The problem with sex testing in sports
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2019
- Caster Semenya’s court case is the latest chapter in a long and confusing history.
Try Dashlane free here: www.dashlane.com/vox - Get 10% off now with my promo code: VOX
This spring, the Court of Arbitration for Sport upheld rules imposed by the International Association of Athletic Federations (IAAF) limiting the participation of female athletes with high levels of testosterone. On the other side of the decision was Caster Semenya: a South African runner who has repeatedly been penalized by sports officials throughout her career. The IAAF has gone through many iterations of their female regulations throughout the past decade, and Caster Semenya has been targeted with each successive policy. Most recently, the regulation has been a testosterone limit of five nanomoles per liter.
Throughout the past decade, the media has been following Semenya's story closely and shaping a narrative that is often misguided or inaccurate. In this video we piece together the underlying issues relevant to sex testing in sports and contextualize them within the long history of scrutinizing female athletes. By covering the controversy surrounding 2016 women’s 800 meters Olympic gold medalist Caster Semenya, along with historical events concerning Polish sprinter Ewa Klobukowska and Indian sprinter Dutee Chand, the goal is to help explain how athletic officials have repeatedly failed in their attempt to establish definitive sex testing regulations for female competitors.
Sources:
Sex, gender, DSD, and other terminology:
www.familyfoundation.org/biolo...
www.seattlechildrens.org/clin...
interactadvocates.org/
www.nhs.uk/conditions/disorde...
www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/t...
IAAF policy:
www.iaaf.org/news/iaaf-news/i...
www.iaaf.org/news/press-relea...
www.utpjournals.press/doi/pdf...
medicine.yale.edu/rnacenter/a...
IAAF study:
bjsm.bmj.com/content/51/17/1309
IAAF study criticism and research:
www.sportsintegrityinitiative...
www.sportsintegrityinitiative...
Testosterone research:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2...
link.springer.com/article/10....
Olympic data:
www.olympic.org/women-in-spor...
www.olympic.org/women-in-spor...
Vox.com is a news website that helps you cut through the noise and understand what's really driving the events in the headlines. Check out www.vox.com.
Watch our full video catalog: goo.gl/IZONyE
Follow Vox on Facebook: goo.gl/U2g06o
Or Twitter: goo.gl/XFrZ5H
Testosterone not linked to performance??? Why are steroids banned then?
He never said that. He said that it's not the only factor which means that it shouldn't be the only thing looked at and it certainly shouldn't be the determining factor for who gets to compete.
Testosterone is linked to muscle mass more consistently. And if a person naturally produces high levels of it , then who are you to say that's invalid? Do u want everyone to have same starting point? Then why not engineer athletes. The goal is to provide wqual opportunities. But not everyone is born equal. Albiet, trying to change that I not only whimsical ,that have also failed miserably at it.
P sure how the older testings we're looked down upon , current testings will also be looked down upon in the future.
You weren't listening
No One Specific they were listening, you can’t read, they never said it was the only thing so relax your comment, read again and think before posting it like this other comment should have done
why didn't vox include that she was intersex which makes a big different
I think it's most concerning that they test based on whoever looks most suspicious. If they're going to enforce a standard, it should be all top athletes who are tested.
I agree
Your Boy Mr Mac irrelevant to the video. Most top women will pass the test, the question is what the criteria should be.
Yeah... definitely getting a bit of a eugenics, phrenology, etc. vibe. Foppington would approve.
The suspicion is actually based on the history of performance. Not on athlete's looks as implied in the video.
I think it takes performance into consideration. Kinda like Lance Armstrong consistently winning, or athletes in other sports shattering records quite easily. There is a point where you have to ask if there's a possible leap in human evolution, or a spike in the methods of cheaters.
I'm not saying they cheated, but the difference was enough to force questions.
Did they seriously do this whole video without mentioning that Semanya is intersex? She's XY. Seems pretty relevant.
And presumably is testosterone is no big deal, then one can only assume there would be no problem with athletes artificially raising their levels, no?
Thank you for pointing that out ...I was waiting for that info.
most athletes use them though, it's just that they don't get caught
xy would make her a man, if she's intersex she's most likely XXY :) don't spread misinformation
@@MBjenny143 Actually,
Intersex can be XY with androgen insensitivity.
Noone said Testostorne wasnt important. They are saying it's strange to make it the test when there are so many other factors.
I wish Vox had mentioned that she has XXY chromosomes. I would have preferred for more of the video to be about that, because most people don’t have much of a grasp on those genetics, and we would like to learn more. However, I am glad that they pointed out the discrimination in the testing of certain individuals. I’m personally at a loss for how testosterone testing could be better than chromosome testing, so a lesson on intersex would be super informative.
No I’m pretty sure she has XY with androgen (I think that’s what it’s called)
she has 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency
That's literal bull she was born a man nothing could be clearer than that it even sounds manlier than a lot of men walking around it looks like a man and has the strength of a man
@@reeldirtiestudios she’s intersex that means that she’s born both a woman and a man and the only one who thinks she walks and talks like a man is you and your toxic masculinity. Grow up.
@@reeldirtiestudios she’s XXY. That’s the facts.
Athletics is never going to be completely fair. Athletes are supposed to have genetic advantages to one another. That's what makes them good athletes.
