You say that the scripted RPG approach is more vague, but it's the opposite it's more detailed because each route has been carefully crafted by the devs, each choice is an intended experience. Whereas a system that just stitches dialogue lines together will be the one who's more vague, and I don't see how you could create a deep and detailed story with such a random system. It seems like the worst of both worlds for so little advantages... I hope i'm wrong and it turns out to be amazing and really innovative, but for now i have so many doubts and questions
No what he's saying is it's a rogue like narrative. So just like a rogue like you'll get random procedural story bits. So just like a rogue like, the story like the levels will be randomly slapped together.
Watch Ken Levine’s 2014 GDC talk called “Narrative Legos.” When he has a whole hour to himself and slides to explain it’s a lot more understandable. What he’s describing is not like a traditional RPG where your choices are mostly binary (with a few exceptions) where you have to satisfy certain conditions or raise an NPCs affinity level to a certain point in order to unlock an outcome. He’s describing something that’s more so based on what the player character does at certain times and how often they repeat the same actions; there is more of an ebb and flow to the PC’s decisions and NPC affinity which is actually atypical to most RPGs believe it or not. You can make the argument that he’s not doing anything that Baldur’s Gate 3 or other Bioware games haven’t already done but what he means is the implementation and variety of outcomes may be much more extensive relative to his Judas game.
when the studio lead or lead dev struggles to define what their game is or what its vision is. thats probably one of the worst red flags imaginable. you generally see that level of confusion and lack of understanding bleed heavily into the games design.
I think that this system will make more sense when the game comes out. I think he's trying something new and it's hard to understand without experienceing it first hand.
The way you explained the pathways and blocks was genius. You did 100% better explaining the concept than Levine did himself. Best gaming channel by far 🙌😎
I think you’ll definitely understand better when you play it. I get a pretty good idea of it but it’s a pretty foundational thing just how the actual system has been built. It’s like an opportunity simulator with various consequences continuously adding onto each other. The characters have the “potential” to react in a given number of ways that then opens up for more ways to react and it continuously builds simply based on what you choose to do. It never has a plan, it only has many, many potentials of what can happen in any given situation and your experience will be the aggregation of all you did and have ultimately brought upon yourself.
I´m not, Bethesda promised 1000 planets- of course it´s gonna be boring. This is I feel pretty unique way to make still smaller scope story driven experiences with considerable amount of variables to make each run interesting, but still maintain that quality of storytelling and environments from linear games. Of course I can be wrong, but I think this has much more of a potential than Starfield ever had.
@@CZJames20no offense but i think bringing down your expectations might be a good idea. He doesnt really answer questions, he doesnt have any proof, and he feels like a todd howard type of sweet talker. If he showed up with a sequence from the game to show off his idea then i could get excited. Until then skepticially anticipation it is.
@@Tomberculosis-q1i I don´t really have a reason to doubt him as the aforementioned Todd Howard, I´m not expecting second coming but I think he and his team will deliver very good game.
Healthy skepticism is always good. But he’s not talking in riddles he’s simply sayin he wants the game to be reactive to the players actions. He gave an example like Elizabeth leaving booker cuz he was too violent in infinite. Now how they will go about it is definitely up in the air and if the game will truly be that unique player driven odyssey who knows. But this isn’t the comparable to Todd Howard situation I think and still have faith in Levine as he truly seems dedicated to his craft. In top of that his last game was infinite which was a postive reviewed game compared to bgs last game being fallout 76 coming into star field
This, this is part of why we get more expensive games. We have 2 things that do the same thing, one is easier to do and probably more cost effective, and the other is complicated and probably extremely expensive to develop, but they both do essentially the same thing.
Hes describing a system that is dynmaic. In games with scripted quest lines (most of them) they can only flow in the direction that the developers intend it to. Even in an RPG the all the senerios have to all be accounted for. every potential NPC death has to have some script that will change the flow of quests for example. That could mean the quest ends, a different NPC takes their place, or maybe the game just ends lol. Ken seems to be describing a system that is focusing on free flow/ that no matter what choices the player makes they have some scenario that the game will dynamically fill based on your past decisions. And the game becomes about understanding that system and playing around it. A roguelike about weaving the narrative that you want, They don't even know all the things that can happen because they haven't needed to hand craft everything like traditional choice & consequence systems require. I'm very excited to try this. its very different.
The more i hear about this the game the more it sounds at a roguelike with one of those decision maps FTL style, some random modifiers to the rooms with some possibilities appearing/disappearing depending on where you are in the map and a Hades style story progression.
@@blackmanwithcomputer So what Ken is saying is that the game will rely on procedural generation and specific tilesets/events will only be accessible via specific narrative choices? This sounds...underwhelming.
@@Nico78Not imho, something like this: First room, take left: enemies from now on wear red, take right, enemies from now on wear Blue Second room, take left banners in some levels are yellow, take right and they are orange Third room, take left and the floors are sort of broken, take right and they are polished marble and so on, little cosmetic changes that add up, making the game look different. And yes, it sounds pretty meh.
@@Nico78Not Maybe? He's definitely using simple examples to explain. Why don't you go check out SkillUp's podcast episode where he goes in detail about his session. I may be wrong, but it also sounded like the sim elements are stronger here
I think what Judas was going for allows for more possible endings than the traditional methods. They are going for a system that's hard to get started but once it starts to work, it can pump out a lot more paths than a traditional system could.
Are they saying the entire story will change based on decisions made? Like the entire story might shift from being about escaping to trying to conquer the city to helping someone else assume control, just based on the decisions you make, which will then change the gameplay loop throughout the whole story? That could be cool, but somehow I doubt it
Procedural generation works for basic environments. Elden Ring used it to create the base map before an actual person went through and touched it up and added worthwhile details that only a person can do. It cant be used as a cruch for massive gameplay changes like this guy wants. Otherwise your game would be done by now and you could give me a straight forward answer as to what your game is.
