptions of what it means to be a man or a woman. But the Gender movement in a serious way tears much of that hard fought progress apart by now claiming that someone who feels certain ways about themselves 'must' be respected as a gender of their chosing. This claim signifies that although someone might be a woman, she knows she's a man because she 'feels' a certain way. What then does that mean? Is there a way to 'feel' being a man? I thought people could be men or women and still be any number of things. If we accept that people of either sex can be whoever they are regardless of societal norms, then where does the idea come from that someone's personality or state of being in any way can prove, to them or anyone else that they have a 'certain' gender of either kind? It seems to me the people claiming that they are a gender other than that of their sex are claiming that men and women 'can' be defined and by the attributes they are claiming to possess. This is a step backwards.
@Green Monster Can The boy felt something was wrong because he was still a boy. Removing the sex organ does not change the fact he was still a biological male. Its more than just your junk its in your DNA, and boys are already masculinized in the womb before being born. Also that brain study you mention is very limited. And no they were not shown to be closer to the opposite sex but rather right in the middle. Also its just from a certain perspective since we are not even close to mapping the human brain, we are barely just scratching the surface. At best its a clue that there might be something there but premature to claim it as some kind of evidence for the claims of transgenderism. But even if we have feminine and masculine brains then I say so what. We have always had men who were more feminine than most and women who were more masculine than most without claiming that means they actually are the opposite sex. I'm a gay guy myself and in my community you can find many gay men who have more feminine mannerism than most transwomen but are still perfectly happy with being men with penises. Same the other way around with masculine lesbians. You could argue transgenderism is in fact a form of conversion therapy for young gay kids since most children who question their gender grow out of it and turn out to be gay.
the first speaker (an obvious FtoM) is requesting she is addressed as a he, yet as soon as the camera is panned towards her, i can tell immediately the first speaker is a woman using testosterone. and so how is 99% of the otherwise normal population supposed to handle this situation in everyday life? of course we do a double take and of course we think its completely weird but now i'm a bully for even thinking that. and i'm supposed to hold all these reactionary feelings in check? but what about OUR FEELINGS AS WE GRAPPLE WITH THE MADNESS OF IT ALL? in this big push to normalise the absurd, are the natural feelings of the 99% now a criminal offence? we also have to think carefully about how to address this person so they are not upset, binary? fluid? they? non-binary? nongender? the whole thing's ridiculous, it's the tail wagging the dog. for every sane person watching this who disagrees with the 'sweetly aggressive' transgender agenda (for certainly there is one), lets all of us PRETEND we're fine with it all, let's all agree to participate in the sham and that way all of us can add to the falsity of it all. and the end result? everybody going about their business silently thinking this is complete bullshit but outwardly everybody saying, yeah, great, right on! of course there are human hurts here in spades but the whole politics of it all makes me want to reach for the sick bucket
What got me is the way they were saying cis people are choosing their identity too when they answer whether they're male or female. No, I'm not choosing how to identify, dude. I'm telling you what's on my birth certificate. The factual truth of my biology. It's not my identity. It's not how I identity. It's my biological sex. And yes, you can now go to the dmv and have yourself labeled how you identify, but before we allowed that, we based it on the birth certificate. No one pronounced us male or female at birth. They observed what we were from looking at our biological sex characteristics and that's how I knew I was female. Just because you would rather be a different sex than you are doesn't mean you aren't the sex that you were born as. You can choose to present however you want and take on any identity you want and I will respect it but that doesn't mean you get to pretend biological sex doesn't exist and eliminate the protections put into place to protect biological women.
It is also the transgendered community responsibility to make sure that they're not shoving it down the throats of society. I for one cannot accept something that's being perceived by me as a forced objective.
@@JTCT371 I can spend five seconds on Google and find an actual trove of overwhelming scientific support for trans people from countless reputable scientific bodies. You have nothing but emotive crying and denial on your side.
I'm done pretending gender is not arbitrary and acting as though people aren't free to interact with it however they want. I'm done pretending trans people aren't an objective scientific reality, and like the people crying about trans people existing are smart or worthwhile enough have anything worth contributing to any discussion. Thanks, it feels good accepting reality.
@@willcollier6623 It is given unto man once to live and then the judgment. I am sure that this trangender thing is against God as He made them male and female.
@@Rayblondie you are confused. We are in control of this world. We are in control of ourselves. Through Jesus, God has done all that He needed to do and all that He is going to do. Now it’s up to us...to get it right...or not.
The position is: "you should refer to people how they want to be referred to as a basic courtesy" Would you call the child of an courtesy parent not their real child because the are not biologically related. No. It is called having manners.
haha well put. you summed it up. the whole gender debate has no referrence to biology... the speakers crudentials are largely jus their own experiences and feelings
People shouldn't be legally forced to recognize individual self identifications because that would be thought policing. What should be forced is equality under the law. No one should be discriminated solely because of gender identity. But the important thing is what kind of people we are and how we treat each other. If I see that my behavior hurts a person's feelings I'll change because I don't want to hurt people who did nothing wrong to me. It's about who I am, my dignity and self respect. Personally if you're bullying people because of their gender identification, you have no respect from me even if we ideologically agree. Bully is a bully. That doesn't mean that I won't criticize various ideas of gender identity I don't agree with.
No you should be confrontational with people that have "some" ideas. We would never have gotten out of religious obscurantism if it was not for people criticising and making hurtful statements towards religion. This idea that you need not to hurt other people's feelings is utter BS. There are things that are far more important than your audience's feelings and you should have the balls to say them
@@ImplosiveCatt Being confrontational about an idea more often than not involves hurting peoples feelings. If that's not your experience you're not being confrontational AT ALL
@@ZipMapp People's feelings get hurt all the time, no matter what was the reason. That's not what I'm talking about. It is important to put criticism into perspective. Criticism can be good in the right hands and very harmful in the wrong hands because the most successful lies is at least 90% truth. What I mean by that is that if you're smart enough, you can just use the same (90% truth) mantra to prove your point. CNN and Fox are doing that all the time. Every mainstream media is doing that. The bottom line is that noone is interested in constructive and inspiring conversation. While we're having fun in chess play, people are suffering.
When someone declare we must regognise males who feel like women as women, what they really say is: "we don't recognise women anymore". Because being a woman is not a felling. It's a biological reality. I can be completely different from a other woman, we may have nothing in commun, except from one: we are female human beings. We need to regonize transpeople for who they are and respect them. But a man is not a woman and vice versa. We live in a society where we can do everything we want or almost. No need to "be a man" to go to work or "be a woman" to raise a kid anymore. If a adult want to pass as the other sex, why not. But we don't have to pretend it's true and place a man in a women prison at the expense of women safety and dignity. Nor permet men to compete in women sports. Nor changing the meaning of words like "women" and "lesbian" in order to please some men.
Didn't the against win the argument? Since they changed more people's minds? Why did the moderator say the For won the debate? Doesn't he understand how a debate works?
The winner should be based off the change in opinion, not the overall percentages. obviously the crowd was overwelmingly supportive of the idea in the 1st place, even though populations as a whole would vote this motion down
Exactly. But having the Philosophy Professor on the panel was cheating. Ideologues convince by force and emotion, academics by reasoning. Clearly, people who are undecided or predisposed to changing their mind were more likely to be convinced by reasoning than emotion.
Yeah, I thought it was! Or is that just the U.S. version of Intelligence Squared that declares the winning side to be the side that had the greatest positive movement for their position? A +20% is a big jump in opinion, and the pro side was DOWN 11%. That's quite a shift.
The questions shouldn't be so rigged from the start. IQ2 is terrible about this. Debates often hinge on words like "always," "never," "absolute," "best," "must," etc.
You don't change a language for 2% of the population, that's common sense. No one said you need to be a caricature man or woman. You can be a linear interpolation of the two if you want. But don't start to bullshit with a new axis, it doesn't make any sense
@@coffeecake141 There's no proof of existence of any god nor is there any proof of the nonexistence. Gender is not a social construct, it's the behavioral patterns that describe how the 95% middle quantile behaves which is .9 correlated with sex
*I thought it very telling, that the only speakers who were heckled and abused by audience members shouting out, were the two speakers on the right, who were against the motion being put forward.* *I also thought it interesting, that the American film producer, accidentally let his/her male voice slip out. Listen to the delicate and feminine = almost timid voice he/she **_'puts on'_** initially at **24:32** then listen to his/her obviously natural, deeper, and far more masculine voice, when he/she interrupts the lady in green at **44:54**. The difference is quite marked.* *In a true democracy, the many DO NOT change in order to accommodate the few. When transgender people become the majority of the 7.93 billion population of the world, I may acquiesce to their DEMANDS. Until then, I'll continue calling people born male, boys or men, and people who were born female, girls or women thanks very much!*
At the 29:00 mark, we're treated to an analogy of left-handedness/right-handedness, and my first reaction was "That's hardly analogous to the ideology of genderism" but the more I thought about it, the more applicable such a bizarre analogy seemed. Self-identification applied to maleness/femaleness is just as preposterous as when applied to right-handedness or left-handedness. You don't _identify_ as being right or left handed, you simply *are* right or left handed. I happen to be right-handed. Let's suppose that from the moment I initially recognized this about myself, I responded by really *really* wanting to be left-handed because left-handedness deeply resonates with me and my self-schema. Thus, I choose to self-identify as a left-handed person who was simply born in the wrong body (a body geared toward right-handedness). Should society encourage my sloppy thinking by telling me that I am _indeed_ left-handed because it's what I'd like to be? Or should I just grow up and get over myself? I vote for the latter. Being right/left-handed isn't important to begin with and any importance I place on it would be driven by arbitrary psychological factors. Ditto with gender (masculinity/femininity performance).
+AntiBullshitMan Gender (sex) is not an act, for trans people. It's the biological brain, in mismatch or poor match with the rest of the body. Your thought experiment doesn't work because being right-handed is identical to feeling right-handed. You don't have a different "right hand" than someone else who is right-handed, barring some deformity which is not a relevant part of the discussion.
