Which is what a lot of Fandoms fall into, they make the show in their head much more interesting that it actually is. If you want to see an active example of this happening and someone losing their sanity watch angry Joe reacting to Star Trek Piccard seasons, he kept giving it more score then it deserved thinking " there's no way the writers are this stupid" by the end of it, he realized the writers are this stupid and he's just making up for their mistakes for no reason.
It should also be noted that in season 1 they made it very clear they the forging required precious metals from Valinor as the metals of middle earth were too corrupted by Morgoth and their corruption would be magnified in the process. Also, their only source of Valinorian silver and gold was the dagger Galadriel carried, which did not provide enough metal for crowns. I believe they said they only barely had enough for the 3 rings. That implies that the materials for the dwarven rings could not possibly be the same. They probably used gold from middle earth, despite knowing it was corrupted, and should expect the 7 and the 9 to magnify such corruption.
yeah, wondered the same from the first time i saw the making of more.... and no one ever mentioned it ever... and we see here even Sauron touched the first mithril... yeah not the moment he dropped it in, but still, as you don't see him doing things there... optically he doesn't have anything to any ring... besides the basic idea... but really, as used in this show they allways forget not only the lore they have no right of, but even what they themselves did before.... same thing with... distance between the elven kingdoms... between season 1 and 2 its just a horse chase... later on when its urgent its a week hours of WALKING... why the hack walking?
Yeah, that is an example where they clealry wanted it to just have symbolic weight at the time, but now I guess we are supposed to not see it as literally necessary. Or maybe they just expect the audience to mindlessly forget. Better to have kept it all as total mystery in the show than to introduce a "required" element only to violate that next time around. The show-runners' conception of the magic system is the same as Rodger Rabbit's - the magic only works when it is funny, or in this case symbolic.
I know that the source material has been discarded by Amazon, but the idea about metals from Middle Earth carrying evil, carrying an echo of Morgoth's evil capable of driving the minds into evil deeds, is nonsense. To be a carrier or doer of evil requires _Fëa_ (spirit). A spirit that has *chosen* to do evil. Metals in Middle Earth or Valinor do not have spirit, do not have mind. The One Ring has a corrupting effect because it carries a portion of Sauron's _Fëa_ Corrosion, the decay of metals, was the only effect caused by the dissonant chant of Melkor during the Creation.
You are spot on with your observations. In the books it makes sense for the Elves to use the Rings, since they do not know of the deceit of Sauron. Why would Galadriel put on a Ring when they know Sauron had a hand in their making. The whole point in the books is that they find out of his deception when he puts on the One Ring and Tolkien says that Elves knew his mind and took them off. Makes sense to me. And if I remember correctly, Sauron gets furious at this, invades Eregion, kills Celebrimbor and then distributes the rings of power, except for the one Celebrimbor gave Durin. Seems plenty to work with for a great plot.
I’m piggybacking off what another channel keeps reiterating is that they don’t show ANYTHING about them actually forging of any of the rings. No hammers no nothin. Show celebrimbor actually forging a ring… you know cuz he’s like the greatest elf to ever do it
The original “schedule” concept, as best as inferred from what Tolkien actually wrote, was that Annatar/Sauron more or less REVEALS to Celibrimbor the basic concept and art behind making rings of power. Many rings are then made apparently while S was directly supervising, and the art of making them became more refined and the rings they made gradually became more powerful over time. It is implied that because Sauron knew exactly how they were made he also knew exactly how to make something that could control all of them which was the whole plan all along. At some point Sauron leaves Eregion and secretly goes back to Mordor and starts building his own forge. After Sauron is gone, C has his final thought on the matter and forges the THREE, specifically as his final crowning creation, and last of all. Echos with his grandad Feanor, etc. Several textual things also seem to imply, but it is never directly stated, that C use a special sauce of his own that he added to the three. The Three were given to powerful Elves and more or less held in secure locations by Cirdan, Gil Galad, and Galadriel, but basically all the rest of the original rings were still in Eregion in what I imagine is C’s “big safe o’magic rings”. Sometime after the three were made Sauron makes the one, but when he wields it - apparently not to his plans - the Elves are aware of his intentions and take off their rings and hide them. This might be the first time Sauron is aware of the Three, or maybe he knew they existed but not their exact nature, but either way he is pissed. Maybe because C used special sauce without telling him screweing up his millennia of carefully laid plans, maybe because they couldn’t be tricked. But he then invades Eregion, kills C, and takes back all the other rings. He only LATER gave out some of the other rings HIMSELF to the dwarves and men, though we aren’t told anything about how exactly he pulled this off. Presumably like always there was subterfuge. There is a nice big empty spot on the original parchment there that the show-runners could have filled with some interesting stories. I REALLY did NOT write this to geek out, but to show how the original timeline is free of all the contradictions mentioned. All of this is basically included in the material they paid a quarter of a billion dollar to license, so why not use it. Even if you contract the actual chronology down from hundreds or thousands of years to the blink of a eye as they do in the series it all sill holds together. Personally I’m not a purist on such things and don’t feel that the show-runners HAVE to follow the original. But the hubris of trying to redo something they already had without coming up with a consistent replacement kind of says it all - they just didn’t care enough to do it cleanly.
I’ve never understood the opening of Fellowship, where the rings “were given “ to each race. Like no mention of the fact they werent “given “ but crafted then given. If sauron had forged all the rings himself he could have just gifen them as gifts. But Tolkein clearly said Celebrimbor made them so now the contradictions occur where Sauron or Celembrimbor has to give the rings they make as gifts. It just seems like a plot hole
I wouldn’t mind the show that much if they give out all the rings before he makes the One, and then there is wars and he takes back as many of the rings he can namely from the Dwarves since they become greedy but not corrupted to the point of fully controlling them, except for the men he can somehow control by using the One, they get to keep the rings or he turns them into wraiths some how?
