Thank you, guys, for a thorough approach to issues that are being glossed over elsewhere. In my lifetime (I'm 64), I've seen sports league startups that push the establishment. Those with leverage or with perceived value become part of the respective establishment - AFL, ABA, WHA. This is why the XFL or USFL will not merge with the NFL - there's no need or value of any kind. If LIV forced the establishment to yield and accept an incredible eating of crow, the PGA establishment needed the relationship. We know it is on several levels and there is a myriad of strategic layers in the mix, but it does boil down to the PGA saw the need and value in making a deal. Those who claim the PIF ceded control to the PGA and is only a funding mechanism/sponsor/sidekick are with deluding themselves or deliberately being untruthful. No organization with the money, power, strategy, and options that PIF has is simultaneously a rube in the deal-making world. The PIF may have changed tactics, but their strategy prevailed. The door has been kicked down and involvement in the big four of American sports is wide, wide open.
Thx Thomas. Yep - the side with the capital calls all the strategic shots or the next cash infusion doesn’t come. Of course the PGAT will run its own tournaments assuming they do that well. We’ll have to wait and see (and speculate of course!) what Newco will green light for inter-league play, recruiting, and especially tournament scheduling. Darkstar has a focus and much to say about the calendar and challenges with it.
Yep 100%... & Monaghan maybe called 'CEO' by title...but he is merely a puppet of the PIF..& he's too stupid to recognise that. The PIF have the control here ...no doubt. Whatever the case golf will be the winner & hopefully now the players will all play for decent money... Mcillroy needs to stop his moaning & just get on with the new enterprise & work on his game... He's living off a name he made very early on in his career but his canada performance just shows he can implode at any moment. He is too arrogant..he thinks he's some type of Nicklaus or Woods...but he is totally deluded.
Ending the lawsuits was also a motivating factor. The litigation costs added to the money crunch for the PGA but also, imho, because opening the books to public scrutiny was a frightening prospect to Monahan and others involved in PGA financial shenanigans.
Legal fees...any conflict of interest with PGAT board members? When was the last time an audit was conducted properly? The members (players) should demand a financial audit so they can see where all the money has gone.
Before the merger everyone said the merger was inevitable. The shocking part was that it was so rushed. I think the sponsors told Jay “if you don’t get these guys back together, we are out”. I think brooks winning PGA was like adding gasoline to a fire. It sped up the process
Just discovered your channel this week and have become hooked on your videos. We need a lot more people following your approach of "...all issues have a logical conclusion. Some are hard to find, some are obvious and some don't make any sense. But they do exist and we'll find them; facts and logic will show the way."
Great show guys and congrats on nailing it with the April "plot" episode! Enjoying the channel and the unique content and info you provide that I'm not seeing anywhere else. You make a great team and thanks B-Team for keeping things on track and Dr. Darkstar for the 140 guy insights, haha
The latest talk of how PGA players are going to receive an equity stake in the new venture, and that LIV guys are going to be punished makes absolutely no sense to me. I can believe that they won’t get any shares, or will at least have to earn shares going forward, but anything punitive towards them could never pass legal muster. It would also be fair to make them have to qualify, though the stars, at least, are qualified based on past performance. They did nothing illegal in leaving, and the suits they filed were obviously not baseless, especially if they have contributed to bringing about this new deal. There is much to be hashed out over the rest of this year. There is no way the tour could get away with suspending players for taking the exact same money they are now accepting.
Don’t think the equity stakes the PGA TOUR players will* receive for their loyalty will be significantly valuable. It’ll be like the Amazon drivers who have 140 dollars worth of equity stake in the company. Nothing more than a wise public relations investment/ pat on the back for the TOUR players
Agreed that LIV players won't get punished. They have already been punished by losing owgr points and not being able to play on pga/dp tour. Also copped reputational harm. If anything they deserve a greater bonus from PIF now that this deal has taken place.
Thx Phenrica - PGAT was in trouble from the beginning. So, they chose to make it a “morality contest” hoping that would be enough since their business model and cash were not. The only winning move was not to play. The PGAT should have taken Phil’s advice and put more money in the middle and especially given the players a meaningful share of their digital rights, image rights. Probably would have been enough if done early and aggressively.
I’m a bit confused. Why would losing 25-50 players cause the PGA to lose money? The TV contracts are long term and would not be impacted from something of this nature so quickly. I’m a member who annually host a PGA Tournament. The club spends $800 annually to prepare the course to the PGA’s specifications and build the infrastructure for the event. The Company Partner who Sponsors the event pays the prize money and donations the PGA gives away. PGA pays nothing and shares no money with either the host club or sponsor.
Because the PGAT is seriously mis-managed....the tour members should demand a financial audit to report on where the money is really going...Appoint Jack as tour chairman until the audit is complete
All talk around broadcast deals, reveal the $$ are closely linked to the number of top ranked players. It's part of the PGA Tour's interest in pursuing the changes to the OWGR system, which now greatly favours the US based tour.
I made this point on a Chamblee video as you guys have, anyone that has sat on a board knows that all the power sits with the funds, PIF will protect the LIV guys for their loyalty and have by far the most influence. Justin Rose stating the LIV players should be worried is a victim of the propaganda being blasted out by the PGA right now, there is a lot of saving face going on but anyone who knows how private equity works will have a far better grasp on what's actually going to happen. One of the other points I have been making on these videos is the HYPOCRISY makes me sick and this moral high ground was just a tool used by the PGA. No one talks about the money involved in military spending with the US weapons manufactures, the billions of dollars the Saudis have invested into US banks and corporations, not to mention global sports and the sale of oil to the US every year.
Thx Tony. True. PGAT had really no good defense from the beginning. They chose a “morality contest” which was full of holes. But when your model is failing and cash is short……Even the US President visited Saudi in the middle of it.
I love how Chamblee, Rory and other delusional talking heads feel the merger puts the PGAT in the drivers seat from an organizational standpoint and that Saudi PIF is nothing more than the financing arm, which couldn't be further from the truth. The Saudi PIF acquired the PGAT for the intent and purpose of transforming the professional men's golf game in its image and vision, with LIV as a central component. The shame of it all is that the players and media are being completely misled by Jay and Jimmy Dunne as far as who wears the pants in the relationship. It isn't the PGA Tour despite outward claims of it being otherwise. While they will have more seats on the board and Jay will be chairman, the Saudi PIF has first right of refusal or VETO Power over EVERYTHING! In other words, Jay Monahan can't get up and go to the bathroom without the Saudi PIF's approval. I find it funny how no one talks about this. If anyone cares to know what is 'really' going to happen with the two tours and how they will be positioned, I highly encourage you to read Alan Shipnuck's article last Thursday on The Firepit Collective, which he was given a front row seat firepitcollective.com/what-now-becomes-of-liv-golf-ask-yasir-al-rumayyan/. This is in stark contrast to how he was persona non-gratta just over a year ago for breaking the Phil Mickelson story. He's now been embraced by Yasir Al-Rumayyan and been given an insders view of what the long-game is for the Saudi PIF and the role LIV will play in it. In short, LIV isn't goiong anywhere anytimes soon. In fact, its significance and global reach is only going to grow - especially with players like Hideki and Jon Rahm free to join. Anyone that thinks the current LIV guys are going to have to pay fines to be reinsstated in the PGAT and or D.P. World Tour is off their rocker. Quite the opposite, they will be the protected class for taking the leap of faith they did a year ago. As President Trump declared in a public statement made last July, the PGA Tour players that didn't accept the LIV offers will be the one's who get screwed when the merger occurs, as the financial incentives made to them for jumping ship will no longer be on the table. Thus, Rory, Spieth, J.T., Fowler, J. Rose, Rham, Cantlay, Schauffele, Day, Scott, etc. who were loyal to the PGAT, quite foolishly in hindsight and didn't accept the LIV offers, screwed themselves out of a big payday, which is why many of the top guys are so butt hurt. If Rory and the rest of the guys think Jay is going to make things right for them in light of this and that the PGAT will have controlling interest, he's being fed lies in order lessen the blow and shock when news of the merger broke without his or anyone's knowledge and input from the PAC.
People saying LIV will be no more and Jay will get rid of LIV now makes no sense from a business point of view in my mind, would love to hear your thoughts on this
Think about what is going to happen. This agreement makes it so there is a pathway back for players to get back on the PGA tour. Played didn’t go to liv because it was something revolutionary or they cared about growing the game. They left for the payout. With this agreement, purses on the PGA will be going up. There will be no incentive to travel the world to play golf when they can do it from home
@@LegolasFan69 Time will tell - but according to Jimmy Dunne - Monahan will be responsible for LIV after this year - and he can determine whether or not it continues
i agree with you guys the meetings happened a few months ago. Heres one indicator i had, Paul mcginley left the dp world tour bord in around the time of the masters without divulging details. Stating he didnt want to conflict with his analyst work. Paul was a senior senior member of european golf and i dont believe for a second Pelley was involved in this deal without his knowledge
@@ThinkingManShow I’ll be watching the sky coverage of the Canadian to see if anyone asks him about it But mc ginley resigning from the board was a un endorsement of what Pelley was doing
Asking why Faber didn't ask these questions. That's not what he does. Dark Star validates it. Great job guys. As Always. You have had it right since the beginning. Question: Does the golf channel and their actors survive? I found the most interesting part of the whole experience was the LIV on air on course talent. SuAnn Heng and Trey Mullins are super stars. Except for Dottie Pepper The PGAT broadcast has nothing.
If the Golf Channel wishes to survive as a going concern Brandel Chamblee and Paul McGinley will be gone. I think both know it, which explains why they continue to bad-mouth LIV and the Saudi PIF at the risk of their own career beheading.
The PIF/Phil/Greg need to have a united vision for global pro golf, that includes betting, global streaming, global teams, new big events outside the US, maybe even Tiger's simulation league....
Guys this was a brilliant break down . Let me throw some little easter eggs in . What did Phil say ? " I know stuff" . Yes this revolves around Augusta and by extension Ed H . I don't think it's just insolvency that drove this . Look into the curious case of the 750 million golf development just across the river from ANGC . Literally a drive n a 6 iron away . Massively rumoured to be Saudis. So this activates Ed . I love the wine cellar meeting it makes sense . Going back to before LIV season started and before masters Phil was seen at lunch with PC . Lots of rumour ensued and a tour caddy was saying publicly he had heard firstly PC was going to LIV then shortly after that Phil was going to grandfather a team for him and retiring . OK he stayed on tour. Why is this important ? Same player is now on the policy board . Perhaps it was Phil who was the guy they got to call Yasir after the wine cellar. Phil was on radio silence all week . Anyways two little adds to your theory which to me is very logical .
Good post. I'll add though that Cantlay and Xander apparently were waiting for LIV to get the OWGR points nod before accepting any deal, because neither have won a major yet and they need the points to get into majors etc.