+rg0057 "Gender (sex)" Right there, terminological sloppiness. The two words are not synonymous & use of parenthesis to assert otherwise is odd. Let's use two different words and pretend they have interchangeable definitions. Yeah, no. Gender and sex are different words for a reason. Gender denotes femininity & masculinity _performance_ while 'sex' consists of biological maleness & biological femaleness (& rarely intersex). Anatomically speaking, these descriptors are nonnegotiable, which is why individuals who feel terribly uncomfortable with their own bodies can be said to suffer from anatomical/bodily dysphoria, _not_ gender dysphoria. A person who enjoys performing femininity (a type of gender role) can do so regardless of the shape/type of their anatomy. The only way to object to this is through appeals to tradcon style genderism; the belief that anatomy & personality are invariably interlocked. This view is absurd as it entails that (1) males who aren't masculine & females who aren't feminine all have malfunctioning brains and that _that_ explains their gender nonconformity, and (2) only intersex individuals can be expected to enjoy being gender-less or androgynous... because their anatomy _is_ their behavior. Somehow. Biological & physiological factors effect human behavior to the extent that (1) different individuals have different levels of testosterone and estrogen, (2) reproductive roles are a thing. This excludes roughly 80% of the "gender roles" transgender ideology has people believing they can't perform unless their anatomy lines up with their notions of gender. (that, plus autogynephilia). If performing femininity is inborn rather than learned, every tomboy in history would "feel trapped in the wrong body" but they don't. Feeling like you were born in the wrong _body_ means you suffer from _bodily_ dysphoria. This is unfortunate, and such individuals deserve our compassion & understanding, but uncritical lib-progs associate it with gender roles because Gender Essentialism (a deeply conservative view of masculinity & femininity) is still entrenched in most western societies.
If it's just you working out whether you are right or left handed, I don't particularly care. But you then claim access to something previously precious or essential to the left handers only etc etc it's no longer just a matter of personal preference.
This was a sorry excuse for a debate. There was hardly any chance for the opposing side to comment on each other's points and John Haldane was the only one who actually focused on the topic of the debate.
The woman says "i work with transgender teens and i swear upon God *place hand on chest, that it is not a one night fase, that they are like this since forever" forever? A teenager? They sure lived a lot. A couple of years before forever they used to be children and children believe in Santa Claus. I wanted to be Peter Pan not Wendy when i was 10... A lot of gay kids love to dress as girls, today they grow very delusional thinking they can be happier as trans. There is no such a thing of being happier as you make your body disfunctional. I see a lot of sadness in the solitary narcissism of the transgender people, especially the autogynephillic ones, and i think the fierce activism is a way to cope with that pain they constantly feel, not inflicted by society as they preach, but inflected on themsleves by themselves.
My daughter of 8 wants to be neytiri from avatar. Should i chemically color her skin blue and cut one finger from each hand and surgically attach her a tail.
How many very young vulnerable and impressionable children are going to be subjected to this madness with potentially damaging psychological and physical effects for years to come and nobody will be held to account for their suffering?!
This is the tragedy that showed me what this insane, horrific ideology leads to. This happened in my family. Two gay women adopted a baby boy. At the time, they "joked" that too bad it was a boy, and maybe they'd be lucky and he'd turn out gay. A year later one of these women decided to identify as queer and demanded everyone use they/them pronouns and no longer refer to her as a woman. A year after that, these women publicly announced on Facebook that the little boy they'd adopted, just 3 years old by this time, was a girl! Complete with new pronouns. Everyone on Facebook applauded their bravery and understanding and acted like something beautiful had happened. This is what this pathology leads to: child abuse masked as righteousness. Not only aren't they held to account, they're celebrated! Meanwhile, that poor little boy is sacrificed at the altar.
We are told we ALL have a gender identity. So how on earth can rejecting the idea of gender identity be considered intolerant if we ALL have it??...It's like me being accused of prejudice against humans because I decided to no longer identify as human.
And who told you that? What is even a gender identity? We all have ...? No. We have something called sex. It is the way our body is shaped and function. There are stereotipes related to sexes, but one can decide to not conform to them. Gender my a**, aka, John Money, human experiments, teens hysteria and the church if genderology.
Why don't we have lofty ideals about violating women's right to single sex spaces? Women's right to be free from male violence and lechery never gets addressed.
That was an interesting discussion. That a reasonable explication of some of the basic issues was so enlightening may be why so much effort has been put into stopping such discussions from happening.
Debating gender insults the resiliency of human dignity and spirit. Existing laws facilitate freedom of expression. To avow another’s happiness is not society’s duty.
Matthew McVeagh, yes the word “debate” doesn’t adequately clarify the point that there is no lawful necessity for the debate. To be or not to be, is and will hopefully be decided well into the future by the individual. Let’s give thanks to all those threatened, ostracized, tortured, and martyred for Western individual freedoms and dignity. Yay Gay Pride!
Matthew McVeagh, the insult is about the suggested necessity that some people need additional laws not only to be validated but to achieve some unknown criteria of happiness. This is nonsensical bec the person/s making the gender claim exist and anyone challenging it confirms that existence. Furthermore, debating whether or not happiness is the responsibility of the other is a horrific nonvalidating proposal. My whole entire being and happiness awaits upon your approval. If not, then the law will make it so. Now, that’s happiness.
You don't make a lot of sense... things without minds can't be insulted. Trans people need laws to protect them from other people's prejudice, it doesn't have to do with their happiness. Gender and sex are things defined in law, besides their natural and cultural existence. I don't see what the existence of a person making a gender claim has to do with whether the claim is valid or not. It's also ridiculous to say that debating anything is 'horrific': you have an extreme line in hyperbole.
Not to mention that self-diagnosis of a psychological condition is subjective and subject to error. Just because you feel something is the case, doesn't mean it is.
Psh! If transwomen are women, then the word "trans" won't be there. The problem I see is when someone comes out as a transwoman, HE expects people to say yes to everything HE wants and if you say no, HE'LL cry out discrimination then call you transphobic.
@@basedchimera5859 intersex people are still either male or female but have a variety of Phenotypic expressions for primary and secondary sexual characteristics. The term intersex is archaic and should be done away with because people read it and think it's between sexes when it's not.
You cannot demand that other people subscribe to your subjective perspective of yourself. It’s bizarre that a person who is born male should believe they are the ultimate arbiter of what being a woman really means .
+ally Dee On this we both agree. A number of radical feminists have been censured recently and I think its atrocious. How can anybody hope to build consensus by gagging people with differing ideas. If folks are so thin skinned that they can't bear to hear opposing views, they're going to paint themselves into far tighter corners than whether or not the general public is willing to accept their "gender". Truth is, the gender community is tiny, even compared to the LGB part of LGBT... This is about human beings living together, putting personal interest aside for the greater good, and coming up with ways to embrace and accept human diversity. Women represent half the population. Their needs must come first. On the flip side however, I don't agree the fundamental problem is gender. That's like blaming skin color for racism. The problem isn't gender, all primates display sexually specific behavior. The problem is and has always been irresponsible male dominance and competition leading to social structures that reducing women into property and men into human doings perpetuating a machine that only serves the meager few at the top. One of my favorite links; riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/a-glimpse-into-a-world-where-females-and-non-alpha-males-are-the-socially-dominant-genders/ In 1995, the Women Leaders in the world convened to look at the biggest problems facing humanity, and over population was identified as one of the most critical problems. They came up with a plan that would have placed a ceiling on human population at 7,000,000,000 (ironically our current population), and then a slow and sane reduction by natural attrition to under 1,000,000,000 over the next century. All it required was; 1. All people including women receive an education. 2. All people including women receive adequate medical treatment. 3. All women have access to contraception and have the right to have only as many children as they choose. The first item allows women to have autonomous lives as something other than breeding machines. The second allows children to live so a mother and father can have fewer than 10 children and still have children that reach adulthood to support them in their old age. The third gives women choice. No sane woman wants to give birth to 10 or more children. A woman's body isn't designed to drop litters. The men of the world promptly ignored the women. We now stand at 7,000,000,000 and if we instituted these changes today, the peak human population would be 10,000,000,000. We teeter at the brink of disaster and still the men in power continue as though nothing is wrong with the way they manage the world. Because it suits them. This is the nature of this failed system and gender base discrimination is just one of many aspects. The issue is the inhumane use of human beings. The issue is primate sexual behavior allowed to run its ultimate course empowered by human technology. It is inherently self destructive. A revolution is called for.
Not at the expense of heterosexual women, gays, or lesbians, who are those where sex matters as a matter of their essential definition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just watched this from start to finish several times over the last few weeks and I am curious how anyone watching this can come to the conclusion those arguing for gender identity put forth a more convincing case?
Yeah, like for example, I don't have to recognize that you are human. You may think that you are human and thats fine by me. Just don't expect me to play along with that fantasy.
The problem is the laws that trans women want to change will directly affect the laws women and gays fought and suffered for to earn. If gender doesn't matter then laws protecting gender issues are not needed. If sexuality is a preference , not an orientation then gay rights are not needed. If being gay is just a kink and being female is just personal expression then there's no need to protect them as a class.
If it's simply a normal trait, where aren't there more, A; and B, why is such extensive surgery and treatment and coaching required to effect that trait?
I have excepted transsexuals for decades. I do not however support the transgender ideology. Leave kids to grow up and decide as adults what they need to do. I am very close to this topic personally as a lesbian who wanted to be a boy for many years. I grew out of it.
😒 i don't know about anybody else, but i'm just sick of em' altogether... i mean, what the hell do they want?... what's the plan, to annoy people to death?... call yourself whatever, slice/inject whatever, live however, but leave people and their kids alone... simple...
While the motion passed, it seems clear to me the debate was won by those opposing. Despite there being 20% up for grabs as 'undecided', and starting with a whopping 76%, they went backwards more than the undecided did, which means some of those who initially voted for them abandoned them. The reason for that, I suspect, is John Haldane brought the training of a highly accomplished philosopher to the motion itself and honed in on the "Society must recognise" issue. I'll bet that gave a lot of people pause for thought, even a partisan crowd predisposed to be sympathetic to trans issues. I happen to think he's correct, and the only one that brought anything of significance to consideration of the motion as it was stated.
On the strength of the arguments alone, gender critical stomped transgender activists unquestionably. This seems like a stupid way to gauge the outcome of a debate.
It's now approximately 7 years since this video aired, in that time I've rarely seen any debate of this type on this issue. I have seen a lot of attempts to deplatform and bully people especially women with gender critical views. I can't help but think trans activism knows it relies on emotive argument and a plea for acceptance and "be kind", while at the same time encouraging people to punch terfs, harass women, get them sacked from their jobs, shout them down and avoid debate because their position doesn't stand up to rational debate. I say this knowing that there are legal protections for trans people and I'm glad that there are, it should be no reason for discrimination or abuse but at the end of the day no one has to accept that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man. How another adult wants to live their live that doesn't harm another human being is entirely up to them and if identifying as another gender is what they need to be happy or feel to be their genuine self then by all means let them live their lives as much as we can. But that does not mean males identifying as women should have automatic entry into women's spaces, women's sports or that anyone has to recognise them under fear of being called a bigot.
