Gday Jon, thanks very much for the shout out, I’ve had the first treatment with minimal symptoms thankfully, the quick lash up certainly proved where the issue is and now moving forward once a new workshop is found you can solve the issue once and for all, great job mate, cheers
That is a lot of flex there Jon. It is good that you now know where most of the issue is. That makes it easy to fix or improve when you move into your new place. Nice touch to shout out to our friends with health issues. I like watching Matty's videos as he does them in a down to earth style, he shows his mistakes so we can all learn from them, and I learn a lot of new things from him.
Remember, there's nothing more permanent than a temporary fix. That said, I'm in the process of fitting a large 3 phase motor in to my small hobby mill, and there might be some temporary fixes in that. Keep them coming Jon, and thanks for sharing.
Thanks as well Jon for the kindness and sharing Matty's and our new lifes' journey as cancer Vitim's. It's creators like you that make the RUclips community a family! Now, to the mill,,,,great resolve Jon. When I am filling better, I and coming back to this. My RU-FU 31 doesn't have this issue, but never know when it mite (@@)! Cheers ole friend, Bear
Stefan did a mod to his 45 mill by using epoxy at the join between the column and base. Well worth a watch. My own Chester RF45 mill has a similar issue, but I've just got a new to me universal mill, which won't have the issue and has less of an issue with head room.
I've also mentioned Stefan using epoxy bedding compound and shim stock on his 45. I believe poor mating face contact at this area has a lot to answer for.
Good result Jon, nice and quick to do as well. It was amazing how much the head moved when you pushed it upwards. It's very frustrating for you being used to industrial machinery. Cheers Tony
Jon, great video. inspired me to try to reach out to you on this. Im in the process of rebuilding mine. and the column to the base with 450lbs moved 11thou. I have a video im working on that shows that. the base to column isnt fully scraped at this point though. another area of the flex is the weaker swivel mount to the column. I think your fix is fantastic. I wont be able to mount mine to the wall. Keep after it.
Hi, thanks for the comment. Subbed and look forward to seeing your efforts. All this reminds me of a saying an old workmate used to say which is "you can carve a rose out of a pile of s**t, but at the end of the day, you still have a pile of s**t lol. Cheers, Jon
Everything points to the fact that it makes sense to check with Prussian blue paint the prints of the contacting planes at the base of the column. And bring these planes with a scraper to full contact. And do the same with the clamping bars in the machine guides.
These machines all have a design defect where the column bolts to the base. The mounting bolts are too short to lock up any stretch. Best practice from earthmoving machinery is to install about 50 mm spacers between the bolt head and the flange being clamped. Grade 8 Bolts are designed to work as springs to store tension and keep the bolted joint closed. Adding a threaded backer plate to stiffen the joint from below the base casting will further stiffen the assembly as will back filling with concrete or Epoxy Granite.
Hi Jon, Wow a real eye opener, that's some flex... Your simple temporary solution looks like a win... Class shout out for Matty and Bear 👍👍 ATB...Cheers....
Morning Jon. Very interesting video. I am currently chasing my tail trying to resolve chatter issues with my Dore Westbury milling machine. It is definitely a hunt with plenty of trial and error. Very enjoyable in a mechanistic way. 👏👏👍😀
Many a knackered machine tool has been "fixed"this way, though normally when its ran into the ground 😮. Possibly a combination of stiffness and resonance in use, great job Jon. Great to see support for other YT individuals. Thanks for sharing
Hi John, thanks for the comment. Yup, I have worked one with an RSJ welded to the back of it lol. Also a big old Herbert 8 that you started with a big hammer by hitting the contactor box (you stopped it the same way lol, I don't think that would pass any H&S legislation these days). Cheers, Jon
Nice one Jon, interesting scenario, something for me to think about, again time!!🤣🤣👍👍👍👍👍👍 there's one thing we've never time to be bored like some i know. atb Kev
Thanks, I’ve got the next size larger mill than yours, but still Chinese (Grizzly). You’ve given me some great ideas for checking my mill. I’ve been kicking around the idea of moving my mill. Currently it is out in the open, not near a wall. If I find the kind of deflection you found, I will definitely move my mill and brace it. It may not be an elegant permanent fix, but appears to provide a lot of improvement with little investment.👍
Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. You may get lucky. It is clear to me that the column to base interface is very important, if you got a Friday afternoon one like mine then moving to a wall is much easier than splitting and scraping. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, If your doing a strip down later, I might as well give you another tip. If you have a power feed to your table, remove the LH table end bracket. If your machine is the same as mine, you will find that the x leadscrew runs directly in the cast iron table end bracket. This was unacceptable to me, so I bored the table end bracket out and fitted an oilite Bush. This also needs an oil feed hole drilling into it in line with the button oiler. Also file an oil groove in the ID of the oilite bush. The leadscrew should last a bit longer with this small mod. I've also fitted a length of 40mm angle iron to the front of the table, secured by homemade vee nuts into the vee slot ( a bit trickery to get the vee right but follow the standard vee nut dimensions an it all works out right. Then you can fit a flexible plastic sheet to the underside of the angle iron with neo magnets. This mod also allows you to fit a chip shield to the top of the angle iron and a much needed chip guard for the y axis base sidewaysunderneath the angle iron. Simple to do, low cost and very effective. I also want to move the electrics box to provide z axis screw access. Then I might look at the backlash illiminator. But frankly I think I'll just move onto using smaller, sharp HSS end mills. After all, this is only a low power hobby mill. We all want the best out of our equipment, but, hell, what can we really expect for the price. Generally I'm very satisfied with Warco supplied products. PS I worked for Bridgeport for most of my life !!!! I'd really like to redesign and manufacture this machine to Bridgeport standards, but that's virtually impossible now. One thing I HATE on this machine is the saddle overhang when the spindle is in the max y position. BAD BAD design and no help to the stability problem. I respect what you have achieved in tying the column back, its needed, but essentially the column footprint to column height ratio is just way out, but it does give a good spindle to tabletop clearance. Again putting that aside, we have to work with what weve got. Maybe a Bridgeport turret mill is on the cards when you move house, I'm sure the workshop potential was high on your priority list in your choice of your new place!!! Best Regards MikeN Regards
