While I understand why you’d want to think of this as its own story, separated from LOTR, I don’t think you should extend that concession to the show when reviewing it. Point of fact: Amazon did go to the effort of buying some of the IP and has marketed this as a LOTR story. They could have spent all that considerable sum on their own original IP, but didn’t. In every instance, their inconsistency and incompetence with regard to Tolkien’s work should be highlighted. That is as much of the issue as the quality of the show per se. Personally, I think it fails in both regards. It isn’t even a good show on its own merits.
She gets to review it however she wants. I appreciate her skill in separating it from Tolkien and THEN demonstrating why it is still poor story telling and bad writing. It makes the critique even stronger when she finally does compare to Tolkien.
It's really up to Tolkien's estate to protect his work and its representation in other media, if they're willing to sell the rights to a company that doesn't treat it with the respect it deserves that's on them imo. I could forgive them playing fast and loose with the lore if they actually made a good show but unfortunately it's terrible.
Exactly! This is what everyone forgets! If they changed to names they could have made this exact show with no reference to Tolkien; it's different enough that no one could successfully sue them at this point. Buying the name while forsaking the content is a shameless bait and switch. Of course there can be changes and adaptations-even Peter Jackson's films did that. But this is abandoning the source material almost completely. We should all recognize that this is unethical to the viewers lured to the show on false pretenses even if one doesn't care about an author's legacy!
I find it hilarious that the first 20 or so minutes of this season reveals that Sauron spent almost the entire second age before the start of the show as a puddle. It's like the writers didn't even consider how Galadriel's fervent pursuit of Sauron looks with that context. The other elves already considered it a snipe hunt and now she seems like an Ahab without a whale in retrospect.
It’s like someone took Van Gogh’s “Stary Night” and painted all the star different colors with crayons to make it more diverse and then putting it out there as an improved piece of art. All you’ve done is ruin someone else’s wonderful art. You aren’t being true to anything and you certainly aren’t making it better.
@@aleksoctop yup, not only the acting, mannerisms, facial expressions and speech, but the actor himself and perhaps the way that wig fits clumsily on his head. The guy looks like Sheen. Which leads me to believe that that's what they were going for. Which further begs the question: why would they have the biggest and darkest villain in this show portrayed, if only for one scene, as the vampire lord who launched a thousand memes, with his outrageous performance in one of the dumbest works of fiction ever committed to film, Twilight? The answer to this question is probably the same answer to the question why would they also portray him as Venom from Spider Man. Probably a rough patch in Sauron's life, before he'd read those self-help books.
People are trying to say it’s Sauron playing the long game getting killed to come back and be unknown because he was loosing his faithful. I get the fact he’s a deceiver etc but it’s not for me. You want the villain to instil fear and a sense of immense power over his followers. So try to imagine Darth Vader pleading with a handful of storm troopers and his generals. Then a storm trooper attempts to shoot him within a blaster followed by grand moff tarkin killing him in some way. It’s just never going to happen. I have so much else I dislike but the other major thing that stands out to me is the orc (the being created with the sole purpose of war) questioning wether they should go to war right before consoling his wife and child 😂
Exactly. Sauron having to convince the low infantry to join him is nonsense. Such depiction degrades this villain because, in the books, Sauron was involved in the creation and multiplication of the first Orcs when working as Lieutenant of Angband in the absence of his boss. Sauron knew the "genetic code" of the orcs. Besides that, Sauron was the greatest necromancer among the Dark Lord's folk, a sorcerer able to command from afar with spells like the famous _Ash Nazg durbatulûk_ ...
not the figure of terror and fear, Master of Werewolves who can assume the shape of giant vampire bat, whose very glance can drive a fearful Orc to its knees... that Tolkien depicted. @@gabrielcruz6752 Sure he can still "appear" beautiful... so I do like the "majesty of Annatar the Maia" reveal, but Sauron should be a dread fear to his followers.
The take of Sauron's story is so flat that it's obvious that Halbrand is Sauron. The delivery is different on how we used to love series like GOT where there is a character building based on theories.
I'm increasingly convinced that the writers do not believe that Sauron was powerful in his own right and that he came into his power with the forging of the One. Which would be a valid choice in a different story but effectively neuters the big bad. The fact that he shows no signs of even working towards gaining power when we first meet him just makes matters worse.
Disappointed you didn't mention the way Galadriel became a ringbearer. I mean, they kind of had to do that as it was in no way believable that anyone would willingly give this character a ring of power, but good lord. ALSO, he not only touched the dagger in Numenor, he also TOUCHED THE FREAKING MITHRIL! The, according to this conception, sole magical part of the ring!
And all i see online is people gaslighting Tolkien fans telling them that is in fact very Tolkien in spirit, and Sauron being depicted very well in his deception. I know insulting people is not ok, but it feels like being abused at this point
It's hate, the * you don't like it bcuz*insert minority * so that means you're an* insert buzzword* hence you must be a right wing and thus you're wrong in anything. It's basically programming and they're literally brainwashed. It's sad at this point, I feel like a prisoner in a world full of idiots and only the smart ppl are being treated like idiots.....
@@goodputin4324When you complain about PoCs being in the show, you create room for Amazon to dismiss legitimate criticism as racism. Please stop helping Amazon.
season 2 is even worse, there's no way in hell any of season 2 is better. The first episode is well paced but just wait until episode 2 and 3 which are some of the worst TV I've ever seen in my life.
@@dws0828 first it was the Irish Hobbits and not Gandalf running around the desert while not Saruman tries to catch them and then in episode three it was the insufferable Numenorean politics and the horrible new characters of Theo and not Legolas, oh and the adventures of CGI horse vs the CGI spiders. Hell, even the actor that played Bronwyn decided to quit this show, leaving her very awkward death off screen.
@@purefoldnz3070 nah, the Bronwyn Actress quit to have more time for her activism... and whoever is provewatching this show for inconsitencies is either as blind as Miriel ( if only she was consistently blind and not only half the time ) or does a very poor job. In the scene with not Legolas, the arrows arrive from at least 2 different directions and Arondir finnaly appearing in the opposite one out of a tree...
I don't think the plot about the three rings is gonna be about the purification of them, but the knowingly uncertain and risky relationship that the elves have with them. The rings are Sauron's scheme essentially, but he fails to utilize them to enslave the elves and therefore hurries to create the rest of the rings for other civilizations.
@@timbothejedi4146 I think it's a decision the showrunner made to make it more reasonable that the 3 are also bound to the One. Tolkien never quite reasons why they were subject to his will if he had nothing to do with them?
@@okultusrexus3660according to the books, the 3 greater rings and the other 16 became dangerous when Sauron "activated" the One Ring, the last to be created, by chanting the spell _Ash Nazg durbatulûk_ ... According to Tolkien's chronology, the 3 rings were harmless for many years before the One was forged, as a bait that calms and distracts the prey. In my own interpretation, the One and the rest of the rings formed a network of invisible spiritual threads embedded in the fabric of the world. Sauron designed the network in such a way that the network became a trap in which the One worked as a "central node". Celebrimbor forged the 3 greater rings and "plugged" them into the spiritual network, without knowing that he was walking into the trap in waiting. The 3 greater rings were then bound to the One but were unsullied. Sauron was unable to insert a "corrupting curse" inside the 3, a curse that he was able to insert in all of the other 9 and 7.
Considering the show runners said that this season Sauron was getting the "breaking bad" treatment. It's more likely that the waterfall jump scene is a reference to The Fugitive with Harrison Ford, than it is a reference to anything in the Silmarillion. They don't have the rights to the book for which they are making a TV Show... I still can't come to terms with this. lol Using this information as a lens. I started understanding why they are making weird story decisions. Why Poppy was discovered following Nori and the stranger? Because they wanted to emulate the LOTR scene when Sam was caught by Gandalf. They've done this in Season 1, and clearly it's not going to stop in Season 2. Doomed to fail from the inception.