@@Malky5279 Given he wrote it in 1932, I wonder what book Aldous Huxley might have written were he to use the same title of his deservedly famous work but apply it from today's various situations? "Brave New World" indeed.
@@Malky5279 p.s. I forgot to add that I often find it very interesting when a comment comes along to something I'd written years ago, and yours is no exception. Cheers
@@steeltrap3800 When the video was uploaded it wasn't even remotely on my radar as an issue. I'm in Scotland and it was only really in 2022 when self ID legislation was proposed here that it gained headlines that it prompted me to look deeper into it and try and come to an informed opinion on a subject that seemed alien and until then slightly esoteric. I'd no idea how much trans activism had taken root in some areas of the world like Canada, my instinct was absolutely live and let live but the demands of trans activism has gone well beyond that and when you see what women like Maya Forstater and Kathleen Stock had to endure it was really eye opening.
I am a white woman,I want to identify as a black 80 year old man,if they can identify as a woman why can't I identify as someone who is not my race, sex or age?this is how silly it is getting
Since when gender of a person depends on his "feeling/opinion" about his gender? One day - one gender, next day another, because person changed his "feeling/opinion"...
I keep looking at the picture of the person I clicked on to get to the video and keep asking myself: who wants to spend all that $$, and go through all the hassle just to become/look like an "ugly woman" ??
The first speaker attempts to confuse the argument: "when people refuse to recognize trans identities they're not just sayiung WE DON'T THINK THAT THIS TRANS WOMAN IS A WOMAN, what they are saying is WE KNOW THAT THIS TRANS WOMAN IS REALLY A MAN. So they're not just saying I REFUSE TO RECOGNIZE YOUR IDENTITY, they're actually saying I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DO WHO IT IS THAT YOU REALLY ARE. All of my life I could detect who was a man and who I wanted to date without looking at his genitals and I never got it wrong, why they want us to start "guessing" now? The OBVIOUS thing is not up for discussion, period. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. No man or woman is none, or both. This you are trying to push is a delusion and thankfully most people are SANE and won't play along. You want to be called "HER"? We can do that, out of empathy. You want to invade women spaces, women sports? HELL NO! You need to get it in your head that you can't and you won't control logic. YOU need to come to terms with this fact: IDENTIFYING AS A WOMAN IS NOT THE SAME AS BEING ONE.
I feel that regular people are being pushed into a corner and scolded for not going along with this insane narative. Men are men and women are women ,this will never change. You can not be what you are not.
24:24 - up is down and down is up. I've been lectured on the correct way to think about this by 'transwomen', in the mainstream media, on a near-daily basis since 2014. Including this IQ2 debate, I can count TWO instances where skeptics of transgender ideology have been given an opportunity to present a contrary viewpoint, and the other was the Doctor Drew Show episode on which the infamous "Zoey Tur" incident occurred.(/-DE_WOCHITk?t=5m19s)
"You're more than just your body parts..." So why the hell did you feel the need to change ::your:: body parts in order to fully be "yourself"?
Because they didn't identify with them. They identified with the opposite sex, which has other body parts.
Sara I agree
+Matthew McVeagh strange
Marina "Un-manly", "Un-lady-like". Ever heard of these words?
well done Sarah, I totally agree, one solid statement..... well said
I find it interesting when trans women say "I've always felt like a girl or woman". My question as a girl and woman is how do you know what it feels like to be a girl and a woman. How do you know how we feel? It's impossible for a boy or man to know what it feels like to be a girl or a woman. I could go over hundreds of life experiences as a girl or woman that no boy or man could ever have experienced. When trans people say they want to be a woman what they are saying is that they want to 'look' like an idealised view of a woman which is not actually the same as a being a woman.
I agree, telling the kids its ok that if they want to be a girl if there a boy or a boy if there girl because they wonder what it would be like opposite gender is wrong. They should be told that if they ask that no matter how hard you try you can never change the sex your born as and should be happy the way you are.
Can you know that though? Maybe there's such a thing as a sexed brain, and all us (cis people) whose bodies match our mental sex don't notice it for lack of dissonance. Imagine *your* mind was born into a male body - I think that's what trans women claim to experience.
@@HiAdrian Don't call them cis, there is already a term for it: Male and female.
@American Hero What made up word? Cis? You could make the same argument by replacing the shorthand it with a longer phrase.
This so spot on I screen shotted it! I am r studying up on this topic atm. All a “trans” person is doing is attempting to make themselves look like a bad woman. In ways of physical appearance, behaviour, attitudes and overall presentation. The bitter truth is a man will NEVER be a woman. You do not know what it “feels” like to be a woman. Yo will never know what it feels like to move through the world as a little girl…. The traumatising time or puberty. Seeing yourself put on weight; hips and thighs thicken, breasts grow and eventually bleeding for the first time. U will never know the feeling of being a teenage girl and being frightened u will get ur period in the wrong place. I will never forget I got my period for the second time ever right before a waterpolo game - and the panic that ensued
Personally after working in Psychiatry for 40 years I dont think I could ever get comfortable with reinforcing someones delusional beliefs.
I wish more people working in your field agreed with you!
This didn't age well. How could anyone get comfortable using all of the new Pronouns, which new pronouns seem to get added every week. There is now around 300 Pronouns, and that is including all the Neo Pronouns as well. So if some kids are found on the streets playing, and want everyone around them to refer to them as a cat, can we take that child to an animal shelter and get it spade or neutered? You know be a responsible citizen, and keep the streets clean from any feral cats. 😊
It’s funny that as a doctor- you’ve decided to disregard decades of hard science data - in neurobiology, genetics and epigenetics- tossed every single biological and medical fact and data point- all of which clearly show that a) being trans is inborn or develops, in that brief prenatal window, that there is enduring lifelong structural as well as functional functional brain biology, none of which is per-se ‘a disorder’ so much as variation with normal range
And as to the claim of ‘delusion’ - none of which has ANY correlation whatsoever with the areas, neurotransmitters nor any other process already well established to be implicated in delusional, hallucinatory, n schizophrenic nor schizosffective processes.
…That you’ve chosen freely and in violation of your own professional ethics- to call these decades of hard science findings false or irrelevant-
In service to upholding a theory that, on the data, could not possibly be at all accurate.
It should disgust anyone talking to a professional scientist to have to say this but here’s how science goes: when your THEORY doesn’t match the DATA, you scrap your theory. You don’t simply hide the data and hope nobody notices.
You’re a standing disgrace to your profession. I pity your clients and society at large for the damage your corrupt violation of basic medical evidence may have inflicted.
Look the studies on transgender neurobiology and genetics all up in PubMed and explain yourself.
How do you justify disregarding such a vast body evidence based biology and medical findings? And, on not just a bias, but an outright prejudice?
No, society must not accept anything. There is such a thing as individual beliefs, values, and opinions. You don't get to dictate those things, regardless of how hard you try.
Exactly. Everyone has their own mind. What ever happened to “be the change you want to see in the world”. Society is not one mind but the hodgepodge of all of us.
In order for individuals to enjoy the benefits of society, they have to give up certain freedoms to that society.
Do you know what civility is. Do you know what morality is. These are thing that society accepts and are neccessary of humans to live together in large groups. If you do not want recognize trans people make that argument. Do not make this meaningless argument for individual freedom. The debate was about what ought to do.
@@rugvedkulkarni1593 civility is men not f'ing barging into women's locker rooms.
Now go away.
@@whitleypedia Freedom of thought, speech, association, and self-defense are not among those.
You know someone is insecure in their own reality when they demand other people play along with their lies.
Ben shapiro
Upb tvo Most definitely!✌
Truth!
I definitely agree
Exactly like I I would say to them I believe you believe it and I'll even call you what you want me to call you but as soon as you turn around and leave if somebody is standing in there and says do you really think that man is a woman I'll say hell no but I'm doing them the courtesy of calling them what they want to be called an acting to them like they want to be acted to because it's polite but as for literally believing in it I can't because I'm not one of them I don't think about things the way they do I think about things the way 99% of the people on the planet do I don't I think we should change the gender binary meaning or things like that for such a small percentage of the population you can add the term trans woman or trans man but that's as far as it goes I would have no problem being a friend to one of them or one of them being my friends or hanging out with them or defending them if somebody's messing with them I'll talk Praises about them when they're not around but when it comes to that single issue do you believe that man is a woman or woman is a man I'll say no but I believe they believe it I don't think if we agree on 99% of all the other ways to act towards them but this one way negates all the other 99% that's silly I just can't do it
Trans people are free to do and be whatever and whoever they wish to be, however their beliefs and wants don’t change the facts and biology and they don’t have the right to control speech.
Dos not whether or various paraphilliacs have a right to control whatever you mean by " free speech" rather depend on how you define a right? Without having recourse to cognates synonyms examples and descriptions and other forms of begging the question, how exactly*do* you define a right? I think you wll find that the tower of Babel or internet will not be able to help you with t either the definition of a right or what the words "a right" convey to you, which is probably virtually nothing since the word right as in " a right" is a blaub(rhymes with orb)
That's just a start. I remember a time when people weren't so stupid.
If only you had some slight idea what a right is as you are only now understanding that you have absolutely no idea what a right is, as you are about to demonstrate.
If you have no idea what a right is, how do you known that a n other does not have one?
@@jackrobinson8328 You can't help being stupid, because having been stupefied somehow you have no idea that you have been stupefied.I think it can only be the lower classes that suppose it to be a fault or blameworthy to have been stupefied and thus stupid-You simply can't help it.
Transgender people don't challenge gender structures - they uphold them. The entire basis of transgender theory is dependent upon upholding gender structures and internalising them. I object to being told that I have a gender identity - what I have is a physical sex and a personality. Gender is the set of expectations imposed upon me because of my sex, designed to limit my options and keep my personality circumscribed.
What about the gender non-conforming trans people out there? If a trans man, as in female to male, wants to wear makeup his gender will immediately be put into question by others whether he passes or not. At the very least he'll be assumed gay. It's not us who force ourselves into stereotypes any more than any cis person. To assume that all trans people wish to appear uber masculine or feminine or obey traditional gender roles would be incorrect. I'm a trans guy and I don't give a fuck about what it is to be a man or what is expected of men. I came out when I stopped being afraid of what is expected and how I'll be treated. My gender does not equal gender roles imposed upon me from the ouside. It comes from the inside. I know who I am and that is not the body I was born with. You do not have to think about your gender, it's not part of your identity, or so you claim. Congratulations. But we have no a choice but to think about ours. Why is it so hard for people to allow us to be ourselves? You don't have to understand it. In fact you never can. Just respect it.
