I think it's most concerning that they test based on whoever looks most suspicious. If they're going to enforce a standard, it should be all top athletes who are tested.
I think it takes performance into consideration. Kinda like Lance Armstrong consistently winning, or athletes in other sports shattering records quite easily. There is a point where you have to ask if there's a possible leap in human evolution, or a spike in the methods of cheaters. I'm not saying they cheated, but the difference was enough to force questions.
He never said that. He said that it's not the only factor which means that it shouldn't be the only thing looked at and it certainly shouldn't be the determining factor for who gets to compete.
Testosterone is linked to muscle mass more consistently. And if a person naturally produces high levels of it , then who are you to say that's invalid? Do u want everyone to have same starting point? Then why not engineer athletes. The goal is to provide wqual opportunities. But not everyone is born equal. Albiet, trying to change that I not only whimsical ,that have also failed miserably at it. P sure how the older testings we're looked down upon , current testings will also be looked down upon in the future.
No One Specific they were listening, you can’t read, they never said it was the only thing so relax your comment, read again and think before posting it like this other comment should have done
Did they seriously do this whole video without mentioning that Semanya is intersex? She's XY. Seems pretty relevant. And presumably is testosterone is no big deal, then one can only assume there would be no problem with athletes artificially raising their levels, no?
That’s exactly why there is separation to keep things fair and preventing natural beasts from just winning it all with less work. I’m not saying this case in particular is justified. I’m saying the argument, it’s natural therefore fair is wrong; or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so, we’d have men and women competing together, and ignore their genetic advantages...
I don't know if this is true - but based on some quick internet research I just did, it says the she was born with a y chromosome. I feel like that is relevant to the discussion at hand and the video totally did not mention it. She is an intersex person with characteristics of both sexes. Also testosterone is definitely a performance enhancer - it is not the only factor but it is a significant factor. That is why drugs that enhance it are banned as PEDs - even in men's sports. The sad thing is that I feel like they are banning her for competing how she was born. She may have been born intersex and that is giving her an advantage - but shes not cheating to get an advantage. Then at the same time; is it fair to the other women who are competing? I don't know this is a complicated issue... Anyway interesting video.
Its not really that complicated if you think about it. Everywhere there are standards. In the military, you have to be a certain weight, height. You can't have any medical deformities without clearance. This is very similar. In order to compete, she would need clearance of these standards. If she can't be cleared to have the same standard as the other women, she shouldn't be allowed to compete. I bet if anything, she could run with the men. Even then, its not like everyone is allowed to compete anyway so why should she be able to when she has a clear advantage against everyone else; not much of a competition if you ask me.
I think it's not fair for her to be conpeting against regular women, just like it's not fair for someone in combat sports to fight in different weight class. People try to make this much more complicated or racial/sexist than it is. I mean if in future we can do operation that significantly enhances your athletic ability, should that person be allowed to compete against normal people? We have banned doping for exactly this reason, it gives totally unfair edge in competition.
I say to all women. You went through all these years to get equality and a place in the world. Now it seems you are faced with this issue. I would use these obstacles to train harder and keep chasing until you beat these types of obstacles. World is never fair so I say rise above it. In the end everything will work out.
I don’t understand why they changed from chromosome testing to testosterone testing. Especially since we likely have better understanding of intersex individuals than we did in the 1960s. I don’t really approve of many of these regulations, but if any test exists, it seems like it should be more sensible and accurate than hormonal testing.
Vox: Testosterone isn’t the only factor to determine who is success, there’s no scientific backing Also Vox: the top 3 women from 2016 olympics all have high testosterone
Tim Evans that is not an applicable example. A correlation is scientifically known as a pattern also. They, CORRELATE so they are related in a pattern. When the top 3 women from 2016 and ones from years prior also get affected by the new regulations that is a correlation/pattern to show that higher testosterone does mean a higher athletic prowess?
I'd say 2 things: - Saying testosterone levels are linked to performance doesn't mean they're THE ONLY determining factor. The video spends two minutes talking about other factors that might play a role in athletic performance as if the claim was "it's all about your testosterone levels". -Caster Semenya was born with XY chromosomes. I feel like that should be included in the video.
@@steavenjosey They definitely should've mentioned it but she has characteristics of both sexes, and I don't think it's fair to not let someone run because of how they were born. But she also has a clear advantage over others. So what?
@@darksideorbit8898 I imagine it's because that isn't why she was banned, she was banned because of her testosterone levels. I think one of the most illuminating parts of this video is that only those athletes deemed "suspicious" are subjected to testing. That alone carries the potential for clear discrimination.
I wish Vox had mentioned that she has XXY chromosomes. I would have preferred for more of the video to be about that, because most people don’t have much of a grasp on those genetics, and we would like to learn more. However, I am glad that they pointed out the discrimination in the testing of certain individuals. I’m personally at a loss for how testosterone testing could be better than chromosome testing, so a lesson on intersex would be super informative.
That's literal bull she was born a man nothing could be clearer than that it even sounds manlier than a lot of men walking around it looks like a man and has the strength of a man
@@reeldirtiestudios she’s intersex that means that she’s born both a woman and a man and the only one who thinks she walks and talks like a man is you and your toxic masculinity. Grow up.
So Vox, you guys sure did leave a lot of people more confused than before they had started to watch this video. Define intersex, make sure to explain the distinction between transgender and intersex, define Semenya's chromosomes. You guys did none of that. Disappointed.
Vox will argue here that there is no link between testosterone and performance, then in another video will argue that testosterone inhibitors is enough to allow trans women to compete in women’s events
"...it's unclear how testosterone can be singled out as the defining factor." That's directly from the video. The point isn't to say testosterone has no influence, the point is that it's a complex multifaceted issue, and reducing it to one little molecule doesn't do it justice.
@@WynnofThule But that’s exactly my point - “cannot be singled out” but yet inhibitors (and only on them for a year at that) is enough to see you qualify for women’s events.
God these writers clearly tried to manipulate facts. The reason testosterone is linked to performance is because testosterone has been directly proven to increase muscle mass (hence why steroids are made primarily up of testosterone). As a result, men (because they produce wayyy more testosterone than woman) have more muscle and can perform with higher athletic ability. It’s clearly unfair that someone who was born as a man (and naturally produces testosterone which increases muscle mass) should be allowed to compete against someone who has no ability whatsoever to increase testosterone levels (and as a result muscle mass).
Chiarity she was born with a y chromosome... she possesses the characteristics of both sexes which is why she has far higher testosterone levels than the rest which IS a performance enhancer
@TheProphetPepe Why should you be punished for being born a certain way?. Why can't the women take medical treat meant to higher there testosterone level if they want to compete then?.
Fantan she should be punished because she has a very clearly unfair advantage against the other women. She needs to have her testosterone levels lowered or compete with the men
Well, dude has a medical condition which allows him to be the father of the two children he has with his wife...also, he got a lot of cash. The public scrutiny was only a small fee he paid for helping to destroy women's sports.
IceLacrima That’s exactly why there is separation to keep things fair and preventing natural beasts from just winning it all with less work. I’m not saying this case in particular is justified. I’m saying the argument “it’s natural therefore fair” is wrong; or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so, we’d have men and women competing together, and ignore their genetic advantages...
When do they start making the taller basketball players stoop during games? It could be done in the same way it's done with testosterone -- define people statistically as abnormal.
iuvenis animo what’s your point exactly? Most athletes have natural advantages over non-athletes. They’re tall, have better abilities to build muscle, have an advantageous body shape. That’s the point of sports, highlighting human excellence in physical abilities. Semenya and other women like her are being penalized for their natural born advantages despite being born and raised women
Between the Panels but everyone separated men and women for their genetic advantage. So saying uh it’s natural therefore fair is wrong, or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so; you’d have men and women competing with each other:
Olympic committee: Drugs are unethical and unfair, we'll test you to make sure you're not using them Also committee: Take these drugs if you wanna compete
@@chingizzhylkybayev8575 Yes, I do. Both things effect performance, and making certain athletes handicap themselves just because of their natural prowess is wrong. Also, they aren't testing all participants, just ones that look "suspicious." Notice that most of these women are not "conventionally" attractive by Western standards, and that is the metric being used to determine suspicion.
Yeah but most people struggle to really follow any of that stuff, as a man with Klinefelter's I've had to explain this to quite a few people and outside those with a biology or medical degree everybody really struggles to follow it
Well, it glossed over the physical exam part too. Even more so than it did with the chromosomes. You know why? Because this video is about the testosterone tests, not the other two.
Never think that anything made by Vox news is a legitimate educational material. Most of them are either purely entertainment, or politically motivated content
This video is still misinforming people, because it doesn't use the term "intersex" once. That is what Castor is. And it's a big problem for athletics, because athletics, like much of society operates on the assumption that everyone is either a man or a woman.
they're saying that she is not allowed to compete against other women because of the high levels of testosterone which she probably has because she has XY chromosomes just like men.
there is NO doubt testosterone helps you perform especially in long distances, as testosterone doesn't switch on until an hour into effort (warm ups not included) if she produces it naturally, she deserves the medal this is an athletic competition, not a beauty contest
@@adityanayak872 it doesn't take a whole lot of eyesight and understanding to realize that her body is of a very masculine build. Nobody can deny that, and if they do, they're too scared to offend anyone or act out of the political correctness line. She is built like a man. Compete with men.
VOX, I think you forgot to mention that Castor Semenya has XY chormosomes, has no womb nor ovaries and has internal testes. I really wanted to know how these affect a person but I didn't get an answer.
@@MsZsc how is she still a woman? She has xy chromosomes. Doesn't chromosomes determine one's sex? I'm genuinely confused but curious. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It is very hard to actually make the whole tournament completely fair for everyone. This is basically like not allowing a player from playing basketball because he is naturally very tall.