@@chloe-historyandgames I think you might be thinking of the movie there. I think some of the confusion does get worked out in the books since there is a timeline. The Elves made all the rings (except the three) first, but with Sauron's participation, so I guess the Elves made them AND Sauron kind of helped to make them. But I guess if you are an immortal being that helped sing the Universe into existence doing something without being seen to do something is all in a days work. Then Sauron went off, and the three were eventually made just by the Celebrimbor accoding to Tolkien's timeline about 400 years into the ring making period. Then about 10 years later Sauron made the One. Then many years later Sauron retrieved all rings made by the elves through war, except the three. Maybe a few of the lesser ones got lost out of the whole batch, and Gandalf implies that he at first thought Bilbo's ring might have been one of those. It seems clear that the story was always that rings were made by Celebrimbor, but corrupted by Sauron. But you are right, there is a question of why didn't Sauron just bypass the middle man and make the gift rings himself as is pretty well implied in the opening of Jackson's version. Maybe he had to save up all his mojo for the one ring. I'm kind interested in seeing how they portray the making of the One on the show. After their prior terrible performance on the making of the three I'm also dreading it too. Presumably there wouldn't be any kind of ritual or chants or something since he himself is the god/angel/demon powering things in this case. As a very geeky pre-teen I remember imagining Sauron kind of going into full Maiar ethereal mode when he made his ring, and with big flaming streams of his essence ripping off and going into the ring as it formed. Maybe he would have been diminished into the goo form of S2, Ep1 until he formed a gooey finger and stuck it in the ring. 🤣 Anyway, Tolkien wrote himself into many contradictions, and was still trying to patch things up in various ways until months before his death. Its perfectly ok to leave the obscure and secret ring lore as a mystery box in the story, as long at there aren't obvious inconsistencies. But those I'm pretty sure Tolkien would say draw the attentive reader out of the beliveable secondary world.
@@MarkoBotsaris Very well said. I think Sauron could not bypass the middleman because, if he did, then his ring, the One, would not be tuned to the others. I believe that when he helped craft the first rings, however many there may have been, he did not corrupt them, but he learned how they could be led to corruption if influenced by a device he could, and would, create later. Indeed, Sauron participated in singing Arda into being, but even the Valar, among the Ainur, did not know everything; they could learn from each other, and the Maiar could learn from the Valar. More than that, Men and Elves themselves were special "information" from the mind of Ilúvatar. The creation of the rings could be illustrated like this: Sauron helps Celebrimbor create radio receivers that could be used to hear/influence things in Arda, but, at the same time, he learns the frequency and codes necessary to create his transmitter/controller. I don't know if this was Tolkien's original intention, but I think it works when looking back now.
Part of the problem here is not just the order of the forging (which, unlike a lot of the Tolkien contradictions, is actually a major plot point in Lord of the Rings), but the need to supply magical technobabble to 'explain' the unknowable Elvish 'magic' that created the Rings. It just leads to silliness. 'We need Three for Balance™' 'We'll make Seven because who needs Balance anyway…' Just as we didn't need an 'origin story' and hitherto unknown magical properties for _mithril_ , Tolkien's world does not need to be turned to a quasi-science-fiction milieu. Remember Tolkien fuming about Zimmerman's script describing lembas as a 'food concentrate'?
Saurons contribution, the thing he put into the ring, is his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. Would be fun to see that on screen. Just yelling "i hate you" in anakins voice at the molten gold. But yeah, also how did sauron make the three rings dependent on the one, if the tree rings didn't include any boobytrapped information from sauron? Celebrimbor designed his rings to work with the one rings without realising one ring exists... Wow
Jackson originally intended to visualize the "cruelty and malice" by having Sauron stab himself in the hand and mix his own blood into the Ring. However, he ended up cutting that moment from the Prologue as well as a later reference to it by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond. Something I never noticed until I saw it pointed out in a RUclips video the other day is that Sauron can still be seen clutching a bloody dagger in one of the shots of him inside Mount Doom in the Prologue.
I think a lot of the reason for the way that they are going about it is to try and make the dwarven soap opera relevant. First of all, they amplify the magical properties of mithril compared to canon, to the point that you might even question how much elven magic is going into the process (and probably further brings into question Sauron's alleged contribution). The elven rings come first because of the manufactured urgency of the highly dubious take on the decline of the elves. But then we have far more melodrama than is really necessary in the acquisition of the mithril, which gives the dwarves an expanded role in something that does not concern them all that much. The acquisition of mithril alone is not really sufficient to sustain the dwarven role in the story, so rather than the original version of nearly all of the rings being made by and for elves, then redistributed later, we get more manufactured urgency to warrant the delivery of the rings directly to the dwarves. That manufactured urgency being patently absurd, in that the race who's main skill is mining and working stone, need a magic ring in order to figure out where to make holes to let some light in because singing at it does not work. Seriously? So its all about manufactured urgency and maintaining otherwise superfluous characters and plot threads, with no regard whatsoever for the impact on the continuity and internal "logic" of their own story, let alone on canonical events. Since they have turned mithril into the magical substance that provides the rings' power though, it really does seem like it massively devalues the elves' contribution to the point that you would think that maybe the dwarves themselves could have been cranking out magic rings. They are not unskilled in metal work and might even not require some random human to remind them what an alloy is. They might not have the super special elven metal that we are told was vital for the forging of the three. But then its not like the elves have a lot of that lying around at the time either, so as someone else has pointed out even Celebrimbor is presumably falling back on lesser metals.
There was a scene where he held a nugget of mithril and dropped it in the molten metal while there were forging the rings for dwarves. He is basically the Ralph Wiggum of the smithy.
Perhaps it is like Feanor, who could only make the Silmarils once, and never again. And Jahvana who could never make the trees again. Celebrimbor could only make the three rings perfectly, the other rings become lesser and tainted, because he should never have made them. Not sure that is the point they are trying to make though, Celebrimbor does not looks very spent. Also I feel like they are trying to say, that the dwarven and human rings are different, and that is why the dwarves react different from humans to the rings. Although I am almost certain, the point Tolkien is making is, that the rings are the same, but the races react differently.
I couldn't agree more. It does seem like they thought of the poem first and the characters not at all. A poem is a different medium than a novel which is different from a movie. Transferring from one to the next is not a 1:1 ratio. Things are gained and lost, and they have to be for the betterment of the finished work.
From the bits I’ve seen, the three rings needed to be made first to explain why Galadriel knows stuff she shouldn’t/couldn’t otherwise know. They seem to be using the rings to hand wave away tricky plotting.