Why do you assume that it's gender-critical feminists - like Bronwyn Winter, like me, even - who impose gendered expectations upon you?
I don't assume that any person must behave in a certain way because of their physical body. ::What:: you are does not have to determine ::who:: you are.
Saying that society must recognise trans people's gender identities is to say that ::everyone:: must be characterised according to their adherence to gender stereotypes.
There are people who feel so alienated from their bodies that only medical and/or surgical intervention will alleviate their discomfort. Such people ought to have access to appropriate treatment to enable them to feel comfortable in their own skin.
But to assume that, for example, an anatomical male who feels most comfortable expressing 'femininity' as it's understood in our society must therefore change his body in order to avoid a mismatch between his sex and his 'gender' - that is absolutely upholding and reinforcing stereotypical assumptions about "right" ways for male and female humans to exist.
Sarah Blaquiere I do not place the blame of gendered expectations on a particular group of people. They're quite universal and some people impose them on themselves/others more than others. The point I was trying to make was that trans people don't all conform either and our existence is not a result of them, nor are we exceptionally guilty of perpetuating them.
Who is saying one person's identity means everyone must identify the same way if they have similar expression? Who says a feminine man must transition? If you listen to trans people you'll find that nobody is saying that. It's ridiculous. You seem to have a very basic misunderstanding of what being trans is. Gender expression does not equal gender identity, even if that can be one component or sign of it. A feminine man is a man if he *identifies as such*. If he doesn't, he's not. It's that simple.
I assume we agree that strict gender expectations are not a good thing? Well, whether someone is trans or not should be irrelevant. I was assigned female at birth but do not identify as a woman. I don't think it's too much to ask that my identity be respected and I will not be addressed as "she" (just like I'm guessing you wouldn't like to be addressed as "he") regardless of whether I'm on hormones or had surgery yet or am even going to. I do appreciate that you at least recognise that proper treatment should be available... Also, it's a fact that if I were to put on a pink, frilly dress, I'd *generally* be seen as even less of a man than a cis man who does that, because I apparently have something to prove... You see what I mean? I'm not entirely opposed to wearing makeup or high heels but that might not look good when seeking that treatment. Of course my gender identity isn't my entire identity (duh) but it's not unimportant. You'd understand if your womanhood was constantly questioned and you were seen as a man 27/7.
Nobody is forcing you to identify as anything based on how girly or tomboyish you are and I'd bet a lot that us trans folk are less likely to uphold old fashioned gender expectations. A lot of us want everyone to be treated equally regardless of their sex. I dislike it when gender is treated as entirely a social costruct. To me it is more of an intuitive knowledge of what I'm meant to be. That doesn't match my sex, hence they are not the same thing. Naturally there is a social component, but most of that is just getting people to accept it and not constantly feed the dysphoria.
edit: I'd forgotten about this awful debate by the time you replied...
Can you imagine being a man? Could you accept being transformed into a man in the next second and having to live as a man for the rest of your life? Can you imagine how you'd feel if you were constantly called by a male name and refused a female one, forced to use men's toilets and treated as a pervert if you wanted to use women's, expected to wear men's clothes and to function sexually and romantically as a man?
If you couldn't stand this, you have a female gender identity.
Gender is synonymous with sex.
Stop being stupid.
Though, it's fun to watch you struggle with your fantasies.
Your identity is like your religious belief. You have every right to determine your own choices but no right to demand everyone else thinks the same.
& they are very very very boring & utterly self obsessed narcissists.
Great point Peter and one I completely agree with
Don't tell me what to think! You can think what you want. No one ever told you you could not identify as a woman or a man. But when you try to force it down our throats brutally, I'm not buying into it, man!
You can't misgender someone who has misgendered themself.
Your gender Identity is like you thinking you are human. People tend to care very deeply if other people recognize them as human or not.
Its weird to listen to the transman. Because what many transactivists do is tell people they are 'cis' and have a gender identity too (which most people reject we have) and to lesbians they are bigots for being same sex attracted only, so not to transwomen as they are bio male. He in fact says this cannot be done to trans people, but can be done to non trans people. This is problematic for many people. obviously. What trans activists have to understand is their reality cannot be imposed on others, especially women as we are most attacked of any oppressed group by trans activists. Its a mess and trans movement needs to sort themselves out. You cannot tell homosexual males and females we are transphobes for being attracted to same sex, not to a gender identity. That is homophobia.
+Slade L. Ah, Bronwyn Winter said it all!
If you deny the fact that you are sick, there is no way you will ever be healed.
A good point about individuals and societies as a whole.
The trans side never argued from logic or science. It was all pure emotions. I mean where does it stop? Can I identify as anything anytime and anywhere as I please? If Trump were to identify as a woman today would that make him officially the first female president? This is silly. There seems to be no limits to this madness.
Yes it's madness Jay.
Is not the purpose of society to create a happy people? This is a moral debate, we are arguing over whether or not to accept the identities of trans people. Of course emotion will be the central issue.
@@rugvedkulkarni1593 yes but emotions aren't based in facts or science. Try basing society on emotions see how that goes for you. Happiness is subjective.
Science is pro trans. Merck Medical, the APA, NHS, WHO, and AMA are all overwhelmingly pro-trans because it's only evidence-based conclusion.
Transphobes are emotional smoothbrained science deniers.
Shogun3739 lol! I’m gonna be a puppy tomorrow and it’s my RIGHT!!
Short answer: no. No one gets the right to dictate how they be identified by others. No one gets the right to compel speech of others. The trans advocates seem to be saying, "I reject your reality and substitute my own." That's fine and all, but you dont get to define reality for others. Speaking of tolerance, wouldn't it be nice if trans advocates practiced what they preached and were tolerant of the views of others, rather than demanding everyone view this issue the same way?
They call them cis male and cis female. I however will not call them cis male and cis female as to me thats insulting.
Yes!
They said gender identity is something only YOU can know. But still failed to define the "woman gender identity" and "man gender identity." You have to know the difference so you know which one you "feel like."
Exactly ! lol Oi Vey These people are hilarious, The transborg is strong in this one "Andrea "
Well if you have the desire for a female body when you don't have one you have a female gender identity. And if you have the desire for a male body when you don't have one you have a male gender identity. That's not difficult to understand.
And if you have the desire for a 20ft tall body? society must pretend that you're 20ft tall? What of desire for an octopus body? Should you be fed to some Japanese people like other octopus?
A desire for a 20 ft tall body is not encoded during gestation in the brain-stem in certain nerve centres due to hormonal influence.
Gender identity is.
Matthew McVeagh - ANYBODY is allowed to change their gender NOT just people with this 'encoded brain-stem' bs you pulled out your behind. Why shouldn't the same accommodations extend to people who identify as 20 ft tall? Why shouldn't a trans-height person have the right to force you into treating them as a giant?
You can't force me into Insanity. I
Will NEVER ACCEPT THIS MADNESS!
Paul McCarthy same
Such madness that I don’t feel like a boy and I feel more like a girl and I think I would be more comfortable as a girl!Such insanity that I’m feeling dysphoric and I want to be a girl because I would feel more comfortable and happy.
@@Jay-oy1ld But you're not female, you'll never be female. So your "happiness" would only ever be an illusion. There's no such thing as "feeling like a man/woman". You are what you are. If you can't accept what you are, then how can you expect anyone to accept what you're not?
@@MysticDragonForce While you claim you guys know "basic biology" you should read advanced biology and realize that science actually supports us trans people
@@MysticDragonForce and since yall love sources for proof "Man/woman are terms that describe gender - they exist to denote the specific social behaviors, and roles individuals play in society, which makes gender a social construct. Human beings created gender by virtue of their shared understanding of the world.
Male/female are two biological sexes that individuals are born into - but sometimes, as an individual grows, they realize their gender identity is at odds with the sex they were assigned at birth, which means they are trans.
This realization is often accompanied by extreme unease with one’s body and gendered roles, which is known as gender dysphoria. According to the American Psychiatrist Association, a dysphoric individual will face severe mental health issues and negative self-image if they are forced to live with a gender identity they do not feel comfortable in. This is also why trans individuals have significantly higher rates of suicide." There you go
"Whenever you remove any fence, always pause long enough to ask yourself, 'Why was it put there in the first place?'" G.K. Chesterton, we have failed to recognize the latter and now we are left with the conundrum of trying to define what gender is
That's a thought-provoking quotation! Thanks for sharing it! I'm saving it on my computer.
Excellent quote/points!
Exactly. They are removing sensible boundaries.
@Madeline McPherson The things are the same in my view. Biological sex is your sex. You cannot socially construct a sex and call it a sex. You are using the wrong words and confusing people, but I do understand gender dysphoria which makes far more sense although I don't validate their conclusions.
👍
I am not erasing your identity, I am erasing your delusion.
In what way are 'transwomen' women when they refuse to accept all current definitions of the word?
this is a deconstructionist movement.it's goal is to confuse and obfuscate.
@Gauri Srivastava LOL. No bunch of men has the right to change the meaning of the word 'sex' or the meaning of the word 'woman'. Grow up lil one. No one cares about their bs.
So easy to forget that the only way you got on this planet was through the body of a woman, your own mother. Sure she'd be happy if she knew you were pretending men could magically change into women.
@@LeonieZurakowsky exactly! This whole trans movement mainstream is nothing but misogynist.
Bingo.
It’s a particular kind of mental illness to think that there’s even a need to debate this subject. Deluded people need help not affirmation.
seems like you are deluded and need help works both ways
No, we don't assume we know our chromosomal make-up on the basis of our "gender identity" - we assume it on the basis of our anatomy and overall bodily structure. Trans ideology is utterly dependent upon gendered stereotypes.
"Must" recognize? Yeah, I don't think so. I am not required to think anything, nor can any law be made to attempt to do so.
“No matter what it means to be a woman, it’s one thing to be a woman, and another thing to identify as a woman”.
Tomas
"There are no biological differences that hold true for all women and all men over the course of their lives." You know it all ends when lies are pedaled right at the very start.