It sounds like procedural generation for quest outcomes rather than the actual level design. The difference between his idea and how traditional rpgs are made is once you have the infrastructure made you can just replicate things like baulders gate 3 did without the hand crafted effort put into it.
This is mi interpretation: It's not only big plot changes also subtle ones, that weren't crafted but instead put together by small actions you decided to make, it's not just about making a decision and it has consequences, like you mentioned with triss and yennefer, i believe what he is trying to accomplish it's more on a granular level, every small action not just decision shapes a lot of little things of the experience, imagine your every move changed how every aspect of the game perceives you, not just some things but everything could change. In a way it makes me think like an ai was generating your game looking at your every input. This doesn't mean it will be a great experience, this would need to be a superb and robust system, it'll more than likely make a lot of mistakes, even if it doesn't you could end up with a pretty bad experience, i see it as a sort of evolution of the rpg way of making decisions matter, but it's really complex and maybe it wouldn't be fun. PD: sorry if it's redacted poorly, my english it's pretty meh
I think it’s one of those things where u just think ur thing is genius because I’ve seen the entire thing from scratch. It’s like at my job, for IT the team I’m in we’ve reconfigured scanners etc. and there are time (for entertainment purposes) where we over explain things to the people to make it seem more complex then what it is. That’s kindve what it seems he is doing, but idk it could be ground breaking tho
I think the lego part means that quests dont fail dependent on choices, it changes things continually. Which is interesting but i dont see how that can happen and still be decent quality in the writing department. Like a mox of radient questing and precedual generation for the story means the outcomes cant be that vastly differnrt
as long as the gameplay is not boring trash, i'll take whatever inspired artpiece the bioshock guy has been cooking up maybe. i just don't want the game to feel like those "narrative legos" are just small details that don't lead up to a significant change in the story from those decisions.
@@heroicgangster9981 because I though well kinda guessed that cuz u watchin a video bout ken Levines latest game then i assumed u was either a fan of bioshock or system shock and I bought my ps5 physical copy Tuesday and it’s genuinely blown me away bro! it’s my favourite shock game now (I’ve played them all apart from system shock 2 will buy enhanced edition day 1 if I can ) by far an it’s my second favourite immersive sim after prey 2017 but the combat and guns and the options available for that combat are way better than prey and the atmosphere is way darker than prey way more horror vibes and also the gore system is really fun and brutal an it’s only 35 pound in the uk I’m presuming similar price point in us cuz I’m assuming your Americans can cuz most people on ere I talk to are so yeah basically it’s the best game I’ve played since re4 remake but I prefer this cuz I prefer sci fi either way my friend if u like any of the shock games or prey or survival horror u will LOVE system shock remake also really long game been on it 20 hours just finished 3rd level there’s 10 levels anyways I’m rambling but grab ya self system shock remake bro it’s fucking legit amazing legit game of the year contender ps if u do buy it turn on waypoints I was doin fine till the end of 2nd level then really regretted no turning mission difficulty to 1 aka the easiest because it’s became clear that u can do about 80% of the game just by yaself but a certain number of actions there’s no way u can work out alone so yeah it gives u way points on ya mini map so u can avoid frustration cuz I spend about two to three hours trying to complete puzzles and find out what to do on my own the had to use a guide don’t stress bout puzzle either turn it down to easiest plus u can find mind proves that auto win the puzzles but 90% of puzzles are optional so u can basically mind probe ya way they mission critical puzzles but they are usually way easier than the optional puzzles anyways I hope u grab it and I hope u enjoy it like I have ps the imm sim aspects are mainly combat based giving I nearly u limited items weapons environment hazards and combinations along wiv oerks upgrades and fun drugs that do fun shit like bullet time but also have fun side effects like flashbacks of the og system shock sprites an pixelated enemies fron the 1994 game the other 20% of the game is exploration puzzle solving and cyberspace which is truly as fuck if ya stoned and high when ya enter cyberspace I didn’t like it at first but now I find it’s an enjoyable 5 minute pallet clenser an I really like the music in cyberspace lol
It's true, all that matters is how the player perceives the experience, not what's happening behind the scenes. I'm a big Bioshock/Levine fan, but even I'll admit Ken likes to overcomplicate things. You could create a road made of asphalt, that took one day to create, or a road made of the rarest materials in the world, that took years to create, if the experience for the person walking down the road is the same, what does it matter? But who knows, maybe what he's created will be something mind-blowing, I do think he's capable of it.
I think this is more akin to Remnant. 2's system but dialing the procedural aspect up to 11. This could go out both ways but the guy made Bioshock so I'm a little hopeful.
What I understand is that it is not new on the end goal, is new on how he gets there, and in theory there could be more variety than what’s already out there
I’m very excited, love Ken Levine, and also love Luke taking him to task. Can’t get enough. It’s really funny and relevant. I also didn’t finish Infinite. The first hour was so exciting though!
My theory is that RPGs/narrative choice games have a defined story with variables in them. This might be that the whole story itself is variable? You can make the story as simple or grand as you prefer. But I'm sceptical on how much they could pull that off. Whenever games have big ambitions they have as big of a chance to fail. Or worse, it's just a narrative choice game and Ken is failing to see that his idea is not that novel as he thought it to be. Kinda like Death Stranding as you mentioned.
so it's a bit like those old adventure RPG books where you'd read a page that's explaining what's going on and then further down the page it gives you actions that you can take according to what you just read and whatever you chose it tells you to skip to a certain page with the outcome of what you chose and the story continues with the results of your actions 🤔
I wish this guy was given hard hitting questions. Like why should i believe a word you say without any video proof. Why should i believe your 10 year project isnt gonna be like most games stuck in development hell.