I think there is an upcoming info about Sauron's effect on 3 elven rings. The following is from an article in tvinsider: Second to his lust for more rings is Sauron’s desire to get the Elven rings back. “While he didn’t directly touch them, which is a big thing this season, [Galadriel] has this ring that he put all this effort into, and he wants that back,” Vickers admits. Sauron “covets” these jewels, “and particularly hers,” he explains, “because he knows what they represented when he was making them.” It seems the writers are totally messed up in the ring storyline.
@anthonybernacchi2732 i see, if they follow the books, yes, he cannot take them, buy my point is the part "he put all this effort into". It does not make sense to me according to S1E8. Sauron's involvement in the elven rings is strange!
I'm sure professor Tolkien pondered at great length the best sequence to forge the rings, so that it fitted best in the story. He seldom, if ever, scribbled this kind of thing in a hurry. That the screenwriters had the audacity to change the order of the ring forging only speaks either of their arrogance or their ineptitude.
And mind you, the Dwarven Rings are said to be not functioning correctly according to Celebrimbor so Annatar coming in actually made things worse even though he himself put that on the lies in the letter to Gil Galad. This show is so messed up it’s actually sad. This is a show that focuses on Galadriel a great deal and we didn’t even see Celeborn yet. They mentioned him once in a scene in season 1 that seemed like it was added last minute to “satisfy” fans. We didn’t see Celebrian yet either who’s Galadriel’s daughter and should be having a romance with Elrond right about now instead of us having to endure Isildur and Estrid wasting our time. Originally, I was so hype to see Numenor being added to the Amazon map. Like yes! The Second Age. If only I knew what trash it would be 🤣🤷♂️ Anyway, you’re amazing. Bye!
IIRC, Elrond and Celebrían hadn't met yet at this point in canon (not that the canon timeline has ever constrained RoP before). Clearly the reason for the Estrid storyline is that no matter how loose an adaptation RoP may be, if they want it to bear any resemblance whatsoever to Tolkien canon then Isildur has to get laid at least once by the end of Season 5. (SPOILER WARNING: Valandil's death in Season 2 Episode 5 is clearly for a related reason: to motivate Isildur to name his son after Valandil. I had suspected ever since Season 1 that Valandil would die in a spectacular or memorable way. His name also gave him an unusual form of plot armor, not protecting his physical safety but his moral stature: he could never have gone over to Ar-Pharazôn's side.)
This Schedule " comes from the same writters what wrote that a master craftsman didn't know what an alloy is until being told by (at the time) a random human . Not even to mentioned that the whole process of forging the 19 rings of power took 300 years and not 3 weeks (or it could be 3 days since Sauron teleports between Eregion and Mordor)
My opinion on the poem was that the order was just from the smaller set of rings to the largest set. Not something related to the order in which the sets were made. Also given that the poem ends with "mortal men doomed to die", it could have been in order of the longest-living to the shortest-living. (although that would depend on which group of humans you're looking at in Tolkien's world)
You are absolutely right. Those were likely the reasons it was ordered that way in the poem. It was absolutely NOT meant to convey the order in which they were created. But the show seems dead set on evoking the poems order in their plot structure even though that is not the order in which they were forged and there is narrative dissonance created when you change the original order.
All the rings were made for the elves themselves in the text; Celebrimbor making the 7 and 9 with dwarves and men in mind, is an invention of the showrunners.
The writers will have only read the rings poem and took it to be the order they were forged in: 1 - Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, 2 - Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, 3 - Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, 4 - One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. This is the depth of their respect for the story, the lore and the world building.
When Sauron inevitably attempts to take the rings for himself, what information will Celebrimbor be able to withhold? Sauron knows of the other three rings and knows that Gladerial and company have them. The show will either have to 1) not have Sauron attempt to take the rings, 2) torture Celebrimbor for no gain, or 3) worse portray Celebrimbor's death as his comeuppance for assisting Sauron in the crafting and distribution of rings.
Way they they decided to make rings in the show removes Annatar the betrayal and process of Celebrimbor and Sauron to learn how to make the rings. As they first made hundreds of lesser rings (which is important for Hobbit and Lord of the Rings as Gandalf, originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of these lesser rings), and then they made 17 rings of power to elves which Annatar/Sauron stole and gave to dwarves and men in order to control them. In shows version of making the rings they leave out these important parts. Shows version gives us the dwarven drama, but I am not sure how to think it as I am not sure can they fit in the Sauron's regret to give rings to dwarves because they were immune to his control and his efforts to try get rings back.
The way they've engineered the story basically removes Celebrimbor's agency - Galadriel is now fundamentally the character at fault for Sauron's deception (both initially and in not telling the truth in Eregion), Celebrimbor is the pawn that suffers because of her. Galadriel is now the one who pushed for the Three, and the one that sacrificed part of herself for their making, rather than them being Celebrimbor's final redemption. It's also resulted in this tiresome run of contrivances to prevent Celebrimbor finding out who Annatar is.
I think the Tolkien estate was there to keep track of the events so that even if they are (laughably condensed) they would happen in the correct order. I have no idea what they are doing (other than greedily counting the mone) as not only have they introduced events that never took place, they have also killed Celeborn off-screen in the show even though he doesn't die in the books, they have quite forcefully with ridiculous plotpoints have Galadriel visit Numenor just to meet Sauron and then have the basics of storytelling totally messed up with the forging of the rings. And then there is the ridiculous birth of Mordor by some magical sword-key and one angry tavern boi.
@@AlaniTheScriptMageThis is usually a result of recording a mono source (microphone) on a stereo audio track. The audio will only be recorded on one channel, the left one. If you’re able to record on a mono audio track, that would solve it.
They made three elven rings corrupted, cause Halbrand touched mithril in s1 and now the elves have premonitions through visions. So there's no need to forge the One Ring, cause he corrupted them all and know about the three.
I think it’s implied that Sauron was the one who taught them ringcraft in the first place. We only see the first part of that process when halbrand augfeats amplifying the mithril’s light by mixing it into an alloy. Annatar’s role in Eregion this season seems to me almost like a foreman. Or even even a patron, commissioning the rings be made. His whole pitch to celebrimbor when he transformed into anatar was “the free people’s need rings, and you’re the only one who can do it. Don’t let me down.” He doesn’t seem to play a large collaboratory role. He even feigns incompetence at times to spur celebrimbor on or to stroke his ego. We know damn well Sauron can craft this rings.l, but there’s also a cost to his life force that he’s basically tricking celebrimbor into paying for him. Celebrimbor is an unwilling dark Christ figure honestly, being sacrificed by the father of lies to usher his infernal kingdom into the world.