Right? Even we have certain parts removed we still have other distinctly female parts. You can remove your uterus, fallopian tunes and ovaries and still have a vagina, labia, and clitoris. You can remove a woman's external parts and she still has the internal ones. Remove all the parts and she still has a 120 degree angle pelvis for birthing children rather than 90 degrees and a smaller heart and lungs than the average male. Even if her chromosomes aren't exactly xx due to disorders causing variations, she still hasn't got a y chromosome.
The only time a woman would have a y is if she had swyer syndrome and she would still have been born with at least some female reproductive parts, including a vulva and uterus. The condition is very rare and makes someone intersex not trans and the existence of intersex people doesn't mean that the biological woman is a myth. Just because all women are different doesn't mean a person without a single female sexual reproductive organ or biological sex characteristic is a woman. If you weren't born with either xx chromosomes or at least one female sexual reproductive organ, you aren't a woman. If you were born with at least one female biological sex characteristic, you are a woman. This affects our social conditioning and our life experience from birth to death and im tired of pretending that anyone can shed their social programming or societal expectations by changing clothes or that it doesn't reinforce stereotypes to claim that you're a woman because you do the things society labels as feminine.
I recognise Body Dysmorphia and Mental Illness.
No Problem whatsoever.
How does "the Ethics Center" feel about giving hormones to minors? Just curious. The American Academy of Pediatrics calls it child abuse. Are we to accept child abuse, too?
Annabel Lee are you sure? Last I checked they’re handing out hormones with out checks.
All of us go through the same childhood and sometimes switch roles when we do play...a female child who is a tomboy does not mean that she is gay or be identified as transgender. She just happens to prefer climbing trees, wrestling with boys, etc., as more fun than staying at home and playing with dolls, pretend cooking, etc. Or, a male child who plays wonderwoman, loves to cook, etc rather than being superman is necessarily gay or be identified as transgender. Actually, I personally know a childhood male friend who did like to play wonderwoman but is now a happily married heterosexual man and surprisingly has no gender identity-crisis. It is not ethical for parents and the doctor to take-out the decision of children as young as 4 years old or a teen-ager by starting on a faulty hypothesis psychotherapy and giving them hormones when these same children may have preferred not be messed-up when they finally reach adulthood or to a stage of mental maturity when they can make their own reasons and decisions. How about the children's rights? I agree with you, Annabel Lee, that this kind of social trend to give hormones to children is a form of child abuse. This could give these abused children a created identity - crisis and social dysfunction later on in their lives as compared just being left as they are, help them grow through the childhood crisis, and make their own decisions when these children finally reach maturity or adulthood.
The terrible fraud of 'transgender medicine Quentin Van Meter, MD, FCP is a pediatric endocrinologist who was in the Johns Hopkins Univ. Hospital group where "transgender medicine" was developed describes the lies, bad medicine, and fraud behind that movement. ruclips.net/video/6mtQ1geeD_c/видео.html
A Fellow of the American College of Pediatricians and the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists .
I used to respect trans ppl then I heard their vitriol
Giving hormones to children is child abuse!
It's all fine up to the point where government forces me to (pretend to) agree that John is Gillian and vice versa, or suffer the consequences.
I’m an accepting person But OMFG
The government is not forcing you, or Jordan Peterson to believe other than what you believe. That was all a figment of Jordan's overactive imagination. Bill C-16 was put into law to protect those who are transgender from harassment. That means, if they so desire, they can take Jordan Peterson to COURT for his horrible words such as the following. But even THEY don't seem to care enough to bother with his nasty disposition.
In January Jordan claimed on “The Joe Rogan Experience” podcast that being transgender is a result of a “social contagion” and similar to “satanic ritual abuse,” and suggested that acceptance of the trans community is a sign that “civilization’s collapsing.”
When I was young I met a patient who thought he was Napoleon. The staff in the hospital accommodated him because it kept him tranquil. However not one of them believed he was Napoleon and no one in their right mind did either. This nonsense today is akin to my story but we are all being asked to accommodate this outside the hospital. It leads to male sex offenders being admitted to womens prisons or taking the podium in womens sports. Its madness.
If you don’t want to conform to “gender norms” then don’t. You have that right because feminists fought for the right to completely ignore traditional gender roles. Nobody really cares what other people do and this isn’t actually about conforming or not conforming to gender roles.
This is about a very small group of radical activists in a small population category of people who either self identify or are diagnosed with a mental disorder, gender dysphoria, that want to change language in order to somehow force people to perceive them the way they want to be perceived and therefore possibly make them feel better. The problem is they want people to basically lie. They want people to say things that aren’t true and many people do, to be polite, to virtue signal or because people are afraid of retaliation or accusations. They also want access to spaces reserved to certain sexes and when we ignore this we just create a new problem.
I am willing to call anyone whatever pronoun or name they want, it doesn’t matter, on an individual level. But if I was a doctor or a biologist, it would matter because sex is real and a factor in medicine. So, there is a clear value to the biological sex categories of male and female. I can’t help but see there is kind of this prevailing practice now in western culture to just cater to any demands of these trans political activists in order to appease them or virtue signal or what have you, but are we really being responsible here? The radical trans activists don’t even agree or find consensus with the views of all trans identifying people. So, putting these far left ideologues on blast misrepresents the trans community. It’s not a monolith of people who feel the same way or hold the same definitions.
There is another clear problem inherently in the nature of radical trans ideas because they are ideological, not scientific, and they are also clearly incoherent and self contradictory. But that’s kind what you would expect from people who have a mental disorder based on sex/gender and their perception of themselves. They are having trouble here and I don’t say that to be mean but it is what it is and not confronting the truth always leads to bigger problems. According to the radical trans activists, anyone can claim any gender identity and everyone should affirm it, there are not specific traits necessary to define it. So, really, as gender identity, man and woman have no clear definition to the radical trans. It’s essentially, everyone is whatever they say they are.... Ok but why transition and what are you transitioning from and too? If you are just your gender identity I don’t see why your body needs to be changed. There is no rule that says if you feel a certain way you have to have a certain sex or body type, although we do have gender norms and stereotypes in our culture. Is conforming to gender roles or fitting in the cognitive motivation behind gender dysphoria? I’m not sure gender stereotypes are a healthy way to model yourself or even realistic and I could see why our novel and over the top gender standards could cause people to have a mental illness, this makes sense.
People who transition are clearly attempting to transitioning from one thing to the appearance of another thing and then pass as the other thing. We all get that, so what are they transitioning from and too? Well clearly they want to change their sex, but they can’t actually do that, so they can change the way they dress, get surgeries and take hormone therapy to take on the appearance of the opposite sex. Now, if sex isn’t real or defined then why are trans people so motivated to go through so much in order to take on the physical appearances associated with the opposite biological sex. This doesn’t match up to what the radical trans activists are saying, the rhetoric doesn’t make sense, it’s incoherent. The radical trans activists frankly don’t make sense and their tone is just too pushy and melodramatic.
Of course they deserve equal rights and respect but making them an authority on gender and biology is bat shit insane. It’s not good for them, it won’t solve their problems and it doesn’t benefit human civilization or science in any clear way.
This makes sense actually because they have gender dysphoria, they have a mental disorder associated with their perception of themselves which causes them to not accept their own body and to conclude they must change their appearance in order to match their feelings. But do feelings have anything to do with sex for most people? No, not really, I don’t think the vast majority of people ever think of themselves as having a gender identity. You are you, you have a personality and you have a body. If you try to fit in to cultural gender norms, that is about trying to fit in, that isn’t who you are, you are whatever you are.
If the concept of gender identity leads to people needing to have surgery, take hormones and force everyone around them to perceive them a certain way (this is also an impossible task), then maybe it’s not such a great concept.
I don’t want to stigmatize mental illness and that is not my intention but unfortunately certain things just need to be said, in the interest of truth. It doesn’t seem to make sense to put the people who are having a mental health issue related to sex/gender in charge of societies standards, definitions and values.
So, should radical trans people be the ones to define our civilizations language? No, that’s silly, but we should hear them out.
Here’s the thing, we have no use for categorizing individuals by “gender identity” or any other personality traits that can’t be quantified or observed in any way. It can’t even be done. If people can’t even define gender identity or agree that it exists then it’s obviously not a good candidate for the government to use to categorize human citizens. Biological sex is well understood as an essential part of our species, it also happens to be central to human reproduction. Biological sex is relevant to human medicine, it’s science, it’s tangible. There is no reason or benefit to anyone to push this stuff so hard.
“MUST”?
Be what you want to be but leave the children alone!
Cheers ✌🏼
This is the tragedy that showed me what this insane, horrific ideology leads to. This happened in my family. Two gay women adopted a baby boy. At the time, they "joked" that too bad it was a boy, and maybe they'd be lucky and he'd turn out gay. A year later one of these women decided to identify as queer and demanded everyone use they/them pronouns and no longer refer to her as a woman. A year after that, these women publicly announced on Facebook that the little boy they'd adopted, just 3 years old by this time, was a girl! Complete with new pronouns. Everyone on Facebook applauded their bravery and understanding and acted like something beautiful had happened. This is what this pathology leads to: child abuse masked as righteousness. Not only aren't they held to account, they're celebrated! Meanwhile, that poor little boy is sacrificed at the altar.
@@iuliairi that is so wrong, where is the law and his biological parents.
We'll just let you decide what they should be taught, right?
@@iuliairi You have a psychological problem.
Save the children - the poor and pure, helpless, impressionable children - the refrain of every reactionary bigot since the beginning of time.
Take part in perpetuating a delusion against the truth and actually science."Not on your nelly!"
If ‘recognition’ means that I must pretend that I believe that a man can magically change his sex to a woman just because he ‘feels’ like it then he is shit out of luck.
The problem is they don't just want acceptance. They want me to celebrate it. I will not do that. I do not celebrate schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, or even Downs Syndrome. All of these conditions will earn my sympathy, and my assistance in whatever capacity that takes. But I won't celebrate it.
First, schizophrenia is a mental disorder, multiple personality disorder is a dissociation, and Down’s syndrome is having an extra chromosome. Being transgender is an innate sense that contrasts one sex at birth. Why are you trying to compared all these different things as if they are all the same?
@@kimberlycarter369 I didn't say they were the same. I very clearly explained the commonality between them all in that I won't celebrate those conditions. Did you not read my whole comment?