@@joshb7326 No I think she's being very fair and objective which is difficult for partisan types to accept or even understand. It's not all zero sum my friend.
@@okultusrexus3660 I agree I think she's fair, I didn't say otherwise, but you can tell it is poor story telling when even a fair review is struggling to say strong positives
@@joshb7326 Yeah some of the fair criticism is how it's a bit shoddy production wise at times. Compared to GOT you didn't have some of these issues, until the end episodes maybe. But the production was outstanding overall.
@@okultusrexus3660 I'm talking about production in general tho, I'm talking about the story, character development, directing etc. That's what's important to me in making a good story
First of all, I accept that this is your channel & you must act as you see fit. However, and this is only my opinion, there are no excuses: if this is supposed to be based on Tolkien's works, it is shoddy, poorly written, plot hole ridden drivel, attempting to ride on & cash in on his coat tails; on the other hand, if it is supposed to be a stand alone fantasy story, it is still shoddy, poorly written, plot hole ridden drivel!
I think that is a valid opinion and I more or less agree with you. It does not work as a Tolkien adaptation or its own story. I speak less harshly not because I disagree, but because I find it more constructive (and better for my sanity) to appreciate elements I like and approach it with a stubborn aura of positivity.
Elrond acts as if it’s life or death as he hurry’s to deliver the rings after being chased. Then arrives and decides to jump off the cliff to evade the delivery of the rings. Wow, great storytelling. I agree, when you watch the inventive storytelling about the east etc. where not much material was written the show seems serviceable. However, even if you watch it for entertainment value the story seems awkward, convenient, and unnecessary at times. Thanks for your review
Honestly, I like that you are detaching it from tolkien and trying to be fair but you can just say that its clearly absolutely terrible haha. The Sauron stuff wasn't unwatchable but the whole point of flashbacks is to either give new information or change the context of existing information about the character. The flashback doesn't do this. The only thing we learned was how he got the southland insignia and on the raft. That was not worth the time we spent watching it. Not-Gandalf and Nori is awful. The walking song as directions to get into Rhun? Really? It was just boring and a pathetic imitation of frodo and sam walking to Mordor which they even repurpose direct lines from the films for. The Elves. Wow lol... Firstly the Gil-Galad actor is Horrendous. The scene where Galadriel does the Sauron reveal honestly came across as people standing up reading their lines to each other. You're spot on about the chase missing the pre-lude as well, I didn't think of that. Elrond jumping off a cliff and not only surviving but being completely unharmed is laughable. Its also laughable that Galadriel is given a ring based on her actions in the show.
I miss the times when one could be fascinated and deeply enjoy a show, as opposed to talking oneself into enduring to watch an embarrassing attempt of one.
All the Rings of Power are corrupted, its not that Sauron made them, they were made by following the ring crafting LORE provided by Sauron, so they are all the same "corruption".
That's right. With the One Ring, Sauron has the power to control the Three Rings because they were made with the knowledge he gave to Celebrimbor and the other smiths (which is also true in RoP, although it happens over a much shorter period of time than in Tolkien). For the same reason, the Three lose their powers permanently once the One is destroyed at the end of LotR; when the bearers of the Three carry them into the West, they are no longer Rings of Power, but merely cultural artifacts of inestimable artistic and historic value, which will presumably be preserved in the Undying Lands until the end of the world. The Seven and the Nine corrupt their wearers directly, without Sauron using the One, because Sauron personally took part in their making.
The Three aren't corrupted. They are under the domination of the One, yes, but not corrupted like the Seven and Nine are. Those will ever have a dark influence on their bearers. Not so the Three.
They may of achieved getting a rugged viggo mortensen Aragorn looking character with halbrand but boy does charlie vickers not look good in that blond wig with his rugged good looks he does not look elven whatsoever and wasn't annatar supposed to have the the perfect elven looks
I also try to be kinder and have empathy. But from my perspective its not good, its mediocre. Not terrible, not great. But compared to Lotr trilogy, the books, even the Hobbit, it underdelivers.
Sauron did not touch the dagger. He blocked Galadriel's arm. He had no reason to touch the dagger as he did not know elves would use it to create the three rings. In the unfinished tales, Tolkien does speak of the ring having unexpected effect on Galadriel, so basically all the main elves gained the skill of foresight and maybe other things too.
Sauron's future prison experience may happen in a later season of RoP, in which case it will seem less repetitive due to the time that will have passed between seasons for the audience (although the Númenor storyline will probably still be awkward no matter how it's handled). I didn't think of the possibility of Poppy being a ringer. That would be really cool, and the writers could have been inspired to do it by the fact that many viewers (me included!) suspected Poppy of being Sauron during Season 1. After all, she was the classic "least likely suspect", she was present when the fireflies died, and her entire family was conveniently killed in an accident... I suspect, however, that the writers simply didn't think of having Poppy in Season 2 until they saw the chemistry between her and Nori in Season 1. The entire structure of the opening of the Stranger and Nori's storyline for this season is almost identical to that of Frodo and Sam's story in "The Two Towers". In both cases, two characters break away from the other storylines to travel east, end up lost and walking in circles, realize someone is following them and set a trap for that person, only to have the other person join them on their journey and help them find their way. Homage, influence or rip-off? (For that matter, is this another hint that this version of Poppy shouldn't be trusted? No, that would probably be too sophisticated.) I'm sorry to say that the chase scene with Galadriel and Elrond reminded me of an old Peanuts comic strip in which Lucy was chasing Linus because he had something she wanted (I forget what) and kept shouting after him, "Gimme it! Gimme it!" I also was disappointed by the props for the Three Rings when they first appeared in S1E8. This is one instance where I regret the fact that RoP isn't a direct spinoff of the Jackson movies, in which the Three were more impressive. I know Jackson still has the original props for Narya, Nenya and Vilya in a warehouse somewhere (I saw them at a touring exhibition years ago), and it would have been much better if RoP could simply have borrowed them. I presume that Nenya landing at Galadriel's feet was intended to imply that Nenya "chose" her, rather like how Green Lantern rings "choose" their wearers.
The hobbits were always kind of detached with what was going on in middle earth, they didn't seem aware of any wars, just loving life in the country. But I suppose the series reveals why 'Gandalf' is close with the hobbits.
I just felt confused watching this. I often wondered what was happening, and I felt bored in the end. I doubt I'll finish the series on Amazon, but I'll definitely watch the rest through your reviews!
Adar recast was because Jason Mawle wanted to move on to other things. As for odd/jarring cuts, there's an insert shot near the end of ep 3 that that really pulled me out. I watched it several times in attempt to understand why they edited it the way they did, it just felt overly long for what it needed to do.
Saying Sauron should be in chains in a later episode tells me you are thinking about how actions in this episode don't fit in with the lore and may diminish later episodes if Sauron gets imprisoned in Númenor. Not only do the show runners / writers of this show seem to look at lore as just suggestions, they don't think through how their changes can cause problems as their story progresses. It's a textbook example of bad fanfiction.
I can live with the fan fiction plot, It's the human characters and the villains other than Adar that are repulsing me from this show, specifically the Gandalf hunters. They are so tacky it's unreal. The Numenoreans come off as a lobotomized cult at this point, Farazon isn't even trying one tiny oz to hide the look on his face and everyone is just derp cheering the entire time in Numenor, it's like watching a South Park episode. All the characters in the show have to be extremely stupid for anything to have progressed like this and it really shows, it's like everyone but the kings and Sauron are dim wits. Elrond is almost breaking the 4th wall at this point because of how coherent he is, they have to soft banish his character it looks like.