@SiLo Mixing and Mastering Rahm also very close. Bobby Brown on Pull hook golf podcast was one saying about PC . Bobby used to be Dustins caddy . If there was any truth in phil grandfathering his team to PC it would make it intresting . Patrick is on the policy board who will give go ahead on this entity . 5 directors who I'm sure are on board and 5 players . They need a players vote . Might just be a coincidence .
@@Kevin-l4 Fair points there. I read that Rory is chairman of player advisory council until 2024, will be interesting to see who replaces him and if they’re pro LIV/PIF. Also on the board are Hoffman, Malnati and Simpson along with Rory and Cantlay….PC & RM are obviously on opposite sides of the LIV debate but I’m not sure about the other 3
@@Kevin-l4 Very interesting. The most important bit of info I have come across. I was wondering how on earth they would get enough player votes after Jay Monahan completely shafted the pros out of a literal billion dollars. It is insane to even think about.
@SiLo Mixing and Mastering obviously this is all pure speculation . Rory I'd imagine was there to push thru TGL . That itself could be used to leverage him to accept . I wouldn't want to be any of the 5 . Unless pots of gold appear for everyone on tour .
B-Team, I rewatched "the kingdoms" vid from 2 months ago and I think the revelation you and DS have had since then was that Augusta knew the velocity of the financial downturn timeline of the PGAT first with Ed H being the ultimate insider mover/shaker. So the kingdom conversations devolved into it's let's make a deal quickly with PIF before that kind of talk gets out (i.e. PGAT b/k).
Thx Steve. Our “Masters Plot” episode was built on our theory that PGAT was going to run out of cash - but we didn’t think it would be so quick. Hats off in a way to Ed Herlihy for taking bold action starting around late Oct 2022 (in our working theory) and recruiting Jimmy Dunne to the PGAT Board. That is our fav part of The Plot so far - that the “meeting before the meeting” was Herlihy and Dunne hatching a plan to save the PGAT by inviting LIV / PIF into the US-Euro golf ecosystem.
It should be required viewing for anyone in the media who thinks they know how this all went down and what the net effect is. There are too many talking heads who a) have no clue of the ramifications of this deal or b) are purposely carrying the water for the PGAT top make this appear as it's something its not, which is shameful.
@@Kevin-l4 We don't even know if that offer is still on the table, or if it still has any value to John. After winning the Masters, surely his price would need to be re-negotiated - at the very least...
@Jeff McKinnon yes it's a big if. Let's say he was to go . It's gamechanger and the deal will need driven thru . Lots of players can be offered equity in LIV. They might be prepared to give up another 25% on each team . That's room for at least another dozen big names . Others can be given cash contracts .
Makes a lot of sense . This has been on cards since last year and just needed cards to fall in place . Him winning masters was a massive one . All the twitter stuff last year did have merits and people within Spanish golf were talking about him going as an open secret. Watch out for Hideki too
Rahm should be well compensated. Also other recent major winners including Scheffler, Thomas, Fitzpatrick, Matsuyama, Morikawa, Woodland, Lowry and Spieth. Also Rory, Molinari, Rose and Adam Scott. All except Rahm should get a lesser amount than they would have received if they took the risk and joined LIV. This would keep all major winners since 2017 happy. Current top 10 players should also get some incentive - Cantlay, Schauffele, Homa, Hovland.
more likely the deal was going to be leaked - and they needed to get ahead of that . Rahm very well may have been planning to Jump - It would make sense after US open - but one of these days you people will realize this has always been about money - golf is so secondary what players did or didn't do are meaningless.
@@2Thes22 "if they took the risk" But they didn't. The compensation should be allowance to play LIV events for the generous purses. That should be their incentive. They risked nothing.
Let's face it, the needle mover for the tour is injured, mostly retired, living in Jupiter FLA and irreplaceable as a way to monetize TV coverage and generate revenue. Bringing the boys back who went rogue and collected lottery size income from LIV will not move the needle again. It'll be like the lyric from Aerosmith, "Same ol story, same ol song and dance my friends" My unsolicited thought would be to pass a new cart use policy for the PGA (for a certain semi-retired golfer) and maybe considered combing the talent of the ever growing LPGA into PGA events
There are many global golf opportunities, that the PGAT in its myopic state failed to see....Monahan's vision was to maim all other tours and make them feeder tours for the US tour....thats good for US fans but 50% of golf fans don't live in America...The DP tour is in serious trouble, due to Monahan and Pelley...The PGAT existed before Tiger (it was great, and so where the other global tourneys) and it will be great after Tiger....
I'd argue the plot with EH and JD was hatched at the 2022 Memorial Tournament; Ed Herlihy, Jimmy Dunne and Fred Ridley all played in that Pro/Am, and were all three playing in that pro/am this year as well, probably buttoning up all of the details.
Very interesting analysis. Appreciate the business perspective you bring on this. I imagine all 3 tours will remain, with some potential changes to them. No reason to get rid of LIV. The LIV format/concept is more appealing. It's also got 2 current major holders. Many major winners. Keep the vids coming darkstar and b team.
Thx Cam. Agree with you that three tours will stay. The problem for a follow up episode is, oddly, the Majors. They are the heart of pro golf but not owned by the pros. So, the mission for Newco is to create 2-6 new “majors” that it owns. The President’s Cup can be rebranded as the Champions Cup and then maybe The Players can be improved. But then greenfield. They need some talented creatives to help including players like Phil and perhaps Gary Player and Trevino (and others).
Is there any possibility of pif acquiring the current majors? Then they would have it all. Or would they want to acquire them? Maybe there is a similar strategy to create some 'majors' that out compete the current majors. Massive prize grab. Or incorporating teams in to all tours then having a teams major. The masters will not want to become irrelevant. Hard to imagine any events that actually out do the majors though. In terms of significance/meaning in the eyes of players and fans. Agreed it will take some creativity.
Five tours out of this will remain. LIV will become the centerpiece and will serve as the NewCo's global team tour. The DP and Asian Tour's will become a single global tour of its own and be the feeder/relegation tour for LIV. The PGA Tour will likely continue on in some form or fashion as is and primarily be the North American Tour. The Korn Ferry Tour will continue to be the feeder/relegation tour for it. Lastly, there's the Champions Tour which no one is talking about in all of this. The players on this tour are impacted by this merger as well, but it's funny how no one is talking about it - either in the media or the players themselves. The biggest unknown in all of this is what becomes of the FedEx Cup? Is FedEx going to maintain its sponorship of the playoffs given the change in ownership? This is yet another facet of the new world golf order no one is talking about. Should they drop their sponsorship does it signal the end to the current end of season playoff series?
I am old like you two, and said the very same thing to my son, when the split happened with top 10 players leaving the PGA tour to play in the new LIV league. Knowing who was behind the LIV golf league, I knew the PGA tour was going to struggle keeping sponsors, without the best players to sell their tournaments on a week to week basis. The golf media, and golf journalists condemning the athletes for taking dirty money, look slackjaw, only to find out this was all going to happen regardless of their uppity moral stance they took. They owe these men an apology for denigrating them, but I wont hold my breath! When the Big Moneymen in this world decide to make a deal, there are no Morals. When guys like Brandel, and the like talk, try not to take them too seriously. SMH!! 🧐🧐🧐
@@1362pc Their days of being part of the professional golf scene are numbered and they know it, which is why they are acting like petulant children and getting their last licks in before they're shone the door.
@@MikeBodo Hi Michael..I guess no surprise you follow these guys also...Thinking men...ha ha...I think this PIf deal is 80% BS....a nothing deal, but the announcement has a purpose for the Tour mafia
B-Team, side note going forward, the Saudi Oil Minister has said multiple times over the the last decade that their long term target oil price is $80 to meet all the needs of The Kingdom (SA). Recently, you heard him say (when oil was low 70's) it wouldn't be wise to bet on the price of oil trending down. Informative to your future discussions as that price foretells the amount of freedom the PIF has to spend on their more ambitious projects. Lots of internal subsidizing goes on in SA to keep down the various factions inline.
I like your content, as an Aussie, just a reminder, world golf does not equal the USA=PGAT, this was PGAT mistake/strength, for 50 years it was the school bully and sucked the life out of global golf, and ensured international stars had to play effectively permanently in the USA for OWGR/Cash (PIF just became a bigger bully), unlike the ATP in tennis which is global. My tip is LIV becomes 10 featured tournaments probably branded ARAMCO, and they will play a high ratio OUS (made for TV), which also gives versatility to lengthen the season/without wearing the players out, i,e. playing in middle east, South Africa, Australia, Singapore allows major events outside the Northern hemisphere summer. This becomes the global part with teams and partial ownership from the big name players, and I agree it is probably 9 teams of 6 (GB&I, Europe, Africa, LATAM, Australasia, Asia and 3 teams from the USA/Canada - you can name the teams now). It will also appeal to non golf and younger fans and critically GROWS the amount of TV content. The PGAT will effectively be left whole, and given its non profit status it really has no ability to be exported. The 10 mega events will be scheduled to not clash with the majors or the 6-10 major PGAT events (Bay Hill, Memorial, Phoenix etc that matter and have TV power). Players could even become a 5th major officially. Players will be able to travel back and forth between the ARAMCO events and rest of PGA tour. In reality the big 25-50 names will play the Aramco, players, 4 majors and 4-6 of the remaining PGAT events and be encouraged to split them between them to keep the events meaningful, meantime the bullshit 2nd tier events in Bermuda/Hawaii and other places just go away. My tip is PIF also expand investment in Asia, Australia, DP etc, again under the global expansion message. That is how you grow the global game, with the USA largely saturated and trended to an older audience.
Thx Craig. Agreed. We think they keep LIV branding and surely hope they change the team names (please!). We see the primary mission of Newco as: 1. creating a calendar for all tours that works for all tours and the Majors. 1A. creating at least 2 new Majors that Newco owns. A rebranded Presidents Cup (let’s call it Champions Cup with LIV v PGAT) and maybe an improved Players Championship 2. Compelling inter-league play between PGAT and LIV. This could take many forms. Team only? That’s probably the most interesting. If you’re on Twitter, join us there for more conversation.
Blauvelt - yes. Al Rumayyan can well afford to be generous on the “who takes credit” front. He’s happy, and smart, to let PGAT spin and save face with their players and fans as best they can.