@@kimberlycarter369 gender dysphoria is also a mental illness. Believing you are the sex you can never be is fundamentally, a delusional belief. Sex is by definition, an immutable trait. If you have XX chromosomes, you are female and XY determines maleness. This of course excludes the existence of inter-sex individuals, but in all such cases, the reason for them being intersex can be traced to an exact and deterministic malfunction in normal biological processes. Convincing yourself that this biological reality doesn't apply to you, is purely delusional. Believing you can extend that delusion to the rest of society is double-extra delusional.
One significant issue/problem with identification with a 'gender' rather than a 'sex' is that over time we've gained a better understanding that women aren't simply soft, feminine, caring and motherly, and men aren't simply aggressive, strong, etc etc. We've finally gotten to a place where most people reccognize men and women have a huge cross-over on nearly any category. Women and men can't be defined as a whole by nearly any description other than their genetics and sexual organs. This is a great leap forward for society. It's brought us a greater understanding of the vast ranges of possibilities in being either male or female. It's allowed us to accept those who don't fit the stereotypes foisted on us by previous generations' misconceptions of what it means to be a man or a woman. But the Gender movement in a serious way tears much of that hard fought progress apart by now claiming that someone who feels certain ways about themselves 'must' be respected as a gender of their chosing. This claim signifies that although someone might be a woman, she knows she's a man because she 'feels' a certain way. What then does that mean? Is there a way to 'feel' being a man? I thought people could be men or women and still be any number of things. If we accept that people of either sex can be whoever they are regardless of societal norms, then where does the idea come from that someone's personality or state of being in any way can prove, to them or anyone else that they have a 'certain' gender of either kind? It seems to me the people claiming that they are a gender other than that of their sex are claiming that men and women 'can' be defined and by the attributes they are claiming to possess. This is a step backwards.
Ok. I'm gonna read the whole thing...
Yes. Very true. All OF that
Very, very excellent points! Well said!
mikael qq
@Green Monster Can The boy felt something was wrong because he was still a boy. Removing the sex organ does not change the fact he was still a biological male. Its more than just your junk its in your DNA, and boys are already masculinized in the womb before being born.
Also that brain study you mention is very limited. And no they were not shown to be closer to the opposite sex but rather right in the middle. Also its just from a certain perspective since we are not even close to mapping the human brain, we are barely just scratching the surface. At best its a clue that there might be something there but premature to claim it as some kind of evidence for the claims of transgenderism.
But even if we have feminine and masculine brains then I say so what. We have always had men who were more feminine than most and women who were more masculine than most without claiming that means they actually are the opposite sex. I'm a gay guy myself and in my community you can find many gay men who have more feminine mannerism than most transwomen but are still perfectly happy with being men with penises. Same the other way around with masculine lesbians. You could argue transgenderism is in fact a form of conversion therapy for young gay kids since most children who question their gender grow out of it and turn out to be gay.
the first speaker (an obvious FtoM) is requesting she is addressed as a he, yet as soon as the camera is panned towards her, i can tell immediately the first speaker is a woman using testosterone. and so how is 99% of the otherwise normal population supposed to handle this situation in everyday life? of course we do a double take and of course we think its completely weird but now i'm a bully for even thinking that. and i'm supposed to hold all these reactionary feelings in check? but what about OUR FEELINGS AS WE GRAPPLE WITH THE MADNESS OF IT ALL? in this big push to normalise the absurd, are the natural feelings of the 99% now a criminal offence? we also have to think carefully about how to address this person so they are not upset, binary? fluid? they? non-binary? nongender? the whole thing's ridiculous, it's the tail wagging the dog. for every sane person watching this who disagrees with the 'sweetly aggressive' transgender agenda (for certainly there is one), lets all of us PRETEND we're fine with it all, let's all agree to participate in the sham and that way all of us can add to the falsity of it all. and the end result? everybody going about their business silently thinking this is complete bullshit but outwardly everybody saying, yeah, great, right on! of course there are human hurts here in spades but the whole politics of it all makes me want to reach for the sick bucket
All i heard were the same buzzwords as always. Diversity, tolerent etc etc. Self identification is already a right validation isnt.
What got me is the way they were saying cis people are choosing their identity too when they answer whether they're male or female. No, I'm not choosing how to identify, dude. I'm telling you what's on my birth certificate. The factual truth of my biology. It's not my identity. It's not how I identity. It's my biological sex. And yes, you can now go to the dmv and have yourself labeled how you identify, but before we allowed that, we based it on the birth certificate. No one pronounced us male or female at birth. They observed what we were from looking at our biological sex characteristics and that's how I knew I was female. Just because you would rather be a different sex than you are doesn't mean you aren't the sex that you were born as. You can choose to present however you want and take on any identity you want and I will respect it but that doesn't mean you get to pretend biological sex doesn't exist and eliminate the protections put into place to protect biological women.
It is also the transgendered community responsibility to make sure that they're not shoving it down the throats of society. I for one cannot accept something that's being perceived by me as a forced objective.
What? It is not the transgender communities responsibility to placate your fragile sensibilities. Trans people exist. Get over it.
Trans people are real and valid. Stop being a pathetic little crybaby about it and you'll think about it less. We're winning either way.
@@coffeecake141 Maybe in the fantasy land you're living in.
@@JTCT371 I can spend five seconds on Google and find an actual trove of overwhelming scientific support for trans people from countless reputable scientific bodies. You have nothing but emotive crying and denial on your side.
@@coffeecake141 care to share that proof
I can't believe there is a "Intelligence Debate" organized around the notion of accepting the wrong idea for society !
From now on, I’m telling the ATO that I identify as a person with zero taxable income.
When you get arrested, tell that bigoted judge to just let you live your truth already!
Society wants us to play make believe not me
It's not society. People think they have to back it because of claptrap about equality etc.
I have news for you pal. Society is make believe.
I'm done pretending gender is not arbitrary and acting as though people aren't free to interact with it however they want.
I'm done pretending trans people aren't an objective scientific reality, and like the people crying about trans people existing are smart or worthwhile enough have anything worth contributing to any discussion.
Thanks, it feels good accepting reality.
@@coffeecake141 none of that is objective reality. You’re a man or a woman based on sex, Judith Butler be damned.
You lost me at “must”
I was just thinking that
We must die...but other than that ...everything else is pretty much voluntary.
@@willcollier6623 It is given unto man once to live and then the judgment. I am sure that this trangender thing is against God as He made them male and female.
@@Rayblondie you are confused. We are in control of this world. We are in control of ourselves. Through Jesus, God has done all that He needed to do and all that He is going to do. Now it’s up to us...to get it right...or not.
@@Rayblondie correct and to say that He made you the wrong way is blasphemy.
I agree the most with the man that has white hair on the end of the table there. You can't claim whatever you want.
Did he put his white hair on the end of the table?
The position is basically, "You have to accept as reality whatever I decide to dress up as at any particular moment."
The position is: "you should refer to people how they want to be referred to as a basic courtesy" Would you call the child of an courtesy parent not their real child because the are not biologically related. No. It is called having manners.
You are a disgrace to Jack Burton....
@@JohnGrove310 and gender studies is a disgrace to academia.
@@rugvedkulkarni1593 manners is a two way street. If you want to change norms, you should expect resistance.
@Rugved Kulkarni
My pronouns are god/master
That’s how I self identify.
I would like you to address me as such.
Will you do so?
I'm trans-rich, even though I'm broke. Rich people are depriving me socially, and not accommodating my dysphoria, by giving me their money
Me too. I'm fiscally dysphoric... Society refuses to hand over the dosh which is discrimination.
Any biologists in the house??? Nope
haha well put. you summed it up. the whole gender debate has no referrence to biology... the speakers crudentials are largely jus their own experiences and feelings
No need for biology. An illiterate person knows what a man and woman is
@@ifrahalkaf4549 because we understand basic human biology....
well isn't this subject post-science??...lol if you bring science into it..then these people are mentally or physiologically ill .
Well, im not a biologist but i believe in biology. Does that count? "Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina!" ~Little kid from Kindergarten Cop.
People shouldn't be legally forced to recognize individual self identifications because that would be thought policing.
What should be forced is equality under the law. No one should be discriminated solely because of gender identity.
But the important thing is what kind of people we are and how we treat each other. If I see that my behavior hurts a person's feelings I'll change because I don't want to hurt people who did nothing wrong to me. It's about who I am, my dignity and self respect. Personally if you're bullying people because of their gender identification, you have no respect from me even if we ideologically agree. Bully is a bully.
That doesn't mean that I won't criticize various ideas of gender identity I don't agree with.
A woman feeling uncomfortable in a female changing room is not bullying.
No you should be confrontational with people that have "some" ideas. We would never have gotten out of religious obscurantism if it was not for people criticising and making hurtful statements towards religion. This idea that you need not to hurt other people's feelings is utter BS. There are things that are far more important than your audience's feelings and you should have the balls to say them
@@ZipMapp
Did you read my last sentence?
@@ImplosiveCatt Being confrontational about an idea more often than not involves hurting peoples feelings. If that's not your experience you're not being confrontational AT ALL
@@ZipMapp
People's feelings get hurt all the time, no matter what was the reason. That's not what I'm talking about.
It is important to put criticism into perspective. Criticism can be good in the right hands and very harmful in the wrong hands because the most successful lies is at least 90% truth.
What I mean by that is that if you're smart enough, you can just use the same (90% truth) mantra to prove your point. CNN and Fox are doing that all the time. Every mainstream media is doing that.
The bottom line is that noone is interested in constructive and inspiring conversation.
While we're having fun in chess play, people are suffering.
When someone declare we must regognise males who feel like women as women, what they really say is: "we don't recognise women anymore".
Because being a woman is not a felling. It's a biological reality. I can be completely different from a other woman, we may have nothing in commun, except from one: we are female human beings.
We need to regonize transpeople for who they are and respect them. But a man is not a woman and vice versa. We live in a society where we can do everything we want or almost. No need to "be a man" to go to work or "be a woman" to raise a kid anymore.
If a adult want to pass as the other sex, why not. But we don't have to pretend it's true and place a man in a women prison at the expense of women safety and dignity. Nor permet men to compete in women sports. Nor changing the meaning of words like "women" and "lesbian" in order to please some men.
Didn't the against win the argument? Since they changed more people's minds? Why did the moderator say the For won the debate? Doesn't he understand how a debate works?
The moderator had a bias towards the For side from the very beginning judging by his tone.
Lol, "you are more than your body parts"...but if you decide you don't like them cut them off because also, you are your body parts. Wtf is happening
Electric Blue cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias
The winner should be based off the change in opinion, not the overall percentages. obviously the crowd was overwelmingly supportive of the idea in the 1st place, even though populations as a whole would vote this motion down
Exactly. But having the Philosophy Professor on the panel was cheating. Ideologues convince by force and emotion, academics by reasoning.