Honestly, the first immediate issue/problem I had upon seeing Judas was the same as Prey (2017)... YOU'RE NOT SYSTEM SHOCK, AND YOU WON'T BE SYSTEM SHOCK 😅 Now granted, Ken Levine had a huge role in the making of System Shock 2 (Lead design, writing dialogue, story, voiceovers) but the thing is nothing will ever compare, and the whole Sci-Fi/Space Station type setting can't be used since SS2 is already THE GOAT imo and they all just feel like/come off as SS2 ripoffs because of it. Now that being said we are also getting System Shock 2 Enhanced Edition from Nightdive Studios soon (just a straight up Kex Engine port with the typical 10/10 enhancements, plus all the most loved community made Patches/Mods and better Co-Op Mode integration added in) so I'll just play that instead personally 🤷♂️
When he describes how Bioshock Infinite had no "way to heal" itself and how the player in Bioshock 1 could not screw Atlas and side with Ryan I think it kind of hints at what he wants. To take Fallout New Vegas as an example, a game with multiple competing factions, the player could side with any one faction and gain infamy against the other. At the midpoint of the story the game gives the player carte blanche to reconcile the relationships and "choose" their faction for the ending. But even then the player could still betray that trust and continue to act against that faction. For example, the player could kill the respective faction leader, after which that faction would be irreconcilable. It could not "heal" that story branch beyond that point. But what if it could. What if all the story beats were procedurally dropped in a random order. So that the player always needs a way to return to faction X. What if the player, to stay with F:NV, kills the NCR President. But it happened early in the random story order, so the game still needs to "heal" that NCR story branch to prevent it being shut off early. No matter what the player does, there is always an olive branch. At least until the player picks the ending on the Endingtron 3000. Like yeah, like Luke says its probably going to Lego brick assemble some dialogue about it. But it also sounds very Bethesda-esque milquetoast, where the game is afraid of letting the player shut content off by siding with something they like and so every avenue has to be open at all times.
To me this sound like Gearbox saying there are 16 Quadrillion guns in a Borderlands game. They're not wrong, but two of those guns might only differ in .5 seconds of reload speed and a damage point. In reality, you and up with one or two dozens of different models, which mostly differ in stats and not function, and the different variants of those models only differ in stats. When this guy talks about rooms having different decoration I'm getting the feeling that it will be similar. That said, he did spend 10 years working on it, so maybe he did manage to come up with something cool.
My theory is that different from a branching story game like Detroit, this one would have way more choices that could change everything on your playthrough something that cannot be done on hand like Detroit or BG3... but we will only find out if is something like this when the game releases, i'm excited for it either way
The hook might just be that the new way of doing the same old thing is a base for new technologies to keep Building on how to make rpgs. Because It seems maybe we have ran into a ceiling with making rpgs the old way. Idk just imo
i think he’s just trying to explain that he’s trying to make the next generation rpg system unlike a lot of rpgs that use that still follow the basic tree-like system. A lot of the most open rpgs don’t have much dialogue or use text boxes so if this model can make that sorta stuff work then fair play i’m excited. just remember never pre order n wait until u can actually see what the game is before u buy it
i wonder how it will compare to devil survivor 1. because that game handles replayable choices in an engaging way as your choices lead to multiple possible storylines depending on the characters you engage with. i think the bioshock dude could benefit from making a game with multiple characters to side with based on their story themes
im so skeptical and the bar is do ridiculously low that in my mind the game is gonna flop and or fall way short. every time a dev like this comes around the game almost always fails miserably.
It sounds like a almost ai like system where they feed it information or dialogue or textures or whatever and allows the system to decide how to use it based on the players choices. Basically it seems like it allows them to put significantly more options then a typical rpg due to the fact that they dont have to think of a potential path that the player would go down because the system does that for them. It sounds a little to close to ai gaming for me which is probably why he always describes it in that weird way because they dont want negative press due to how ai is viewed by the public.
This sounds procedural, building sets of things to then have the system to take and stack is pretty similar to procedural levels. This also just sounds like artsy talk to sound cooler than how it is. And personally I'm done with the lack of true narrative in a lot of games recently I would rather have a solid linear game than an aimless, shallow procedural/"lego" game.
I agree completely but in Ken's defense. It's not really his fault. He'said a couple of things about it and then everybody always asks him about it, so he has to explain himself.
Levine's a smart guy, but I have a feeling he got married to this idea of "Lego narrative" and got caught up with the notion that it's something new, but has found over the past decade that it's not all that special -- just a special name. For it to be truly Lego-like, it would be a dynamic story with different endings; in other words, some super-smart AI would have to be constructing the story to match whatever narrative directions taken by the player. It's a good idea, but there's no AI that can yet understand assets and dialog well enough to construct a coherent story in a computer game.
Honestly, I get the feeling that Levine is just talking about limited branching choices/consequences-- and it's novel to him because his games have typically been very linear. 'Judas' may revolutionize narrative gameplay in the same sense that 'Suicide Squad' revolutionized gunplay.
Maybe I’m in the minority, but just having another game in the gameplay style of bioshock is enough for me. The story I think will play out as you go along.
Imagine if the game chooses different stuff based on your skills rather than only using your choices. Let's say your fighting skills are not that good, and the game leads you to more crafting or, I don't know, some other ways. Like adopting the gameplay and story to your needs and capabilities.