I think they’re showing well how Elrond is a pessimist like in the movies “the ring cannot stay here” or “he has chosen exile” or “The race of men is failing the blood of Númenor is all but spent, its pride and dignity forgotten. It is because of men the ring survives” or "Here you will dwell, bound to you grief, under the fading trees, until all the world has changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent".. geeez man 😂
The horse chase sequence was bad. It was supposed to produce tension between the characters while providing cool visuals, but as you said, they narratively missed the actual tentative scene before it, plus given that Galadriel wasn't going to go to extreme lengths to get them, like hurting Elrond, it ended up being totally silly and redundant and instantly reminded me teenagers chasing each other around the living room table, cause one of them was about to tell on the other to daddy and it made me cringe.
Also, a minor thing - from "Of the rings of power and the third age" - "Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.” Here, the last phrase "yet they also were subject to the One" is also important. So yes, the rings were still pure till the time, but eventually Elrond's fear came into reality - those were also subjected to the One ring's slavery when that was (will be in this timeline) made. But anyway, very good pointing out this, otherwise, both the point of them being pure and Galadriel being right after the first season's trust on Sauron before knowing him (though according to lore among elves only Gil Galad and Elrond distrusted his form that time so I was never so shocked like others do here) and also Elrond's foresight remains undiscussed.
@@okultusrexus3660 not sure how Tolkien himself rationalized it, perhaps because of his pursuance or influencing for the rings to be made in the first place which occurred in this show as well. In case of the show, however, another non-canon way it might have been hinted - I never understood at first why the scene where Galadriel confronts Sauron in Season one finale was so built up and highlighted, but in this scene Sauron touches Galadriel's short sword with pure Gold from Valinor - not sure if they tried to highlight it to cover up this incongruence in original Tolkien literature (like many other contradictions that had been originally between editions and letters and notes). But whatever they did, they should have pointed that out in post-show explanatory videos. Massive shows built on very little prequel literature of Second age like this one needs a lot of histories and lores content additional to the episodes, GoT for example released Histories and Lores episodes additional to each season in DVD releases. I don't know if Amazon will do. The fanbase do have some valid reasons to get mad in absence of such explanations.
@@MonirZamanMon In my own interpretation, the One and the other 19 rings formed a network of invisible spiritual threads embedded in the fabric of the world. Sauron designed the network in such a way that the network became a trap in which the One worked as a "central node". Celebrimbor forged the 3 greater rings in the absence of Sauron, but the elf "plugged" the rings into the spiritual network, without knowing that he was walking into the trap in waiting. The 3 greater rings were then bound to the One but were unsullied, because Sauron was unable to insert a "corrupting curse" inside the 3, a curse that he was able to insert in all of the other 9 and 7. According to the books, the 3 greater rings and the other 16 became dangerous when Sauron "activated" the One Ring, the last to be created, by chanting the spell _Ash Nazg durbatulûk_ ... According to Tolkien's chronology, the 3 rings were harmless, didn't transmit Sauron's will, during ten years before the One was forged, as a bait that calms and distracts the prey.
Sauron is nothing but indimidating throughout all the writings, i do not feel he is a dominant force in Arda, the only thing that looks cool is the Orcs in make up again. They look Grim and i love that
They are beginning to realise that the entire saga of the Ring is not suited for television but it's way to late to back out of it. The stakes are to high
I can't take anyone seriously who say S2 is much worse than S1, those are the people who are politically invested in seeing it fail. I.E "culture war" losers. The worst you could say about it is that it stayed the same, but personally I think it was a significant improvement. Far from great, but also far from trash.
Not far from trash though. They simply ignored what Tolkien wrote. The appendices had more than enough details to write a better tv series. I myself could have provided a better story across those 5 seasons than what these writers were capable of
I think S2 does slightly less bad in terms of television, but is far far worse in terms of being anything resembling Tolkien. I actually tried to get through episode 2 but couldn't. They didn't just break the story and completely destroy the best aspects of every character, but also managed to paint themselves into future corners that they won't be able to get out of without some "it was only a dream" or "Middle Earth multi-verse" or some sort of daytime soap ridiculous "twist" crap.
A friend of mine pointed out that all elven craft has a strong effect on elves. Feanor’s perfect works aren’t cursed, yet the elves go wild over them. I am excited to see how the faulty nature of the elves is enlarged/enhanced through the power of the three. Celebrimbor’s line in the next episode kinda confirms this idea, to me.
Dont worry it gets much worse with Ep2 & 3 the writing of this show is very poor in many cases worse than S1, I dont know much about the lore of Tolkien but the story just does not flow or even make sense at times. I looked up the actual story and they should have kept to the same story, although i did hear it was Tolkien's estate that wanted the change. You are 100% right Sauron is anything but a powerful lord and was asking to get killed by the Orcs during the coronation. Galadriel still seems pretty bad as well it does not look like they have taken the time to re-set the character.
I often have the feeling with this show that the writers are trying to keep the Tolkien Estate happy by demonstrating that they are drawing primarily on the material to which Amazon bought the rights and not following the posthumously published material (although they have taken various names and concepts from the posthumous books, presumably with the Estate's specific permission in each case). The infamous mithril backstory from Season 1 gave me this impression especially strongly: the Appendices say only that the other two Silmarils were lost at the end of the First Age without specifying what happened to them, so the whole absurdity of one of them ending up in a tree on top of the Misty Mountains seems like the writers reassuring the Estate that they understand they don't have the Silmarillion rights.
ScriptMage i think if there is a spectrum of what you think about the show, from 'its not awful' to 'absolute sci-fi blasphemy and the worst thing to happen to creativity' we probably sit somewhere very similar :)
I enjoyed rings of power, it still brought me into that world. I liked the story they have weaved to create the actually events leading to the creation of the rings and the dynamics between the races. Plus Amazon have worked well with the Tolkien estate and did their homework, orcs did mock their own leaders, yes Sauron did try to reach for Galadriel's mind, and Galadriel was described as a man maiden in books because of her athleticism. What frightens me more is the public's negative reception of something I actually enjoyed watching with my Dad, I felt for all these characters, and I think it's a good show.
I don't agree with many of the criticism of how Sauron is depicted. Tolkien wrote Sauron as an entity that looses the human form and passes centuries in a "shapeless" dorm and then comes back. And its a shapeshifter and a manipulator. The show is depicting that. Sauron is not supposed to be some kind of military leader, general, he's the personification of temptation for humanity. And when Morgoth is defeated, Sauron is literally middle management that wants to take the place of the boss but is an incompetent boss. I think is fine.
Sauron's speech to the Orcs is pretty much pure Tolkien in content. Definitely not in the delivery or anything else in the scene. Because Morgoth and Sauron both believed that Orcs would never be accepted by the other races, so they need to conquer and take over Middle-Earth to survive. The non Tolkien part of this scene is that Sauron would never try to convince the Orcs of anything because he wouldn't need to. Morgoth made them to be the perfect race for his purposes. Homicidally aggressive and completely subservient to him through fear. Sauron was his most powerful servant and could control the Orcs in the same way. No one would crown him, because he'd simply crown himself and make brutal examples of anyone who disagreed with him.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage it's almost like the writers don't know how to write evil characters who can never be redeemed, only stopped. Bring back plots that end in Princess Bride's "I want my father back you son of a bitch." We aren't supposed to be rooting for Sauron, or even feeling sympathy for him at all. Yet these people want us to see him as an almost tragic figure.