Hi Mike, thanks for the detailed comment. Yep, as a friend of mine used to say "you can carve a rose out of a pile of s**t, but at the end of the day you will still have a pile of s**t". I learnt my trade on a Bridgeport, the designers of that machine were clearly machinists as well as damn good Engineers. I will continue to try and improve the ZX but at some point it will be playing second fiddle to a proper machine. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, Interesting stuff and glad you had some success. My Mill's also a ZX45 type and seems to handle the machining that yours struggles with well. You've got me thinking and I'm going to perform the same head tests you done and see what difference there is. Regards Kevin
Hi Kevin, thanks for the comment. Look forward to your results, alas I suspect yours was made on a Tuesday morning and not a Friday afternoon 😁. Cheers, Jon
Interesting video Jon. Looks like you're well on the way to fixing the problem. Hope your house move gives you a Bridgeport sized workshop! Cheers Nobby
Rite Jon, For a simple fix there was a vast improvement. Thought you were gonna bust a blood vessel (wasn't that the name of a singer )? Take it easy Dude, as always stay safe n well. TFS, GB :)
That's wild. I have a harbor freight mini mill that I installed a solid column on and all steel gears. I just drilled a few 3/4 holes in titanium the other day with no problems and no flex.
Well Jon I went down that street when buying a mill. I looked at all the import ones & some quite expensive too. I as you know ended up with a Vintage Tom Senior. I must say even though it is only MT2 it has been rock solid. I did some video's using up to a 63mm 6 insert face mill & it worked perfectly well. barring worn nuts etc. Hope you get a result. Steve.
Hi Jon. Good Info. I'll have to do some testing on my own mill (PM728). I can just hear the conversation with your estate agent. " I"m looking for a big shop with a small house in the back yard". Good luck finding what you are looking for.
Very interesting video John. I have a much smaller bench top mill, (Warco 16), which performs fairly well but it has always seemed to me that the flange in the column casting which bolts down to the base is a weak spot. Best wishes especially if you are about to move and it would be very interesting to know more about a potential new workshop.
Good investigation Jon. Seems like those machines have a very narrow column for the amount of leverage. My NU Tool pillar drill column was not 90 to the base and I found somebody had clamped it down on a load of rust (between column and base). But even then the column was springy so I ran a couple of struts back to the wall and now it's like a different machine. I guess then one day we will get to see the 'final location' ..... Cheers
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. I hope so, when the move and new workshop comes, so does retirement which I am eagerly looking forward to. Cheers, Jon
Better take a reading on the wall for a base line. Most modern structures have a lot of give in the interior walls (and a surprising amount in the exterior ones as well).
Good video John, Sorry I haven't been around for a while because I've been so busy lately. I saw a video about making a bench-top mill more robust. He filled the column up with concrete and it improved a great deal but I can't remember who did it lol
Hi Jon, I have a similar Optimum MB4 mill, it has less than half the movement your mill has but I still find it very noisy when using a face mill, I think most of the problems with my mill are because of the very light and flimsy base that came with the mill. My last mill was a smaller MH28 but it was on a very solid base and worked better with a face mill. I think if the mill is bolted down to a solid base most of the vibration issues will be resolved, I’m about to start making a new base out of heavy steel probably with a 100mm concrete top. Now I just need to decide if I should include support for the column. Great video Jon.
Hi Jon. Wow, that was a very interesting video. I've looked at these machines a number of times and never would have thought the column would flex that much. I have heard of other issues, but never flex. It makes me wonder how thick the base casting is, as the bolt up plates look quite substantial. Considering the size and weight of these units it's quite a surprise. Cheers Rob
I don't think it is the thickness of the casting that causes the flex as much as the mating faces of base and column not being perfectly flat. Stefan Gotteswinter addressed similar issues on his Optima 45 by shimming and bedding the column down on epoxy bedding compound.
Hi Rob, thanks for the comment. My belief is that it is all coming from out of flatness at the base/column interface. Some day I will strip it all down and investigate properly. Cheers, Jon
I wonder why this isn’t more common. Can anyone think of the disadvantages of preloading the column like that? The round column rong fu’s flex like mad at the base too. I always wondered why they didnt compress the flex with a similar style clamping system. You know, temporarily 😅
The tapered Gib adjustment strip in the saddle that slides up and down the column is another area that you should look at. The fit and finish of the tapered Gib on some of these machines is very poor with hardly any useful contact area. I had this issue with my Warco WM 16 and after the Gib strips were fettled the rigidity improved and chattering reduced greatly.
