Heartbreaking to witness two intelligent, well intentioned and well informed (although not in agreement to all the “facts”) individuals with obvious goodwill spending close to 2 hours and at the end coming to nothing which moved the goalposts towards a meaningful proposal for resolution of this black hole of misery for all residents of this part of the world. Maybe you really can’t get there from here 😢
Well said. I was thinking the same when the conversation ended. From when they started to when they ended, nothing changed. It speaks volumes to what this whole mess is all about.
There are a few other hidden fundamental differences that separate Muslims from everyone else. (1) the Koran allows Muslims to justify any behavior or act of violence they carry out, provided they can spin it as defending Islam against a picture, and image, something someone said, or even implied, if they consider it to be offensive by any standard of the imagination. (2)Another aspect of Islam is you’re not allowed to question any of its many contradictions. (3) That means Islam, by its very nature, is totalitarian. (4) As a result, negotiation is not acceptable as a means of resolving disputes. Only war and violence is respected in Islam. (5) Islam/Muhammed/Allah are all treated as being one and the same; a perceived slight against one is a slight against all three. (6) One of Islam’s (Koran) main themes is how to deal with very low self esteem, and how to restore honor. Low self esteem emanates from the Jews, who Islam refers to as “filthy dogs” (English translation of the Arabic), a people who no other country wants, keep winning wars against all odds. (7) Rather than entertaining the possibility that Islam isn’t the world’s first choice of religions, and that maybe Allah isn’t greater than all other gods, it acts under the premise that its only a matter of time until Islam reasserts its power and regains its lost prestige, primarily in the form of worldwide caliphates. (The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said exactly the same thing, when Hitler was stopped by the Red Army at the Iraq) Iran? border). (8) Knowing that the last Caliphate was still in existence less than 100 years ago, means that radical Muslims don’t think it’s impossible to resurrect it. (9) That Islam considers itself to be under an existential threat justifies using violence against any perceived threat. It feels it constantly needs to restore its honor, and to prove that its god is greater than all other gods. (10) In the event that a Muslim must enter into negotiations, there is a provision in Islam that allows a Muslim to (lie) make a deal with the enemy, if it will be used to catch the other side off guard (you kipper war, and others). (11) In other words, any deal you make with Muslims is not a deal at all. Consider Arafat at the Oslo Accords, when he leaves with a map detailing future borders of a Palestinian state, and then out of nowhere, launches the 2nd intifada in the year 2000, lasting 10 years. Prematurely awarding Arafat a Nobel prize for Peace is a fantastic boost to the morale of an organization that represents a people who seek to destroy Israel. (12) To a people who lie constantly, and who are well known for never taking responsibility for their actions, this couldn’t be a worse choice to make. These Arabs are an ethnic group who repeatedly launch wars of annihilation against other Muslims, Blacks, etc., and especially against Jews, who they openly hate and wish to eradicate from the face of the earth. This award only serves to diminish the relevance of Nobel’s prize for peace. (13) One of the many reasons why there’s no peace, is that the USA doesn’t use social anthropologists to help it understand the political and social nuances of each country in the region, and so they use Western strategies to interact with a culture foreign to them. (14) What’s more, they entered into a treaty with a man who is a con artist from Egypt, instead of insisting on a bona fide Arab from the former British mandated Palestine. (15) That Biden is trying to delegitimize Israel’s democratically elected govt tells me the USA doesn’t want peace in the region, just like the other Arab countries don’t. Israel seems to be growing up and ready to leave home, and its parents don’t like the idea, so the parents are not allowing them to use their car and they’re withholding their weekly allowance. Unfortunately, the parents are also somewhat dependent on their children for their defensive needs.
Russ equivocates way too much, it's simple, the Israelis despite being the more powerful party are willing to give up a lot to compromise. The Palestinians are unwilling to deal with a Jewish presence in any part of the land. I have sympathy with people on both sides and the different narratives, but in a debate, Russ was not an effective advocate for Israel.
LOL😂! 20% of Israeli residents are Arabs! You don’t see them blowing up things or killing Jews. Pretty much accepting the presence of Jews so long they are not harmed. But Palestinians live under martial laws. Of course they are fed up. How about ending the military occupation?
I appreciate how civil this discussion is. Let me just say that your dominant argument about justifying Palestinian hatred of Israel because of their experiences totally negates the Israeli experience. Why is it that no one makes the argument that the atrocities of 10/7 (and the prior decades of Palestinian terror) would cause a new generation of Israelis who are born and bred to hate and kill Palestinians? Because that is not how Israel functions. ALL Israel wants is peace. If they have to fight for that, they will do what needs to be done. But their next generation will not grow up with bloodthirst and a lust for violence and revenge. Why all the double standards?
Everyone's whole perspective on this matter hinges on one question: Do YOU believe that the Palestinians just want justice, and if you correct all their grievances they will leave the Jews alone, or do you believe they just want to kill Jews because they're Muslim fundamentalists and it doesn't matter what you give them? Everything else flows from how you answer that question. Answer it carefully. Study it, really study all the indications and the historical examples, because there are plenty of both.
You forgot the third option - it can be a land dispute, but palestinians want all the land and do not want to trade, so there is no place for jews. Israel has a record of trading land for peace (egypt, gaza), but palestinians are always choose to fight (and loose).
Well put. For those who are lucid, it is the latter question. Historically (religion) - Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Hajj Amin al-Husseini), a pro-Nazi supporter and collaborator, who birthed the "Palestinian movement". His protégés - Yasser Arafat in Gaza and Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) in Judea/Samaria. Historically (political) 5 wars, 2 Intifadas, etc, rejection of peace deals - Khartoum Resolution - 3 "No" in 1967, after the Six-Day War, 2-state "solution" even with 97% offered by Ehud Barak - rejected by Abbas, disengagement from Gaza (2005), October 7, 2023.
The only answer to this question is that it is erroneous to refer to an ethnic or religious group constituted of millions of people spread all over the planet as a single homogenous entity like your question does when you refer to “the Palestinians” and when you refer to “the Jews”. That point may sound pedantic to you but it is actually crucial when discussing such a complex issue.
It is absolutely true, so much evidence to support it, Palestinians just want Jews gone. That’s it. The whole reason for their existence is to eradicate the Jewish state. Never mind Jews make up .2% of the world’s population. About 16 million, while the Muslim population is about 2 billion 25% of of the worlds population. I’m out. RUclips is threatening to ban me because of my pro-Israel comments.
Ask yourself if somewhere in this world there are two Palestinians who are sitting down to have a rational discussion about whether or not what the Palestinian Arabs have done over the past 100 years vis-a-vis the Israelis has been warranted or not, ethical or not, justified or not. Where are you going to find a discussion from the Palestinian side of things that does this kind of soul-searching or objective rationalization of acts? I'm going to say you're not going to find such a discussion. There is a complete lack of objectivity on the Palestinian side. There is a complete lack of soul-searching, or criticism, or self-reflection. There is a complete lack of a willingness to assume any blame whatsoever for anything that has happened in this conflict on the Palestinian side.
Agreed. Unfortunately, it really is a case of two sides fundamentally different - the Jews who were always in the Levant, including Jerusalem, over the thousands of years of their history, have always been the naturally more conservative...and for the most part lived peacefully (dhimmi status aside) in the Muslim world. While the Jews of Europe and Spain were largely marginalised, they nevertheless absorbed elements of their new surroundings (modernity, technology, political ideology etc.) Thus these Jews were fundamental in the creation of the new state of Israel. The whole new creation of the new Israel brought with it huge costs and tragedies : getting all Israelis to learn Hebrew, accommodating the more "backward" Yemeni Jews, etc. It is only now, after 100 years, that we have a modern Israel with a "Mizrahi flavour" and an acceptance of themselves as people of the Middle East. The Jews historically have never been a large, war-like people...they never wanted to be Mongols or Romans. They were destroyed by the Romans, one might say, because they were closer ! And of the two peoples, Mongols and Jews, which one has contributed more to human civilisation ? I submit that even if the Romans had not destroyed the Temple and dispersed the Jews, they would have survived as a small people in their homeland, and survived even the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. Today, it is 1-2% of the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide who have been awarded the Nobel prize. Of the 15 million Jews worldwide, 25% are Nobel prize winners.
