WATCH exclusive bonus content where *Mary* answers audience questions. CLICK the link: triggernometry.locals.com/ CHAPTERS 👇 00:00 Intro 01:44 The Central Case of Mary’s New Book 12:53 What Does Feminism Mean Today? 17:30 The Unspoken Costs of the Sexual Revolution 26:00 Are Women Waking Up to These Issues? 31:56 The ‘Cyborg Revolution’ 46:15 The Argument Against the Contraceptive Pill 53:32 How the Left React to Mary’s Case 1:08:05 What’s the One Thing We’re Not Talking About?
fascinating discussion. Thank you! we must get the bougie girls to wake up to biological reality. Hit em with the REALITY of biosphere collapse and climate crisis. A REAL calamity for them to focus their drama on. And start telling the bougie boyz, NO!
Not as smart as she thinks she is, smart though. For one, if you're going to talk about the archetype of the porn actress, name it as an archetype rather can casually speaking for millions of women. For two, how is the "coersion" for women in porn different than the coersion for men to do literally any job? These people are trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater as surely as the feminists. You fix coersion in pornography the same way you fix it with work in general - an economic floor for all citizens based on GDP that in America would look like 12k year ubi replacing welfare plus an available to all Easy Jobs program, 23k a year 32 hrs a week of self driven socially positive work (reading, writing, planting trees, learning math, etc) that is publicly reported and doubles as both accreditation builder and public resume.
Totally agree: almost all women have always worked. In the rural areas, in the urban workshops and also in factories since early industrialisation. The idea that women "entered the working force" after WWII is only true for the Western upper middle class
I agree. It was also technology that encouraged women to work outside the home, the invention of the modern washing machine for example saved women from two days of solid work within the home, just to have clean clothes.
Lots of women worked during WW2 doing jobs which men had done before being conscripted. I've heard it argued that the baby boom was encouraged to free up jobs for returning soldiers.
My great grandfather didn't want his wife to work because he saw it as difficult and dangerous for her. His parents were slaves and I that was what made him to think that way. So he had his own business so he could allow my great grandmother to work from home.
I was a stay-at-home mother of 4 children & also home educator. One aspect of being at home is isolation because the houses around us would empty in the morning with people going off to work. It is terrible that people buy expensive houses that are empty so much of the time. We had a small house & used it all day to the max. We had no holidays & no luxuries but those things are not important. It would be so much nicer if we had communities around us & we could support each other as used to be the case . Then every one is valued & integrated.
Many things that are taboo about what this woman terms “feminism of care,” particularly within conservatism: 1. It is the hardest work you will ever do, physically and psychologically. I could tell you straight off this woman is not a mother. Just as out of touch as any other academic. 2. The suffragettes were pro-life Republicans. Eventually, they were shafted for the black male vote. This is sad, as these women were all abolitionist Christians as well.
My mother and her six siblings grew up on a farm during the Great Depression. The boys worked in the fields with their father, while the girls worked in and around the home with their mother. Everyone had a job, and the success or failure of the farm depended everyone doing their job.
I am not from the US but I live in the south of Europe. Back in the WW2 years when my grandma was a kid, she was in a family consisting of sisters. Everyone was expected to do everything to help family survive. There was no luxury for having distinct roles for males being out in the fields and females at home. In all eras, the key word is 'survival' not 'this is my role and I only have to do that'.
Now days people have 2 kids and a home full of appliances. These days stay at home moms aren't spending their days mothering once the kids are grown, they maybe mother for 20 years, with a life expectancy of 80, that's a nice easy ride. Which is exactly what many people think. They don't want to be looked down upon, I understand why, but if all you do once the kids leave is cook for one man, it doesn't leave much for others to look up to.
Yeah, it was called teamwork. Which is what families, marriages, local communities, and so on, used to be based on. Enter the century of self, the narcissistic age, and we see the breakdown of all of those, along with common purpose and meaning.
When she speaks about elite women not being able to imagine bad actors, it rings true to me. I had a conversation with my sister in law about this topic and pointed out that some of the men, not all, but some of them are acting out of hatred for women. She really thought I was being a low class mouth breather. I believe Mary is correct in her assertion that there are many pushing for this movement who are naive about the cost to women not in the higher rungs of society. the sad part is, they can't be told, in my experience there is no convincing them. A trucker honking his horn and screaming "hey baby!" is a misogynist, but a man who changes his identity to a female, climbs into a boxing ring with a woman, and breaks her skull, is deemed progress.
Right. I think Selfishness it the pivotal issue. Too selfish to concern anyone else.. too narrow minded to look at any topic other than the way it impacts them at the moment. Finally the results of Feminism is coming back to bite Women.. and only now Women care??? Fun Fact: Women did this to themselves.. all while DESTROYING what took men 100s of years to build. Women are DESTRUCTIVE in their Selfishness. They deserve far, far, worse than they are getting! Feminism has killed, ABORTED, more people than Hitler did by a long long shot... Feminism has DESTROYED more families as well. Finally it is coming back to bite Women and only now Women are speaking out ?? SELFISHNESS to the extreme!!
Again, the road to hell is always paved with good intentions. This rings true for everything and everyone. Those who live more by empathy, and by proxy push their idea of empathy on others, over any form of selfishness create hell.
No. Wrong. Incorrect. Men withdraing from women is a means of Self-Protection. It sounds like she is projecting her own tactics onto others. So, lets do a quick analysis of Women's rights movement versus Men going their own way: the Women's Right movement exposed Women as being Narcissistic Beasts at a street level (attention seeking, gas-lighting, and bullying, as well as killing off their own babies for the sake of convenience.) As well as exposed Women as being seriously Machiavellian (dark triad) at a Political & Society level. NOW, compare Women's personality traits to that to the males in the Men' Rights movement where: Men are going their own way MGTOW, they are Going John Galt, are on a Marriage Strike, and many are not dating or interacting w Women at all -- these practices that men are using are called Avoidance or "Gray Rock tactics" , purely passive tactics, non-interactive tactics, that one is counseled to use when faced with Narcissistic people .. or to use when when interacting with any Dark Personality disorders -- Yes, I am saying that the majority of Narcissistic and Dark Personality people are Women .. and that Men are the opposite: Men are the kind and generous ones, who are withdrawing as a means of Protecting themselves from the EVILS of Dark personalities as well as the Legal system and Political system those BEASTS have twisted the once fine county into. Label me: John MGTOW Galt because Leftism, Marxism, Feminism, and the entire system doesnt deserve honorable men.
It’s up to a woman not to fight the man in the ring, but if she chose to fight him she better be ready for what’s coming. No one is forcing anyone to participate in something they aren’t comfortable, the majority are doing things because of money and prestige.
Watching Constantin and Francis listening intently, asking good questions and not talking over their guest is a sign of really good interviewing skills
I agree, they probably don't agree with her too much, but they are still interested...was thinking that too at least. Definitely a pretty interesting point of view for sure.
@@lorrainericardo8680 well let's just appreciate that Konstantin didn't try to scold her for being too direct and tell her to be nice like he always does with Posie Parker when she says things he doesn't have the balls to say
Satay at home moms that really throw themselves at it are a threat to commodity. I started a garden and canned massive amounts of food, I made my own babyfood, I cloth diapers and laundered them myself. My goal for staying home was to offset as much money as I could that I wasent making by negating the need for money. It's very hard, dirty, sweaty and at times nasty work. No one can tell me I dont work because my work is not commodified!
I also learned to bake bread and make pasta....now when we grocery shop all I buy is ingredients...I buy nothing prepared. Nothing processed. All at once, there can appear to be nothing to eat, while in reality, i can make anything my family might want. I haven't yet, but I've been looking at recipes for cheese its. My goal is to not need to buy anything but the ingredients I can't grow and preserve myself. I take being a housewife very seriously. And I prefer housewife to stay at home mom because my work is not just for my child. I work to care for my husband every bit as much, and he works his ass off for us😍
@@jacquelinealthoff5842 I applaud you! I'm a man and I love cooking and I've learned to make my own pasta, bread, etc., and now I'm especially glad I did, because my wife is severely handicapped, so I'm the one who cooks and does all the domestic jobs. Fortunately, I work as a translator, so I can work from home in front of a computer, which also is vital for our marriage, as my wife can't live by herself (she can't even roll her chair) and needs help with everything from toilet to adjusting her position in bed to sleep. And yet, she's my best friend, I'm crazy proud of her, as she's extremely intelligent and overall a wonderful person I admire deeply and feel very privileged to be married to.
@@jacquelinealthoff5842 Outstanding. To all those angry, bitter women offering nothing to modern relationships and demanding to know, "where all the good men" have gone.... they've married women like Jacqueline. And I'll add, before any feminists go off about how this woman is victimized and oppressed, you can clearly see she's happy and fulfilled with being a good wife and mother who does her part to care for her family, and I'd bet a handsome wager her husband not only works his ass for them, but probably treats her with the utmost respect.
If you don’t feel comfortable sharing I totally understand but I want this so bad. How does your husband support your family? Does he work 2 jobs? Do you live in an apartment? My (soon to be husband) and I live together, he makes we both make about 23/hr, are extremely frugal and still could not afford a child, especially not on a single income
Harrington is a brilliant woman and the longer I listened to her the angrier I got. I became angry over the fact that mainstream media has shielded us from legions of amazingly smart people, people who have insightful and pertinent commentary on our world, ie people like Harrington. Triggernometry and many others are laying waste to the mainstream media and the snobby subculture that staffs it, thank god. Mary Harrington was a delight to listen to and a breath of fresh air.
I agree there's a a lot of nonsense in the public discussions on gender issues these days. But I am stopping when the opening remark is so idiotically bad. She said in respect of birth control _"so the contraceptive pill is the first transhumanist technology it's the first major widespread, um, social you know biomedical Intervention which aims not at fixing something which has gone wrong with normal Health but upgrading normal."_ Sorry but that is utter BULLSHlT. People have been practising various forms of birth control going all the way back to Ancient Egypt. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control
@@tonywilson4713 Please review the words 'major' and 'widespread' in your dictionary and try to re-read that sentence, maybe it will make more sense then.
@@tonywilson4713 I think you missed the point. Of course there have always been various forms of birth control - mostly inconvenient at best and downright dangerous at worst. She is referring to an almost universally accessible method that could be relied upon to a degree never before even dreamed of. Even a little over 50 years ago, as I approached adulthood, my mother's words to me - basically warning me off sex before marriage - were that "hot water and whisky didn't work" as they hadn't worked when she was pregnant with me! So much for the ancient methods!
@@diatonicdelirium1743 Please don't be yet another pompous clown. Its quite simply a bullshit claim that's more hyperbole than fact. And to be sure I don't give a damn which side of the woke argument she's on. I am tired of the bad faith *FROM BOTH SIDES* of the woke discussion.
My wife is a homemaker and in a clique of homemakers. They not only make the home life great through their efforts, they make our community. That's something money cannot buy.
What I found interesting of her argument was that the division between the home labor and professional labor is a relatively recent one (a result of the industrialization and modernization) and to me it seems the societies hasn't yet sorted it out and came back to equilibrium. Because in the past being a homemaker wasn't just about doing a nice cozy home, apart from the rich bourgeois families who could afford it. Poor women always had to work hard. But with the industrialization and professionalization of work market, they suddenly had this division between the home presence with children and the need to work which would be outside home. And many lower class women today still have to work, typically low tier jobs, outside home. Being able to stay home andbe a homemaker is obviously also hard work (eg raising kids but even just regular work around the house) but at the same time it's also a privilege and a sign of social status.
Every stay at home mom I know (and a couple of stay at home dads) get asked constantly "When are you going back to work?". When I've pointed out that it's rude and condescending, I'm told to stop being sensitive. Society has become so messed up.
They are right to tell you to stop being sensitive. It's an assumption because most people go out to work. That said, there is nothing wrong with staying at home. But the assumption that you wouldn't is simply a function of the work based society we live in. It's not something to get worked up over.
Sis, just answer them with this back question: "When do you go back to slavery". Money is a trade for your time. No time of your life can truly be paid with money. So make enough for the family but try to rely more on yourself. Don't trust society. Blessed be all the families who still use their time for their children and the home. ❤
Try being a minimalist man. People treat me with much disrespect, if not more than a woman. Why would I hold a career when I can simply have no costly desires? I would rather not contribute to societal problems than make enough money to fulfill the desires that create those problems. People complain their taxes go to funding wars, why do they not respect the idea then of not contributing any taxes at all?
@@jaednhowlar2359 You make a really good point. I think of how long it takes for me to get ready. I’m like… This would be shorter if I didn’t do all this crap! I also have skin issues and allergies so that’s why.
Mary Harrington is so incredibly astute and intelligent, and just absolutely fascinating! This is my favourite interview of all time on this channel 🙌 thank you for introducing me to Mary's ideas and work.💚
Mary is astute indeed and more the pragmatic egalitarian rational feminist, rather than the unreasonable militant marxist feminazi that the upperclass society an media like to radicalize young impressionable college women with. 👍
@@Matt-zp1jn Unfortunately those words mean nothing to the rest of the world. China is definitely going to win over more Conservative countries like Saudi Arabia, Africa, Iran, and India and Capitalism is not gonna matter anymore.
I felt that she hasn't really broken any new ground. Most of what Mary Harrington says I could easily say was evident to myself 10 years ago - and is a common observation among most men I talk to. It was however refreshing to hear a woman saying it.
She's intelligent when it comes to keeping all societal focus on spurious and cyclical female issues so she can get everyone to pretend that men and boys don't have a serious lack of fundamental human rights.
Super-articulate in a broad ranging, down to earth, sexually literate way - what a precious resource in our atomised ‘post-truth’ unconsciously cyborg era.
Important discussion. As someone born at the cusp of the 1960’s it’s refreshing to hear someone speak on these issues with insight, clarity, wisdom… she’s saying what many of us have considered for years. We lived through it, without necessarily buying into it.
0:57:45 but isn't this the goal of the Marxists? They don't want women - or men - working in free market, volunteer capacities. They won't everything managed by the state. Look at how the British developed private charity in 18th & 19th centuries. Now you pay 50%+ in taxes. They nationalised moral behaviour.
I was born in the 80's and am a male, but in my life time life has never gotten easier or better. Smart phones and internet are a mask that life is easier, but these only very narrow aspects of life. The fundamental parts of life that are absolutely necessary, earning money, food, love and companionship, exploring interests and hobbies, none of these have gotten easier, all are tougher. I imagine been born in the early 60's you would of seen this occur far more than I have. It may not necessarily be you, I hope life has gotten easier for you, but if this is the case, look at the friends around you and how they are fairing in these aspects of life.
@@kingcosworth2643 do you watch many coming-of-age from the 80s & 90s? Just looks so liberating. I know they (we) had problems too, but so much fewer self induced problems vs today...
She concedes that feminists need to rethink what marriage means. But why, you secured everything that you wanted - don't you like it? Having won the game you know want to change the rules, is it because you don't like how it's turned out!! Unfortunately men are walking away from the current state of marriage. So either the original feminist concept can be seen to be incorrect or they've overplayed their hand as it is men that are walking away from / not seeking relationships. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, it can't have been envisioned that men would walk away, it was assumed that men would remain unchanged while the feminists rolled their dice. Unfortunately it's going to take an equal force, equivalent to feminism for men to come back to the table and reconsider what's in it for them. You reap what you sow, it's just surprising that men are so thick that its taken them 60-odd years to waken up to how skewed marriage is against them. They've finally realised that the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
This is for me the most thought-provoking discussion I have ever listened to on this channel. Harrington's humane observations based on her feminist principles serves to cut through the ideological ranting that unfortunately surrounds this important debate at the moment. Really enjoyed this with a lot to takeaway in terms of food for thought.
@@Meandyouisnus Okay,... tell it to women. When you're transparently angry and blaming the issue on men, you're doing nothing to help solve the problem. There's no shortage of single, bitter, middle aged women who spent their entire youth sampling penises. If you pretend otherwise, you're lying to yourself.
@@Meandyouisnus Its funny my fellow men are stupid, women get mad at men for being stupid, get a pill giving them the opportunity to be stupid instantly celebrates women making the same stupid mistakes they wanted men to stop making... 🤣😂🤣 See why men and women who can actually act civilised and think critically wonder why that happened? Instead of damage control women agreed to make the issue twice as bad now both halves of the population partakes in it and celebrates it?..