For the average joe out there, the PGA Tour is basically comprised of being a US Tour, first & foremost. When you here the likes of Brandel & others talk about the game of golf it's basically talking about the game in the US. Yes it's about the largest market in golf but there is more to golf than the US. I heard Davis Love talking about Rory growing the game as he is now on the PGAT player council. What absolute rubbish. I haven't heard anything, anything from him about growing the game outside of the PGA Tour. If he is growing the game why doesn't he have TGL been played in Korea or Japan each week rather than the US & maybe have Hideki (Asia's biggest star in sport) push the golf narrative in a golf crazy market ??? Seeing golfers playing against a simulator for me, doesn't grow the game for us other than growing the purses of several dozen already highly paid golfers. LIV Golf comes along & is doing what should have been done 30 years. Sure, they've been paid handsomely to play because they've taken a bigger risk with a start up company so why wouldn't they. This is what Greg Norman has been wanting for many years & we've wanted for many years. Players like himself who played all over the world for many many years have always seen the game as a global sport & the opportunities that it has to actually grow the game unlike this myopic view from anyone associated with the PGA Tour such as Rory, Brandel, Davis & Jay. I attended the LIV Golf event in Adelaide & outside of the Masters, it was the best golf tournament I've been to, period. I hope the LIV players don't go back to the PGA...well particularly if they are still to be fined by the PGAT. They're happy where they are doing what they are doing plus the ability to play the majors. Great, why go back. All they have to do is fix up what the world ranking system which is so much biased towards the PGA Tour it's not funny. The better choice would be the TUGR system being a performance based system, far better & more fair. The golfing community need to address golf on a global scale & this current merger still doesn't address it outside of an umbrella of money from PIF. You still currently have separate entities. I'm not for any tour. We just want a global sport balanced in a calendar year with everyone enjoying themselves, both player & fan. The Majors being the pinnacle & the Presidents Cup & Ryder Cups being neutral events & not controlled by any tour. Then you have LIV, PGAT, DP tours doing what they are doing in any way they see fit but would prefer a system of tournaments under an better "eco-system" that is easy to follow worldwide. The fact the 90% of players don't want Jay at the helm from the reactions at the meeting at the Canadian Open shows that players will now seek out other opportunities like playing at LIV or even the Asian Tour (thanks to LIV Golf was given a lifeline post Covid as the Asian Tour was in dire straits & I don't see anyone from the PGAT mentioning all the positive things about that) as a means to simply see the world, make a living but be happier in the own pursuits in playing golf.
I like the analogy that Tiger world deflated before it could open, signs of things to come. LIV can be a great expansion of international golf with a US base, beyond DW ability.
NUCO will be sure that the schedules of the tours don't step on themselves as the players can play events they chose, some being mandatory tour events. That opens up the most lucrative purses to all NUCO members. No?
I know a lot of what you two say on this particular subject is debate and conjecture for obvious reasons but very measured and intriguing. I was waiting for this program to happen as I said to people I will wait for TMS to talk about this because I had no clue how this was going to work etc etc. Again very interesting show. Look forward to the next one.
TMRW has been outflanked. We would love! to listen in on that meeting between Tiger and Mike McCarley. One would assume they’re thinking hard about how to regroup.
"Grow the Game" was mentioned during 'Brandel's rant just recently, He talked about the PGA sponsorship of the China PGA Tour. Now.....This is an article from Tom Anderson April 2022 titled ‘The PGA’s China Problem’….PGA Tour China is one of several developmental circuits sponsored by The PGA. The PGA Tour appears unfazed by China’s appalling human rights record, which currently includes accusations of brutal persecution of its Uyghur Muslim population. The PGA Tour’s failure to file a 990 form disclosing its financial dealings with Chinese private equity firm Yao Capital As a tax-exempt organization, the PGA Tour is required to disclose such business dealings in China. It seems a clear case of the PGA Tour trying to have it both ways: gaining entry into the lucrative and largely untapped Chinese golf market, while flying under the radar of U.S. regulators and the IRS.
Another great show! I’d love to know what you guys think will happen in terms of players returning to the PGA Tour. Personally, I feel like LIV guys would need to sit out for at least one year, especially if LIV dies. That’d be a good way for the PGAT and the PGAT and DPWT players who stayed away from LIV to save face.
People forget that the US OPEN, the British Open and the Masters are not PGA events and are the top viewed golfing events. Take those events away and you only have one PGA event worth watching and only because TIGER WOODS is limping around the golf course. Riviera. No one watches more than 10 minutes of any other PGA events.
This could have been good. Correcting "140" all the time was not clever but irritating. Either rehearse or just use darkhorse info and do the report by yourself.
True. And we’ll assume that #PhilWasSORight will play out and the players trust in management has ended. In fact, if Jay has to go it will be for that reason primarily. You can’t lose trust with most of the employees and keep your CEO job.
@@ThinkingManShow I think Jay may have done enough ass kissing prior to the announcement of the deal to keep his job regardless what the players think of him.
@@ThinkingManShow They had to give him something for his surrender, or he would have burnt the place to the ground, leaving them a bankrupt PGA, as their prize. Don't forget, Jay never asked for any of this to happen. Him being "dirty" has nothing to do with the Saudi's buying up golf. These are 2 seperate issues, and Christ, himself couldn't have stopped this take-over. We can't just hang everything onto Jay Monahan... Can we?
Money and lawsuits. Neither side, especially the PGA, did not want the public to know about the dirty laundry. PIF could care less about dirty laundry, they will do what they have always done, what they want to.
seriously ? You think between the PGA tour and the Chairman of the PIF - And Saudi Aramco - that the PGA tour has things they do not want public - from a deposition ? WOW - I bet the Tour headquarters are at area 51 too.
As a Brit. I have concerns about the future of the European tour. It’s been merged, sold out and downgraded by the present commissioner and now faces a future as a feeder tour. If Monahan is to be crucified then Keith Pelley should be right alongside. My hope is that your commercial regulators will nay say this Saudi “ takeover” and golf will walk itself back from this precipice.
gentlemen, THANK YOU - ! have been waiting for your exhaustive two cents on this crazy matter. as usual you hit it out of the park. a few asides ...why have so few seemed to grasp the notion that the pga had run out of money ... also viz the saudis, yes their PIF is reportedly valued at approx 670B$, but if the norwegion sovereign fund is valued at 1.4T$, then how many trillions in fact does MBS have available at his finger-tips, this entire affair - that is, owning golf - will have cost them nothing ... also i'm wondering if greg norman doesn't wander around with the clause in his contract that details his payout upon a merger, printed and tucked into his wallet, i wonder what that round number might be, may partly explain why we haven't heard a peep out of him ... gotta hand it to the saudis, these guys have just begun a very long game, 25 to 50 yrs is my guess. their goal is that, when the oil runs out, they just press a button and the same money flows in from half the world that they intend to own by then. with respect to sports, i see them going after tennis next ...
One thing that must happen is that Pro Golf has a season...maybe Mar-Oct...then the best players can play more during the season and have 4 months break each year.
B-Team, do you think that it has ever crossed Tiger's mind now that if he had sided with PIF, he would have been a lock for running the PGAT within 3-5 years?
Excellent point Steve. Ya know, he’s smart enough to be thinking that now. He picked the wrong ally. Tiger has no “spreadsheet experience” in business so it likely didn’t occur to him to look at all the angles. For the better, running a tour is not his first, best destiny.
Lets put the emotion aside for a minute....Do you really think PIF after investing $1Billion in LIV over past 2 years and the success LIV has had worldwide will let Jay Monahan disband LIV golf in 2024 ??. Come on !!. PGAT USA, DP Tour Europe and LIV World ....3 Tours being fully funded by PIF where players will be able to play wherever they choose without harassment, fines and bans. PIF has total control in the destiny of world golf.
Thx Tony. True. We think PGAT will get rounds of capital with strings attached (traunches) as payment for LIV getting equal access to Majors and inter-league play, and some kind of access to The Players and a rebranded Presidents Cup (let’s call it the Champions Cup). PGAT will have nothing to say about LIV strategically. Newco’s biggest job operationally will be to create a calendar of events for all tours that works for all tours and the Majors - not easy! We need a whole show on that topic. Biggest single winner in this deal is the Presidents Cup (rebranded Champions Cup). PIF is probably asking the PGAT to contribute that asset to Newco so Newco can own a Major. PIF will want to build the Champions Cup into a huge thing every two years or maybe every year. Newco and pro golf needs to own at least 2 new Majors. The great oddity of pro golf is it doesn’t own the 4 most important tournaments and biggest money makers; or the Ryder Cup.
Thx Paul as always. PIF has total control. Each new traunch of capital is tied to performance and strategic metrics. If Newco management misses, next cash infusion is withheld.
Rory is completely clueless based on his commentsat the Canadian Open. Someone needs to sit him down and offer a lecture on how things are really going to work.
I would have like you to discuss why Jay , Rory and the PGA in general seem to be reading from a different script. Do you think it's all show to try and appear in control or do they really believe that they are in control.
Most likely - the PGAT leadership is continuing to do what it has been doing for years per Phil: crap on the players. In this case, they are emphasizing board seats and heading operations of “Newco”. It’s a lie of omission by not saying they are out of cash and PIF now controls overall strategy by means of conditional infusions of capital. If PGAT leadership does not do what PIF wants, no more money is contributed.
@@ThinkingManShow In addition, the new structure is setup where the Saudi PIF has first right of refusal on any initiatives Jay, the board and players wish to implement. In the world of politics its called Veto Power. This makes them the ultimate arbiters in the direction the Newco and all its subsidiaries, i.e. the professional golf tours, go in.
The first right of refusal is, we think, with respect to additional investors to “Newco”. So that’s an anti-dilution provision but we’ll have to see how the actual deal comes together. There’s a very long way to go it seems before an actual legally binding agreement is reached. Many many many details to be worked.
@@ThinkingManShow If the Saudi PIF is the financing arm behind the for profit company, they're not just going to let Jay and the board make major structural decisions autonomously without their input and or approval . Second, if the PGAT is burning through cash at the rate that's being portrayed, they're not in a position to do a lot of heavy-handed negotiating or demand much. They're bargaining from a position of weakness, not strength, which is never a good thing. With how sudden and rushed this appears to be on the surface, if I read between the lines correctly the PGAT needs to get a deal done and soon in order to get a fresh infusion of operating cash.
Absolutely everybody and I mean everybody needs to stop calling this a merger between the PGA and LIV golf tours. What it actually is the PIF as an investor buying an exclusive stake in the PGA tour. Whether it becomes an actual controlling stake over time remains yet to be seen? Monahan has been very careful to say in every interview that the PGA will keep complete control. Really?
Thx DR54 - Rumayyan agreed (given the press release) to allow the PGAT to spin the deal to save face with players and fans. That’s in the PIF’s interest anyway. And Rumayyan can afford to be generous. If PIF’s objective is faster “access” to global investments, then a healthy PGAT in rivalry with LIV (and LIV Europe United to replace DP) is best case.
The sole purpose of NUCO, LLC is to allow for and protect PIF investment. PIF certainly isn't going to donate to Jay's 501. My guess; Jay isn't far from the door.
Russ - that will likely remain a secret no matter what spin/info becomes public. Our theory is Mr Herlihy discussed the plan with R&A and USGA in a very private way to make sure the idea was good with them. We like thinking they did it at The Masters as the top people were all there anyway. They may all very well be members of Augusta in fact.
RUclips golf has more viewers than the pga tour. Young golfers watching guys shoot 90 has more viewership than the "best golf on the planet" let that sink in. Jay's failure to capture that demographic opened the door for all of this to happen. Ricky Fowlers orange outfits missed too many cuts and fat perez is a bigger golf celebrity than half the guys playing on tour.