There are a few other hidden fundamental differences that separate Muslims from everyone else. (1) the Koran allows Muslims to justify any behavior or act of violence they carry out, provided they can spin it as defending Islam against a picture, and image, something someone said, or even implied, if they consider it to be offensive by any standard of the imagination. (2)Another aspect of Islam is you’re not allowed to question any of its many contradictions. (3) That means Islam, by its very nature, is totalitarian. (4) As a result, negotiation is not acceptable as a means of resolving disputes. Only war and violence is respected in Islam. (5) Islam/Muhammed/Allah are all treated as being one and the same; a perceived slight against one is a slight against all three. (6) One of Islam’s (Koran) main themes is how to deal with very low self esteem, and how to restore honor. Low self esteem emanates from the Jews, who Islam refers to as “filthy dogs” (English translation of the Arabic), a people who no other country wants, keep winning wars against all odds. (7) Rather than entertaining the possibility that Islam isn’t the world’s first choice of religions, and that maybe Allah isn’t greater than all other gods, it acts under the premise that its only a matter of time until Islam reasserts its power and regains its lost prestige, primarily in the form of worldwide caliphates. (The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said exactly the same thing, when Hitler was stopped by the Red Army at the Iraq) Iran? border). (8) Knowing that the last Caliphate was still in existence less than 100 years ago, means that radical Muslims don’t think it’s impossible to resurrect it. (9) That Islam considers itself to be under an existential threat justifies using violence against any perceived threat. It feels it constantly needs to restore its honor, and to prove that its god is greater than all other gods. (10) In the event that a Muslim must enter into negotiations, there is a provision in Islam that allows a Muslim to (lie) make a deal with the enemy, if it will be used to catch the other side off guard (you kipper war, and others). (11) In other words, any deal you make with Muslims is not a deal at all. Consider Arafat at the Oslo Accords, when he leaves with a map detailing future borders of a Palestinian state, and then out of nowhere, launches the 2nd intifada in the year 2000, lasting 10 years. Prematurely awarding Arafat a Nobel prize for Peace is a fantastic boost to the morale of an organization that represents a people who seek to destroy Israel. (12) To a people who lie constantly, and who are well known for never taking responsibility for their actions, this couldn’t be a worse choice to make. These Arabs are an ethnic group who repeatedly launch wars of annihilation against other Muslims, Blacks, etc., and especially against Jews, who they openly hate and wish to eradicate from the face of the earth. This award only serves to diminish the relevance of Nobel’s prize for peace. (13) One of the many reasons why there’s no peace, is that the USA doesn’t use social anthropologists to help it understand the political and social nuances of each country in the region, and so they use Western strategies to interact with a culture foreign to them. (14) What’s more, they entered into a treaty with a man who is a con artist from Egypt, instead of insisting on a bona fide Arab from the former British mandated Palestine. (15) That Biden is trying to delegitimize Israel’s democratically elected govt tells me the USA doesn’t want peace in the region, just like the other Arab countries don’t. Israel seems to be growing up and ready to leave home, and its parents don’t like the idea, so the parents are not allowing them to use their car and they’re withholding their weekly allowance. Unfortunately, the parents are also somewhat dependent on their children for their defensive needs.
No, there are Arabinians who self-examine. But very, very few few. PLO/Fatah trained and enabled the Islamic Republic revolution and everything flows from the Submission plan of that oppressive, genocidal (even, self-genocidal) Jihadists.😢
As soon as I hear someone say they're in favor of a "two state solution", then I'm clicking off this video and definitely not hitting the LIKE or SUBSCRIBE buttons!
@@jameslevitt7313google polls of gaza residents, they all show that the only one state solution that they want seems to be the one with no Jews in it. This is a religious proxy war with Iran on the other side of Israel.
There is one factor that has driven this conflict more than any other. And that factor is that the Islamic countries of the Middle East cannot abide to have another ethnic or religious community be sovereign within the Middle Eastern territory. It is their belief that any other ethnic group or religious group must be subject to Islam. They cannot be anything other than second or third class citizens. They must answer to the laws of Islam. The Palestinian Arabs in the surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel first in 1948 because they could not abide having a Jewish state in their midst it was not subject to Islam. And every attack since then has been motivated by that exact same philosophy. It has little or nothing to do with occupying forces, or settlers, or open-air prisons in Gaza, or any of that. All of those conditions have flowed from the initial problem that the Islamists have with Jews living in Arab lands. The argument that the one speaker is making that the attacks on Gaza now are going to create more radical elements that are going to attack Israel in the future is irrelevant. Why? Because the Islamists in the Middle East already hated and wanted to destroy Israel, and nothing that Israel can do will change that or ameliorate that or make that go away or stop..
Wright is seriously delusional in his view of the Palestinians. He actually thinks that they’re a friendly, democratic, tolerant, peace-loving people. When all evidence is to the contrary…
You are talking BS because of a lack of knowledge of history or just pure lies, Jews and Muslims have lived together for 100s of years in fact Muslims protected the Jews from the Christians. fact Muslims believe in all Jewish prophets including Jesus, do you think Muslims hate those prophets because they were Jews? No one can call himself a Muslim if he does, There is no compulsion in religion this is in the Quran if you care to find out, There was no Israel before 1948 the UN and the British gave part of Palestine to the Zionists that part has grown because the Zionists want it all, greed runs in their blood, Does any Arab or Muslim can deny that Jesus was born in Palestine? the answer is NO so for this reason for Jews to live in that land is not a problem, the problem is that those who were not from that area went there from another part of the world and claimed the land was theirs, ask the Romans if they can claim all the eria they used to occupy is theirs because their incesters used to live there, Palestinians don't hate Jews and not all Palestinians are Muslims they hate occupation they may hate the Zionists which the majority are atheists
The Israeli civilian casualties from the thousands of rockets launched into Israel from Gaza since 7/10 should have been over 40,000. Thankfully these casualties were prevented by the billions invested by Israel in shelters and the iron dome Missile Defence System. That is how one should look at the facile "proportionality" issue.
Also, assuming that the majority of deaths in Gaza have been due to air launched bombs, and the fact that approximately 20-30% of Hamas' own rockets have landed in the Palestinian's territory, then that means that as much as 20-30% of the civilian deaths in Gaza reported by the Palestinian Health Authority are attributable to Hamas.
You only believe the stories that fit the narrative you have been brainwashed to believe. Unfortunately both comments are neither absurd nor untrue. The rocket that fell on the el shifa hospital was fired from close by in Gaza by a terrorist group, but was attributed to Israel. That was ultimately acknowledged as true also.@michellenorris8471
It is interesting that Mr. Wright is quite understanding of Putin's fear of a hypothetical potential aggression on the borders of his vast country. Where is such understanding in case of a tiny country experiencing a real brutal aggression by an implacable and determined foe? It seems inconsistent until you notice that he is consistently on the side opposite of the US. Could Mr. Wright be wrong at least half of the time?
Russ Roberts also said nothing to counter the slander/blood libel of Wright that Israeli babies were not decapitated or burned alive (in a microwave) which is 100% true and fully documented. Russ Roberts was pathetic in his feeble responses to Wrights rants and that is because Roberts is yet another Jew desperate to be seen as liberal and "enlightened".
Around the 1 hr mark Russ talks about the Israeli communities in Gaza… he says they weren’t able to live normal lives so israel destroyed them and forced them to leave. This really says it all. Those Israelis weren’t looking for “normal” lives. Plenty of Palestinians aren’t looking for “normal” lives. The western mentality is that everyone just wants material comfort and basic freedoms. This flawed outlook and the solutions it generates have kept israel/Palestine in conflict for a hundred years. Gazans proved in October 7th and over the last 18 years that they’re not interested in “normal”. They want Jerusalem, they want Al Aqsa, they want to show that Allah is the greatest. And there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis that want to fight for the land of israel and rebuild authentic Hebrew civilization. This conflict can’t be understood or solved through the western material lens.
And the al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem has No importance to Islam. The al Aqsa mosque was not named or built until 70 years after Muhammad's death. There were no Muslims in Jerusalem until after Muhammad's death, why would there be a mosque in Jerusalem when not one Muslim lived there yet? Umar, the Caliph that arrived in Jerusalem (after Muhammad's death) found a garbage dump of the Temple Mount, he had to clean and clear this in order to build a small wooden prayer shack to pray because there was no mosque there. The Real al Aqsa mosque is in Ji'rrana, Saudi Arabia near Taif. In Arabic writings, Muhammad had prayed in the al Aqsa mosque in Ji'rrana, Saudi Arabia.
@@glennwatson3313 Except Nowhere in the verse is Jerusalem mentioned, again the al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem was not named or built until 70 years after Muhammad's death by the Umayyads.
@@shainazion4073 I'm sure you are correct. My memory of the Koran is from study done decades ago. I seem to remember some sort of mystical journey by Mohammed to the Holy Land. I will look it up.
I think 1948 is too late to begin any discussion about "who started it". That being said, I do appreciate the emphasis on "moving forward" vs. "who cast the first stone"
It's strange to me that Russ Roberts, a libertarian, is so supportive of an ethnocracy, libertarianism is more in favor of universalism while an ethnically and sectarian-based nationalism. Israel has never had a non-Ashkenazi Prime Minister, it would be like if the US never had a Catholic or non-English descendent of the Mayflower president.
There is no resolution to this conflict. The only (slight) hope is that Enlightenment values (Voltaire and Hume rather than Rousseau) will begin to seep into the Arab societies with the spread of access to the internet. Don’t hold your breath!
Not really. Historians do it all the time. When you've written the research there is no reason not to use it. Better to use what you know is right than cite others just for the sake of doing so.
There are many elephants in the room but the two simplest one are these: 1 - Arabs lost, and are now completely abandoned even by the overlords who've traditionally supported them. So much so that they've had to get support from Shia Iran (unthinkable a generation ago, for THEM). They have lost and except for the Westerners who force Israel into (note:) ceasefires (note:) and NOT PEACE - always a ceasefire... the losing party would've learned their lesson by now. Which brings us to the second elephant in the room: 2 - there will always be elements who don't accept defeat and worse, take a militant approach to resistance. We have countless times in history defeated those elements, most recently in Mosul or more illustratively Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. In all those cases how did we do it? We did it by bringing such horrible death and destruction... that by the time the population BEGGED to surrender, there wasn't a single person who thought (or was able to garner any support by the population) that armed resistance (ie against civilian populations, aka terrorism) is a good idea. All victors throughout history have done this. Until it comes to Israel, which we repeatedly prevent from doing so. The death toll in Gaza shouldn't be 50k - it should be 500+k - not because we hate Arabs but because after 80 years they refuse to learn they've lost and worse, enabled by Western supporters are signaled to think that even after an Oct 7th, nothing that bad will really happen to them. Please address the elephants in the room. It is time, first and foremost for Gazans' sake
Porportionality is actually a millitary legal term not meaning what people think. So when talking about war and right and wrong, war crimes one would think thats what is ment. But its not mostly.