@@thapelomaraisane8705 No. first of all, you can control your weight way more easily compared to your height which relates to your genetics and is basically impossible to change. The fact that weight can be changed easily just makes the rules and regulation very easy to handle. Second of all, it's hard to make a section for each particular range of chromosomes since we dont have that much amount of people to actually hold events as large as the olympics. Now what did you say again?
Maybe it's just me but I've always seen Box as a jumping off point for a topic, something like this is always going to gloss over or skip important information but these are the cliff notes. Vox is about "understanding the news" not presenting it.
My thoughts exactly! Vox is shamelessly dishonest and omitted vital information so as to allow them to misrepresent the actual matter. I'm certain they're deleting all the comments that go against their narrative.
Obviously some athletes are going to have a physical advantage over others this what makes them win Obviously Phelps is not a man he's cheetah running that fast
Mas Abd She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
Moosa27 She has the same cells as men and has 8 times the testosterone of a normal woman. Those are some of the big things that make men, men. (other than genitalia)
@@Moosa27 If she wants to compete as a man, there is nothing stopping her. The IAAF has to make some kind of distinction to tell who can qualify for women's sports. I think they know it's not perfect, there isn't a good alternative. They can't just say: Sex is not clearly defined, so let's throw all the athletes together. They have to draw a line somehow, and that's the best they could come up with.
Some athletes were lucky and born with high testosterone levels, just like the swimmer had big hands and feet. Humans aren’t identical so it’ll never be 100% fair. Do they want every athlete to get medical treatment to be identical? So that everyone has the same starting point? And the competition is fair? I don’t think that’s a good idea.
Fausto Flores Except they're women just like the others. Nobody should be forced to be equal to the others, the point of sports in the first place is to show how naturally dominant a person can be over the other. Otherwise Michael Phelps, Chris Cyborg, Shaquille O'Neil would all be banned because they are "built" in a certain way or look in certain way.
“Testosterone is correlated with lean body mass... but it’s not the only thing that contributes to that” Sure, just like VO2 max isn’t the only thing contributing to endurance, and knowledge isn’t the only thing contributing to Jeopardy performance, etc. However, it is a huge and significantly causative force that gives a substantial advantage. By this logic anabolic steroids shouldn’t be banned because they (mimicking testosterone’s effect) aren’t the only thing contributing to performance.
it's noble of you to sympathize , but such stories are unfortunately inevitable when the criteria that separate between the women/men brackets is being debated. a line has to be drawn somewhere to protect the women's bracket, even though and it's never gonna be perfect .
The problem is more complex than Vox is letting on. Apparently she has no womb no ovaries and has internal testes. I don't know how to think about this.
Exactly! And actually it's a little selfish of her demanding anyone to understand her, but herself never feels what all other athletes that compete against her feel like
Ummm u do know that there are diseases like polysistic ovarian syndrome that causes testosterone to increase rapidly in females right? Even if it is not how we r born... and trust me just by looking at someone u can’t tell that... so that’s just utterly wrong !
I can't believe I watched 12 minutes of a video on a topic from one of the supposedly high-end production channels and learnt *absolutely nothing* on said topic.
It doesn't allow transgender people to compete, which is why they introduced the ridiculous testosterone limits and why we have the problem we have now.
Because they found she had intersex traits, so she never allowed for the results to be published claiming they were 'unscientific' . it was leaked she has no uterus. Look at her wikipedia page for a start it talks about it a bit,
We do have weight classes in many other sports tho. If your possition is that we shouldn't discriminate based on natural ability then why not desegregate sports. Ofc then we'd have the problem that males would vastly out compete against females.
The perfect summary is at 10:08. No matter where or how you choose to draw the line between men and women, someone's going to be unhappily lumped into a category where they don't wish to be. And Vox will make a video about how unfair the whole thing is. But the line still must be drawn somewhere.
@@robertjonker8131 When you put scare quotes on she, you seem to be suggesting that pronouns are defined by chromosomes. Will you explain how pronouns are defined by chromosomes with a citation?
So the very reason why women and men aren’t competing together is because of physical advantage, but why should it be lifted for some individuals, just because they don’t have a donger.
'Testosterone has nothing to do with performance' , *top 3 finishers at 2016 Olympics had naturally high levels of testosterone* it is obvious testosterone is closely linked to performance.
Scientifically speaking it doesn't. If it is not causally linked to performance, which it hasn't been yet, then you cannot say for certain in a scientific factual manner.
But there is no scientific evidence that testosterone is a direct link to high performance. They most likely trained at high performance facilities and had a strict and healthy diet. There is no evidence that states that you could have high testosterone yet not train, eat junk and not maintain good fitness but still be able to win a gold at the olympics
@@alexsinnett6123 That's a false comparison. The untrained high T person would still outperform a untrained low T person. So his point remain correct. Having higher testosterone isn't an automatic win button, its just give you an advantage. Especially, in muscles development where evidence are conclusive. There's a reason why men who transition into women dominate whatever women sport they compete in.
And being tall gives you a distinct advantage in basketball, but nobody's calling for a height limit for that are they? Different features and hormone levels and other factors will affect how well someone does at a particular sport, which of these gets attention and outrage is arbitrary. Why do people care strongly about some and not about others? It's worth considering, as I suspect it's not down to any logic or reason but instead is just because of general biases and expectations people have about men and women.
Why does nobody mention that in the ruling they determined she’s 46 XY DSD which makes her an XY variant of intersex. She has XY in every cell(typical males have this) but has genitalia that dont represent that. You need to include that information (that she is XY) to make a decision
This is a headache: she's BORN that way...high level of testosterone DO enhance performance, otherwise it would be allowed for men. Having said that, if she's BORN with an NATURAL advantage, how's that different from a boxer that has a higher reach even if it's the same height and weight category as his opponent? How's that different from a swimmer who has natural wide and big feet and big long arms vs a short swimmer ? If they measure something (in this case Testosterone levels) then it's time to have racing CATEGORIES...like in boxing..heavier fighters can't fight smaller ones. Similarly, women with under 10 testosterone level run in one category...females who NATURALLY produce over 10 race in another. That seems to be the fairest.
@@johannesziaether3916 It is sad it wasn't an easy decision it was unfair to her but letting her stay was unfair to everyone else. The Olympics made it clear how dominant Intersex athletes are specifically at 800m.
Lisergiko She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
@@alexn.2901 I mean he's completely right as far as I can see. Maybe put forward an alternative argument? I'm interested to see what you disagree with here.
@@rs0582 That's very true. It doesn't seem fair to 'true' women to have to compete against her. But on the other hand, the conditions for her to actually compete are also quite ridiculous. If she is forced to take meds to lower test, she can basically never participate in her natural state ever again, which pretty much goes against the Olympics code of ethics and rules. She also has a very poor chance of winning against males in the same category if she competes in the men's divisions. The Olympics were meant to showcase the best of human athletes in their natural state. She just seems too fast for women, and not fast enough for men. To the world, it just seems like the committee wants Semenya to lose or not compete at all. And if the regulatory committee is so adamant about hormone changing meds, why not push for regular women to actually take test boosting meds in order to compete with Semenya? Just food for thought lol
caveshlin Sadly I don’t think there is a scenario where everyone wins here, but keeping the integrity of women’s sports should always keep priority. Plus giving other atheists more testosterone is both doping, and can have severe side effects. Someone here has to loose, and I’d rather it be one runner than all the other Olympic teams out there with passionate people and a new chance to grasp that gold.
The question still remains - what do we do with people who are intersex? Do we let them complete, if so, where? What category? Who decides which category they compete in?
i don’t think so. People become top athletes due to a mix of natural ability and physical. If woman have naturally higher testosterone levels than thats “natural ability” which makes it easier for them to win. It’s the same as how Michael Phelps has his height or his foot shape. It is just natural ability that these athletes have that helps rise them to the top. I don’t think people should be banned for that.
James Bond how’s it unfair? It’s natural genetic variability, athletes will be different. If you’re talking about these intersex cases then yes I can see how it’s unfair.
@@johnmoore1495 The difference is that this is mass variation, basically all men have higher testosterone levels than basically all women, this is not the case with other things like Michael Phelps feet and height where there are many guys close to his height (I would say 6+ feet is close to 6'4") compared to the massive difference in T levels between genders. The difference both exists in almost all cases when comparing the two genders and its too extreme of an advantage. They should be banned for extreme genetic advantage it already happens with weight classes.
@@rubberband9581 She has a Y chrosome so it gives her physical advantages. She should not allowed to compete in women's sports. It is unfair every other women in that sport.
Yes a bit. It didnt age well.. I Khelif/ Lin yuTing, Mboma, B Griner, Barbra from Zambia, the footballer. Found 12 Dsd males by now, competing at olympic level since 2016.
BROO, how is it 'questioned'' whether high levels of testosterone increases athletic performance. There's an ANOBOLIC (Meaning muscle building) STEROID literally known JUST as ''testosterone''.
@@kylelongjohn837 this reminds me of a line from avatar the last airbender: "Can your science explain why it rains?" the response: "Yes, yes it can!" lel
7:05 It's important to note that the study was not just questioned; a correction was issued by the authors because other researchers found there was a lot of bad data which changed the conclusions significantly.
@@camilo3530 "bad performance"? She was slightly slower (which can affect her placing because she is not nearly as dominate as athletes like Usain Bolt, Phelps, Mike Tyson are or were) and her experts have already dealt with this argument. The medications she was required to take can affect her and others in many more ways one of which is weight gain which would slow down a runner. There are numerous possible explanations from weight, fatigue, affects on circulation, and even psychological effects that could consciously or subconsciously affect her performance. You would just be conflating correlation with causation if you argue it must be because her testosterone is lower.