Thx Andrew - that’s the tell. Why move so fast? Lightning fast. Running out of cash is fear and pain defined. Getting out of pain becomes the only mission. Re. Lawsuits: if the PGAT was printing money, it would think it could handle the lawsuits - at least for a good while longer. But they chose an early, honorable surrender so they could still negotiate the withdrawal and not be wiped out entirely. Mr Herlihy and Dunne are smart, savvy players. Die hard PGAT supporters owe those two gentlemen a great deal.
Back in the late seventies the sport of cricket (Americans can google it) was divided by a breakaway league led by billionaire Kerry Packer, called World Series Cricket, which paid players 20 times more than they were being paid...it lasted a few years before the establishment gave in, and the sport unified with all the great improvements WSC made....now cricket is very innovative and full of money..most players now are multi-millionaires, and its the 2nd most watched sport in the world....Many things the same with LIV v PGAT, except after Packer got the TV rights for cricket, he walked away.
Agreed Paul. TMRW has an additional challenge. And unlike LIV teams, the players don’t own the teams. Maybe they will rework their model. If so, once again PhilWasSORight.
@@ThinkingManShow The LIV teams model is smart, but needs global geographic teams...the lesser players can go back to the other tours and the teams get bolstered with better players...need a Japan team and Korean team added...Greg has had to work with what players he got
Spot on Paul. LIV Japan and LIV Korea would be big additions. At least a LIV Asia United or some combo of these. Join us on twitter for more conversation.
Robert! Thx as always. Yes, a show about Greg’s role to date and future is needed. LIV is the global brand PIF has already sunk a bunch of money into and a younger audience is the most important component of pro golf moving forward and an inter-league rivalry can help build audience and the PGAT doesn’t have the calendar or resources to build audience outside the US - so, somebody with talent needs to run LIV going forward. Why not Greg?
Traunches / rounds of capital contributions tied directly to meeting performance and strategic metrics - as PIF directs - is total control for the PIF.
in reality, it was not a merger it was a sale of the PGA to the Saudis. LIV is on the verge of folding because of massive losses in everyone of LIV's tournament and LIV cannot recruit anymore high profile golfers to join. LIV can never compete with the PGA and so to save LIV the Saudis bought the PGA and call it a 'merger.
Rahm should be well compensated. Also other recent major winners including Scheffler, Thomas, Fitzpatrick, Matsuyama, Morikawa, Woodland, Lowry and Spieth. Also Rory, Molinari, Rose and Adam Scott. All except Rahm should get a lesser amount than they would have received if they took the risk and joined LIV. This would keep all major winners since 2017 happy. Current top 10 players should also get some incentive - Cantlay, Schauffele, Homa, Hovland.
@@Kevin-l4 I remember Greg Norman saying several times last year that LIV golf is designed to work alongside the PGA Tour, which is reflected in this year's LIV schedule where they have tournaments on the weeks where the PGAT has their 'lesser' events. The combination of the 2 has been great for objective golf fans who can watch both LIV and the PGAT events without being brainwashed by the anti-LIV BS that has now been exposed as hypocritical nonsense.
Tony - good question. Ryder Cup owned by PGA of America not a winner in this deal. They could sell part of it to Newco and share rather than compete with a sure-to-be-coming LIV v PGA Tour “Champions Cup” (to replace Presidents Cup). We would advise sell a stake to Newco with some provisions regarding maintenance of history and prominence.
I’m not even American guys but as an Irish man we’ve had plenty of tragedy’s and if someone like Monaghan had invoked the names of those lost ( god rest them ) and then gone back on it. Let’s just say he would need a decent security team I mean family members protested Liv events encouraged by his words. This isn’t golf, it’s not the game I grew playing
@@ThinkingManShow its pretty scary that Irish americans are all over this deal. I have to say im not proud but it is what it is. I just want our national open to get more respect have you ever played golf over here ?
Agreed Irish Open! We have not played Ireland yet and that is sad. It is a special place, history and people. Ironic that LIV and the Saudis probably see that too and will elevate golf there; and not the DP or PGAT.
@@ThinkingManShow well fyi the Irish open get seriously large crowds. Some of the best support out there in the European tour and always has. Also the golf digest no. 1 course in the word is of course in Ireland. Our open struggles primarily because idiots like Rory don’t play it. I mean there is no excuse for not playing your national open imo. Hand in your passport territory
We’ve said there outta be a LIV Ireland team. How bout Paddy H as captain? Along that line, we’d love to see Lee Trevino captain a LIV team. Non-playing captains could be better all around. Have to think on that.
Hey guys, get the heading on the podcast right..the PGA did NOT merge with (- - - ). If you study Jimmy Dunne's statements, a new entity has been formed between the PGA and PIF...and the PGA has the right to dismantle (- - - ) should it wish to do so. Essentially ( - - ) has been losing money and PIF wants to realign itself with the PGA and put the Commissionaer in charge of ANY basis on which ( - ) players will be re-admitted into the Tour....maybe if they agree to pay their way back in. No way is ( - - ) winning the fight against the PGA.
yeah, the LIv teams is a winner, and must be geographic: -Japan -Korea -Asia -Australia -Sth Africa -Britain -Europe -Spain -Sth America -5 x US teams total 14 teams
The only thing you guys got wrong from the Masters....post 2 months ago was the involvement of the top PGA players. That fact to me is the most crucial part of the LIV hostile takeover. I love LIV, and everything about it. But when I heard Jimmy Dunne claimed that the PGA was in such a great financial position to negotiate w/Al Rumayyan's PIF kitty was laughable😀. Can u discuss some of the lies these hypocrites are spewing out to the media platforms. Thanks for all the great info!
I mean that’s just normal corporate speak you’d expect to hear. You always present these deals as positives and from positions of strength or opportunity to the public in any M&A transaction. That’s just par for the course for any deal. But even more so it would be idiotic to say something about we entered the deal because we had to or we’d run out of cash simply from a PR sense alone that would exacerbate rhetoric of PIF purchasing golf and so on. But even more so you wouldn’t say something like that before a deal is officially closed. Until the deal closes both entities have to continue operating as normal and allow the merger process to work itself out in the background. Until the deal is done you have to operate as if the deal isn’t going to happen just in case it doesn’t go through, even more so with one like this that has so many hurdles in the path to it closing. There is a lot of risk with the antitrust stuff nuking this thing. So the idea that you’d come forward and basically say you were tanked without the deal before it’s done would be absurd because if it doesn’t go through how do you continue operating moving forward if all of your partners have now been told you can’t survive? You can’t which is why you speak on the deal like he did as anybody would.
Thank you, guys, for a thorough approach to issues that are being glossed over elsewhere. In my lifetime (I'm 64), I've seen sports league startups that push the establishment. Those with leverage or with perceived value become part of the respective establishment - AFL, ABA, WHA. This is why the XFL or USFL will not merge with the NFL - there's no need or value of any kind. If LIV forced the establishment to yield and accept an incredible eating of crow, the PGA establishment needed the relationship. We know it is on several levels and there is a myriad of strategic layers in the mix, but it does boil down to the PGA saw the need and value in making a deal. Those who claim the PIF ceded control to the PGA and is only a funding mechanism/sponsor/sidekick are with deluding themselves or deliberately being untruthful. No organization with the money, power, strategy, and options that PIF has is simultaneously a rube in the deal-making world. The PIF may have changed tactics, but their strategy prevailed. The door has been kicked down and involvement in the big four of American sports is wide, wide open.
100% agree 👍
Well said.
Thx Thomas. Yep - the side with the capital calls all the strategic shots or the next cash infusion doesn’t come. Of course the PGAT will run its own tournaments assuming they do that well. We’ll have to wait and see (and speculate of course!) what Newco will green light for inter-league play, recruiting, and especially tournament scheduling. Darkstar has a focus and much to say about the calendar and challenges with it.
Yep 100%...
& Monaghan maybe called 'CEO' by title...but he is merely a puppet of the PIF..& he's too stupid to recognise that.
The PIF have the control here ...no doubt.
Whatever the case golf will be the winner & hopefully now the players will all play for decent money...
Mcillroy needs to stop his moaning & just get on with the new enterprise & work on his game...
He's living off a name he made very early on in his career but his canada performance just shows he can implode at any moment.
He is too arrogant..he thinks he's some type of Nicklaus or Woods...but he is totally deluded.
I'm about five minutes in and the guy in the main screen shut the fuck up.…
Ending the lawsuits was also a motivating factor. The litigation costs added to the money crunch for the PGA but also, imho, because opening the books to public scrutiny was a frightening prospect to Monahan and others involved in PGA financial shenanigans.
Lawsuits and DoJ ment discovery and roads back to Georgia
Lawsuit is a minor cost
You mean the PGA and advertisers were paying out more than they could afford? Say it ain't so joe! 😂
Legal fees...any conflict of interest with PGAT board members? When was the last time an audit was conducted properly? The members (players) should demand a financial audit so they can see where all the money has gone.
An anti-trust suit would have exposed the collusion/corruption of the OWGR board
This is the best PGA/LIV video out there. The things you said were obvious to anyone that didn't get all emotional about it.
Thx John; appreciate that. Facts and logic - that’s us. : )
Before the merger everyone said the merger was inevitable. The shocking part was that it was so rushed. I think the sponsors told Jay “if you don’t get these guys back together, we are out”. I think brooks winning PGA was like adding gasoline to a fire. It sped up the process
Thx Dan. Agreed. Brooks winning PGA and LIV putting 3 players in the top 5 at Masters was fuel on the fire.
@@ThinkingManShow great show again. One thing you guys do? Research. Something that’s rare these days
Dan - join us on Twitter for conversation.
Just discovered your channel this week and have become hooked on your videos. We need a lot more people following your approach of "...all issues have a logical conclusion. Some are hard to find, some are obvious and some don't make any sense. But they do exist and we'll find them; facts and logic will show the way."
Thx JacksonMS; very much appreciated! Keep in touch. Look forward to your feedback.
Great show guys and congrats on nailing it with the April "plot" episode! Enjoying the channel and the unique content and info you provide that I'm not seeing anywhere else. You make a great team and thanks B-Team for keeping things on track and Dr. Darkstar for the 140 guy insights, haha
Very kind yTu. Much appreciated!
We’ll keep on it and look for your feedback as we go. 👍
You Guys nailed it back in April! Well done!
Another amazing deal courtesy of The Jay Monahan International School of Business! Way to go Jay!
The latest talk of how PGA players are going to receive an equity stake in the new venture, and that LIV guys are going to be punished makes absolutely no sense to me. I can believe that they won’t get any shares, or will at least have to earn shares going forward, but anything punitive towards them could never pass legal muster. It would also be fair to make them have to qualify, though the stars, at least, are qualified based on past performance. They did nothing illegal in leaving, and the suits they filed were obviously not baseless, especially if they have contributed to bringing about this new deal. There is much to be hashed out over the rest of this year. There is no way the tour could get away with suspending players for taking the exact same money they are now accepting.
