Finding The BEST All-Around Straight-Walled Cartridge - Season 2 Episode 95
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- Опубликовано: 3 апр 2023
- Welcome to the Ron Spomer Outdoors Podcast! In this episode, I answer listener questions about straight-walled cartridges, the flattest shooting cartridges, and more!
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Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media.com/
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely.
I love how ron reads and responds to even our comments. Hes a nice guy, attentive creator, and soft spoken teacher.
Thanks for noticing, Allthings. I can't catch all the comments, but try to hit many.
No he doesn't
4570 would be my go to, 300 grain loads for deer/hogs, 400 grain loads for elk/bear. I am from Alaska and can say the 4570 has a great reputation with the hunting community for moose and bear.
I like the 444marlin a lil better
@@warrengreen3217 Good cartridge, and I love Marlin lever guns. I've owned 3 and regret selling all 3 because now, Marlins are $1,200 and up.
However, the .444 is really one of those cases of trying to reinvent the wheel.
@@PotatoeJoe69 I here you I had a early 70ds marlin336 in 30-30 it was my first deer gun got it in brand new shape of my grandpa he got them for his kids my uncles and they never got into hunting so 3 of them sat in his gun cabinet me my brother and my cousin each bought them off him for 90bucks with are paper rout money I got a lot of deer with it wish I still had it
@@PotatoeJoe69 if you reload for 44 mag why wouldn't you own a 444? But I get your point.
I live in Alaska too. I've used it from everything from mountain goat to moose. I normally use 430 grain Hardcasts, but I just got a ruger no 1 single shot in 45-70 and I'm going to work up a load with 350 grain barnes tsx bullets at around 2200 fps.
Your comments on the neck shot are spot on.
Ron, I’ve hunting friends in many places. I once was lectured by the game keeper at Glenveagh National Park here in Ireland for using anything bigger than a 6mm for harvesting Irish Red Deer. Friends in Central Alaska take either a neck shot for moose or bear with a .45-70 whilst the Athabaskan hunters use a .223 and place the bullet in the ear. This gels with what my Dad taught me-disconnect the central nervous system and the job’s done.
444 MARLIN! EXTREMELY VERSATILE! Can't wait for the 400 LEGEND to come out...
400 legend? What is that?
@@Yoopermanbeau a cartridge approved by SAAMI. Winchester should be bringing it out in the near future ... check RUclips for information.
@@Yoopermanbeau winchester submited a 10mm straight wall cartride to saami a little while back. Comperble muzzle energy to 7.62 nato loads.
@@gabeelkins9059 Ok, I wonder if that will make the 350 legend go down in popularity? Did the Saami thing show the potential velocity?
444
I honestly learn so much about all this stuff simply by watching these videos these guys are doing the job of the books to be honest it is so wonderful to see so many great channels from different guys that are full of information. Usually you do not get this info for free you need to buy a book or go to school for it but thanks to Ron and all other such channels here on tube to inform us in our concert zone at home. So again thank you Ron for sharing all this info you and all other guys out there are doing a great job I hope every body body else feels the same as me and appreciates these videos.
Hello Ron and thank you for another podcast creation. A while ago, you asked for feedback on whether or not we would prefer longer or shorter videos. Well, as for me I really enjoy longer content just as this episode is. But I am grateful for anything and you should take your liberty in producing content your own way. With regard to your first subscriber, I think you responded with a near-perfect response. He sounds as though he's had a lot of success making lethal neck shots and it's really great that he's downed all these deer. I just think of all of the deer that I have field dressed and just as you wrote, there really isn't any room for error with these shots. And it isn't the 243. Just last year, my wife shot a doe with the 243. Shot it high behind the armpit with an accubond and that deer took an instant dirt nap. I guess my point is I think that this gentleman has had a fair bit of luck with the neck strategy and I also think that he'd be pretty successful with that 243 aiming for behind that armpit. It leaves more room for error. And he's made an excellent choice in cartridges. The 243 is plenty of rifle and is popular the world throughout. I wish him well and happy hunting!
The 6 mm Remington is a bit better than the 243. Try it
Hey Grady. I'm glad that you've found a great deer round. You are right to like the 6mm Rem. The only reason why I think it didn't really gain a lot of popularity is the same old reason for Remington in that era. We are an imperial country and at that time nobody really understood the benefits of the metric system. Americans just didn't want metric in the gun safe at the time. Plus, they were fighting against the 243 Win, and that round is very dearly beloved. Now it's the 6mm CM and that is a great round. I really like the idea of the 6Rem but I hunt with my 270Win and I'm not switching. My wife feels the same about her 243 so I think we are covered for now. We know that excellent 6Rem will do a great job though. Deer aren't hard to kill as long as you follow the golden rules. Buy a hunting bullet, shoot at capable distances for you and the rifle,and place the bullet well. Thanks, Grady!
Actually, Jeff, when the 6mm Rem. first came out, 1955, it was called the 244 Rem! That should have competed nicely against the 243 (also 1955) except for the twist rate. Rem. chose 1:12, thinking of the 244 as a varmint cartridge stabilizing 70-gr to 90-gr. bullets. Win. gave the 243 1:10 and its 100-g. load convinced the vast majority of deer hunters. When reintroduced as the 6mm Rem., the old 244 had a 1:9 twist. Handloaders take it about 100 to 150-fps faster than the 243 Win, but I doubt any deer notice the difference. @@Jeff_Seely
Thanks for the facts Ron. I did not know any of these facts until now. Be blessed!