It's hard to understand how an hour and 46 minutes was spent talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict and none of the most important aspects were discussed: No discussion of the imminent starvation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians, war crimes ongoing in Gaza, right to return for Gazan refugees, nor incitement of [G word] by Israeli politicians in power and military members.
None of this is "important". The Gazans are getting hundreds of trucks daily with food, water, medicine and fuel. Hamas is stealing about 60% of the trucks.
A few basic truths that unfortunately is lost on both participants. The Peace agreement between Israel and Jordan, The Peace Agreement with Egypt and Israel, the 1922 Mandate as ratified all conspire to prove that Israel cannot illegally settle in its own land nor can it "occupy" it.
Russ, polite to a fault, as always, so not that lively :) Having heard a couple of stomach-churning interviews that Mr. Wright had with other guests, where he seemed in broad agreement with, or even advancing ideas wholly stupid or even malicious (such as giving all Arabs from Gaza and Judea & Samaria the right to vote in Israel, so they can have a Hamas government in control of the IDF, and the 7th of October every day), I think he was deserving of much more liveliness...
Arabs?judea and samaria?hamas control IDF? For starters Arabs is an ethnicity not a nationality. Those you call Arabs call themselves Palestinians(beats me why you find it difficult identifying them as the expect, i hope it's not to dehumanise them) secondly conflating hamas with Palestinians is nonsensical and illogical. Israel states hamas as about 30,000 Palestinians are over 5 million. The PA in the west bank work with Israel. My question what's your solution to the Palestinian question? If it's 2 states how do you envision their state will be and encompass?
I don’t care if WB Arabs all voted for the Green Party, Israeli sovereignty over the heartland of israel aka Palestine is not up for discussion. Arabs of the WB should have 3 choices, the choices Joshua ben Nun offered: accept Israel & live in peace, leave, or war. Those that want real peace can have their own semi-autonomous self gov whether they want that to look like western liberal democracy (doubtful) or clan rule (like the gulf states) or a strong man (like the rest of the Arab world) or a theocracy or whatever. Israel needs to stop talking about democracy, which it is not as its high court has constantly proven, and instead talk about the unique Jewish ways that Jewish tradition has thought about peace, partnership, and living with others in the land of israel.
@@LOPEKJJJ It is an extreme position to claim there can be no discussion of a sovereign Palestinian West Bank. Why do you see this as a movement towards peace?
@@DrumsBah it’s a fair question. “Peace” without justice is not peace. The two state solution has been pushed down on Israelis and Palestinians for 100 years now and it’s only created more violence and destruction. Sovereignty over the land of israel, especially the heartland ie. Jerusalem and the West Bank is a non-starter for enough Israelis that you’ll never get to “peace” if that’s the goal. Jewish identity has been innately tied to Jerusalem and the WB for thousands of years and losing this land after reclaiming sovereignty over it would reopen the historic injustice against the Jewish people that caused them to lose this land originally. And enough Palestinians similarly don’t want to see Palestine cut up that they are willing to fight and die. Real peace can only come from a starting point where the people on the ground and their sense of justice and their aspirations are respected. Drawing lines on a map might work for Europeans but it doesn’t play in Israel/Palestine.
@@Klopp2543 I was as precise as possible. "Palestine" is a historical term for a larger territory including a varied population, and the name itself was given by the Romans, seems to be based on "Philistines", one of the populations of Greek origins who lived there. I don't think it precisely identifies the Arabs living in Gaza or Judea and Samaria, many of which are of Egyptian, Jordanian etc. origin and not "Palestinian" in any historical sense. Calling all these Arabs "Palestinians" is a recent invention and a language trick used by the PLO to suggest they are the "true" natives of the old region of Palestine, and thus the owners of the land of Israel, hence the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" incantation. It's only "free" in English by the way, because it sounds good and gives useful idiots in the West the illusion of them wanting to establish some type of liberal democracy, which is far from the case. They mean an Islamic state that replaces Israel. Since Hamas enjoys extremely broad support (up to 85% in all recent polls) both in Gaza and Judea & Samaria (also known as the West Bank, after the annexation by Jordan in 1948), it stands to reason that giving these people the right to vote in Israel would bring Hamas to power and it's a non-starter for the Jews, it would mean a new civil war just like in 1947. There will be no peace until the Arabs of Gaza and Judea & Samaria abandon the idea that Israel can be destroyed, or that the Jews can be driven away like the French were from Algeria. Unlike the French, the Jews have no France to go to. In fact, my prediction is that if the Gazans pull anything like the October the 8th again, they'll end up in tents in the Sinai.
Starting from the 1920s, when the British Mandate existed and the British government started importing European and American immigrants to occupy Palestine to today when the son of a Polish immigrant (Netanyahu's actual surname is Mileikowsky but his dad changed it to sound more Jewish) is the Israeli Prime Minister, what is now the nation of Israel has been one long imperialist project designed to establish a European colony in the Middle East at the expense of the basic human rights of the native Palestinian people. Israel has always been violent, militaristic, and genocidal. The current ethnic cleansing of Gaza is merely an acceleration of a slow moving genocide that has stretched across most of the 20th century.
But true. When do you want to start the timeline? We could go back to 7th century Medina where the profit slaughtered jews. Or 1929 Herron massacre of jews. Or the fact that the surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel the day after the UN resolution passed to create Israel and Palestine. They lost that war. Immediately after the Arabs lost the war they started, the Arab nations ethnically cleansed 900,000 Mizrahi jews. It all depends on when you want to start the timeline.
@@evamurray2564 you and I can spend hours going back and forth on who did what to whom. For example, you say the Jews from North Africa and Arab countries were ethnically cleansed and forced to flee to Israel. I totally agree. But you fail to mention that large and well integrated communities of Jews lived through out the Arab countries in relative peace. The expulsion of the mizrahi Jews came about after the establishment of the state of Israel and as a direct consequence of it. The idea that Jews and Arabs never coexisted is not factually correct. You say the Arabs attacked after the establishment of the state of Israel. That is also true. But if you were in their position, would you have settled for 45% of Palestine with most of the productive arable land and water sources given to the other party not to mention Arabs made up 2/3 of the population. It is my view, both groups have a claim to make, but this is the 21st century and there has to be a statute of limitations on who did what to whom at some point. If the Palestinians had killed or wounded 100, 000 Jews I would be saying the same thing. It has to stop. We can’t stand by and watch any massacre for any reason. What,s more Arabs and Jews have been going at each other for generations now, are we to condemn future generations to the same fate!
@What-kw6ox I did. If you bothered to read my comment. The nakba is a result of the war that the Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations started. This war that the Arabs started also resulted in 900,000 Mizrahi jews expulsion from the surrounding Arab nations. But whatever. Israel accepted these refugees displaced from war but the Arab nations kept their fellow brothers in refugee camps in perpetual war mode. But whatever. Much easy to spout nonsense from tiktok.
Sometimes it is just a refusal of accepting an Israeli state!!!! Maybe that is the only reason why this cycle of violence continues. Why did they not go after Egypt! They too do not let the gazans in!!!!
Because Egypt wasn't founded by stealing half the land from people and driving nearly a million people from their homes, and hasn't built the world's largest concentration camps in which to isolate, starve, dehumanize, and slaughter people.
Beats me why israel as the sole power between the river and the sea couldn't at the very least allow some basic semblance of a decent live for Palestinians in it's control? For how long does israel think it's policies against Palestinians is viable?
Palestinians respond with terror and murder, which has forced harsher control measures. Before the first intifada there was freedom of movement and shopping in each others communities and much more integration. President Begin even wanted to give Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza FULL Israeli citizenship and guess what happened? Jimmy Carter stopped him and then the PLO from outside launched a terror war and it’s been escalating since then.
@@williamerdman4888 based on what? Because you say so? Definitely false, unrealistic, illogical and nonsensical. Israel is the biggest impediment against peace in the holy land. The very fact you deny Palestinians their national identity and only refer to their ethnicity is prove of your bias. International law, UN security resolutions and concessus of over 185 nations worldwide by voting each year since 2000 have all been rejected by israel. Netanyahu rejects it today too. So wake up and smell the coffee Palestinians will be free Palestine as a state on 22% of historical Palestine will be created
@@williamerdman4888 if my statement is wrong why doesn't israel issue all Palestinians full and equal citizenship or end it's occupation and oppression against Palestinians? What is it doing on Palestinian internationally recognised territories? Why does israel need a settlement minister then?
@@Klopp2543 Would YOU offer the Palestinians full and equal rights at this time (?) - not if you had a brain and listened to their call for genocide of the Israeli people. The Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution FIVE times in the past, and the Palestinians, in their infinite wisdom, turned these down or started war in all cases. Israel needs a settlement minister to administer the settlements resulting from the 1967 Palestinian and Arab attacks upon their land. Those areas were taken over by the Israelis during the war started by Palestinians/Arabs and clearly are needed to protect the Israelis from the historically war-mongering Arabs - you would be careful in administering that land as well.