Good points John.
Don’t think the equity stakes the PGA TOUR players will* receive for their loyalty will be significantly valuable. It’ll be like the Amazon drivers who have 140 dollars worth of equity stake in the company. Nothing more than a wise public relations investment/ pat on the back for the TOUR players
Agreed that LIV players won't get punished. They have already been punished by losing owgr points and not being able to play on pga/dp tour. Also copped reputational harm. If anything they deserve a greater bonus from PIF now that this deal has taken place.
PGA Tour need the LIV players..if they are fined anything they should refuse to go back
Why can't the PGAT members kick out Monahan...or at least get a detailed audit of any financial mismanagement
What I’ve never understood why the personal attacks to fellow professionals 🤷 great show guys full of intellectual thought 👍
Thx Phenrica - PGAT was in trouble from the beginning. So, they chose to make it a “morality contest” hoping that would be enough since their business model and cash were not. The only winning move was not to play. The PGAT should have taken Phil’s advice and put more money in the middle and especially given the players a meaningful share of their digital rights, image rights. Probably would have been enough if done early and aggressively.
I’m a bit confused. Why would losing 25-50 players cause the PGA to lose money? The TV contracts are long term and would not be impacted from something of this nature so quickly.
I’m a member who annually host a PGA Tournament. The club spends $800 annually to prepare the course to the PGA’s specifications and build the infrastructure for the event. The Company Partner who Sponsors the event pays the prize money and donations the PGA gives away. PGA pays nothing and shares no money with either the host club or sponsor.
Because the PGAT is seriously mis-managed....the tour members should demand a financial audit to report on where the money is really going...Appoint Jack as tour chairman until the audit is complete
All talk around broadcast deals, reveal the $$ are closely linked to the number of top ranked players. It's part of the PGA Tour's interest in pursuing the changes to the OWGR system, which now greatly favours the US based tour.
I made this point on a Chamblee video as you guys have, anyone that has sat on a board knows that all the power sits with the funds, PIF will protect the LIV guys for their loyalty and have by far the most influence. Justin Rose stating the LIV players should be worried is a victim of the propaganda being blasted out by the PGA right now, there is a lot of saving face going on but anyone who knows how private equity works will have a far better grasp on what's actually going to happen.
One of the other points I have been making on these videos is the HYPOCRISY makes me sick and this moral high ground was just a tool used by the PGA. No one talks about the money involved in military spending with the US weapons manufactures, the billions of dollars the Saudis have invested into US banks and corporations, not to mention global sports and the sale of oil to the US every year.
Thx Tony. True.
PGAT had really no good defense from the beginning. They chose a “morality contest” which was full of holes. But when your model is failing and cash is short……Even the US President visited Saudi in the middle of it.
I love how Chamblee, Rory and other delusional talking heads feel the merger puts the PGAT in the drivers seat from an organizational standpoint and that Saudi PIF is nothing more than the financing arm, which couldn't be further from the truth. The Saudi PIF acquired the PGAT for the intent and purpose of transforming the professional men's golf game in its image and vision, with LIV as a central component. The shame of it all is that the players and media are being completely misled by Jay and Jimmy Dunne as far as who wears the pants in the relationship. It isn't the PGA Tour despite outward claims of it being otherwise. While they will have more seats on the board and Jay will be chairman, the Saudi PIF has first right of refusal or VETO Power over EVERYTHING! In other words, Jay Monahan can't get up and go to the bathroom without the Saudi PIF's approval. I find it funny how no one talks about this. If anyone cares to know what is 'really' going to happen with the two tours and how they will be positioned, I highly encourage you to read Alan Shipnuck's article last Thursday on The Firepit Collective, which he was given a front row seat firepitcollective.com/what-now-becomes-of-liv-golf-ask-yasir-al-rumayyan/. This is in stark contrast to how he was persona non-gratta just over a year ago for breaking the Phil Mickelson story. He's now been embraced by Yasir Al-Rumayyan and been given an insders view of what the long-game is for the Saudi PIF and the role LIV will play in it. In short, LIV isn't goiong anywhere anytimes soon. In fact, its significance and global reach is only going to grow - especially with players like Hideki and Jon Rahm free to join. Anyone that thinks the current LIV guys are going to have to pay fines to be reinsstated in the PGAT and or D.P. World Tour is off their rocker. Quite the opposite, they will be the protected class for taking the leap of faith they did a year ago. As President Trump declared in a public statement made last July, the PGA Tour players that didn't accept the LIV offers will be the one's who get screwed when the merger occurs, as the financial incentives made to them for jumping ship will no longer be on the table. Thus, Rory, Spieth, J.T., Fowler, J. Rose, Rham, Cantlay, Schauffele, Day, Scott, etc. who were loyal to the PGAT, quite foolishly in hindsight and didn't accept the LIV offers, screwed themselves out of a big payday, which is why many of the top guys are so butt hurt. If Rory and the rest of the guys think Jay is going to make things right for them in light of this and that the PGAT will have controlling interest, he's being fed lies in order lessen the blow and shock when news of the merger broke without his or anyone's knowledge and input from the PAC.
@@ThinkingManShow The HYPOCRISY is beyond belief, none more so than from Chamblee.
People saying LIV will be no more and Jay will get rid of LIV now makes no sense from a business point of view in my mind, would love to hear your thoughts on this
PGAT was leaking oil . The new entity will never get rid of LIV as its where the greatest room for expansion is.
Agreed. Jay has no control over LIV based on what has been laid out
Think about what is going to happen. This agreement makes it so there is a pathway back for players to get back on the PGA tour. Played didn’t go to liv because it was something revolutionary or they cared about growing the game. They left for the payout. With this agreement, purses on the PGA will be going up. There will be no incentive to travel the world to play golf when they can do it from home
Exactly, don't listen to the fools who say that. Podcasts like NLU being the worst culprits in the youtube golf space, clown show.
@@LegolasFan69 Time will tell - but according to Jimmy Dunne - Monahan will be responsible for LIV after this year - and he can determine whether or not it continues
No one can afford to be loyal. 😂
Phil was right about the PGA all along.
My vote is for Phil to be the new one in charge as the PLAYER/COMMISSIONER!
At the very least Phil should be on the PGAT board...he now looks like the smartest guy in the room...
i agree with you guys the meetings happened a few months ago.
Heres one indicator i had, Paul mcginley left the dp world tour bord in around the time of the masters without divulging details.
Stating he didnt want to conflict with his analyst work. Paul was a senior senior member of european golf and i dont believe for a second Pelley was involved in this deal without his knowledge
march 16th to be exact is when he resigned from the board
Good point. 👍
Juve - like that data point. 👍
@@ThinkingManShow I’ll be watching the sky coverage of the Canadian to see if anyone asks him about it
But mc ginley resigning from the board was a un endorsement of what Pelley was doing
Asking why Faber didn't ask these questions. That's not what he does. Dark Star validates it. Great job guys.
As Always. You have had it right since the beginning. Question: Does the golf channel and their actors survive? I found the most interesting part of the whole experience was the LIV on air on course talent. SuAnn Heng and Trey Mullins are super stars. Except for Dottie Pepper The PGAT broadcast has nothing.
Yes...I'm with them at every LIV tournament. The depth, quality and creativity of people involved in the production/operations is mind-boggling.
If the Golf Channel wishes to survive as a going concern Brandel Chamblee and Paul McGinley will be gone. I think both know it, which explains why they continue to bad-mouth LIV and the Saudi PIF at the risk of their own career beheading.
This whole thing is mind blowing. This event parallels Reagan out spending the USSR, forcing their demise. Unreal. History repeats in mysterious ways.
This goes way beyond golf.
The PIF/Phil/Greg need to have a united vision for global pro golf, that includes betting, global streaming, global teams, new big events outside the US, maybe even Tiger's simulation league....
Guys this was a brilliant break down . Let me throw some little easter eggs in . What did Phil say ? " I know stuff" . Yes this revolves around Augusta and by extension Ed H . I don't think it's just insolvency that drove this . Look into the curious case of the 750 million golf development just across the river from ANGC . Literally a drive n a 6 iron away . Massively rumoured to be Saudis. So this activates Ed . I love the wine cellar meeting it makes sense . Going back to before LIV season started and before masters Phil was seen at lunch with PC . Lots of rumour ensued and a tour caddy was saying publicly he had heard firstly PC was going to LIV then shortly after that Phil was going to grandfather a team for him and retiring . OK he stayed on tour. Why is this important ? Same player is now on the policy board . Perhaps it was Phil who was the guy they got to call Yasir after the wine cellar. Phil was on radio silence all week . Anyways two little adds to your theory which to me is very logical .
Good post. I'll add though that Cantlay and Xander apparently were waiting for LIV to get the OWGR points nod before accepting any deal, because neither have won a major yet and they need the points to get into majors etc.
@SiLo Mixing and Mastering Rahm also very close. Bobby Brown on Pull hook golf podcast was one saying about PC . Bobby used to be Dustins caddy . If there was any truth in phil grandfathering his team to PC it would make it intresting . Patrick is on the policy board who will give go ahead on this entity . 5 directors who I'm sure are on board and 5 players . They need a players vote . Might just be a coincidence .
@@Kevin-l4 Fair points there. I read that Rory is chairman of player advisory council until 2024, will be interesting to see who replaces him and if they’re pro LIV/PIF. Also on the board are Hoffman, Malnati and Simpson along with Rory and Cantlay….PC & RM are obviously on opposite sides of the LIV debate but I’m not sure about the other 3
@@Kevin-l4 Very interesting. The most important bit of info I have come across. I was wondering how on earth they would get enough player votes after Jay Monahan completely shafted the pros out of a literal billion dollars. It is insane to even think about.
@SiLo Mixing and Mastering obviously this is all pure speculation . Rory I'd imagine was there to push thru TGL . That itself could be used to leverage him to accept . I wouldn't want to be any of the 5 . Unless pots of gold appear for everyone on tour .
B-Team, I rewatched "the kingdoms" vid from 2 months ago and I think the revelation you and DS have had since then was that Augusta knew the velocity of the financial downturn timeline of the PGAT first with Ed H being the ultimate insider mover/shaker. So the kingdom conversations devolved into it's let's make a deal quickly with PIF before that kind of talk gets out (i.e. PGAT b/k).
Thx Steve. Our “Masters Plot” episode was built on our theory that PGAT was going to run out of cash - but we didn’t think it would be so quick. Hats off in a way to Ed Herlihy for taking bold action starting around late Oct 2022 (in our working theory) and recruiting Jimmy Dunne to the PGAT Board. That is our fav part of The Plot so far - that the “meeting before the meeting” was Herlihy and Dunne hatching a plan to save the PGAT by inviting LIV / PIF into the US-Euro golf ecosystem.
Excellent show. It would be nice if this video gets major viewing.