Always a great watch Ron. Thank you for always keeping it real.
.458Win mag can be loaded with everything from a single .457 round ball, to low end 45-70, mid range 45-70, top end 45-70, and of course full power loads. The only draw back is a heavier rifle to carry all day.
Yours is the best show on RUclips. Keep up the good work Ron
Lew Horton distributing was a firearms distributor based in Massachusetts. They offered a lot of exclusive models, most of the ones I have heard of were revolvers, Smith and Wesson are the ones I’ve heard of. I guess they must have had some exclusive Remington 700 models, too. I have a Davidsons exclusive RIA 1911. As near as I can tell, the ‘exclusive’ part is the ceracote color and grip color. I have a friend who had a Lew Horton S&W .44 magnum.
You're answer is spot-on James. I was in the firearms wholesale business in Massachusetts 40 years ago and we dealt with Lew Horton a lot. Horton's did have lot's of S&W models made for them and even a few other makes/models.
As to the buckshot debate: I have a Winchester SXP with 3 1/2 chambers. Turns out there is a commercially loaded 2 oz. 00 buck. That’s 18 pellets. Recoil is rather heavy, but with longer chambers you can significantly improve pellet/ball count. However, every shooter needs to be mindful of the effective range of themselves and their weapon.
444marlin is my favorite straight wall
Thanks for good honest answers Ron! Long or short, they're all good but i vote for longer!
Regarding Coriolis effect, from how I understand it, ( and I might be dead wrong but here it goes ) it works like this: Imagine you fire a bullet towards a deer. The deer stands on the ground, just as you and therefore you and the deer move with the Earh, but the bullet does not, since it is in flight. Therefore both you and the deer drift a little bit during the bullet´s flight. The longer the flight, the longer the drift.
This an issue with high angle fires (Howitzers) and naval guns firing 10-25 miles. It is not an issue for long range rifle fire.
It actually is an issue for long range rifle fire, when the target is sufficiently distant and small. A lot of the shots executed by our guys in Afghanistan were in that category. 2K meters on a torso definitely requires it!
You're on the right track. Due to surface friction, the air near the surface moves with the Earth. Which is good news. The Earth spins really fast. It's due to the Earth spinning toward the East and also spinning faster at the equator. The equator moves at just over 1000 mph which drops to around 500 mph at the 60 degree latitudes. Say you're standing on the equator with a Mega Howitzer that can shoot the North pole. You, the Mega Howitzer, and the projectile are currently traveling 1000 mph eastbound. You fire the Mega Howitzer at the northpole. That projectile really wants to conserve it's momentum 1000 mph eastbound as it travels north because that's what it was doing when fired. As it travels North the Earths rotation speed begins to drop but the projectile wants to maintain its greater eastward momentum. Therefore, distance and direction traveled is what will determine how the Coriolis Effect will affect the projectile. A hunting rifle will not need to worry about it. If you want a Howitzer or ICBM to hit its target, you're going to want to know how to account for it. Or if you're a meteorologist or pilot.
Well look at the path of the solar eclipse Yesterday. Think i heard that the earth was going 2400 miles or km an hour. Look at the path and times. It may not seem like much at 200-300 yards but shit does move. Eventhough an inch or half inch
Earth is flat. Bible says so.
@6:20 Ultimate reward for both hunter and prey. Wisdom trumps trophy. This was an AMAZING write in from educated hunter, and Ron I am in awl of your response. Thank you for sharing your knowledge AND wisdom. Stay safe.
Please forgive my old eyes. awl = awe. Thank you.
Thanks for for your knowledge. Enjoy learning from your experience
Lew Horton was a distributer in Westborough MA. They opened in 1948 and closed their doors in 2019. Very nice folks to deal with and they had a good selection of product. I would take the one hour drive each way if I needed a gun for a customer with a deadline. They did have some models branded with their name.
35 cal is the answer to a lot of questions.
.350 LEGEND! I love that round.
In the north 4570, elsewhere without grizzly population 38 55. Both started out as blackpowder and would not be a big step to use again if one had to.
I have used a 6.5x55 for years on whitetail and hogs and never lost an animal ,its shot placement
Good choice! 6.5 x 55 mm. He ( Ron) spends too much time on usa cartridges only.when USA isn't the only country in the world
I love the .243, it is a shooters caliber. I use 85 grain pointed soft point, it just jellies the lungs or destroys the heart.
Agreed my 257 weatherby does the same but at greater distance
Love the channel thanks Ron
Just watched your chat with Hickok45 the other night.....excellent!! Your the Hunter for sure and he is for sure a shooter.....competitive even!! But you both seemed to have had a nice visit and excellent talking points!! And two retired English teachers to boot!! Great time!! Thank you!! I subscribed tonight!! Love your work...... Hickok45 too. Big fan!!
I am in Hickok45's neighborhood!! A neighbor in Virginia!! Hahaha 😊
Thanks again!!
G'day from Aus, 🌅👍🍻😁
A pleasure to listen to from the sticks of Aus
On the neck shot. Been there, done that when I was young and getting a bit too confident in my shooting ability. Cost me a very nice buck which a friend killed two weeks later and yes it suffered. I'm not saying I wouldn't use it if that is my only shot but I haven't in over 30 years.