Anyone who thinks you can do a societal about-face from gender norms that have been in effect for at least thousands of generations and not expect (hundreds of) years of resultant destructive chaos as a result, cannot be thinking critically.
The fact that human beings have survived for hundreds of thousands of years without any medical interventions at all should be good enough proof that something like the birth control pill isn't going to make much of a dent either way, but leave it to conservatives and trads to think that humanity is undone by something that has barely existed for half a century.
We get duped by false narratives generated by the elites - that it’s about ‘progress’ (profit) ‘education’ (organised childcare for the workers of the industrial revolution) ‘lifting people out of poverty’ (smashing community, resilience, sovereignty and agency) … The doublespeak predates Orwell’s 1984 - he just crystallised what he could see already happening . Huxley too…
Found the distinction between the feminism of freedom and the feminism of care a really useful one. We are now living in the aftermath of the feminism of freedom winning out over the feminism of care 💔💔💔💔💔… how sad for men that the caring feminine has been subsumed by the ‘freedom - loving ‘ feminine - observe how she veers now towards a parody of herself and her original intention- a chimera, a hamster on a wheel, a blow-up doll without roots or vision. What a timely conversation. Mary Harrington - you are causing seismic shifts in the gender conversation … 🙏🏼
I refuse to put myself in a position where I have no financial independence. I have been on the end of depending on another person financially only to be left begging, being without, lost opportunities, anger, manipulation and being controlled. I'm a wife and mom, but I have my own career and make my own money. Financial management is joint.
💯% agree! S/he who has money has control. Money = power = control Absolute power (i.e. control/money) corrupts (eventually) Any other argument is pure delusion!
Absolutely Chan T. I'm a woman doing a traditionally 'male' job. I've been fortunate to be able to make myself financially independent, own my home, cars, self-employed. I've done this as a reaction to three relationships gone wrong with men who presented as 'good guys' initially but became controlling, didn't like me earning more than them and not dependent on them. As a result I am resolutely single and without children but I don't see any alternative for the sake of my sanity and physical well-being.
By the very nature of having children it makes a women dependent - that is why choosing who you have kids with is such a big decision. I have an absolutely lovely husband but I still have my own bank account
Stay home. Cook and clean. Unplug your brain. Teach your daughters to do the same. Saves a lotta $$$ on education costs, doesn't it? What do girls need to do anything more than have babies anyway? And they wonder why these kids are having their breasts cut off.
More power to them ❤ But perhaps we should enable stay at home mothers with universal basic income? Why should we not support women to be good mothers if they choose to do so? ❤
Oh my God! Parents do want their kids to have abortions! Wake up! You're against abortion until your "Straight A" 15-year-old daughter gets pregnant. I can assure you the parents will drive her to the abortion clinic without thinking twice. I know a minister who did that. Same if it's your son who impregnates a girl. There go their studies and career, and that can't happen. A little bit more honesty, please. I know you guys are too young to have teenage kids, but wait and see what life is really like. It's not pretty but it's better than having your kid's future cut short.
And that's the reality we deal with over and over and over again So we either deal with it THERE or we deal with it HERE (or continue NOT)... STUCK & TRAPPED here... Continue on, merry as we go ... or perhaps there's a different conversation to actually discuss two-gether 2 be had about absolutely everything from maybe... Just maybe fellas because it's you that seems to be the hurdle here really.... the beginning of time and that great big book you like to point out at all the time.... The part that's always left out....
36:20 Nailed it with re-thinking marriage about not being 24/7 romantic. Romance is nothing if your partner doesn't have your back when you need them. It's way more like a team scenario than a lovey dovey smoochy romance novel. "He didn't get me flowers on Valentine's!" So? Did he get you some Pepto at 2am when you woke up with food poisoning? People need to re-evaluate their expectations in relationships and in life - there are so many people unhappy because they think everything is supposed to be grandiose and magical.
I've been married for almost 20 yrs now and that's 100% right. I don't buy her flowers every week but when I do it's special. It's the stuff at 2am when ya have to go out for something when she's preggers and you just go. She was happy I had a guys gaming night and ordered us pizza. No guilt trips or silly childish twitterpation.
It's unreal, how everyone just bought this bs with romance! Marriage is an economical solution of compiling resourses of individuals and maybe extended family to provide safety nets for each member and procreate and prosper! You gotta be bonkers to never think of this. Even secular Jews still think in terms of netting family a benefit from marriage, not butterflies in stomach.
You know there are men who buy flowers on valentine's day and buy medicine at 2 am for their food poisoned partner. But women have been convinced that they should take the minimum possible. Like it's not possible that he takes care of you when you're sick and buy you a gift on special days, choose one!! They do it when they have a good foundation and have been raised well (which rarely happens) and when they're in love.
My husband and I have used cycle tracking for 7 years. I have never felt in more control of my body. The ability to tell him no and the rush to be able to tell him yes. It definitely brings a rewarding aspect back to sex.
@@kc6810 yes but I don't use a calendar method.i use Creighton model. I'm currently breastfeeding and my cycle is all over the place. Plus I have PCOS.
@@katiez688 You can tell him no and same like he can tell no to you as a husband and go and find alternative for him. The sexbots are coming most men will choose those sexbots and replace women with sexbots.
As a woman it is extremely refreshing to here another woman speak truth about what has been going on in our societies. Everywhere right now. That is why it is important that we also talk about morals and sins and the consequences of those sins.
As a man of about 30, it gives me hope to know there are women who are questioning the tides of this rip in our society (pun intended, this woke progress is stupid and a rip tide to perdition.)
Everything she’s saying is spot on. My husband and I went against the culture of the 90’s and I went part time while my children were young. Years of sacrifice later…we don’t regret a minute. Our daughters are well adjusted adults with values and critical thinking skills that stand out in their generation. In my 40’s I returned to full time work and now I’m a nurse, as well as serve in local government. I believe I have so much more to bring to the table because of my years of motherhood and marriage…
My siblings and I are a bit younger, but my sister did the same thing. Got married and had her first child at 20, second at 23. 23 years later, my nieces are WONDERFUL young women, my sister and brother in law have a great marriage, and she's working full time. The idea that women should avoid marriage and a family in favor of a career first is a sickening lie.
The key word in your reponse is "sacrifice." That is what love entails. Love is "wanting the good of the other" more than your own. This holds families and mariages fast!
Ok for middle class women who had access to support cleaners, Gardiner's child minders etc. Disaster for working class women who had to work themselves ragged to pay for the higher mortgages and juggle all the child minding and shopping and house work. Disaster
I wish I could have heard this perspective when I was in my 20s. Never thought about birth control as the first step towards Transhumanism. It's been quite a gauntlet navigating as a woman. I had a doctor put me on the pill when I was younger and it messed up my health. I feel like I was part of a huge experiment between the sexes and women are paying dearly.
I was thinking the same thing. Also „Make sex dangerous again“ and „stick through unhappy marriages unless they are outright abusive“ are „solutions“ that truly are against progress. Not as in they prevent further progress but they undo what has been done and thus take back the literally sovereignty we have as women today. I was truly hoping that when she said „(all the good things we have today for women) comes at a cost“, she would offer us ways we could adress the rising issues around our failure to adapt to changing relationships dynamics. Not ways to go back in time and trade off for the issues of the past instead. And I am saying that as someone who chose to be a homemaker. It was my decision and I love that it was. I grew up in Middle East where it was forced onto me by culture and circumstances and there I completely rejected it because that’s terrifying. When I managed to get out and it became a choice of mine, I could truly chose to do it because I love it and I care. One can’t bind someone by their circumstances to be a good wife and a mother without their choice unless a level of mental torture forces them submission to such fate. If I didn’t have access to the fertile management and divorce normalization that make me feel safe in the role of a wife, it would have been my lifelong sentence. I find it hypocritical a bit that she talks about how elite women fail to see men who could be dangerous in reference to the trans movement. I think she fails to see what these men would be like in a society where we stick together for the kids through unhappy marriages, have a culture against contraceptives/abortion and hope for men to fraternize into educating each other into „gentleman“. As someone who has seen marriage oriented cultures and upbringing as well as the open sex grounds of Berlin, I will choose sovereignty and responsibility over ensuring my safety any day over „make sex dangerous again“ and marriage oriented solutions to my safety
I tried the pill when I was in university as I was dating my 1st bf and it also helped my debilitating period cramps but I experienced side effects like irritability and depression so I stopped. I won't touch the pill again as the side effects are more hellish to deal with than my 1 day bad period cramps. Also, I hate how a lot of modern feminists devalue women who choose to become housewives or stay at home mothers. Some of them have valid reasons of concern such as financial security in case the spouse dies/gets ill/infidelity/divorce, still it shouldn't warrant them to mock these women who love to be home makers. I have been a career woman and really ate a lot of feminist values but having been married and having a bad time with my health, thus making me into a housewife, I have come to appreciate how valuable being a housewife is and my own mom, who is a housewife herself, all of the things she taught me about femininity are all making sense. Family and its stability is my top priority.
Older "conservatives" are not old people "clinging to old, traditional values." They people, like you, who have been exposed to life and learned its lessons, and now simply see the value that those who came before them saw.
As she stated, those elites have NO clue about the real world since they're not exposed to it. It's not in their interests to see the huge differences between the sexes. I feel their opinion should carry no weight since it doesn't represent anyone outside that small fraction of other elites.
It's so heartening to see women speaking up for women ❤ for too long, feminists have campaigned for women to be more like men. Thanks to people like Mary and Louise Perry, women's issues are being ventilated in the interest of traditional femininity
Funny, men have been saying this since the late 1990s....ever heard of Warren Farrell or Rollo Tomassi ? ...but then again, you ladies keep cancelling us because of mansplaining. Bravo... your ignorance is now transparent to us all.
I adore Mary Harrington. She always has an interesting take on issues and causes me to think. Her level of intelligence, analysis, honesty, and fearlessness is so difficult to find.
So much of this interview resonates with me. I stopped bc because it was having such a horrible impact on both my mental and physical health. I was an adult when I started and only used it for a couple of years before I'd had enough, so I can't imagine what it must be like to be on it longterm from your teens. I'm now a sahm with 2 kids and the disconnect and dismissiveness from others can be very overt. Suddenly because I am not in the active workforce, nothing I say, think or do has any value, I'm so "lucky" to be a kept women and not do any "real" work! I have honestly distanced myself so much from the label of 'feminist' because it now stands for almost everything it should oppose - commodification of women, children and the removal of sex-based rights or even the recognition that we are a sexually dimorphic species! I have never come across the term 'cyborg feminism' but it certainly encapsulates this insane time we are living in. Great interview.
Good for you. Some people are not comfortable giving their partners financial power over them. But everybody is different. For example, people would think it's important to maintain individuality and not confused motherhood with one's identity because it's a hat. And it's not unusual for women to be lost after a while. And work as an interest reflects and helps with individuation. But also because humans aren't perfect, extra income can be helpful in case of an emergency or life threatening situation. Furthermore, everybody knows the situation of the average married woman , she's the exhausted, ignored, underappreciated single married woman but nevertheless who likes to care what everybody thinks about her, so she puts up a fulfilled appearance on the outside. And with all the horror divorce stories of formerly kept women who warn against that because of financial abuse and control, eventhough there are exceptions and not all marriage stories are or end the same. People who look at generalities may easily roll their eyes at this idea of marriage as women empowerment. But I think there's a need to respect everybody's choice. The problem with feminism is they think they should rush in to save every woman, instead of just being open to those who allign with their ideas and letting be those who don't. For example, there are women out there who hop from one abuse relationship to another. But just because they do it doesn't mean feminism should feel obligated to stop them or feel upset if they go back to their abusive partners or even cover for their abusive partners. Different women have different purposes in life and people's choices have to be respected. We are all adults.
It's a shame that SAHMs have as much voice in modern times as radical feminists lesbians had 40 years ago. I hope that women like yourselves will gecone more vocal and recognized for your value to civilization.
Thank you for this conversation. I am currently a stay at home mom to our four children. But I also homeschool them, get them involved in the community, and I am starting an shop this year! This is just one chapter of my life! Next chapter as my children grow, who knows! I am networking now in my community to be available for my next chapter.
Same here! Home-school and all the rest. I make ferments but am about to start selling fiber arts and other crafts at the fairs this summer. The foods I make are for barter only, since I can't sell food without a loicense- LOL. Even though my Amish neighbors sell food freely. Also.... am I the ony one that thinks it's weird that we're called "stay at home moms" now? I call myself a housewife.
This was really thought-provoking. I have become almost "alienated" from my social circle, because after leaving an abusive husband at a relatively young age I decided to remain completely celibate until marriage and refused to participate in modern hook-up/"dating" culture. I was 27 then and left before we had a chance to have children. So it has been nearly 5 years of celibacy now, and when I mention this people act like I am in a cult or something, even though I have a pretty good job in IT and also do a bit of freelancing in music (so both quite liberal environments). Many of my female friends are completely brainwashed by hook-up culture, and I tried to explain how it's harmful and toxic for women, but to no avail... There has to be a breaking point.
The same women participating in hook up culture are the same ones saying how bad men are, and they can't find anyone. They are distracted. You are doing great.
Interesting story, while I agree with you that this new culture is toxic to women, I also have a hard time not supporting birth control because so many future children were saved from unfit parents and a poor, traumatized upbringing. That's one aspect I wish was more talked about, the kids and the reality of unfit parents.
A penny saved is a penny earned as they say. I’am glad that they pointed out you can earn money, but also stretching that money to build a life you want is an important part of the equation. We have choices and should prioritize our values. I personally love being a “trad” wife. I primarily work in our home caring for the family. With the main goal of stretching the money he makes to create the home we want. Of course at times we help the other one if they need. But for the most part we have taken on traditional roles. Our kids are thriving and we are very happy.
As a new mother, and someone who's had a nagging feeling for years that something is just *wrong* with society, I have such admiration for Mary Harrington for finally speaking about this. Louise Perry too. If I'd heard these arguments in my teens and 20s, I'd have saved myself a whole lot of misery.
Hate to break it to you but usually women in their 20’s would just tell people like this they are just old and to get with the modern times. Then continue to jill off with other feminist.
@@Yeetus223 Nothing as stubborn and fool hardy as someone 16 to 25 years old. The only hope is that people don't screw up too badly during this period.
Please take this right way. You felt something was wrong because you were a feminist and may still be. You even said so based off your comment. See, if you wanted to be part of the solution you would have married at 18 and took care of your husband. Instead you likely had a 304 phase and ruined your ability to pairbond. See the beta males and feminist in power knew what they were doing when they willingly shadowed you wahmenfrom all accountability and responsibility. Likely broke many men's heart(your ego and pride is gonna make you tell yourself that's a good thing) and only perpetrated more misery and suffering amongst others as well. I tell you all this in that if you take it correctly you will devote your life into teaching wahmen not to ruin themselves and men. Now that you are a mother it's likely you know that their not much more to life than what most 18-30 wahmen tell themselves that there is. God bless you and your new child☦️
Read David Deida. Or Listen to him on video…Rewilding sex is a great thought - possibly articulated by the tradition of Tantra a very long time ago. Great to update it with new terminology, and for a different audience … 🙏🏼
Can't wait to talk about rewilding sex at the next deep ecology workshop I attend. Talk about cat amongst the pigeons. The vegans will run away fast. I love what she thinks. This 1970s feminist agrees (with most of what she says).
@Zeno Whilst I agree with some of Mary's analysis and principles, 'rewilding sex' is not one of them. Women without recourse to reliable contraception ended up dead, injured, exhausted, and looking after enormous families they couldnt afford, were badly nourished and had less opportunity. Rewilding sex sounds great as a brand, but we have had 'wild sex' ie sex with high risk of pregnancy and we know what happens, we did it before the pill and we know the results. My grandmother had 11 children, her mother had 16, my other great grandmothers had 9 (great grandfather died relatively young) and 7, respectively. The great grand mother who only had 7 was an extraordinarily strong character. My grandmothers and the great grandmother with whom such conversations were had with me or repeated from other relatives all thought that the pill was desirable and wished they had it back in the day, despite loving their children intensely. Wild sex is great when you can afford to either withhold sex in your relationship and still trust it to hold, or can afford all the pregnancies and children that come along over decades you are fertile. Probably a different story when you marry in your late 30s or 40s compared to marrying when you are highly fertile in your early 20s!
@@shelleyphilcox4743 I agree. I never took the pill and dont like it but I have a caring and reasonable husband. Many women arnt so lucky and would end up with unwanted children or aborting.