It should be required viewing for anyone in the media who thinks they know how this all went down and what the net effect is. There are too many talking heads who a) have no clue of the ramifications of this deal or b) are purposely carrying the water for the PGAT top make this appear as it's something its not, which is shameful.
Why did they do it? Money money money. Rahm was going to LIV and the end was near for the pga tour. Who made the first move? The PGA tour.
If Rahm is going it will be intresting if Saudis push it thru to double down pressure .
@@Kevin-l4 We don't even know if that offer is still on the table, or if it still has any value to John.
After winning the Masters, surely his price would need to be re-negotiated - at the very least...
@Jeff McKinnon yes it's a big if. Let's say he was to go . It's gamechanger and the deal will need driven thru . Lots of players can be offered equity in LIV. They might be prepared to give up another 25% on each team . That's room for at least another dozen big names . Others can be given cash contracts .
I read the rushed announcement was due to the imminent PR disaster: Jon Rahm was going LIV. The alarm bells went off and they jumped.
Makes a lot of sense . This has been on cards since last year and just needed cards to fall in place . Him winning masters was a massive one . All the twitter stuff last year did have merits and people within Spanish golf were talking about him going as an open secret. Watch out for Hideki too
Rahm should be well compensated. Also other recent major winners including Scheffler, Thomas, Fitzpatrick, Matsuyama, Morikawa, Woodland, Lowry and Spieth. Also Rory, Molinari, Rose and Adam Scott. All except Rahm should get a lesser amount than they would have received if they took the risk and joined LIV. This would keep all major winners since 2017 happy. Current top 10 players should also get some incentive - Cantlay, Schauffele, Homa, Hovland.
more likely the deal was going to be leaked - and they needed to get ahead of that . Rahm very well may have been planning to Jump - It would make sense after US open - but one of these days you people will realize this has always been about money - golf is so secondary what players did or didn't do are meaningless.
@@2Thes22 "if they took the risk" But they didn't. The compensation should be allowance to play LIV events for the generous purses. That should be their incentive. They risked nothing.
Where did you read that?
Let's face it, the needle mover for the tour is injured, mostly retired, living in Jupiter FLA and irreplaceable as a way to monetize TV coverage and generate revenue. Bringing the boys back who went rogue and collected lottery size income from LIV will not move the needle again. It'll be like the lyric from Aerosmith, "Same ol story, same ol song and dance my friends" My unsolicited thought would be to pass a new cart use policy for the PGA (for a certain semi-retired golfer) and maybe considered combing the talent of the ever growing LPGA into PGA events
True.
Inter-league rivalry is needed and maybe adds something material. However, we think that global gambling revenue is the best idea to test.
They should do events with the LPGA that no one watches to boost interest? Makes sense. This isn't a marxist welfare program.
There are many global golf opportunities, that the PGAT in its myopic state failed to see....Monahan's vision was to maim all other tours and make them feeder tours for the US tour....thats good for US fans but 50% of golf fans don't live in America...The DP tour is in serious trouble, due to Monahan and Pelley...The PGAT existed before Tiger (it was great, and so where the other global tourneys) and it will be great after Tiger....
@Axileus LIV is an innovator...and a joy to watch.....
RUclips golf has more viewers than pga tour golf. That's Jay's number one failure, not capturing the young viewers in some way.
I'd argue the plot with EH and JD was hatched at the 2022 Memorial Tournament; Ed Herlihy, Jimmy Dunne and Fred Ridley all played in that Pro/Am, and were all three playing in that pro/am this year as well, probably buttoning up all of the details.
This is the most sober analysis I have seen on this topic. Great job!
They don't need to control the board seats of the PGATour when they have all the board seats of the holding company.
Very interesting analysis. Appreciate the business perspective you bring on this. I imagine all 3 tours will remain, with some potential changes to them. No reason to get rid of LIV. The LIV format/concept is more appealing. It's also got 2 current major holders. Many major winners.
Keep the vids coming darkstar and b team.
Thx Cam. Agree with you that three tours will stay. The problem for a follow up episode is, oddly, the Majors. They are the heart of pro golf but not owned by the pros. So, the mission for Newco is to create 2-6 new “majors” that it owns. The President’s Cup can be rebranded as the Champions Cup and then maybe The Players can be improved. But then greenfield. They need some talented creatives to help including players like Phil and perhaps Gary Player and Trevino (and others).
Is there any possibility of pif acquiring the current majors? Then they would have it all. Or would they want to acquire them?
Maybe there is a similar strategy to create some 'majors' that out compete the current majors. Massive prize grab. Or incorporating teams in to all tours then having a teams major. The masters will not want to become irrelevant. Hard to imagine any events that actually out do the majors though. In terms of significance/meaning in the eyes of players and fans. Agreed it will take some creativity.
@@ThinkingManShow ANY new majors must be outside the US....America is only half of world golf
All three tours can serve a purpose....there must events to play for say 400 tour pros
Five tours out of this will remain. LIV will become the centerpiece and will serve as the NewCo's global team tour. The DP and Asian Tour's will become a single global tour of its own and be the feeder/relegation tour for LIV. The PGA Tour will likely continue on in some form or fashion as is and primarily be the North American Tour. The Korn Ferry Tour will continue to be the feeder/relegation tour for it. Lastly, there's the Champions Tour which no one is talking about in all of this. The players on this tour are impacted by this merger as well, but it's funny how no one is talking about it - either in the media or the players themselves. The biggest unknown in all of this is what becomes of the FedEx Cup? Is FedEx going to maintain its sponorship of the playoffs given the change in ownership? This is yet another facet of the new world golf order no one is talking about. Should they drop their sponsorship does it signal the end to the current end of season playoff series?
I am old like you two, and said the very same thing to my son, when the split happened with top 10 players leaving the PGA tour to play in the new LIV league. Knowing who was behind the LIV golf league, I knew the PGA tour was going to struggle keeping sponsors, without the best players to sell their tournaments on a week to week basis. The golf media, and golf journalists condemning the athletes for taking dirty money, look slackjaw, only to find out this was all going to happen regardless of their uppity moral stance they took. They owe these men an apology for denigrating them, but I wont hold my breath! When the Big Moneymen in this world decide to make a deal, there are no Morals. When guys like Brandel, and the like talk, try not to take them too seriously. SMH!! 🧐🧐🧐
Well said Russ. Cheers.
@@ThinkingManShow Shamblee and Lynch won't stop their Saudi bashing so they must go....
@@1362pc Their days of being part of the professional golf scene are numbered and they know it, which is why they are acting like petulant children and getting their last licks in before they're shone the door.
@@MikeBodo Hi Michael..I guess no surprise you follow these guys also...Thinking men...ha ha...I think this PIf deal is 80% BS....a nothing deal, but the announcement has a purpose for the Tour mafia
Excellent, cerebral presentation. Concise, fact based & intelligently presented. Bravo!
Thx DPG. Keeps us going! support like yours. Much appreciated. We’ll keep at it.
B-Team, side note going forward, the Saudi Oil Minister has said multiple times over the the last decade that their long term target oil price is $80 to meet all the needs of The Kingdom (SA). Recently, you heard him say (when oil was low 70's) it wouldn't be wise to bet on the price of oil trending down. Informative to your future discussions as that price foretells the amount of freedom the PIF has to spend on their more ambitious projects. Lots of internal subsidizing goes on in SA to keep down the various factions inline.
Thx Steve. SA is a fascinating place and history. The British involvement there 100 years ago by itself is a page turner. We’ll keep an eye on it.
I like your content, as an Aussie, just a reminder, world golf does not equal the USA=PGAT, this was PGAT mistake/strength, for 50 years it was the school bully and sucked the life out of global golf, and ensured international stars had to play effectively permanently in the USA for OWGR/Cash (PIF just became a bigger bully), unlike the ATP in tennis which is global. My tip is LIV becomes 10 featured tournaments probably branded ARAMCO, and they will play a high ratio OUS (made for TV), which also gives versatility to lengthen the season/without wearing the players out, i,e. playing in middle east, South Africa, Australia, Singapore allows major events outside the Northern hemisphere summer. This becomes the global part with teams and partial ownership from the big name players, and I agree it is probably 9 teams of 6 (GB&I, Europe, Africa, LATAM, Australasia, Asia and 3 teams from the USA/Canada - you can name the teams now). It will also appeal to non golf and younger fans and critically GROWS the amount of TV content. The PGAT will effectively be left whole, and given its non profit status it really has no ability to be exported. The 10 mega events will be scheduled to not clash with the majors or the 6-10 major PGAT events (Bay Hill, Memorial, Phoenix etc that matter and have TV power). Players could even become a 5th major officially. Players will be able to travel back and forth between the ARAMCO events and rest of PGA tour. In reality the big 25-50 names will play the Aramco, players, 4 majors and 4-6 of the remaining PGAT events and be encouraged to split them between them to keep the events meaningful, meantime the bullshit 2nd tier events in Bermuda/Hawaii and other places just go away. My tip is PIF also expand investment in Asia, Australia, DP etc, again under the global expansion message. That is how you grow the global game, with the USA largely saturated and trended to an older audience.
Thx Craig. Agreed.
We think they keep LIV branding and surely hope they change the team names (please!). We see the primary mission of Newco as:
1. creating a calendar for all tours that works for all tours and the Majors.
1A. creating at least 2 new Majors that Newco owns. A rebranded Presidents Cup (let’s call it Champions Cup with LIV v PGAT) and maybe an improved Players Championship
2. Compelling inter-league play between PGAT and LIV. This could take many forms. Team only? That’s probably the most interesting.
If you’re on Twitter, join us there for more conversation.
@@ThinkingManShow i think it is exciting times. Have subscribed, not on twitter but will follow on. i think we are all close to where it goes
👍
Great summary of the situation guys. But do have to agree that Darkstar was interrupted.
There is an element of offering some tools, eg board seats, to give PGA tour the ability to spin/save face to a certain extent.
Blauvelt - yes. Al Rumayyan can well afford to be generous on the “who takes credit” front. He’s happy, and smart, to let PGAT spin and save face with their players and fans as best they can.
For the average joe out there, the PGA Tour is basically comprised of being a US Tour, first & foremost.
When you here the likes of Brandel & others talk about the game of golf it's basically talking about the game in the US. Yes it's about the largest market in golf but there is more to golf than the US.
I heard Davis Love talking about Rory growing the game as he is now on the PGAT player council. What absolute rubbish. I haven't heard anything, anything from him about growing the game outside of the PGA Tour. If he is growing the game why doesn't he have TGL been played in Korea or Japan each week rather than the US & maybe have Hideki (Asia's biggest star in sport) push the golf narrative in a golf crazy market ??? Seeing golfers playing against a simulator for me, doesn't grow the game for us other than growing the purses of several dozen already highly paid golfers.
LIV Golf comes along & is doing what should have been done 30 years. Sure, they've been paid handsomely to play because they've taken a bigger risk with a start up company so why wouldn't they.