The Won She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
RS05 but the differences between men and women aren’t just levels of testosterone. That’s part of what the video was talking about. Just because a woman had high testosterone, doesn’t make them a man. Just like if a man has low testosterone, that doesn’t make them a woman. And just like she is not built like a majority of women, doesn’t take away the fact that she’s a woman. They talked about how Michael Phelps has many bodily advantages such as a large torso, double jointed limbs, and webbed feet. But Michael is called lucky for having those natural advantages. As many people have been pointing out in the comments, there are multiple diseases, such as polycystic ovarian syndrome, that cause higher levels of testosterone in women. To women lose their title as women until the disease goes away? Limiting a woman’s right to call herself a woman based on things so literally fluid and arbitrary as testosterone levels is a recipe for disaster. We should be celebrating Semenya and her accomplishments.
Luis Antonio Perez, I’ve actually been swimming for 2 years with my swim team and I’ve never been banned from swimming because I have webbed feet. They don’t even help in the water, since the condition doesn’t web the entire foot, only the two toes next to the big toe. So I don’t see the issue with it, it doesn’t give an advantage, since humans biologically don’t know how to use webbed feet.
"There are many factors that lead to performance, equipment, nutrition etc" These are all world star athletes... You don't beat everyone by like 10 seconds because you had a good breakfast.
Sulagna Nandi some athletes can train harder and therefore achieve higher results, but at the top of their level they wont finish miles ahead of their competitors.
Everything stated in this video is straight forward and easy to understand. Try paying more attention in class if you're struggling to understand the dialogue of this video
as long as there is a women/men brackets in this sport, then there must exist a rigid criteria to separate between them . The nature of this criteria could (and should) be debated , and it's never gonna be perfect , but a line has to be drawn somewhere or else the women bracket is simply doomed.
So vox you’re telling me all the top 3 finishers had higher levels of testosterone and then you’re also telling me that testosterone does not improve performance.
@@willdg8108 If you are talking about testosterone's effect then you are the most wrong person ever. Numerous sdud have linked testosterone to muscle building. Many Medical hurnals the same. If you even went to collage you would know.
Being super tall helps with basketball, some dudes have that trait, many don't. I don't see how having naturally high testerone is any different to that, or Phelps' flippers
If you separate women and men in sports, you will have to define what it means to be a woman or a man. We are now in 2019 and NO definition is no longer an option. Either remove sex from sports or set limits.
@@armstrong4196 - The only one who seems to be "mentally ill" is you, as all I see is an insult and not even the slightest effort on your part to join in the discussion. A very very lame try on your part. Just go play tetris and stop insulting random people on RUclips.
I agree but it’s funny that ‘testosterone =/= higher performance’ but the top 3 athletes at Rio just so happened to also have high testosterone ... so they’re not related, but just VERY coincidental 👀
Mo rose they are related, otherwise TRT and steroids wouldn’t be banned from sports. I don’t know what bullshitery they managed to pull in the courtroom.
@@megano4471 It's not, but this particular correlation has been scientifically tested enough to show a causal connection beyond any reasonable doubt. That's why drugs which increase testosterone levels are considered doping, and illegal.
I'm so disappointed in Vox. I was sure they do try do give checked information from different sources, but in this video, they showed how easily you can manipulate peoples opinion, just by "forgetting" to add some incredibly relevant information (her XY chromosomes). This makes me question all the videos from Vox.
That would mean that this isn't just an attempt to control the bodies of women who are not conventionally feminine or attractive... so of course they're not doing that.
@@aaron6087 lmao what?? it's not men it's the IAAF that implemented the rule of testosterone levels. also it's not about controlling women's femininity/attractiveness, it's about how because a woman doesn't fit the western feminine stereotype she isn't seen as a woman by the media.
@@Jezballz If you read through the Fox News press release about its 2018 ratings wins, you could get the impression of total domination. You’ll learn Fox had its “highest-rated year” and finished the year as the “most-watched basic cable network.” Both sound like big wins, and they are if you are in the cable TV business. Digging into the raw numbers, you might wonder what else is happening on TV, and where the people are. After all, Fox won the race averaging 2.5 million total viewers in prime time and peaking at 3.3 million viewers during Sean Hannity’s show. Those figures range from 1% of the U.S. population watching Hannity to far fewer watching Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingraham. If you multiplied the numbers by five shows per week and 20 shows per month, the figures become huge. However, you’d be counting the same viewers so many times they wouldn’t be accurate. Generally, folks who want to hear about the War on Christmas and other curiosities on Fox News are dedicated viewers. They’re also of a certain age. Of those 3.3 million Hannity viewers, a paltry 643,000 landed in the 25-54 age group. Tucker (557,000) and Ingraham (515,000) also posted small shares of young-to-middle-aged adults. Older Americans are by far the biggest group taking in these broadcasts. ABC News averages 3 times the viewers of Fox News in prime time.
Thank you for the commenters for including what Vox left out. I have reliably counted on Vox to provide information not clouded with advocacy. This video is an outlier. You get an F.
Evan Boyle Oh yeah, because we all know that testosterone kicks in for a small section of distances, but disappear completely if the testosterone limit is reached
The comments here are almost all entirely bad analogies that replace the question with their own irrelevant one. Do you think men and women's sports should be separated? If so, how do you make the distinction between men and women? That's all that matters. Knowing nothing about it, I would think chromosomal testing would be the most straightforward, but the video conspicuously skipped over why that fell out of favor.
It’s called a strawman lol. It is a nuanced area that actually warrants discussions and shouldn’t be a partisan issue. Say another case has somebody with the same relative level of advantage but it’s caused by another type of genetic factor, where do we draw the line in how we draw the line? Is it all about results or is it about what circumstances tend to bring these results?
Because that would require people actually knowing what chromosomes a person has and not everyone has XY or XY. It doesn't always show and it doesn't always match with appearance. It really isn't that straightforward. Like for example a person with testosterone insensitivity has XY chromosomes but they have the body of a woman and the same capabilities as one. Would they compete in the womens catagories or the mens? Or what about people with three chromosomes where do they go? Or what about people that have three chromosomes in some of their cells and not in others? There's the whole problem of testing, what are you going to check every single athelet to make sure they have the chromosomes they think they do? That doesn't sound practical. It not even that the method fell out of favor, it's that people have assumed that you can tell a persons sex just by looking at them for so long that the method was never seen to be nessary. Most people didn't even know intersex people existed so any regulations made weren't made by people who understood the specifics of what they were.
We should just have women and men compete together. Top humans competing. In my opinion is just makes men and women not seem equal when they are competing separate.
@@kylelongjohn837 true but if you've gone through puberty and then you take testosterone suppersents, the heart and such doesn't shrink, some effect of testosterone are unrevesable
Obviously high testosterone does have a positive effect on performance, otherwise men and women would compete together and Semenya wouldn't always win.
@elle - Having a men's level of testosterone would prove to be an advantage when racing against women, not against men. She'll need way more testosterone before she can compete with men on the world stage.
@MFD Dharma I'm just arguing with elle. She is claiming that testosterone, the steroid and performance enhancing drug, has no effect on performance. This is obviously a lie, but I have no opinion on Semenya.
elle - uhhh Serena Williams is probably tested more because she is the best women tennis player. If you are the top 3 of any sport you will get tested far more than anyone else, why would you bother testing last place when it has no effect on the result of competition? I see your point but this is not a rule that discriminates in any racial way, they tested the top 3 finishers who all happened to have extremely high levels of testosterone for women. Testosterone is definitely performance enhancing why does every professional sport test for it? Are they all completely wrong? I find it hard to believe that you can honestly tell yourself that testosterone doesn’t improve performance
I think it's most concerning that they test based on whoever looks most suspicious. If they're going to enforce a standard, it should be all top athletes who are tested.
I agree
Your Boy Mr Mac irrelevant to the video. Most top women will pass the test, the question is what the criteria should be.
Yeah... definitely getting a bit of a eugenics, phrenology, etc. vibe. Foppington would approve.
I think it takes performance into consideration. Kinda like Lance Armstrong consistently winning, or athletes in other sports shattering records quite easily. There is a point where you have to ask if there's a possible leap in human evolution, or a spike in the methods of cheaters.
I'm not saying they cheated, but the difference was enough to force questions.
All top placed athletes plus randomized testing is the policy that is in place.
Testosterone not linked to performance??? Why are steroids banned then?
He never said that. He said that it's not the only factor which means that it shouldn't be the only thing looked at and it certainly shouldn't be the determining factor for who gets to compete.
Testosterone is linked to muscle mass more consistently. And if a person naturally produces high levels of it , then who are you to say that's invalid? Do u want everyone to have same starting point? Then why not engineer athletes. The goal is to provide wqual opportunities. But not everyone is born equal. Albiet, trying to change that I not only whimsical ,that have also failed miserably at it.
P sure how the older testings we're looked down upon , current testings will also be looked down upon in the future.
You weren't listening
No One Specific they were listening, you can’t read, they never said it was the only thing so relax your comment, read again and think before posting it like this other comment should have done
why didn't vox include that she was intersex which makes a big different
Why didn’t they mention her XY chromosomes? That’s incredibly relevant
Doesn't fit with their agenda.
Also she is born that way, she isn't trans.
Source?
I was totally expecting them to explain that she's intersex when they brought up that news outlets wrongly say she's transgender.
@@InfraRedNeck Except that it doesn't Shes intersex, not trans. Which either way she would still be a woman.
Did they seriously do this whole video without mentioning that Semanya is intersex? She's XY. Seems pretty relevant.