I read somewhere the gib sttips on my Chinese mill were meant to be scraped, but judging by the finish it was scraped(scrapped ) with an angle grinder!
I have a Warco mini mill bolted to the bench but I attached the top of the column to the back ( brick) wall with 2 angled tie braces to stop the column flex and also twist. The columns are just too flimsy to hold that size of head.
Hi Jon, very interesting video! I am wondering if the base of the column and the area where it sits on the base have one or the other (or both) not machined dead flat. Or perhaps even as simple as a bit of grime between the mating surfaces? Regards Tony.
you could push the quill intoo the table to get the flex without moving the whole machine looking at how you done it i can see that since the machine is not bolted to the floor it can walk away from the brace over time , you need to tie the machine to the wall near the table or bolt it to the floor so it stays in place about the facemill : if the head is moving front to back its probably allso move side to side , and the facemill moving through the material is moving the machine away from the rotation against the cut face , wat you can do is triangulate the brace wish should brace the mast in all directions , you would need rosejoints in all the points and some way to shorten the rods from the wall to the machine so you can shorten lengthen them and move the mast side to side by doing a combo shorten lengthen both rods , would still make a brace at the bottom of the mast as well think you could use the rear two bottom bolts that bolds the mast to the base and for the top the two bolts that hold the dustcover on (though they seem a little small) if the contact noise isnt a bother i would make the bracing permanent as it makes the machine a LOT more ridgit think it will push the quallity of the machining intoo the bridgeport realm verry curious on how the new shop will turn out
I have a similar clone. I have measured significant flex also in the base. I initially detected it with y axis wanting to bind, and tramming the head changed with y position. I discovered the base was twisted by uneven levelling clamping to the sheet metal cabinet base. I am tolerating my machine because I don’t have the room or cash for a Bridgeport ☹️
Hi Glenn, thanks for the comment. They aren't brilliant but still better than a file, I repeat this mantra when I get disappointed with the thing, it helps lol.
I would make up some new T-screws and nuts for the head to column mounting flange out of Toolox 44. Higher yield strength fasteners will allow you to torque the head tighter than the original fasteners which in turn will make the joint less flexible
Hi Jon, I believe I may have the same or similar issue. I've studied the parts list, and have noted another test which may be worth doing. 1) The z axis leadscrew is supported on a bearing at the bottom of the screw. 2) This means the geared head is operation under gravity on the screw. 3) There appears to be no bearing ag the top of the screw. If my observation is correct, then this could leave the geared head free to dance up and down on the z axis leadscrews and nut??? A quick test might indicate if this theory holds any water. Place a wooden block on the machine table and wind the head down onto it ( NOT on the end of the spindle) Lock the z axis travel clamps tight. Then use the crank handle to test the backlash in the z leadscrew and nut. I dont know what the outcome will be,as I've not done this test, and I dont have time just now. I have noticed a couple of times when I've really pushed the drilling operation, the head appears to lift and then come down with a bump!, The head may lifting under the quill pressure?.. 50mm Facemills bounce like crazy above 0.05mm , Flycutters deflect with anything like a decent cut above 0.05mm. The trammel in y is 0.02mm across the table (heavy at the front) but!!! Squares up when the z locks are applied. Maybe I'm wrong with this theory but think it's worth a quick test. If its correct, then it's a big job to put a backlash illiminator on the z as you will know!! A solution would be a pair of leadsrew nuts and a new design nut bracket to stop the backlash (ala Bridgeoprt x & y nutbracket) Sorry to whinge on a bit about this but it seems a few people may have this issue, but are either ignoring g it or worming around it ( me included, Best Regards Mike N
Hi Mike, thanks for the comment. You are right, the top of the screw is unsupported and backlash is plentiful. When I move workshops, this machine will be getting dismantled, so on re-assembly I will be addressing many of its weaknesses properly. Cheers, Jon
I'm finding the same thing with my milling machine (PM728) and I was thinking of doing something similar to what you have done here. Did you check the NOD before and after? I don't have an adjustable NOD on my machine and as I check with a DTI while reading off the face of the fixed jaw on my vise I'm showing close to .002 difference from top of jaw to bottom of jaw right now. Having the head on my milling machine push forward would actually bring mine into vertical true on the NOD.
Hi Jon. Food for thought, I did a quick measurement on my mill and I was getting 0.1mm pushing up and 0.05mm pushing down. Less than yours, but then I have a smaller machine. I'll have a think about bracing mine. Looking forward to seeing you in a new workshop. Is there a timescale yet?
I have the same machine and surprisingly I don’t get that flex from the base to the column. I would lean towards the matting surfaces not being flat and when the SHCS’s were torqued it has now allowed for.the column to spring back and fourth. Maybe scraping it is in order.
Must admit I am looking forward to see what you are doing new workshop/ house wise. We have been looking for a new property for 2 years, down size the house, but up size the workshop. Anyone know of any properties Holmfirth/Honley way with at least 800 sq ft of workshop space please comment.
That's just what I am after Bill, with the additional specification that it must be rural and away from other properties....... It's going to be a tough search. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, good video. My mill's a Warco WM18, Surprizing how rigid it is to be fair. The move will be interesting, finding a descent workshop with a house attached can be awkward. Wondering if you're staying in Scotland or moving back down this way where it's a little dryer.
If they spent the time carrying out proper fitting procedures then the mill would be far more expensive to purchase. It has always been the case with cheap Chinese machines that a fair amount of home done improvement work is required to get the best from them.