Plus hard work and dedication, of course.
True. What makes someone a great athlete has lots to do with natural advantages
That’s exactly why there is separation to keep things fair and preventing natural beasts from just winning it all with less work.
I’m not saying this case in particular is justified. I’m saying the argument, it’s natural therefore fair is wrong; or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so, we’d have men and women competing together, and ignore their genetic advantages...
But it's unfair to put biological men and women in the same events and expect equal opportunity
No one said they’d be completely fair. What point are you trying to make?
Why didn’t they mention her XY chromosomes? That’s incredibly relevant
Doesn't fit with their agenda.
Also she is born that way, she isn't trans.
Source?
I was totally expecting them to explain that she's intersex when they brought up that news outlets wrongly say she's transgender.
@@InfraRedNeck Except that it doesn't Shes intersex, not trans. Which either way she would still be a woman.
Vox will argue here that there is no link between testosterone and performance, then in another video will argue that testosterone inhibitors is enough to allow trans women to compete in women’s events
"...it's unclear how testosterone can be singled out as the defining factor."
That's directly from the video. The point isn't to say testosterone has no influence, the point is that it's a complex multifaceted issue, and reducing it to one little molecule doesn't do it justice.
@@WynnofThule But that’s exactly my point - “cannot be singled out” but yet inhibitors (and only on them for a year at that) is enough to see you qualify for women’s events.
She's not trans btw.
@@WynnofThule
And completely skip the point that she is XY
Whatever fits their agenda
it infuriates me that the IAAF gives the mildest bans to intentional cheats but has persecuted Semenya for over a decade.
Vox: Testosterone isn’t the only factor to determine who is success, there’s no scientific backing
Also Vox: the top 3 women from 2016 olympics all have high testosterone
get this some more upvotes!
Tim Evans that is not an applicable example. A correlation is scientifically known as a pattern also. They, CORRELATE so they are related in a pattern. When the top 3 women from 2016 and ones from years prior also get affected by the new regulations that is a correlation/pattern to show that higher testosterone does mean a higher athletic prowess?
Kralj Slovan what agenda is that?
@Tim Evans That was such a swing and miss, dude. Your example killed the little dignity your argument had.
@Tim Evans The 3 fastest women all have have T levels over 5 times the average. "Correlation, not causation" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
“Pull ya pants down, I need to approve you for the olympics”
That's not even enough.
H D
Take their shirt off then?
My doctor told me something similar during my prostate exam, he kept both hands on my shoulder the whole time to keep me calm! What a nice gentleman!
seems legit...
*Nut* *Probe* ! Or, if the results are made public domain or open source - *Gnut* *Probe* !
I don’t understand why they changed from chromosome testing to testosterone testing. Especially since we likely have better understanding of intersex individuals than we did in the 1960s. I don’t really approve of many of these regulations, but if any test exists, it seems like it should be more sensible and accurate than hormonal testing.
Your approval is important. I hope to gain it some day.
Those who are intersx could do an Xray so they know where to put them, probably that will give accurate results and not be ambiguous soo, bye.
XY
wait why was her being intersex conveniently ignored?
Because the video has an agender and that goes against it.
They no longer use that as a criteria
Goes against the Vox agenda
It was heavily implied, not ignored. However, I am unsure why they were not more explicit about this.
5:35
I think the video could have given more detail about why chromosome testing was abandoned as a measure.
It doesn't allow transgender people to compete, which is why they introduced the ridiculous testosterone limits and why we have the problem we have now.
@@JerseySean666 I feel like there's more to it than that, but I've done 0 research on it
@@JerseySean666 transsex not transgender... at least your not like Fox and gone for that little mistake on purpose;)
No
JerseySean666 actually it’s because it excludes intersex people
The video conveniently avoids mentioning that Semenya has XY chromosome.
She's intersex but not a man
@@dinahmyte3749 define a man
Gefry Grullon a person who identifies as a man. theres the full definition right there
@@timenspacetraveler7964 And that's your definition
@@timenspacetraveler7964 lol thats why some people says they identify themselves as an apache helicopter because of crazy people like u
I'm glad she is a mentally strong woman because all this public scrutiny is embarrassing and psychologically damaging.
Well, dude has a medical condition which allows him to be the father of the two children he has with his wife...also, he got a lot of cash.
The public scrutiny was only a small fee he paid for helping to destroy women's sports.
@@codingwithflavio8534 exactly it's called women sports for a reason trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete
That thing is not a man or a woman. Something else all together.
@@orionfernandes4587 “that thing” bruh
@@oceanusprocellarum6853 Well, One can’t expect to be referred to as a human being when one considers oneself as something inhuman.
8:40 "And she's right. It's entirely unethical to administer drugs to someone who doesn't need them"
It was probably a mistake they should have just banned her outright.
If she doesn't wanna take them she doesn't have to. But she can't compete.
Bolt should of not competed in the Olympics, he was confirmed to be a rare species of cheetah that stands upright.
Lol
He actually confirmed that he’s the manifestation of lightning in an organic form
@@___zeke___7581 why do you think he has *Bolt* in his name
Ruby Rembiszewski, yes *he* what’s your point
@@lovelykitty42 *Bolt* is an "it".
"You try to run in front of me, and I jump you." New life philosophy.
George Costarica you what mate?