This is what Greg Norman has been wanting for many years & we've wanted for many years. Players like himself who played all over the world for many many years have always seen the game as a global sport & the opportunities that it has to actually grow the game unlike this myopic view from anyone associated with the PGA Tour such as Rory, Brandel, Davis & Jay.
I attended the LIV Golf event in Adelaide & outside of the Masters, it was the best golf tournament I've been to, period.
I hope the LIV players don't go back to the PGA...well particularly if they are still to be fined by the PGAT.
They're happy where they are doing what they are doing plus the ability to play the majors. Great, why go back.
All they have to do is fix up what the world ranking system which is so much biased towards the PGA Tour it's not funny. The better choice would be the TUGR system being a performance based system, far better & more fair.
The golfing community need to address golf on a global scale & this current merger still doesn't address it outside of an umbrella of money from PIF. You still currently have separate entities.
I'm not for any tour. We just want a global sport balanced in a calendar year with everyone enjoying themselves, both player & fan.
The Majors being the pinnacle & the Presidents Cup & Ryder Cups being neutral events & not controlled by any tour.
Then you have LIV, PGAT, DP tours doing what they are doing in any way they see fit but would prefer a system of tournaments under an better "eco-system" that is easy to follow worldwide.
The fact the 90% of players don't want Jay at the helm from the reactions at the meeting at the Canadian Open shows that players will now seek out other opportunities like playing at LIV or even the Asian Tour (thanks to LIV Golf was given a lifeline post Covid as the Asian Tour was in dire straits & I don't see anyone from the PGAT mentioning all the positive things about that) as a means to simply see the world, make a living but be happier in the own pursuits in playing golf.
I like the analogy that Tiger world deflated before it could open, signs of things to come. LIV can be a great expansion of international golf with a US base, beyond DW ability.
I like WGL, World Golf League. WGL USA, WGL Asia, WGL Australia…
Thanks JC. Maybe PIF will rebrand LIV.
NUCO will be sure that the schedules of the tours don't step on themselves as the players can play events they chose, some being mandatory tour events. That opens up the most lucrative purses to all NUCO members. No?
Freedom of movement for players and control of schedul means everything . All money filters back to new entity wether it on PGAT or LIV.
@@Kevin-l4 'Freedom of movement' was what Phil sought. Lots of big winners, but he could be the biggest.
I know a lot of what you two say on this particular subject is debate and conjecture for obvious reasons but very measured and intriguing. I was waiting for this program to happen as I said to people I will wait for TMS to talk about this because I had no clue how this was going to work etc etc. Again very interesting show. Look forward to the next one.
I love you guys. So good getting to the nitty gritty of it all. The mind just boggles at it all
Great show, incredibly informative in connecting the dots.
I must say, Not a word from Tiger.....
TMRW has been outflanked. We would love! to listen in on that meeting between Tiger and Mike McCarley. One would assume they’re thinking hard about how to regroup.
"Grow the Game" was mentioned during 'Brandel's rant just recently, He talked about the PGA sponsorship of the China PGA Tour. Now.....This is an article from Tom Anderson April 2022 titled ‘The PGA’s China Problem’….PGA Tour China is one of several developmental circuits sponsored by The PGA. The PGA Tour appears unfazed by China’s appalling human rights record, which currently includes accusations of brutal persecution of its Uyghur Muslim population. The PGA Tour’s failure to file a 990 form disclosing its financial dealings with Chinese private equity firm Yao Capital As a tax-exempt organization, the PGA Tour is required to disclose such business dealings in China. It seems a clear case of the PGA Tour trying to have it both ways: gaining entry into the lucrative and largely untapped Chinese golf market, while flying under the radar of U.S. regulators and the IRS.
Another great show! I’d love to know what you guys think will happen in terms of players returning to the PGA Tour. Personally, I feel like LIV guys would need to sit out for at least one year, especially if LIV dies. That’d be a good way for the PGAT and the PGAT and DPWT players who stayed away from LIV to save face.
People forget that the US OPEN, the British Open and the Masters are not PGA events and are the top viewed golfing events. Take those events away and you only have one PGA event worth watching and only because TIGER WOODS is limping around the golf course. Riviera. No one watches more than 10 minutes of any other PGA events.
The Players is drifting into oblivion
This could have been good. Correcting "140" all the time was not clever but irritating. Either rehearse or just use darkhorse info and do the report by yourself.
Almost none of these issues were discussed on MSNBC interview
Wooo I remember listening to the show a year ago. We KNEW this was gonna happen.
Thx BeenJ - we remember a show back last summer where Darkstar said “if Jay thinks he has a bigger stack than LIV, he’s crazy.”
The PGAT members must demand that all tour financials are disclosed to members
True.
And we’ll assume that #PhilWasSORight will play out and the players trust in management has ended. In fact, if Jay has to go it will be for that reason primarily. You can’t lose trust with most of the employees and keep your CEO job.
@@ThinkingManShow I think Jay may have done enough ass kissing prior to the announcement of the deal to keep his job regardless what the players think of him.
@@ThinkingManShow They had to give him something for his surrender, or he would have burnt the place to the ground, leaving them a bankrupt PGA, as their prize.
Don't forget, Jay never asked for any of this to happen.
Him being "dirty" has nothing to do with the Saudi's buying up golf.
These are 2 seperate issues, and Christ, himself couldn't have stopped this take-over.
We can't just hang everything onto Jay Monahan...
Can we?
Money and lawsuits. Neither side, especially the PGA, did not want the public to know about the dirty laundry. PIF could care less about dirty laundry, they will do what they have always done, what they want to.
seriously ? You think between the PGA tour and the Chairman of the PIF - And Saudi Aramco - that the PGA tour has things they do not want public - from a deposition ? WOW - I bet the Tour headquarters are at area 51 too.
As a Brit. I have concerns about the future of the European tour. It’s been merged, sold out and downgraded by the present commissioner and now faces a future as a feeder tour. If Monahan is to be crucified then Keith Pelley should be right alongside. My hope is that your commercial regulators will nay say this Saudi “ takeover” and golf will walk itself back from this precipice.
Love it fellas... will you be discussing the players union any time soon?
gentlemen, THANK YOU - ! have been waiting for your exhaustive two cents on this crazy matter. as usual you hit it out of the park. a few asides ...why have so few seemed to grasp the notion that the pga had run out of money ... also viz the saudis, yes their PIF is reportedly valued at approx 670B$, but if the norwegion sovereign fund is valued at 1.4T$, then how many trillions in fact does MBS have available at his finger-tips, this entire affair - that is, owning golf - will have cost them nothing ... also i'm wondering if greg norman doesn't wander around with the clause in his contract that details his payout upon a merger, printed and tucked into his wallet, i wonder what that round number might be, may partly explain why we haven't heard a peep out of him ...
gotta hand it to the saudis, these guys have just begun a very long game, 25 to 50 yrs is my guess. their goal is that, when the oil runs out, they just press a button and the same money flows in from half the world that they intend to own by then. with respect to sports, i see them going after tennis next ...
2030 is looking to unseat or rival the UAE. Golf has definitely impacted my perception of the UAE and Dubai
Nailed it no cash..sponsors are broke..banks are falling...
One thing that must happen is that Pro Golf has a season...maybe Mar-Oct...then the best players can play more during the season and have 4 months break each year.
I'm hearing LIV won't continue next year. Can you find out?
Amanda Staveley was likely the contact who set up the first meeting between Dunne and Yassir.
How does LIV feel about PRIIDE adds for our children paid for by the PGA?
I will continue boycotting all things American sports. If LIV goes that way they will be quickly added to the list.
B-Team, do you think that it has ever crossed Tiger's mind now that if he had sided with PIF, he would have been a lock for running the PGAT within 3-5 years?
Excellent point Steve.
Ya know, he’s smart enough to be thinking that now. He picked the wrong ally. Tiger has no “spreadsheet experience” in business so it likely didn’t occur to him to look at all the angles. For the better, running a tour is not his first, best destiny.
Excellent explanation yet. Makes sense to me. No money no Honey!
- -- the real reason for the merger is the two, Monahan and Dunne, who brokered the deal got massive bonus for making the deal.
Lets put the emotion aside for a minute....Do you really think PIF after investing $1Billion in LIV over past 2 years and the success LIV has had worldwide will let Jay Monahan disband LIV golf in 2024 ??. Come on !!.
PGAT USA, DP Tour Europe and LIV World ....3 Tours being fully funded by PIF where players will be able to play wherever they choose without harassment, fines and bans. PIF has total control in the destiny of world golf.
Thx Tony. True.
We think PGAT will get rounds of capital with strings attached (traunches) as payment for LIV getting equal access to Majors and inter-league play, and some kind of access to The Players and a rebranded Presidents Cup (let’s call it the Champions Cup). PGAT will have nothing to say about LIV strategically. Newco’s biggest job operationally will be to create a calendar of events for all tours that works for all tours and the Majors - not easy! We need a whole show on that topic.
Biggest single winner in this deal is the Presidents Cup (rebranded Champions Cup). PIF is probably asking the PGAT to contribute that asset to Newco so Newco can own a Major. PIF will want to build the Champions Cup into a huge thing every two years or maybe every year. Newco and pro golf needs to own at least 2 new Majors. The great oddity of pro golf is it doesn’t own the 4 most important tournaments and biggest money makers; or the Ryder Cup.
What agreements? Zero funding committed...PIF allowing Monahan and his cronies full management rights is insane.....
Thx Paul as always. PIF has total control. Each new traunch of capital is tied to performance and strategic metrics. If Newco management misses, next cash infusion is withheld.
@@ThinkingManShow You guys are good....thanks!
Rory is completely clueless based on his commentsat the Canadian Open. Someone needs to sit him down and offer a lecture on how things are really going to work.
Great show guys and good insight into the current event
I would have like you to discuss why Jay , Rory and the PGA in general seem to be reading from a different script. Do you think it's all show to try and appear in control or do they really believe that they are in control.
Most likely - the PGAT leadership is continuing to do what it has been doing for years per Phil: crap on the players. In this case, they are emphasizing board seats and heading operations of “Newco”. It’s a lie of omission by not saying they are out of cash and PIF now controls overall strategy by means of conditional infusions of capital. If PGAT leadership does not do what PIF wants, no more money is contributed.
@@ThinkingManShow In addition, the new structure is setup where the Saudi PIF has first right of refusal on any initiatives Jay, the board and players wish to implement. In the world of politics its called Veto Power. This makes them the ultimate arbiters in the direction the Newco and all its subsidiaries, i.e. the professional golf tours, go in.
The first right of refusal is, we think, with respect to additional investors to “Newco”. So that’s an anti-dilution provision but we’ll have to see how the actual deal comes together. There’s a very long way to go it seems before an actual legally binding agreement is reached. Many many many details to be worked.
@@ThinkingManShow If the Saudi PIF is the financing arm behind the for profit company, they're not just going to let Jay and the board make major structural decisions autonomously without their input and or approval . Second, if the PGAT is burning through cash at the rate that's being portrayed, they're not in a position to do a lot of heavy-handed negotiating or demand much. They're bargaining from a position of weakness, not strength, which is never a good thing. With how sudden and rushed this appears to be on the surface, if I read between the lines correctly the PGAT needs to get a deal done and soon in order to get a fresh infusion of operating cash.