Hi Jon, I tried to find a manual on your mill but have drawn a blank. I have a new Precision Mathews PM 935 mill which looks like it uses the same or similar head to yours just with a bigger table. If yours has the adjustable head, 90° each side of vertical, then I suspect your problem lies in the way the head is attached to the column. In mine there is one large bolt that secures the carriage to the column via dovetails and an adjustable gib. Is this gib in correct adjustment? Is the large bolt into the nut on the head raising "Z" axis leadscrew secure? Are the thrust bearings of that leadscrew adjusted correctly with virtually no backlash up or down. This can be adjusted from behind with a couple of nuts on the end of the leadscrew. On mine there's a locking tab washer between the two nuts that will have to be opened and then closed once adjustments are made. Remove the rear cover and have someone lift and push down on the head like you did, while you look in the rear. Might see something there. Obviously the three bolts for the rotation of the head must be tight or the whole head would flop over. To check the mounting bolt in the centre of the carriage you will need to remove the head from the carriage if it's like mine. This is a hoist and two persons operation as the head is top heavy with the motor on top. All this should be in your manual to check on first installation.
Hi Ron. Thanks for the comment. When I move workshops, I will be tearing this mill down and formally addressing some weaknesses. I agree with everything you said as points to check. I need some crane capacity and a decent sized surface table before I start so am going to put up with the current state for now. Cheers, Jon
You inspired me to do the same test on my Warco WM18 mill. WM18 is 50 Kg lighter, £100 cheaper, same motor power but with variable speed and hi/lo gear rather than gears for the spindle, but throat 180mm against your 260mm. With clock between table and left underside of head, and me pushing up on right underside of head, I get 55 microns (=2.2 thou) movement. Similar pushing down. Your greater throat gives 44% more leverage on the column, so 2.2 * 1.44 = 3.1 thou compared with your 8 or 9 thou on the Cormak ZX7045. So I'm pleasantly surprised with mine. On the other hand, you look to be younger and beefier than me, so perhaps I'm just too weak to match your test! Some people fill a hollow column with mixture of granite chippings and epoxy to stiffen it up. but that assumes flexing occurs along the column rather than at the column/base interface.
Thanks for the comment. Lol, my beef is all in the wrong places these days😂😂. There's no way that column is flexing, but filling it will definitely damp vibration. Your machine is pretty good, must have been made on a Tuesday instead of a Friday afternoon like mine😊
I would have made the joints so they locked in place to stop backwards movement & forward. What you did obviously worked, but using end mills, the column would still be able to to pull itself down into the work!
@@howardosborne8647 Yes, I heard that but never heard him mention the downward pull when using n end mill. I did the same tests today as I have the Amadeal version of this mill. I think I was lucky with mine!
Hi Jon, a tongue in cheek engineer once said when a fat horse fly lands on a railway line it WILL sag 1 millionth of an inch, everything moves with force applied. Your mill moves way too much, hard to hold accuracy. Wondering if the column base casting is the culprit, not enough metal.
Hi Willem, lol. This is all coming from out of flatness at the base/column interface. There's no way I could push hard enough with one hand to flex the castings by this amount, they are pretty substantial (just poorly machined). Cheers, Jon
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment. If I had found it within the 1st year perhaps, but sadly I suspect I would have had no joy with the seller, and return shipping back to eastern Poland would have cost me a fortune. Sometimes you just have to face the music. I will eventually make this thing useable lol. Cheers, Jon
Наука
Gday Jon, thanks very much for the shout out, I’ve had the first treatment with minimal symptoms thankfully, the quick lash up certainly proved where the issue is and now moving forward once a new workshop is found you can solve the issue once and for all, great job mate, cheers
Thanks Matty, you take good care of yourself buddy and rest up
besides the improvement of your mill:
you know what really matters - the health of your fellow youtuber, we all enjoy to watch.
100% thank you
That is a lot of flex there Jon. It is good that you now know where most of the issue is. That makes it easy to fix or improve when you move into your new place.
Nice touch to shout out to our friends with health issues. I like watching Matty's videos as he does them in a down to earth style, he shows his mistakes so we can all learn from them, and I learn a lot of new things from him.
Thanks John, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon
Remember, there's nothing more permanent than a temporary fix. That said, I'm in the process of fitting a large 3 phase motor in to my small hobby mill, and there might be some temporary fixes in that. Keep them coming Jon, and thanks for sharing.
Thanks Dave, you know its permanent lol
Thanks as well Jon for the kindness and sharing Matty's and our new lifes' journey as cancer Vitim's. It's creators like you that make the RUclips community a family! Now, to the mill,,,,great resolve Jon. When I am filling better, I and coming back to this. My RU-FU 31 doesn't have this issue, but never know when it mite (@@)! Cheers ole friend, Bear
No problem Bear, you look after yourself.
Stefan did a mod to his 45 mill by using epoxy at the join between the column and base. Well worth a watch. My own Chester RF45 mill has a similar issue, but I've just got a new to me universal mill, which won't have the issue and has less of an issue with head room.
I've also mentioned Stefan using epoxy bedding compound and shim stock on his 45. I believe poor mating face contact at this area has a lot to answer for.