Won't it always be the case that poor women will continue to have to go out and do the grunt work for society, while the better off women are able to stay home with their "home industries?"
There was a time, there was a couple of generations in the twentieth century when working class wives could afford to be stay at home mothers. Then feminists spoilt it.
@@Winterascent The "middle class" means something different in the US often than Australia and Britain, where it means the educated class of doctors and lawyers etc. So I wasn't clear on what you meant. I was thinking more of the concept of productive families. I have ancestors who were doing these things in the 1880s, a husband/wife team of horse trainers, he trained them to the saddle, she to the side saddle. And they raised the children together. When I was younger I knew lots of elderly ladies who could describe life in the early twentieth century. Married women were highly productive within their own homes and farms throughout the period, but they did not work outside the home after marriage.
I could listen to Mary speak all day. She is so clear and precise in her language. What a well-spoken and articulate speaker! I'm glad you guys had her back and please do so again in future when she develops her keen insights on feminism further as time goes on.
Thanks for mentioning sticking a tough marriage out (unless there is violence). So many people just throw divorce around as an option and tear familes apart because they want to find personal "happiness" whatever that means.
I agree. My dad was an alcoholic. He was a total drain on the family for many years, I used to beg my mom to leave him. She stuck through and he is now about five years sober and I feel like I have a dad for the first time in my life. He’s taught me the meaning of forgiveness and redemption.
That’s not true 50% divorces is because of abuse, and abuse manifests itself in many forms emotional psychological, financial etc Not only physical, and any of those forms can escalate to physical violence and murder any time. So people don’t just divorce out of the blue, there are always very good reason why they shouldn’t continue and why it’s the best for everyone. Many women live in abusive marriages and unable to leave because they depend on a man financially. They have been cheated on repeatedly, beaten, disrespected and still continue because they are trapped.
@@TheAmericanFrugalHousewifeh good grief, not every alcoholic sobers up, many die alcoholics. This is like committing yourself to many years in prison, never.
I'm 58. My parents were born in theud 20s . There's was a probably not a big romance marriage. For economic and cultural they stayed together. As their child I lived in an aura of constant resentment and unhappiness. I think that is why I made the decision to never marry. They were both good people that should have been happy elsewhere and I probably would have been happier. My mother traditionally stayed at home, packing knickers. Work was high up, she could look after me at the same time. It was miserable. My Dad drove a truck and that was far more fun. So I ended up in the really hard manual job of stuffing containers, drove forklifts and vans, ran my own haulage Company for 28 years till I retired. I've also never liked children, even when I was a child. I remember watching a programme where a woman had been persuaded that she did want a baby by her family, when she said she didn't. Because you know, you fall in love once they are born. She didn't, she cared for her son but didn't love him. It was incredibly sad for all concerned. I remain incredibly thankful that I lived in a time where I could have contraception, though the pill was not for me. On a broader point, I do entirely agree that men do need more of their own space and need to be allowed to be more male. Men and women are different...though I've always been in male jobs because hard dirty physical work was where I was happiest.
I don't think that recognizing norms necessarily means rejecting those who don't easily take them on. It's fine to leave the 99 to find the one lost sheep, unless the 99 get eaten by wolves while you are not doing the boring work of taking care of the average individual. Or perhaps better put: the 'diverse' are interesting and valuable, and the mavericks are fine, but they should not be given unfettered control of the whole enterprise.
Have you considered that your family was just low on the happiness scale? Sadly, the family was so bad at being inspired and excited that it died out as per Darwinian theory. Being poor sucks, but we have to acknowledge that no amount of equity, equality or wealth will resolve the fundamental humanity of us all. Some of us are less suited to society than others. 🤷♂️
I grew up with feminist and feminism and was a dues paying member for decades. It is absolutely the most supportive group of people for me and others whatever my goals have been in what ever circumstances I have been in. People pretending the feminist movement are trying to impose one type of lifestyle for all women, at best are wrong.
This is one of my favorite interviews on your channel! Thank you so much for introducing me to this fabulous woman! Her clarity and connecting the pieces of our broken society were just wonderful.
I had to scroll so far to find any comments that even slightly challenged her points. That is not a good thing. It's too echo-chambery in here. I mean one of this woman's arguments against birth control was that girls/women who got railroaded into sex would have a better excuse to stop the man if they weren't on birth control...that's pretty wild. LMAO maybe they'll do better at stopping the man! And if I'm wrong they'll just end up pregnant and trapped for the rest of their life teehee
The part about why families should stick together for support rather than giving up when the romance fades hit home for me. A few years ago my wife asked for separation without any grounds other than boredom/lack of spark. Then covid and the cost of living crisis hit, I got a good promotion, and it dawned on her (too late) that it’s not all about being whisked off your feet. She asked if we could give it another go. Perhaps if I’d watched this video beforehand I would have said yes, for my own sake as well as our daughter’s. Because the other thing Mary said, about men losing their entire support group when they lose their family, is so very true. I have a few work friends and little family, so my contact with other people is hanging by a thread.
It isn't easy to make friends, but I say you can go out and find new friends. Sports and hobby are always a good route. There are odd clubs for hobbies, my friends husband goes to a Scalextric club every week as an example. As a child of unhappily married parents, don't beat yourself up. I grew up in an atmosphere of hidden resentment. Both my parents were good people, but they should have split up and been happier.
I’m sorry to hear about that brother. May I suggest finding a good church. I live out of country, and I’ve never had such a close, caring group of men than at my church. It also helps my two boys make good friends beyond the kids at school (which can often be a mixed bag). In any case, here’s wishing you and your girl well.
@@Perichoresis777 or an activity group.. Any team sports!!! This way you can meet more people who are from different religions and backgrounds who then can share interesting stories about their lives.
Sometimes when you are in your feelings and listen to social media and entitled people. Some might think that's applied to every household. But critical question was this ask without any merit?
A very interesting discussion. I wanted to add a small point about women (or indeed men) who choose to be home makers rather than (re)entering the commercial work force. My wife and I discussed our careers when we got married and she shared that one of her goals was to be a mother and be able to give the majority of her time to the raising of our children. She manages our money, she maintains our home, she is the teacher of our children and despite my best efforts she is able to give more to the raising of our children than I do. One other thing that she enables is that I can do a job where I sometimes am away from home overnight but am still able to be a father and have a stable family. If she was not there I would have to quit my job immediately in order to manage my life and effectively parent my children. So what I am trying to say is that we are a team. We do different things but the income we can gain is made possible by both of us working together. Same for our home, we couldn't have our home, children and family if it was not for both of us even though she is more visible in part of our efforts and I am more visible in a different area of our efforts. I do feel that companionship is very healthy for me and probably for many. Yet sometimes I feel people try to suggest that my wife is not ambitious enough or feminist enough or in some way is missing out on 'real life'. Personally I find her work necessary and even in some matters heroic.
Bravo, sir. You sound like my life partner man (husband not on paper). Many people's partnerships are not so appreciative of each other. It works well for us. We're proud of our little family 💕
I loved your comments. But when I was home, I felt I was living “real” life, and I felt sorry for my husband who spent his days in the workplace, where behavior, emotions, etc. must be tailored to keeping a job/getting a better job. I used to say that I spent my days with people who loved me more than anything else in the world (the same for me), not to mention that I had pretty much complete control over how I spent my time. My husband, on the other hand, had to adapt himself to the standards of his workplace, right down to how he dressed. This is why people heave a sigh of relief when they step into their homes at the end of a workday ~ this is where they can be themselves, where real life lives. Frankly, I think hardworking, faithful, responsible husbands are the unsung heroes of at-home motherhood. My only regret is that I didn’t appreciate my husband more all those years ago ~ although I have told him many times since. All the best to you!
36:41 This point is absolutely correct. My grandparents on my mother's side divorced, however, my grandfather stayed with my grandmother and helped raise them as he knew how hard it would be if he simply left. He grew up without a father. They still live together to this day. Even though their relationship didn't pan out romantically, they cared enough about their children to stay together. Taking responsibility is key.
Wouldn't taking the romance out of marriage be dangerous? Wouldn't that make marriage solely a business, which is how we've gotten into this 'individualized' state of marriage in the first place? Wouldn't taking the romance out of marriage also lead to infidelity? A pragmatic approach to running the family I can agree with, but it must start with love for one another because that then becomes a value of the family as a unit.
🤔 good point must start with love. But due to media culture people maybe have the wrong idea of what that love should look like in daily life, you can’t have butterflies every minute of every day for 20 years
I think our idea of love is also skewed. So much focus on possessing and merging and less on respect, honesty and trust these days. Sexual attraction and chemistry is important but that won't carry the relationship through the difficult times. It's about building a life, being teammates, caring about and accepting and respecting each other's and honouring each other's differences and needs... So hard to find these days
Wonderful interview. It’s good that you’ve given the platform for this type of discussion which I feel is desperately needed. Congratulations to Mary Harrington for being brave enough to put these ideas out there. I’m sure she is getting a lot of pushback because it’s so rare to hear this type of information in this day and age. She is a true feminist in my mind. She is obviously educated, courageous female, who is speaking her beliefs, which do mirror other women who may not be as qualified to say these things and would be dismissed for not knowing what they speak of by the “true feminist”. Wishing her success.
Enjoyed listening to Mary Harrington. But what really stood out to me in this interview is how Francis and Konstantin listen intently with their guest and engage on spot with the topic at hand. You both don't override the conversation for the obvious purpose of directing the conversation. Much appreciated.
Oh dear, I agree with a lot of things Mary says, especially concerning the pill, which I don't take. Also surrogacy etc. Not with stay with the father of your kids for the sake of the kids. Sorry that is stupid she obviously never was in an unhappy marriage. Divorce was something many people fought for and is absolutely necessary in many cases. What I don't agree with is the way they treat divorced men in many cases. Also a woman needs to be able to make money otherwise she will always be at the mercy of anyone. Stay at home mum is fine if you have money not so much if you don't. I think the work market should be changed that's what we should work on.
Agree. Part of the modern marriage procedure needs to be a discussion about what the couple will do if they divorce in particular in regards to their kids. For many men this would be a deal breaker which, if discussed with a professional before the wedding, would help women clarify their own responsibilities better and understand men better. It would also mean divorce is less harmful to the children as partially prepared solutions would already be agreed upon.
I was just thrilled to hear there's a generation of women who are not just taking birth control to run around and have wonton and therefore worthless sex. The best sexual equality to be hoped for in life is that both sexes would take sex seriously. It will always carry with it spiritual, emotional, mental,physical consequences. They are not escapable. Trying to negate that fact dehumanizes us, devalues life. Abortion is a natural end result . euthanasia next....
Good that she's done research and a book on this! I just ranted about it in home few years ago. I'm a stay at home mom. Productive households I have ranted about more recently. And more about the tax obstacles of it. How we as people have been cut at our natural autonomy to be industrious at home! Just the intent of the activity being more than a hobby it becomes a company with a need for accounting and all these hurdles. Not that it's actually profitable! Or making a single dime. Just the intent of trying to make a little money.
I took the pill for a little while in my twenties, but it didn't sit well with me. I felt I was preventing my body from doing what it was meant to, and stopped taking it. I adopted the rhythm method, combined with the withdrawal method, and had two planned children. I'm very happy with my decision.
The irony. A white female Eugenicist named Margaret sanger created abortion to eliminate black children only for the most users to be Western white women. It's almost like God was punishing you for defying him
My wife and I both felt the same; I didn't want her to modify and chemically negate her normal biological functions; it just seemed unnecessarily dangerous and ignorant; when safe and responsible natural means, that has been practiced since the dawn of time; was much safer for her "Reproductive Health"; ... we too; used the 'Rhythm Method', combined with the withdrawal method, and We too; had two planned children; We are both just starting our 70's; life has been good! Take Care!
She actually did replace herself and her husband. Two kids from two people, a simple replacement. A third kid and other additional kids would be adding to the population.@@somercet1
Yeah I wonder how much hot spice she had to use for her lesbian adventures she mentioned, because you will be hard pressed to find more of a vegan option than that if the danger of pregnancy is the bacon. Besides the fact that I don't remember ever hearing more distasteful idea than that we would be chasing the danger of pregnancy... what a colossally tone deaf idea. She reminds me one of those chat bots that sounds so intelligent until they occasionally slip up and say things like 2+2=5. Overall what a buffoon she comes across as, I wouldn't be surprised if she had autism of some sort..
A very risky argument indeed. Mary speaks very well and makes sense here and there - but she fails to take into account self-preservation for women. An example - I witnessed domestic abuse as a child. I witnessed pedophilia with stepdad no1 and alcoholism with stepdad no2. I dated a man for 10 years before we got married and my then-husband abandoned me when our daughter was just two weeks old. Financial independence isn't something women want for "power" we want it for survival. It's our reaction to ill treatment by men, not because we are power hungry trying to be more like "men". We are looking after ourselves and our children. Her argument completely dismisses the HUGE population of single mothers. I imagine Mary has had wonderful male figures in her life, which is great, but is not the experience of everyone. Her theories come across as blanket statements. The cyborg argument - Contraception isn't something new or even something feminist. The first birth control methods date back to ancient Egypt. Four thousand years ago! Nothing to do with industrial age. Would we say we are cyborgs for vaccines too, seeing as we are preventatively medicating ourselves? She didn't even mention when men get the snip 0_o Too many holes in this argument.
I think the true feminism is not about sleeping around, but it is in your power to say no to those men who are not willing to take on the responsibility of the children you could create
Contraception is not about sleeping around, many married women and men use contraceptives. You don’t want to get pregnant each time you have sex with your husband.
I completely disagree with the attitude of "if you want to you can *be a SAHM." It's extremely classist and it's not always possible. It's not easy. It's not economically feasible, especially for low income women.
It's not feasible for most women.. Not in today's financial climate. And those that chose it without money of their own better pray their relationship lasts. It is a poverty trap. And that's the problem.
Francis said something towards the end (and Mary expanded on it) which I've been saying for 30 years: that damned word "just" in the phrase "just a housewife and mum". I hate it. I hated it as soon as I realised what was wrong with it and I've hated it ever since. It's the direct result of feminists shaming women who use the _choice_ that feminism's supposed to have given them, telling them that it's a low-effort, lazy, cop-out and they aren't fulfilling their potential. You'd see women on TV game shows describe themselves as "just a housewife" or " just a mum" and then blush and hang their heads as if they'd let the side down, as the host quickly moved on to someone more interesting. There is NOTHING easy about raising children and it's a very important job: possibly the most important job in society. The fact that it doesn't attract a high monetary income says more about the limitations of capitalism than it does about motherhood. I'm a fan of capitalism (just not a blind one), but we need better ways of measuring and rewarding added value in all it's various forms.
We HAVE good ways to capitalise the housewife. Your kids get morals and quality parenting, and have a much better chance of a good future, allowing them to compete better with their peers in the capitalist marketplace. It’s a longer term investment but all strong investment takes time to realise a return. All the data shows that a boring nuclear family has the best odds of future success for kids. You already have the answer to your wish. It’s just that the pay packet of your kids is harder to see than pay for your housewife.
Many years ago whilst being prompted for answers on a finance form or something like that, the man asked for my occupation and my response was "just a housewife" he told me he would put me down as "domestic engineer" because my occupation entailed so many different duties and there was no 'just' about it. I held my head high for years off that one comment on my choice of being a full-time mum and homekeeper.
In the early seventies I decided not to take the pill and had 3 children between the ages of 20 and 25 because they’re the best childbearing years. I studied for a Masters degree and went to work when the youngest was 5. Never said, “ I’m JUST a mum “ , but very proudly announced , “I’m a kept woman.”
Well said. Nurturing the fellow human beings in your care should be the most highly regarded profession, especially when you go about it as your most important job.
Her observation that BDSM and other introductions of violence into sexuality may be due to the risk of childbearing being missing from contracepted sex is incredibly evocative.
How to say this, hasn’t there always been a certain amount women throughout history who were willing to do some questionable sexual things ? The oldest job in the world and all that, although maybe it just massively increased those type of behaviours ?
@@adsldaveProstitution is not the oldest job; it's the oldest form of sllavery. With that in mind, ask yourself if this ancient woman was actually willing.
“They are all positives ; but not without cost” I would say they are all positives to an individual at the expense of society on the whole and at the cost of the individual fetus/baby/human being.