I know that's what the show is implying. I just think that him teaching him ringcraft while in the guise of Halbrand seems strange, seeing as it would appear inexplicable to any elf that this "king of the southlands" would know smithing that the grandson of Feanor wouldn't.
he is tired and forgetful because Sauron is corrupting his mind. It is implied many many times "You do not always do as your told" but Sauron has not told him to do anything other than in his mind. This is similar to Galadriel it is to show that Sauron's power was not originally darkness but becomes that way due to what happens to him. They reversed the order to make it fit the plot of the series is not really a big deal. Celebrimbor wants to be remembered for something that matters and Sauron uses that to his advantage the focus is not on the craft itself but vanity and pride.
Have they said where they got more of the Valinorian gold and silver they needed to alloy the Mithril in S1? I'd imagine they'd have run out of what they had from Finrod's dagger right?
Only one of the many logic holes one can stumble into. I do wonder what the Tolkien Estate feels about this adaptation. Maybe they are checked out and simply happy to have the income.
They are totally checked out... just swimming around in their money-bin. They have Simon Tolkien as some sort of advisor and from all I have seen he resents his grandfather's entire legacy.
In fairness, Tolkien mentioned in his letters that his goal when the prospect of a LotR film was first mooted was "Art or Cash". The Tolkien Estate may well feel that the humongous fee Amazon paid them for the rights fully fulfilled JRRT's wishes (and JRRT might well have agreed with them, especially since he was skeptical about the possibility of dramatizations of his work being any good anyway).
The show needs its fans to fill up all the holes in the narrative for them. Can it be explained? Yes. No way they all brought nothing else but a dagger. Is it explained in the show? No, the writers don't know, don't care.
... also, how many rings can you get out of a nugget of mithril and one single Valinorian dagger? ... wait, didn't that whole first nugget go in with that Valinorian dagger? Did they have stuff left over and they just added THAT to the new mithril? Which means the mix indeed would be different?
What's bothering me is why is every ring the same as the one it doesn't work the other rings didn't corrupt anything till the one ring was made the showrunners cannot write
Let me tell you why it works and why you totally miss the point and cannot follow and grasp, when something is outside your lore knowledge. It really amazes me that so called Tolkien experts and nerds cannot understand the inevitability of changing things due to the huge timeline. The difference between what is essentially a draft outline of a story and a full developed story is often substantial. Once you begin writing a story, things which you do not demand a great deal of in the outline phase need to be relooked at. This is the case with the order of the rings creation...The people designing the show not only have to avoid the march to the inevitable ( kind of book of the film in reverse) but they have to reveal more of the dilemmas and doubts of the races of middle earth, and in doing so, deal thematically with the same issues that Mr. Tolkien did. Sure there are very substantial changes to the way the story is told but it is still the same story.The reason that Mr Tolkien made the 3 elver rings unsullied and separate is because of course it fits with what he did with them in the story and granted their keepers a FABULOUS MYSTERY.But where is the drama in that?Cluttering up the story with making rings, with no particular reason, for Elves in general just has no drama. It sounds like a thesis rather than a taut and well constructed narrative.In the series the Elven Rings arrest decline, the Dwarven Rings are central to acquisitiveness,hybris and greed, and men are just weak and seduced(we will see about men in the next season). What i am trying to say is that seeing the races of Middle Earth slowly falling under Sauron's schemes make a perfect drama and you will find that out in Episode 5 of season 2. The movies had tremendous changes even if they had a crystal clear narrative of 1200 pages but i love them. I find that series a very good endeavour, i have my issues, there are flaws but it is still very intriguing, much more than you claim it to be.
I'm glad you feel that way. I respectfully disagree. My issues with the change have nothing to do with it being a change from lore and everything to do with how it narratively robs Celebrimbor of his agency and crowning achievement. The drama of Celebrimbor going behind Sauron's back to make them will be gone. I personally don't find the drama of the elven rings potentially being corrupted very interesting. It certainly could be an interesting plot point, but instead of doing anything with it, so far all that has come of it is the ongoing circular argument of Elrond and Galadriel about whether or not to use the rings. Their arguments just go nowhere and aren't very compelling drama for me personally. But if you like it, that's great. I don't make these videos to yuck other people's yum. I just like analyzing plot structure.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Respectfully, but in your post you actually verify me with flying colours. You keep watching everything with the lore only in your mind, which inevitably makes for you really hard to grasp or even reconciliate with any change. You definitely remind of the reviewers who say "ummm, this doesn't make sense, when there is an obvious plot point in front of them which is crystal clear"
None of it works 😂 Not only have they botched the timeline by compressing it they've screwed up the order of other events, some of which are absolutely dependent upon prior outcomes to be able to come to pass. They also seem to pay very little heed to the passage of time and distance. They have events happening simultaneously that can't possibly have done. It's all so amateurish.
Read the first ten chapters of Bonesong for free! www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/story/B0DC3J555G
You've put way more thought into this than the showrunners did.
Which is what a lot of Fandoms fall into, they make the show in their head much more interesting that it actually is. If you want to see an active example of this happening and someone losing their sanity watch angry Joe reacting to Star Trek Piccard seasons, he kept giving it more score then it deserved thinking " there's no way the writers are this stupid" by the end of it, he realized the writers are this stupid and he's just making up for their mistakes for no reason.
It should also be noted that in season 1 they made it very clear they the forging required precious metals from Valinor as the metals of middle earth were too corrupted by Morgoth and their corruption would be magnified in the process. Also, their only source of Valinorian silver and gold was the dagger Galadriel carried, which did not provide enough metal for crowns. I believe they said they only barely had enough for the 3 rings.
That implies that the materials for the dwarven rings could not possibly be the same. They probably used gold from middle earth, despite knowing it was corrupted, and should expect the 7 and the 9 to magnify such corruption.