As soon as I hear someone say they're in favor of a "two state solution", then I'm clicking off this video and definitely not hitting the LIKE or SUBSCRIBE buttons!
What never ceases to amaze me is the seeming level of ignorance both individuals have in regards to Palestinians living in Gaza. Neither of them know anything about Palestinians, their goals, aspirations, how they see themselves or how they see Jews. When it comes to Palestinians, their total ignorance of the average Palestinian's mindset allows them to only make assumptions. Repeatedly they make the assumption that Palestinians are no different than them, and no different than the average person growing up in an egalitarian western democracy. I would challenge either of them to interview or view interviews of Gazan Palestinians. To take a look at school curricula generations of Palestinians have been indoctrinated into from 1 - 12 (there is no Kindergarten). Curricula with a total focus on engendering hatred for Jews and no recognition of the legality of the State of Israel. Russ does not like to think, that what he saw Palestinian civilians do to hostages that were brought through the streets of their villages, in the back of pickup trucks on October 7th, is indicative of the majority of Palestinians. Russ might not like to think that the Palestinian civilians he saw abusing and spitting on Israeli captives, as they were being transported through their city streets, is indicative of the majority of Palestinians, but in this assumption Russ would be ignorantly mistaken. Between 70 & 90% of Palestinians support Hamas, and are fully supportive of Hamas' actions on October 7th, and like Hamas, passionately want to see that level of genocide repeated until Israel ceases to exist. For Israel to falter now, for Israel to cease operations before Hamas is exterminated and outlawed would be foolish, and would see October 7th repeated over and over again.
It's not retribution. It is sound geopolitics. It is not possible to LIVE under the constant threat of rocket fire, and all the rest. Why blame Israel for Egypt's blockade of Gaza? Mr Wright should consult Dr Mordechai Keidar (pocasts eg Newsrael) to find out what a jolly crew are the Hamas.
Rafah crossing is in part of the peace deal between Egypt and Israel. Israel has the final authority on what Egypt allows in or out. I bet Palestinians have to live with worse way worse stuff than rockets flying in. What's factual is israel controls every level of Palestinians lives how they live,eat,go etc
Egypt has a blockade from Gaza into Egypt. Israel has a blockade into Israel but also prevents entering and exiting Gaza by air and sea. These are not equivalent, and it is whataboutism to emphasise the Rafah border when all other movement of goods and people is under the control of Israel. Wright's criticisms can't be dismissed by just stating how horrible Hamas is. Hamas is indeed despicable and these points still stand.
@@DrumsBahDidn't israel implemented the blockade in response to attacks from gaza? It seems pretty reasonable to insure that no weapons are imported. If they developed a thousands of missiles and huge tonnels under blockade, you would imagine what they could do without it.
@@eyetrackerru gazans are a result of the people pushed there from ethnic cleaning If Palestinians cannot have weapons , same should go for Israelis Stop the RACIST double standards
Debating whether or not Gaza is under occupation is like debating if 2+2=4. And making the claim that it’s not an open-air prison because some areas aren’t totally destitute misses the point of what the term prison means-being confined to an area against your will. The problem w/ narratives and talking points is actual truth and reality
@@allagamarnik3237 This sort of logic is always backwards. It’s not Egypt or any other “fellow Arab” country’s responsibility to do so, thereby making them an active contributor to ethnic cleansing. Rather, it’s Israel’s responsibility to stop the indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians that’s creating this humanitarian crisis.
Interesting that you claim that the Palestinians are confined to an area against their will, but when said Palestinians say they want to voluntarily leave said prison and emigrate to a new country to start a new life, people such as you say "no way Jose" (or however you might say that in Arabic).
At least Wright is capable of hearing a point of view (on a difficult subject) that he disagrees with without needing to impugn the character of the person he disagrees with.
@@chynabad9804ironic that Americans love their tribes but see that as an insult. God bless Israel for reminding the world that tribes, nations, religion, morality, these things do matter and trying to melt everything down into a universal conformity is dehumanizing. John Lennon was wrong. He imagined a world with no humanity.
@chynabad9804 you criticise the original poster of tribalism and then proceed to invoke that your tribe the gentiles are failing to notice Jewish tribalism. Hilarious. Perhaps gentiles need to analyse whether they have shed their hatred of jews.
It will come to pass,that these figures are pretty accurate. 31 thousand dead. 68 thousand severely wounded. 8 thousand still missing. Sincerely Michael Foley
The numbers came too fast. That alone tells you that they are not reliable. Israel said 1400 dead and later revised down to 1200. Health ministry of Gaza manages to count the dead instantaneously. That is not realistic. Maybe there there are more dead, maybe there are fewer. Among the dead, there are combatants. Hamas now says 6000 members were killed. Israel says 12000. Split the difference and call it 9000.
Aren't military commanders supposed to respond militarily, and desirably consideting war rules, contrary to emotional reaction which by the way seem like very guilty corrupted in charge officials use to avoid being charged and removed from office?
You are looking at this conflict as if it was between say Ukraine and Russia. It isn't. Welcome to the Middle East. Please note of a couple of points although I could write many books about particular sub elements in the conflict. THIS IS NOT A WAR ABOUT LAND, IT IS ABOUT RELIGION. Those who call themselves "Palestinians"(a construct created by the KGB in 1964 which is another reason it cannot work) want a state INSTEAD of Israel. UNRWA, through the perpetuation of refugee status for displaced Arabs, gave birth to HAMAS.
Only if you think religion allows you to ethnically cleanse others , expel them and take their homes If what you are saying is true. Jews , Christian and Muslims would not have been living together before the Zionists came
I’m curious as to why there’s been complete silence on the fact that the Israeli government knew about the Hamas attack at least a year in advance and did nothing to prevent it from taking place?
The Israeli gov normalized the idea of living under imminent threat and constant terror and violence from Gaza, from Hezbollah, from terror cells in the West Bank. Israel has been under attack for decades. Rockets, kidnappings, murders. The real question is why didn’t israel take action sooner. Why has israel tolerated the build up of enemies and rockets on its borders.
They did not "know", there was 1 intelligence officer that saw certain things that felt an attack might happen, the higher level officers did not believe that it could or would happen. The US had chatter that an attack like 9/11 would happen also, they ignored it. The same thing happened in Israel.
I read it book by two Jewish scholars called the Book of J and they made a compelling case that the Arab's are the true recipients of God's promise to the promised Land. In their opinion God also wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son so their would never be any Jews. If you think about it God actually asked less of Abraham than Sarah did who convinced him to murder not only his first born son but his mother as well and not to a quick death on an alter but to slowly die of exposure. God did not allow Abraham to murder the rightful recipients of God's promise and God will not allow it now.
Weight is probably the most tedious person in the world. Just heard his interaction with Hitchens and Wright couldn’t answer Hitchens becuz his tiny rigid mind couldn’t comprehend what Hitchens was saying.
Israel's count ... 24,000 killed, half militants (ratio of 1:1) The 12,000 "civilian" deaths include some forced to stay in harm's way by Hamas as shields, a despicable policy, and some who simply igrored the instruction to leave. And some just the horrible consequence of retaliation on you when you start a war with a sneak attack.
Your conclusion is wrong. Israel did take the bait, but Hamas will be judged positively in history. Oct 6th no talk of Palestine as usual. Now, no Palestinian will ever relent, the Zionist crossed a line they can never return to.
Heartbreaking to witness two intelligent, well intentioned and well informed (although not in agreement to all the “facts”) individuals with obvious goodwill spending close to 2 hours and at the end coming to nothing which moved the goalposts towards a meaningful proposal for resolution of this black hole of misery for all residents of this part of the world. Maybe you really can’t get there from here 😢
I couldn’t agree more with you. These types of discussions are very disappointing as they offer no hope and usually platitudes in the end.
@liversuccess1420 Then again, over 5 million people died in the Thirty Years War.
I don't think Israel is a black hole of misery. Its one of the richest most advanced nations on Earth.
No, you can get there-establish a ceasefire, end the occupation, and return stolen land so Palestinians can have self-determination.
Well said. I was thinking the same when the conversation ended. From when they started to when they ended, nothing changed. It speaks volumes to what this whole mess is all about.