I agree there's a a lot of nonsense in the public discussions on gender issues these days. But I am stopping when the opening remark is so idiotically bad. She said in respect of birth control _"so the contraceptive pill is the first transhumanist technology it's the first major widespread, um, social you know biomedical Intervention which aims not at fixing something which has gone wrong with normal Health but upgrading normal."_ Sorry but that is utter BULLSHlT. People have been practising various forms of birth control going all the way back to Ancient Egypt. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control
@@amandaowen5091 Its still a ridiculous statement and that's what I am really getting fed up with in the woke public discussions. There's just so much hyperbole and bad faith claims from *BOTH* sides. I don't know about you but I an getting fed up with the endless discussions when we have some far bigger issues to deal with. I'm an engineer and the energy crisis is only going to get so much worse than it is because there's been so much public BS that the real issues are being lost in all this endless cacophony.
@@tonywilson4713"Major widespread biomedical intervention", the first industrial level pharmacological upgrade... sounds about right to me. Did she claim there was no birth control before that? No, of course she did not claim that at all.
@@biocykle AS I have said to others its just another chunk of worthless hyperbole in a BULLSHlT public discussion where *BOTH SIDES* seem to think that if they scream louder with worthless hyperbole they are somehow champions. I'm tired of *BOTH SIDES* in this worthless woke garbage pile of crap. There's some real issues to deal with that are worth discussing. You know just some minor things like: The Energy Crisis The Climate Crisis The Refugee Crisis The start of World War 3
A lot of these arguments overlap with those made by Germaine Greer in her 1984 book Sex is Destiny which was incredibly insightful about women’s lives - particularly less privileged women - and which put her out of step with much of 2nd wave feminism. I read that book as a very young woman and it had a huge impact on me.
Stop blaming all feminists for this mess. it is young feminists. Older women (I am GenX) have been hitting our heads against the wall over what younger women have done to all the advances we and previous generations of women made.
One of my favorite interviews you guys have ever done. Mary should definitely become a staple guest on trigonometry, which it sounds like is going to be the case.
My wife and I just listened to the whole podcast, and find Mary's views to be basic common sense. We are both 45 (older Trigg viewers). We both feel our generation was kind of in a sweet spot where women could embrace the freedom/opportunity of feminism, but men and women basically conformed to the commitment of marriage and family. Life can be cruel and deeply unfair, but our marriage and family has oriented both of us and enriched our lives. Marriage is not for everyone, but there is a reason to, as Mary says, keep it a covenant. One small quibble to her solutions would be to make life marginally more affordable for young, married people. It is hard to form families and have children when skilled people can't afford to live.
Marriage is for everyone. Its about letting go of ur personal desires and commitment. What ur trying to say is that some people cant commit to someone else because he or she is too selfish to commit to them.
This is the BEST interview you guys have ever done. What a wonderful perspective. Thanks so much for bringing such incredible and articulate people onto your show.
This is one of the sparse occasions when I would like to hit the Like Button a million times! Thank you FF and KK for this wonderful Interview! Much love from germany!
Every now and then someone says something that absolutely stops you in your tracks. Mary’s assertion that the precedent for women’s spaces being infringed upon by transgender identified men was set by women infringing upon men’s spaces in the name of feminism is one of them. That hit me like a ton of bricks.
@@Shineynsparkles Don't agree or not but it's true, it started with women forcing men's spaces to become coed by lawsuits and legal obligation if needed. There are almost no men only places left, they aren't allowed to survive because someone will sue about it being discriminatory to women while that same person also asks for more women only spaces.
It's true. But not only is it the root of the invasion of women's spaces it also destroyed spaces for boys to interact with other boys and learn to be men. Hence the feminisation of boys. Example being the boy scouts.
@@CazRaX This whole ish started when WW wanted inheritance laws and their own finances Then representation n the right to vote Then wanting to break the glass ceiling She omits a lot….
Mary is one of the best women. Deep thinking, with courage to go against the grain, the ability to escape thought prisons, to explore novel territory with empathy and pragmatism, able to articulate her findings with authority and compassion; it makes her such a great story-teller. Her traits reveal her wisdom and her deep capacity for love. She's just great.
Yeah, caring for children is important, but why is it assumed to be naturally women's work? Seems like she has a problem with capitalism, not feminism.
Same. It's so so scary too the side effects i suffered and how much my body went thru even coming off the pill. Don't mess around with hormones and your body! Doctors prescribe them like candy for everything, from acne to PCOS etc ..
53:40 I'm surprised the correspondent didn't challenge the logic of FF's statement. From her perspective i thought she would argue that liberating half the population and swelling the labour force has driven wages down and is the reason why you need two incomes to raise a family. She is also naively simplistic about kinks and danger, they have existed long before the internet and have deeper roots than looking for more danger in safe sex.
This is the most interesting and real discussion I’ve heard in a long time. Huge respect to Mary, I can’t wait to listen to more of what you have to say.
Excellent interview and much food for thought. One massively negative consequence not mentioned at all in your interview, and supported in large part I think on the cultural changes she highlights, is the huge demographic implosion humanity is experiencing right now in economically advanced cultures, and will experience in the third world in coming years. Her hope of creating a new vanguard of married couples who work from home so as to permit families that will promote having and caring for babies is terrific, and more important quite plausible, since it does create real opportunities from bringing meaning and purpose back into home-based married life.
I have to question the link between the pill and transgenderism, as transgenderism can be traced back to postwar America or prewar Germany depending on which version you look at, and trans seems to be readily picked up by countries such as Iran, where its just as much "transing away the gay" as it is here, just forcefully.
Far better than Mary…..Mary is still ideologically captured by the idea that their can be equality between the sexes - the most common fallacy of feminists. With life scripts completely different it is impossible to create equality….
Mary Harrigton presents a clear and accurate perspective on "how things used to be (and basically always were)" in such simple, easy language. What a gift to us, the confused masses. What a gift to the world.
No. She, like all chicks, always slant everytong to paint themselves as victims. And they think guys serving them and slaving away is fair. Go away, chick.
First time hearing her. She is an expert at communicating and her logic is water tight. This is my favorite conversation so far. Thank you both for what you’re doing.
Almost water tight. After accurately diagnosing modern social ills she let's feminism largely off the hook for the problems it has caused by appealing to "complex systems". Which isn't factually incorrect in a broad sense, but someone like Christina Hoff Summers would point to education as a major source of the problems of men and that is largely the fault of feminism. Maybe she's just being diplomatic, but she's pulling punches.
@@aaronvt9980 100% - she’s being somewhat coy here. I feel she’s fully aware of the sheer devastation inflicted on masculinity over the last few decades but that she also enjoys some aspects of it. I reckon this conversation could have also gone other places if she could be truly consistent logically. Good spot
Yes she lets the femanazis off the hook. Women created this fuckery by using the cops against their husbands then shaming us men into submission. men don't marry or have kids. Don't give them this power over you. Mgtow
@@bradleyjackson7168 while I agree that men have been shamed for being men for many decades, I made the choice the be married and have a child. I’m no longer ashamed of being male and my wife isn’t ashamed of being a stay at home mother. We do what we think is best for our daughter.
Thank you so much for conducting this interview and putting this message out into the public space to offer an alternative viewpoint for society. Mary you are so articulate and your arguments are very persuasive. Really enjoyed watching that.
She is sooo right when she pointed out that when the pill became available, pregnancies went up a lot higher because women began having sex. Through my life, I can honestly say that most every woman I knew in my 20’s became pregnant (unmarried) because they were unbelievably immature and irresponsible being on The Pill. They weren’t taking them precisely every 24 hours. And if they became pregnant, it was 50/50 who had decided to keep the child or to have an abortion. The sheer numbers of unmarried young girls having babies changed the world.
Originally the pill was for married women who didn’t want more children. Unmarried women couldn’t access it for some time. The pill was great for women who really didn’t want more kids but couldn’t rely on her man to pull out. But actually, birth rates fell so not sure what you’re talking about. Look at the fertility in 1960 compared to 1975….. it’s not been as high since the 60s and that’s thanks to the pill and abortion, as well as women wanting fewer children.
Men have never wanted to be husbands and fathers, societies used to force men to get married be responsible and take care of children. Men don't WANT t be good people.
Thank you Triggernometry and Thank you Mary Harrington. Feminist used to be part of my identity. But the longer I lived the more I realized what I was being told about women through history just didn't seem to add up to what I was learning through my own curiosity. Basically what I was realizing is what Mary is talking about. I've never heard anyone voice that opinion before. I thought I must be going a bit off. lol It's so refreshing to listen to this conversation. I can't wait to get my hands on this book! One more month for the U.S. Again, thank you Triggernometry for another wonderful conversation. And thank you Mary for saying what I couldn't.
I too have always cosidered myself a feminist (although not alligned to a particular movement), but have been doing a total 180 on many issues that I never would have forseen. Which has left me questioning so many things. I now look to biology / nature to guide my opinions a lot of the time, and by doing that I have had to revise my opinions, quite substantially.
This was a very interesting show. As an over 60 lady I’ve lived through the “liberation” of our bodies and am a grandmother of girls ranging from 20 to 4 yrs. She’s given a lot of food for thought. I have to say, that I’m happy that I don’t have to be raising girls right now. Also…. Let boys be boys! Parents need to stop instantly putting them in some descriptive identity slot at 4 yrs of age. If at 4 they like dolls, buy a doll, if they are into drawing get some crayons, if they love machines….
In a way, you are in opposition to A tenet of the talk. Mary talked about the "socialization of boys into men"; this cultural practice is in opposition to your suggestion of "if they like dolls, buy a doll". Actually, boys need to be socialized in a way to become "men" of society that up holds certain customs and mores. Just a thought.
I'm your age too. Raised by the Silent Generation, grandparented by the Greatest Generation, being of the Baby Boomer Generation. We can remember the lessons of the people before technology and now have lived through the decades of great change. She brings the lesson of looking back at the values of the past that brought rewards to the children of these generations before society began to dictate what people needed to think and believe and be forced to comply to a group edict. The are pushing agenda not individuality. Bless you, age 60s sister!!!
Being able to homeschool makes being a stay at home mom much more satisfying. At least for me. It think it’s mysonginist to have wrenched the children out of the homes. I know I can’t speak for everyone but this is something joined talks about. (Not to mention that by the time you’re 13 your away from your family at school and everyone is telling you you should be making out with boys and you can’t even tell your mom because she knows NOTHING about your life because you barely see each other). Moms and kids actually need each other. There is is. My unpopular truth. ❤
I think you are misplacing the source of why children are wrenched out of their homes. It’s the elites who created our modern education system. Not necessarily to provide knowledge but rather to increase productivity. The modern education system trains its population not how to think but rather to become cogs to a machine. We are taught early on to sit in one location and perform a task. To defer to an authoritative figure and trust they have your best interest in mind. To question is blasphemy and those that do are labeled as disruptive individuals and made outcasts. If it was truly an act of misogyny then it would only apply to girls but it has been applied to boys as well. It clearly isn’t a blanket statement but rather the overarching program.
Well done in homeschooling. It is the only way forward to protect your children from the indoctrination of what is happening. Have fun learning with your kids. You can teach real science and history. Kids are our future.
She’s right. I’ve been saying the same thing for 30 years …. albeit much less succinctly … and among my peers also to a very hostile audience. A knowledgeable and articulate guest. Thank you.
WATCH exclusive bonus content where *Mary* answers audience questions.
CLICK the link: triggernometry.locals.com/
CHAPTERS 👇
00:00 Intro
01:44 The Central Case of Mary’s New Book
12:53 What Does Feminism Mean Today?
17:30 The Unspoken Costs of the Sexual Revolution
26:00 Are Women Waking Up to These Issues?
31:56 The ‘Cyborg Revolution’
46:15 The Argument Against the Contraceptive Pill
53:32 How the Left React to Mary’s Case
1:08:05 What’s the One Thing We’re Not Talking About?
fascinating discussion. Thank you! we must get the bougie girls to wake up to biological reality. Hit em with the REALITY of biosphere collapse and climate crisis. A REAL calamity for them to focus their drama on. And start telling the bougie boyz, NO!
Not as smart as she thinks she is, smart though.
For one, if you're going to talk about the archetype of the porn actress, name it as an archetype rather can casually speaking for millions of women.
For two, how is the "coersion" for women in porn different than the coersion for men to do literally any job?
These people are trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater as surely as the feminists.
You fix coersion in pornography the same way you fix it with work in general - an economic floor for all citizens based on GDP that in America would look like 12k year ubi replacing welfare plus an available to all Easy Jobs program, 23k a year 32 hrs a week of self driven socially positive work (reading, writing, planting trees, learning math, etc) that is publicly reported and doubles as both accreditation builder and public resume.
Are you on Rumble?
Feminism is the creation of women and all the consenquences of it are to be blamed on women!
Harnesss Riscallous Because they are women and they allways play the victim!
Totally agree: almost all women have always worked. In the rural areas, in the urban workshops and also in factories since early industrialisation. The idea that women "entered the working force" after WWII is only true for the Western upper middle class
I agree. It was also technology that encouraged women to work outside the home, the invention of the modern washing machine for example saved women from two days of solid work within the home, just to have clean clothes.
My mum worked in a factory in WW2, in munitions.
Lots of women worked during WW2 doing jobs which men had done before being conscripted. I've heard it argued that the baby boom was encouraged to free up jobs for returning soldiers.
My great grandfather didn't want his wife to work because he saw it as difficult and dangerous for her. His parents were slaves and I that was what made him to think that way. So he had his own business so he could allow my great grandmother to work from home.
Women also worked in factories in WW1. Even in the Middle Ages women took over whilst men risked their lives at war
I was a stay-at-home mother of 4 children & also home educator. One aspect of being at home is isolation because the houses around us would empty in the morning with people going off to work.
It is terrible that people buy expensive houses that are empty so much of the time. We had a small house & used it all day to the max. We had no holidays & no luxuries but
those things are not important. It would be so much nicer if we had communities around us & we could support each other as used to be the case . Then every one is valued
& integrated.
Many things that are taboo about what this woman terms “feminism of care,” particularly within conservatism:
1. It is the hardest work you will ever do, physically and psychologically. I could tell you straight off this woman is not a mother. Just as out of touch as any other academic.
2. The suffragettes were pro-life Republicans. Eventually, they were shafted for the black male vote. This is sad, as these women were all abolitionist Christians as well.
@@suigeneris2663 She has a daughter.
@@marty9011 I stand corrected then. She is an academic, tho?
Community and support is found at a church. I recommend it, it’s wonderful in more ways than one!
@@kristinrichmond8185 Absolutely agree !
My mother and her six siblings grew up on a farm during the Great Depression. The boys worked in the fields with their father, while the girls worked in and around the home with their mother. Everyone had a job, and the success or failure of the farm depended everyone doing their job.
I am not from the US but I live in the south of Europe. Back in the WW2 years when my grandma was a kid, she was in a family consisting of sisters. Everyone was expected to do everything to help family survive. There was no luxury for having distinct roles for males being out in the fields and females at home. In all eras, the key word is 'survival' not 'this is my role and I only have to do that'.
But that's logical, post modern post industrial isn't logical. It doesn't have to be
Now days people have 2 kids and a home full of appliances. These days stay at home moms aren't spending their days mothering once the kids are grown, they maybe mother for 20 years, with a life expectancy of 80, that's a nice easy ride. Which is exactly what many people think. They don't want to be looked down upon, I understand why, but if all you do once the kids leave is cook for one man, it doesn't leave much for others to look up to.
Like the opening song in Fiddler on the roof, Tradition, "everyone knows who he is, and what God expects him to do."
Yeah, it was called teamwork. Which is what families, marriages, local communities, and so on, used to be based on.
Enter the century of self, the narcissistic age, and we see the breakdown of all of those, along with common purpose and meaning.
When she speaks about elite women not being able to imagine bad actors, it rings true to me. I had a conversation with my sister in law about this topic and pointed out that some of the men, not all, but some of them are acting out of hatred for women. She really thought I was being a low class mouth breather. I believe Mary is correct in her assertion that there are many pushing for this movement who are naive about the cost to women not in the higher rungs of society. the sad part is, they can't be told, in my experience there is no convincing them. A trucker honking his horn and screaming "hey baby!" is a misogynist, but a man who changes his identity to a female, climbs into a boxing ring with a woman, and breaks her skull, is deemed progress.
