Explaining the Definition of God to Jordan Peterson | Jonathan Pageau & Benjamin Boyce
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
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Art & Orthodoxy w Jonathan Pageau: • Art & Orthodoxy w Jona...
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_"Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. _*_For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords,_*_ the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe."_ - _Deuteronomy __10:16__-17_
When Jonathan said "I believe in Thor" I really felt that.
PS. I'm actually serious because of the way he describes it shows he means what he says. Thor is simply another principality with rightly imaged attributes. So belief in God along with the ontological hierarchy that undertows Him actually implies the existence of other gods, principalities, and angels. Without arbitrarily choosing one preferred god or debating about which god is the highest. Because God doesn't cast them away, He instead unites their virtues in his infinite love.
bravebeing There is one God. All others are His creations.
you need to be more careful in your speech. there is only ONE God. There are no "gods." What you are describing are *mere* principalities and angels - not God, who is not a being, principality and obviously not an angel.
@@drooskie9525 That is pure falsehood. God is not "a being" since God is existence itself.
You are limiting God, in the very technical sense by stating that he is "a being" and "a principality." Which goes against the very definition of God, who is limitless. God is not "beyond it." God is outside of any level, since God cannot be limited by being put on any level. God is that which levels are derived from and compared to and they all fall infinitely short, regardless of where they are in the level-hierarchy because God is not part of any hierarchy.
Kindly, you don't know what you're talking about since you're making gravely flawed metaphysical, philosophical and theological statements, which are completely contradictory to what God, by definition, and necessarily is.
@@drooskie9525 You are not sayin the same thing Jonathan Pageau says... You are saying what Jordan Peterson has said, which misses the point entirely about who God is and the metaphysics regarding him. Jonathan Pageau even points this out and exclaims that God is NOT a being nor is he a principality.
It is not limiting God to say that his nature is his existence, that God *IS.*
"...so, he definitely is a person."
When did I claim otherwise - that God is not a person? Furthermore, it'd be unwise of you to bring in the Holy Trinity in a discourse on metaphysics because you will likely make the mistake of confusing Christ's divine and human nature.
@@csongorarpad4670the Bible talks about lower case gods all the time, even referring to men as “gods” in this sense.
B.Boyce: "If you call something God, always realize that it's not." ... otherwise stated by the Taoists: "The Dao that can be named is not the everlasting Dao".
I like this translation which follows the Chinese more closely (allegedly): TAO called TAO Is not TAO
Also this beautiful passage by St Maximus the Confessor (On the Cosmic Mystery of Jesus Christ):
We are speechless before the sublime teaching about the Logos, for he cannot be expressed in words or conceived in thought. Although he is beyond being and nothing can participate in him in any way, nor is he any of the totality of things that can be known in relation to other things, nevertheless we affirm that the one Logos is many logoi and the many logoi are One. Because the One goes forth in goodness into individual being, creating and preserving them, the One is many. Moreover, the many are directed toward the One and are providentially guided in that direction. It is as though they were drawn to an all-powerful center that had built into it the beginnings of the lines that go out from it and that gathers them all together. In this way the many are one.
Christ can’t be called God then?
“Name above ALL names”
If you can name it, it’s not The Almighty Father.
@@itechnwrite "Our Father... hallowed is your name."
“Love is the unity and the multiplicity in harmony” 💥 🙏🤗
I definitely feel
Jordan in expressing the idea that your highest motivating force is your functional God...more of a description of the tendency to fall ..when you lose contact with unity ...you grab whatever is at hand...
I think I heard Fr Hopko say it, regarding theosis and partaking in God’s energies but not His essence - something along the lines of:
“It doesn’t mean becoming a fourth member of the Trinity.”
I love Jesus
"Even the most ignorant person on earth can experience union with God in perfect love by practicing contemplation in the beauty of humility." From "The Cloud of Unknowing"
This hair style and beard suites you so well
Interesting difference in approach.
I’d love to hear Jonathan Pageau talk about the SuperEgo, and how he thinks that idea links to religious and symbolic thinking.
Divine simplicity 👍👍
I don't mind Thor! Nice
Thanks for everything gentlemen.
God bless
Peace
God gives Himself. Since the beginning.
I would love to hear you speaking do Dr. Michael Heiser about Angels and Demons. He has written 2 interesting books one the subject and also some other intriguing ones about the the Nephilins.
The thumbnail is so cool
Good to see that you are a mystic, brother Pageau.
That is the True Christianity.
Blessed Love in Iyesus Kristos Haile Selassie I.