There are a few other hidden fundamental differences that separate Muslims from everyone else. (1) the Koran allows Muslims to justify any behavior or act of violence they carry out, provided they can spin it as defending Islam against a picture, and image, something someone said, or even implied, if they consider it to be offensive by any standard of the imagination. (2)Another aspect of Islam is you’re not allowed to question any of its many contradictions. (3) That means Islam, by its very nature, is totalitarian. (4) As a result, negotiation is not acceptable as a means of resolving disputes. Only war and violence is respected in Islam. (5) Islam/Muhammed/Allah are all treated as being one and the same; a perceived slight against one is a slight against all three. (6) One of Islam’s (Koran) main themes is how to deal with very low self esteem, and how to restore honor. Low self esteem emanates from the Jews, who Islam refers to as “filthy dogs” (English translation of the Arabic), a people who no other country wants, keep winning wars against all odds. (7) Rather than entertaining the possibility that Islam isn’t the world’s first choice of religions, and that maybe Allah isn’t greater than all other gods, it acts under the premise that its only a matter of time until Islam reasserts its power and regains its lost prestige, primarily in the form of worldwide caliphates. (The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said exactly the same thing, when Hitler was stopped by the Red Army at the Iraq) Iran? border). (8) Knowing that the last Caliphate was still in existence less than 100 years ago, means that radical Muslims don’t think it’s impossible to resurrect it. (9) That Islam considers itself to be under an existential threat justifies using violence against any perceived threat. It feels it constantly needs to restore its honor, and to prove that its god is greater than all other gods. (10) In the event that a Muslim must enter into negotiations, there is a provision in Islam that allows a Muslim to (lie) make a deal with the enemy, if it will be used to catch the other side off guard (you kipper war, and others). (11) In other words, any deal you make with Muslims is not a deal at all. Consider Arafat at the Oslo Accords, when he leaves with a map detailing future borders of a Palestinian state, and then out of nowhere, launches the 2nd intifada in the year 2000, lasting 10 years. Prematurely awarding Arafat a Nobel prize for Peace is a fantastic boost to the morale of an organization that represents a people who seek to destroy Israel. (12) To a people who lie constantly, and who are well known for never taking responsibility for their actions, this couldn’t be a worse choice to make. These Arabs are an ethnic group who repeatedly launch wars of annihilation against other Muslims, Blacks, etc., and especially against Jews, who they openly hate and wish to eradicate from the face of the earth. This award only serves to diminish the relevance of Nobel’s prize for peace. (13) One of the many reasons why there’s no peace, is that the USA doesn’t use social anthropologists to help it understand the political and social nuances of each country in the region, and so they use Western strategies to interact with a culture foreign to them. (14) What’s more, they entered into a treaty with a man who is a con artist from Egypt, instead of insisting on a bona fide Arab from the former British mandated Palestine. (15) That Biden is trying to delegitimize Israel’s democratically elected govt tells me the USA doesn’t want peace in the region, just like the other Arab countries don’t. Israel seems to be growing up and ready to leave home, and its parents don’t like the idea, so the parents are not allowing them to use their car and they’re withholding their weekly allowance. Unfortunately, the parents are also somewhat dependent on their children for their defensive needs.
One long Gish gallop of stupidity here.
Russ equivocates way too much, it's simple, the Israelis despite being the more powerful party are willing to give up a lot to compromise. The Palestinians are unwilling to deal with a Jewish presence in any part of the land. I have sympathy with people on both sides and the different narratives, but in a debate, Russ was not an effective advocate for Israel.
Russ brought a knife to a gun fight. He wasn't debating.
LOL😂! 20% of Israeli residents are Arabs! You don’t see them blowing up things or killing Jews. Pretty much accepting the presence of Jews so long they are not harmed. But Palestinians live under martial laws. Of course they are fed up. How about ending the military occupation?
I appreciate how civil this discussion is.
Let me just say that your dominant argument about justifying Palestinian hatred of Israel because of their experiences totally negates the Israeli experience.
Why is it that no one makes the argument that the atrocities of 10/7 (and the prior decades of Palestinian terror) would cause a new generation of Israelis who are born and bred to hate and kill Palestinians?
Because that is not how Israel functions.
ALL Israel wants is peace. If they have to fight for that, they will do what needs to be done. But their next generation will not grow up with bloodthirst and a lust for violence and revenge.
Why all the double standards?
I haven't heard this before, but it's an interesting perspective
Everyone's whole perspective on this matter hinges on one question: Do YOU believe that the Palestinians just want justice, and if you correct all their grievances they will leave the Jews alone, or do you believe they just want to kill Jews because they're Muslim fundamentalists and it doesn't matter what you give them?
Everything else flows from how you answer that question. Answer it carefully. Study it, really study all the indications and the historical examples, because there are plenty of both.
You forgot the third option - it can be a land dispute, but palestinians want all the land and do not want to trade, so there is no place for jews. Israel has a record of trading land for peace (egypt, gaza), but palestinians are always choose to fight (and loose).
As a Palestinian who grew up under occupation and encountered IOF terrorists I have nothing against Jews. Nothing. It’s the abhorent Zionists
Well put. For those who are lucid, it is the latter question. Historically (religion) - Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Hajj Amin al-Husseini), a pro-Nazi supporter and collaborator, who birthed the "Palestinian movement". His protégés - Yasser Arafat in Gaza and Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) in Judea/Samaria. Historically (political) 5 wars, 2 Intifadas, etc, rejection of peace deals - Khartoum Resolution - 3 "No" in 1967, after the Six-Day War, 2-state "solution" even with 97% offered by Ehud Barak - rejected by Abbas, disengagement from Gaza (2005), October 7, 2023.
The only answer to this question is that it is erroneous to refer to an ethnic or religious group constituted of millions of people spread all over the planet as a single homogenous entity like your question does when you refer to “the Palestinians” and when you refer to “the Jews”. That point may sound pedantic to you but it is actually crucial when discussing such a complex issue.
It is absolutely true, so much evidence to support it, Palestinians just want Jews gone. That’s it. The whole reason for their existence is to eradicate the Jewish state. Never mind Jews make up .2% of the world’s population. About 16 million, while the Muslim population is about 2 billion 25% of of the worlds population. I’m out. RUclips is threatening to ban me because of my pro-Israel comments.
Ask yourself if somewhere in this world there are two Palestinians who are sitting down to have a rational discussion about whether or not what the Palestinian Arabs have done over the past 100 years vis-a-vis the Israelis has been warranted or not, ethical or not, justified or not. Where are you going to find a discussion from the Palestinian side of things that does this kind of soul-searching or objective rationalization of acts? I'm going to say you're not going to find such a discussion. There is a complete lack of objectivity on the Palestinian side. There is a complete lack of soul-searching, or criticism, or self-reflection. There is a complete lack of a willingness to assume any blame whatsoever for anything that has happened in this conflict on the Palestinian side.
Sooo true
Agreed. Unfortunately, it really is a case of two sides fundamentally different - the Jews who were always in the Levant, including Jerusalem, over the thousands of years of their history, have always been the naturally more conservative...and for the most part lived peacefully (dhimmi status aside) in the Muslim world. While the Jews of Europe and Spain were largely marginalised, they nevertheless absorbed elements of their new surroundings (modernity, technology, political ideology etc.) Thus these Jews were fundamental in the creation of the new state of Israel. The whole new creation of the new Israel brought with it huge costs and tragedies : getting all Israelis to learn Hebrew, accommodating the more "backward" Yemeni Jews, etc. It is only now, after 100 years, that we have a modern Israel with a "Mizrahi flavour" and an acceptance of themselves as people of the Middle East. The Jews historically have never been a large, war-like people...they never wanted to be Mongols or Romans. They were destroyed by the Romans, one might say, because they were closer ! And of the two peoples, Mongols and Jews, which one has contributed more to human civilisation ?
I submit that even if the Romans had not destroyed the Temple and dispersed the Jews, they would have survived as a small people in their homeland, and survived even the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. Today, it is 1-2% of the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide who have been awarded the Nobel prize. Of the 15 million Jews worldwide, 25% are Nobel prize winners.
EXCELLENT…!
There are a few other hidden fundamental differences that separate Muslims from everyone else. (1) the Koran allows Muslims to justify any behavior or act of violence they carry out, provided they can spin it as defending Islam against a picture, and image, something someone said, or even implied, if they consider it to be offensive by any standard of the imagination. (2)Another aspect of Islam is you’re not allowed to question any of its many contradictions. (3) That means Islam, by its very nature, is totalitarian. (4) As a result, negotiation is not acceptable as a means of resolving disputes. Only war and violence is respected in Islam. (5) Islam/Muhammed/Allah are all treated as being one and the same; a perceived slight against one is a slight against all three. (6) One of Islam’s (Koran) main themes is how to deal with very low self esteem, and how to restore honor. Low self esteem emanates from the Jews, who Islam refers to as “filthy dogs” (English translation of the Arabic), a people who no other country wants, keep winning wars against all odds. (7) Rather than entertaining the possibility that Islam isn’t the world’s first choice of religions, and that maybe Allah isn’t greater than all other gods, it acts under the premise that its only a matter of time until Islam reasserts its power and regains its lost prestige, primarily in the form of worldwide caliphates. (The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem said exactly the same thing, when Hitler was stopped by the Red Army at the Iraq) Iran? border). (8) Knowing that the last Caliphate was still in existence less than 100 years ago, means that radical Muslims don’t think it’s impossible to resurrect it. (9) That Islam considers itself to be under an existential threat justifies using violence against any perceived threat. It feels it constantly needs to restore its honor, and to prove that its god is greater than all other gods. (10) In the event that a Muslim must enter into negotiations, there is a provision in Islam that allows a Muslim to (lie) make a deal with the enemy, if it will be used to catch the other side off guard (you kipper war, and others). (11) In other words, any deal you make with Muslims is not a deal at all. Consider Arafat at the Oslo Accords, when he leaves with a map detailing future borders of a Palestinian state, and then out of nowhere, launches the 2nd intifada in the year 2000, lasting 10 years. Prematurely awarding Arafat a Nobel prize for Peace is a fantastic boost to the morale of an organization that represents a people who seek to destroy Israel. (12) To a people who lie constantly, and who are well known for never taking responsibility for their actions, this couldn’t be a worse choice to make. These Arabs are an ethnic group who repeatedly launch wars of annihilation against other Muslims, Blacks, etc., and especially against Jews, who they openly hate and wish to eradicate from the face of the earth. This award only serves to diminish the relevance of Nobel’s prize for peace. (13) One of the many reasons why there’s no peace, is that the USA doesn’t use social anthropologists to help it understand the political and social nuances of each country in the region, and so they use Western strategies to interact with a culture foreign to them. (14) What’s more, they entered into a treaty with a man who is a con artist from Egypt, instead of insisting on a bona fide Arab from the former British mandated Palestine. (15) That Biden is trying to delegitimize Israel’s democratically elected govt tells me the USA doesn’t want peace in the region, just like the other Arab countries don’t. Israel seems to be growing up and ready to leave home, and its parents don’t like the idea, so the parents are not allowing them to use their car and they’re withholding their weekly allowance. Unfortunately, the parents are also somewhat dependent on their children for their defensive needs.