Right. I think Selfishness it the pivotal issue. Too selfish to concern anyone else.. too narrow minded to look at any topic other than the way it impacts them at the moment. Finally the results of Feminism is coming back to bite Women.. and only now Women care??? Fun Fact: Women did this to themselves.. all while DESTROYING what took men 100s of years to build. Women are DESTRUCTIVE in their Selfishness. They deserve far, far, worse than they are getting! Feminism has killed, ABORTED, more people than Hitler did by a long long shot... Feminism has DESTROYED more families as well. Finally it is coming back to bite Women and only now Women are speaking out ?? SELFISHNESS to the extreme!!
Yup just great for women eh. So stupid.
Again, the road to hell is always paved with good intentions.
This rings true for everything and everyone. Those who live more by empathy, and by proxy push their idea of empathy on others, over any form of selfishness create hell.
No. Wrong. Incorrect. Men withdraing from women is a means of Self-Protection. It sounds like she is projecting her own tactics onto others. So, lets do a quick analysis of Women's rights movement versus Men going their own way: the Women's Right movement exposed Women as being Narcissistic Beasts at a street level (attention seeking, gas-lighting, and bullying, as well as killing off their own babies for the sake of convenience.) As well as exposed Women as being seriously Machiavellian (dark triad) at a Political & Society level. NOW, compare Women's personality traits to that to the males in the Men' Rights movement where: Men are going their own way MGTOW, they are Going John Galt, are on a Marriage Strike, and many are not dating or interacting w Women at all -- these practices that men are using are called Avoidance or "Gray Rock tactics" , purely passive tactics, non-interactive tactics, that one is counseled to use when faced with Narcissistic people .. or to use when when interacting with any Dark Personality disorders -- Yes, I am saying that the majority of Narcissistic and Dark Personality people are Women .. and that Men are the opposite: Men are the kind and generous ones, who are withdrawing as a means of Protecting themselves from the EVILS of Dark personalities as well as the Legal system and Political system those BEASTS have twisted the once fine county into. Label me: John MGTOW Galt because Leftism, Marxism, Feminism, and the entire system doesnt deserve honorable men.
It’s up to a woman not to fight the man in the ring, but if she chose to fight him she better be ready for what’s coming.
No one is forcing anyone to participate in something they aren’t comfortable, the majority are doing things because of money and prestige.
Watching Constantin and Francis listening intently, asking good questions and not talking over their guest is a sign of really good interviewing skills
I agree, they probably don't agree with her too much, but they are still interested...was thinking that too at least. Definitely a pretty interesting point of view for sure.
It’s literally just the bare minimum lol. We’re such a disrespectful culture that even the bare minimum is seen as above and beyond. Sad.
@@christopherpierce4344 I also get the sense that she is holding back quite a bit.
I think they were stunned by what she was saying , even uncomfortable ,
@@lorrainericardo8680 well let's just appreciate that Konstantin didn't try to scold her for being too direct and tell her to be nice like he always does with Posie Parker when she says things he doesn't have the balls to say
Satay at home moms that really throw themselves at it are a threat to commodity. I started a garden and canned massive amounts of food, I made my own babyfood, I cloth diapers and laundered them myself. My goal for staying home was to offset as much money as I could that I wasent making by negating the need for money.
It's very hard, dirty, sweaty and at times nasty work. No one can tell me I dont work because my work is not commodified!
I also learned to bake bread and make pasta....now when we grocery shop all I buy is ingredients...I buy nothing prepared. Nothing processed. All at once, there can appear to be nothing to eat, while in reality, i can make anything my family might want. I haven't yet, but I've been looking at recipes for cheese its. My goal is to not need to buy anything but the ingredients I can't grow and preserve myself.
I take being a housewife very seriously. And I prefer housewife to stay at home mom because my work is not just for my child. I work to care for my husband every bit as much, and he works his ass off for us😍
@@jacquelinealthoff5842 I applaud you! I'm a man and I love cooking and I've learned to make my own pasta, bread, etc., and now I'm especially glad I did, because my wife is severely handicapped, so I'm the one who cooks and does all the domestic jobs. Fortunately, I work as a translator, so I can work from home in front of a computer, which also is vital for our marriage, as my wife can't live by herself (she can't even roll her chair) and needs help with everything from toilet to adjusting her position in bed to sleep. And yet, she's my best friend, I'm crazy proud of her, as she's extremely intelligent and overall a wonderful person I admire deeply and feel very privileged to be married to.
@@jacquelinealthoff5842 Outstanding. To all those angry, bitter women offering nothing to modern relationships and demanding to know, "where all the good men" have gone.... they've married women like Jacqueline.
And I'll add, before any feminists go off about how this woman is victimized and oppressed, you can clearly see she's happy and fulfilled with being a good wife and mother who does her part to care for her family, and I'd bet a handsome wager her husband not only works his ass for them, but probably treats her with the utmost respect.
Agree that maintaining a home and family is work! Thank you for sharing your life and skills with us.
If you don’t feel comfortable sharing I totally understand but I want this so bad. How does your husband support your family? Does he work 2 jobs? Do you live in an apartment? My (soon to be husband) and I live together, he makes we both make about 23/hr, are extremely frugal and still could not afford a child, especially not on a single income
Factual and pragmatic rather than political and emotional, I listened to the whole thing with fascination.
As an ex-Muslim woman, im glad I live in a free society.
I don't want to be like my mother !!
The first university in the world was made by a muslim woman.so the problem is not islam sis.
Harrington is a brilliant woman and the longer I listened to her the angrier I got. I became angry over the fact that mainstream media has shielded us from legions of amazingly smart people, people who have insightful and pertinent commentary on our world, ie people like Harrington. Triggernometry and many others are laying waste to the mainstream media and the snobby subculture that staffs it, thank god.
Mary Harrington was a delight to listen to and a breath of fresh air.
MSM = brainwashing poison. In case the covid debacle didn’t convince us already. This is not a democracy.
I agree there's a a lot of nonsense in the public discussions on gender issues these days.
But I am stopping when the opening remark is so idiotically bad.
She said in respect of birth control _"so the contraceptive pill is the first transhumanist technology it's the first major widespread, um, social you know biomedical Intervention which aims not at fixing something which has gone wrong with normal Health but upgrading normal."_
Sorry but that is utter BULLSHlT. People have been practising various forms of birth control going all the way back to Ancient Egypt. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control
@@tonywilson4713 Please review the words 'major' and 'widespread' in your dictionary and try to re-read that sentence, maybe it will make more sense then.
@@tonywilson4713 I think you missed the point. Of course there have always been various forms of birth control - mostly inconvenient at best and downright dangerous at worst. She is referring to an almost universally accessible method that could be relied upon to a degree never before even dreamed of.
Even a little over 50 years ago, as I approached adulthood, my mother's words to me - basically warning me off sex before marriage - were that "hot water and whisky didn't work" as they hadn't worked when she was pregnant with me! So much for the ancient methods!
@@diatonicdelirium1743 Please don't be yet another pompous clown.
Its quite simply a bullshit claim that's more hyperbole than fact.
And to be sure I don't give a damn which side of the woke argument she's on. I am tired of the bad faith *FROM BOTH SIDES* of the woke discussion.
My wife is a homemaker and in a clique of homemakers. They not only make the home life great through their efforts, they make our community. That's something money cannot buy.
You got lucky!
What I found interesting of her argument was that the division between the home labor and professional labor is a relatively recent one (a result of the industrialization and modernization) and to me it seems the societies hasn't yet sorted it out and came back to equilibrium.
Because in the past being a homemaker wasn't just about doing a nice cozy home, apart from the rich bourgeois families who could afford it.
Poor women always had to work hard. But with the industrialization and professionalization of work market, they suddenly had this division between the home presence with children and the need to work which would be outside home. And many lower class women today still have to work, typically low tier jobs, outside home.
Being able to stay home andbe a homemaker is obviously also hard work (eg raising kids but even just regular work around the house) but at the same time it's also a privilege and a sign of social status.
They worked hard for no pay and no freedom..
Dad's can be great homemakers as well.
@@NightinGal89 How much freedom does an impoverished single mother have? We all choose the chains we wear.
Every stay at home mom I know (and a couple of stay at home dads) get asked constantly "When are you going back to work?". When I've pointed out that it's rude and condescending, I'm told to stop being sensitive. Society has become so messed up.
They are right to tell you to stop being sensitive. It's an assumption because most people go out to work.
That said, there is nothing wrong with staying at home. But the assumption that you wouldn't is simply a function of the work based society we live in.
It's not something to get worked up over.
@@diranshouse7061 Invalidating response as usual. Men are scum.
Sis, just answer them with this back question: "When do you go back to slavery". Money is a trade for your time. No time of your life can truly be paid with money. So make enough for the family but try to rely more on yourself. Don't trust society. Blessed be all the families who still use their time for their children and the home. ❤
Try being a minimalist man. People treat me with much disrespect, if not more than a woman. Why would I hold a career when I can simply have no costly desires? I would rather not contribute to societal problems than make enough money to fulfill the desires that create those problems. People complain their taxes go to funding wars, why do they not respect the idea then of not contributing any taxes at all?
@@jaednhowlar2359 You make a really good point. I think of how long it takes for me to get ready. I’m like… This would be shorter if I didn’t do all this crap! I also have skin issues and allergies so that’s why.
My mom and this woman are entirely of the same mind. So glad I had a solid mum to raise me with such logic ❤
Smart lady your mum
Mary Harrington is so incredibly astute and intelligent, and just absolutely fascinating! This is my favourite interview of all time on this channel 🙌 thank you for introducing me to Mary's ideas and work.💚
CORRECTION: WESTERN WOMEN.
Mary is astute indeed and more the pragmatic egalitarian rational feminist, rather than the unreasonable militant marxist feminazi that the upperclass society an media like to radicalize young impressionable college women with. 👍
@@Matt-zp1jn Unfortunately those words mean nothing to the rest of the world. China is definitely going to win over more Conservative countries like Saudi Arabia, Africa, Iran, and India and Capitalism is not gonna matter anymore.
I felt that she hasn't really broken any new ground. Most of what Mary Harrington says I could easily say was evident to myself 10 years ago - and is a common observation among most men I talk to. It was however refreshing to hear a woman saying it.
She's intelligent when it comes to keeping all societal focus on spurious and cyclical female issues so she can get everyone to pretend that men and boys don't have a serious lack of fundamental human rights.
Mary is a fantastic guest - so enjoying listening to her.
Super-articulate in a broad ranging, down to earth, sexually literate way - what a precious resource in our atomised ‘post-truth’ unconsciously cyborg era.
Yeah,loving and as the other commenter said she is very articulate. I'm not so I always admire that ability to convey something so clearly.
Yeah I totally agree as well
@UpperclassHomosexual Wow! That's quite wild that you did that so you could get guys. I must be low Machiavellian theb because I could never do that.
"Cyborg feminism" is genius.
Important discussion. As someone born at the cusp of the 1960’s it’s refreshing to hear someone speak on these issues with insight, clarity, wisdom… she’s saying what many of us have considered for years. We lived through it, without necessarily buying into it.
I'm a little younger, and I rejected the feminism of the 1970s as a child. I honestly could not see anything in it that was positive for women.
0:57:45 but isn't this the goal of the Marxists? They don't want women - or men - working in free market, volunteer capacities. They won't everything managed by the state. Look at how the British developed private charity in 18th & 19th centuries. Now you pay 50%+ in taxes. They nationalised moral behaviour.
I was born in the 80's and am a male, but in my life time life has never gotten easier or better. Smart phones and internet are a mask that life is easier, but these only very narrow aspects of life. The fundamental parts of life that are absolutely necessary, earning money, food, love and companionship, exploring interests and hobbies, none of these have gotten easier, all are tougher. I imagine been born in the early 60's you would of seen this occur far more than I have. It may not necessarily be you, I hope life has gotten easier for you, but if this is the case, look at the friends around you and how they are fairing in these aspects of life.
Karen Grignon, are you a feminist? And if you are, can you please tell me one thing in the western world that a man can do but a woman can't?
@@kingcosworth2643 do you watch many coming-of-age from the 80s & 90s? Just looks so liberating. I know they (we) had problems too, but so much fewer self induced problems vs today...
Feminism now appears to be "I want to do whatever I want and if you don't like it you're the one with the problem."
The authority of a man, the advantages of a woman and the accountability of a child
how come it appears that way to you, do you have an example?
Just like kids then, especially a teenage girl
Yeah, it's always been so since Seneca Falls
She concedes that feminists need to rethink what marriage means. But why, you secured everything that you wanted - don't you like it? Having won the game you know want to change the rules, is it because you don't like how it's turned out!!
Unfortunately men are walking away from the current state of marriage.
So either the original feminist concept can be seen to be incorrect or they've overplayed their hand as it is men that are walking away from / not seeking relationships.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, it can't have been envisioned that men would walk away, it was assumed that men would remain unchanged while the feminists rolled their dice.
Unfortunately it's going to take an equal force, equivalent to feminism for men to come back to the table and reconsider what's in it for them.
You reap what you sow, it's just surprising that men are so thick that its taken them 60-odd years to waken up to how skewed marriage is against them. They've finally realised that the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
This is for me the most thought-provoking discussion I have ever listened to on this channel. Harrington's humane observations based on her feminist principles serves to cut through the ideological ranting that unfortunately surrounds this important debate at the moment. Really enjoyed this with a lot to takeaway in terms of food for thought.
Me too.
@longjohnthilver Grow up.
@longjohnthilver Go back to the pub, have another pint and take your misogyny with you.
@longjohnthilver Bye. Have a good life.
@Long John Thilver woman thought they had it bad so society changed and now their more miserable 😂
"We need to give sex back the seriousness that it has". So true.
46:07
Tell that to men
@@Meandyouisnus She did say "we".
@@Meandyouisnus This is all about women being victims of their own choices. Stop blaming men.
@@Meandyouisnus Okay,... tell it to women. When you're transparently angry and blaming the issue on men, you're doing nothing to help solve the problem. There's no shortage of single, bitter, middle aged women who spent their entire youth sampling penises. If you pretend otherwise, you're lying to yourself.
@@Meandyouisnus Its funny my fellow men are stupid, women get mad at men for being stupid, get a pill giving them the opportunity to be stupid instantly celebrates women making the same stupid mistakes they wanted men to stop making... 🤣😂🤣 See why men and women who can actually act civilised and think critically wonder why that happened? Instead of damage control women agreed to make the issue twice as bad now both halves of the population partakes in it and celebrates it?..
Anyone who thinks you can do a societal about-face from gender norms that have been in effect for at least thousands of generations and not expect (hundreds of) years of resultant destructive chaos as a result, cannot be thinking critically.
The fact that human beings have survived for hundreds of thousands of years without any medical interventions at all should be good enough proof that something like the birth control pill isn't going to make much of a dent either way, but leave it to conservatives and trads to think that humanity is undone by something that has barely existed for half a century.
Feminists don't think critically
We get duped by false narratives generated by the elites - that it’s about ‘progress’ (profit) ‘education’ (organised childcare for the workers of the industrial revolution) ‘lifting people out of poverty’ (smashing community, resilience, sovereignty and agency) … The doublespeak predates Orwell’s 1984 - he just crystallised what he could see already happening . Huxley too…
Found the distinction between the feminism of freedom and the feminism of care a really useful one. We are now living in the aftermath of the feminism of freedom winning out over the feminism of care 💔💔💔💔💔… how sad for men that the caring feminine has been subsumed by the ‘freedom - loving ‘ feminine - observe how she veers now towards a parody of herself and her original intention- a chimera, a hamster on a wheel, a blow-up doll without roots or vision. What a timely conversation. Mary Harrington - you are causing seismic shifts in the gender conversation … 🙏🏼
@@elephantintheroom-francois494 My thoughts exactly.
I refuse to put myself in a position where I have no financial independence. I have been on the end of depending on another person financially only to be left begging, being without, lost opportunities, anger, manipulation and being controlled. I'm a wife and mom, but I have my own career and make my own money. Financial management is joint.
You picked the wrong man
Yes but it's the point. Right? That right man can be a shit man at some point in time? And you'll be completely dependent on him
💯% agree! S/he who has money has control.
Money = power = control
Absolute power (i.e. control/money) corrupts (eventually)
Any other argument is pure delusion!
Absolutely Chan T. I'm a woman doing a traditionally 'male' job. I've been fortunate to be able to make myself financially independent, own my home, cars, self-employed. I've done this as a reaction to three relationships gone wrong with men who presented as 'good guys' initially but became controlling, didn't like me earning more than them and not dependent on them. As a result I am resolutely single and without children but I don't see any alternative for the sake of my sanity and physical well-being.