Good to know. In Australia shooting kangaroos, aiming for the neck when spotlighting is a way of hedging your bets. A bit high, head shot, a bit low and it's in the chest. The key key distinction being that they stand bolt upright when you put the light on them.
I haven't been deer hunting yet, but this video may have kept me from making a mistake based on that theory.
Your experience really emphasises that point.
6.5 x 55 swedish instead
@@gradyhernandez4699I'm not sure what you mean. Could you explain a little more on it.
@@LameWolff ok,next: how about a .222 Remington ,or any .222 cartridge, is there anyone out in you tube world that HAS hunted with a .222 rifle
@@gradyhernandez4699 I think I'm with you now. On the 6.5 Swed it is an exhalant whitetail round. A good friend of mine has use it for years with very good results. I have no experience with the 222 but it is much like a 223 and does not have much bullet weight. I've seen the 223 used but wasn't impressed. I've been hunting whitetail deer for 49 years. When I started the 270, 30-30 and 30-06 were the norm (and still very popular) along with shotguns (shooting slugs) and a few Mauser or Japanese military surplus rifles here in the WV woods. Now of days you can see anything from the 223 to the 300 Win mag and a few of the straight walls being used. Personally, I fill for whitetail don't use anything lighter than a 130gr bullet because you won't be shooting your best when hunting. It's raining and your cold, it's snowing and you are frozen and if you really enjoy the hunt adrenalin is flowing, so that moa shooting you can do all of a sudden is 2 or 3 moa.
I love watching your videos all the time
458 Winchester is my vote
444marlin
If you reload , you could customize it to hunt just about everything.
Agree👍. 458 Lott is nice too ;-)
@@donaldmartin4980 yeah but if you don’t you might kill Bambi and the mom with one bullet!!! Factory ammo isn’t very versatile that I’ve seen???
I use the Leupold dual dove tail bases. I really like the clean look of these bases. I have never had a need to use the windage adjustment in the rear base. Dual dove-tail base eliminates the possibility of the screw coming loose without you noticing.
I use a 338 federal in a handgun , with 185-200 grain bullets, recoil isn't bad at all, about like the 243 and it hits hard out to 300yds. I have several 45-70' but am building a 45-90 for a all around straight wall, I think it depends on where you are hunting and the ranges involved, like prairie elk or bear in the bush. Where I live, I hunt both. Practice, practice, practice.
Great advice on neck shots Ron!👍
If you’re going to be hunting elk I would go with the 444 marlin or 450 bushmaster
If your standing right beside it it mite be ok but that .444 drops like a rock rite out of the bore over 100 yards.your dreamin
Love the advice on rings and bases. I grew up using leupold turn in rings on everything. Definitely more time consuming to do correctly. Picatinny rails are so much easier to deal with for me. Luckily my last two rifles I picked up had rails.
Good advice on the neck shot, Ron. There is a new straight-walled cartridge coming out as we speak. The 41 Great Lakes cartridge was developed by two Michigan gentlemen about the same time as the.350 Legend came out. It surpasses every other 1.8” straight wall cartridges in velocity and energy out to 400 yards. Very good performance on deer 🦌 and bear so far.. Thank you for your enlightening presentations on all things shooting related.
Love the commentary. Neck shots are fickle at best my Father in law is a big fan of them with the 270 he has had luck with them but I have had either a lost deer or an immediate lights out drop. I go for the heart and lung shot everytime with a good bullet. I may have to track a little but I find them.
My vote for a straightwalled cartridge is the 45-70 out of a ruger no 1 handloaded with 350 grain barnes tsx bullet .
My father got me a 45-70 when I was a young teenager. It is still my go to while hunting deer or larger! First year out for deer I hit a button buck in spine. It dropped right where it stood.
Regarding Coriolis, its perhaps best to start imagining what happens at a pole. At the north pole, regardless of which direction you shoot, your target is running to the left. So you'll hit a little to the right of where you aim. As you go towards the equator the same thing happens, but the effect diminishes. At the south pole, whichever direction you aim, your target is running to the right. etc
Great content.
Ron, Brian Litz's book, applied ballistics for long range shooting is where to look for Coriolis Effect. It is very small, but does need t be considered at LONG ranges.
Thanks so much for the 12ga over 20ga recommendation for youth. Low recoil 12 is way easier to find than 20 in almost all loadings. Also frame size!! 20ga shotguns are usually lighter and end up having significantly more recoil. Lucky Gunner has a great breakdown of this comparison geared towards home defense, but the same principles apply to hunting and sport shooting!
YES, always a 12 gauge over a 20 gauge for all uses, all ages, all of the time!! Nothing to gain by buying a 20 guage. Both guns weigh about the very same. If a person does not like recoil kick then go to low recoil light 12 gauge loads:: 8 pellet 00 buck, target or field birdshot loads, and 1-3/4” mini shells in the Mossberg 590S pump action.
16s are my favorite
Actually when it comes to bird hunting 28 guage the best you can get. Tighter patterns at distance and lower recoil than a 12 guage
How about a 16 gauge ( Mossberg) with celec choke (?)