No, there are Arabinians who self-examine. But very, very few few. PLO/Fatah trained and enabled the Islamic Republic revolution and everything flows from the Submission plan of that oppressive, genocidal (even, self-genocidal) Jihadists.😢
22 Arab states (with few to no Jews left), 59 Muslim countries (as mentioned), 1 Jewish state (with 2 million Arabs as citizens).
As soon as I hear someone say they're in favor of a "two state solution", then I'm clicking off this video and definitely not hitting the LIKE or SUBSCRIBE buttons!
And rightly so. Many problems in life are unsolvable. @@bryanjackson8917
@@bryanjackson8917ok let’s have a one state soloution , equal rights for all ???
I got a feeling , you will not favour this either !!!
@@jameslevitt7313google polls of gaza residents, they all show that the only one state solution that they want seems to be the one with no Jews in it. This is a religious proxy war with Iran on the other side of Israel.
There is one factor that has driven this conflict more than any other. And that factor is that the Islamic countries of the Middle East cannot abide to have another ethnic or religious community be sovereign within the Middle Eastern territory. It is their belief that any other ethnic group or religious group must be subject to Islam. They cannot be anything other than second or third class citizens. They must answer to the laws of Islam. The Palestinian Arabs in the surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel first in 1948 because they could not abide having a Jewish state in their midst it was not subject to Islam. And every attack since then has been motivated by that exact same philosophy. It has little or nothing to do with occupying forces, or settlers, or open-air prisons in Gaza, or any of that. All of those conditions have flowed from the initial problem that the Islamists have with Jews living in Arab lands. The argument that the one speaker is making that the attacks on Gaza now are going to create more radical elements that are going to attack Israel in the future is irrelevant. Why? Because the Islamists in the Middle East already hated and wanted to destroy Israel, and nothing that Israel can do will change that or ameliorate that or make that go away or stop..
Wright is seriously delusional in his view of the Palestinians. He actually thinks that they’re a friendly, democratic, tolerant, peace-loving people. When all evidence is to the contrary…
You are talking BS because of a lack of knowledge of history or just pure lies,
Jews and Muslims have lived together for 100s of years in fact Muslims protected the Jews from the Christians. fact Muslims believe in all Jewish prophets including Jesus, do you think Muslims hate those prophets because they were Jews? No one can call himself a Muslim if he does,
There is no compulsion in religion this is in the Quran if you care to find out,
There was no Israel before 1948 the UN and the British gave part of Palestine to the Zionists that part has grown because the Zionists want it all, greed runs in their blood,
Does any Arab or Muslim can deny that Jesus was born in Palestine? the answer is NO so for this reason for Jews to live in that land is not a problem, the problem is that those who were not from that area went there from another part of the world and claimed the land was theirs, ask the Romans if they can claim all the eria they used to occupy is theirs because their incesters used to live there,
Palestinians don't hate Jews and not all Palestinians are Muslims they hate occupation they may hate the Zionists which the majority are atheists
credit to Russ for delivering a balanced assessment. both had interesting points which are often missing from broader public discourse.
The Israeli civilian casualties from the thousands of rockets launched into Israel from Gaza since 7/10 should have been over 40,000. Thankfully these casualties were prevented by the billions invested by Israel in shelters and the iron dome Missile Defence System. That is how one should look at the facile "proportionality" issue.
Also, assuming that the majority of deaths in Gaza have been due to air launched bombs, and the fact that approximately 20-30% of Hamas' own rockets have landed in the Palestinian's territory, then that means that as much as 20-30% of the civilian deaths in Gaza reported by the Palestinian Health Authority are attributable to Hamas.
You only believe the stories that fit the narrative you have been brainwashed to believe. Unfortunately both comments are neither absurd nor untrue. The rocket that fell on the el shifa hospital was fired from close by in Gaza by a terrorist group, but was attributed to Israel. That was ultimately acknowledged as true also.@michellenorris8471
It is interesting that Mr. Wright is quite understanding of Putin's fear of a hypothetical potential aggression on the borders of his vast country. Where is such understanding in case of a tiny country experiencing a real brutal aggression by an implacable and determined foe? It seems inconsistent until you notice that he is consistently on the side opposite of the US. Could Mr. Wright be wrong at least half of the time?
Exactly, great point
Good talk. Balanced.
how do you share a stage with someone as clearly antisemitic as Robert Wright and why not push back when he defended rape against Israeli woman
Russ Roberts also said nothing to counter the slander/blood libel of Wright that Israeli babies were not decapitated or burned alive (in a microwave) which is 100% true and fully documented. Russ Roberts was pathetic in his feeble responses to Wrights rants and that is because Roberts is yet another Jew desperate to be seen as liberal and "enlightened".
After Israel withdrew Gazans started suicide bombing that is why there is a blockage
Around the 1 hr mark Russ talks about the Israeli communities in Gaza… he says they weren’t able to live normal lives so israel destroyed them and forced them to leave. This really says it all. Those Israelis weren’t looking for “normal” lives. Plenty of Palestinians aren’t looking for “normal” lives. The western mentality is that everyone just wants material comfort and basic freedoms. This flawed outlook and the solutions it generates have kept israel/Palestine in conflict for a hundred years. Gazans proved in October 7th and over the last 18 years that they’re not interested in “normal”. They want Jerusalem, they want Al Aqsa, they want to show that Allah is the greatest. And there are hundreds of thousands of Israelis that want to fight for the land of israel and rebuild authentic Hebrew civilization. This conflict can’t be understood or solved through the western material lens.
They both want the land. There is nothing special or hard to understand about that.
And the al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem has No importance to Islam. The al Aqsa mosque was not named or built until 70 years after Muhammad's death. There were no Muslims in Jerusalem until after Muhammad's death, why would there be a mosque in Jerusalem when not one Muslim lived there yet?
Umar, the Caliph that arrived in Jerusalem (after Muhammad's death) found a garbage dump of the Temple Mount, he had to clean and clear this in order to build a small wooden prayer shack to pray because there was no mosque there.
The Real al Aqsa mosque is in Ji'rrana, Saudi Arabia near Taif. In Arabic writings, Muhammad had prayed in the al Aqsa mosque in Ji'rrana, Saudi Arabia.
@@shainazion4073 I seem to remember some sort of myth that Mohamed magically flew to Jerusalem and set up a mosque. Its been awhile.
@@glennwatson3313 Except Nowhere in the verse is Jerusalem mentioned, again the al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem was not named or built until 70 years after Muhammad's death by the Umayyads.
@@shainazion4073 I'm sure you are correct. My memory of the Koran is from study done decades ago. I seem to remember some sort of mystical journey by Mohammed to the Holy Land. I will look it up.
This was an excellent and frustrating conversation.
I think 1948 is too late to begin any discussion about "who started it".
That being said, I do appreciate the emphasis on "moving forward" vs. "who cast the first stone"
Robert is questioning if there is proof of rapes? Wow. Shows how very low.
Sorry, Mr. Roberts, I don’t think you had a fair opponent at all.
i agree he was rational, mr roberts was deeply problematic
It's strange to me that Russ Roberts, a libertarian, is so supportive of an ethnocracy, libertarianism is more in favor of universalism while an ethnically and sectarian-based nationalism. Israel has never had a non-Ashkenazi Prime Minister, it would be like if the US never had a Catholic or non-English descendent of the Mayflower president.
There is no resolution to this conflict. The only (slight) hope is that Enlightenment values (Voltaire and Hume rather than Rousseau) will begin to seep into the Arab societies with the spread of access to the internet. Don’t hold your breath!
Pretty strange that Mr. Wright in his argumentation refers only to what he himself wrote.
Why is that strange?
@@glennwatson3313”it is true because I said so 10 years ago”?
I found the gentleman bit arrogant with a hint of narcissism
Not really. Historians do it all the time. When you've written the research there is no reason not to use it. Better to use what you know is right than cite others just for the sake of doing so.
Ok, I’m just under an hour in, the Israeli guy has taken every damn second.
His first question??? Egosh. Im gone
There are many elephants in the room but the two simplest one are these: 1 - Arabs lost, and are now completely abandoned even by the overlords who've traditionally supported them. So much so that they've had to get support from Shia Iran (unthinkable a generation ago, for THEM). They have lost and except for the Westerners who force Israel into (note:) ceasefires (note:) and NOT PEACE - always a ceasefire... the losing party would've learned their lesson by now. Which brings us to the second elephant in the room: 2 - there will always be elements who don't accept defeat and worse, take a militant approach to resistance. We have countless times in history defeated those elements, most recently in Mosul or more illustratively Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. In all those cases how did we do it? We did it by bringing such horrible death and destruction... that by the time the population BEGGED to surrender, there wasn't a single person who thought (or was able to garner any support by the population) that armed resistance (ie against civilian populations, aka terrorism) is a good idea. All victors throughout history have done this. Until it comes to Israel, which we repeatedly prevent from doing so. The death toll in Gaza shouldn't be 50k - it should be 500+k - not because we hate Arabs but because after 80 years they refuse to learn they've lost and worse, enabled by Western supporters are signaled to think that even after an Oct 7th, nothing that bad will really happen to them.