And presumably is testosterone is no big deal, then one can only assume there would be no problem with athletes artificially raising their levels, no?
Thank you for pointing that out ...I was waiting for that info.
most athletes use them though, it's just that they don't get caught
xy would make her a man, if she's intersex she's most likely XXY :) don't spread misinformation
@@MBjenny143 Actually,
Intersex can be XY with androgen insensitivity.
Noone said Testostorne wasnt important. They are saying it's strange to make it the test when there are so many other factors.
Thanks to the comments for clearing up that she's intersex and has a Y chromosome. I feel like Vox should have mentioned that
@Cruiser he has a chromosome disorder and he is sort of a man.
@@adhisharavind6393 *she
They mentioned that she is intersex.
But it was mentioned... while not directly.
@@adhisharavind6393 Rude
Athletics is never going to be completely fair. Athletes are supposed to have genetic advantages to one another. That's what makes them good athletes.
Plus hard work and dedication, of course.
True. What makes someone a great athlete has lots to do with natural advantages
That’s exactly why there is separation to keep things fair and preventing natural beasts from just winning it all with less work.
I’m not saying this case in particular is justified. I’m saying the argument, it’s natural therefore fair is wrong; or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so, we’d have men and women competing together, and ignore their genetic advantages...
But it's unfair to put biological men and women in the same events and expect equal opportunity
No one said they’d be completely fair. What point are you trying to make?
I don't know if this is true - but based on some quick internet research I just did, it says the she was born with a y chromosome. I feel like that is relevant to the discussion at hand and the video totally did not mention it. She is an intersex person with characteristics of both sexes.
Also testosterone is definitely a performance enhancer - it is not the only factor but it is a significant factor. That is why drugs that enhance it are banned as PEDs - even in men's sports.
The sad thing is that I feel like they are banning her for competing how she was born. She may have been born intersex and that is giving her an advantage - but shes not cheating to get an advantage. Then at the same time; is it fair to the other women who are competing?
I don't know this is a complicated issue...
Anyway interesting video.
@@CW-yt5kq What do you mean by willfully transgender?
Its not really that complicated if you think about it. Everywhere there are standards. In the military, you have to be a certain weight, height. You can't have any medical deformities without clearance. This is very similar. In order to compete, she would need clearance of these standards. If she can't be cleared to have the same standard as the other women, she shouldn't be allowed to compete. I bet if anything, she could run with the men. Even then, its not like everyone is allowed to compete anyway so why should she be able to when she has a clear advantage against everyone else; not much of a competition if you ask me.
I think it's not fair for her to be conpeting against regular women, just like it's not fair for someone in combat sports to fight in different weight class.
People try to make this much more complicated or racial/sexist than it is. I mean if in future we can do operation that significantly enhances your athletic ability, should that person be allowed to compete against normal people? We have banned doping for exactly this reason, it gives totally unfair edge in competition.
I say to all women. You went through all these years to get equality and a place in the world. Now it seems you are faced with this issue. I would use these obstacles to train harder and keep chasing until you beat these types of obstacles. World is never fair so I say rise above it. In the end everything will work out.
Then she must be allowed to participate in men's athletics
I don’t understand why they changed from chromosome testing to testosterone testing. Especially since we likely have better understanding of intersex individuals than we did in the 1960s. I don’t really approve of many of these regulations, but if any test exists, it seems like it should be more sensible and accurate than hormonal testing.
Your approval is important. I hope to gain it some day.
Those who are intersx could do an Xray so they know where to put them, probably that will give accurate results and not be ambiguous soo, bye.
XY
Vox: Testosterone isn’t the only factor to determine who is success, there’s no scientific backing
Also Vox: the top 3 women from 2016 olympics all have high testosterone
get this some more upvotes!
Tim Evans that is not an applicable example. A correlation is scientifically known as a pattern also. They, CORRELATE so they are related in a pattern. When the top 3 women from 2016 and ones from years prior also get affected by the new regulations that is a correlation/pattern to show that higher testosterone does mean a higher athletic prowess?
Kralj Slovan what agenda is that?
@Tim Evans That was such a swing and miss, dude. Your example killed the little dignity your argument had.
@Tim Evans The 3 fastest women all have have T levels over 5 times the average. "Correlation, not causation" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I'd say 2 things:
- Saying testosterone levels are linked to performance doesn't mean they're THE ONLY determining factor. The video spends two minutes talking about other factors that might play a role in athletic performance as if the claim was "it's all about your testosterone levels".
-Caster Semenya was born with XY chromosomes. I feel like that should be included in the video.
So what now?
You want her to be a man?
@@lu881 But she is a man
@@lu881 she a man bruh
So she’s a he
Luthando Nqakala XY=dude
She was born with XY chromosomes, I can’t believe they didn’t mention this
Edit: As 95% of the comments pointed out, it’s XXY
he*
Because VOX is super left and that Y Chromosome does not fit their narrative.
@@steavenjosey They definitely should've mentioned it but she has characteristics of both sexes, and I don't think it's fair to not let someone run because of how they were born. But she also has a clear advantage over others. So what?
@@darksideorbit8898 I imagine it's because that isn't why she was banned, she was banned because of her testosterone levels. I think one of the most illuminating parts of this video is that only those athletes deemed "suspicious" are subjected to testing. That alone carries the potential for clear discrimination.
She was born with XY chromosomes because she's intersex. Which they mentioned.
I wish Vox had mentioned that she has XXY chromosomes. I would have preferred for more of the video to be about that, because most people don’t have much of a grasp on those genetics, and we would like to learn more. However, I am glad that they pointed out the discrimination in the testing of certain individuals. I’m personally at a loss for how testosterone testing could be better than chromosome testing, so a lesson on intersex would be super informative.
No I’m pretty sure she has XY with androgen (I think that’s what it’s called)
she has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency
That's literal bull she was born a man nothing could be clearer than that it even sounds manlier than a lot of men walking around it looks like a man and has the strength of a man
@@reeldirtiestudios she’s intersex that means that she’s born both a woman and a man and the only one who thinks she walks and talks like a man is you and your toxic masculinity. Grow up.
@@reeldirtiestudios she’s XXY. That’s the facts.
Bolt should of not competed in the Olympics, he was confirmed to be a rare species of cheetah that stands upright.
Lol
He actually confirmed that he’s the manifestation of lightning in an organic form
@@___zeke___7581 why do you think he has *Bolt* in his name
Ruby Rembiszewski, yes *he* what’s your point
@@lovelykitty42 *Bolt* is an "it".
So Vox, you guys sure did leave a lot of people more confused than before they had started to watch this video. Define intersex, make sure to explain the distinction between transgender and intersex, define Semenya's chromosomes. You guys did none of that. Disappointed.
It didn't have to to get the point across.
@@logoslive Semenya has an intersex condition. That information matters.
@@logoslive i was pretty confused and wondering why they didnt just state this simple information
de7io because it doesn’t fit their agenda
@@logoslive If not then why is there so much confusion in the comment section? Try to be more objective please.
If this is such a big deal then why not let people with similar levels of testosterone compete with each other?
because they are very few
Why not make everyone compete with eachother. Then we'll fjnd the actual best
Because as they said, testosterone is not the only factor
That’s going to make things so complicating
Because it's just running. Nobody takes this sport seriously
Vox will argue here that there is no link between testosterone and performance, then in another video will argue that testosterone inhibitors is enough to allow trans women to compete in women’s events
"...it's unclear how testosterone can be singled out as the defining factor."
That's directly from the video. The point isn't to say testosterone has no influence, the point is that it's a complex multifaceted issue, and reducing it to one little molecule doesn't do it justice.
@@WynnofThule But that’s exactly my point - “cannot be singled out” but yet inhibitors (and only on them for a year at that) is enough to see you qualify for women’s events.
She's not trans btw.
@@WynnofThule
And completely skip the point that she is XY
Whatever fits their agenda
“Pull ya pants down, I need to approve you for the olympics”
That's not even enough.
H D
Take their shirt off then?
My doctor told me something similar during my prostate exam, he kept both hands on my shoulder the whole time to keep me calm! What a nice gentleman!
seems legit...
*Nut* *Probe* ! Or, if the results are made public domain or open source - *Gnut* *Probe* !
"You try to run in front of me, and I jump you." New life philosophy.
George Costarica you what mate?
@George Costarica dude go away lmao
💥💥💥💥
George Costarica that’s why Costa Rica losing today to Mexico 🤕
There are a lot of man in front of him, try to jump the tough ones for a change.
God these writers clearly tried to manipulate facts. The reason testosterone is linked to performance is because testosterone has been directly proven to increase muscle mass (hence why steroids are made primarily up of testosterone). As a result, men (because they produce wayyy more testosterone than woman) have more muscle and can perform with higher athletic ability. It’s clearly unfair that someone who was born as a man (and naturally produces testosterone which increases muscle mass) should be allowed to compete against someone who has no ability whatsoever to increase testosterone levels (and as a result muscle mass).
She was not born a man! Please watch till the end before leaving ignorant comments. She was born an intersex woman.
Chiarity she was born with a y chromosome... she possesses the characteristics of both sexes which is why she has far higher testosterone levels than the rest which IS a performance enhancer
Chiarity I think bern k pretty much summed up the point.
@TheProphetPepe Why should you be punished for being born a certain way?. Why can't the women take medical treat meant to higher there testosterone level if they want to compete then?.
Fantan she should be punished because she has a very clearly unfair advantage against the other women. She needs to have her testosterone levels lowered or compete with the men
I'm glad she is a mentally strong woman because all this public scrutiny is embarrassing and psychologically damaging.