I'm thankful you aren't in the kneejerk "If it's not 100% faithful, it's an abomination" camp. They way *I* look at it is that it's like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but for Tolkien. We're jamming a bunch of characters and events together that were in no proximity (either geographically or chronologically) to each other and forging a new story that looks a lot like a typical Lord of the Rings story (if LotR was the template for ALL Middle-earth stories.). It's doing it's own thing. It's doing it in the same way that any modern TV show handles plots. Too much reliance on the Mystery Box and subverting the expectations of readers who know the whole story already. What we've lost (and I find this in all TV, not just this show) is that we've lost the ability and desire to just tell a story in as effective a way as possible, without trying to constantly fool or surprise the viewers. Just show us the thing we came here to see! I think writers second-guess themselves by becoming bored with their own stories in the process of actually writing them all out. They panic, and then think they need to hide the path better, ,or completely subvert the expectation of the reader. Look at Game of Thrones season 8. All they had to do was tell the story they'd set up for seven seasons. Just deliver that story. But nope. Just endlessly dumb decisions made to foil expectations just for the sake of not arriving at the conclusion fans had figured out years in advance. Just MAKE Jon Snow the true heir of the Targaryens. How hard is that? How cool is that? How satisfying is that? Let Jaime kill Cersei. Or better yet, let Arya, wearing a Jaime face, kill Cersei. The Hound vs the Mountain was the only result that everyone saw coming, but still delighted us. But back to this show. If it just wanted to tell a straightforward, Tolkien-flavored TV series with epic moments, they can still pull it off... they just need to ditch the Mystery Box...
That is very well put. I've never thought to connect the over reliance on subversion to writers getting bored with their own stories. An interesting theory. I'll have to stew on that.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage I think it's 90% of why it's taken George RR Martin (and Patrick Rothfuss) more than a decade each to write their next books. They're bored with their own stories, having thought of all the fun, cool stuff (the big plot points) years or DECADES ago. It has to be just a slog to actually write out all the hundreds of pages now. Plus, the fans have already speculated all the plot points. Maybe not all in one grand theory or 100% accurate, but there's such a robust fan community that all the likely outcomes have been guessed. How less exciting is it for an author to force themselves to sit down and write something fans already have guessed. So I speculate he's been spending the last decade trying to go at it a different way than the obvious way, but he keeps hitting walls. The problem is that at this stage of culture, the average 20 year old has been exposed to tens of thousands of stories by that point. And all the writers of modern stuff have also read/watched all the same stuff and has seen it folded back on itself and reprocessed and subverted infinitely. There's just nowhere to go that isn't a well-trod place at this point except to try to twist expectations ten levels deep. I find that only works one out of a hundred times, maybe. I don't have a solution. But I do think we're about to have a revival where it's just telling stories exactly as expected, which will be the new "twist".
They simply ignored all the literature related to the 2nd age and compressed 3000 years into a single storyline. They just have terrible writers. If this was directed by those that did Andor, Shogun or other great tv series it'd have been much better
From the chapter "“FROM A LETTER BY J.R.R. TOLKIEN TO MILTON WALDMAN, 1951” in the preface of "The Silmarillion Illustrated Edition": “In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant. He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, ‘neglected by the gods’, he becomes a re-incarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power - and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves).” As claimed Nerds, we need to study all of Tolkien literature, not just a part of it, to understand the motivation of the showrunners of Rings of Power. It is weird, that even after being religious himself when even Tolkien himself was way over the biblical ideas of absolute good vs absolute evil, a big part of his fandom chooses to reside in the part of the lore that was resultant after much transformation of the characters over time, and chooses to deny the sources of the transformation that came from the canon of the author himself. I fully agree on the weird recast of Adar, rumor is Benjen Stark of Game of Thrones (Joseph Mawle) demanded more money than the main characters, but I hope it is just rumor and not more than that. No offense intended. All the best!
i always think it is very difficult to define what text passages from Tolkiens Letters are canon and what was just a moments thought that he then changed afterwards... and he was constantly changing his world... for me Tolkien Canon is everything published in the trilogy, the hobbit, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Appendicies AND from the letters only those parts concerning topics NOT covered by the former, but in the end it is for everyone to decide for themselves what exactly the personal Canon is. As for the show, i think the showrunners think of their audience as some people without any contact to any works of Tolkienn and try - for me in a very stupid way - to tell what they think is a consistent "prequel" to the characters we all saw in the PJ trilogy and miss with almost every shot. No depiction of a Galadriel, that was one of the wisest elves from her very young age, that left Vaqlinor to claim a realm of her own to rule to feed her ambition, her most prominent character flaw according to Tolkien... a flaw she overcomes at the end with Frodo's trial and ends in her returning hummbled to Valinor. No Sauron, that was apprentice to Aule and then corrupted by Morgoth to become his captain and after that one was banished from Arda took over his mantle to, as you wrote yourself, bring order to the chaos of Middle-Earth My main problem with this show however is the complete lack of depiction of Time and Distances... the show Middle-Earth is sooo small with all teh sudden transitions... like Elrond and Durin walking from Eregion to Khazad-Dum in what appears to he a cozy afternoon stroll or Galadriel and Halbrand galloping from Mordor to Ost-In-Edhil in 5 days... or now in E1S2 when Sauron rebuilt his body, crawling out of a cave in Forodwaith in the far Northwest to only meet refugees appearently from the Southlands in the Southeast. To Joseph Mawle quitting the show, i do really hope that he had some backbone and didn't want any part in this show any more
Another unconfirmed rumor about Mawle's departure was that he was a Method actor, meaning that whenever he was on set the cast and crew had to work with *Adar*, not Mawle. Adar may be a surprisingly sympathetic villain, but he is still a creepy and twisted person by human standards, so one can see how this would have led to tension on set and a mutual agreement to part ways at the end of the season. (Mawle decided to leave soon enough that he did not take part in promoting Season 1.)
No offense taken:) I actually referenced this letter in a previous review. The 4th or 5th episode, I think. As I said then, I very much like the idea of exploring that part of Sauron's life. It's a great concept. My issue firmly lies in the show's execution of this concept, and not the idea itself. Thank you for putting the quote here in the comments for everyone to read!
The problem isn't them wanting to explore that era of Saurons life, the problem is in an attempt to make us feel bad for him, their backstory is Sauron feels bad Sauron steals a dudes emblem Sauron ends up on a boat Sauron has crush on galadriel Sauron gets rejected by his crush Sauron evil. This is cheap middle school writing that should have been better. It's not about the writers wanting to explore this, it's about how laughably bad they did it
@@eraserhead666 honestly, that storyline reminds me the only scene that I hate from the LoTR film trilogy - the one scene where lady Galadriel meets Frodo with the One Ring and falls back momentarily in Sauron's temptation wanting to be his queen, before bouncing back to self-control. That scene was cheap but durable because of short-span. But this was slow burn.
Because the left make everything about race and gender and tell themselves that they can’t appreciate and be inspired by other races or genders which is sad.
Read the first 10 chapters of BONESONG: Diary of a Sentient Sword for Free! www.amazon.com/kindle-vella/story/B0DC3J555G
While I understand why you’d want to think of this as its own story, separated from LOTR, I don’t think you should extend that concession to the show when reviewing it. Point of fact: Amazon did go to the effort of buying some of the IP and has marketed this as a LOTR story. They could have spent all that considerable sum on their own original IP, but didn’t.
In every instance, their inconsistency and incompetence with regard to Tolkien’s work should be highlighted. That is as much of the issue as the quality of the show per se.
Personally, I think it fails in both regards. It isn’t even a good show on its own merits.
She gets to review it however she wants. I appreciate her skill in separating it from Tolkien and THEN demonstrating why it is still poor story telling and bad writing. It makes the critique even stronger when she finally does compare to Tolkien.
It's really up to Tolkien's estate to protect his work and its representation in other media, if they're willing to sell the rights to a company that doesn't treat it with the respect it deserves that's on them imo.
I could forgive them playing fast and loose with the lore if they actually made a good show but unfortunately it's terrible.
Exactly! This is what everyone forgets! If they changed to names they could have made this exact show with no reference to Tolkien; it's different enough that no one could successfully sue them at this point. Buying the name while forsaking the content is a shameless bait and switch.