Please address the elephants in the room. It is time, first and foremost for Gazans' sake
Porportionality is actually a millitary legal term not meaning what people think. So when talking about war and right and wrong, war crimes one would think thats what is ment. But its not mostly.
It's hard to understand how an hour and 46 minutes was spent talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict and none of the most important aspects were discussed: No discussion of the imminent starvation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinian civilians, war crimes ongoing in Gaza, right to return for Gazan refugees, nor incitement of [G word] by Israeli politicians in power and military members.
None of this is "important". The Gazans are getting hundreds of trucks daily with food, water, medicine and fuel. Hamas is stealing about 60% of the trucks.
A few basic truths that unfortunately is lost on both participants. The Peace agreement between Israel and Jordan, The Peace Agreement with Egypt and Israel, the 1922 Mandate as ratified all conspire to prove that Israel cannot illegally settle in its own land nor can it "occupy" it.
Russ, polite to a fault, as always, so not that lively :)
Having heard a couple of stomach-churning interviews that Mr. Wright had with other guests, where he seemed in broad agreement with, or even advancing ideas wholly stupid or even malicious (such as giving all Arabs from Gaza and Judea & Samaria the right to vote in Israel, so they can have a Hamas government in control of the IDF, and the 7th of October every day), I think he was deserving of much more liveliness...
Arabs?judea and samaria?hamas control IDF? For starters Arabs is an ethnicity not a nationality. Those you call Arabs call themselves Palestinians(beats me why you find it difficult identifying them as the expect, i hope it's not to dehumanise them) secondly conflating hamas with Palestinians is nonsensical and illogical. Israel states hamas as about 30,000 Palestinians are over 5 million. The PA in the west bank work with Israel.
My question what's your solution to the Palestinian question? If it's 2 states how do you envision their state will be and encompass?
I don’t care if WB Arabs all voted for the Green Party, Israeli sovereignty over the heartland of israel aka Palestine is not up for discussion. Arabs of the WB should have 3 choices, the choices Joshua ben Nun offered: accept Israel & live in peace, leave, or war. Those that want real peace can have their own semi-autonomous self gov whether they want that to look like western liberal democracy (doubtful) or clan rule (like the gulf states) or a strong man (like the rest of the Arab world) or a theocracy or whatever. Israel needs to stop talking about democracy, which it is not as its high court has constantly proven, and instead talk about the unique Jewish ways that Jewish tradition has thought about peace, partnership, and living with others in the land of israel.
@@LOPEKJJJ It is an extreme position to claim there can be no discussion of a sovereign Palestinian West Bank. Why do you see this as a movement towards peace?
@@DrumsBah it’s a fair question. “Peace” without justice is not peace. The two state solution has been pushed down on Israelis and Palestinians for 100 years now and it’s only created more violence and destruction. Sovereignty over the land of israel, especially the heartland ie. Jerusalem and the West Bank is a non-starter for enough Israelis that you’ll never get to “peace” if that’s the goal. Jewish identity has been innately tied to Jerusalem and the WB for thousands of years and losing this land after reclaiming sovereignty over it would reopen the historic injustice against the Jewish people that caused them to lose this land originally. And enough Palestinians similarly don’t want to see Palestine cut up that they are willing to fight and die. Real peace can only come from a starting point where the people on the ground and their sense of justice and their aspirations are respected. Drawing lines on a map might work for Europeans but it doesn’t play in Israel/Palestine.
@@Klopp2543 I was as precise as possible. "Palestine" is a historical term for a larger territory including a varied population, and the name itself was given by the Romans, seems to be based on "Philistines", one of the populations of Greek origins who lived there. I don't think it precisely identifies the Arabs living in Gaza or Judea and Samaria, many of which are of Egyptian, Jordanian etc. origin and not "Palestinian" in any historical sense.
Calling all these Arabs "Palestinians" is a recent invention and a language trick used by the PLO to suggest they are the "true" natives of the old region of Palestine, and thus the owners of the land of Israel, hence the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" incantation. It's only "free" in English by the way, because it sounds good and gives useful idiots in the West the illusion of them wanting to establish some type of liberal democracy, which is far from the case. They mean an Islamic state that replaces Israel.
Since Hamas enjoys extremely broad support (up to 85% in all recent polls) both in Gaza and Judea & Samaria (also known as the West Bank, after the annexation by Jordan in 1948), it stands to reason that giving these people the right to vote in Israel would bring Hamas to power and it's a non-starter for the Jews, it would mean a new civil war just like in 1947.
There will be no peace until the Arabs of Gaza and Judea & Samaria abandon the idea that Israel can be destroyed, or that the Jews can be driven away like the French were from Algeria. Unlike the French, the Jews have no France to go to.
In fact, my prediction is that if the Gazans pull anything like the October the 8th again, they'll end up in tents in the Sinai.
Could Russ be less concise,yikes.
If Islam had problem with Israel or with Jewish only I would say may be or just may be but their problem is with this whole humanity
I think Robert Wright is giving us the proof that Orwell was right to say that some ideas are so ridiculous only an intellectual could believe them.
Starting from the 1920s, when the British Mandate existed and the British government started importing European and American immigrants to occupy Palestine to today when the son of a Polish immigrant (Netanyahu's actual surname is Mileikowsky but his dad changed it to sound more Jewish) is the Israeli Prime Minister, what is now the nation of Israel has been one long imperialist project designed to establish a European colony in the Middle East at the expense of the basic human rights of the native Palestinian people. Israel has always been violent, militaristic, and genocidal. The current ethnic cleansing of Gaza is merely an acceleration of a slow moving genocide that has stretched across most of the 20th century.
“We didn’t start this ,,,”, unreal.
But true. When do you want to start the timeline? We could go back to 7th century Medina where the profit slaughtered jews. Or 1929 Herron massacre of jews. Or the fact that the surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel the day after the UN resolution passed to create Israel and Palestine. They lost that war. Immediately after the Arabs lost the war they started, the Arab nations ethnically cleansed 900,000 Mizrahi jews. It all depends on when you want to start the timeline.
@@evamurray2564 you and I can spend hours going back and forth on who did what to whom. For example, you say the Jews from North Africa and Arab countries were ethnically cleansed and forced to flee to Israel. I totally agree. But you fail to mention that large and well integrated communities of Jews lived through out the Arab countries in relative peace. The expulsion of the mizrahi Jews came about after the establishment of the state of Israel and as a direct consequence of it. The idea that Jews and Arabs never coexisted is not factually correct. You say the Arabs attacked after the establishment of the state of Israel. That is also true. But if you were in their position, would you have settled for 45% of Palestine with most of the productive arable land and water sources given to the other party not to mention Arabs made up 2/3 of the population. It is my view, both groups have a claim to make, but this is the 21st century and there has to be a statute of limitations on who did what to whom at some point. If the Palestinians had killed or wounded 100, 000 Jews I would be saying the same thing. It has to stop. We can’t stand by and watch any massacre for any reason. What,s more Arabs and Jews have been going at each other for generations now, are we to condemn future generations to the same fate!
It's true.
@@evamurray2564let’s go to 1948 and the nakba
@What-kw6ox I did. If you bothered to read my comment. The nakba is a result of the war that the Palestinians and surrounding Arab nations started. This war that the Arabs started also resulted in 900,000 Mizrahi jews expulsion from the surrounding Arab nations. But whatever. Israel accepted these refugees displaced from war but the Arab nations kept their fellow brothers in refugee camps in perpetual war mode. But whatever. Much easy to spout nonsense from tiktok.
Sometimes it is just a refusal of accepting an Israeli state!!!! Maybe that is the only reason why this cycle of violence continues.
Why did they not go after Egypt! They too do not let the gazans in!!!!
Because Egypt wasn't founded by stealing half the land from people and driving nearly a million people from their homes, and hasn't built the world's largest concentration camps in which to isolate, starve, dehumanize, and slaughter people.
Beats me why israel as the sole power between the river and the sea couldn't at the very least allow some basic semblance of a decent live for Palestinians in it's control? For how long does israel think it's policies against Palestinians is viable?
Palestinians respond with terror and murder, which has forced harsher control measures. Before the first intifada there was freedom of movement and shopping in each others communities and much more integration. President Begin even wanted to give Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza FULL Israeli citizenship and guess what happened? Jimmy Carter stopped him and then the PLO from outside launched a terror war and it’s been escalating since then.
I don't think your statement is correct. The Israelis are willing to live in peace with the arabs, but the opposite is not true.
@@williamerdman4888 based on what? Because you say so? Definitely false, unrealistic, illogical and nonsensical. Israel is the biggest impediment against peace in the holy land. The very fact you deny Palestinians their national identity and only refer to their ethnicity is prove of your bias.
International law, UN security resolutions and concessus of over 185 nations worldwide by voting each year since 2000 have all been rejected by israel. Netanyahu rejects it today too.
So wake up and smell the coffee Palestinians will be free Palestine as a state on 22% of historical Palestine will be created
@@williamerdman4888 if my statement is wrong why doesn't israel issue all Palestinians full and equal citizenship or end it's occupation and oppression against Palestinians? What is it doing on Palestinian internationally recognised territories? Why does israel need a settlement minister then?