@George Costarica dude go away lmao
💥💥💥💥
George Costarica that’s why Costa Rica losing today to Mexico 🤕
There are a lot of man in front of him, try to jump the tough ones for a change.
there is NO doubt testosterone helps you perform
especially in long distances, as testosterone doesn't switch on until an hour into effort (warm ups not included)
if she produces it naturally, she deserves the medal
this is an athletic competition, not a beauty contest
testosterone is the reason men and women has different tournaments, the only issue is which category to put in
@@adityanayak872 it doesn't take a whole lot of eyesight and understanding to realize that her body is of a very masculine build. Nobody can deny that, and if they do, they're too scared to offend anyone or act out of the political correctness line. She is built like a man. Compete with men.
@@adityanayak872 That's where it would be nice if there was a category in the middle for people like that who don't fit in either side.
no, it’s an athletic competition, not a genetic competition
@@dusscode then put men and women together? It is an athletic competition within a genetic competition
"naturally high levels of testosterone" - if it is natural then she should compete as a woman
well “she” is a dude
@@ULICKMYBUTCRACK you don't understand intersex at all, clearly
@@ULICKMYBUTCRACK bruh if even the World Medical association is with her then maybe you should shut tf up
@@ULICKMYBUTCRACK You couldn’t be in that sport if you were a man. They wouldn’t even allow you in there. You’re just sick in the head
Isn't it normal that some people have a natural advantage in certain sports?
I don't get why it would be a big issue in this case.
IceLacrima That’s exactly why there is separation to keep things fair and preventing natural beasts from just winning it all with less work.
I’m not saying this case in particular is justified. I’m saying the argument “it’s natural therefore fair” is wrong; or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so, we’d have men and women competing together, and ignore their genetic advantages...
There is no point in sports and competitions if one specific person wins 90% of time and others have no chances to win.
Yes. strip Phelps of all of his medals. He should not be allowed to compete with regular human beings
So why adults don't compete with children?
When do they start making the taller basketball players stoop during games? It could be done in the same way it's done with testosterone -- define people statistically as abnormal.
Thanks to the comments for clearing up that she's intersex and has a Y chromosome. I feel like Vox should have mentioned that
@Cruiser he has a chromosome disorder and he is sort of a man.
@@adhisharavind6393 *she
They mentioned that she is intersex.
But it was mentioned... while not directly.
@@adhisharavind6393 Rude
So should we disqualify basketball players over 7 feet now for "unfair advantages"?
I am a woman who can grow a beard, naturally. But I could never in a million years run a race like her.
That's more common than you might think
Olympic committee: Drugs are unethical and unfair, we'll test you to make sure you're not using them
Also committee: Take these drugs if you wanna compete
Yep, that accurately sums up their logic.
@Almost Mr. Worldwide Except they DO effect her performance, so...🤷♀️
@@amandadadesky5192 do you know the difference between affect and enhance?
Chingiz Zhylkybayev she doesn’t even know the difference between effect and affect
@@chingizzhylkybayev8575 Yes, I do. Both things effect performance, and making certain athletes handicap themselves just because of their natural prowess is wrong.
Also, they aren't testing all participants, just ones that look "suspicious." Notice that most of these women are not "conventionally" attractive by Western standards, and that is the metric being used to determine suspicion.
I don't know if this is true - but based on some quick internet research I just did, it says the she was born with a y chromosome. I feel like that is relevant to the discussion at hand and the video totally did not mention it. She is an intersex person with characteristics of both sexes.
Also testosterone is definitely a performance enhancer - it is not the only factor but it is a significant factor. That is why drugs that enhance it are banned as PEDs - even in men's sports.
The sad thing is that I feel like they are banning her for competing how she was born. She may have been born intersex and that is giving her an advantage - but shes not cheating to get an advantage. Then at the same time; is it fair to the other women who are competing?
I don't know this is a complicated issue...
Anyway interesting video.
@@CW-yt5kq What do you mean by willfully transgender?
Its not really that complicated if you think about it. Everywhere there are standards. In the military, you have to be a certain weight, height. You can't have any medical deformities without clearance. This is very similar. In order to compete, she would need clearance of these standards. If she can't be cleared to have the same standard as the other women, she shouldn't be allowed to compete. I bet if anything, she could run with the men. Even then, its not like everyone is allowed to compete anyway so why should she be able to when she has a clear advantage against everyone else; not much of a competition if you ask me.
I think it's not fair for her to be conpeting against regular women, just like it's not fair for someone in combat sports to fight in different weight class.
People try to make this much more complicated or racial/sexist than it is. I mean if in future we can do operation that significantly enhances your athletic ability, should that person be allowed to compete against normal people? We have banned doping for exactly this reason, it gives totally unfair edge in competition.
I say to all women. You went through all these years to get equality and a place in the world. Now it seems you are faced with this issue. I would use these obstacles to train harder and keep chasing until you beat these types of obstacles. World is never fair so I say rise above it. In the end everything will work out.
Then she must be allowed to participate in men's athletics
That is like saying people who are too tall can’t compete in basketball… Like their physiology favors them in the sport and that is normal
“Testosterone is correlated with lean body mass... but it’s not the only thing that contributes to that”
Sure, just like VO2 max isn’t the only thing contributing to endurance, and knowledge isn’t the only thing contributing to Jeopardy performance, etc. However, it is a huge and significantly causative force that gives a substantial advantage.