Of course there can be changes and adaptations-even Peter Jackson's films did that. But this is abandoning the source material almost completely. We should all recognize that this is unethical to the viewers lured to the show on false pretenses even if one doesn't care about an author's legacy!
100%
I find it hilarious that the first 20 or so minutes of this season reveals that Sauron spent almost the entire second age before the start of the show as a puddle. It's like the writers didn't even consider how Galadriel's fervent pursuit of Sauron looks with that context. The other elves already considered it a snipe hunt and now she seems like an Ahab without a whale in retrospect.
I think that was the idea.
sauron = discount aragorn all you need to know about this show.
It’s like someone took Van Gogh’s “Stary Night” and painted all the star different colors with crayons to make it more diverse and then putting it out there as an improved piece of art. All you’ve done is ruin someone else’s wonderful art. You aren’t being true to anything and you certainly aren’t making it better.
Ma’am, all due respect, but your expectations have fallen so low that next episode you’ll be saying “it’s all fine. Just fine.” 😂😂
Sauron in the flashback scene where he gets stabbed with the crown is basically Michael Sheen's pompous vampire performance from Twilight
thx, that was my very first thought, too... guess blonde wigs are a trend in RoP now ;o)
That's who he looked like! Michael Sheen! Thank you, that was bugging me.
@@aleksoctop yup, not only the acting, mannerisms, facial expressions and speech, but the actor himself and perhaps the way that wig fits clumsily on his head. The guy looks like Sheen. Which leads me to believe that that's what they were going for. Which further begs the question: why would they have the biggest and darkest villain in this show portrayed, if only for one scene, as the vampire lord who launched a thousand memes, with his outrageous performance in one of the dumbest works of fiction ever committed to film, Twilight?
The answer to this question is probably the same answer to the question why would they also portray him as Venom from Spider Man. Probably a rough patch in Sauron's life, before he'd read those self-help books.
Michael Sheen going crazy was at least hilarious, but whoever directed this actor made it awkward and uninteresting
People are trying to say it’s Sauron playing the long game getting killed to come back and be unknown because he was loosing his faithful.
I get the fact he’s a deceiver etc but it’s not for me.
You want the villain to instil fear and a sense of immense power over his followers.
So try to imagine Darth Vader pleading with a handful of storm troopers and his generals. Then a storm trooper attempts to shoot him within a blaster followed by grand moff tarkin killing him in some way. It’s just never going to happen.
I have so much else I dislike but the other major thing that stands out to me is the orc (the being created with the sole purpose of war) questioning wether they should go to war right before consoling his wife and child 😂
Exactly. Sauron having to convince the low infantry to join him is nonsense. Such depiction degrades this villain because, in the books, Sauron was involved in the creation and multiplication of the first Orcs when working as Lieutenant of Angband in the absence of his boss. Sauron knew the "genetic code" of the orcs. Besides that, Sauron was the greatest necromancer among the Dark Lord's folk, a sorcerer able to command from afar with spells like the famous _Ash Nazg durbatulûk_ ...
@@gabrielcruz6752 👍👍
not the figure of terror and fear, Master of Werewolves who can assume the shape of giant vampire bat, whose very glance can drive a fearful Orc to its knees... that Tolkien depicted. @@gabrielcruz6752
Sure he can still "appear" beautiful... so I do like the "majesty of Annatar the Maia" reveal, but Sauron should be a dread fear to his followers.
It’s way worse. They doubled down on every single issue with season 1. And it’s cheap and AI.
The take of Sauron's story is so flat that it's obvious that Halbrand is Sauron. The delivery is different on how we used to love series like GOT where there is a character building based on theories.
I'm increasingly convinced that the writers do not believe that Sauron was powerful in his own right and that he came into his power with the forging of the One. Which would be a valid choice in a different story but effectively neuters the big bad. The fact that he shows no signs of even working towards gaining power when we first meet him just makes matters worse.
Disappointed you didn't mention the way Galadriel became a ringbearer. I mean, they kind of had to do that as it was in no way believable that anyone would willingly give this character a ring of power, but good lord. ALSO, he not only touched the dagger in Numenor, he also TOUCHED THE FREAKING MITHRIL! The, according to this conception, sole magical part of the ring!
And all i see online is people gaslighting Tolkien fans telling them that is in fact very Tolkien in spirit, and Sauron being depicted very well in his deception.
I know insulting people is not ok, but it feels like being abused at this point
Ya I'm one of the victims when I pointed out why there are Black Elves 😢
Well put.
It's hate, the * you don't like it bcuz*insert minority * so that means you're an* insert buzzword* hence you must be a right wing and thus you're wrong in anything. It's basically programming and they're literally brainwashed. It's sad at this point, I feel like a prisoner in a world full of idiots and only the smart ppl are being treated like idiots.....
@@goodputin4324When you complain about PoCs being in the show, you create room for Amazon to dismiss legitimate criticism as racism. Please stop helping Amazon.
@@kryptonianguest1903 how is it racist?
Your diplomacy in the face of this utter trash fire is very entertaining 😁 Thanks again for subjecting yourself to this.
season 2 is even worse, there's no way in hell any of season 2 is better. The first episode is well paced but just wait until episode 2 and 3 which are some of the worst TV I've ever seen in my life.
Yeah the first episode was serviceable but 2 & 3 just fell right off that cliff again
@@dws0828 first it was the Irish Hobbits and not Gandalf running around the desert while not Saruman tries to catch them and then in episode three it was the insufferable Numenorean politics and the horrible new characters of Theo and not Legolas, oh and the adventures of CGI horse vs the CGI spiders. Hell, even the actor that played Bronwyn decided to quit this show, leaving her very awkward death off screen.
@@purefoldnz3070 nah, the Bronwyn Actress quit to have more time for her activism...
and whoever is provewatching this show for inconsitencies is either as blind as Miriel ( if only she was consistently blind and not only half the time ) or does a very poor job.
In the scene with not Legolas, the arrows arrive from at least 2 different directions and Arondir finnaly appearing in the opposite one out of a tree...
@@belegur8108 arrows going in different directions is the least of this show's problems.
@@purefoldnz3070 i agree, but such errors add up...
I don't think the plot about the three rings is gonna be about the purification of them, but the knowingly uncertain and risky relationship that the elves have with them. The rings are Sauron's scheme essentially, but he fails to utilize them to enslave the elves and therefore hurries to create the rest of the rings for other civilizations.
The shows already treating them like the one ring. The elves are jonesing for them. Only way it works now is if sauron forgot he made them. It's dumb
@@timbothejedi4146 I think it's a decision the showrunner made to make it more reasonable that the 3 are also bound to the One. Tolkien never quite reasons why they were subject to his will if he had nothing to do with them?
@@okultusrexus3660according to the books, the 3 greater rings and the other 16 became dangerous when Sauron "activated" the One Ring, the last to be created, by chanting the spell _Ash Nazg durbatulûk_ ... According to Tolkien's chronology, the 3 rings were harmless for many years before the One was forged, as a bait that calms and distracts the prey. In my own interpretation, the One and the rest of the rings formed a network of invisible spiritual threads embedded in the fabric of the world. Sauron designed the network in such a way that the network became a trap in which the One worked as a "central node". Celebrimbor forged the 3 greater rings and "plugged" them into the spiritual network, without knowing that he was walking into the trap in waiting. The 3 greater rings were then bound to the One but were unsullied. Sauron was unable to insert a "corrupting curse" inside the 3, a curse that he was able to insert in all of the other 9 and 7.
At least Cirdan has a beard. That would have been unforgivable.
I believe the actor who played Adar in the first season noped out because he realize what a trainwreck the series is.