By the very nature of having children it makes a women dependent - that is why choosing who you have kids with is such a big decision. I have an absolutely lovely husband but I still have my own bank account
Stay at home mums are underrated and underappreciated. These mums are the future builders. Children raised under a mother benefits vastly.
Stay home. Cook and clean. Unplug your brain. Teach your daughters to do the same. Saves a lotta $$$ on education costs, doesn't it? What do girls need to do anything more than have babies anyway?
And they wonder why these kids are having their breasts cut off.
isn't everything women do underrated and underappreciated ?
@Matt ???????
And underpaid, lol
More power to them ❤ But perhaps we should enable stay at home mothers with universal basic income? Why should we not support women to be good mothers if they choose to do so? ❤
Oh my God! Parents do want their kids to have abortions! Wake up! You're against abortion until your "Straight A" 15-year-old daughter gets pregnant. I can assure you the parents will drive her to the abortion clinic without thinking twice. I know a minister who did that. Same if it's your son who impregnates a girl. There go their studies and career, and that can't happen. A little bit more honesty, please.
I know you guys are too young to have teenage kids, but wait and see what life is really like. It's not pretty but it's better than having your kid's future cut short.
And that's the reality we deal with over and over and over again
So we either deal with it THERE or we deal with it HERE (or continue NOT)... STUCK & TRAPPED here...
Continue on, merry as we go ... or perhaps there's a different conversation to actually discuss two-gether 2 be had about absolutely everything from maybe... Just maybe fellas because it's you that seems to be the hurdle here really.... the beginning of time and that great big book you like to point out at all the time.... The part that's always left out....
36:20 Nailed it with re-thinking marriage about not being 24/7 romantic. Romance is nothing if your partner doesn't have your back when you need them. It's way more like a team scenario than a lovey dovey smoochy romance novel. "He didn't get me flowers on Valentine's!" So? Did he get you some Pepto at 2am when you woke up with food poisoning? People need to re-evaluate their expectations in relationships and in life - there are so many people unhappy because they think everything is supposed to be grandiose and magical.
I've been married for almost 20 yrs now and that's 100% right. I don't buy her flowers every week but when I do it's special. It's the stuff at 2am when ya have to go out for something when she's preggers and you just go. She was happy I had a guys gaming night and ordered us pizza. No guilt trips or silly childish twitterpation.
I also second your description.
If they have children, they should think of them first of all
It's unreal, how everyone just bought this bs with romance! Marriage is an economical solution of compiling resourses of individuals and maybe extended family to provide safety nets for each member and procreate and prosper! You gotta be bonkers to never think of this. Even secular Jews still think in terms of netting family a benefit from marriage, not butterflies in stomach.
You know there are men who buy flowers on valentine's day and buy medicine at 2 am for their food poisoned partner.
But women have been convinced that they should take the minimum possible. Like it's not possible that he takes care of you when you're sick and buy you a gift on special days, choose one!!
They do it when they have a good foundation and have been raised well (which rarely happens) and when they're in love.
My husband and I have used cycle tracking for 7 years. I have never felt in more control of my body. The ability to tell him no and the rush to be able to tell him yes. It definitely brings a rewarding aspect back to sex.
Healthier for your body too.
@@kc6810 yes but I don't use a calendar method.i use Creighton model. I'm currently breastfeeding and my cycle is all over the place. Plus I have PCOS.
The ability to tell him no? You always have the ability to tell him no unless you are in an abusive relationship.
@@katiez688 You can tell him no and same like he can tell no to you as a husband and go and find alternative for him. The sexbots are coming most men will choose those sexbots and replace women with sexbots.
You seem to have a very limited notion of the potential range of sexual activities which can satisfy both partners
Fascinating interview - I appreciate Mary pointing out that there are downsides to everything -- even progress! (however defined)
She doesn't call out where this comes from. Margaret Sanger, a Eugenicist created abortion and God basically punished the West for defying him
Amazing interview. I honestly think Mary is leaps ahead in her thinking about these subjects. Very refreshing! Thank you.
Just listening to her for a minute, I can tell she knows her stuff. She’s already thought about it in ways most of the world hasn’t even considered.
Many have considered, but too afraid of getting cancelled to say anything.
@@user-pc8ee8sx7v You give people more credit than I do.
@@glenncox9128 or I have smart friends.
There you go!SHE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT MEN!
One born every minute.
As a woman it is extremely refreshing to here another woman speak truth about what has been going on in our societies. Everywhere right now. That is why it is important that we also talk about morals and sins and the consequences of those sins.
And importance of washing the eyes with generous amount of holy water whenever we accidentally see something naughty.
sins? What are sins? Does law, science or common sense define some sin?...
Explain sin. What sins? You are talking like a Roman pope.
As a man of about 30, it gives me hope to know there are women who are questioning the tides of this rip in our society (pun intended, this woke progress is stupid and a rip tide to perdition.)
For those who are asking....
"You are not punished for your sins, you're punished by your sins...."
Everything she’s saying is spot on. My husband and I went against the culture of the 90’s and I went part time while my children were young. Years of sacrifice later…we don’t regret a minute. Our daughters are well adjusted adults with values and critical thinking skills that stand out in their generation.
In my 40’s I returned to full time work and now I’m a nurse, as well as serve in local government. I believe I have so much more to bring to the table because of my years of motherhood and marriage…
My siblings and I are a bit younger, but my sister did the same thing. Got married and had her first child at 20, second at 23. 23 years later, my nieces are WONDERFUL young women, my sister and brother in law have a great marriage, and she's working full time. The idea that women should avoid marriage and a family in favor of a career first is a sickening lie.
The key word in your reponse is "sacrifice." That is what love entails. Love is "wanting the good of the other" more than your own. This holds families and mariages fast!
Awesome! 🙏!
@@lisalapoint7022 AMEN!
I pray for a widespread revival of this wisdom.
I actually do believe we’re in the infancy of one already.
@@Rogueagent21 facts!
Ok for middle class women who had access to support cleaners, Gardiner's child minders etc. Disaster for working class women who had to work themselves ragged to pay for the higher mortgages and juggle all the child minding and shopping and house work. Disaster
I wish I could have heard this perspective when I was in my 20s. Never thought about birth control as the first step towards Transhumanism. It's been quite a gauntlet navigating as a woman. I had a doctor put me on the pill when I was younger and it messed up my health. I feel like I was part of a huge experiment between the sexes and women are paying dearly.
CHILDREN are the ones paying. Women get all these choices & independence. It's children who are paying the price.
It's very interesting seeing the results of 100 years of "progress". It's humanity's trail of tears to extinction.
@@Sngbrd1001 "I don't need anybody. I'm just gonna do ME."
"😰😰😰Why am I so lonely?😭😭😭"
@@matthewatwood8641 Right, men have no choice or responsibility at all, all on women.
The Liberal Left experiment has been very dissapointing.
She says if you are on the pill there's no reason to say no
Yes there is. You may not want to is a very fair reason
I was thinking the same thing. Also „Make sex dangerous again“ and „stick through unhappy marriages unless they are outright abusive“ are „solutions“ that truly are against progress. Not as in they prevent further progress but they undo what has been done and thus take back the literally sovereignty we have as women today. I was truly hoping that when she said „(all the good things we have today for women) comes at a cost“, she would offer us ways we could adress the rising issues around our failure to adapt to changing relationships dynamics. Not ways to go back in time and trade off for the issues of the past instead.
And I am saying that as someone who chose to be a homemaker. It was my decision and I love that it was. I grew up in Middle East where it was forced onto me by culture and circumstances and there I completely rejected it because that’s terrifying. When I managed to get out and it became a choice of mine, I could truly chose to do it because I love it and I care. One can’t bind someone by their circumstances to be a good wife and a mother without their choice unless a level of mental torture forces them submission to such fate. If I didn’t have access to the fertile management and divorce normalization that make me feel safe in the role of a wife, it would have been my lifelong sentence.
I find it hypocritical a bit that she talks about how elite women fail to see men who could be dangerous in reference to the trans movement. I think she fails to see what these men would be like in a society where we stick together for the kids through unhappy marriages, have a culture against contraceptives/abortion and hope for men to fraternize into educating each other into „gentleman“.
As someone who has seen marriage oriented cultures and upbringing as well as the open sex grounds of Berlin, I will choose sovereignty and responsibility over ensuring my safety any day over „make sex dangerous again“ and marriage oriented solutions to my safety
I tried the pill when I was in university as I was dating my 1st bf and it also helped my debilitating period cramps but I experienced side effects like irritability and depression so I stopped. I won't touch the pill again as the side effects are more hellish to deal with than my 1 day bad period cramps.
Also, I hate how a lot of modern feminists devalue women who choose to become housewives or stay at home mothers. Some of them have valid reasons of concern such as financial security in case the spouse dies/gets ill/infidelity/divorce, still it shouldn't warrant them to mock these women who love to be home makers. I have been a career woman and really ate a lot of feminist values but having been married and having a bad time with my health, thus making me into a housewife, I have come to appreciate how valuable being a housewife is and my own mom, who is a housewife herself, all of the things she taught me about femininity are all making sense. Family and its stability is my top priority.
Yeah. Messing with hormones is stupid. You need maybe 3 Brain cells not to fall pregnant😂
The population collapse is coming. So damn hard, it ain't funny. Nothing can be done. You ladys😁
Just say you are lazy and don’t want to work
This is stupid, since when did women have power to shut down boys clubs. Very silly woman
Older "conservatives" are not old people "clinging to old, traditional values." They people, like you, who have been exposed to life and learned its lessons, and now simply see the value that those who came before them saw.
She is fighting for women's rights, especially working and middle class women despite the hatred for her positions from the elites.
As she stated, those elites have NO clue about the real world since they're not exposed to it. It's not in their interests to see the huge differences between the sexes. I feel their opinion should carry no weight since it doesn't represent anyone outside that small fraction of other elites.
@@stephenthomas1492 yes
I agree, and I saw this split in 1970s between elevating the position of women in the home, to only valuing women in careers.
Lockdown policies and net zero policies are very class based too I think, as is the way they are promoted and supported in media.
Absolutely
It's so heartening to see women speaking up for women ❤ for too long, feminists have campaigned for women to be more like men. Thanks to people like Mary and Louise Perry, women's issues are being ventilated in the interest of traditional femininity
Funny, men have been saying this since the late 1990s....ever heard of Warren Farrell or Rollo Tomassi ? ...but then again, you ladies keep cancelling us because of mansplaining.
Bravo... your ignorance is now transparent to us all.
I agree
Feminist tell women that men are terrible no good useless violent thugs. While in the same breath tell women they need to be second rate men.
@@Yeetus223 Great point ! ...its the propaganda at work...whamen most affected !...lol
What a well spoken woman.
I adore Mary Harrington. She always has an interesting take on issues and causes me to think. Her level of intelligence, analysis, honesty, and fearlessness is so difficult to find.
So much of this interview resonates with me. I stopped bc because it was having such a horrible impact on both my mental and physical health. I was an adult when I started and only used it for a couple of years before I'd had enough, so I can't imagine what it must be like to be on it longterm from your teens. I'm now a sahm with 2 kids and the disconnect and dismissiveness from others can be very overt. Suddenly because I am not in the active workforce, nothing I say, think or do has any value, I'm so "lucky" to be a kept women and not do any "real" work! I have honestly distanced myself so much from the label of 'feminist' because it now stands for almost everything it should oppose - commodification of women, children and the removal of sex-based rights or even the recognition that we are a sexually dimorphic species! I have never come across the term 'cyborg feminism' but it certainly encapsulates this insane time we are living in. Great interview.
Good for you. Some people are not comfortable giving their partners financial power over them. But everybody is different.
For example, people would think it's important to maintain individuality and not confused motherhood with one's identity because it's a hat. And it's not unusual for women to be lost after a while. And work as an interest reflects and helps with individuation.
But also because humans aren't perfect, extra income can be helpful in case of an emergency or life threatening situation.
Furthermore, everybody knows the situation of the average married woman , she's the exhausted, ignored, underappreciated single married woman but nevertheless who likes to care what everybody thinks about her, so she puts up a fulfilled appearance on the outside.
And with all the horror divorce stories of formerly kept women who warn against that because of financial abuse and control,
eventhough there are exceptions and not all marriage stories are or end the same. People who look at generalities may easily roll their eyes at this idea of marriage as women empowerment.
But I think there's a need to respect everybody's choice.
The problem with feminism is they think they should rush in to save every woman, instead of just being open to those who allign with their ideas and letting be those who don't.
For example, there are women out there who hop from one abuse relationship to another.
But just because they do it doesn't mean feminism should feel obligated to stop them or feel upset if they go back to their abusive partners or even cover for their abusive partners.
Different women have different purposes in life and people's choices have to be respected. We are all adults.
I would listen to a stay at home mother and wife over a fake social climber . Stay awesome 😎 your kids will thank you for it .
It's a shame that SAHMs have as much voice in modern times as radical feminists lesbians had 40 years ago. I hope that women like yourselves will gecone more vocal and recognized for your value to civilization.
Thank you for this conversation. I am currently a stay at home mom to our four children. But I also homeschool them, get them involved in the community, and I am starting an shop this year! This is just one chapter of my life! Next chapter as my children grow, who knows! I am networking now in my community to be available for my next chapter.
Congratulations 🤗
Great job! I'm single Mum & into 2nd yr homeschooling my 9yr & next year my 11yr old. All the best on each chapter if your family 😊
Not as a prostitute, I take?
😀
Congratz & good luck!
Same here! Home-school and all the rest. I make ferments but am about to start selling fiber arts and other crafts at the fairs this summer. The foods I make are for barter only, since I can't sell food without a loicense- LOL. Even though my Amish neighbors sell food freely. Also.... am I the ony one that thinks it's weird that we're called "stay at home moms" now? I call myself a housewife.
This was really thought-provoking. I have become almost "alienated" from my social circle, because after leaving an abusive husband at a relatively young age I decided to remain completely celibate until marriage and refused to participate in modern hook-up/"dating" culture. I was 27 then and left before we had a chance to have children. So it has been nearly 5 years of celibacy now, and when I mention this people act like I am in a cult or something, even though I have a pretty good job in IT and also do a bit of freelancing in music (so both quite liberal environments). Many of my female friends are completely brainwashed by hook-up culture, and I tried to explain how it's harmful and toxic for women, but to no avail... There has to be a breaking point.
The same women participating in hook up culture are the same ones saying how bad men are, and they can't find anyone. They are distracted. You are doing great.
Interesting story, while I agree with you that this new culture is toxic to women, I also have a hard time not supporting birth control because so many future children were saved from unfit parents and a poor, traumatized upbringing. That's one aspect I wish was more talked about, the kids and the reality of unfit parents.
Weird how hookup culture I'd never toxic to men, only women.
🙄
@@sophieruby5893no its toxic to men too, what planet are you on. Open your eyes
@@jimijamesatlantian4423
My point is that it is only ever pointed out as being toxic to women. If it's bad for women, it's also bad for men.
A penny saved is a penny earned as they say. I’am glad that they pointed out you can earn money, but also stretching that money to build a life you want is an important part of the equation. We have choices and should prioritize our values. I personally love being a “trad” wife. I primarily work in our home caring for the family. With the main goal of stretching the money he makes to create the home we want. Of course at times we help the other one if they need. But for the most part we have taken on traditional roles. Our kids are thriving and we are very happy.
As a new mother, and someone who's had a nagging feeling for years that something is just *wrong* with society, I have such admiration for Mary Harrington for finally speaking about this. Louise Perry too. If I'd heard these arguments in my teens and 20s, I'd have saved myself a whole lot of misery.
Hate to break it to you but usually women in their 20’s would just tell people like this they are just old and to get with the modern times. Then continue to jill off with other feminist.
@@Yeetus223 Nothing as stubborn and fool hardy as someone 16 to 25 years old. The only hope is that people don't screw up too badly during this period.