A 16 gauge is ideal
NY counties mostly moved from shotgun slugs to rifles, no issues. Pennsylvania State University did a great study on the ricochet issues and how shotguns are worse
Like your broadcast keep it up
In answer to the 7mm straight wall, I reference back to an article that Mr. Spomer did on the 6x70R. The biggest wall you would impact (no pun intended) is that most states also have a 1.8" length restriction. Otherwise I would have expected a resurgence of old Ballard cartridges instead of new boutique creations. Also Sellier and Bellot has a step-shank, their (SPCE) bullet offering. Is built that way. However I am unsure how badly that would effect B.C.
Some cartridges considered for straight wall: .458 Lott, .45-110 (and 70, 90), .50-110 winchester, .50-140 sharps, 450, 500, 600 nitro express,
Some are considered "short" range others are famous for extreme long range. All will travel a very long range due to a high sectional density even if the BC isn't necessarily high. Once they go subsonic, they will travel forever (to use a bit of hyperbole).
Just thought I'd add some options and give some options for those who are limited to straight wall cartridges.
Hi Ron 🙂
Back in the day and even now there is a black powder season. Nover had a deer run from a.50 cal shoulder shot. I look for the darkest spot in the brush and circle towards it. I mostly cull hunt and find the second doe/fawn the best eating. fryers.
Hi Ron,
Did a quick lookup on Lew Horton. He owned a firearms distributorship on the east coast. He contracted some specialty guns from various makers. Looked like mostly pistols. The asked about Remington 700 looked like there were two varieties made. Both were police orientations with one having a 26" barrel.
There was no mention of him being related to Tim Horton who was a hockey legend for the Toronto Maple Leafs and went on to run a Donut and Coffee chain across Canada and parts of the USA.
Another point but this one is about shotguns. When starting new shooters the best thing is to get lower recoil, but most of all a good fit. I have two daughters and they both shot trap for the local sportmans association's youth trap team when they were in high school. So I thought 20 ga is perfect. Not so. There were not any low recoil loads available at that time. Very little selection really. We switched to a Remington 11-87 trap gun in a 12 ga. There were alot of low recoil loads available. But with the right stock fit and barrel lengths available in the 11-87 the 11-87's recoil with remington STS trap loads was felt less than the 20 ga. she started with.
Great video as always. Keep up the good work.
We had a Lew Hortons in Framingham Ma when I was growing up and was a cool shop to walk around in and offered a little bit of everything for all the different gun enthusiasts
Would be great to see the new Marlin 336 chambered in .375 Win.
"Shut up and take my money!" 😍
I think you were right on with the kneck shots.. I'll wait for a better shot always served me well.
Wanted to hear about the straight walled cartridges..... but too many other topics discussed and not enough time to wait for the "straight walled" portion....
But.... great show. I agree with everything you discussed that I heard. One of the many reason that I enjoyed reading your magazine articles! I miss them, BTW...
But congrats on your newer shows on UTube.
I'm a rifle shooter in the east. Like my 356 and 375 Winchesters for hunting. I'm looking forward to trying the new Buckhammer 360.
If they REALLY can get 2200 out of a 200 grain bullet... it should be a great deer rifle (just like my 356), regardless if you hunt in the east OR the Midwest. The singleshot rifle with the Flextip bullet, may be almost perfect!
Still... for me round nose bullets work just fine.
If I can't get them at 150 yards with the round nose, then I get closer... or let them go.
Same goes with my 300 Savage....
My go to has been my 300 wsm for last year was my 28 nos but 300 wsm ammo is everywhere and truly remarkable cartridge
So many great ones
444 , 375 Winchester & 45/70
I have taken game with all three
I really think the 400 Legend will be a interesting cartridge
I also think if the
360 Buckhammer will be interesting also … because of the use of the .358 diameter bullet
Great bullets
Ron- I believe the reason the flight of a bullet always going to the right is because the majority of barrels have rifling twist that spins the bullet to the right (e.g. 1:8 right twist). On an episode of King of 2-Miles, one of the shooters had a barrel built with left twist rifling. He made a comment on that episode that most of his impacts are to the left. Just a thought. Thanks for your videos and articles. Keep up the good work sir!
Ben, that's more than just a thought. That's spin drift. You are right. From a right twist barrel bullets will spin drift to the right due to the bullet tip cocking just slightly right. If I remember right the military calculated this to be 5.8" at 1,000 yards for the 30-06 military round in WWI. Spin drift adds about another 5 inches. Then you add in the Coriolis effect! More good reasons to stalk closer.
I feel you’re right. Often the two are confused
I was always told that also right twist spin to the right.. asks pitcher as well his rotation causes drift?
Old artillery man here and lol no one talked about it to me
I shot bow many times all my arrows fletched to the (left) I dunno brother liked fletching them but said because we are left handed shooters we had to use the other angle as our bow arrows spin would hit the bow because it spin the wrong way … again I dunno
Love your shows Ron Spoomer!!!
There are guns from the World War I era that have there's sites angle either left or right based on rifling. The Artillery Luger has it's sights go up and leftward and the American Benet-Mercié sights too.
@@LOUDcarBOMB Yes, those angled, elevated caliper sights were designed to compensate for spin drift. I believe our WW1 Springfield in 30-06 was angled to compensate for 5 or 6 inches of right deflection at 1,000 yards.