Considering the show runners said that this season Sauron was getting the "breaking bad" treatment. It's more likely that the waterfall jump scene is a reference to The Fugitive with Harrison Ford, than it is a reference to anything in the Silmarillion.
They don't have the rights to the book for which they are making a TV Show... I still can't come to terms with this. lol
Using this information as a lens. I started understanding why they are making weird story decisions. Why Poppy was discovered following Nori and the stranger? Because they wanted to emulate the LOTR scene when Sam was caught by Gandalf. They've done this in Season 1, and clearly it's not going to stop in Season 2. Doomed to fail from the inception.
> Trying Rings of Power Season 2 Episode 1
ohdeargods you poor thing WHY?
Your review is great. Happy of having found this channel. Don't fall for the other commenters that want you to act like a hater.
"Act like a hater" 😂. You can hear in her voice she is struggling to find a single positive point about it. The show is objectively poor storytelling
@@joshb7326 No I think she's being very fair and objective which is difficult for partisan types to accept or even understand. It's not all zero sum my friend.
@@okultusrexus3660 I agree I think she's fair, I didn't say otherwise, but you can tell it is poor story telling when even a fair review is struggling to say strong positives
@@joshb7326 Yeah some of the fair criticism is how it's a bit shoddy production wise at times. Compared to GOT you didn't have some of these issues, until the end episodes maybe. But the production was outstanding overall.
@@okultusrexus3660 I'm talking about production in general tho, I'm talking about the story, character development, directing etc. That's what's important to me in making a good story
First of all, I accept that this is your channel & you must act as you see fit. However, and this is only my opinion, there are no excuses: if this is supposed to be based on Tolkien's works, it is shoddy, poorly written, plot hole ridden drivel, attempting to ride on & cash in on his coat tails; on the other hand, if it is supposed to be a stand alone fantasy story, it is still shoddy, poorly written, plot hole ridden drivel!
I think that is a valid opinion and I more or less agree with you. It does not work as a Tolkien adaptation or its own story. I speak less harshly not because I disagree, but because I find it more constructive (and better for my sanity) to appreciate elements I like and approach it with a stubborn aura of positivity.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage Fair enough.
Instead of letting others program me, I chose to write my own mental software. I will disregard ALL fiction.
Elrond acts as if it’s life or death as he hurry’s to deliver the rings after being chased. Then arrives and decides to jump off the cliff to evade the delivery of the rings. Wow, great storytelling. I agree, when you watch the inventive storytelling about the east etc. where not much material was written the show seems serviceable. However, even if you watch it for entertainment value the story seems awkward, convenient, and unnecessary at times. Thanks for your review
Honestly, I like that you are detaching it from tolkien and trying to be fair but you can just say that its clearly absolutely terrible haha.
The Sauron stuff wasn't unwatchable but the whole point of flashbacks is to either give new information or change the context of existing information about the character. The flashback doesn't do this. The only thing we learned was how he got the southland insignia and on the raft. That was not worth the time we spent watching it.
Not-Gandalf and Nori is awful. The walking song as directions to get into Rhun? Really? It was just boring and a pathetic imitation of frodo and sam walking to Mordor which they even repurpose direct lines from the films for.
The Elves. Wow lol... Firstly the Gil-Galad actor is Horrendous. The scene where Galadriel does the Sauron reveal honestly came across as people standing up reading their lines to each other. You're spot on about the chase missing the pre-lude as well, I didn't think of that. Elrond jumping off a cliff and not only surviving but being completely unharmed is laughable. Its also laughable that Galadriel is given a ring based on her actions in the show.
I miss the times when one could be fascinated and deeply enjoy a show, as opposed to talking oneself into enduring to watch an embarrassing attempt of one.
I enjoy that you're spending at least part of your existence in a shadow of a shadow of a fantastic triviality.
All the Rings of Power are corrupted, its not that Sauron made them, they were made by following the ring crafting LORE provided by Sauron, so they are all the same "corruption".
That's right. With the One Ring, Sauron has the power to control the Three Rings because they were made with the knowledge he gave to Celebrimbor and the other smiths (which is also true in RoP, although it happens over a much shorter period of time than in Tolkien). For the same reason, the Three lose their powers permanently once the One is destroyed at the end of LotR; when the bearers of the Three carry them into the West, they are no longer Rings of Power, but merely cultural artifacts of inestimable artistic and historic value, which will presumably be preserved in the Undying Lands until the end of the world. The Seven and the Nine corrupt their wearers directly, without Sauron using the One, because Sauron personally took part in their making.
The Three aren't corrupted. They are under the domination of the One, yes, but not corrupted like the Seven and Nine are. Those will ever have a dark influence on their bearers. Not so the Three.
@@Angrenost02 That's completely right, unlike what I said. Thanks for the correction, Angrenost02.
@@anthonybernacchi2732 Always ready to put on the nerd glasses
They may of achieved getting a rugged viggo mortensen Aragorn looking character with halbrand but boy does charlie vickers not look good in that blond wig with his rugged good looks he does not look elven whatsoever and wasn't annatar supposed to have the the perfect elven looks
these writers are not capable of good decisions... never mind how they are screwing with the Tolkien stories... they just cannot write...
I also try to be kinder and have empathy.
But from my perspective its not good, its mediocre. Not terrible, not great. But compared to Lotr trilogy, the books, even the Hobbit, it underdelivers.
Elrond survives jumping off a cliff? I wonder if anyone else survives jumping off a cliff unscathed later in the season. XD
Should be about effective as throwing superman in prison.
Sauron did not touch the dagger. He blocked Galadriel's arm. He had no reason to touch the dagger as he did not know elves would use it to create the three rings.
In the unfinished tales, Tolkien does speak of the ring having unexpected effect on Galadriel, so basically all the main elves gained the skill of foresight and maybe other things too.
He touched it in Numenor. He also touched the mithril.
Sauron's future prison experience may happen in a later season of RoP, in which case it will seem less repetitive due to the time that will have passed between seasons for the audience (although the Númenor storyline will probably still be awkward no matter how it's handled).
I didn't think of the possibility of Poppy being a ringer. That would be really cool, and the writers could have been inspired to do it by the fact that many viewers (me included!) suspected Poppy of being Sauron during Season 1. After all, she was the classic "least likely suspect", she was present when the fireflies died, and her entire family was conveniently killed in an accident... I suspect, however, that the writers simply didn't think of having Poppy in Season 2 until they saw the chemistry between her and Nori in Season 1.
The entire structure of the opening of the Stranger and Nori's storyline for this season is almost identical to that of Frodo and Sam's story in "The Two Towers". In both cases, two characters break away from the other storylines to travel east, end up lost and walking in circles, realize someone is following them and set a trap for that person, only to have the other person join them on their journey and help them find their way. Homage, influence or rip-off? (For that matter, is this another hint that this version of Poppy shouldn't be trusted? No, that would probably be too sophisticated.)
I'm sorry to say that the chase scene with Galadriel and Elrond reminded me of an old Peanuts comic strip in which Lucy was chasing Linus because he had something she wanted (I forget what) and kept shouting after him, "Gimme it! Gimme it!"
I also was disappointed by the props for the Three Rings when they first appeared in S1E8. This is one instance where I regret the fact that RoP isn't a direct spinoff of the Jackson movies, in which the Three were more impressive. I know Jackson still has the original props for Narya, Nenya and Vilya in a warehouse somewhere (I saw them at a touring exhibition years ago), and it would have been much better if RoP could simply have borrowed them.
I presume that Nenya landing at Galadriel's feet was intended to imply that Nenya "chose" her, rather like how Green Lantern rings "choose" their wearers.
Somehow it hadn't occurred to me that they cast a new actor for Adar. I was just thinking that their makeup/prosthetic department got a lot worse.
can't wair for episode 3 reaction lol
The hobbits were always kind of detached with what was going on in middle earth, they didn't seem aware of any wars, just loving life in the country. But I suppose the series reveals why 'Gandalf' is close with the hobbits.