Please take this right way. You felt something was wrong because you were a feminist and may still be. You even said so based off your comment. See, if you wanted to be part of the solution you would have married at 18 and took care of your husband. Instead you likely had a 304 phase and ruined your ability to pairbond. See the beta males and feminist in power knew what they were doing when they willingly shadowed you wahmenfrom all accountability and responsibility. Likely broke many men's heart(your ego and pride is gonna make you tell yourself that's a good thing) and only perpetrated more misery and suffering amongst others as well. I tell you all this in that if you take it correctly you will devote your life into teaching wahmen not to ruin themselves and men. Now that you are a mother it's likely you know that their not much more to life than what most 18-30 wahmen tell themselves that there is. God bless you and your new child☦️
I so agree
Took u a while to actually find a man and have a baby it seems
Very smart lady. Dripping with thought. I love the stuff she comes up with. "Rewilding sex" is such an interesting idea.
Read David Deida. Or
Listen to him on video…Rewilding sex is a great thought - possibly articulated by the tradition of Tantra a very long time ago. Great to update it with new terminology, and for a different audience … 🙏🏼
Can't wait to talk about rewilding sex at the next deep ecology workshop I attend. Talk about cat amongst the pigeons. The vegans will run away fast. I love what she thinks. This 1970s feminist agrees (with most of what she says).
@Zeno Whilst I agree with some of Mary's analysis and principles, 'rewilding sex' is not one of them. Women without recourse to reliable contraception ended up dead, injured, exhausted, and looking after enormous families they couldnt afford, were badly nourished and had less opportunity. Rewilding sex sounds great as a brand, but we have had 'wild sex' ie sex with high risk of pregnancy and we know what happens, we did it before the pill and we know the results. My grandmother had 11 children, her mother had 16, my other great grandmothers had 9 (great grandfather died relatively young) and 7, respectively. The great grand mother who only had 7 was an extraordinarily strong character.
My grandmothers and the great grandmother with whom such conversations were had with me or repeated from other relatives all thought that the pill was desirable and wished they had it back in the day, despite loving their children intensely. Wild sex is great when you can afford to either withhold sex in your relationship and still trust it to hold, or can afford all the pregnancies and children that come along over decades you are fertile. Probably a different story when you marry in your late 30s or 40s compared to marrying when you are highly fertile in your early 20s!
@@shelleyphilcox4743 I agree. I never took the pill and dont like it but I have a caring and reasonable husband. Many women arnt so lucky and would end up with unwanted children or aborting.
@@shelleyphilcox4743 not what she meant, ridiculous strawman
I love how she describes the “hot sauce” that desensitization leads people to descent into such debauchery.
Won't it always be the case that poor women will continue to have to go out and do the grunt work for society, while the better off women are able to stay home with their "home industries?"
There was a time, there was a couple of generations in the twentieth century when working class wives could afford to be stay at home mothers. Then feminists spoilt it.
@@grannyannie2948 The 1950s and 60s were basically the height of middle class culture and freedom.
@@Winterascent The "middle class" means something different in the US often than Australia and Britain, where it means the educated class of doctors and lawyers etc. So I wasn't clear on what you meant. I was thinking more of the concept of productive families. I have ancestors who were doing these things in the 1880s, a husband/wife team of horse trainers, he trained them to the saddle, she to the side saddle. And they raised the children together. When I was younger I knew lots of elderly ladies who could describe life in the early twentieth century. Married women were highly productive within their own homes and farms throughout the period, but they did not work outside the home after marriage.
Mary echoes many of the same thoughts I've had over the last decade or so, but at a much much deeper level. Excellent conversation!
I could listen to Mary speak all day. She is so clear and precise in her language. What a well-spoken and articulate speaker! I'm glad you guys had her back and please do so again in future when she develops her keen insights on feminism further as time goes on.
Thanks for mentioning sticking a tough marriage out (unless there is violence). So many people just throw divorce around as an option and tear familes apart because they want to find personal "happiness" whatever that means.
I’ve been single 20 years but my ex was alcoholic it was terrible , he was crazy
I agree. My dad was an alcoholic. He was a total drain on the family for many years, I used to beg my mom to leave him. She stuck through and he is now about five years sober and I feel like I have a dad for the first time in my life. He’s taught me the meaning of forgiveness and redemption.
@@TheAmericanFrugalHousewife wow!!!! I hope my kids get to experience that with their dad.
That’s not true 50% divorces is because of abuse, and abuse manifests itself in many forms emotional psychological, financial etc Not only physical, and any of those forms can escalate to physical violence and murder any time.
So people don’t just divorce out of the blue, there are always very good reason why they shouldn’t continue and why it’s the best for everyone.
Many women live in abusive marriages and unable to leave because they depend on a man financially. They have been cheated on repeatedly, beaten, disrespected and still continue because they are trapped.
@@TheAmericanFrugalHousewifeh good grief, not every alcoholic sobers up, many die alcoholics.
This is like committing yourself to many years in prison, never.
Love her, all thoughts I have had myself, you'd be surprised how many women who have lived through the sixties would agree.
This was one of the most fascinating, insightful & eye-opening interviews I have seen in years.
Thank you!
I'm 58. My parents were born in theud 20s . There's was a probably not a big romance marriage. For economic and cultural they stayed together. As their child I lived in an aura of constant resentment and unhappiness. I think that is why I made the decision to never marry. They were both good people that should have been happy elsewhere and I probably would have been happier.
My mother traditionally stayed at home, packing knickers. Work was high up, she could look after me at the same time. It was miserable. My Dad drove a truck and that was far more fun. So I ended up in the really hard manual job of stuffing containers, drove forklifts and vans, ran my own haulage Company for 28 years till I retired.
I've also never liked children, even when I was a child. I remember watching a programme where a woman had been persuaded that she did want a baby by her family, when she said she didn't. Because you know, you fall in love once they are born. She didn't, she cared for her son but didn't love him. It was incredibly sad for all concerned. I remain incredibly thankful that I lived in a time where I could have contraception, though the pill was not for me.
On a broader point, I do entirely agree that men do need more of their own space and need to be allowed to be more male. Men and women are different...though I've always been in male jobs because hard dirty physical work was where I was happiest.
I don't think that recognizing norms necessarily means rejecting those who don't easily take them on. It's fine to leave the 99 to find the one lost sheep, unless the 99 get eaten by wolves while you are not doing the boring work of taking care of the average individual. Or perhaps better put: the 'diverse' are interesting and valuable, and the mavericks are fine, but they should not be given unfettered control of the whole enterprise.
Have you considered that your family was just low on the happiness scale? Sadly, the family was so bad at being inspired and excited that it died out as per Darwinian theory. Being poor sucks, but we have to acknowledge that no amount of equity, equality or wealth will resolve the fundamental humanity of us all. Some of us are less suited to society than others. 🤷♂️
I grew up with feminist and feminism and was a dues paying member for decades.
It is absolutely the most supportive group of people for me and others whatever my goals have been in what ever circumstances I have been in. People pretending the feminist movement are trying to impose one type of lifestyle for all women, at best are wrong.
This is one of my favorite interviews on your channel! Thank you so much for introducing me to this fabulous woman! Her clarity and connecting the pieces of our broken society were just wonderful.
I had to scroll so far to find any comments that even slightly challenged her points. That is not a good thing. It's too echo-chambery in here. I mean one of this woman's arguments against birth control was that girls/women who got railroaded into sex would have a better excuse to stop the man if they weren't on birth control...that's pretty wild. LMAO maybe they'll do better at stopping the man! And if I'm wrong they'll just end up pregnant and trapped for the rest of their life teehee
The part about why families should stick together for support rather than giving up when the romance fades hit home for me. A few years ago my wife asked for separation without any grounds other than boredom/lack of spark. Then covid and the cost of living crisis hit, I got a good promotion, and it dawned on her (too late) that it’s not all about being whisked off your feet. She asked if we could give it another go.
Perhaps if I’d watched this video beforehand I would have said yes, for my own sake as well as our daughter’s. Because the other thing Mary said, about men losing their entire support group when they lose their family, is so very true. I have a few work friends and little family, so my contact with other people is hanging by a thread.
It isn't easy to make friends, but I say you can go out and find new friends. Sports and hobby are always a good route. There are odd clubs for hobbies, my friends husband goes to a Scalextric club every week as an example.
As a child of unhappily married parents, don't beat yourself up. I grew up in an atmosphere of hidden resentment. Both my parents were good people, but they should have split up and been happier.
I’m sorry to hear about that brother. May I suggest finding a good church. I live out of country, and I’ve never had such a close, caring group of men than at my church. It also helps my two boys make good friends beyond the kids at school (which can often be a mixed bag).
In any case, here’s wishing you and your girl well.
@@Perichoresis777 or an activity group.. Any team sports!!! This way you can meet more people who are from different religions and backgrounds who then can share interesting stories about their lives.
Sometimes when you are in your feelings and listen to social media and entitled people. Some might think that's applied to every household. But critical question was this ask without any merit?
The further society goes away from Christian values the further we will fall. God designed men and woman to have separate jobs
A very interesting discussion.
I wanted to add a small point about women (or indeed men) who choose to be home makers rather than (re)entering the commercial work force. My wife and I discussed our careers when we got married and she shared that one of her goals was to be a mother and be able to give the majority of her time to the raising of our children. She manages our money, she maintains our home, she is the teacher of our children and despite my best efforts she is able to give more to the raising of our children than I do. One other thing that she enables is that I can do a job where I sometimes am away from home overnight but am still able to be a father and have a stable family. If she was not there I would have to quit my job immediately in order to manage my life and effectively parent my children.
So what I am trying to say is that we are a team. We do different things but the income we can gain is made possible by both of us working together. Same for our home, we couldn't have our home, children and family if it was not for both of us even though she is more visible in part of our efforts and I am more visible in a different area of our efforts.
I do feel that companionship is very healthy for me and probably for many. Yet sometimes I feel people try to suggest that my wife is not ambitious enough or feminist enough or in some way is missing out on 'real life'. Personally I find her work necessary and even in some matters heroic.
Bravo, sir. You sound like my life partner man (husband not on paper). Many people's partnerships are not so appreciative of each other. It works well for us. We're proud of our little family 💕
I loved your comments. But when I was home, I felt I was living “real” life, and I felt sorry for my husband who spent his days in the workplace, where behavior, emotions, etc. must be tailored to keeping a job/getting a better job. I used to say that I spent my days with people who loved me more than anything else in the world (the same for me), not to mention that I had pretty much complete control over how I spent my time. My husband, on the other hand, had to adapt himself to the standards of his workplace, right down to how he dressed. This is why people heave a sigh of relief when they step into their homes at the end of a workday ~ this is where they can be themselves, where real life lives. Frankly, I think hardworking, faithful, responsible husbands are the unsung heroes of at-home motherhood. My only regret is that I didn’t appreciate my husband more all those years ago ~ although I have told him many times since. All the best to you!
36:41 This point is absolutely correct.
My grandparents on my mother's side divorced, however, my grandfather stayed with my grandmother and helped raise them as he knew how hard it would be if he simply left. He grew up without a father. They still live together to this day. Even though their relationship didn't pan out romantically, they cared enough about their children to stay together.
Taking responsibility is key.
Gotta put the kids first.
Wouldn't taking the romance out of marriage be dangerous? Wouldn't that make marriage solely a business, which is how we've gotten into this 'individualized' state of marriage in the first place? Wouldn't taking the romance out of marriage also lead to infidelity? A pragmatic approach to running the family I can agree with, but it must start with love for one another because that then becomes a value of the family as a unit.
🤔 good point must start with love. But due to media culture people maybe have the wrong idea of what that love should look like in daily life, you can’t have butterflies every minute of every day for 20 years
I think our idea of love is also skewed. So much focus on possessing and merging and less on respect, honesty and trust these days. Sexual attraction and chemistry is important but that won't carry the relationship through the difficult times. It's about building a life, being teammates, caring about and accepting and respecting each other's and honouring each other's differences and needs... So hard to find these days
I cannot agree more
I think the sentiment Mary is saying is: If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.
Romance is something that is worth putting effort into, but perhaps it shouldn't be the entire foundation of a marriage.
Wonderful interview. It’s good that you’ve given the platform for this type of discussion which I feel is desperately needed. Congratulations to Mary Harrington for being brave enough to put these ideas out there. I’m sure she is getting a lot of pushback because it’s so rare to hear this type of information in this day and age. She is a true feminist in my mind. She is obviously educated, courageous female, who is speaking her beliefs, which do mirror other women who may not be as qualified to say these things and would be dismissed for not knowing what they speak of by the “true feminist”. Wishing her success.
very good content. Very thoughtfull and thought provoking, Thanks a lot.
Enjoyed listening to Mary Harrington. But what really stood out to me in this interview is how Francis and Konstantin listen intently with their guest and engage on spot with the topic at hand. You both don't override the conversation for the obvious purpose of directing the conversation. Much appreciated.
Oh dear, I agree with a lot of things Mary says, especially concerning the pill, which I don't take. Also surrogacy etc. Not with stay with the father of your kids for the sake of the kids. Sorry that is stupid she obviously never was in an unhappy marriage. Divorce was something many people fought for and is absolutely necessary in many cases. What I don't agree with is the way they treat divorced men in many cases. Also a woman needs to be able to make money otherwise she will always be at the mercy of anyone. Stay at home mum is fine if you have money not so much if you don't. I think the work market should be changed that's what we should work on.
Agree. Part of the modern marriage procedure needs to be a discussion about what the couple will do if they divorce in particular in regards to their kids. For many men this would be a deal breaker which, if discussed with a professional before the wedding, would help women clarify their own responsibilities better and understand men better. It would also mean divorce is less harmful to the children as partially prepared solutions would already be agreed upon.
I was just thrilled to hear there's a generation of women who are not just taking birth control to run around and have wonton and therefore worthless sex. The best sexual equality to be hoped for in life is that both sexes would take sex seriously. It will always carry with it spiritual, emotional, mental,physical consequences. They are not escapable. Trying to negate that fact dehumanizes us, devalues life. Abortion is a natural end result . euthanasia next....
Good that she's done research and a book on this! I just ranted about it in home few years ago. I'm a stay at home mom. Productive households I have ranted about more recently. And more about the tax obstacles of it. How we as people have been cut at our natural autonomy to be industrious at home! Just the intent of the activity being more than a hobby it becomes a company with a need for accounting and all these hurdles. Not that it's actually profitable! Or making a single dime. Just the intent of trying to make a little money.
I took the pill for a little while in my twenties, but it didn't sit well with me. I felt I was preventing my body from doing what it was meant to, and stopped taking it. I adopted the rhythm method, combined with the withdrawal method, and had two planned children. I'm very happy with my decision.
The irony. A white female Eugenicist named Margaret sanger created abortion to eliminate black children only for the most users to be Western white women. It's almost like God was punishing you for defying him
But you didn't replace yourself. Replacement only happens with three kids per woman.
My wife and I both felt the same; I didn't want her to modify and chemically negate her normal biological functions; it just seemed unnecessarily dangerous and ignorant; when safe and responsible natural means, that has been practiced since the dawn of time; was much safer for her "Reproductive Health"; ... we too; used the 'Rhythm Method', combined with the withdrawal method, and We too; had two planned children; We are both just starting our 70's; life has been good! Take Care!
She actually did replace herself and her husband. Two kids from two people, a simple replacement. A third kid and other additional kids would be adding to the population.@@somercet1
Best quip ever, "BDSM is the vegan bacon of sex." I could not love her more. So glad you had her on. Thank you.
Yeah I wonder how much hot spice she had to use for her lesbian adventures she mentioned, because you will be hard pressed to find more of a vegan option than that if the danger of pregnancy is the bacon. Besides the fact that I don't remember ever hearing more distasteful idea than that we would be chasing the danger of pregnancy... what a colossally tone deaf idea. She reminds me one of those chat bots that sounds so intelligent until they occasionally slip up and say things like 2+2=5. Overall what a buffoon she comes across as, I wouldn't be surprised if she had autism of some sort..
I am not very aware, but isn't it supposed to be very extreme? 🤨
@@thetechnocrat4979 Bacon? Yes. Extreme deliciousness. Damn...
Vegan bacon, tasteless cardboard, not a very good comparison
That's not what she said. She said it's the hot sauce.
A very risky argument indeed. Mary speaks very well and makes sense here and there - but she fails to take into account self-preservation for women.
An example - I witnessed domestic abuse as a child. I witnessed pedophilia with stepdad no1 and alcoholism with stepdad no2. I dated a man for 10 years before we got married and my then-husband abandoned me when our daughter was just two weeks old.
Financial independence isn't something women want for "power" we want it for survival. It's our reaction to ill treatment by men, not because we are power hungry trying to be more like "men". We are looking after ourselves and our children. Her argument completely dismisses the HUGE population of single mothers. I imagine Mary has had wonderful male figures in her life, which is great, but is not the experience of everyone. Her theories come across as blanket statements.