Clearly, people who are undecided or predisposed to changing their mind were more likely to be convinced by reasoning than emotion.
@@diranshouse7061 Why would any sane person abandon reason.
Yeah, I thought it was! Or is that just the U.S. version of Intelligence Squared that declares the winning side to be the side that had the greatest positive movement for their position? A +20% is a big jump in opinion, and the pro side was DOWN 11%. That's quite a shift.
The winner IS based on the change in opinion.
The questions shouldn't be so rigged from the start. IQ2 is terrible about this. Debates often hinge on words like "always," "never," "absolute," "best," "must," etc.
i'm not your slave that i MUST think as you do, you want to be delusional, go ahead, but i'm not participating in your delusions
Your freedoms end where mine begin. I’ll address you as I wish.
Excellently put
That this even needs to be discussed is tragic. God help us.
You don't change a language for 2% of the population, that's common sense. No one said you need to be a caricature man or woman. You can be a linear interpolation of the two if you want. But don't start to bullshit with a new axis, it doesn't make any sense
It is very tragic and sick isn't it. It's just poison being poured out from the microphone. The only way is not to listen to the drivel and untruths.
@Lizzy MH Less?
There's no god and gender is a social construct. Have fun with the future losers
@@coffeecake141 There's no proof of existence of any god nor is there any proof of the nonexistence. Gender is not a social construct, it's the behavioral patterns that describe how the 95% middle quantile behaves which is .9 correlated with sex
so if I identify as a dog, can I just poop where ever I want?
Chris Boe no because sjws are unable to apply their outrageous logic to other aspects of life
as long as someone picks it up for you with a little plastic baggy
Sure!
As long as it's within the confines of your cell in the mental hospital
@@josephsdimension looks like you are.
*I thought it very telling, that the only speakers who were heckled and abused by audience members shouting out, were the two speakers on the right, who were against the motion being put forward.*
*I also thought it interesting, that the American film producer, accidentally let his/her male voice slip out. Listen to the delicate and feminine = almost timid voice he/she **_'puts on'_** initially at **24:32** then listen to his/her obviously natural, deeper, and far more masculine voice, when he/she interrupts the lady in green at **44:54**. The difference is quite marked.*
*In a true democracy, the many DO NOT change in order to accommodate the few. When transgender people become the majority of the 7.93 billion population of the world, I may acquiesce to their DEMANDS. Until then, I'll continue calling people born male, boys or men, and people who were born female, girls or women thanks very much!*
At the 29:00 mark, we're treated to an analogy of left-handedness/right-handedness, and my first reaction was "That's hardly analogous to the ideology of genderism" but the more I thought about it, the more applicable such a bizarre analogy seemed. Self-identification applied to maleness/femaleness is just as preposterous as when applied to right-handedness or left-handedness. You don't _identify_ as being right or left handed, you simply *are* right or left handed.
I happen to be right-handed. Let's suppose that from the moment I initially recognized this about myself, I responded by really *really* wanting to be left-handed because left-handedness deeply resonates with me and my self-schema. Thus, I choose to self-identify as a left-handed person who was simply born in the wrong body (a body geared toward right-handedness).
Should society encourage my sloppy thinking by telling me that I am _indeed_ left-handed because it's what I'd like to be? Or should I just grow up and get over myself? I vote for the latter. Being right/left-handed isn't important to begin with and any importance I place on it would be driven by arbitrary psychological factors. Ditto with gender (masculinity/femininity performance).
+AntiBullshitMan
Gender (sex) is not an act, for trans people. It's the biological brain, in mismatch or poor match with the rest of the body.
Your thought experiment doesn't work because being right-handed is identical to feeling right-handed. You don't have a different "right hand" than someone else who is right-handed, barring some deformity which is not a relevant part of the discussion.
+rg0057 "Gender (sex)"
Right there, terminological sloppiness. The two words are not synonymous & use of parenthesis to assert otherwise is odd. Let's use two different words and pretend they have interchangeable definitions. Yeah, no. Gender and sex are different words for a reason.
Gender denotes femininity & masculinity _performance_ while 'sex' consists of biological maleness & biological femaleness (& rarely intersex). Anatomically speaking, these descriptors are nonnegotiable, which is why individuals who feel terribly uncomfortable with their own bodies can be said to suffer from anatomical/bodily dysphoria, _not_ gender dysphoria. A person who enjoys performing femininity (a type of gender role) can do so regardless of the shape/type of their anatomy. The only way to object to this is through appeals to tradcon style genderism; the belief that anatomy & personality are invariably interlocked. This view is absurd as it entails that (1) males who aren't masculine & females who aren't feminine all have malfunctioning brains and that _that_ explains their gender nonconformity, and (2) only intersex individuals can be expected to enjoy being gender-less or androgynous... because their anatomy _is_ their behavior. Somehow.
Biological & physiological factors effect human behavior to the extent that (1) different individuals have different levels of testosterone and estrogen, (2) reproductive roles are a thing. This excludes roughly 80% of the "gender roles" transgender ideology has people believing they can't perform unless their anatomy lines up with their notions of gender. (that, plus autogynephilia).
If performing femininity is inborn rather than learned, every tomboy in history would "feel trapped in the wrong body" but they don't. Feeling like you were born in the wrong _body_ means you suffer from _bodily_ dysphoria. This is unfortunate, and such individuals deserve our compassion & understanding, but uncritical lib-progs associate it with gender roles because Gender Essentialism (a deeply conservative view of masculinity & femininity) is still entrenched in most western societies.
If it's just you working out whether you are right or left handed, I don't particularly care. But you then claim access to something previously precious or essential to the left handers only etc etc it's no longer just a matter of personal preference.
Why does Andrea James sound like some cult/religious leader? Why does she talk like that?
the answer is in the question
That's a man's idea of what a woman should sound like.
Appeal to emotion rather than reason.
He downloaded the MJ voice box when he picked his AI vocal coach ,he went straight for the Heehee shatone
A "debate" stating that society MUST such and such is a blatant non debate.
The against side won the debate. They had the biggest swing in numbers
This was a sorry excuse for a debate. There was hardly any chance for the opposing side to comment on each other's points and John Haldane was the only one who actually focused on the topic of the debate.
Judging from the remarks in these comments the opinion of the audience in this debate is way out of line with the general public's opinion.
the Against won the debate. .. ...
The woman says "i work with transgender teens and i swear upon God *place hand on chest, that it is not a one night fase, that they are like this since forever" forever? A teenager? They sure lived a lot. A couple of years before forever they used to be children and children believe in Santa Claus. I wanted to be Peter Pan not Wendy when i was 10... A lot of gay kids love to dress as girls, today they grow very delusional thinking they can be happier as trans. There is no such a thing of being happier as you make your body disfunctional. I see a lot of sadness in the solitary narcissism of the transgender people, especially the autogynephillic ones, and i think the fierce activism is a way to cope with that pain they constantly feel, not inflicted by society as they preach, but inflected on themsleves by themselves.
My daughter of 8 wants to be neytiri from avatar. Should i chemically color her skin blue and cut one finger from each hand and surgically attach her a tail.
How many very young vulnerable and impressionable children are going to be subjected to this madness with potentially damaging psychological and physical effects for years to come and nobody will be held to account for their suffering?!
This is the tragedy that showed me what this insane, horrific ideology leads to. This happened in my family. Two gay women adopted a baby boy. At the time, they "joked" that too bad it was a boy, and maybe they'd be lucky and he'd turn out gay. A year later one of these women decided to identify as queer and demanded everyone use they/them pronouns and no longer refer to her as a woman. A year after that, these women publicly announced on Facebook that the little boy they'd adopted, just 3 years old by this time, was a girl! Complete with new pronouns. Everyone on Facebook applauded their bravery and understanding and acted like something beautiful had happened. This is what this pathology leads to: child abuse masked as righteousness. Not only aren't they held to account, they're celebrated! Meanwhile, that poor little boy is sacrificed at the altar.
Ok there is the adams apple
The testes the body hair and the DNA
Does a dress and some silicon make him less of a bloke?
They are not tearing the binary they are reinforcing the binary,,,,, they transition as exactly what society expects what men and woman should be!!
We are told we ALL have a gender identity. So how on earth can rejecting the idea of gender identity be considered intolerant if we ALL have it??...It's like me being accused of prejudice against humans because I decided to no longer identify as human.
And who told you that? What is even a gender identity? We all have ...? No. We have something called sex. It is the way our body is shaped and function. There are stereotipes related to sexes, but one can decide to not conform to them. Gender my a**, aka, John Money, human experiments, teens hysteria and the church if genderology.
Why don't we have lofty ideals about violating women's right to single sex spaces? Women's right to be free from male violence and lechery never gets addressed.
That was an interesting discussion. That a reasonable explication of some of the basic issues was so enlightening may be why so much effort has been put into stopping such discussions from happening.
John Holden had the most reasoned and rational view, imo.
And judging from the results...the majority is too indoctrinated to listen to reason.
Debating gender insults the resiliency of human dignity and spirit. Existing laws facilitate freedom of expression. To avow another’s happiness is not society’s duty.
I can't see how debating gender insults anything.
Matthew McVeagh, yes the word “debate” doesn’t adequately clarify the point that there is no lawful necessity for the debate.
To be or not to be, is and will hopefully be decided well into the future by the individual.
Let’s give thanks to all those threatened, ostracized, tortured, and martyred for Western individual freedoms and dignity. Yay Gay Pride!
There is no lawful necessity for most debates; there doesn't need to be. You don't make any point or answer what I said.
Matthew McVeagh, the insult is about the suggested necessity that some people need additional laws not only to be validated but to achieve some unknown criteria of happiness.
This is nonsensical bec the person/s making the gender claim exist and anyone challenging it confirms that existence. Furthermore, debating whether or not happiness is the responsibility of the other is a horrific nonvalidating proposal.
My whole entire being and happiness awaits upon your approval. If not, then the law will make it so. Now, that’s happiness.
You don't make a lot of sense... things without minds can't be insulted. Trans people need laws to protect them from other people's prejudice, it doesn't have to do with their happiness. Gender and sex are things defined in law, besides their natural and cultural existence.
I don't see what the existence of a person making a gender claim has to do with whether the claim is valid or not. It's also ridiculous to say that debating anything is 'horrific': you have an extreme line in hyperbole.