I just felt confused watching this. I often wondered what was happening, and I felt bored in the end. I doubt I'll finish the series on Amazon, but I'll definitely watch the rest through your reviews!
Adar recast was because Jason Mawle wanted to move on to other things. As for odd/jarring cuts, there's an insert shot near the end of ep 3 that that really pulled me out. I watched it several times in attempt to understand why they edited it the way they did, it just felt overly long for what it needed to do.
Saying Sauron should be in chains in a later episode tells me you are thinking about how actions in this episode don't fit in with the lore and may diminish later episodes if Sauron gets imprisoned in Númenor.
Not only do the show runners / writers of this show seem to look at lore as just suggestions, they don't think through how their changes can cause problems as their story progresses. It's a textbook example of bad fanfiction.
I can live with the fan fiction plot, It's the human characters and the villains other than Adar that are repulsing me from this show, specifically the Gandalf hunters. They are so tacky it's unreal. The Numenoreans come off as a lobotomized cult at this point, Farazon isn't even trying one tiny oz to hide the look on his face and everyone is just derp cheering the entire time in Numenor, it's like watching a South Park episode.
All the characters in the show have to be extremely stupid for anything to have progressed like this and it really shows, it's like everyone but the kings and Sauron are dim wits. Elrond is almost breaking the 4th wall at this point because of how coherent he is, they have to soft banish his character it looks like.
I think they’re showing well how Elrond is a pessimist like in the movies “the ring cannot stay here” or “he has chosen exile” or “The race of men is failing the blood of Númenor is all but spent, its pride and dignity forgotten. It is because of men the ring survives” or "Here you will dwell, bound to you grief, under the fading trees, until all the world has changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent".. geeez man 😂
The theological content is being replaced with Neo paganism
Can’t wait to see your thoughts on episode two!
Adar's character seems so pointless. Like its trying to steal Sauron's spotlight.
The horse chase sequence was bad. It was supposed to produce tension between the characters while providing cool visuals, but as you said, they narratively missed the actual tentative scene before it, plus given that Galadriel wasn't going to go to extreme lengths to get them, like hurting Elrond, it ended up being totally silly and redundant and instantly reminded me teenagers chasing each other around the living room table, cause one of them was about to tell on the other to daddy and it made me cringe.
Oh they replaced Adar because the actor just wanted to do other stuff. So tragic. I literally paused the show to go Google what happened. GG.
Its such a boring anti Tolkien show
Also, a minor thing - from "Of the rings of power and the third age" - "Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.” Here, the last phrase "yet they also were subject to the One" is also important. So yes, the rings were still pure till the time, but eventually Elrond's fear came into reality - those were also subjected to the One ring's slavery when that was (will be in this timeline) made. But anyway, very good pointing out this, otherwise, both the point of them being pure and Galadriel being right after the first season's trust on Sauron before knowing him (though according to lore among elves only Gil Galad and Elrond distrusted his form that time so I was never so shocked like others do here) and also Elrond's foresight remains undiscussed.
So I've read most of Tolkien but bringing this into more focus, how does Tolkien rationalize the 3 also being subject to the One?
@@okultusrexus3660 not sure how Tolkien himself rationalized it, perhaps because of his pursuance or influencing for the rings to be made in the first place which occurred in this show as well. In case of the show, however, another non-canon way it might have been hinted - I never understood at first why the scene where Galadriel confronts Sauron in Season one finale was so built up and highlighted, but in this scene Sauron touches Galadriel's short sword with pure Gold from Valinor - not sure if they tried to highlight it to cover up this incongruence in original Tolkien literature (like many other contradictions that had been originally between editions and letters and notes). But whatever they did, they should have pointed that out in post-show explanatory videos. Massive shows built on very little prequel literature of Second age like this one needs a lot of histories and lores content additional to the episodes, GoT for example released Histories and Lores episodes additional to each season in DVD releases. I don't know if Amazon will do. The fanbase do have some valid reasons to get mad in absence of such explanations.
@@MonirZamanMon In my own interpretation, the One and the other 19 rings formed a network of invisible spiritual threads embedded in the fabric of the world. Sauron designed the network in such a way that the network became a trap in which the One worked as a "central node". Celebrimbor forged the 3 greater rings in the absence of Sauron, but the elf "plugged" the rings into the spiritual network, without knowing that he was walking into the trap in waiting. The 3 greater rings were then bound to the One but were unsullied, because Sauron was unable to insert a "corrupting curse" inside the 3, a curse that he was able to insert in all of the other 9 and 7. According to the books, the 3 greater rings and the other 16 became dangerous when Sauron "activated" the One Ring, the last to be created, by chanting the spell _Ash Nazg durbatulûk_ ... According to Tolkien's chronology, the 3 rings were harmless, didn't transmit Sauron's will, during ten years before the One was forged, as a bait that calms and distracts the prey.
As a fellow nerd I’m looking forward to this 😂
Sauron is nothing but indimidating throughout all the writings, i do not feel he is a dominant force in Arda, the only thing that looks cool is the Orcs in make up again. They look Grim and i love that
It helped me to think of the series as an universe branch called midden earth for a while, but nowadays even this fails me :D.
They are beginning to realise that the entire saga of the Ring is not suited for television but it's way to late to back out of it. The stakes are to high
Compressing the timeline was their biggest mistake.
It surely is but Amazon is totally uncapable of doing it
luvd your comments on rings of power ! subscribed ! !
I am so sorry to hear about your recent loss of brain cells and time . I hope you can get through this painful loss and move on .
I can't take anyone seriously who say S2 is much worse than S1, those are the people who are politically invested in seeing it fail. I.E "culture war" losers.
The worst you could say about it is that it stayed the same, but personally I think it was a significant improvement.
Far from great, but also far from trash.
Not far from trash though. They simply ignored what Tolkien wrote. The appendices had more than enough details to write a better tv series.
I myself could have provided a better story across those 5 seasons than what these writers were capable of
I think S2 does slightly less bad in terms of television, but is far far worse in terms of being anything resembling Tolkien. I actually tried to get through episode 2 but couldn't. They didn't just break the story and completely destroy the best aspects of every character, but also managed to paint themselves into future corners that they won't be able to get out of without some "it was only a dream" or "Middle Earth multi-verse" or some sort of daytime soap ridiculous "twist" crap.
Season 2 is managing to be even more nonsensical and poorly written tha season 1 xD
Tolkien has the high ground. Don’t try it!
A friend of mine pointed out that all elven craft has a strong effect on elves. Feanor’s perfect works aren’t cursed, yet the elves go wild over them. I am excited to see how the faulty nature of the elves is enlarged/enhanced through the power of the three.
Celebrimbor’s line in the next episode kinda confirms this idea, to me.
Thank you! :)
Guess they couldn't afford Fastbender for Sauron. Wait until you get to E2 and the Palestinian Orcs.
Could care less for the major characters and even less for all the characters that contribute nothing to the crap story.
7:44 I mean he jumps into water xd
Dont worry it gets much worse with Ep2 & 3 the writing of this show is very poor in many cases worse than S1, I dont know much about the lore of Tolkien but the story just does not flow or even make sense at times. I looked up the actual story and they should have kept to the same story, although i did hear it was Tolkien's estate that wanted the change. You are 100% right Sauron is anything but a powerful lord and was asking to get killed by the Orcs during the coronation. Galadriel still seems pretty bad as well it does not look like they have taken the time to re-set the character.