So maybe the difference is that his game is non-scripted AI induced, as opposed to traditional RPG script-written and organised? Hmm - and he's sounding rather vague because he's not sure himself about the concept?
The benefit would be massive replayability with multiple outcomes. Each playthrough being unique with its on story as opposed to only a handful of narrative pathways. And it incorporates the Nemesis system from what I've read, which was a driving inspiration during development. Either way, we are left with an intriguing idea in a universe inspired by awesome environment story telling.
The impression i get is Bioshock with more choices, that affect routes you take through the levels, dialogue from npc's etc. Hopefully this leads to some meaningful replay value, where each playthrough feels unique.
i wonder how it can compare to other branching narrative games. devil survivor 1 is one of the most ambitious games that are fun because your choices lead to multiple endings based on the character you connected with the most.
I love all 3 bioshocks and I'm dumb af but I can't understand the difference between rpgs like cyberpunk baldur's gate or hell even something like wolf among us ? Again I'm very stupid but he sounds really full of himself
kojima was heavily influenced by the stalker franchise when he made death stranding i think americans r misinterpreting his words of what he meant when he claimed to make a new genre he was referring to stalker and how it compares to death stranding
Ken Levine I think wants to try and differentiate this game from bioshock by making this “Lego narrative” thing. All in all I don’t think the gamer at the end will recognize any difference, very small if any. It’s very Peter moleneux bullshit sandwich.
People forgot how big of a disappointment infinite was and how much this guy talked it up. The reason the game was such a disappointment was because he wouldn’t stop talking. Infinite was one of the first games to straight up lie to the consumer. From the teaser trailer to days before launch. I’m sorry, he’s not the guy, he had a large part in the birth of Bioshock but didn’t make it or is the reason for bioshock’s success. That game was a result of a passionate team. He was one, of many influential team members. The gaming industry wants their Scorsese, their Christopher Nolan’s, but these guys aren’t jt. He isn’t taking part in the art he’s taking part in the sale of the product. He will be another Cliffy, or live up to be an insufferable asshole like Neil Druckmann. Stop giving these guys attention start paying your devs more.
A rogue-lite, Quantic Dream game written like a BioShock game with compelling combat and some sim mechanics that affects both gameplay and character interactions sounds pretty fucking amazing. I don't get what the issue is. Pretty sure that's a new thing, tho made with familiar pieces. Same with how Death Stranding was a FedEx simulator, but on a massive scale with physics.
I´m gonna repost the same reply I wrote on your other Judas video regarding your confusion about how is this any different to a classic RPG Luke, I believe this is the main distinction: This is different than just normal RPG with choices, because this isn´t scripted by the devs- it´s supposed to be system which makes different encounters, story beats, music and gameplay completely individual to each player. That´s why he´s pushing that term Narrative Lego. You basically understood it and sumed it up in this video pretty well, so I´m not completely sure what´s still so confusing about it, we´ll just have to wait and see if and how well it works when the game releases.
@@arthurchen6464 Point is- it´s gonna feel very different each playthrough way beyond the capabilities of devs able to just create multiple paths in RPG. That´s the point of it I feel like.
@@CZJames20 That's a good point. Procedural generation will always trump scripted content in terms of variety. The issue is to make it feel fluid and natural and meaningful, which if they pull off, will be a huge difference.
So u guys have never played around with action figures? Doesnt minecraft and Roblox / any survival game for that matter have the same structure as what Judas is going for? Albeit a different execution style that's all. They are basically doing what programmers call modules in programming and creating story blocks similar to lego set / diorama where the player tells their story / narrative similar to D&D. And Didnt u clowns like BG3 or something and sandbox aspect of it but ur brains is having trouble grasping the concept of lego style narrative block? Wow that's amazing when D&D style game are so BS with their rules every campaign , they are even more confusing than what Judas is trying to do.
Listening to him trying to explain it just makes me think Ken just wants to make a Lego game.
You say that the scripted RPG approach is more vague, but it's the opposite it's more detailed because each route has been carefully crafted by the devs, each choice is an intended experience. Whereas a system that just stitches dialogue lines together will be the one who's more vague, and I don't see how you could create a deep and detailed story with such a random system. It seems like the worst of both worlds for so little advantages... I hope i'm wrong and it turns out to be amazing and really innovative, but for now i have so many doubts and questions
No what he's saying is it's a rogue like narrative. So just like a rogue like you'll get random procedural story bits. So just like a rogue like, the story like the levels will be randomly slapped together.
Watch Ken Levine’s 2014 GDC talk called “Narrative Legos.” When he has a whole hour to himself and slides to explain it’s a lot more understandable. What he’s describing is not like a traditional RPG where your choices are mostly binary (with a few exceptions) where you have to satisfy certain conditions or raise an NPCs affinity level to a certain point in order to unlock an outcome. He’s describing something that’s more so based on what the player character does at certain times and how often they repeat the same actions; there is more of an ebb and flow to the PC’s decisions and NPC affinity which is actually atypical to most RPGs believe it or not. You can make the argument that he’s not doing anything that Baldur’s Gate 3 or other Bioware games haven’t already done but what he means is the implementation and variety of outcomes may be much more extensive relative to his Judas game.
when the studio lead or lead dev struggles to define what their game is or what its vision is. thats probably one of the worst red flags imaginable. you generally see that level of confusion and lack of understanding bleed heavily into the games design.
100%
I think that this system will make more sense when the game comes out. I think he's trying something new and it's hard to understand without experienceing it first hand.
While I support this project for sure, of course it'll make more sense when we can play it dude lol
The way you explained the pathways and blocks was genius. You did 100% better explaining the concept than Levine did himself. Best gaming channel by far 🙌😎
I think you’ll definitely understand better when you play it. I get a pretty good idea of it but it’s a pretty foundational thing just how the actual system has been built.