Not to mention that self-diagnosis of a psychological condition is subjective and subject to error.
Just because you feel something is the case, doesn't mean it is.
Transphobic = truth sayer
Psh! If transwomen are women, then the word "trans" won't be there.
The problem I see is when someone comes out as a transwoman, HE expects people to say yes to everything HE wants and if you say no, HE'LL cry out discrimination then call you transphobic.
If I had a Nickle for every gender.......I'd have 10 cents.
Intersex people have entered the chat
@@basedchimera5859 intersex people are still either male or female but have a variety of Phenotypic expressions for primary and secondary sexual characteristics. The term intersex is archaic and should be done away with because people read it and think it's between sexes when it's not.
No ! You would have an awful lot of money! There are 70+ genders and any amount of combinations of any of these, so any amount of genders.
You cannot demand that other people subscribe to your subjective perspective of yourself. It’s bizarre that a person who is born male should believe they are the ultimate arbiter of what being a woman really means .
Thank you Bronwyn Winter, all of that.
+ally Dee
On this we both agree. A number of radical feminists have been censured recently and I think its atrocious. How can anybody hope to build consensus by gagging people with differing ideas. If folks are so thin skinned that they can't bear to hear opposing views, they're going to paint themselves into far tighter corners than whether or not the general public is willing to accept their "gender". Truth is, the gender community is tiny, even compared to the LGB part of LGBT... This is about human beings living together, putting personal interest aside for the greater good, and coming up with ways to embrace and accept human diversity. Women represent half the population. Their needs must come first.
On the flip side however, I don't agree the fundamental problem is gender. That's like blaming skin color for racism. The problem isn't gender, all primates display sexually specific behavior. The problem is and has always been irresponsible male dominance and competition leading to social structures that reducing women into property and men into human doings perpetuating a machine that only serves the meager few at the top. One of my favorite links;
riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2009/06/07/a-glimpse-into-a-world-where-females-and-non-alpha-males-are-the-socially-dominant-genders/
In 1995, the Women Leaders in the world convened to look at the biggest problems facing humanity, and over population was identified as one of the most critical problems. They came up with a plan that would have placed a ceiling on human population at 7,000,000,000 (ironically our current population), and then a slow and sane reduction by natural attrition to under 1,000,000,000 over the next century. All it required was;
1. All people including women receive an education.
2. All people including women receive adequate medical treatment.
3. All women have access to contraception and have the right to have only as many children as they choose.
The first item allows women to have autonomous lives as something other than breeding machines. The second allows children to live so a mother and father can have fewer than 10 children and still have children that reach adulthood to support them in their old age. The third gives women choice. No sane woman wants to give birth to 10 or more children. A woman's body isn't designed to drop litters.
The men of the world promptly ignored the women. We now stand at 7,000,000,000 and if we instituted these changes today, the peak human population would be 10,000,000,000. We teeter at the brink of disaster and still the men in power continue as though nothing is wrong with the way they manage the world. Because it suits them.
This is the nature of this failed system and gender base discrimination is just one of many aspects. The issue is the inhumane use of human beings. The issue is primate sexual behavior allowed to run its ultimate course empowered by human technology. It is inherently self destructive. A revolution is called for.
Not at the expense of heterosexual women, gays, or lesbians, who are those where sex matters as a matter of their essential definition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just watched this from start to finish several times over the last few weeks and I am curious how anyone watching this can come to the conclusion those arguing for gender identity put forth a more convincing case?
Bronwyn Winter compares trans-allied cis women to Nazi collaborators.
The results say more about how the question was posed; by using words like "always" and "never" it skews the outcome considerably.
No one MUST recognize anything about anybody. Be who you are and don't force anything on anyone.
Yeah, like for example, I don't have to recognize that you are human. You may think that you are human and thats fine by me. Just don't expect me to play along with that fantasy.
@@adenjones1802 but being human is not a fantasy. That is even more unrealistic than trans women are women.
@@fromireland8663 Well that certainly is begging the question now isn't it.
@@adenjones1802 yep!
@@fromireland8663 Ok then let me ask you your favorite question. What is a woman? Also, why are transwoman not that?
My father had his left arm tied down to force him to righthanded.1935 my grandpa beat the hell out of that principble.
The problem is the laws that trans women want to change will directly affect the laws women and gays fought and suffered for to earn. If gender doesn't matter then laws protecting gender issues are not needed. If sexuality is a preference , not an orientation then gay rights are not needed. If being gay is just a kink and being female is just personal expression then there's no need to protect them as a class.
Wow! Like women don't experience high levels of intimidation, harassment, and discrimination! When has anyone cared?
Gender Identity is a crock.
Is your point that if men haven't cared about women's suffering, women shouldn't care about trans people's suffering?
Matthew McVeagh transwomen need to stop the harrassment, name calling, no platforming, etc of women.
The fact that there is a "winner" in this turns it into a contest. Wrong.
What's wrong with a contest?
If it's simply a normal trait, where aren't there more, A; and B, why is such extensive surgery and treatment and coaching required to effect that trait?
I have excepted transsexuals for decades. I do not however support the transgender ideology. Leave kids to grow up and decide as adults what they need to do. I am very close to this topic personally as a lesbian who wanted to be a boy for many years.
I grew out of it.
Sorry, chromosomes are binary.
😒 i don't know about anybody else, but i'm just sick of em' altogether... i mean, what the hell do they want?... what's the plan, to annoy people to death?... call yourself whatever, slice/inject whatever, live however, but leave people and their kids alone...
simple...
While the motion passed, it seems clear to me the debate was won by those opposing. Despite there being 20% up for grabs as 'undecided', and starting with a whopping 76%, they went backwards more than the undecided did, which means some of those who initially voted for them abandoned them.
The reason for that, I suspect, is John Haldane brought the training of a highly accomplished philosopher to the motion itself and honed in on the "Society must recognise" issue.
I'll bet that gave a lot of people pause for thought, even a partisan crowd predisposed to be sympathetic to trans issues.
I happen to think he's correct, and the only one that brought anything of significance to consideration of the motion as it was stated.
On the strength of the arguments alone, gender critical stomped transgender activists unquestionably. This seems like a stupid way to gauge the outcome of a debate.
It's now approximately 7 years since this video aired, in that time I've rarely seen any debate of this type on this issue. I have seen a lot of attempts to deplatform and bully people especially women with gender critical views.
I can't help but think trans activism knows it relies on emotive argument and a plea for acceptance and "be kind", while at the same time encouraging people to punch terfs, harass women, get them sacked from their jobs, shout them down and avoid debate because their position doesn't stand up to rational debate.
I say this knowing that there are legal protections for trans people and I'm glad that there are, it should be no reason for discrimination or abuse but at the end of the day no one has to accept that a trans woman is a woman or a trans man is a man. How another adult wants to live their live that doesn't harm another human being is entirely up to them and if identifying as another gender is what they need to be happy or feel to be their genuine self then by all means let them live their lives as much as we can. But that does not mean males identifying as women should have automatic entry into women's spaces, women's sports or that anyone has to recognise them under fear of being called a bigot.
@@Malky5279 Given he wrote it in 1932, I wonder what book Aldous Huxley might have written were he to use the same title of his deservedly famous work but apply it from today's various situations?
"Brave New World" indeed.
@@Malky5279 p.s. I forgot to add that I often find it very interesting when a comment comes along to something I'd written years ago, and yours is no exception.
Cheers
@@steeltrap3800 When the video was uploaded it wasn't even remotely on my radar as an issue. I'm in Scotland and it was only really in 2022 when self ID legislation was proposed here that it gained headlines that it prompted me to look deeper into it and try and come to an informed opinion on a subject that seemed alien and until then slightly esoteric. I'd no idea how much trans activism had taken root in some areas of the world like Canada, my instinct was absolutely live and let live but the demands of trans activism has gone well beyond that and when you see what women like Maya Forstater and Kathleen Stock had to endure it was really eye opening.
I am a white woman,I want to identify as a black 80 year old man,if they can identify as a woman why can't I identify as someone who is not my race, sex or age?this is how silly it is getting
A man with two ovaries and a uterus is a woman
Since when gender of a person depends on his "feeling/opinion" about his gender?
One day - one gender, next day another, because person changed his "feeling/opinion"...
I keep looking at the picture of the person I clicked on to get to the video and keep asking myself: who wants to spend all that $$, and go through all the hassle just to become/look like an "ugly woman" ??
The first speaker attempts to confuse the argument: "when people refuse to recognize trans identities they're not just sayiung WE DON'T THINK THAT THIS TRANS WOMAN IS A WOMAN, what they are saying is WE KNOW THAT THIS TRANS WOMAN IS REALLY A MAN. So they're not just saying I REFUSE TO RECOGNIZE YOUR IDENTITY, they're actually saying I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU DO WHO IT IS THAT YOU REALLY ARE. All of my life I could detect who was a man and who I wanted to date without looking at his genitals and I never got it wrong, why they want us to start "guessing" now? The OBVIOUS thing is not up for discussion, period. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. No man or woman is none, or both. This you are trying to push is a delusion and thankfully most people are SANE and won't play along. You want to be called "HER"? We can do that, out of empathy. You want to invade women spaces, women sports? HELL NO! You need to get it in your head that you can't and you won't control logic. YOU need to come to terms with this fact:
IDENTIFYING AS A WOMAN IS NOT THE SAME AS BEING ONE.
Argument against the motion: the emperors new clothes
Yes the empirical clothes , naked
It's such a silly, childish idea, not even worth considering. That it poses such horrifying dangers to our children is surreal.
I feel that regular people are being pushed into a corner and scolded for not going along with this insane narative. Men are men and women are women ,this will never change. You can not be what you are not.
I’m very concerned than a small population of people are insisting the rest of the population bow down to their beliefs
24:24 - up is down and down is up. I've been lectured on the correct way to think about this by 'transwomen', in the mainstream media, on a near-daily basis since 2014. Including this IQ2 debate, I can count TWO instances where skeptics of transgender ideology have been given an opportunity to present a contrary viewpoint, and the other was the Doctor Drew Show episode on which the infamous "Zoey Tur" incident occurred.(/-DE_WOCHITk?t=5m19s)
www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/body-dysmorphic-disorder/home/ovc-20200935
JCB, yep, cancel the debate and change the language to trans-activism language e.g. "cis". It's pretty ludicrous how so many are taken in by this.
People shouldn't be forced to pretend that men can be women and women can be men
Gives some the excuse to go in a ring with a woman and mess her up.