Christianity isn't all mysticism. It's also practical
@@MZRTMusic254 True. It is Practical Mysticism.
@@MZRTMusic254 I believe mysticism is necessarily practical, or else it is not authentic mysticism and is only vain fantasy.
While listening to this I was eating the most perfect strawberry 🍓 thank God for strawberries...
1:17 The Quality stimulus, but JBP is describing it, not explaining it. What's missing is Good. The stimulus is toward the Good. That explains it.
And no, being stimulated forward by the Good does not always produce good results. You could call it barriers, traps , blocks or even misinterpretation.
if Christ is in you, you are complete in him. you have arrived. nirvana. you have entered His sabbath. rest in him. you do not
have to go climb a ladder, or a mountain. Christ in you is sainthood. it is a free gift. adopted. boldly enter the throne room of
grace, by the blood of Jesus. not my righteousness, but his righteousness in me. there will be transformation. it is inevitable.
I take them letters to the Church's as being sent to the messenger at that church in each those cities. As I know that light at a church is only there if a messenger is there. And if the light of a church is removed so is that messenger removed.
"To define is to limit."
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
Phillipiams 3:10.
The difference between Christians and pagans is that Christ enables you to embrace the good in paganism, whereas pagans are automatically bereft of Christ.
And pagan gods fight amongst each other right haha
@David Chorak Everyone who is not a Christian.
@David Chorak The Latter, I suspect! And Extreme Prejudice against anyone outside 'Introspect's "church" of thought.
@@maxsiehier the Imageries of the Pagan Gods fighting have Symbolic and Noetic values
Socrates and Plato expanded upon this and it goes far back (as believed by Platonists) to even the Ancient Mystery Cults
What is the difference between Paul Tillich's God being the ultimate concern and this? I simply envision God as the infinite, eternal parameter by which all is contained. A simple circle is the symbol. The mathematical symbol of a circle is Pi which has an infinite number of digits. I don't think that is an accident. Second, is the angel of America a fallen or falling angel? (seriously)
Well, in all the accounts of the Bible, the only angel of a nation that was not fallen was Michael the prince of Israel. All others were in opposition to the true God. (Persia, Egypt, etc). So I would say that most likely the United States has always had a fallen principality(angel). Now as for the possibility of a second good principality brought by Christianity, There could be.
A big thing Peterson is doing is finally popularizing Jung. He never bothered to try that until the last years of his life and only produced Men and His Symbols. The great benefit of Peterson is the inheritance of Jung, but it's also his greatest burden (combined with being raised in the United Church of Canada) that is best summed up in Jung's declaration that he doesn't believe God exists, he knows God exists. That statement reveals that, as wise and learned a man Jung was, things just flew right over his head, and they did so with him being willful of it.
Pls explain further, I am truly interested. My take away of Nietzsche (JP refers to him often) is when he states “God is dead and we have killed him.” He accepts the truth of his existence and purpose.
@@lacylu5668 It's treating God as knowable and something small enough to grasp by our intellectual rather than being a being beyond comprehension that we will always struggle beyond fleeting moments of profundity. Belief is necessary because he'll always be beyond us.
Too much of God to Jung's comes from our mind. Without our mind God isn't really something in effect. Nietzsche's idea of the Death of God is similar as it is death to us, to God nothing has changed.
@@nektulosnewbie god has to be infinite and unknowable yes but he also connects to us and is knowable by us so it is both it’s a paradox I think jung and Peterson understand it like this
Jordan meant “god for you” crushing atheist that say they have no god not that’s all that god is, and the mode of being that unites all is exactly what Jordan work is all about to me
Cities have consciousness beauiful
I don't even understand... Lol
I find it pretty dualistic to say we can’t be completely united with God. Yes, we will never be united with God fully in terms of our existential experience. There will always be that moving toward the Infinite, as Jonathan put it. We are finite; God is not. Yet, paradoxically, because of the Incarnation, all of human nature has been united with everything that God IS, which would very much include the Divine Essence. In all respect, some of the patriarchs had some mad dualism on them, if I’m being quite honest.
Here’s something Jesus said to His Father: “May they be one, Father, as You and I are one.” (John 17)
To be one in this way is to first be one with God in the way They are one, without the loss of distinction. Human nature overlapping with Divine Nature; neither diminished in ontology. This is the mystery of the ages!
**What Jonathan is referring to is Brahman. Not Brahma. Brahma is indeed, just another god. One of the three tridevi. Brahman is the all. This doesn’t affect his point, but the devil is in the details.