By this logic anabolic steroids shouldn’t be banned because they (mimicking testosterone’s effect) aren’t the only thing contributing to performance.
This video glanced over the chromosome part so quickly it sad to see this as educational
@Ad Lockhorst thanks but this isnt how you make friends
Yeah but most people struggle to really follow any of that stuff, as a man with Klinefelter's I've had to explain this to quite a few people and outside those with a biology or medical degree everybody really struggles to follow it
@Ad Lockhorst Glanced is correct too.
Well, it glossed over the physical exam part too. Even more so than it did with the chromosomes. You know why? Because this video is about the testosterone tests, not the other two.
Never think that anything made by Vox news is a legitimate educational material. Most of them are either purely entertainment, or politically motivated content
Its almost as if competitive sports naturally favors people with physiological superiority...🤔
not really...
Bob The Builder do you wanna expand on that?
@@boriswilcox5121 i dont understand sorry
you probably meant to say: "Its almost as if physiological superiority naturally favors people in competitive sports ...🤔"
Blame the Greco-Romans
I can't believe I watched 12 minutes of a video on a topic from one of the supposedly high-end production channels and learnt *absolutely nothing* on said topic.
Why can’t they just use what’s written on their birth certificate. I think that is a pretty standard measure no tests needed.
Lol that doesn’t apply to intersex you boomer
Michael Phelps produces less lactic acid in his muscle (I believe that is its name) and nobody complains about his genetic advantage.
iuvenis animo this is rooted in preserving „competitive integrity.“ sex is just another category.
iuvenis animo what’s your point exactly? Most athletes have natural advantages over non-athletes. They’re tall, have better abilities to build muscle, have an advantageous body shape. That’s the point of sports, highlighting human excellence in physical abilities. Semenya and other women like her are being penalized for their natural born advantages despite being born and raised women
Between the Panels but everyone separated men and women for their genetic advantage.
So saying uh it’s natural therefore fair is wrong, or at least not at all how things are decided nowadays. If so; you’d have men and women competing with each other:
Between the Panels and his wing span is the longest swimming and don’t forget his feet, size 14.
@iuvenis animo It's about extraordinary biological advantages. In her case it's to do with her hormones. No one is questioning her sex, genius.
If this is such a big deal then why not let people with similar levels of testosterone compete with each other?
because they are very few
Why not make everyone compete with eachother. Then we'll fjnd the actual best
Because as they said, testosterone is not the only factor
That’s going to make things so complicating
Because it's just running. Nobody takes this sport seriously
I'd love to know what competitions test and which ones don't. I think that several of the all-time champions in sports would be toppled with more testing. I don't think Armstrong was the sole beneficiary of banned substances...
They’ll call you a man when you’re too good
Some females with polycystic ovaries have high levels of testosterone, they're basically saying we're not women just because of one hormone.
yuval mor-yosef thats why they should test cromosomes again. we have the tecnology and its more black and white than not
"Science" today does nothing else but destroy nature.
If men have naturally super high test levels they also aren't allowed to compete. It's a fairness thing.
no, they say it would be unfair to compete against other women. Not the same thing.
they're saying that she is not allowed to compete against other women because of the high levels of testosterone which she probably has because she has XY chromosomes just like men.
So Vox, you guys sure did leave a lot of people more confused than before they had started to watch this video. Define intersex, make sure to explain the distinction between transgender and intersex, define Semenya's chromosomes. You guys did none of that. Disappointed.
It didn't have to to get the point across.
@@logoslive Semenya has an intersex condition. That information matters.
@@logoslive i was pretty confused and wondering why they didnt just state this simple information
de7io because it doesn’t fit their agenda
@@logoslive If not then why is there so much confusion in the comment section? Try to be more objective please.
Why chromosomes are not considered the standard, I don't get it.
They are.
That's the thing, she has an xxy chromosome so that's what causes the higher testosterone but not high enough to be on equal footing with men
@@blitszina2570 but enough to make it an unequal footing with women.
@@Sapphiregriffin then where should she be then? It's unfair to deny her on something she has no control over
@@blitszina2570 Put them in the special olympics
This video is confusing and seems bised towards identity politics ideology...
She was born with XY chromosomes, I can’t believe they didn’t mention this
Edit: As 95% of the comments pointed out, it’s XXY
he*
Because VOX is super left and that Y Chromosome does not fit their narrative.
@@steavenjosey They definitely should've mentioned it but she has characteristics of both sexes, and I don't think it's fair to not let someone run because of how they were born. But she also has a clear advantage over others. So what?
@@darksideorbit8898 I imagine it's because that isn't why she was banned, she was banned because of her testosterone levels. I think one of the most illuminating parts of this video is that only those athletes deemed "suspicious" are subjected to testing. That alone carries the potential for clear discrimination.
She was born with XY chromosomes because she's intersex. Which they mentioned.
I'd say 2 things:
- Saying testosterone levels are linked to performance doesn't mean they're THE ONLY determining factor. The video spends two minutes talking about other factors that might play a role in athletic performance as if the claim was "it's all about your testosterone levels".
-Caster Semenya was born with XY chromosomes. I feel like that should be included in the video.
So what now?
You want her to be a man?