Well, dude has a medical condition which allows him to be the father of the two children he has with his wife...also, he got a lot of cash.
The public scrutiny was only a small fee he paid for helping to destroy women's sports.
@@codingwithflavio8534 exactly it's called women sports for a reason trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete
That thing is not a man or a woman. Something else all together.
@@orionfernandes4587 “that thing” bruh
@@oceanusprocellarum6853 Well, One can’t expect to be referred to as a human being when one considers oneself as something inhuman.
Isn't it normal that some people have a natural advantage in certain sports?
I don't get why it would be a big issue in this case.
IceLacrima That’s exactly why there is separation to keep things fair and preventing natural beasts from just winning it all with less work.
I’m not saying this case in particular is justified. I’m saying the argument “it’s natural therefore fair” is wrong; or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so, we’d have men and women competing together, and ignore their genetic advantages...
There is no point in sports and competitions if one specific person wins 90% of time and others have no chances to win.
Yes. strip Phelps of all of his medals. He should not be allowed to compete with regular human beings
So why adults don't compete with children?
When do they start making the taller basketball players stoop during games? It could be done in the same way it's done with testosterone -- define people statistically as abnormal.
Michael Phelps produces less lactic acid in his muscle (I believe that is its name) and nobody complains about his genetic advantage.
iuvenis animo this is rooted in preserving „competitive integrity.“ sex is just another category.
iuvenis animo what’s your point exactly? Most athletes have natural advantages over non-athletes. They’re tall, have better abilities to build muscle, have an advantageous body shape. That’s the point of sports, highlighting human excellence in physical abilities. Semenya and other women like her are being penalized for their natural born advantages despite being born and raised women
Between the Panels but everyone separated men and women for their genetic advantage.
So saying uh it’s natural therefore fair is wrong, or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so; you’d have men and women competing with each other:
Between the Panels and his wing span is the longest swimming and don’t forget his feet, size 14.
@iuvenis animo It's about extraordinary biological advantages. In her case it's to do with her hormones. No one is questioning her sex, genius.
The video conveniently avoids mentioning that Semenya has XY chromosome.
She's intersex but not a man
@@dinahmyte3749 define a man
Gefry Grullon a person who identifies as a man. theres the full definition right there
@@timenspacetraveler7964 And that's your definition
@@timenspacetraveler7964 lol thats why some people says they identify themselves as an apache helicopter because of crazy people like u
8:40 "And she's right. It's entirely unethical to administer drugs to someone who doesn't need them"
It was probably a mistake they should have just banned her outright.
If she doesn't wanna take them she doesn't have to. But she can't compete.
Haha “2020 olympics” Good joke!
Andrew Harron LOL hopefully corona ends soon and 2021Olympics actually happen
Lol
lol
Lol
All of us waiting for karate on olympics
Olympic committee: Drugs are unethical and unfair, we'll test you to make sure you're not using them
Also committee: Take these drugs if you wanna compete
Yep, that accurately sums up their logic.
@Almost Mr. Worldwide Except they DO effect her performance, so...🤷♀️
@@lunamax1214 do you know the difference between affect and enhance?
Chingiz Zhylkybayev she doesn’t even know the difference between effect and affect
@@chingizzhylkybayev8575 Yes, I do. Both things effect performance, and making certain athletes handicap themselves just because of their natural prowess is wrong.
Also, they aren't testing all participants, just ones that look "suspicious." Notice that most of these women are not "conventionally" attractive by Western standards, and that is the metric being used to determine suspicion.
This video glanced over the chromosome part so quickly it sad to see this as educational
@Ad Lockhorst thanks but this isnt how you make friends
Yeah but most people struggle to really follow any of that stuff, as a man with Klinefelter's I've had to explain this to quite a few people and outside those with a biology or medical degree everybody really struggles to follow it
@Ad Lockhorst Glanced is correct too.
Well, it glossed over the physical exam part too. Even more so than it did with the chromosomes. You know why? Because this video is about the testosterone tests, not the other two.
Never think that anything made by Vox news is a legitimate educational material. Most of them are either purely entertainment, or politically motivated content
wait why was her being intersex conveniently ignored?
Because the video has an agender and that goes against it.
They no longer use that as a criteria
Goes against the Vox agenda
It was heavily implied, not ignored. However, I am unsure why they were not more explicit about this.
5:35
so funny how i had only heard about this as a transgender issue, and until watching this i thought she was trans. people rlly be unimformed
Unless the people you heard it from were talking about non trans athletes they weren't uninformed, they were talking about something else.
@big unattractive womane Yeah, you should know, right?
This video is still misinforming people, because it doesn't use the term "intersex" once. That is what Castor is. And it's a big problem for athletics, because athletics, like much of society operates on the assumption that everyone is either a man or a woman.
maybe a sign that you need to seek out better and more responsible news sources?
@@mankytoes ...the video talks about DSD "also known as intersex". It's most definitely mentioned in the video.
Some females with polycystic ovaries have high levels of testosterone, they're basically saying we're not women just because of one hormone.
yuval mor-yosef thats why they should test cromosomes again. we have the tecnology and its more black and white than not
"Science" today does nothing else but destroy nature.
If men have naturally super high test levels they also aren't allowed to compete. It's a fairness thing.
no, they say it would be unfair to compete against other women. Not the same thing.
they're saying that she is not allowed to compete against other women because of the high levels of testosterone which she probably has because she has XY chromosomes just like men.
Its almost as if competitive sports naturally favors people with physiological superiority...🤔
not really...
Bob The Builder do you wanna expand on that?
@@boriswilcox5121 i dont understand sorry
you probably meant to say: "Its almost as if physiological superiority naturally favors people in competitive sports ...🤔"
Blame the Greco-Romans
there is NO doubt testosterone helps you perform
especially in long distances, as testosterone doesn't switch on until an hour into effort (warm ups not included)
if she produces it naturally, she deserves the medal
this is an athletic competition, not a beauty contest
testosterone is the reason men and women has different tournaments, the only issue is which category to put in
@@adityanayak872 it doesn't take a whole lot of eyesight and understanding to realize that her body is of a very masculine build. Nobody can deny that, and if they do, they're too scared to offend anyone or act out of the political correctness line. She is built like a man. Compete with men.
@@adityanayak872 That's where it would be nice if there was a category in the middle for people like that who don't fit in either side.
no, it’s an athletic competition, not a genetic competition
@@dusscode then put men and women together? It is an athletic competition within a genetic competition
VOX, I think you forgot to mention that Castor Semenya has XY chormosomes, has no womb nor ovaries and has internal testes. I really wanted to know how these affect a person but I didn't get an answer.
this comment needs more likes.
Soo she's a man? The the ban is needed.
Intersex but still a woman
Just need to discus whether she has an unfair advantage or not though
@@MsZsc how is she still a woman? She has xy chromosomes. Doesn't chromosomes determine one's sex? I'm genuinely confused but curious. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Wait what? No uterus or ovaries
Taking a drug to reduce your performance is an exact contradiction of the no doping ruling. This group is completely discriminatory
cnn also called Ralph Northam a republican during his scandal
@@aidan2521 thanks
Terri Mullen She is free to not take those drugs and compete in men's events.
exactly my thoughts
@@storyls so then if men take those drugs and fall below 5, can they then run in the womens events? by your logic, you should answer yes
It is very hard to actually make the whole tournament completely fair for everyone. This is basically like not allowing a player from playing basketball because he is naturally very tall.
tt317 exactly, the y chromosome is the whole reason men and women arent competing against each other
@@nick_steele9790 That would be sensible but rules are now made to suit the rare exceptions.
That is an incredibly weak argument. These criteria are similar to weight classes in boxing.
@@thapelomaraisane8705 No. first of all, you can control your weight way more easily compared to your height which relates to your genetics and is basically impossible to change. The fact that weight can be changed easily just makes the rules and regulation very easy to handle. Second of all, it's hard to make a section for each particular range of chromosomes since we dont have that much amount of people to actually hold events as large as the olympics. Now what did you say again?
In no way is that the same.
it infuriates me that the IAAF gives the mildest bans to intentional cheats but has persecuted Semenya for over a decade.
Isnt sport about genetical advantages anyways?
Yeah pretty much
At this point in time, yeah.
Only if you're a guy apparently
No it's about people working on a craft not science experiments
Rebeka Beka mate she’s a ducking man ,
The sheer amount of important information not included by vox is incredible.
Maybe it's just me but I've always seen Box as a jumping off point for a topic, something like this is always going to gloss over or skip important information but these are the cliff notes. Vox is about "understanding the news" not presenting it.
Like what? Also if your username is unironic then idk if you're particularly credible
My thoughts exactly! Vox is shamelessly dishonest and omitted vital information so as to allow them to misrepresent the actual matter. I'm certain they're deleting all the comments that go against their narrative.
@@fairy5668 They have a Y chromosome
..
@@ganeshprem3043 been 3 weeks and your comment hasn’t been removed.
Phelps asserting dominance with that T pose.
3:27
"naturally high levels of testosterone" - if it is natural then she should compete as a woman
well “she” is a dude
@@ULICKMYBUTCRACK you don't understand intersex at all, clearly
@@ULICKMYBUTCRACK bruh if even the World Medical association is with her then maybe you should shut tf up
@@ULICKMYBUTCRACK You couldn’t be in that sport if you were a man. They wouldn’t even allow you in there. You’re just sick in the head
There are many women athletes with relatively high amounts of natural testosterone, yet only certain women are picked for criticism.
She's *genetically gifted.* Every person is *not same.*
You spelt he
Wrong
@@toptechtips187 *She.