@@Klopp2543 Would YOU offer the Palestinians full and equal rights at this time (?) - not if you had a brain and listened to their call for genocide of the Israeli people. The Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution FIVE times in the past, and the Palestinians, in their infinite wisdom, turned these down or started war in all cases.
Israel needs a settlement minister to administer the settlements resulting from the 1967 Palestinian and Arab attacks upon their land. Those areas were taken over by the Israelis during the war started by Palestinians/Arabs and clearly are needed to protect the Israelis from the historically war-mongering Arabs - you would be careful in administering that land as well.
As soon as I hear someone say they're in favor of a "two state solution", then I'm clicking off this video and definitely not hitting the LIKE or SUBSCRIBE buttons!
What never ceases to amaze me is the seeming level of ignorance both individuals have in regards to Palestinians living in Gaza. Neither of them know anything about Palestinians, their goals, aspirations, how they see themselves or how they see Jews. When it comes to Palestinians, their total ignorance of the average Palestinian's mindset allows them to only make assumptions. Repeatedly they make the assumption that Palestinians are no different than them, and no different than the average person growing up in an egalitarian western democracy. I would challenge either of them to interview or view interviews of Gazan Palestinians. To take a look at school curricula generations of Palestinians have been indoctrinated into from 1 - 12 (there is no Kindergarten). Curricula with a total focus on engendering hatred for Jews and no recognition of the legality of the State of Israel. Russ does not like to think, that what he saw Palestinian civilians do to hostages that were brought through the streets of their villages, in the back of pickup trucks on October 7th, is indicative of the majority of Palestinians. Russ might not like to think that the Palestinian civilians he saw abusing and spitting on Israeli captives, as they were being transported through their city streets, is indicative of the majority of Palestinians, but in this assumption Russ would be ignorantly mistaken. Between 70 & 90% of Palestinians support Hamas, and are fully supportive of Hamas' actions on October 7th, and like Hamas, passionately want to see that level of genocide repeated until Israel ceases to exist. For Israel to falter now, for Israel to cease operations before Hamas is exterminated and outlawed would be foolish, and would see October 7th repeated over and over again.
Israelis Arabs are Palestinians. Look how peaceful they are. Why? Because they don’t live under military occupation.
It's not retribution. It is sound geopolitics. It is not possible to LIVE under the constant threat of rocket fire, and all the rest. Why blame Israel for Egypt's blockade of Gaza? Mr Wright should consult Dr Mordechai Keidar (pocasts eg Newsrael) to find out what a jolly crew are the Hamas.
Rafah crossing is in part of the peace deal between Egypt and Israel. Israel has the final authority on what Egypt allows in or out.
I bet Palestinians have to live with worse way worse stuff than rockets flying in. What's factual is israel controls every level of Palestinians lives how they live,eat,go etc
Egypt has a blockade from Gaza into Egypt. Israel has a blockade into Israel but also prevents entering and exiting Gaza by air and sea. These are not equivalent, and it is whataboutism to emphasise the Rafah border when all other movement of goods and people is under the control of Israel.
Wright's criticisms can't be dismissed by just stating how horrible Hamas is. Hamas is indeed despicable and these points still stand.
@@DrumsBahDidn't israel implemented the blockade in response to attacks from gaza? It seems pretty reasonable to insure that no weapons are imported. If they developed a thousands of missiles and huge tonnels under blockade, you would imagine what they could do without it.
@@eyetrackerru gazans are a result of the people pushed there from ethnic cleaning
If Palestinians cannot have weapons , same should go for Israelis
Stop the RACIST double standards
@@eyetrackerru💯
Wright has a very superficial understanding, it seems.
Not superficial, it is evil, twisted and perverse understanding
a very egregious, woke mind....pity, he could have been a very good academic...@@mmikee407
@@mmikee407 and I suppose equal rights equals antisemitism
I don't envy you . Talking to the lunatics must be draining! This guest is the very scary picture of the far left. Sad
Debating whether or not Gaza is under occupation is like debating if 2+2=4. And making the claim that it’s not an open-air prison because some areas aren’t totally destitute misses the point of what the term prison means-being confined to an area against your will. The problem w/ narratives and talking points is actual truth and reality
Gaza has a border with Egypt. Why don't fellow Arabs in Egypt allow Gazans in and out?
@@allagamarnik3237 This sort of logic is always backwards. It’s not Egypt or any other “fellow Arab” country’s responsibility to do so, thereby making them an active contributor to ethnic cleansing. Rather, it’s Israel’s responsibility to stop the indiscriminate bombing and killing of civilians that’s creating this humanitarian crisis.
You clearly haven't read the PLO or Hamas Charters, have you ?@@groundworkhealthfitness1169
Israel's responsibility is to protect the citizens of Israel. That's is the number one priority of any government.
Interesting that you claim that the Palestinians are confined to an area against their will, but when said Palestinians say they want to voluntarily leave said prison and emigrate to a new country to start a new life, people such as you say "no way Jose" (or however you might say that in Arabic).
Wright is scrambling to find something consistent to defend his views , he is pathetic
Can you give an example? I just listened to the episode and I didn’t get that impression
Wright is practically mild in his criticism. You are rabid with tribalism, something gentiles do not fail to notice these days.
At least Wright is capable of hearing a point of view (on a difficult subject) that he disagrees with without needing to impugn the character of the person he disagrees with.
@@chynabad9804ironic that Americans love their tribes but see that as an insult. God bless Israel for reminding the world that tribes, nations, religion, morality, these things do matter and trying to melt everything down into a universal conformity is dehumanizing. John Lennon was wrong. He imagined a world with no humanity.
@chynabad9804 you criticise the original poster of tribalism and then proceed to invoke that your tribe the gentiles are failing to notice Jewish tribalism. Hilarious.
Perhaps gentiles need to analyse whether they have shed their hatred of jews.
It will come to pass,that these figures are pretty accurate.
31 thousand dead. 68 thousand severely wounded.
8 thousand still missing.
Sincerely Michael Foley
The numbers came too fast. That alone tells you that they are not reliable. Israel said 1400 dead and later revised down to 1200. Health ministry of Gaza manages to count the dead instantaneously. That is not realistic. Maybe there there are more dead, maybe there are fewer. Among the dead, there are combatants. Hamas now says 6000 members were killed. Israel says 12000. Split the difference and call it 9000.
Aren't military commanders supposed to respond militarily, and desirably consideting war rules, contrary to emotional reaction which by the way seem like very guilty corrupted in charge officials use to avoid being charged and removed from office?
You are looking at this conflict as if it was between say Ukraine and Russia. It isn't. Welcome to the Middle East. Please note of a couple of points although I could write many books about particular sub elements in the conflict. THIS IS NOT A WAR ABOUT LAND, IT IS ABOUT RELIGION. Those who call themselves "Palestinians"(a construct created by the KGB in 1964 which is another reason it cannot work) want a state INSTEAD of Israel. UNRWA, through the perpetuation of refugee status for displaced Arabs, gave birth to HAMAS.
Only if you think religion allows you to ethnically cleanse others , expel them and take their homes
If what you are saying is true. Jews , Christian and Muslims would not have been living together before the Zionists came
Wright’s views have no ground
mr wright is boring me
I’m curious as to why there’s been complete silence on the fact that the Israeli government knew about the Hamas attack at least a year in advance and did nothing to prevent it from taking place?
That is not true.
Citation?
The Israeli gov normalized the idea of living under imminent threat and constant terror and violence from Gaza, from Hezbollah, from terror cells in the West Bank. Israel has been under attack for decades. Rockets, kidnappings, murders. The real question is why didn’t israel take action sooner. Why has israel tolerated the build up of enemies and rockets on its borders.
They did not "know", there was 1 intelligence officer that saw certain things that felt an attack might happen, the higher level officers did not believe that it could or would happen. The US had chatter that an attack like 9/11 would happen also, they ignored it. The same thing happened in Israel.
@@shainazion4073 There is always some chatter in every conflict about sneak attack's happening here or there.
I read it book by two Jewish scholars called the Book of J and they made a compelling case that the Arab's are the true recipients of God's promise to the promised Land. In their opinion God also wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son so their would never be any Jews. If you think about it God actually asked less of Abraham than Sarah did who convinced him to murder not only his first born son but his mother as well and not to a quick death on an alter but to slowly die of exposure. God did not allow Abraham to murder the rightful recipients of God's promise and God will not allow it now.
Weight is probably the most tedious person in the world. Just heard his interaction with Hitchens and Wright couldn’t answer Hitchens becuz his tiny rigid mind couldn’t comprehend what Hitchens was saying.
Israel's count ...
24,000 killed, half militants (ratio of 1:1)
The 12,000 "civilian" deaths include some forced to stay in harm's way by Hamas as shields, a despicable policy, and some who simply igrored the instruction to leave. And some just the horrible consequence of retaliation on you when you start a war with a sneak attack.
And some were killed when Hamas and Islamic Jihad fired rockets that fell short of Israel and landed in Gaza.
You don’t have the right to expel the whole population from their homes , now or in 1948
My conclusion from this debate is hamas is the true evil and is winning bcs Israel took the bait.
Hamas won on 7th October. Now they will lose.
I don't see that, what do you mean?
Your conclusion is wrong. Israel did take the bait, but Hamas will be judged positively in history. Oct 6th no talk of Palestine as usual. Now, no Palestinian will ever relent, the Zionist crossed a line they can never return to.
@@williamerdman4888don’t hold you breath for a sensible reply