So... the only mode of being that can bring you to God is surrender to mistery?
Or become a Christian and eat the Mistery, make it a part of your being.
So if humans come together to form families, families form cities, cities form countries, countries form the international community...doesn't the hierarchy of consciousness just end there?
There is nothing with which the international community could combine with to create an even higher Angel. What am I misunderstanding here? Because to me it seems that then God would be the spirit of Humanity as a whole, but nothing more than that.
Humanity is but one part of the universe, and the universe itself is but one possibility out of infinite possibilities. God transcends all that is and all that could be. Furthermore, God fills the hierarchy: whereas members of the hierarchy contain lower and are contained in higher realities, but cannot understand either one, God is the Source of all things, and is more interior to all things than their inmost selves.
Your argument requires the belief that humans are the highest form of consciousness in the world; that there are no higher levels of consciousness above us.
Ask yourself, is it possible for a city to want something.
Wisdom... let us be attentive. Amirite Jonathan??
Boyce!
fragwagon!
Weren't the "angels" of the various churches mentioned in The Revelation actually the bishops of those churches?
no
👍
BOSS
It is worth noting that the Yhwh/Iao of the old testament is not the infinite Good/ultimate beyond-being. Yhwh/Iao is either a creator or a principality masquerading as a creator -- "middle management".
Bret's last point was that science explains religion. It clearly doesn't.
No. You missed his point. Bret’s point was it doesn’t matter what vision or ideal you put at the top of the hierarchy, because the vision and ideal is only in your mind until you act in reality. To try and achieve an ideal or vision of the highest perceived good, your action in reality comes in the form of a method, strategy, tactic, policy, law, behavior. Therefore, when you act in reality, you receive feedback in the form of positive and negative consequences. Religion muddies the water of results by declaring if anything negative happens by trying to achieve the ultimate good or vision, then it’s a test from our God seeing if we will be patients and endure long suffering. However, in reality it’s just a result of bad methods and strategies. This is the birth of dogma and orthodoxy, that does not allow us to adapt, and change our methods and strategies based on realities feedback “consequences”. This is exactly what they mean when they say the road to hell is paved by good intentions. You cannot get an ought from an IS, BUT There are facts about the means used in reality to try and achieve an ought.
because "God" created all those things. that is how they are "united". all creation. there is no other God.
Jordan Peterson. what's taking him so long? 🙄
GOD IS PURE POSITIVE ENERGY
SATAN IS PURE NEGATIVE ENERGY
YOUR CONSCIOUS HAS A CHOICE
This is how I have always seen it. I don't understand how its hard for people to understand this.
Peterson is controlled opposition
God is the personification of your community. Monotheism is the idea that all humans are really just one interconnected community. Which is true in some sense, and also in other ways, it's not true. Therefore, it makes sense to say, God does and does not exist. God definitely exists as an idea, but it's only real in so far as everyone agrees that they are all a part of one interconnected community, which isn't a given.
are you suggesting that a human idea of community created humans and everything else and that it needs human agreement to be and is not self sufficient? Are you realy suggesting that reality is a social construct that humans created? Are you suggesting then that humans are more than being itself?
Nonsense.
@@candaniel2 well I see I haven't convinced you.
I'll be happy though with providing you with the analogy that humans, in general, live inside a collective.
If you raise a human in the wild with no education, he will become an animal.
What makes humans special (able to provide food for everyone or go to moon) is thousands of years of cultural evolution. The accumulation of knowledge, habits, and paradigms of thought.
In that sense, humankind can be compared to an ant colony. In that: we all work together while only being charged with the responsibility of taking care of our own lives.
You don't need to believe in God to appreciate the fact that we're all working together to maintain a state of prosperity on Earth.
@@jokerguycz hi Philip. I'm suggesting that the idea of God, in sofaras it is not just a make-believe entity like Santa Claus created by a priestly class designed to manipulate gullible people into organizing into a functional society, is a way the community understands its own identity. Think about the Greeks, each City state had their own God, which was the human version of all of their ideals. Christianity is the same way. Their "perfect human" is incredibly just. He's concerned with Justice. He's a punisher. He punishes those who break the law. He's also incredibly loving. He says, through his son, Jesus Christ, even if you're a criminal, you can still regain your social standing if you make up for it.
When, in the Bible, it says god made humans, to me that means: humanity was created out of culture. Culture itself pre-dates homo sapiens probably.
I know that's a perversion of the text. But hey, I guess that makes me perverted?
tldr angels are real, god is not
God Is
You believe in messengers with no message