Absolutely everybody and I mean everybody needs to stop calling this a merger between the PGA and LIV golf tours. What it actually is the PIF as an investor buying an exclusive stake in the PGA tour. Whether it becomes an actual controlling stake over time remains yet to be seen? Monahan has been very careful to say in every interview that the PGA will keep complete control. Really?
Thx DR54 - Rumayyan agreed (given the press release) to allow the PGAT to spin the deal to save face with players and fans. That’s in the PIF’s interest anyway. And Rumayyan can afford to be generous. If PIF’s objective is faster “access” to global investments, then a healthy PGAT in rivalry with LIV (and LIV Europe United to replace DP) is best case.
Best TMS show ever!
Rotten remote audio and all. I agree.
The sole purpose of NUCO, LLC is to allow for and protect PIF investment. PIF certainly isn't going to donate to Jay's 501.
My guess; Jay isn't far from the door.
Could be Kingsley. General rule is no fire-ings for six months; then start bringing in your own people.
How did R&A interface with the Ed and Jimmy conversations?
Russ - that will likely remain a secret no matter what spin/info becomes public. Our theory is Mr Herlihy discussed the plan with R&A and USGA in a very private way to make sure the idea was good with them. We like thinking they did it at The Masters as the top people were all there anyway. They may all very well be members of Augusta in fact.
RUclips golf has more viewers than the pga tour. Young golfers watching guys shoot 90 has more viewership than the "best golf on the planet" let that sink in. Jay's failure to capture that demographic opened the door for all of this to happen. Ricky Fowlers orange outfits missed too many cuts and fat perez is a bigger golf celebrity than half the guys playing on tour.
lol. You are interrupting DS. U can always add something when he is done talking.
But I would do the same things.
Very limited time to get the story out Oahu. DS’s brain skips over as many details as we let him get away with!
Y’all called it almost dead on. I did think it would last until they tried their new fall season and let the majors wrap up.
Thx Andrew - that’s the tell. Why move so fast? Lightning fast. Running out of cash is fear and pain defined. Getting out of pain becomes the only mission. Re. Lawsuits: if the PGAT was printing money, it would think it could handle the lawsuits - at least for a good while longer. But they chose an early, honorable surrender so they could still negotiate the withdrawal and not be wiped out entirely. Mr Herlihy and Dunne are smart, savvy players. Die hard PGAT supporters owe those two gentlemen a great deal.
Back in the late seventies the sport of cricket (Americans can google it) was divided by a breakaway league led by billionaire Kerry Packer, called World Series Cricket, which paid players 20 times more than they were being paid...it lasted a few years before the establishment gave in, and the sport unified with all the great improvements WSC made....now cricket is very innovative and full of money..most players now are multi-millionaires, and its the 2nd most watched sport in the world....Many things the same with LIV v PGAT, except after Packer got the TV rights for cricket, he walked away.
You guys must talk about TMRW golf....and where that fits in
Agreed Paul. TMRW has an additional challenge. And unlike LIV teams, the players don’t own the teams. Maybe they will rework their model. If so, once again PhilWasSORight.
@@ThinkingManShow The LIV teams model is smart, but needs global geographic teams...the lesser players can go back to the other tours and the teams get bolstered with better players...need a Japan team and Korean team added...Greg has had to work with what players he got
Spot on Paul. LIV Japan and LIV Korea would be big additions. At least a LIV Asia United or some combo of these.
Join us on twitter for more conversation.
Where does Greg Norman end up in all this? Did he play his role? Will you do a show about Greg Norman and his role in all this?
Robert! Thx as always. Yes, a show about Greg’s role to date and future is needed. LIV is the global brand PIF has already sunk a bunch of money into and a younger audience is the most important component of pro golf moving forward and an inter-league rivalry can help build audience and the PGAT doesn’t have the calendar or resources to build audience outside the US - so, somebody with talent needs to run LIV going forward. Why not Greg?
the control issue is the key. with yasir as chairman
Traunches / rounds of capital contributions tied directly to meeting performance and strategic metrics - as PIF directs - is total control for the PIF.
If you think back on Shells Wonderful World of golf you will see that oil has been paying for our golf entertainment for a long time.
“Plot to save global golf” is a ridiculous phrase. Pro golf is a small part of “global golf” that’s why the Saudis can buy it up.
NewCo is who the PIF will distribute funds to based on financial performance metrics.
True. All kinds of metrics and milestones including financial.
in reality, it was not a merger it was a sale of the PGA to the Saudis. LIV is on the verge of folding because of massive losses in everyone of LIV's tournament and LIV cannot recruit anymore high profile golfers to join. LIV can never compete with the PGA and so to save LIV the Saudis bought the PGA and call it a 'merger.
Rahm should be well compensated. Also other recent major winners including Scheffler, Thomas, Fitzpatrick, Matsuyama, Morikawa, Woodland, Lowry and Spieth. Also Rory, Molinari, Rose and Adam Scott. All except Rahm should get a lesser amount than they would have received if they took the risk and joined LIV. This would keep all major winners since 2017 happy. Current top 10 players should also get some incentive - Cantlay, Schauffele, Homa, Hovland.
he is already
They can negotiate the compensation figures with LIV Golf
Rory is pissed because his simulator golf league with Tiger may be doomed
TMRW is not helped by this proposed deal. They may navigate around it but it is an obstacle.
Monahan should be fired for lack of disclosure to the MEMBERS....no transparency
Brandel will definitely not apologize
Your videos are amazing
Thx XOteddy. Appreciated! Connect with us on Twitter at ThinkingManShow
What about Greg Norman. He was the face, voice and muscle of LIV. Greg has earned a seat at the table or we'll be pissed.
Greg will still run LIV
I believe Phil Greg and many more on LIV new this was long term goal . Just because they weren't in the room doesn't mean they didn't know .
Just like Rory said LIV wasn’t a part of this. The PIF took control of DP and pga tour
@@Kevin-l4 I remember Greg Norman saying several times last year that LIV golf is designed to work alongside the PGA Tour, which is reflected in this year's LIV schedule where they have tournaments on the weeks where the PGAT has their 'lesser' events. The combination of the 2 has been great for objective golf fans who can watch both LIV and the PGAT events without being brainwashed by the anti-LIV BS that has now been exposed as hypocritical nonsense.
@@Surfsaus actually Jay Monahan is going to run LIV - or he can disband it . Norman will be paid to go away
How will this affect the Ryder Cup?
Tony - good question. Ryder Cup owned by PGA of America not a winner in this deal. They could sell part of it to Newco and share rather than compete with a sure-to-be-coming LIV v PGA Tour “Champions Cup” (to replace Presidents Cup). We would advise sell a stake to Newco with some provisions regarding maintenance of history and prominence.
how weird noone is talking about Dubai Ports owning the European tour. this PIF takeover has a smaller scale precedent
Edward - good point.
I’m not even American guys but as an Irish man we’ve had plenty of tragedy’s and if someone like Monaghan had invoked the names of those lost ( god rest them ) and then gone back on it. Let’s just say he would need a decent security team
I mean family members protested Liv events encouraged by his words.
This isn’t golf, it’s not the game I grew playing
Juve - a thoughtful point. Interesting the two guys pushing this deal are a Dunne and a Herlihy; and for their operator a Monahan.
@@ThinkingManShow its pretty scary that Irish americans are all over this deal. I have to say im not proud but it is what it is.
I just want our national open to get more respect
have you ever played golf over here ?
Agreed Irish Open! We have not played Ireland yet and that is sad. It is a special place, history and people. Ironic that LIV and the Saudis probably see that too and will elevate golf there; and not the DP or PGAT.
@@ThinkingManShow well fyi the Irish open get seriously large crowds. Some of the best support out there in the European tour and always has.
Also the golf digest no. 1 course in the word is of course in Ireland. Our open struggles primarily because idiots like Rory don’t play it.
I mean there is no excuse for not playing your national open imo. Hand in your passport territory
We’ve said there outta be a LIV Ireland team. How bout Paddy H as captain? Along that line, we’d love to see Lee Trevino captain a LIV team. Non-playing captains could be better all around. Have to think on that.
How many times have either of you visited Saudi Arabia? You can't understand who you're dealing with if you haven't been there.
THere are unhinged arabic muslims everywhere to at least give you clue.
What's the scoop with Rory McIlroy? He doesn't sound too happy.
Great post, it captivated me thanks
Thx Mark. Much appreciated.
I heard on some podcast said it was Jimmy Dunne that made contact.
Hey guys, get the heading on the podcast right..the PGA did NOT merge with (- - - ). If you study Jimmy Dunne's statements, a new entity has been formed between the PGA and PIF...and the PGA has the right to dismantle (- - - ) should it wish to do so. Essentially ( - - ) has been losing money and PIF wants to realign itself with the PGA and put the Commissionaer in charge of ANY basis on which ( - ) players will be re-admitted into the Tour....maybe if they agree to pay their way back in. No way is ( - - ) winning the fight against the PGA.
yeah, the LIv teams is a winner, and must be geographic:
-Japan
-Korea
-Asia
-Australia
-Sth Africa
-Britain
-Europe
-Spain
-Sth America
-5 x US teams
total 14 teams
LIV Florida. LIV California, LIV Carolina etc. Take the primary golf American States as needed.
Will the players go to say Japan if live and pga don't get on.
Sound was terrible on this episode and two people talking over each other to tell a story is rough to listen too
The only thing you guys got wrong from the Masters....post 2 months ago was the involvement of the top PGA players. That fact to me is the most crucial part of the LIV hostile takeover. I love LIV, and everything about it. But when I heard Jimmy Dunne claimed that the PGA was in such a great financial position to negotiate w/Al Rumayyan's PIF kitty was laughable😀. Can u discuss some of the lies these hypocrites are spewing out to the media platforms. Thanks for all the great info!
I mean that’s just normal corporate speak you’d expect to hear. You always present these deals as positives and from positions of strength or opportunity to the public in any M&A transaction. That’s just par for the course for any deal. But even more so it would be idiotic to say something about we entered the deal because we had to or we’d run out of cash simply from a PR sense alone that would exacerbate rhetoric of PIF purchasing golf and so on. But even more so you wouldn’t say something like that before a deal is officially closed. Until the deal closes both entities have to continue operating as normal and allow the merger process to work itself out in the background. Until the deal is done you have to operate as if the deal isn’t going to happen just in case it doesn’t go through, even more so with one like this that has so many hurdles in the path to it closing. There is a lot of risk with the antitrust stuff nuking this thing. So the idea that you’d come forward and basically say you were tanked without the deal before it’s done would be absurd because if it doesn’t go through how do you continue operating moving forward if all of your partners have now been told you can’t survive? You can’t which is why you speak on the deal like he did as anybody would.