It’s like an opportunity simulator with various consequences continuously adding onto each other. The characters have the “potential” to react in a given number of ways that then opens up for more ways to react and it continuously builds simply based on what you choose to do. It never has a plan, it only has many, many potentials of what can happen in any given situation and your experience will be the aggregation of all you did and have ultimately brought upon yourself.
I'm having the same feeling I had when Starfield's procedural locations were revealed.
I´m not, Bethesda promised 1000 planets- of course it´s gonna be boring. This is I feel pretty unique way to make still smaller scope story driven experiences with considerable amount of variables to make each run interesting, but still maintain that quality of storytelling and environments from linear games. Of course I can be wrong, but I think this has much more of a potential than Starfield ever had.
@@CZJames20no offense but i think bringing down your expectations might be a good idea. He doesnt really answer questions, he doesnt have any proof, and he feels like a todd howard type of sweet talker. If he showed up with a sequence from the game to show off his idea then i could get excited. Until then skepticially anticipation it is.
No way, I still believe in Levine
@@Tomberculosis-q1i I don´t really have a reason to doubt him as the aforementioned Todd Howard, I´m not expecting second coming but I think he and his team will deliver very good game.
Healthy skepticism is always good. But he’s not talking in riddles he’s simply sayin he wants the game to be reactive to the players actions. He gave an example like Elizabeth leaving booker cuz he was too violent in infinite. Now how they will go about it is definitely up in the air and if the game will truly be that unique player driven odyssey who knows. But this isn’t the comparable to Todd Howard situation I think and still have faith in Levine as he truly seems dedicated to his craft. In top of that his last game was infinite which was a postive reviewed game compared to bgs last game being fallout 76 coming into star field
This, this is part of why we get more expensive games. We have 2 things that do the same thing, one is easier to do and probably more cost effective, and the other is complicated and probably extremely expensive to develop, but they both do essentially the same thing.
Hes describing a system that is dynmaic. In games with scripted quest lines (most of them) they can only flow in the direction that the developers intend it to. Even in an RPG the all the senerios have to all be accounted for. every potential NPC death has to have some script that will change the flow of quests for example. That could mean the quest ends, a different NPC takes their place, or maybe the game just ends lol.
Ken seems to be describing a system that is focusing on free flow/ that no matter what choices the player makes they have some scenario that the game will dynamically fill based on your past decisions. And the game becomes about understanding that system and playing around it. A roguelike about weaving the narrative that you want, They don't even know all the things that can happen because they haven't needed to hand craft everything like traditional choice & consequence systems require. I'm very excited to try this. its very different.
He's talking about "teaching the system how to build"....AKA Artificial Intelligence. Which always goes SO WELL for narratives in games
Giving off strong Peter Molyneux energy
This is exactly what I was about to say! And given the downward path of the Bioshock games, I'm not exactly excited about this.
The more i hear about this the game the more it sounds at a roguelike with one of those decision maps FTL style, some random modifiers to the rooms with some possibilities appearing/disappearing depending on where you are in the map and a Hades style story progression.
It is a rogue-like. SkillUp confirmed it when he got to play it.
@@blackmanwithcomputer So what Ken is saying is that the game will rely on procedural generation and specific tilesets/events will only be accessible via specific narrative choices?
This sounds...underwhelming.
@@Nico78Not imho, something like this:
First room, take left: enemies from now on wear red, take right, enemies from now on wear Blue
Second room, take left banners in some levels are yellow, take right and they are orange
Third room, take left and the floors are sort of broken, take right and they are polished marble
and so on, little cosmetic changes that add up, making the game look different.
And yes, it sounds pretty meh.
@@Nico78Not Maybe? He's definitely using simple examples to explain. Why don't you go check out SkillUp's podcast episode where he goes in detail about his session. I may be wrong, but it also sounded like the sim elements are stronger here
@@JokerJK-jg1gi Sounds pretty interesting actually, it will work well as rogue-like.
I think what Judas was going for allows for more possible endings than the traditional methods. They are going for a system that's hard to get started but once it starts to work, it can pump out a lot more paths than a traditional system could.
"Visualize butterfly effect"
that's quite a term to describe Visual novel kind of game
Are they saying the entire story will change based on decisions made? Like the entire story might shift from being about escaping to trying to conquer the city to helping someone else assume control, just based on the decisions you make, which will then change the gameplay loop throughout the whole story? That could be cool, but somehow I doubt it
He was holding all in that pressure of added microtransactions that will be added a month later after release 😂
Omg I can see it now lego packs ranging from 10 to 40 dollars lol
Procedural generation works for basic environments. Elden Ring used it to create the base map before an actual person went through and touched it up and added worthwhile details that only a person can do. It cant be used as a cruch for massive gameplay changes like this guy wants. Otherwise your game would be done by now and you could give me a straight forward answer as to what your game is.
I'm looking forward to seeing more of this game
The amount of variety. I guess they want to react to every single tiny bit of detail
It sounds like procedural generation for quest outcomes rather than the actual level design. The difference between his idea and how traditional rpgs are made is once you have the infrastructure made you can just replicate things like baulders gate 3 did without the hand crafted effort put into it.
This is mi interpretation:
It's not only big plot changes also subtle ones, that weren't crafted but instead put together by small actions you decided to make, it's not just about making a decision and it has consequences, like you mentioned with triss and yennefer, i believe what he is trying to accomplish it's more on a granular level, every small action not just decision shapes a lot of little things of the experience, imagine your every move changed how every aspect of the game perceives you, not just some things but everything could change. In a way it makes me think like an ai was generating your game looking at your every input.