@@toptechtips187 9:54
@@SPEARKO100 that's a dude, guy
Obviously some athletes are going to have a physical advantage over others this what makes them win
Obviously Phelps is not a man he's cheetah running that fast
Mas Abd She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
@@rs0582 All your reply still didn't answer the original comment.
Also, she literally has 1 hormone different than other females
Moosa27 She has the same cells as men and has 8 times the testosterone of a normal woman. Those are some of the big things that make men, men. (other than genitalia)
@@Moosa27 If she wants to compete as a man, there is nothing stopping her. The IAAF has to make some kind of distinction to tell who can qualify for women's sports. I think they know it's not perfect, there isn't a good alternative. They can't just say: Sex is not clearly defined, so let's throw all the athletes together. They have to draw a line somehow, and that's the best they could come up with.
exactly
Some athletes were lucky and born with high testosterone levels, just like the swimmer had big hands and feet. Humans aren’t identical so it’ll never be 100% fair. Do they want every athlete to get medical treatment to be identical? So that everyone has the same starting point? And the competition is fair? I don’t think that’s a good idea.
Alva S. Lange thanks for rewording the video
Yeah, but lucky women would not get the opportunity for fame if some doubty man is always there to surpass them in every aspect
Fausto Flores Except they're women just like the others. Nobody should be forced to be equal to the others, the point of sports in the first place is to show how naturally dominant a person can be over the other. Otherwise Michael Phelps, Chris Cyborg, Shaquille O'Neil would all be banned because they are "built" in a certain way or look in certain way.
@@yurandeveloper6958 yeah, i'm in favor of that
But i'm not in favor of letting trans-woman compete with borned-womans
Fausto Flores oh ok, I understand and agree with you. Yes trans women should have a class of their own
“Testosterone is correlated with lean body mass... but it’s not the only thing that contributes to that”
Sure, just like VO2 max isn’t the only thing contributing to endurance, and knowledge isn’t the only thing contributing to Jeopardy performance, etc. However, it is a huge and significantly causative force that gives a substantial advantage.
By this logic anabolic steroids shouldn’t be banned because they (mimicking testosterone’s effect) aren’t the only thing contributing to performance.
I really feel sorry for Semenya . All this intrusion and humiliation .
I sympathize but do not feel sorry. She is a badass and is much stronger than me physically and emotionally!
@@neurosin I agree with you! I also think she would rather have us support her than feel sorry for her.
it's noble of you to sympathize , but such stories are unfortunately inevitable when the criteria that separate between the women/men brackets is being debated.
a line has to be drawn somewhere to protect the women's bracket, even though and it's never gonna be perfect .
The problem is more complex than Vox is letting on. Apparently she has no womb no ovaries and has internal testes. I don't know how to think about this.
I feel bad for the actual women who are getting crushed by this dude no matter how much they train
“It’s not the only factor” but it’s a pretty bloody big one
I don't like how I get this
Don't women get cramps causeing them fatigue
Exactly! And actually it's a little selfish of her demanding anyone to understand her, but herself never feels what all other athletes that compete against her feel like
Yeah, imagine a dude at UFC admitting to taking anabolic steroids for years "They weren't the only factor I won"
Ummm u do know that there are diseases like polysistic ovarian syndrome that causes testosterone to increase rapidly in females right? Even if it is not how we r born... and trust me just by looking at someone u can’t tell that... so that’s just utterly wrong !
To have a complete discourse, Vox needs to mention that Semenya has XY chromosomes.
that would not meet their agenda.
she is intersex tho. It's not that simple scientifically
Man
@@jilliand3713 if that is the case then I do truly feel sorry for Semenya.
She Is intersex that doesn't mean anything
I can't believe I watched 12 minutes of a video on a topic from one of the supposedly high-end production channels and learnt *absolutely nothing* on said topic.
Your video could’ve done a lot better on explaining why chromosomal sex determination fell out of favour.
Yes like the subject ended abruptly and I found myself immediately being like wait what? Wait here don't go, come back here and explain to me!
No because it probably wouldn't support voxs agenda
It doesn't allow transgender people to compete, which is why they introduced the ridiculous testosterone limits and why we have the problem we have now.
Because they found she had intersex traits, so she never allowed for the results to be published claiming they were 'unscientific' . it was leaked she has no uterus. Look at her wikipedia page for a start it talks about it a bit,
They did explain it, the wide variety of ways you can be classified as intersex disqualified many women but never applied it to men.
Yeah, this feels like a no-win situation.
@Alex C yes
Alex C I like you
@@alexc7857 you guys have the same name :0
@@Ah_liyah that's because we are the same person
@@gruntingskunk2237 ❤
You don't ban the tallest basketball players because they have a genetic advantage over the shorter players.
exactly
PREACH.
sirkowski ikr
Exactly
We do have weight classes in many other sports tho. If your possition is that we shouldn't discriminate based on natural ability then why not desegregate sports.
Ofc then we'd have the problem that males would vastly out compete against females.
So should we disqualify basketball players over 7 feet now for "unfair advantages"?
The perfect summary is at 10:08.
No matter where or how you choose to draw the line between men and women, someone's going to be unhappily lumped into a category where they don't wish to be. And Vox will make a video about how unfair the whole thing is.
But the line still must be drawn somewhere.
Not by old white men
Thank you
Taran Van Hemert I was like wait a minute is that the Taran from... It is, it’s Taran from LTT.
How about draw it at chromosomes. Semenya has xy chromosomes. That gives her the abilities of a man
@@123Althor True. After all, what have old white men ever contributed to civilization.
Off course Fox News called her trans. It makes complete sense. It fits their narrative and gets their audience all riled up.
Yeah, (s)he's intersex.
@@GhostSamaritan she has DSD but that's doesn't change the fact that she has 2 x chromosomes. She is a woman. Period.
@@Paul94096 yeah except "she" had xy chromosomes
@@robertjonker8131 When you put scare quotes on she, you seem to be suggesting that pronouns are defined by chromosomes. Will you explain how pronouns are defined by chromosomes with a citation?
It is a human.
Honestly, how she isn’t depressed and suicidal is beyond me. Imagine the whole world debating if you are a woman or not.
C.L Mckenzie she is super strong and fierce. I follow her on IG.
probs all that testosterone
@@brendanwasnothere lol im ded
She is a strong woman! 💪🏿
i know right he is a guy
Why chromosomes are not considered the standard, I don't get it.
They are.
That's the thing, she has an xxy chromosome so that's what causes the higher testosterone but not high enough to be on equal footing with men
@@blitszina2570 but enough to make it an unequal footing with women.
@@Sapphiregriffin then where should she be then? It's unfair to deny her on something she has no control over
@@blitszina2570 Put them in the special olympics
All this information shows me is that her body was created to be a beast at sports, and damn right she should take advantage of it!
DC Infinity ikr
It's been proven she has XY chromesomes
He has internal testes
You're right no need for womb and ovaries and internal testes a beast indeed.
So the very reason why women and men aren’t competing together is because of physical advantage, but why should it be lifted for some individuals, just because they don’t have a donger.
'Testosterone has nothing to do with performance' , *top 3 finishers at 2016 Olympics had naturally high levels of testosterone* it is obvious testosterone is closely linked to performance.
Scientifically speaking it doesn't. If it is not causally linked to performance, which it hasn't been yet, then you cannot say for certain in a scientific factual manner.
But there is no scientific evidence that testosterone is a direct link to high performance. They most likely trained at high performance facilities and had a strict and healthy diet. There is no evidence that states that you could have high testosterone yet not train, eat junk and not maintain good fitness but still be able to win a gold at the olympics
Correlation is not causation
@@alexsinnett6123 That's a false comparison. The untrained high T person would still outperform a untrained low T person. So his point remain correct. Having higher testosterone isn't an automatic win button, its just give you an advantage. Especially, in muscles development where evidence are conclusive. There's a reason why men who transition into women dominate whatever women sport they compete in.
And being tall gives you a distinct advantage in basketball, but nobody's calling for a height limit for that are they?
Different features and hormone levels and other factors will affect how well someone does at a particular sport, which of these gets attention and outrage is arbitrary. Why do people care strongly about some and not about others? It's worth considering, as I suspect it's not down to any logic or reason but instead is just because of general biases and expectations people have about men and women.
Why does nobody mention that in the ruling they determined she’s 46 XY DSD which makes her an XY variant of intersex. She has XY in every cell(typical males have this) but has genitalia that dont represent that. You need to include that information (that she is XY) to make a decision
Thank you! I remember reading that somewhere. Had she been classified as intersex at birth this wouldn’t be an issue.
This is a headache: she's BORN that way...high level of testosterone DO enhance performance, otherwise it would be allowed for men.
Having said that, if she's BORN with an NATURAL advantage, how's that different from a boxer that has a higher reach even if it's the same height and weight category as his opponent? How's that different from a swimmer who has natural wide and big feet and big long arms vs a short swimmer ?
If they measure something (in this case Testosterone levels) then it's time to have racing CATEGORIES...like in boxing..heavier fighters can't fight smaller ones. Similarly, women with under 10 testosterone level run in one category...females who NATURALLY produce over 10 race in another. That seems to be the fairest.
Yes and she was born with an XY chromosome..
@@haywoodjblome4768
Ig she was born as XXY
@@johannesziaether3916 No 46xy
@@Paul-vf2wl it's sad tho she always played with women and she suddenly she has to leave.... Because she wasn't doing it as a trick.
@@johannesziaether3916 It is sad it wasn't an easy decision it was unfair to her but letting her stay was unfair to everyone else. The Olympics made it clear how dominant Intersex athletes are specifically at 800m.
"...and news outlets have wrongly portrayed her as transgender."
Damn, *FOX* lived up to my expectations. Exactly what i hoped it would.😂😂
@Tobby Isiba and you are saying based on what?