@@lu881 But she is a man
@@lu881 she a man bruh
So she’s a he
Luthando Nqakala XY=dude
In other words, you can take drugs to reduce your performance but you can’t take drugs to increase your performance.
We’re with you Caster!🇿🇦
She’s intersex, she shouldn’t compete with women or men. Other women got cheated because of her
@@jcxkzhgco3050 wa phapha aona di facts
You don't ban the tallest basketball players because they have a genetic advantage over the shorter players.
exactly
PREACH.
sirkowski ikr
Exactly
We do have weight classes in many other sports tho. If your possition is that we shouldn't discriminate based on natural ability then why not desegregate sports.
Ofc then we'd have the problem that males would vastly out compete against females.
Taking a drug to reduce your performance is an exact contradiction of the no doping ruling. This group is completely discriminatory
cnn also called Ralph Northam a republican during his scandal
@@aidan2521 thanks
Terri Mullen She is free to not take those drugs and compete in men's events.
exactly my thoughts
@@storyls so then if men take those drugs and fall below 5, can they then run in the womens events? by your logic, you should answer yes
I think people tend to forget that sports are NOT fair whatsoever. There's a reason we have 1st, 2nd, and third place. It's hilarious when sports officials try to make it "fair" without taking to account that people will naturally be stronger, faster, and taller than other athletes which will give them an advantage.
here a shield and sword for you who are scrolling down, good luck down there!
Thank you sir I think I need it
Thanks
Isnt sport about genetical advantages anyways?
Yeah pretty much
At this point in time, yeah.
Only if you're a guy apparently
No it's about people working on a craft not science experiments
Rebeka Beka mate she’s a ducking man ,
God these writers clearly tried to manipulate facts. The reason testosterone is linked to performance is because testosterone has been directly proven to increase muscle mass (hence why steroids are made primarily up of testosterone). As a result, men (because they produce wayyy more testosterone than woman) have more muscle and can perform with higher athletic ability. It’s clearly unfair that someone who was born as a man (and naturally produces testosterone which increases muscle mass) should be allowed to compete against someone who has no ability whatsoever to increase testosterone levels (and as a result muscle mass).
She was not born a man! Please watch till the end before leaving ignorant comments. She was born an intersex woman.
Chiarity she was born with a y chromosome... she possesses the characteristics of both sexes which is why she has far higher testosterone levels than the rest which IS a performance enhancer
Chiarity I think bern k pretty much summed up the point.
@TheProphetPepe Why should you be punished for being born a certain way?. Why can't the women take medical treat meant to higher there testosterone level if they want to compete then?.
Fantan she should be punished because she has a very clearly unfair advantage against the other women. She needs to have her testosterone levels lowered or compete with the men
why dont they make a competition for women with high testosterone
Then one for small feet, one for long legs and one for good abs
Kira Anastasia Andersen i will do one better
one for blacks one for whites
abrezov aimich twitter would love that
Why dont they make women vs women and men vs men, without putting men to compete with women.
Simple. Women w high testosterone.. Athlete
Man trying to compete as a women.. not athlete
Yes u right idk why no one gets that
Well, she indetifies herself as a woman but she got XXY chromosomes.
so funny how i had only heard about this as a transgender issue, and until watching this i thought she was trans. people rlly be unimformed
Unless the people you heard it from were talking about non trans athletes they weren't uninformed, they were talking about something else.
@big unattractive womane Yeah, you should know, right?
This video is still misinforming people, because it doesn't use the term "intersex" once. That is what Castor is. And it's a big problem for athletics, because athletics, like much of society operates on the assumption that everyone is either a man or a woman.
maybe a sign that you need to seek out better and more responsible news sources?
@@mankytoes ...the video talks about DSD "also known as intersex". It's most definitely mentioned in the video.
It is very hard to actually make the whole tournament completely fair for everyone. This is basically like not allowing a player from playing basketball because he is naturally very tall.
tt317 exactly, the y chromosome is the whole reason men and women arent competing against each other
@@nick_steele9790 That would be sensible but rules are now made to suit the rare exceptions.
That is an incredibly weak argument. These criteria are similar to weight classes in boxing.
@@thapelomaraisane8705 No. first of all, you can control your weight way more easily compared to your height which relates to your genetics and is basically impossible to change. The fact that weight can be changed easily just makes the rules and regulation very easy to handle. Second of all, it's hard to make a section for each particular range of chromosomes since we dont have that much amount of people to actually hold events as large as the olympics. Now what did you say again?
In no way is that the same.
Imagine if Usain Bolt has to defend his species. "The only test we have to confirm someone is human is top speed..."
If there are testosterone limits for women, are there testosterone limits for men an well, or can they have any natural advantage and keep competing?
@B Babbich I think you need to reread my comment. 😂
@B Babbich And I'm not talking about men getting extra testosterone. I'm talking about the natural levels they have, which can vary a lot from one man to another.
@B Babbich I think you must've misunderstood my comment from the beginning because "get more testosterone" doesn't make sense, even if you were making a joke, unless that joke was based on intentionally misinterpreting what I said.
She's *genetically gifted.* Every person is *not same.*
You spelt he
Wrong
@@toptechtips187 *She.
@@toptechtips187 9:54
@@SPEARKO100 that's a dude, guy
The sheer amount of important information not included by vox is incredible.