This doesn't mean it will be a great experience, this would need to be a superb and robust system, it'll more than likely make a lot of mistakes, even if it doesn't you could end up with a pretty bad experience, i see it as a sort of evolution of the rpg way of making decisions matter, but it's really complex and maybe it wouldn't be fun.
PD: sorry if it's redacted poorly, my english it's pretty meh
I think it’s one of those things where u just think ur thing is genius because I’ve seen the entire thing from scratch. It’s like at my job, for IT the team I’m in we’ve reconfigured scanners etc. and there are time (for entertainment purposes) where we over explain things to the people to make it seem more complex then what it is. That’s kindve what it seems he is doing, but idk it could be ground breaking tho
Respect to Luke for daring to question the almighty perfect one ken Levine
Wow, he is speaking some major word salad in this.
I think the lego part means that quests dont fail dependent on choices, it changes things continually. Which is interesting but i dont see how that can happen and still be decent quality in the writing department. Like a mox of radient questing and precedual generation for the story means the outcomes cant be that vastly differnrt
as long as the gameplay is not boring trash, i'll take whatever inspired artpiece the bioshock guy has been cooking up maybe. i just don't want the game to feel like those "narrative legos" are just small details that don't lead up to a significant change in the story from those decisions.
Have u tried system shock remake ?
@@sumstuff6956 not yet! but heard it's a good game! why are you asking that? ^O^
@@heroicgangster9981 because I though well kinda guessed that cuz u watchin a video bout ken Levines latest game then i assumed u was either a fan of bioshock or system shock and I bought my ps5 physical copy Tuesday and it’s genuinely blown me away bro! it’s my favourite shock game now (I’ve played them all apart from system shock 2 will buy enhanced edition day 1 if I can ) by far an it’s my second favourite immersive sim after prey 2017 but the combat and guns and the options available for that combat are way better than prey and the atmosphere is way darker than prey way more horror vibes and also the gore system is really fun and brutal an it’s only 35 pound in the uk I’m presuming similar price point in us cuz I’m assuming your Americans can cuz most people on ere I talk to are so yeah basically it’s the best game I’ve played since re4 remake but I prefer this cuz I prefer sci fi either way my friend if u like any of the shock games or prey or survival horror u will LOVE system shock remake also really long game been on it 20 hours just finished 3rd level there’s 10 levels anyways I’m rambling but grab ya self system shock remake bro it’s fucking legit amazing legit game of the year contender ps if u do buy it turn on waypoints I was doin fine till the end of 2nd level then really regretted no turning mission difficulty to 1 aka the easiest because it’s became clear that u can do about 80% of the game just by yaself but a certain number of actions there’s no way u can work out alone so yeah it gives u way points on ya mini map so u can avoid frustration cuz I spend about two to three hours trying to complete puzzles and find out what to do on my own the had to use a guide don’t stress bout puzzle either turn it down to easiest plus u can find mind proves that auto win the puzzles but 90% of puzzles are optional so u can basically mind probe ya way they mission critical puzzles but they are usually way easier than the optional puzzles anyways I hope u grab it and I hope u enjoy it like I have ps the imm sim aspects are mainly combat based giving I nearly u limited items weapons environment hazards and combinations along wiv oerks upgrades and fun drugs that do fun shit like bullet time but also have fun side effects like flashbacks of the og system shock sprites an pixelated enemies fron the 1994 game the other 20% of the game is exploration puzzle solving and cyberspace which is truly as fuck if ya stoned and high when ya enter cyberspace I didn’t like it at first but now I find it’s an enjoyable 5 minute pallet clenser an I really like the music in cyberspace lol
It's true, all that matters is how the player perceives the experience, not what's happening behind the scenes. I'm a big Bioshock/Levine fan, but even I'll admit Ken likes to overcomplicate things. You could create a road made of asphalt, that took one day to create, or a road made of the rarest materials in the world, that took years to create, if the experience for the person walking down the road is the same, what does it matter? But who knows, maybe what he's created will be something mind-blowing, I do think he's capable of it.
Love the monstrosities that turn up on lukes whiteboard
I think this is more akin to Remnant. 2's system but dialing the procedural aspect up to 11. This could go out both ways but the guy made Bioshock so I'm a little hopeful.
I mean, if someone told me that Bioshock's story would be told in audio logs back in the day I'd go nuts. So who knows.
I get happy every time Luke brings out MS Paint.
I for one am extremely glad they're not spilling the tea on Judas. Ken Levine is one of few names that can instantly ensure a compelling narrative
What I understand is that it is not new on the end goal, is new on how he gets there, and in theory there could be more variety than what’s already out there
I’m very excited, love Ken Levine, and also love Luke taking him to task. Can’t get enough. It’s really funny and relevant. I also didn’t finish Infinite. The first hour was so exciting though!
My theory is that RPGs/narrative choice games have a defined story with variables in them. This might be that the whole story itself is variable? You can make the story as simple or grand as you prefer. But I'm sceptical on how much they could pull that off. Whenever games have big ambitions they have as big of a chance to fail. Or worse, it's just a narrative choice game and Ken is failing to see that his idea is not that novel as he thought it to be. Kinda like Death Stranding as you mentioned.
For me it feels like, they created side quests 💀 (and to be clear. He probably doesn't want to spoiler stuff if there's actually something to spoil)
so it's a bit like those old adventure RPG books where you'd read a page that's explaining what's going on and then further down the page it gives you actions that you can take according to what you just read and whatever you chose it tells you to skip to a certain page with the outcome of what you chose and the story continues with the results of your actions 🤔
sounds like RNG is woven into the story path, and AI generates dialogue based on the situation.