This guy has a spirit living in his studio. Orb is constantly flying around by itself. Not dust; dust doesn't fly around doing fugure eights then changing speeds abruptly flipping a b*tch then change directions and shoot off warp speed.
Good stuff 👍👍
A 45-90 in a modern action loaded to modern pressure levels is an amazing straight wall cartridge.
I got one built 20 years ago and it was very good, but I sold it because it got to expensive and difficult for me to get good cases with the economy I had at that time.
Super strait wall hard to beat nice gun
Hornady and others make point 45/70s nowadays!! Worth looking at for sure!! I call them aero bullets! Virginia is definately a brush /thick wood hunt, but across a farm field, the new 45/70s really fly!! 300/400 yards is a doer!!
The 350 Legend can use better BC bullets, because it is designed for a magazine using firearm, like AR's or bolt actions. I'm a fan of the .45-70 personally and use that more than anything else for big game, but I bought a .45 Colt Henry which also works and you can get buffalo bore version loads that take it up almost to .454 level loads. I am really happy with my load using a 240 gr. XTP magnum which is a tough pistol bullet normally used for guns like .454 and .460 S&W, but with the heavy loads I use in .45 Colt, it works great. The .360 Buckhammer is a rimmed cartridge also, so you are pretty much limited to lever guns or single shots.
Best straight walled cartridge is the 450 bushmaster. There are high velocity and hard hitting specialty rounds. I suggest getting a AR and have all these different upper options to scratch all your itches
Ron, if harvesting is the goal then your advice on chest shoots are the most ethical even though damage tissue is more likely.
I do not own a rifle for Deer Hunting smaller than a 7mm-08rem @ 120gr. And I'm a behind the shoulder one shot one kill kind of guy. I Watch Ronnie everyday ! He's Great for knowledge !!
Hey there Mr. Spomer, I love the show, I love how analytical you are and blend the science with practical application. Thank you sir.
I must agree with your thoughts and appraisal of neck shots.
My father was also a person who always took neck shots. Now, he normally used a 32 special or 30-06. The one time he went with a 243, he took the shot at 250 yards and had to do some tracking. He still got the buck, but it wasn't as clean as what he was use to.
Myself, I go with high shoulder just forward of the descending wither line, or the pump-house. I primarily use my 30-30 or my 270, but I have had tremendous success with 223 fiocchi V-max loads and high shoulder shots inside of 125 yards.
My question involves the Ole quarter bore. I recently picked up an old Mauser made in 1958 before remington adopted the cartridge. With 117 grain Hornady interlock loads, it plants clover leaves at 225 yards. What are your thoughts on using a 25-06 for elk out here in Oregon?
I hunt on the west side of the state so I'm about equally likely to get a 100 yard shot in the woods as I am a 300 + yard shot on a clear cut.
Chris, I've not tried a 25-06 on elk, but many have used it successfully, so we know it works. Critical is the bullet and where you put it. The high shoulder shot you report should do the trick. Ditto the tight behind shoulder crease just on or above the heart. I'm shooting Hammer Hunters in my 25-06 these days and can't imagine that wouldn't work, but a bonded or partition-style should more than suffice, too. This should be a hemorrhaging termination more than "shock," but both could combine. You'll likely have to do some tracking. My heart/lung shot elk usually stand or run for upwards of 5 to 10 seconds, so having a pass through can help with blood trailing. Please let us know how things turn out! And best of luck.
444 marlin. Extremely underrated
My understanding of the spin drift is because the barrel rifling twist spins the bullet clock wise. This in effect with throw the bullet to the right down range at further targets.
I'm a pilot and here is what I know about Coriolis Effect.
I know that it's something I heard about when I was studying for my Private Pilot certificate and Instrument rating. I know it has something to do with the Earth spinning. I also know it has never ever effected me in real life... Lol.
As far as shooting goes, we have enough to worry about with Gravity and even more so the Wind. If you can read the wind, and you have your ballistic calculations, you're going to hit a deer sized target as far as practical.
Thanks for your Great Videos Ron.
Finally got to the straight walled portion of your podcast....
Again, good info. I'm not sold on the 350 Legend primarily because I don't enjoy hunting with an AR. Lever Actions, bolt actions and singleshots are my preferred rifle actions. So because of that I lean more towards the new 360 Buckhammer. I prefer .358" bullets to 9mm. The 360 is easily comparable to the 35 Remington.
You mentioned the 444. That is a sleeper cartridge in my book. It took me 40 some years to get to liking that one! It's a versatile and powerful cartridge (where legal). It can be loaded down to a 44 magnum for Deer, and heavier and hotter for bigger stuff. It's my "30-06" of the big bores!
Still, it's hard to argue with the 45-70.
Being primarily a deer hunter in the east (Virginia), I like the new 360 Buckhammer.
I too have blown a neck shot, but that was only with a 6mm Remington.
And THAT was MY fault and some brush... NOT the gun's fault. Good luck!
I have a Ruger bolt action in 350 Legend. It will shoot 1" groups at 100yds off a bench with scope. I will be trying to get a 360 as soon as they are available.
@darrellmorse1894 that's great shooting! The legend should be a good short range round.
Like a "better 30 Carbine" !!
I'm a big fan of win 270 /130 for Deer mod recoil.
If you are continuing with neck shots, drop down to an 80 or 85 Ballastic tip. Varmint bullets work great.