Good result Jon, nice and quick to do as well. It was amazing how much the head moved when you pushed it upwards. It's very frustrating for you being used to industrial machinery. Cheers Tony
Thanks Tony, yup, it frustrates the hell out of me😂😂
good video Jon..thanks for your time
Good job, Jon. The last cut sounded good. Ya solved the biggest part of the issue.
Great video Jon, I’m looking forward to the possibility of that new workshop and room for a Bridgeport 😉
Jon, great video. inspired me to try to reach out to you on this. Im in the process of rebuilding mine. and the column to the base with 450lbs moved 11thou. I have a video im working on that shows that. the base to column isnt fully scraped at this point though. another area of the flex is the weaker swivel mount to the column. I think your fix is fantastic. I wont be able to mount mine to the wall. Keep after it.
Hi, thanks for the comment. Subbed and look forward to seeing your efforts. All this reminds me of a saying an old workmate used to say which is "you can carve a rose out of a pile of s**t, but at the end of the day, you still have a pile of s**t lol. Cheers, Jon
That looks a lot like success excellent work cheers
Good job Jon. at least it’s not going to be a major job to fix in the new shop 👍👍👍
Great effect and nice improvement to cutter effect. Enjoyed , cheers!
Thank you! Cheers!
Everything points to the fact that it makes sense to check with Prussian blue paint the prints of the contacting planes at the base of the column. And bring these planes with a scraper to full contact.
And do the same with the clamping bars in the machine guides.
100% Sergei, I will be doing this in the future. Thanks for the comment
These machines all have a design defect where the column bolts to the base. The mounting bolts are too short to lock up any stretch.
Best practice from earthmoving machinery is to install about 50 mm spacers between the bolt head and the flange being clamped. Grade 8 Bolts are designed to work as springs to store tension and keep the bolted joint closed.
Adding a threaded backer plate to stiffen the joint from below the base casting will further stiffen the assembly as will back filling with concrete or Epoxy Granite.
Hi Jon, Wow a real eye opener, that's some flex... Your simple temporary solution looks like a win...
Class shout out for Matty and Bear 👍👍
ATB...Cheers....
Thanks Dean, much appreciated mate. Cheers, Jon
Morning Jon. Very interesting video. I am currently chasing my tail trying to resolve chatter issues with my Dore Westbury milling machine. It is definitely a hunt with plenty of trial and error. Very enjoyable in a mechanistic way. 👏👏👍😀
Thanks Andrew
Many a knackered machine tool has been "fixed"this way, though normally when its ran into the ground 😮.
Possibly a combination of stiffness and resonance in use, great job Jon.
Great to see support for other YT individuals.
Thanks for sharing
Hi John, thanks for the comment. Yup, I have worked one with an RSJ welded to the back of it lol. Also a big old Herbert 8 that you started with a big hammer by hitting the contactor box (you stopped it the same way lol, I don't think that would pass any H&S legislation these days). Cheers, Jon
Nice one Jon, interesting scenario, something for me to think about, again time!!🤣🤣👍👍👍👍👍👍 there's one thing we've never time to be bored like some i know.
atb
Kev
Thanks, I’ve got the next size larger mill than yours, but still Chinese (Grizzly). You’ve given me some great ideas for checking my mill. I’ve been kicking around the idea of moving my mill. Currently it is out in the open, not near a wall. If I find the kind of deflection you found, I will definitely move my mill and brace it. It may not be an elegant permanent fix, but appears to provide a lot of improvement with little investment.👍
Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. You may get lucky. It is clear to me that the column to base interface is very important, if you got a Friday afternoon one like mine then moving to a wall is much easier than splitting and scraping. Cheers, Jon
Great problem solving,
Hi Jon, If your doing a strip down later, I might as well give you another tip.
If you have a power feed to your table, remove the LH table end bracket.
If your machine is the same as mine, you will find that the x leadscrew runs directly in the cast iron table end bracket.
This was unacceptable to me, so I bored the table end bracket out and fitted an oilite Bush. This also needs an oil feed hole drilling into it in line with the button oiler.
Also file an oil groove in the ID of the oilite bush.
The leadscrew should last a bit longer with this small mod.
I've also fitted a length of 40mm angle iron to the front of the table, secured by homemade vee nuts into the vee slot ( a bit trickery to get the vee right but follow the standard vee nut dimensions an it all works out right.
Then you can fit a flexible plastic sheet to the underside of the angle iron with neo magnets. This mod also allows you to fit a chip shield to the top of the angle iron and a much needed chip guard for the y axis base sidewaysunderneath the angle iron. Simple to do, low cost and very effective.
I also want to move the electrics box to provide z axis screw access.
Then I might look at the backlash illiminator.
But frankly I think I'll just move onto using smaller, sharp HSS end mills. After all, this is only a low power hobby mill.
We all want the best out of our equipment, but, hell, what can we really expect for the price.
Generally I'm very satisfied with Warco supplied products.
PS I worked for Bridgeport for most of my life !!!!
I'd really like to redesign and manufacture this machine to Bridgeport standards, but that's virtually impossible now.
One thing I HATE on this machine is the saddle overhang when the spindle is in the max y position. BAD BAD design and no help to the stability problem.
I respect what you have achieved in tying the column back, its needed, but essentially the column footprint to column height ratio is just way out, but it does give a good spindle to tabletop clearance.
Again putting that aside, we have to work with what weve got.
Maybe a Bridgeport turret mill is on the cards when you move house, I'm sure the workshop potential was high on your priority list in your choice of your new place!!!