I wish this guy was given hard hitting questions. Like why should i believe a word you say without any video proof. Why should i believe your 10 year project isnt gonna be like most games stuck in development hell.
Honestly, the first immediate issue/problem I had upon seeing Judas was the same as Prey (2017)... YOU'RE NOT SYSTEM SHOCK, AND YOU WON'T BE SYSTEM SHOCK 😅
Now granted, Ken Levine had a huge role in the making of System Shock 2 (Lead design, writing dialogue, story, voiceovers) but the thing is nothing will ever compare, and the whole Sci-Fi/Space Station type setting can't be used since SS2 is already THE GOAT imo and they all just feel like/come off as SS2 ripoffs because of it.
Now that being said we are also getting System Shock 2 Enhanced Edition from Nightdive Studios soon (just a straight up Kex Engine port with the typical 10/10 enhancements, plus all the most loved community made Patches/Mods and better Co-Op Mode integration added in) so I'll just play that instead personally 🤷♂️
When he describes how Bioshock Infinite had no "way to heal" itself and how the player in Bioshock 1 could not screw Atlas and side with Ryan I think it kind of hints at what he wants.
To take Fallout New Vegas as an example, a game with multiple competing factions, the player could side with any one faction and gain infamy against the other. At the midpoint of the story the game gives the player carte blanche to reconcile the relationships and "choose" their faction for the ending. But even then the player could still betray that trust and continue to act against that faction. For example, the player could kill the respective faction leader, after which that faction would be irreconcilable. It could not "heal" that story branch beyond that point.
But what if it could. What if all the story beats were procedurally dropped in a random order. So that the player always needs a way to return to faction X. What if the player, to stay with F:NV, kills the NCR President. But it happened early in the random story order, so the game still needs to "heal" that NCR story branch to prevent it being shut off early. No matter what the player does, there is always an olive branch. At least until the player picks the ending on the Endingtron 3000.
Like yeah, like Luke says its probably going to Lego brick assemble some dialogue about it. But it also sounds very Bethesda-esque milquetoast, where the game is afraid of letting the player shut content off by siding with something they like and so every avenue has to be open at all times.
To me this sound like Gearbox saying there are 16 Quadrillion guns in a Borderlands game. They're not wrong, but two of those guns might only differ in .5 seconds of reload speed and a damage point. In reality, you and up with one or two dozens of different models, which mostly differ in stats and not function, and the different variants of those models only differ in stats. When this guy talks about rooms having different decoration I'm getting the feeling that it will be similar. That said, he did spend 10 years working on it, so maybe he did manage to come up with something cool.
My theory is that different from a branching story game like Detroit, this one would have way more choices that could change everything on your playthrough something that cannot be done on hand like Detroit or BG3... but we will only find out if is something like this when the game releases, i'm excited for it either way
The hook might just be that the new way of doing the same old thing is a base for new technologies to keep
Building on how to make rpgs. Because It seems maybe we have ran into a ceiling with making rpgs the old way. Idk just imo
"narrative lego" probably only works with advanced AI. doubt programmers have time to make up all the scenarios described
With Legos you can build anything right?
However typically, we buy a "Lego Set" and we end up building a single, extremely specific, thing.
Lego. The plural of Lego is Lego, not Legos
@@Dipper1459 Patronizing! Nice!
@@jhank0cean but true
i think he’s just trying to explain that he’s trying to make the next generation rpg system unlike a lot of rpgs that use that still follow the basic tree-like system.
A lot of the most open rpgs don’t have much dialogue or use text boxes so if this model can make that sorta stuff work then fair play i’m excited.
just remember never pre order n wait until u can actually see what the game is before u buy it
i wonder how it will compare to devil survivor 1. because that game handles replayable choices in an engaging way as your choices lead to multiple possible storylines depending on the characters you engage with. i think the bioshock dude could benefit from making a game with multiple characters to side with based on their story themes
im so skeptical and the bar is do ridiculously low that in my mind the game is gonna flop and or fall way short. every time a dev like this comes around the game almost always fails miserably.
Nope
It sounds like a almost ai like system where they feed it information or dialogue or textures or whatever and allows the system to decide how to use it based on the players choices. Basically it seems like it allows them to put significantly more options then a typical rpg due to the fact that they dont have to think of a potential path that the player would go down because the system does that for them. It sounds a little to close to ai gaming for me which is probably why he always describes it in that weird way because they dont want negative press due to how ai is viewed by the public.
This sounds procedural, building sets of things to then have the system to take and stack is pretty similar to procedural levels. This also just sounds like artsy talk to sound cooler than how it is. And personally I'm done with the lack of true narrative in a lot of games recently I would rather have a solid linear game than an aimless, shallow procedural/"lego" game.
It sound like the nemesis system for the world or story
I agree completely but in Ken's defense. It's not really his fault. He'said a couple of things about it and then everybody always asks him about it, so he has to explain himself.
Rng storylines?
This video reminded me that System Shock just came out for Xbox, thanks 👍
Levine's a smart guy, but I have a feeling he got married to this idea of "Lego narrative" and got caught up with the notion that it's something new, but has found over the past decade that it's not all that special -- just a special name. For it to be truly Lego-like, it would be a dynamic story with different endings; in other words, some super-smart AI would have to be constructing the story to match whatever narrative directions taken by the player. It's a good idea, but there's no AI that can yet understand assets and dialog well enough to construct a coherent story in a computer game.
Honestly, I get the feeling that Levine is just talking about limited branching choices/consequences-- and it's novel to him because his games have typically been very linear. 'Judas' may revolutionize narrative gameplay in the same sense that 'Suicide Squad' revolutionized gunplay.