Maybe it's just me but I've always seen Box as a jumping off point for a topic, something like this is always going to gloss over or skip important information but these are the cliff notes. Vox is about "understanding the news" not presenting it.
Like what? Also if your username is unironic then idk if you're particularly credible
My thoughts exactly! Vox is shamelessly dishonest and omitted vital information so as to allow them to misrepresent the actual matter. I'm certain they're deleting all the comments that go against their narrative.
@@fairy5668 They have a Y chromosome
..
@@ganeshprem3043 been 3 weeks and your comment hasn’t been removed.
So, let me get this straight - testosterone is not proven to have an effect on performance, but all top 3 runners in the olympics have high testosterone?
Congratulations, you’ve just discovered the need to differentiate causation and correlation 🥳
How do you draw the line for unfair advantage? Even though naturally gifted.
Answer - Don't draw a line.
VOX, I think you forgot to mention that Castor Semenya has XY chormosomes, has no womb nor ovaries and has internal testes. I really wanted to know how these affect a person but I didn't get an answer.
this comment needs more likes.
Soo she's a man? The the ban is needed.
Intersex but still a woman
Just need to discus whether she has an unfair advantage or not though
@@MsZsc how is she still a woman? She has xy chromosomes. Doesn't chromosomes determine one's sex? I'm genuinely confused but curious. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Wait what? No uterus or ovaries
Haha “2020 olympics” Good joke!
Andrew Harron LOL hopefully corona ends soon and 2021Olympics actually happen
Lol
lol
Lol
All of us waiting for karate on olympics
I feel like no one in the comments really listened to what was said in the video
Why don't we just create different ranges? Like how paralympic sports keep people of the same abilities competing fairly.
in track and field at this moment. you can count dsd athletes with 1 hand that are competing at the elite level and therefore there aren't enough of them to run against one another in order to have their own category.
“It’s not the only factor” but it’s a pretty bloody big one
I don't like how I get this
Don't women get cramps causeing them fatigue
Exactly! And actually it's a little selfish of her demanding anyone to understand her, but herself never feels what all other athletes that compete against her feel like
Yeah, imagine a dude at UFC admitting to taking anabolic steroids for years "They weren't the only factor I won"
Ummm u do know that there are diseases like polysistic ovarian syndrome that causes testosterone to increase rapidly in females right? Even if it is not how we r born... and trust me just by looking at someone u can’t tell that... so that’s just utterly wrong !
Next up: People over 2metres tall won't be able to play basketball.
Lisergiko She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
@@rs0582 🙄🙄🙄🙄
@@alexn.2901 I mean he's completely right as far as I can see. Maybe put forward an alternative argument? I'm interested to see what you disagree with here.
@@rs0582 That's very true. It doesn't seem fair to 'true' women to have to compete against her. But on the other hand, the conditions for her to actually compete are also quite ridiculous. If she is forced to take meds to lower test, she can basically never participate in her natural state ever again, which pretty much goes against the Olympics code of ethics and rules. She also has a very poor chance of winning against males in the same category if she competes in the men's divisions. The Olympics were meant to showcase the best of human athletes in their natural state. She just seems too fast for women, and not fast enough for men.
To the world, it just seems like the committee wants Semenya to lose or not compete at all. And if the regulatory committee is so adamant about hormone changing meds, why not push for regular women to actually take test boosting meds in order to compete with Semenya? Just food for thought lol
caveshlin Sadly I don’t think there is a scenario where everyone wins here, but keeping the integrity of women’s sports should always keep priority. Plus giving other atheists more testosterone is both doping, and can have severe side effects. Someone here has to loose, and I’d rather it be one runner than all the other Olympic teams out there with passionate people and a new chance to grasp that gold.
Thank you for the commenters for including what Vox left out.
I have reliably counted on Vox to provide information not clouded with advocacy. This video is an outlier. You get an F.
Dude this channel has such an agenda
so if testosterone doesn't impact performance, then why would anyone take steroids?
It's not the only factor, that's different then not having a impact. You know that right?
@@zenhasustormclaw1442 your being condensending, you know that, right?
Phelps asserting dominance with that T pose.
3:27
Yeah, this feels like a no-win situation.
@Alex C yes
Alex C I like you
@@alexc7857 you guys have the same name :0
@@Ah_liyah that's because we are the same person
@@gruntingskunk2237 ❤
I love how Vox are trying to obfuscate and pull out the exception to the rule, rather than the rule in general to say when we should ignore the rule all together.
So why was chromosome testing abandoned? The intersex thing can't possibly come up often enough to give up on chromosome testing, and it seems like a way more legitimate criteria than T. If you are a woman with (naturally) high T, good for you, just like for Phelps. Also forcing people to medicate unnecessarily is messed up.
I really feel sorry for Semenya . All this intrusion and humiliation .
I sympathize but do not feel sorry. She is a badass and is much stronger than me physically and emotionally!
@@neurosin I agree with you! I also think she would rather have us support her than feel sorry for her.
it's noble of you to sympathize , but such stories are unfortunately inevitable when the criteria that separate between the women/men brackets is being debated.
a line has to be drawn somewhere to protect the women's bracket, even though and it's never gonna be perfect .
The problem is more complex than Vox is letting on. Apparently she has no womb no ovaries and has internal testes. I don't know how to think about this.