The cyborg argument - Contraception isn't something new or even something feminist. The first birth control methods date back to ancient Egypt. Four thousand years ago! Nothing to do with industrial age. Would we say we are cyborgs for vaccines too, seeing as we are preventatively medicating ourselves? She didn't even mention when men get the snip 0_o
Too many holes in this argument.
I think the true feminism is not about sleeping around, but it is in your power to say no to those men who are not willing to take on the responsibility of the children you could create
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽All of this
Amen!
Contraception is not about sleeping around, many married women and men use contraceptives.
You don’t want to get pregnant each time you have sex with your husband.
I completely disagree with the attitude of "if you want to you can *be a SAHM." It's extremely classist and it's not always possible. It's not easy. It's not economically feasible, especially for low income women.
It's not feasible for most women.. Not in today's financial climate. And those that chose it without money of their
own better pray their relationship lasts. It is a poverty trap. And that's the problem.
Francis said something towards the end (and Mary expanded on it) which I've been saying for 30 years: that damned word "just" in the phrase "just a housewife and mum". I hate it. I hated it as soon as I realised what was wrong with it and I've hated it ever since. It's the direct result of feminists shaming women who use the _choice_ that feminism's supposed to have given them, telling them that it's a low-effort, lazy, cop-out and they aren't fulfilling their potential. You'd see women on TV game shows describe themselves as "just a housewife" or " just a mum" and then blush and hang their heads as if they'd let the side down, as the host quickly moved on to someone more interesting. There is NOTHING easy about raising children and it's a very important job: possibly the most important job in society. The fact that it doesn't attract a high monetary income says more about the limitations of capitalism than it does about motherhood. I'm a fan of capitalism (just not a blind one), but we need better ways of measuring and rewarding added value in all it's various forms.
We HAVE good ways to capitalise the housewife. Your kids get morals and quality parenting, and have a much better chance of a good future, allowing them to compete better with their peers in the capitalist marketplace. It’s a longer term investment but all strong investment takes time to realise a return. All the data shows that a boring nuclear family has the best odds of future success for kids.
You already have the answer to your wish. It’s just that the pay packet of your kids is harder to see than pay for your housewife.
Many years ago whilst being prompted for answers on a finance form or something like that, the man asked for my occupation and my response was "just a housewife" he told me he would put me down as "domestic engineer" because my occupation entailed so many different duties and there was no 'just' about it. I held my head high for years off that one comment on my choice of being a full-time mum and homekeeper.
@@Suzco123 That's excellent - good man! 👍
In the early seventies I decided not to take the pill and had 3 children between the ages of 20 and 25 because they’re the best childbearing years. I studied for a Masters degree and went to work when the youngest was 5. Never said, “ I’m JUST a mum “ , but very proudly announced , “I’m a kept woman.”
Well said. Nurturing the fellow human beings in your care should be the most highly regarded profession, especially when you go about it as your most important job.
Her observation that BDSM and other introductions of violence into sexuality may be due to the risk of childbearing being missing from contracepted sex is incredibly evocative.
Yes, I never considered that point. Very thought provoking interview.
Vegan Bacon with Hot Sauce is forever burned into my brain.
BDSM = VBHS
How to say this, hasn’t there always been a certain amount women throughout history who were willing to do some questionable sexual things ?
The oldest job in the world and all that, although maybe it just massively increased those type of behaviours ?
@@adsldaveProstitution is not the oldest job; it's the oldest form of sllavery. With that in mind, ask yourself if this ancient woman was actually willing.
The problem is BDSM didnt start with the pill; it has existed for thousands of years
“They are all positives ; but not without cost” I would say they are all positives to an individual at the expense of society on the whole and at the cost of the individual fetus/baby/human being.
Mary Harrington is a treasure
I agree there's a a lot of nonsense in the public discussions on gender issues these days.
But I am stopping when the opening remark is so idiotically bad.
She said in respect of birth control _"so the contraceptive pill is the first transhumanist technology it's the first major widespread, um, social you know biomedical Intervention which aims not at fixing something which has gone wrong with normal Health but upgrading normal."_
Sorry but that is utter BULLSHlT. People have been practising various forms of birth control going all the way back to Ancient Egypt. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_birth_control
@@tonywilson4713 I think she means pharmacologically. Yes, preventing birth is not new, but this method is.
@@amandaowen5091 Its still a ridiculous statement and that's what I am really getting fed up with in the woke public discussions. There's just so much hyperbole and bad faith claims from *BOTH* sides.
I don't know about you but I an getting fed up with the endless discussions when we have some far bigger issues to deal with.
I'm an engineer and the energy crisis is only going to get so much worse than it is because there's been so much public BS that the real issues are being lost in all this endless cacophony.
@@tonywilson4713"Major widespread biomedical intervention", the first industrial level pharmacological upgrade... sounds about right to me.
Did she claim there was no birth control before that? No, of course she did not claim that at all.
@@biocykle AS I have said to others its just another chunk of worthless hyperbole in a BULLSHlT public discussion where *BOTH SIDES* seem to think that if they scream louder with worthless hyperbole they are somehow champions.
I'm tired of *BOTH SIDES* in this worthless woke garbage pile of crap.
There's some real issues to deal with that are worth discussing. You know just some minor things like:
The Energy Crisis
The Climate Crisis
The Refugee Crisis
The start of World War 3
A lot of these arguments overlap with those made by Germaine Greer in her 1984 book Sex is Destiny which was incredibly insightful about women’s lives - particularly less privileged women - and which put her out of step with much of 2nd wave feminism. I read that book as a very young woman and it had a huge impact on me.
Stop blaming all feminists for this mess. it is young feminists. Older women (I am GenX) have been hitting our heads against the wall over what younger women have done to all the advances we and previous generations of women made.
This is such an thought provoking conversation.
One of my favorite interviews you guys have ever done. Mary should definitely become a staple guest on trigonometry, which it sounds like is going to be the case.
My wife and I just listened to the whole podcast, and find Mary's views to be basic common sense. We are both 45 (older Trigg viewers). We both feel our generation was kind of in a sweet spot where women could embrace the freedom/opportunity of feminism, but men and women basically conformed to the commitment of marriage and family.
Life can be cruel and deeply unfair, but our marriage and family has oriented both of us and enriched our lives. Marriage is not for everyone, but there is a reason to, as Mary says, keep it a covenant.
One small quibble to her solutions would be to make life marginally more affordable for young, married people. It is hard to form families and have children when skilled people can't afford to live.
By design of our wannabe feudal overlords
I'm 73
Marriage is for everyone. Its about letting go of ur personal desires and commitment. What ur trying to say is that some people cant commit to someone else because he or she is too selfish to commit to them.
This is the BEST interview you guys have ever done. What a wonderful perspective. Thanks so much for bringing such incredible and articulate people onto your show.
My parents stayed together despite hating each other. I think I'd of been much better adjusted if they had split up.
This is one of the sparse occasions when I would like to hit the Like Button a million times! Thank you FF and KK for this wonderful Interview! Much love from germany!
Every now and then someone says something that absolutely stops you in your tracks. Mary’s assertion that the precedent for women’s spaces being infringed upon by transgender identified men was set by women infringing upon men’s spaces in the name of feminism is one of them. That hit me like a ton of bricks.
I dont think I agree with her statements ….
@@Shineynsparkles I don’t either.
@@Shineynsparkles Don't agree or not but it's true, it started with women forcing men's spaces to become coed by lawsuits and legal obligation if needed. There are almost no men only places left, they aren't allowed to survive because someone will sue about it being discriminatory to women while that same person also asks for more women only spaces.
It's true. But not only is it the root of the invasion of women's spaces it also destroyed spaces for boys to interact with other boys and learn to be men. Hence the feminisation of boys. Example being the boy scouts.
@@CazRaX
This whole ish started when WW wanted inheritance laws and their own finances
Then representation n the right to vote
Then wanting to break the glass ceiling
She omits a lot….
Mary is one of the best women. Deep thinking, with courage to go against the grain, the ability to escape thought prisons, to explore novel territory with empathy and pragmatism, able to articulate her findings with authority and compassion; it makes her such a great story-teller. Her traits reveal her wisdom and her deep capacity for love. She's just great.
Yeah, caring for children is important, but why is it assumed to be naturally women's work? Seems like she has a problem with capitalism, not feminism.
Ancestral biology, probably. Females are the dominant caregivers, yeah? Where’s the assumption in that?
The pill made me depressed, and when I stopped I got my life back.
Same. It's so so scary too the side effects i suffered and how much my body went thru even coming off the pill. Don't mess around with hormones and your body! Doctors prescribe them like candy for everything, from acne to PCOS etc ..
It's funny to watch secularist post-enlightenment types basically confirm the teachings of the Catholic Church on these issues.
53:40 I'm surprised the correspondent didn't challenge the logic of FF's statement. From her perspective i thought she would argue that liberating half the population and swelling the labour force has driven wages down and is the reason why you need two incomes to raise a family. She is also naively simplistic about kinks and danger, they have existed long before the internet and have deeper roots than looking for more danger in safe sex.
This is the most interesting and real discussion I’ve heard in a long time. Huge respect to Mary, I can’t wait to listen to more of what you have to say.
Excellent interview and much food for thought. One massively negative consequence not mentioned at all in your interview, and supported in large part I think on the cultural changes she highlights, is the huge demographic implosion humanity is experiencing right now in economically advanced cultures, and will experience in the third world in coming years. Her hope of creating a new vanguard of married couples who work from home so as to permit families that will promote having and caring for babies is terrific, and more important quite plausible, since it does create real opportunities from bringing meaning and purpose back into home-based married life.
I have to question the link between the pill and transgenderism, as transgenderism can be traced back to postwar America or prewar Germany depending on which version you look at, and trans seems to be readily picked up by countries such as Iran, where its just as much "transing away the gay" as it is here, just forcefully.
Janice Fiamengo made several videos about the early feminism. Highly recommended
Also worth a read: "Freedom Feminism" by Christina Hoff Summers, which discussed the same subject. And it's short.
Far better than Mary…..Mary is still ideologically captured by the idea that their can be equality between the sexes - the most common fallacy of feminists. With life scripts completely different it is impossible to create equality….
@@ColonelMuppet bang on!
Mary Harrigton presents a clear and accurate perspective on "how things used to be (and basically always were)" in such simple, easy language. What a gift to us, the confused masses. What a gift to the world.
No. She, like all chicks, always slant everytong to paint themselves as victims. And they think guys serving them and slaving away is fair. Go away, chick.
@@kaczan3 you obviously didn't kisten to the interview.
First time hearing her. She is an expert at communicating and her logic is water tight. This is my favorite conversation so far. Thank you both for what you’re doing.
I could poke holes in her logic all day...for example the connection she makes between the pill and the trans ideology is just ridiculous.
Almost water tight. After accurately diagnosing modern social ills she let's feminism largely off the hook for the problems it has caused by appealing to "complex systems". Which isn't factually incorrect in a broad sense, but someone like Christina Hoff Summers would point to education as a major source of the problems of men and that is largely the fault of feminism.
Maybe she's just being diplomatic, but she's pulling punches.
@@aaronvt9980 100% - she’s being somewhat coy here. I feel she’s fully aware of the sheer devastation inflicted on masculinity over the last few decades but that she also enjoys some aspects of it.
I reckon this conversation could have also gone other places if she could be truly consistent logically. Good spot
Yes she lets the femanazis off the hook. Women created this fuckery by using the cops against their husbands then shaming us men into submission. men don't marry or have kids. Don't give them this power over you. Mgtow
@@bradleyjackson7168 while I agree that men have been shamed for being men for many decades, I made the choice the be married and have a child. I’m no longer ashamed of being male and my wife isn’t ashamed of being a stay at home mother. We do what we think is best for our daughter.
Thank you so much for conducting this interview and putting this message out into the public space to offer an alternative viewpoint for society. Mary you are so articulate and your arguments are very persuasive. Really enjoyed watching that.
She is sooo right when she pointed out that when the pill became available, pregnancies went up a lot higher because women began having sex. Through my life, I can honestly say that most every woman I knew in my 20’s became pregnant (unmarried) because they were unbelievably immature and irresponsible being on The Pill. They weren’t taking them precisely every 24 hours. And if they became pregnant, it was 50/50 who had decided to keep the child or to have an abortion. The sheer numbers of unmarried young girls having babies changed the world.
Originally the pill was for married women who didn’t want more children. Unmarried women couldn’t access it for some time. The pill was great for women who really didn’t want more kids but couldn’t rely on her man to pull out. But actually, birth rates fell so not sure what you’re talking about. Look at the fertility in 1960 compared to 1975….. it’s not been as high since the 60s and that’s thanks to the pill and abortion, as well as women wanting fewer children.
Men have never wanted to be husbands and fathers, societies used to force men to get married be responsible and take care of children. Men don't WANT t be good people.
Thank you Triggernometry and Thank you Mary Harrington. Feminist used to be part of my identity. But the longer I lived the more I realized what I was being told about women through history just didn't seem to add up to what I was learning through my own curiosity. Basically what I was realizing is what Mary is talking about. I've never heard anyone voice that opinion before. I thought I must be going a bit off. lol It's so refreshing to listen to this conversation. I can't wait to get my hands on this book! One more month for the U.S. Again, thank you Triggernometry for another wonderful conversation. And thank you Mary for saying what I couldn't.
I rejected feminism in the 1970s due to the reasons she explores. I can't wait to read the book either
Janice Fiamengo is also a good source.
I too have always cosidered myself a feminist (although not alligned to a particular movement), but have been doing a total 180 on many issues that I never would have forseen. Which has left me questioning so many things. I now look to biology / nature to guide my opinions a lot of the time, and by doing that I have had to revise my opinions, quite substantially.
@@graceb3934 What issues did you change your mind about?
@@MisyeDiVre I think Fiamengo has also done her research involving reading primary sources of the time.
This was a very interesting show. As an over 60 lady I’ve lived through the “liberation” of our bodies and am a grandmother of girls ranging from 20 to 4 yrs. She’s given a lot of food for thought. I have to say, that I’m happy that I don’t have to be raising girls right now. Also…. Let boys be boys! Parents need to stop instantly putting them in some descriptive identity slot at 4 yrs of age. If at 4 they like dolls, buy a doll, if they are into drawing get some crayons, if they love machines….
In a way, you are in opposition to A tenet of the talk. Mary talked about the "socialization of boys into men"; this cultural practice is in opposition to your suggestion of "if they like dolls, buy a doll". Actually, boys need to be socialized in a way to become "men" of society that up holds certain customs and mores. Just a thought.
I'm your age too. Raised by the Silent Generation, grandparented by the Greatest Generation, being of the Baby Boomer Generation. We can remember the lessons of the people before technology and now have lived through the decades of great change. She brings the lesson of looking back at the values of the past that brought rewards to the children of these generations before society began to dictate what people needed to think and believe and be forced to comply to a group edict. The are pushing agenda not individuality. Bless you, age 60s sister!!!
Being able to homeschool makes being a stay at home mom much more satisfying. At least for me. It think it’s mysonginist to have wrenched the children out of the homes. I know I can’t speak for everyone but this is something joined talks about. (Not to mention that by the time you’re 13 your away from your family at school and everyone is telling you you should be making out with boys and you can’t even tell your mom because she knows NOTHING about your life because you barely see each other). Moms and kids actually need each other. There is is. My unpopular truth. ❤
I think you are misplacing the source of why children are wrenched out of their homes. It’s the elites who created our modern education system. Not necessarily to provide knowledge but rather to increase productivity. The modern education system trains its population not how to think but rather to become cogs to a machine. We are taught early on to sit in one location and perform a task. To defer to an authoritative figure and trust they have your best interest in mind. To question is blasphemy and those that do are labeled as disruptive individuals and made outcasts.
If it was truly an act of misogyny then it would only apply to girls but it has been applied to boys as well. It clearly isn’t a blanket statement but rather the overarching program.
Well done in homeschooling. It is the only way forward to protect your children from the indoctrination of what is happening. Have fun learning with your kids. You can teach real science and history. Kids are our future.
@@elizabethhufton5514 thank you!!!
She’s right. I’ve been saying the same thing for 30 years …. albeit much less succinctly … and among my peers also to a very hostile audience. A knowledgeable and articulate guest. Thank you.