WHat a weird marketing push from Ken
Maybe I’m in the minority, but just having another game in the gameplay style of bioshock is enough for me. The story I think will play out as you go along.
Lego. The plural of Lego is Lego. Not Legos
Imagine if the game chooses different stuff based on your skills rather than only using your choices. Let's say your fighting skills are not that good, and the game leads you to more crafting or, I don't know, some other ways. Like adopting the gameplay and story to your needs and capabilities.
So maybe the difference is that his game is non-scripted AI induced, as opposed to traditional RPG script-written and organised? Hmm - and he's sounding rather vague because he's not sure himself about the concept?
The benefit would be massive replayability with multiple outcomes. Each playthrough being unique with its on story as opposed to only a handful of narrative pathways. And it incorporates the Nemesis system from what I've read, which was a driving inspiration during development. Either way, we are left with an intriguing idea in a universe inspired by awesome environment story telling.
It incorporates a similar system to Nemesis, it's not quite the same
Doesn't sound all that complicated?
It's not at all, honestly the first branching is much worse and it doesn't even work like that in RPGs.
The impression i get is Bioshock with more choices, that affect routes you take through the levels, dialogue from npc's etc.
Hopefully this leads to some meaningful replay value, where each playthrough feels unique.
It's also a rogue-lite. So lots a replay value.
i wonder how it can compare to other branching narrative games. devil survivor 1 is one of the most ambitious games that are fun because your choices lead to multiple endings based on the character you connected with the most.
PROCEDURAL...
yeah sure.. push the QA testing wholly on the shoulders of A.I.. thats gonna go over really damn well..
Game that did this better beyond usual CYOA:
Galatea
Versu
Façade
Sunken London
Tokimeki memorial
Princess maker series
Yandere simulator
Isn’t it just how BG3 works?
Luke just reach the guy and make a video with him to save us from this mysterious misery? :)
He don't know what he's talking about.
I love all 3 bioshocks and I'm dumb af but I can't understand the difference between rpgs like cyberpunk baldur's gate or hell even something like wolf among us ? Again I'm very stupid but he sounds really full of himself
I think your being too skeptical, he explained it pretty well on 3 diffrent podcasts
kojima was heavily influenced by the stalker franchise when he made death stranding i think americans r misinterpreting his words of what he meant when he claimed to make a new genre he was referring to stalker and how it compares to death stranding
Ken Levine I think wants to try and differentiate this game from bioshock by making this “Lego narrative” thing. All in all I don’t think the gamer at the end will recognize any difference, very small if any. It’s very Peter moleneux bullshit sandwich.
Sounds like a Peter Molyneux/Sean Murray levels of bullshit. This just sounds way too ambitious.
are you ever not negative and skeptical?
This is just procedural modular ... so dumb, it's "random procedural bullshit"
You can't future interviews if you push certain questions because content
People forgot how big of a disappointment infinite was and how much this guy talked it up. The reason the game was such a disappointment was because he wouldn’t stop talking.
Infinite was one of the first games to straight up lie to the consumer. From the teaser trailer to days before launch.
I’m sorry, he’s not the guy, he had a large part in the birth of Bioshock but didn’t make it or is the reason for bioshock’s success. That game was a result of a passionate team. He was one, of many influential team members.
The gaming industry wants their Scorsese, their Christopher Nolan’s, but these guys aren’t jt. He isn’t taking part in the art he’s taking part in the sale of the product.
He will be another Cliffy, or live up to be an insufferable asshole like Neil Druckmann. Stop giving these guys attention start paying your devs more.
He's basically talking about the first Deus Ex game that came out 25 years ago.
Fix what you broke sounds so lame
A rogue-lite, Quantic Dream game written like a BioShock game with compelling combat and some sim mechanics that affects both gameplay and character interactions sounds pretty fucking amazing. I don't get what the issue is.
Pretty sure that's a new thing, tho made with familiar pieces. Same with how Death Stranding was a FedEx simulator, but on a massive scale with physics.
I´m gonna repost the same reply I wrote on your other Judas video regarding your confusion about how is this any different to a classic RPG Luke, I believe this is the main distinction: This is different than just normal RPG with choices, because this isn´t scripted by the devs- it´s supposed to be system which makes different encounters, story beats, music and gameplay completely individual to each player.
That´s why he´s pushing that term Narrative Lego. You basically understood it and sumed it up in this video pretty well, so I´m not completely sure what´s still so confusing about it, we´ll just have to wait and see if and how well it works when the game releases.
He's confused about what the point is, since from the perspective of the user, it'll be identical to well crafted prescripted games.
@@arthurchen6464 Point is- it´s gonna feel very different each playthrough way beyond the capabilities of devs able to just create multiple paths in RPG. That´s the point of it I feel like.
@@CZJames20 That's a good point. Procedural generation will always trump scripted content in terms of variety. The issue is to make it feel fluid and natural and meaningful, which if they pull off, will be a huge difference.
@@arthurchen6464 Yep
@@arthurchen6464 100% the goal is a procedural story.
So u guys have never played around with action figures? Doesnt minecraft and Roblox / any survival game for that matter have the same structure as what Judas is going for? Albeit a different execution style that's all.
They are basically doing what programmers call modules in programming and creating story blocks similar to lego set / diorama where the player tells their story / narrative similar to D&D.
And Didnt u clowns like BG3 or something and sandbox aspect of it but ur brains is having trouble grasping the concept of lego style narrative block? Wow that's amazing when D&D style game are so BS with their rules every campaign , they are even more confusing than what Judas is trying to do.
1st?!
Death stranding was something new never played anything like it befire or since