Very true!
yeah, wondered the same from the first time i saw the making of more.... and no one ever mentioned it ever...
and we see here even Sauron touched the first mithril... yeah not the moment he dropped it in, but still, as you don't see him doing things there... optically he doesn't have anything to any ring... besides the basic idea... but really, as used in this show they allways forget not only the lore they have no right of, but even what they themselves did before....
same thing with... distance between the elven kingdoms... between season 1 and 2 its just a horse chase... later on when its urgent its a week hours of WALKING... why the hack walking?
@@zoefezius6615 And Sauron also touched Finrod's dagger (in Episodes 2 and 3 of Season 1).
Yeah, that is an example where they clealry wanted it to just have symbolic weight at the time, but now I guess we are supposed to not see it as literally necessary. Or maybe they just expect the audience to mindlessly forget. Better to have kept it all as total mystery in the show than to introduce a "required" element only to violate that next time around. The show-runners' conception of the magic system is the same as Rodger Rabbit's - the magic only works when it is funny, or in this case symbolic.
I know that the source material has been discarded by Amazon, but the idea about metals from Middle Earth carrying evil, carrying an echo of Morgoth's evil capable of driving the minds into evil deeds, is nonsense.
To be a carrier or doer of evil requires _Fëa_ (spirit). A spirit that has *chosen* to do evil. Metals in Middle Earth or Valinor do not have spirit, do not have mind.
The One Ring has a corrupting effect because it carries a portion of Sauron's _Fëa_
Corrosion, the decay of metals, was the only effect caused by the dissonant chant of Melkor during the Creation.
You are spot on with your observations. In the books it makes sense for the Elves to use the Rings, since they do not know of the deceit of Sauron. Why would Galadriel put on a Ring when they know Sauron had a hand in their making. The whole point in the books is that they find out of his deception when he puts on the One Ring and Tolkien says that Elves knew his mind and took them off. Makes sense to me. And if I remember correctly, Sauron gets furious at this, invades Eregion, kills Celebrimbor and then distributes the rings of power, except for the one Celebrimbor gave Durin. Seems plenty to work with for a great plot.
But... there's a tempest in her!
@@ikmor It used to be a good tempest but then Sauron corrupted it into a bad tempest. I usually take meds for my tempest.
The Rings of SUPERVISION!!!
I’m piggybacking off what another channel keeps reiterating is that they don’t show ANYTHING about them actually forging of any of the rings. No hammers no nothin. Show celebrimbor actually forging a ring… you know cuz he’s like the greatest elf to ever do it
The original “schedule” concept, as best as inferred from what Tolkien actually wrote, was that Annatar/Sauron more or less REVEALS to Celibrimbor the basic concept and art behind making rings of power. Many rings are then made apparently while S was directly supervising, and the art of making them became more refined and the rings they made gradually became more powerful over time. It is implied that because Sauron knew exactly how they were made he also knew exactly how to make something that could control all of them which was the whole plan all along. At some point Sauron leaves Eregion and secretly goes back to Mordor and starts building his own forge. After Sauron is gone, C has his final thought on the matter and forges the THREE, specifically as his final crowning creation, and last of all. Echos with his grandad Feanor, etc. Several textual things also seem to imply, but it is never directly stated, that C use a special sauce of his own that he added to the three. The Three were given to powerful Elves and more or less held in secure locations by Cirdan, Gil Galad, and Galadriel, but basically all the rest of the original rings were still in Eregion in what I imagine is C’s “big safe o’magic rings”. Sometime after the three were made Sauron makes the one, but when he wields it - apparently not to his plans - the Elves are aware of his intentions and take off their rings and hide them. This might be the first time Sauron is aware of the Three, or maybe he knew they existed but not their exact nature, but either way he is pissed. Maybe because C used special sauce without telling him screweing up his millennia of carefully laid plans, maybe because they couldn’t be tricked. But he then invades Eregion, kills C, and takes back all the other rings. He only LATER gave out some of the other rings HIMSELF to the dwarves and men, though we aren’t told anything about how exactly he pulled this off. Presumably like always there was subterfuge. There is a nice big empty spot on the original parchment there that the show-runners could have filled with some interesting stories.
I REALLY did NOT write this to geek out, but to show how the original timeline is free of all the contradictions mentioned. All of this is basically included in the material they paid a quarter of a billion dollar to license, so why not use it. Even if you contract the actual chronology down from hundreds or thousands of years to the blink of a eye as they do in the series it all sill holds together. Personally I’m not a purist on such things and don’t feel that the show-runners HAVE to follow the original. But the hubris of trying to redo something they already had without coming up with a consistent replacement kind of says it all - they just didn’t care enough to do it cleanly.
Exactly!
I’ve never understood the opening of Fellowship, where the rings “were given “ to each race. Like no mention of the fact they werent “given “ but crafted then given. If sauron had forged all the rings himself he could have just gifen them as gifts. But Tolkein clearly said Celebrimbor made them so now the contradictions occur where Sauron or Celembrimbor has to give the rings they make as gifts. It just seems like a plot hole
I wouldn’t mind the show that much if they give out all the rings before he makes the One, and then there is wars and he takes back as many of the rings he can namely from the Dwarves since they become greedy but not corrupted to the point of fully controlling them, except for the men he can somehow control by using the One, they get to keep the rings or he turns them into wraiths some how?
@@chloe-historyandgames I think you might be thinking of the movie there. I think some of the confusion does get worked out in the books since there is a timeline. The Elves made all the rings (except the three) first, but with Sauron's participation, so I guess the Elves made them AND Sauron kind of helped to make them. But I guess if you are an immortal being that helped sing the Universe into existence doing something without being seen to do something is all in a days work. Then Sauron went off, and the three were eventually made just by the Celebrimbor accoding to Tolkien's timeline about 400 years into the ring making period. Then about 10 years later Sauron made the One. Then many years later Sauron retrieved all rings made by the elves through war, except the three. Maybe a few of the lesser ones got lost out of the whole batch, and Gandalf implies that he at first thought Bilbo's ring might have been one of those. It seems clear that the story was always that rings were made by Celebrimbor, but corrupted by Sauron. But you are right, there is a question of why didn't Sauron just bypass the middle man and make the gift rings himself as is pretty well implied in the opening of Jackson's version. Maybe he had to save up all his mojo for the one ring. I'm kind interested in seeing how they portray the making of the One on the show. After their prior terrible performance on the making of the three I'm also dreading it too. Presumably there wouldn't be any kind of ritual or chants or something since he himself is the god/angel/demon powering things in this case. As a very geeky pre-teen I remember imagining Sauron kind of going into full Maiar ethereal mode when he made his ring, and with big flaming streams of his essence ripping off and going into the ring as it formed. Maybe he would have been diminished into the goo form of S2, Ep1 until he formed a gooey finger and stuck it in the ring. 🤣
Anyway, Tolkien wrote himself into many contradictions, and was still trying to patch things up in various ways until months before his death. Its perfectly ok to leave the obscure and secret ring lore as a mystery box in the story, as long at there aren't obvious inconsistencies. But those I'm pretty sure Tolkien would say draw the attentive reader out of the beliveable secondary world.