Mautik Ganvir you have such a brainwashed mind
@@warrior_of_liberation do you really trust what Fox say?
@@mitchellbaker2872 You are always welcomed to correct me.
Mautik Ganvir She is intersex I believe, but with XY chromosomes she has a biological advantage, that no woman can complete with.
Next up: People over 2metres tall won't be able to play basketball.
Lisergiko She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
@@rs0582 🙄🙄🙄🙄
@@alexn.2901 I mean he's completely right as far as I can see. Maybe put forward an alternative argument? I'm interested to see what you disagree with here.
@@rs0582 That's very true. It doesn't seem fair to 'true' women to have to compete against her. But on the other hand, the conditions for her to actually compete are also quite ridiculous. If she is forced to take meds to lower test, she can basically never participate in her natural state ever again, which pretty much goes against the Olympics code of ethics and rules. She also has a very poor chance of winning against males in the same category if she competes in the men's divisions. The Olympics were meant to showcase the best of human athletes in their natural state. She just seems too fast for women, and not fast enough for men.
To the world, it just seems like the committee wants Semenya to lose or not compete at all. And if the regulatory committee is so adamant about hormone changing meds, why not push for regular women to actually take test boosting meds in order to compete with Semenya? Just food for thought lol
caveshlin Sadly I don’t think there is a scenario where everyone wins here, but keeping the integrity of women’s sports should always keep priority. Plus giving other atheists more testosterone is both doping, and can have severe side effects. Someone here has to loose, and I’d rather it be one runner than all the other Olympic teams out there with passionate people and a new chance to grasp that gold.
11:11 “you try to be in front of me, I jump you”
Wise words said
NZL_ Vernice "thats how life is" my new role model
@@ryanmarie4461 Thats how life *it* is*
@Daniel Kalz ?
Erianuoluwa Ogunwole He*
I am a woman who can grow a beard, naturally. But I could never in a million years run a race like her.
That's more common than you might think
Funny how this video doesn't mention that Semenya was born with XY chromosomes...
Do you have a link to a statement that says that from either her or the committee?
Wheres your receipts
Because it's irrelevant.
How convenient, VOX
and steroid abuse, especially trenbolone, nandrolone, test cypionate, test enanthate, test undecanoate
This video was missing some info that wasn't clarified completely.
Alexander Muñoz ?
Pretty sure this vid would be a 2 hour movie instead of a 12 minute video if they went to detail
@@nathanj2439 True
Bennett Graham he has xy chromosomes, vox completely left out that fact
She has XY chromosomes (something you conveniently forgot to mention) AND excessive testosterone levels. Where do we draw the line?
Spread this every where, the fact that she refused to deny the rumors by not releasing her test results is very telling
She's intersex... They discussed this
sex at birth duh
He*
we draw the line with the chromosomes
Why can’t they just use what’s written on their birth certificate. I think that is a pretty standard measure no tests needed.
Lol that doesn’t apply to intersex you boomer
I don’t understand. What’s not accurate about chromosome testing?
Feelings
Vox
The question still remains - what do we do with people who are intersex? Do we let them complete, if so, where? What category? Who decides which category they compete in?
@@danadomino Two Olympic intersex categories need to be established.
@@danadomino intersex Olympics whatever that is
If all the best athletes have too much testosterone, doesn't that say something?!
I'm confused but they don't.
i don’t think so. People become top athletes due to a mix of natural ability and physical. If woman have naturally higher testosterone levels than thats “natural ability” which makes it easier for them to win. It’s the same as how Michael Phelps has his height or his foot shape. It is just natural ability that these athletes have that helps rise them to the top. I don’t think people should be banned for that.
James Bond how’s it unfair? It’s natural genetic variability, athletes will be different.
If you’re talking about these intersex cases then yes I can see how it’s unfair.
@@johnmoore1495 The difference is that this is mass variation, basically all men have higher testosterone levels than basically all women, this is not the case with other things like Michael Phelps feet and height where there are many guys close to his height (I would say 6+ feet is close to 6'4") compared to the massive difference in T levels between genders. The difference both exists in almost all cases when comparing the two genders and its too extreme of an advantage. They should be banned for extreme genetic advantage it already happens with weight classes.
Scrolled down to see the comments
that was a mistake.
lol I bet 90% of the people getting upset here have never even watched more than an hour of the Olympics before.
so much transphobia and she's not even trans 😩 (yes: SHE)
@@rubberband9581 She has a Y chrosome so it gives her physical advantages. She should not allowed to compete in women's sports. It is unfair every other women in that sport.
It’s not even transphobia it’s just plain logic, and logic doesn’t care about your or your feelings.
fr the amount of ignorance here-
This video is confusing and seems bised towards identity politics ideology...
Yes a bit. It didnt age well.. I Khelif/ Lin yuTing, Mboma, B Griner, Barbra from Zambia, the footballer. Found 12 Dsd males by now, competing at olympic level since 2016.
You kinda have to decide tho. If people can compete as whatever in whatever then there is no reason to seperate sports in the first place.
@@derpmansderpyskin Meh, there is a pretty obvious reason they are segregated.
@@derpmansderpyskin People want women to have a chance at competing and winning, that is all there is to it.
Good luck with that, give it a decade and women athletes are going to become extinct.
@@derpmansderpyskin Yes we do.. weight classes for one.. and the fact that you won't make it on the basketball team if you're short.
Fully agreed. There should be levels based on mass and performance for example.
BROO, how is it 'questioned'' whether high levels of testosterone increases athletic performance. There's an ANOBOLIC (Meaning muscle building) STEROID literally known JUST as ''testosterone''.
Because there is no science research that backs it up. Read a book
@@minimisaki1511 yeah there is. Lots. Lots and lots.
Kyle Longjohn ikr the fact that people are arguing this if she was so good she would take the testosterone lowering meds
@@kylelongjohn837 this reminds me of a line from avatar the last airbender: "Can your science explain why it rains?" the response: "Yes, yes it can!" lel
@@minimisaki1511 You're either completely indoctrinated or willfuly ignorant. Either way you should take your own advice
7:05
It's important to note that the study was not just questioned; a correction was issued by the authors because other researchers found there was a lot of bad data which changed the conclusions significantly.
Do you have info on the correction and conclusion change?
[Citation needed]
Good comment
How do you explain Semenya bad performance after she was forced to take pills to decrese her testosterone level?
@@camilo3530 "bad performance"?
She was slightly slower (which can affect her placing because she is not nearly as dominate as athletes like Usain Bolt, Phelps, Mike Tyson are or were) and her experts have already dealt with this argument. The medications she was required to take can affect her and others in many more ways one of which is weight gain which would slow down a runner. There are numerous possible explanations from weight, fatigue, affects on circulation, and even psychological effects that could consciously or subconsciously affect her performance. You would just be conflating correlation with causation if you argue it must be because her testosterone is lower.
Simple. Women w high testosterone.. Athlete
Man trying to compete as a women.. not athlete
Yes u right idk why no one gets that
Well, she indetifies herself as a woman but she got XXY chromosomes.
Michael Phelps has naturally webbed feet granting a boost in speed. "stRiP hiM oF HiS meDaLs."
The Won She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
RS05 but the differences between men and women aren’t just levels of testosterone. That’s part of what the video was talking about. Just because a woman had high testosterone, doesn’t make them a man. Just like if a man has low testosterone, that doesn’t make them a woman.
And just like she is not built like a majority of women, doesn’t take away the fact that she’s a woman. They talked about how Michael Phelps has many bodily advantages such as a large torso, double jointed limbs, and webbed feet. But Michael is called lucky for having those natural advantages.
As many people have been pointing out in the comments, there are multiple diseases, such as polycystic ovarian syndrome, that cause higher levels of testosterone in women. To women lose their title as women until the disease goes away?
Limiting a woman’s right to call herself a woman based on things so literally fluid and arbitrary as testosterone levels is a recipe for disaster. We should be celebrating Semenya and her accomplishments.
@@rs0582 I see that you are replying in almost everyone's comment.
Cra-zy Vi-bez I’m not going to type out the same thing over and over again when I can just be lazy
Luis Antonio Perez, I’ve actually been swimming for 2 years with my swim team and I’ve never been banned from swimming because I have webbed feet. They don’t even help in the water, since the condition doesn’t web the entire foot, only the two toes next to the big toe. So I don’t see the issue with it, it doesn’t give an advantage, since humans biologically don’t know how to use webbed feet.
"There are many factors that lead to performance, equipment, nutrition etc" These are all world star athletes... You don't beat everyone by like 10 seconds because you had a good breakfast.
hahah
But is a big factor too. I’m pretty sure even if you have good nutrition, you don’t train like those athletes.
Sulagna Nandi yes but those athletes train the same way, i.e. the hardest they can. So it doesn’t really make that huge of diference.
Sulagna Nandi some athletes can train harder and therefore achieve higher results, but at the top of their level they wont finish miles ahead of their competitors.
La pin Yeah you would think so but bolt set his WR with a 2 meter distance.
This video is filled with so much mental gymnastics that it qualifies for a gold medal.
How though...?
Everything stated in this video is straight forward and easy to understand. Try paying more attention in class if you're struggling to understand the dialogue of this video
@@suriko- Nobody said its hard to understand. Its about making questions how right/factual is this video, and how much is it just their agenda.
Vox in Tokyo 2020
I don't know if it came to any confusion tho
They’ll call you a man when you’re too good
as long as there is a women/men brackets in this sport, then there must exist a rigid criteria to separate between them .
The nature of this criteria could (and should) be debated , and it's never gonna be perfect , but a line has to be drawn somewhere or else the women bracket is simply doomed.