Best Regards
MikeN
Regards
Hi Mike, thanks for the detailed comment. Yep, as a friend of mine used to say "you can carve a rose out of a pile of s**t, but at the end of the day you will still have a pile of s**t". I learnt my trade on a Bridgeport, the designers of that machine were clearly machinists as well as damn good Engineers. I will continue to try and improve the ZX but at some point it will be playing second fiddle to a proper machine. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon,
Interesting stuff and glad you had some success. My Mill's also a ZX45 type and seems to handle the machining that yours struggles with well. You've got me thinking and I'm going to perform the same head tests you done and see what difference there is.
Regards
Kevin
Hi Kevin, thanks for the comment. Look forward to your results, alas I suspect yours was made on a Tuesday morning and not a Friday afternoon 😁. Cheers, Jon
Yep. 👍
Me too ( on a brand new machine).
Thanks for explaining your testing procedures so well.
Regards,
Robert
( Australia)
Interesting video Jon. Looks like you're well on the way to fixing the problem. Hope your house move gives you a Bridgeport sized workshop! Cheers Nobby
Thanks Nobby, much appreciated. Cheers, Jon
You deserve more subscribers
Rite Jon, For a simple fix there was a vast improvement. Thought you were gonna bust a blood vessel (wasn't that the name of a singer )? Take it easy Dude, as always stay safe n well. TFS, GB :)
Hi Graeme, thanks for the comment. I have heard of buster gonad but I reckon that was something else lol. Cheers, Jon
@@jonsworkshop bust them few times crashing bikes 🏍 and🚲🤢GB :)
That's wild. I have a harbor freight mini mill that I installed a solid column on and all steel gears. I just drilled a few 3/4 holes in titanium the other day with no problems and no flex.
Thanks, you got a good one👍. Keep hold of it.
Hi Jon. I have seen a few video's of this been done with good results.
Steve.
Thanks Steve, I am realising I made a purchasing error lol. Cheers, Jon
Well Jon I went down that street when buying a mill. I looked at all the import ones & some quite expensive too. I as you know ended up with a Vintage Tom Senior. I must say even though it is only MT2 it has been rock solid. I did some video's using up to a 63mm 6 insert face mill & it worked perfectly well. barring worn nuts etc. Hope you get a result.
Steve.
Hi Jon. Good Info. I'll have to do some testing on my own mill (PM728). I can just hear the conversation with your estate agent. " I"m looking for a big shop with a small house in the back yard". Good luck finding what you are looking for.
Hi Steve, lol, it's like you read my mind 😂😂😂
Very interesting video John. I have a much smaller bench top mill, (Warco 16), which performs fairly well but it has always seemed to me that the flange in the column casting which bolts down to the base is a weak spot. Best wishes especially if you are about to move and it would be very interesting to know more about a potential new workshop.
Thanks Stephen, I will update you on the move as we get closer to the time.
Good investigation Jon. Seems like those machines have a very narrow column for the amount of leverage. My NU Tool pillar drill column was not 90 to the base and I found somebody had clamped it down on a load of rust (between column and base). But even then the column was springy so I ran a couple of struts back to the wall and now it's like a different machine. I guess then one day we will get to see the 'final location' ..... Cheers
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. I hope so, when the move and new workshop comes, so does retirement which I am eagerly looking forward to. Cheers, Jon
Better take a reading on the wall for a base line. Most modern structures have a lot of give in the interior walls (and a surprising amount in the exterior ones as well).
Thanks Douglas, will do some monitoring
Good video John, Sorry I haven't been around for a while because I've been so busy lately. I saw a video about making a bench-top mill more robust. He filled the column up with concrete and it improved a great deal but I can't remember who did it lol
Hi Dermot, thanks for the comment. Don't apologise lol, we all get life throwing things in the way.
Hi Jon, I have a similar Optimum MB4 mill, it has less than half the movement your mill has but I still find it very noisy when using a face mill, I think most of the problems with my mill are because of the very light and flimsy base that came with the mill. My last mill was a smaller MH28 but it was on a very solid base and worked better with a face mill. I think if the mill is bolted down to a solid base most of the vibration issues will be resolved, I’m about to start making a new base out of heavy steel probably with a 100mm concrete top. Now I just need to decide if I should include support for the column. Great video Jon.
Hi Jon. Wow, that was a very interesting video. I've looked at these machines a number of times and never would have thought the column would flex that much. I have heard of other issues, but never flex. It makes me wonder how thick the base casting is, as the bolt up plates look quite substantial. Considering the size and weight of these units it's quite a surprise. Cheers Rob
I don't think it is the thickness of the casting that causes the flex as much as the mating faces of base and column not being perfectly flat.
Stefan Gotteswinter addressed similar issues on his Optima 45 by shimming and bedding the column down on epoxy bedding compound.
Hi Rob, thanks for the comment. My belief is that it is all coming from out of flatness at the base/column interface. Some day I will strip it all down and investigate properly. Cheers, Jon
HELLO TO YOU AND THE FAMILY❣
😊👍
I wonder why this isn’t more common. Can anyone think of the disadvantages of preloading the column like that? The round column rong fu’s flex like mad at the base too. I always wondered why they didnt compress the flex with a similar style clamping system. You know, temporarily 😅
The tapered Gib adjustment strip in the saddle that slides up and down the column is another area that you should look at.