I still recommend chest shots and shoulder shots
I have the Ruger Gunsight model, love it!
I agree with you on neck shots. Not much room for error. A vital zone shot is much more effective to unsure the kill.
Hitting them in a high shoulder shot with a bullet/cartridge combination that can break the shoulder going in, damage the lungs and break the shoulder going out. Sometimes even hitting the spine. These shots most often put the animal down where they stand.
Could always go through the arse end like Elmer Keith 😹😹😹
45-70 for me. 340 grain home cast bullet. Excellent deer round.
Ironically, .220 Swift seemed to make a good portion of its early "big game" reputation from neck shots with spectacular, immediate demise.
Ron enjoyed this episode as usual. I was a little surprised to hear you mention frangables with the 243 win. Did you mean using these bullets but only in situations where the deer or pronghorn is broadside? I’ve thought you were more on the side of using controlled expansion bullets for hunting situations. (One of my favorite story's was when you harvested a buck with your 22-250 AI with I believe a 60gr partition if memory serves me right) love the cartridge too! I guess what I’m getting at is hunting is never perfect and for me my best whitetails over the years we’re both harvested while the animal was angle towards me and the other away. Both were chasing and would not stop from a grunt, whistle or even a yell so I had to take what I had for a shot angle or watch them run off to the next farm. One was with a 120gr. partition from a 257 weatherby the other was a 243 win using 85gr. Barnes tsx. I don’t believe the frangible bullets would have done the job. Just was wanting your clarity on the subject of using the varmint bullets with the 243 and if you only suggest broadside shots. On a side note the 25-06 and 257 weatherby would be a great whitetail cartridges and of course one of your favorites the 7mm08. Thanks again for the great content!
You're on it, nick. Stick with the CR bullets for angled shots. I've just discovered that the frangibles do kill quickly when slipped behind the shoulder and into the heart/lungs where they come apart like they do on a small varmint, only the "varmint" is the heart/lungs. Massive hemorrhaging instantly. Death is instant in within 2 or 3 seconds, usually. But don't depend on such a bullet to even reach the vitals from an angled shot. Might, but just as easily might not.
Hello, Ron Spomer, 🙂 The "CC" option is not on this video, so I did not hear you mention my name at first. You started reading parts of my post and I said to myself: "That sounds familiar." 🤔 So I rewound the video and yep, you said "Gus". Very 😎. Thanks for reading my post.
Very good point about the heart-lung chest target on a deer instead of the neck. I have read that famed hunter/shooter W.D.M. Bell preferred to shoot deer (Red Stag in Scotland) where the neck meets the head. He felt that less edible meat was destroyed that way than by a body shot. He was a much better Rifleman than I. Seems to me that the heart-lungs area is the best place.
BTW - I am not suggesting anyone quits using their tried and true .30-30 Winchester cartridge or a .300 Savage etc. for Deer. Just pointing out that some folks had to use buckshot in certain States and Counties. I live where Rifles are the firearm of choice for hunting the four-legged. I like the .303 Brit cartridge and the .30-30 Win. because they work.
Per my comment about "buckshot' loads being also for riots, I was speaking of the 1900's and now, not the 1800's. When I was in the U.S.M.C. and again later in the Army we had 12-gauge shotgun "00" buckshot ammo for riots and guarding secure/important places/things. Both for prisons {Brig} and for riots in the streets that the local Police / Sheriff Departments could not control.
Good video! I bought some reloading dies for a .45-70 Govt. cartridge two years ago, but I do not yet actually own one yet. Thinking about getting a barrel adapter / chamber insert from a guy in Georgia USA that goes into a break-action 12-gauge shotgun. Two guns-in-one. 🙂
I think your advice on the 243 is spot on I think taking neck shot are taking a chance that aint very good I never lost a single one with a chest shot
I agree with you. Always a clean broudside in the ribcage. Minimal meatloss and a dead deer/elk/moose.
I also agree, I have been using a .243 for 17 years taking that many deer with single shoots to the chest cavity. None ran more than 50 yd even with a hole in the heart. The keys are shot placement and good expanding bullets,.
I would really like to see the .375 Win. & the .405 Win with modernized loads make a comeback! For the states that are limited to a 1.8 inch cartridge length, Remington needs to come out with a .400 Buckhammer!
45-70 🤠 Honestly it's been used for all animals on earth. It's true and tested by time.
On the 350 legend, it's only purpose in its design was to fit the AR-15 rifle or it's copies to give better performance on big game than the 5.56. The fact it is less then 1.8 case length or straight walled so it can be used where required wasn't in the specs. It as well as any cartridge can be used in a bolt action doesn't mean it was in the design specs.
360 Buck Hammer was designed to be used in a lever action rifle and fit the specs of 1.8 inch cases length and be 35 cal or larger. It can use heavier bullets than the 350 legend at similar velocities thus giving more energy at closer ranges. Its a closer match to the 35 Rem with warmed up handload. Being a shortened 30-30 means even if ammo manufactures slow or stop production, it's easy to convert cases. This is very hard to do with 35 Rem. It can be done but it takes a lot more steps to convert cases. This may make it a more popular lever gun option than the 35 Rem.