I Agree
she's a woman so... maybe put her in the woman's bracket?
Manuel Montero but according to what Definition? She has XY Chromosomes and a high Testosteron level.
wow finally someone here who is actually sane!
@@PR-hl9pm witha missing sry gene. she's a woman.
So vox you’re telling me all the top 3 finishers had higher levels of testosterone and then you’re also telling me that testosterone does not improve performance.
The effect is actually very negligible. Correlation =/= causation.
@@willdg8108 If you are talking about testosterone's effect then you are the most wrong person ever. Numerous sdud have linked testosterone to muscle building. Many Medical hurnals the same. If you even went to collage you would know.
Testosterone is a steroid.
Will DG you do realize that when you take a steroid it’s increasing your testosterone enabling you to build more muscle
Being super tall helps with basketball, some dudes have that trait, many don't. I don't see how having naturally high testerone is any different to that, or Phelps' flippers
"The data has been questioned by members of the scientific community." Shows an article from the Guardian
@Rielly GRIEVE but its guardian
@Rielly GRIEVE Show the actual paper where scientists are refuting the data.
This ad hominem makes no valid point whatsoever.
@@NotDaveGahan Do you even know what "ad-hominem" means? Stop throwing around big words to look yourself smart.
We’re with you Caster!🇿🇦
She’s intersex, she shouldn’t compete with women or men. Other women got cheated because of her
@@jcxkzhgco3050 wa phapha aona di facts
If you separate women and men in sports, you will have to define what it means to be a woman or a man.
We are now in 2019 and NO definition is no longer an option.
Either remove sex from sports or set limits.
Edward Lemming 👈 another mentally ill punk.
@@armstrong4196 - The only one who seems to be "mentally ill" is you, as all I see is an insult and not even the slightest effort on your part to join in the discussion.
A very very lame try on your part.
Just go play tetris and stop insulting random people on RUclips.
@@Junyo I mean getting criticism whether god or bad doesn't make you I'll but you calling back your accuser mentally ill makes you both the same.
Bad idea. Women would get crushed
biology
I agree but it’s funny that ‘testosterone =/= higher performance’ but the top 3 athletes at Rio just so happened to also have high testosterone ...
so they’re not related, but just VERY coincidental 👀
Mo rose they are related, otherwise TRT and steroids wouldn’t be banned from sports. I don’t know what bullshitery they managed to pull in the courtroom.
Let’s not forget that correlation does not equal causation
@@megano4471 But... But... But... It's proven...
Mo rose correlation is not the same thing as causation lmak
@@megano4471 It's not, but this particular correlation has been scientifically tested enough to show a causal connection beyond any reasonable doubt. That's why drugs which increase testosterone levels are considered doping, and illegal.
I'm so disappointed in Vox. I was sure they do try do give checked information from different sources, but in this video, they showed how easily you can manipulate peoples opinion, just by "forgetting" to add some incredibly relevant information (her XY chromosomes). This makes me question all the videos from Vox.
So history is repeating itself with that Algerian boxer!
One question that I have is whether or not they should start barring males with certain levels of testosterone because it affects others.
Scott Bub that already is a rule
best question
That would mean that this isn't just an attempt to control the bodies of women who are not conventionally feminine or attractive... so of course they're not doing that.
@@QwertyCaesar Why would men want to control the femininity/attractiveness of women in sports?
@@aaron6087 lmao what?? it's not men it's the IAAF that implemented the rule of testosterone levels. also it's not about controlling women's femininity/attractiveness, it's about how because a woman doesn't fit the western feminine stereotype she isn't seen as a woman by the media.
Let men and women compete against each other. Problem solved.
lol
I would say yes, but for sports like running women would just not be able to complete. It would destroy so many athletes
There would be little to no woman competing.. men are faster, stronger and have quicker reaction time..
Odd Penguin no i think most of them are smart enough not to accept that challenge
😅😅😂😂😭😭
No
Of course Fox news labelled her transgender, classic fox, "fair and balanced"
And #1 in cable news.
@@Jezballz If you read through the Fox News press release about its 2018 ratings wins, you could get the impression of total domination. You’ll learn Fox had its “highest-rated year” and finished the year as the “most-watched basic cable network.” Both sound like big wins, and they are if you are in the cable TV business.
Digging into the raw numbers, you might wonder what else is happening on TV, and where the people are. After all, Fox won the race averaging 2.5 million total viewers in prime time and peaking at 3.3 million viewers during Sean Hannity’s show. Those figures range from 1% of the U.S. population watching Hannity to far fewer watching Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingraham.
If you multiplied the numbers by five shows per week and 20 shows per month, the figures become huge. However, you’d be counting the same viewers so many times they wouldn’t be accurate. Generally, folks who want to hear about the War on Christmas and other curiosities on Fox News are dedicated viewers.
They’re also of a certain age. Of those 3.3 million Hannity viewers, a paltry 643,000 landed in the 25-54 age group. Tucker (557,000) and Ingraham (515,000) also posted small shares of young-to-middle-aged adults. Older Americans are by far the biggest group taking in these broadcasts.
ABC News averages 3 times the viewers of Fox News in prime time.
Fox viewers never had proper sex ed, lol.
@@cob571 more views =/= more correct. \
Thank you for the commenters for including what Vox left out.
I have reliably counted on Vox to provide information not clouded with advocacy. This video is an outlier. You get an F.
Dude this channel has such an agenda
I dont understand why they only put the ban on 400meters to a mile why not all of it that's just bull.
Because that’s what is most affected my high levels of testosterone
By *
Evan Boyle Oh yeah, because we all know that testosterone kicks in for a small section of distances, but disappear completely if the testosterone limit is reached
Thats stamina based and stamina is related to muscle efficiency and muscle efficiency and size depend on testosterone level soo.......
Because those are the events Caster competes in. They deliberately targeted her.
The comments here are almost all entirely bad analogies that replace the question with their own irrelevant one. Do you think men and women's sports should be separated? If so, how do you make the distinction between men and women? That's all that matters. Knowing nothing about it, I would think chromosomal testing would be the most straightforward, but the video conspicuously skipped over why that fell out of favor.
This
It’s called a strawman lol. It is a nuanced area that actually warrants discussions and shouldn’t be a partisan issue. Say another case has somebody with the same relative level of advantage but it’s caused by another type of genetic factor, where do we draw the line in how we draw the line? Is it all about results or is it about what circumstances tend to bring these results?
Because that would require people actually knowing what chromosomes a person has and not everyone has XY or XY. It doesn't always show and it doesn't always match with appearance. It really isn't that straightforward. Like for example a person with testosterone insensitivity has XY chromosomes but they have the body of a woman and the same capabilities as one. Would they compete in the womens catagories or the mens? Or what about people with three chromosomes where do they go? Or what about people that have three chromosomes in some of their cells and not in others? There's the whole problem of testing, what are you going to check every single athelet to make sure they have the chromosomes they think they do? That doesn't sound practical.
It not even that the method fell out of favor, it's that people have assumed that you can tell a persons sex just by looking at them for so long that the method was never seen to be nessary. Most people didn't even know intersex people existed so any regulations made weren't made by people who understood the specifics of what they were.
Her XY test found she had intersex results, look it up. She buried the results so she can continues pretending to be a women.
please explain why chromosomal testing was replaced with testosterone testing.
Politics basically.
@Natalie MayoChromosomal testing is just a test which in itself is not capable of allowing or disallowing anything.
We should just have women and men compete together. Top humans competing. In my opinion is just makes men and women not seem equal when they are competing separate.
“Other factors like heart size and VO2 max...” WHICH MEN HAVE MORE OF
Thanks to....... you guessed it. Testosterone!!!
Exactly what I thought after hearing that comment. Those other factors are ALL attributed to higher levels of testosterone.
Yeah, i scrolled down just to look for this comment.
@@kylelongjohn837 true but if you've gone through puberty and then you take testosterone suppersents, the heart and such doesn't shrink, some effect of testosterone are unrevesable
Man it's like testosterone makes. You grow bigger.....
Obviously high testosterone does have a positive effect on performance, otherwise men and women would compete together and Semenya wouldn't always win.
@elle - Having a men's level of testosterone would prove to be an advantage when racing against women, not against men. She'll need way more testosterone before she can compete with men on the world stage.
@MFD Dharma I'm just arguing with elle. She is claiming that testosterone, the steroid and performance enhancing drug, has no effect on performance. This is obviously a lie, but I have no opinion on Semenya.
Obviously being tall has a positive effect on playing basketball, too
elle - so by you’re logic woman and men should race together.... don’t you think that would be even worse discrimination against woman....
elle - uhhh Serena Williams is probably tested more because she is the best women tennis player. If you are the top 3 of any sport you will get tested far more than anyone else, why would you bother testing last place when it has no effect on the result of competition? I see your point but this is not a rule that discriminates in any racial way, they tested the top 3 finishers who all happened to have extremely high levels of testosterone for women. Testosterone is definitely performance enhancing why does every professional sport test for it? Are they all completely wrong? I find it hard to believe that you can honestly tell yourself that testosterone doesn’t improve performance
It's unfair to everyone involved, so the issue needs to be solved.
Men should not be a loud to compete with women, the women will have no chance
@@Mr._Turtle4587 Watch out. Sexist people might start saying women need to go back in the kitchen and stop playing sports. I've seen it happen.
@@Mr._Turtle4587 Did you even watch the video? This isn't about transgenderism. It's about a biological woman with high hormone levels. Still a woman.
@@arthurbaker1592 he was born with xy chromosomes which was not included in this facts hiding video
@@sakshamsengarO_o source?
That is like saying people who are too tall can’t compete in basketball… Like their physiology favors them in the sport and that is normal