@@MarkoBotsaris
Very well said.
I think Sauron could not bypass the middleman because, if he did, then his ring, the One, would not be tuned to the others.
I believe that when he helped craft the first rings, however many there may have been, he did not corrupt them, but he learned how they could be led to corruption if influenced by a device he could, and would, create later.
Indeed, Sauron participated in singing Arda into being, but even the Valar, among the Ainur, did not know everything; they could learn from each other, and the Maiar could learn from the Valar. More than that, Men and Elves themselves were special "information" from the mind of Ilúvatar.
The creation of the rings could be illustrated like this: Sauron helps Celebrimbor create radio receivers that could be used to hear/influence things in Arda, but, at the same time, he learns the frequency and codes necessary to create his transmitter/controller.
I don't know if this was Tolkien's original intention, but I think it works when looking back now.
Part of the problem here is not just the order of the forging (which, unlike a lot of the Tolkien contradictions, is actually a major plot point in Lord of the Rings), but the need to supply magical technobabble to 'explain' the unknowable Elvish 'magic' that created the Rings. It just leads to silliness. 'We need Three for Balance™' 'We'll make Seven because who needs Balance anyway…' Just as we didn't need an 'origin story' and hitherto unknown magical properties for _mithril_ , Tolkien's world does not need to be turned to a quasi-science-fiction milieu. Remember Tolkien fuming about Zimmerman's script describing lembas as a 'food concentrate'?
Saurons contribution, the thing he put into the ring, is his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. Would be fun to see that on screen. Just yelling "i hate you" in anakins voice at the molten gold.
But yeah, also how did sauron make the three rings dependent on the one, if the tree rings didn't include any boobytrapped information from sauron? Celebrimbor designed his rings to work with the one rings without realising one ring exists... Wow
Jackson originally intended to visualize the "cruelty and malice" by having Sauron stab himself in the hand and mix his own blood into the Ring. However, he ended up cutting that moment from the Prologue as well as a later reference to it by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond. Something I never noticed until I saw it pointed out in a RUclips video the other day is that Sauron can still be seen clutching a bloody dagger in one of the shots of him inside Mount Doom in the Prologue.
I think a lot of the reason for the way that they are going about it is to try and make the dwarven soap opera relevant. First of all, they amplify the magical properties of mithril compared to canon, to the point that you might even question how much elven magic is going into the process (and probably further brings into question Sauron's alleged contribution). The elven rings come first because of the manufactured urgency of the highly dubious take on the decline of the elves. But then we have far more melodrama than is really necessary in the acquisition of the mithril, which gives the dwarves an expanded role in something that does not concern them all that much.
The acquisition of mithril alone is not really sufficient to sustain the dwarven role in the story, so rather than the original version of nearly all of the rings being made by and for elves, then redistributed later, we get more manufactured urgency to warrant the delivery of the rings directly to the dwarves. That manufactured urgency being patently absurd, in that the race who's main skill is mining and working stone, need a magic ring in order to figure out where to make holes to let some light in because singing at it does not work. Seriously?
So its all about manufactured urgency and maintaining otherwise superfluous characters and plot threads, with no regard whatsoever for the impact on the continuity and internal "logic" of their own story, let alone on canonical events.
Since they have turned mithril into the magical substance that provides the rings' power though, it really does seem like it massively devalues the elves' contribution to the point that you would think that maybe the dwarves themselves could have been cranking out magic rings. They are not unskilled in metal work and might even not require some random human to remind them what an alloy is. They might not have the super special elven metal that we are told was vital for the forging of the three. But then its not like the elves have a lot of that lying around at the time either, so as someone else has pointed out even Celebrimbor is presumably falling back on lesser metals.
There was a scene where he held a nugget of mithril and dropped it in the molten metal while there were forging the rings for dwarves. He is basically the Ralph Wiggum of the smithy.
Perhaps it is like Feanor, who could only make the Silmarils once, and never again. And Jahvana who could never make the trees again. Celebrimbor could only make the three rings perfectly, the other rings become lesser and tainted, because he should never have made them. Not sure that is the point they are trying to make though, Celebrimbor does not looks very spent. Also I feel like they are trying to say, that the dwarven and human rings are different, and that is why the dwarves react different from humans to the rings. Although I am almost certain, the point Tolkien is making is, that the rings are the same, but the races react differently.
I couldn't agree more. It does seem like they thought of the poem first and the characters not at all.
A poem is a different medium than a novel which is different from a movie. Transferring from one to the next is not a 1:1 ratio. Things are gained and lost, and they have to be for the betterment of the finished work.
From the bits I’ve seen, the three rings needed to be made first to explain why Galadriel knows stuff she shouldn’t/couldn’t otherwise know. They seem to be using the rings to hand wave away tricky plotting.
Love this channel.
Thank you!
I think there is an upcoming info about Sauron's effect on 3 elven rings. The following is from an article in tvinsider:
Second to his lust for more rings is Sauron’s desire to get the Elven rings back. “While he didn’t directly touch them, which is a big thing this season, [Galadriel] has this ring that he put all this effort into, and he wants that back,” Vickers admits. Sauron “covets” these jewels, “and particularly hers,” he explains, “because he knows what they represented when he was making them.”
It seems the writers are totally messed up in the ring storyline.
That doesn't mean he'll succeed in getting them back. We'll have to wait and see.
@anthonybernacchi2732 i see, if they follow the books, yes, he cannot take them, buy my point is the part "he put all this effort into". It does not make sense to me according to S1E8. Sauron's involvement in the elven rings is strange!