That's interesting, Leon. Where did you get that information? The Winchester folks I talked with told me they designed the 350 Legend specifically for straight-wall states like Ohio. I suspect they went with the rimless case so it would also fit ARs, figuring more hunters are moving to that format and away from lever-actions, but this latter is just speculation on my part. Remington is clearly betting on the lever-action.
@@ronspomer4366 I read a lot of things about things AR15. From the things I have read online and in magazines the 350 legend was a wildcat cartridge before Winchester claimed it. Winchester may have done a few changes to the specs when they claimed it. Similar to the way they and others manufacturers do to streamline cartridges for mass production. In so doing they could claim it as there own.
A lot of recent cartridge development is around AR platforms, both in the 10 and 15 length. Some are adopted by brand names and become the newest rage. Others that maybe better that don't get brand name support fail. Just the way things go.
Here for awhile I have considered a 300 Black Out, instead I think I will go with the 300 HamR. Better suited to the use I would put it to. It shoots the same weight bullets as the 30-30 to the same velocities. In the AR-15 platform you can use pointy bullets so down range performance is much better. The 300 HamR has been out almost as long as the 300 BO, but doesn't get the support so very few even heard of it.
I live in South West GA, we are not required to use straight walked cartridges here but it's not illegal either, A 100 yard shot in the the thick woods here is a rare occurrence, I was using a 30-06 to hunt deer but found it was causing too much damage. I switched to a 350 Legend in an AR with a 20" barrel, I use Winchester Power Point 180 grain bullets and they work amazing, neck shot or in the vitals, they run very little if at all. I've put two down in their tracks with neck shots but they don't go far in the vitals either. I had one get away using the 150 grain deer season bullet in the vitals, very little blood, another advantage to the 350 legend is it's very low on recoil.
Hi Ron ... hope this finds you well and happy ... coriolis effect...suggestion: How about reaching out to Destin (Smarter Every Day -- he is a rocket scientist) for a joint podcast or RUclips presentation on coriolis effect and bullet trajectory? I think the two of you would find several points of common ground and enjoy one another as well (I suspect you are both "good eggs"). Bet you two would find a working man's solution and a neat way to explain it. Regards, Doug (new patreon ;-)
I like this idea
Neck shots are great, if you can always hit a two inch target …..Herat lung area at a minimum is about an eight inch circle usually even bigger than that.
Lew Horton is a now defunct wholesale distributor of fire arms. Formally connected with Smith and Wesson, he could get special combinations of slides and lowers on their line of pistols.
I own a pair of 4596 S&W 45 cal, with a short barrel upper and a full length 8 round lowers. This pistol combined the frame from the Model 4506 and slide from the Model 4516 in a special run of 500 units for Lew Horton Distributors. It's doors closed in 2019.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents on the 243 guy, asking if it was enough for a deer sized animal. 243 has been one of the best calibers for deer for many years . After all it is a 308 necked down to 243 or 6mm. And that is more than double of what you really need. When you go to Africa to hunt they will give you a shirt pocket size book of all the animals that you are hunting. And it shows' the anatomy of each animal, how the spine ,and heart and lungs are located in the body, and that info comes in handy. For example our white tail have backstraps that are three to four inches thick. The spine is below that. You can shoot an arrow or a bullet through that meat and the deer will not die. Their are no vitals in their. Kind of like getting shot in the ass cheek. If you only pick up your rifle once a year at deer season and expect to be proficient enough to hit exactly wear you thick you are aiming ,you are wrong. you have to practice and know your gun and wear it hits at 100, 200, 300 yds. Then when you want to make a neck shot ,you know that if you hit to high ,that you missed the spine, and it is not the gun's fault. You just missed the spine. Back in the 30's the 22 Hornet was the first 22 high power in its day, and many many deer have been taken with it , because if you take a head or neck shot ,their is absolutely no meat damage. Then the 222 came out and more than twice the power of the Hornet , so it became a fine deer cartridge. But only to people that new how to shoot , and knew the capability of the gun. They are not deer running shot kind of guns. they are standing precision shot placement ,one shot kills kind of guns. If you shoot at a deer with a 30 caL. 308 or 30-06 and you are aiming for just behind the shoulder , and you miss and hit the shoulder , you can pretty much throw the front half of the deer away , because their is so much damage. I hunted deer with a 243 loaded with 85 gr speer boatails 3100 fps for years , and I never had one get away, Absolutely more than enough for a deer. Shot placement , being calm , don't get all excited when it comes time to make the shot. Know your gun , take shooting sticks with you, Even the best shooters need a good rest to make a good shot.
i have hunted whitetail with a .243 for years. Last year was the first one I took with a neck shot. I have never lost a deer that I shot with the .243. I took the neck shot because at 20 yards+, the neck was all I could see. My longest shot was at 407 yards. It comes down to shooting your rifle a lot, and shot placement.
I like my 405, it is a hammer but reloading components are just about nonexistent. Hard to go wrong with either the 444 or the 45/70, I have both…. Make your choice and go 👍
457/ is the only choice I don't get it have anyone ever shot the ,444 it sucks the biggest wind you could dam near throw the round as good,
The 405 is the shit good straight wall .