The fit and finish of the tapered Gib on some of these machines is very poor with hardly any useful contact area. I had this issue with my Warco WM 16 and after the Gib strips were fettled the rigidity improved and chattering reduced greatly.
I read somewhere the gib sttips on my Chinese mill were meant to be scraped, but judging by the finish it was scraped(scrapped ) with an angle grinder!
Thanks Howard, I plan to make new Gibs when I do the strip down, the ones that are in are shocking. Cheers, Jon
Mine were done with a grinder 100%, I viewed them under a microscope and you can see the radius of the wheel in the markings.
I have a Warco mini mill bolted to the bench but I attached the top of the column to the back ( brick) wall with 2 angled tie braces to stop the column flex and also twist. The columns are just too flimsy to hold that size of head.
Hi Jon, very interesting video! I am wondering if the base of the column and the area where it sits on the base have one or the other (or both) not machined dead flat. Or perhaps even as simple as a bit of grime between the mating surfaces?
Regards Tony.
Conclusion; Everyone need a wall in his/her workshop :)
Nice investigation. I'm sure you will find a way to fix it.
Ha Haa, perfect Rusti.
you could push the quill intoo the table to get the flex without moving the whole machine
looking at how you done it i can see that since the machine is not bolted to the floor it can walk away from the brace over time , you need to tie the machine to the wall near the table or bolt it to the floor so it stays in place
about the facemill : if the head is moving front to back its probably allso move side to side , and the facemill moving through the material is moving the machine away from the rotation against the cut face , wat you can do is triangulate the brace wish should brace the mast in all directions , you would need rosejoints in all the points and some way to shorten the rods from the wall to the machine so you can shorten lengthen them and move the mast side to side by doing a combo shorten lengthen both rods , would still make a brace at the bottom of the mast as well
think you could use the rear two bottom bolts that bolds the mast to the base and for the top the two bolts that hold the dustcover on (though they seem a little small)
if the contact noise isnt a bother i would make the bracing permanent as it makes the machine a LOT more ridgit think it will push the quallity of the machining intoo the bridgeport realm
verry curious on how the new shop will turn out
Nice! I've been thinking about doing something similar myself, but I dont know where I could bolt the mill to the floor.
I have a similar clone. I have measured significant flex also in the base. I initially detected it with y axis wanting to bind, and tramming the head changed with y position. I discovered the base was twisted by uneven levelling clamping to the sheet metal cabinet base.
I am tolerating my machine because I don’t have the room or cash for a Bridgeport ☹️
Hi Glenn, thanks for the comment. They aren't brilliant but still better than a file, I repeat this mantra when I get disappointed with the thing, it helps lol.
I would make up some new T-screws and nuts for the head to column mounting flange out of Toolox 44. Higher yield strength fasteners will allow you to torque the head tighter than the original fasteners which in turn will make the joint less flexible
Hi, thanks for the comment.
Hi Jon, I believe I may have the same or similar issue.
I've studied the parts list, and have noted another test which may be worth doing.
1) The z axis leadscrew is supported on a bearing at the bottom of the screw.
2) This means the geared head is operation under gravity on the screw.
3) There appears to be no bearing ag the top of the screw.
If my observation is correct, then this could leave the geared head free to dance up and down on the z axis leadscrews and nut???
A quick test might indicate if this theory holds any water.
Place a wooden block on the machine table and wind the head down onto it ( NOT on the end of the spindle)
Lock the z axis travel clamps tight.
Then use the crank handle to test the backlash in the z leadscrew and nut.
I dont know what the outcome will be,as I've not done this test, and I dont have time just now.
I have noticed a couple of times when I've really pushed the drilling operation, the head appears to lift and then come down with a bump!,
The head may lifting under the quill pressure?..
50mm Facemills bounce like crazy above 0.05mm ,
Flycutters deflect with anything like a decent cut above 0.05mm.
The trammel in y is 0.02mm across the table (heavy at the front) but!!! Squares up when the z locks are applied.
Maybe I'm wrong with this theory but think it's worth a quick test.
If its correct, then it's a big job to put a backlash illiminator on the z as you will know!!
A solution would be a pair of leadsrew nuts and a new design nut bracket to stop the backlash (ala Bridgeoprt x & y nutbracket)
Sorry to whinge on a bit about this but it seems a few people may have this issue, but are either ignoring g it or worming around it ( me included,
Best Regards
Mike N
Hi Mike, thanks for the comment. You are right, the top of the screw is unsupported and backlash is plentiful. When I move workshops, this machine will be getting dismantled, so on re-assembly I will be addressing many of its weaknesses properly. Cheers, Jon
I'm finding the same thing with my milling machine (PM728) and I was thinking of doing something similar to what you have done here. Did you check the NOD before and after? I don't have an adjustable NOD on my machine and as I check with a DTI while reading off the face of the fixed jaw on my vise I'm showing close to .002 difference from top of jaw to bottom of jaw right now. Having the head on my milling machine push forward would actually bring mine into vertical true on the NOD.
Hi Jon. Food for thought, I did a quick measurement on my mill and I was getting 0.1mm pushing up and 0.05mm pushing down. Less than yours, but then I have a smaller machine. I'll have a think about bracing mine. Looking forward to seeing you in a new workshop. Is there a timescale yet?