I'm sure professor Tolkien pondered at great length the best sequence to forge the rings, so that it fitted best in the story. He seldom, if ever, scribbled this kind of thing in a hurry.
That the screenwriters had the audacity to change the order of the ring forging only speaks either of their arrogance or their ineptitude.
Arrogance and immaturity are the hallmarks of this show.
And mind you, the Dwarven Rings are said to be not functioning correctly according to Celebrimbor so Annatar coming in actually made things worse even though he himself put that on the lies in the letter to Gil Galad.
This show is so messed up it’s actually sad. This is a show that focuses on Galadriel a great deal and we didn’t even see Celeborn yet. They mentioned him once in a scene in season 1 that seemed like it was added last minute to “satisfy” fans. We didn’t see Celebrian yet either who’s Galadriel’s daughter and should be having a romance with Elrond right about now instead of us having to endure Isildur and Estrid wasting our time.
Originally, I was so hype to see Numenor being added to the Amazon map. Like yes! The Second Age. If only I knew what trash it would be 🤣🤷♂️
Anyway, you’re amazing. Bye!
Yeah, so far they've done Celeborn and Numenor dirty. Numenor in particular.
IIRC, Elrond and Celebrían hadn't met yet at this point in canon (not that the canon timeline has ever constrained RoP before).
Clearly the reason for the Estrid storyline is that no matter how loose an adaptation RoP may be, if they want it to bear any resemblance whatsoever to Tolkien canon then Isildur has to get laid at least once by the end of Season 5.
(SPOILER WARNING: Valandil's death in Season 2 Episode 5 is clearly for a related reason: to motivate Isildur to name his son after Valandil. I had suspected ever since Season 1 that Valandil would die in a spectacular or memorable way. His name also gave him an unusual form of plot armor, not protecting his physical safety but his moral stature: he could never have gone over to Ar-Pharazôn's side.)
This Schedule " comes from the same writters what wrote that a master craftsman didn't know what an alloy is until being told by (at the time) a random human . Not even to mentioned that the whole process of forging the 19 rings of power took 300 years and not 3 weeks (or it could be 3 days since Sauron teleports between Eregion and Mordor)
My opinion on the poem was that the order was just from the smaller set of rings to the largest set. Not something related to the order in which the sets were made. Also given that the poem ends with "mortal men doomed to die", it could have been in order of the longest-living to the shortest-living. (although that would depend on which group of humans you're looking at in Tolkien's world)
You are absolutely right. Those were likely the reasons it was ordered that way in the poem. It was absolutely NOT meant to convey the order in which they were created. But the show seems dead set on evoking the poems order in their plot structure even though that is not the order in which they were forged and there is narrative dissonance created when you change the original order.
IIRC, Tolkien made up the poem one day in the bath!
All the rings were made for the elves themselves in the text; Celebrimbor making the 7 and 9 with dwarves and men in mind, is an invention of the showrunners.
I think Sauron peed in the forge for the Dwarven rings. For the rings of men he’ll download a brown load.
that was Galadriel
I’ll never get over how they dug all these plot holes for themselves because they ignored the source material.
The writers will have only read the rings poem and took it to be the order they were forged in:
1 - Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
2 - Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
3 - Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
4 - One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
This is the depth of their respect for the story, the lore and the world building.
After this show is done you should cleanse your pallet with Andor.
I've heard that it was good, but I have yet to see it. I'll add it to the list!
Andor a snore fest
@@AlaniTheScriptMage it´s good compared to other disney star wars, but insanely overrated besides that.
When Sauron inevitably attempts to take the rings for himself, what information will Celebrimbor be able to withhold? Sauron knows of the other three rings and knows that Gladerial and company have them. The show will either have to 1) not have Sauron attempt to take the rings, 2) torture Celebrimbor for no gain, or 3) worse portray Celebrimbor's death as his comeuppance for assisting Sauron in the crafting and distribution of rings.
Way they they decided to make rings in the show removes Annatar the betrayal and process of Celebrimbor and Sauron to learn how to make the rings. As they first made hundreds of lesser rings (which is important for Hobbit and Lord of the Rings as Gandalf, originally thought that Bilbo's ring was one of these lesser rings), and then they made 17 rings of power to elves which Annatar/Sauron stole and gave to dwarves and men in order to control them. In shows version of making the rings they leave out these important parts. Shows version gives us the dwarven drama, but I am not sure how to think it as I am not sure can they fit in the Sauron's regret to give rings to dwarves because they were immune to his control and his efforts to try get rings back.
The way they've engineered the story basically removes Celebrimbor's agency - Galadriel is now fundamentally the character at fault for Sauron's deception (both initially and in not telling the truth in Eregion), Celebrimbor is the pawn that suffers because of her. Galadriel is now the one who pushed for the Three, and the one that sacrificed part of herself for their making, rather than them being Celebrimbor's final redemption. It's also resulted in this tiresome run of contrivances to prevent Celebrimbor finding out who Annatar is.
My tip for today is Summoning - The Legend of the Master Ring (lyrics are from Tolkien)
Vengo del canal del Chou de Gabriel Incertis, me gusta el análisis de la serie 😊
Gracias!
I think the Tolkien estate was there to keep track of the events so that even if they are (laughably condensed) they would happen in the correct order. I have no idea what they are doing (other than greedily counting the mone) as not only have they introduced events that never took place, they have also killed Celeborn off-screen in the show even though he doesn't die in the books, they have quite forcefully with ridiculous plotpoints have Galadriel visit Numenor just to meet Sauron and then have the basics of storytelling totally messed up with the forging of the rings. And then there is the ridiculous birth of Mordor by some magical sword-key and one angry tavern boi.
Good stuff, your audio is only coming out of my left ear though. Not a big deal, might want to check whatever you're doing your audio in though!
Yeah, it's been a problem awhile. I unfortunately haven't figured out how to fix it yet
@@AlaniTheScriptMageThis is usually a result of recording a mono source (microphone) on a stereo audio track. The audio will only be recorded on one channel, the left one. If you’re able to record on a mono audio track, that would solve it.
They made three elven rings corrupted, cause Halbrand touched mithril in s1 and now the elves have premonitions through visions. So there's no need to forge the One Ring, cause he corrupted them all and know about the three.
Sauron is the elvish Steve Jobs to the elvish Steve Wozniak I guess. One motherboard to rule them all.