Regarding straight walled cartridges and their design limitations for using smaller faster bullets, one theoretical option would be a sabot style cartridge. Its is currently used with muzzle loaders and was tried in the 70s with the Remington Accelerator bottleneck cartridges in both 30 06 and 30-30. This was designed to push a .224 bullet at high velocities from a .308. I think the sub par accuracy was its main downfall, But the consensus was that generally the accuracy of your 30 cal rifle would be mimicked in the sabot .224 round. In many case's especially with the 30-30, that result wasn't considered ideal for the typical .224 application, varmint hunting. But maybe with todays technology, A straight walled 45 Cal round pushing something like a 6- 7mm discarding sabot bullet could prove useful for longer range deer hunting. But I never thought long range was much of an issue in straight walled States but that's just my understanding.
I think the one piece mount on my M70 30-06 has never given me a problem. I was told years ago that the one piece is a more stable mount system. My old 70 is a tack driver and I have never had to readjust the scope.
Would choose 450 bushmaster from experience with 45-70
A steel, 1-piece pic-rail has a few advantages. Properly bedded and installed, they serve to increase rigidity of the action. They take the recoil impulse of heavy magnum cartridges as well. Being one piece, they all but eliminate the likelihood of misalignment between the rings which is more common than one might think with traditional dovetail Leupold bases and rings, and the need to use dreaded shims or to lap in the rings, easily verified by using alignment slugs. The only disadvantage, or perceived disadvantage more likely is the limited clearance for top loading, but considering that even the largest magnum cartridges allow for at least a 2-3 round internal magazine capacity. How often does one really require the need for a 3rd or 4th shot? Single piece pic-rails might not look as nice as traditional 2-piece steel Leupold bases on wood stock/blued rifles, but they allow for far more flexibility in setting up a rifle for the most secure optics mounting system, and the most comfort for the shooter. I get it, and I have traditional rings and bases of several of my rifles strictly because the fit the look, but when it comes to the rifles that I call on for rugged durability and all-weather use out in the field, they have modern coatings, fiberglass or hybrid stocks, and single piece, steel picatinny rails properly bedded and installed on the actions. It’s just plain and simple a more robust, flexible optics mounting solution.
This is a good place to mention a wildcat first introduced 1962 by Frank Barnes:
458x2inch American, it's a step down in recoil energy of 458 win mag. Yet it uses very similar bullets designed for stopping big game in North America in the devils club thickets of Alaska & British Columbia. A truly North American special forest companion. Put that in a Mauser action and you have a great bolt rifle that is very easy to maintain.
* Is your rifle chambered for the American or for the .458 Win. mag. so you could shoot both? Of course, you could chamber it for the .458 Lott or the .450 Watts and then be able to shoot all 4 cartridges. Accuracy might suffer though, when using the shorter cartridges.
@@charlessmith4242 458x2inch American.
Ron,
450 bushmaster in a bolt action rifle or single shot allows you to get 2575fps with a 240gr bear creek ballistics 240hv bullet cnc machined monolithic bullet or loaded ammo. This gives 1000ft# energy (deer minimum) to reach out 400 yds in a cornfield or clearcut. MSR 350 legend AR rifle effective range is 175yds. For a woods hunter it would be a moot point. Illinois only allows 1 round and none in the box magazine so performance matters. Need knockdown and blood trail especially when your not a local hunting Illinois woods.😊
Cover photo is hilarious - Jumanji!
Get him a 12 ga can use a caliber adapter to 20 ga. or .410. I have both adapters for mine and it works well. I have a side by side 12 ga and an Over-under 12 ga and both work well. I'd get your boy a nice side by side like Tristar's Bristol or CZ's Bobwhite. The tristar in particular is really nice and light and has screw chokes as well as their switchable trigger with a single trigger. I love mine.
I'm not sure if you misspoke again going back and forth from triple ought Buck to slug however you might be interested in the Hickok45 video where he's blowing holes through countertop material at over 200 yards with slugs and a Benelli M4
Ron, on the child rifle/shotgun deal, you forgot about .308 Winchester. Cheaper that 6.5 Creedmore, and has lighter recoil than .30-06. Plus, you can find lighter bullet weights over .30-06 easier.
.45-70 is the most versatile in a straight wall cartridge, although not legal in many midwestern states.
Good placement of the right bullet is the prime criterion..... here in NZ when the cheap ex-mil 303 ran out in the late 60s our government deer cullers (they are a pest species here) went to the little .222..... they dropped big red deer on the spot... they were good shots as their pay depended on proven dead deer. A 6mm is fine for deer, and in the wrong place a 460 Weatherby won't work...
Always learn in your class. And , I’m in the industry
All I'm Guna say on the shotgun buckshot thing is this. I stumbled across a Mossberg 500 with a goose barrel put a full choke in it . Ran #5 shot 12 gauge shotgun, got 20" patterns at 60 to 80 yds. Went to a factory barrel with chokes, opened up 30" to 40" pattern. So with a goose barrel and the right choke ( coyote extra tight) this could work.
rolled this around, about 2003. For turkey hunting and cyote hunting . Cuz in PA you can hunt turkeys till noon then go after the cyotes for the rest of the day.
Saw this at turkey shoots, crow shoots goose guns pattern super tight.
Like the cartridge talk, how they're just remaking the past.
Certainly .45-70 for me. You can buy loads that barely leave the muzzle at the same speeds of .22lr, and then you can buy Buffalo Bore loads that push the .45-70 into .458 Win Mag territory - and everything in between.