Hi Olly, thanks for the comment. Some time in the next couple of years, just waiting for the right property (workshop) to come along lol
I have the same machine and surprisingly I don’t get that flex from the base to the column. I would lean towards the matting surfaces not being flat and when the SHCS’s were torqued it has now allowed for.the column to spring back and fourth. Maybe scraping it is in order.
Hi Brandon, thanks for the comment, I concur. I will address this when I move the workshop as the machine will probably need to be split. Cheers, Jon
Must admit I am looking forward to see what you are doing new workshop/ house wise. We have been looking for a new property for 2 years, down size the house, but up size the workshop. Anyone know of any properties Holmfirth/Honley way with at least 800 sq ft of workshop space please comment.
That's just what I am after Bill, with the additional specification that it must be rural and away from other properties....... It's going to be a tough search. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, good video. My mill's a Warco WM18, Surprizing how rigid it is to be fair. The move will be interesting, finding a descent workshop with a house attached can be awkward. Wondering if you're staying in Scotland or moving back down this way where it's a little dryer.
Hi Dave, thanks for the comment. Staying in Scotland mate but moving to a much drier part away from the hills. Cheers, Jon
Jon, this is a very interesting video, just wonder how the manufacturers quantify this amount on inaccuracy in a so called accurate machine. 👍👴🏻
If they spent the time carrying out proper fitting procedures then the mill would be far more expensive to purchase. It has always been the case with cheap Chinese machines that a fair amount of home done improvement work is required to get the best from them.
Hi Jon,
I tried to find a manual on your mill but have drawn a blank.
I have a new Precision Mathews PM 935 mill which looks like it uses the same or similar head to yours just with a bigger table. If yours has the adjustable head, 90° each side of vertical, then I suspect your problem lies in the way the head is attached to the column. In mine there is one large bolt that secures the carriage to the column via dovetails and an adjustable gib. Is this gib in correct adjustment? Is the large bolt into the nut on the head raising "Z" axis leadscrew secure? Are the thrust bearings of that leadscrew adjusted correctly with virtually no backlash up or down. This can be adjusted from behind with a couple of nuts on the end of the leadscrew. On mine there's a locking tab washer between the two nuts that will have to be opened and then closed once adjustments are made.
Remove the rear cover and have someone lift and push down on the head like you did, while you look in the rear. Might see something there. Obviously the three bolts for the rotation of the head must be tight or the whole head would flop over.
To check the mounting bolt in the centre of the carriage you will need to remove the head from the carriage if it's like mine. This is a hoist and two persons operation as the head is top heavy with the motor on top.
All this should be in your manual to check on first installation.
Hi Ron. Thanks for the comment. When I move workshops, I will be tearing this mill down and formally addressing some weaknesses. I agree with everything you said as points to check. I need some crane capacity and a decent sized surface table before I start so am going to put up with the current state for now. Cheers, Jon
You inspired me to do the same test on my Warco WM18 mill. WM18 is 50 Kg lighter, £100 cheaper, same motor power but with variable speed and hi/lo gear rather than gears for the spindle, but throat 180mm against your 260mm. With clock between table and left underside of head, and me pushing up on right underside of head, I get 55 microns (=2.2 thou) movement. Similar pushing down. Your greater throat gives 44% more leverage on the column, so 2.2 * 1.44 = 3.1 thou compared with your 8 or 9 thou on the Cormak ZX7045. So I'm pleasantly surprised with mine. On the other hand, you look to be younger and beefier than me, so perhaps I'm just too weak to match your test!
Some people fill a hollow column with mixture of granite chippings and epoxy to stiffen it up. but that assumes flexing occurs along the column rather than at the column/base interface.
Thanks for the comment. Lol, my beef is all in the wrong places these days😂😂. There's no way that column is flexing, but filling it will definitely damp vibration. Your machine is pretty good, must have been made on a Tuesday instead of a Friday afternoon like mine😊
You might want to check the head's squareness to the table now.
I would have made the joints so they locked in place to stop backwards movement & forward. What you did obviously worked, but using end mills, the column would still be able to to pull itself down into the work!
He did say this is only a temporary fix and the proper cure will follow at a later date.
@@howardosborne8647 Yes, I heard that but never heard him mention the downward pull when using n end mill. I did the same tests today as I have the Amadeal version of this mill. I think I was lucky with mine!
Saved by '' Pink Floyd , The Wall ! '' 👍
Lol, thanks Max. "The lunatic is in my head" that will only make sense if you are a Floyd fan. Cheers, Jon
Hi Jon, a tongue in cheek engineer once said when a fat horse fly lands on a railway line it WILL sag 1 millionth of an inch, everything moves with force applied.
Your mill moves way too much, hard to hold accuracy.
Wondering if the column base casting is the culprit, not enough metal.
They don't bother about Horse Flies in Scotland when the Midges have been on the Irn Bru😆
Hi Willem, lol. This is all coming from out of flatness at the base/column interface. There's no way I could push hard enough with one hand to flex the castings by this amount, they are pretty substantial (just poorly machined). Cheers, Jon
With that much flex I would have thought you could have rejected the mill as not fit for purpose.
Hi Chris, thanks for the comment. If I had found it within the 1st year perhaps, but sadly I suspect I would have had no joy with the seller, and return shipping back to eastern Poland would have cost me a fortune. Sometimes you just have to face the music. I will eventually make this thing useable lol. Cheers, Jon
Look forward to you fixing the problem.@@jonsworkshop
the martial art of being incorrect