I think it’s implied that Sauron was the one who taught them ringcraft in the first place. We only see the first part of that process when halbrand augfeats amplifying the mithril’s light by mixing it into an alloy. Annatar’s role in Eregion this season seems to me almost like a foreman. Or even even a patron, commissioning the rings be made. His whole pitch to celebrimbor when he transformed into anatar was “the free people’s need rings, and you’re the only one who can do it. Don’t let me down.” He doesn’t seem to play a large collaboratory role. He even feigns incompetence at times to spur celebrimbor on or to stroke his ego. We know damn well Sauron can craft this rings.l, but there’s also a cost to his life force that he’s basically tricking celebrimbor into paying for him. Celebrimbor is an unwilling dark Christ figure honestly, being sacrificed by the father of lies to usher his infernal kingdom into the world.
I know that's what the show is implying. I just think that him teaching him ringcraft while in the guise of Halbrand seems strange, seeing as it would appear inexplicable to any elf that this "king of the southlands" would know smithing that the grandson of Feanor wouldn't.
he is tired and forgetful because Sauron is corrupting his mind. It is implied many many times "You do not always do as your told" but Sauron has not told him to do anything other than in his mind. This is similar to Galadriel it is to show that Sauron's power was not originally darkness but becomes that way due to what happens to him. They reversed the order to make it fit the plot of the series is not really a big deal. Celebrimbor wants to be remembered for something that matters and Sauron uses that to his advantage the focus is not on the craft itself but vanity and pride.
Have they said where they got more of the Valinorian gold and silver they needed to alloy the Mithril in S1? I'd imagine they'd have run out of what they had from Finrod's dagger right?
Only one of the many logic holes one can stumble into. I do wonder what the Tolkien Estate feels about this adaptation. Maybe they are checked out and simply happy to have the income.
They are totally checked out... just swimming around in their money-bin.
They have Simon Tolkien as some sort of advisor and from all I have seen he resents his grandfather's entire legacy.
After Christopher died it seems there isn't anyone in the Tolkien estate who really cares about the lore or the legacy.
In fairness, Tolkien mentioned in his letters that his goal when the prospect of a LotR film was first mooted was "Art or Cash". The Tolkien Estate may well feel that the humongous fee Amazon paid them for the rights fully fulfilled JRRT's wishes (and JRRT might well have agreed with them, especially since he was skeptical about the possibility of dramatizations of his work being any good anyway).
The show runners only skimmed the material and barely know any of it, and respect none of it.
How could they have used the exact same materials? Did Galadriel have 3 sets of Valinorian daggers??? 🤡🤡🤡
The show needs its fans to fill up all the holes in the narrative for them.
Can it be explained? Yes. No way they all brought nothing else but a dagger.
Is it explained in the show? No, the writers don't know, don't care.
Thou shalt not think too deeply about the Rings of Power!
nothing works in this show at all.
... also, how many rings can you get out of a nugget of mithril and one single Valinorian dagger?
... wait, didn't that whole first nugget go in with that Valinorian dagger? Did they have stuff left over and they just added THAT to the new mithril? Which means the mix indeed would be different?
Seems to work for eveyone except the lore-fanatics that bury themselves in their own imagination and expectations.
What's bothering me is why is every ring the same as the one it doesn't work the other rings didn't corrupt anything till the one ring was made the showrunners cannot write
ANGER! 😠 This show just reworks lore for some dramatic effect that has no dramatic effect. Tis an adomination!
Let me tell you why it works and why you totally miss the point and cannot follow and grasp, when something is outside your lore knowledge. It really amazes me that so called Tolkien experts and nerds cannot understand the inevitability of changing things due to the huge timeline. The difference between what is essentially a draft outline of a story and a full developed story is often substantial. Once you begin writing a story, things which you do not demand a great deal of in the outline phase need to be relooked at. This is the case with the order of the rings creation...The people designing the show not only have to avoid the march to the inevitable ( kind of book of the film in reverse) but they have to reveal more of the dilemmas and doubts of the races of middle earth, and in doing so, deal thematically with the same issues that Mr. Tolkien did. Sure there are very substantial changes to the way the story is told but it is still the same story.The reason that Mr Tolkien made the 3 elver rings unsullied and separate is because of course it fits with what he did with them in the story and granted their keepers a FABULOUS MYSTERY.But where is the drama in that?Cluttering up the story with making rings, with no particular reason, for Elves in general just has no drama. It sounds like a thesis rather than a taut and well constructed narrative.In the series the Elven Rings arrest decline, the Dwarven Rings are central to acquisitiveness,hybris and greed, and men are just weak and seduced(we will see about men in the next season). What i am trying to say is that seeing the races of Middle Earth slowly falling under Sauron's schemes make a perfect drama and you will find that out in Episode 5 of season 2. The movies had tremendous changes even if they had a crystal clear narrative of 1200 pages but i love them. I find that series a very good endeavour, i have my issues, there are flaws but it is still very intriguing, much more than you claim it to be.
I'm glad you feel that way. I respectfully disagree. My issues with the change have nothing to do with it being a change from lore and everything to do with how it narratively robs Celebrimbor of his agency and crowning achievement. The drama of Celebrimbor going behind Sauron's back to make them will be gone.
I personally don't find the drama of the elven rings potentially being corrupted very interesting. It certainly could be an interesting plot point, but instead of doing anything with it, so far all that has come of it is the ongoing circular argument of Elrond and Galadriel about whether or not to use the rings. Their arguments just go nowhere and aren't very compelling drama for me personally.
But if you like it, that's great. I don't make these videos to yuck other people's yum. I just like analyzing plot structure.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Respectfully, but in your post you actually verify me with flying colours. You keep watching everything with the lore only in your mind, which inevitably makes for you really hard to grasp or even reconciliate with any change. You definitely remind of the reviewers who say "ummm, this doesn't make sense, when there is an obvious plot point in front of them which is crystal clear"
None of it works 😂
Not only have they botched the timeline by compressing it they've screwed up the order of other events, some of which are absolutely dependent upon prior outcomes to be able to come to pass.
They also seem to pay very little heed to the passage of time and distance. They have events happening simultaneously that can't possibly have done.
It's all so amateurish.
It actually breaks the whole lore in middle earth.