I feel bad for the actual women who are getting crushed by this dude no matter how much they train
Honestly, how she isn’t depressed and suicidal is beyond me. Imagine the whole world debating if you are a woman or not.
C.L Mckenzie she is super strong and fierce. I follow her on IG.
probs all that testosterone
@@brendanwasnothere lol im ded
She is a strong woman! 💪🏿
i know right he is a guy
Shes literally just built different
This is such a slipper subject. If the rules are not tight enough what happens if men who identif as women begin competing against women in sports.
This video was missing some info that wasn't clarified completely.
Alexander Muñoz ?
Pretty sure this vid would be a 2 hour movie instead of a 12 minute video if they went to detail
@@nathanj2439 True
Bennett Graham he has xy chromosomes, vox completely left out that fact
11:11 “you try to be in front of me, I jump you”
Wise words said
NZL_ Vernice "thats how life is" my new role model
@@ryanmarie4461 Thats how life *it* is*
@Daniel Kalz ?
Erianuoluwa Ogunwole He*
why do we even do sports? lets test the men, who ever has the highest testosterone wins.
I met Casta in Pretoria when I was in high school. She is such an amazing person and didn’t deserve any of what the media was saying. We love you Catsa 🇿🇦🇧🇼
Nope we don't
@Walkerpaup
We don’t care about you or your opinion
@@accelworld6.031 no no pal it's not "We" It's "I" Lotta racists out there white lives matter
@@walkerpaulp6526 there is no link with racism , nobody even talked about that and if you mention it , it just shows how a hater you are.
I advise you to stop hating for nothing , you are ruining your own life.
Didn't deserve to be born Intersexed?
Your video could’ve done a lot better on explaining why chromosomal sex determination fell out of favour.
Yes like the subject ended abruptly and I found myself immediately being like wait what? Wait here don't go, come back here and explain to me!
No because it probably wouldn't support voxs agenda
It doesn't allow transgender people to compete, which is why they introduced the ridiculous testosterone limits and why we have the problem we have now.
Because they found she had intersex traits, so she never allowed for the results to be published claiming they were 'unscientific' . it was leaked she has no uterus. Look at her wikipedia page for a start it talks about it a bit,
They did explain it, the wide variety of ways you can be classified as intersex disqualified many women but never applied it to men.
Some athletes were lucky and born with high testosterone levels, just like the swimmer had big hands and feet. Humans aren’t identical so it’ll never be 100% fair. Do they want every athlete to get medical treatment to be identical? So that everyone has the same starting point? And the competition is fair? I don’t think that’s a good idea.
Alva S. Lange thanks for rewording the video
Yeah, but lucky women would not get the opportunity for fame if some doubty man is always there to surpass them in every aspect
Fausto Flores Except they're women just like the others. Nobody should be forced to be equal to the others, the point of sports in the first place is to show how naturally dominant a person can be over the other. Otherwise Michael Phelps, Chris Cyborg, Shaquille O'Neil would all be banned because they are "built" in a certain way or look in certain way.
@@yurandeveloper6958 yeah, i'm in favor of that
But i'm not in favor of letting trans-woman compete with borned-womans
Fausto Flores oh ok, I understand and agree with you. Yes trans women should have a class of their own
If athletes are not allowed to take performance-enhancing drugs, then they should not be forced to take performance-limiting drugs. UBU.
the ban is like saying anyone 7 feet tall cant play in the nba
No, it's like the wnba banning men
@@JeanPaul-ie4ug no it’s really not. She’s intersex yes but she’s still a woman she just has naturally higher levels of testosterone does that offer some kind of athletic advantage in specific situations yes but you should not be discriminated against for this she had no choice on how she came out of the womb she just decided to make do with what she had and she is a professional international athlete. She should not be discriminated against just because of her naturally higher amounts of testosterone
@@unreallilac5554 If she is intersex its NOT a woman , or a man , that is what INTERSEX means.
If all the best athletes have too much testosterone, doesn't that say something?!
I'm confused but they don't.
i don’t think so. People become top athletes due to a mix of natural ability and physical. If woman have naturally higher testosterone levels than thats “natural ability” which makes it easier for them to win. It’s the same as how Michael Phelps has his height or his foot shape. It is just natural ability that these athletes have that helps rise them to the top. I don’t think people should be banned for that.
James Bond how’s it unfair? It’s natural genetic variability, athletes will be different.
If you’re talking about these intersex cases then yes I can see how it’s unfair.
@@johnmoore1495 The difference is that this is mass variation, basically all men have higher testosterone levels than basically all women, this is not the case with other things like Michael Phelps feet and height where there are many guys close to his height (I would say 6+ feet is close to 6'4") compared to the massive difference in T levels between genders. The difference both exists in almost all cases when comparing the two genders and its too extreme of an advantage. They should be banned for extreme genetic advantage it already happens with weight classes.
The perfect summary is at 10:08.
No matter where or how you choose to draw the line between men and women, someone's going to be unhappily lumped into a category where they don't wish to be. And Vox will make a video about how unfair the whole thing is.
But the line still must be drawn somewhere.
Not by old white men
Thank you
Taran Van Hemert I was like wait a minute is that the Taran from... It is, it’s Taran from LTT.
How about draw it at chromosomes. Semenya has xy chromosomes. That gives her the abilities of a man
@@123Althor True. After all, what have old white men ever contributed to civilization.
We should just have women and men compete together. Top humans competing. In my opinion is just makes men and women not seem equal when they are competing separate.
3:00 was kind of pointless. No one said Testosterone was the only reason she was good, BUT testosterone does increase athletic performance when all other factors are close to the same, WHICH WITH OLYMPIC ATHLETES are all going to have good coaching, equipment, training, etc.
I don’t understand. What’s not accurate about chromosome testing?
Feelings
Vox
The question still remains - what do we do with people who are intersex? Do we let them complete, if so, where? What category? Who decides which category they compete in?
@@danadomino Two Olympic intersex categories need to be established.
@@danadomino intersex Olympics whatever that is
All this information shows me is that her body was created to be a beast at sports, and damn right she should take advantage of it!
DC Infinity ikr
It's been proven she has XY chromesomes
He has internal testes
You're right no need for womb and ovaries and internal testes a beast indeed.
So the very reason why women and men aren’t competing together is because of physical advantage, but why should it be lifted for some individuals, just because they don’t have a donger.
Never knew this intersex thing existed on a chromosomal level. That is very interesting. I’m interested in knowing if this is common, and how common it is in sexes with higher and lower levels of testosterone.
Afaik it's very rare at 1:1.000.000
@@KingJupiter take away three zeros, then yes
@@Adam-mv4fw Depends on definiton we're both wrong, it's between 1,7% and 0,018%
@@KingJupiter then why did you take the lower end instead of averaging it?
@@Adam-mv4fw I watched a video on that "Trans-Korean" guy once, with a Trans person giving ocmmentary, they said "1:1.000.000"
It's like banning a basketball player for being tall. It's completely natural and makes no sense
ye so why don't we let Lebron james play in the WNBA then
"...and news outlets have wrongly portrayed her as transgender."
Damn, *FOX* lived up to my expectations. Exactly what i hoped it would.😂😂
@Tobby Isiba and you are saying based on what?
Mautik Ganvir you have such a brainwashed mind
@@warrior_of_liberation do you really trust what Fox say?
@@mitchellbaker2872 You are always welcomed to correct me.
Mautik Ganvir She is intersex I believe, but with XY chromosomes she has a biological advantage, that no woman can complete with.
Obviously some athletes are going to have a physical advantage over others this what makes them win
Obviously Phelps is not a man he's cheetah running that fast
Mas Abd She is basically a man. She has testosterone levels around the lower average of men, she is an XY variant of intersex and tests XY on all her cells (not included in the video), and she is not built like a majority of the women she’s competing against. The only difference between her and most men out there is her genitalia. Women’s sports are separate from men’s sports due to the massive differences between males and females. Males are just better at these kinds of sports because of those differences, and if she has more in common with men then she shouldn’t be competing against women. It’s just not fair.
@@rs0582 All your reply still didn't answer the original comment.
Also, she literally has 1 hormone different than other females
Moosa27 She has the same cells as men and has 8 times the testosterone of a normal woman. Those are some of the big things that make men, men. (other than genitalia)
@@Moosa27 If she wants to compete as a man, there is nothing stopping her. The IAAF has to make some kind of distinction to tell who can qualify for women's sports. I think they know it's not perfect, there isn't a good alternative. They can't just say: Sex is not clearly defined, so let's throw all the athletes together. They have to draw a line somehow, and that's the best they could come up with.
exactly
You know what I can see in the future..testosterone classes. Like weight classes but what you compete in is based on testosterone level
Great video despite not looking to address the elephant in the room...
What do you mean?
'Testosterone has nothing to do with performance' , *top 3 finishers at 2016 Olympics had naturally high levels of testosterone* it is obvious testosterone is closely linked to performance.
Scientifically speaking it doesn't. If it is not causally linked to performance, which it hasn't been yet, then you cannot say for certain in a scientific factual manner.
But there is no scientific evidence that testosterone is a direct link to high performance. They most likely trained at high performance facilities and had a strict and healthy diet. There is no evidence that states that you could have high testosterone yet not train, eat junk and not maintain good fitness but still be able to win a gold at the olympics
Correlation is not causation
@@alexsinnett6123 That's a false comparison. The untrained high T person would still outperform a untrained low T person. So his point remain correct. Having higher testosterone isn't an automatic win button, its just give you an advantage. Especially, in muscles development where evidence are conclusive. There's a reason why men who transition into women dominate whatever women sport they compete in.
And being tall gives you a distinct advantage in basketball, but nobody's calling for a height limit for that are they?
Different features and hormone levels and other factors will affect how well someone does at a particular sport, which of these gets attention and outrage is arbitrary. Why do people care strongly about some and not about others? It's worth considering, as I suspect it's not down to any logic or reason but instead is just because of general biases and expectations people have about men and women.
To have a complete discourse, Vox needs to mention that Semenya has XY chromosomes.
that would not meet their agenda.
she is intersex tho. It's not that simple scientifically
Man
@@jilliand3713 if that is the case then I do truly feel sorry for Semenya.
She Is intersex that doesn't mean anything
Why haven't they equally tested everyone in the Olympics? This means Olympians need to be tested for winning.
They played the race card at exactly 9:35