I often have the feeling with this show that the writers are trying to keep the Tolkien Estate happy by demonstrating that they are drawing primarily on the material to which Amazon bought the rights and not following the posthumously published material (although they have taken various names and concepts from the posthumous books, presumably with the Estate's specific permission in each case). The infamous mithril backstory from Season 1 gave me this impression especially strongly: the Appendices say only that the other two Silmarils were lost at the end of the First Age without specifying what happened to them, so the whole absurdity of one of them ending up in a tree on top of the Misty Mountains seems like the writers reassuring the Estate that they understand they don't have the Silmarillion rights.
ScriptMage i think if there is a spectrum of what you think about the show, from 'its not awful' to 'absolute sci-fi blasphemy and the worst thing to happen to creativity' we probably sit somewhere very similar :)
I enjoyed rings of power, it still brought me into that world. I liked the story they have weaved to create the actually events leading to the creation of the rings and the dynamics between the races. Plus Amazon have worked well with the Tolkien estate and did their homework, orcs did mock their own leaders, yes Sauron did try to reach for Galadriel's mind, and Galadriel was described as a man maiden in books because of her athleticism. What frightens me more is the public's negative reception of something I actually enjoyed watching with my Dad, I felt for all these characters, and I think it's a good show.
I loved the intro of this episode however it definitely went downhill with the next 2
The movie takes itself too serious and unironic with too many characters. I loved the shows like Xena Warrior Princess, which was far lighter.
Thanks for watching season 2 so i dont have to
I don't agree with many of the criticism of how Sauron is depicted. Tolkien wrote Sauron as an entity that looses the human form and passes centuries in a "shapeless" dorm and then comes back. And its a shapeshifter and a manipulator. The show is depicting that. Sauron is not supposed to be some kind of military leader, general, he's the personification of temptation for humanity. And when Morgoth is defeated, Sauron is literally middle management that wants to take the place of the boss but is an incompetent boss. I think is fine.
Sauron's speech to the Orcs is pretty much pure Tolkien in content. Definitely not in the delivery or anything else in the scene. Because Morgoth and Sauron both believed that Orcs would never be accepted by the other races, so they need to conquer and take over Middle-Earth to survive.
The non Tolkien part of this scene is that Sauron would never try to convince the Orcs of anything because he wouldn't need to. Morgoth made them to be the perfect race for his purposes. Homicidally aggressive and completely subservient to him through fear. Sauron was his most powerful servant and could control the Orcs in the same way. No one would crown him, because he'd simply crown himself and make brutal examples of anyone who disagreed with him.
This. Him not only having to convince the orcs, but *failing* to do so really weakens Sauron’s power.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage it's almost like the writers don't know how to write evil characters who can never be redeemed, only stopped. Bring back plots that end in Princess Bride's "I want my father back you son of a bitch." We aren't supposed to be rooting for Sauron, or even feeling sympathy for him at all. Yet these people want us to see him as an almost tragic figure.
I'm thankful you aren't in the kneejerk "If it's not 100% faithful, it's an abomination" camp. They way *I* look at it is that it's like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, but for Tolkien. We're jamming a bunch of characters and events together that were in no proximity (either geographically or chronologically) to each other and forging a new story that looks a lot like a typical Lord of the Rings story (if LotR was the template for ALL Middle-earth stories.). It's doing it's own thing. It's doing it in the same way that any modern TV show handles plots. Too much reliance on the Mystery Box and subverting the expectations of readers who know the whole story already. What we've lost (and I find this in all TV, not just this show) is that we've lost the ability and desire to just tell a story in as effective a way as possible, without trying to constantly fool or surprise the viewers. Just show us the thing we came here to see!
I think writers second-guess themselves by becoming bored with their own stories in the process of actually writing them all out. They panic, and then think they need to hide the path better, ,or completely subvert the expectation of the reader. Look at Game of Thrones season 8. All they had to do was tell the story they'd set up for seven seasons. Just deliver that story. But nope. Just endlessly dumb decisions made to foil expectations just for the sake of not arriving at the conclusion fans had figured out years in advance. Just MAKE Jon Snow the true heir of the Targaryens. How hard is that? How cool is that? How satisfying is that? Let Jaime kill Cersei. Or better yet, let Arya, wearing a Jaime face, kill Cersei. The Hound vs the Mountain was the only result that everyone saw coming, but still delighted us.
But back to this show. If it just wanted to tell a straightforward, Tolkien-flavored TV series with epic moments, they can still pull it off... they just need to ditch the Mystery Box...
That is very well put. I've never thought to connect the over reliance on subversion to writers getting bored with their own stories. An interesting theory. I'll have to stew on that.
@@AlaniTheScriptMage I think it's 90% of why it's taken George RR Martin (and Patrick Rothfuss) more than a decade each to write their next books. They're bored with their own stories, having thought of all the fun, cool stuff (the big plot points) years or DECADES ago. It has to be just a slog to actually write out all the hundreds of pages now. Plus, the fans have already speculated all the plot points. Maybe not all in one grand theory or 100% accurate, but there's such a robust fan community that all the likely outcomes have been guessed. How less exciting is it for an author to force themselves to sit down and write something fans already have guessed. So I speculate he's been spending the last decade trying to go at it a different way than the obvious way, but he keeps hitting walls.
The problem is that at this stage of culture, the average 20 year old has been exposed to tens of thousands of stories by that point. And all the writers of modern stuff have also read/watched all the same stuff and has seen it folded back on itself and reprocessed and subverted infinitely. There's just nowhere to go that isn't a well-trod place at this point except to try to twist expectations ten levels deep. I find that only works one out of a hundred times, maybe.
I don't have a solution. But I do think we're about to have a revival where it's just telling stories exactly as expected, which will be the new "twist".
They simply ignored all the literature related to the 2nd age and compressed 3000 years into a single storyline. They just have terrible writers. If this was directed by those that did Andor, Shogun or other great tv series it'd have been much better
All hail Adar ! All hail Alani 🧌
From the chapter "“FROM A LETTER BY J.R.R. TOLKIEN TO MILTON WALDMAN, 1951” in the preface of "The Silmarillion Illustrated Edition": “In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant. He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, ‘neglected by the gods’, he becomes a re-incarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power - and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves).”
As claimed Nerds, we need to study all of Tolkien literature, not just a part of it, to understand the motivation of the showrunners of Rings of Power. It is weird, that even after being religious himself when even Tolkien himself was way over the biblical ideas of absolute good vs absolute evil, a big part of his fandom chooses to reside in the part of the lore that was resultant after much transformation of the characters over time, and chooses to deny the sources of the transformation that came from the canon of the author himself. I fully agree on the weird recast of Adar, rumor is Benjen Stark of Game of Thrones (Joseph Mawle) demanded more money than the main characters, but I hope it is just rumor and not more than that.
No offense intended. All the best!
i always think it is very difficult to define what text passages from Tolkiens Letters are canon and what was just a moments thought that he then changed afterwards... and he was constantly changing his world...
for me Tolkien Canon is everything published in the trilogy, the hobbit, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and Appendicies AND from the letters only those parts concerning topics NOT covered by the former, but in the end it is for everyone to decide for themselves what exactly the personal Canon is.
As for the show, i think the showrunners think of their audience as some people without any contact to any works of Tolkienn and try - for me in a very stupid way - to tell what they think is a consistent "prequel" to the characters we all saw in the PJ trilogy and miss with almost every shot.
No depiction of a Galadriel, that was one of the wisest elves from her very young age, that left Vaqlinor to claim a realm of her own to rule to feed her ambition, her most prominent character flaw according to Tolkien... a flaw she overcomes at the end with Frodo's trial and ends in her returning hummbled to Valinor.
No Sauron, that was apprentice to Aule and then corrupted by Morgoth to become his captain and after that one was banished from Arda took over his mantle to, as you wrote yourself, bring order to the chaos of Middle-Earth
My main problem with this show however is the complete lack of depiction of Time and Distances... the show Middle-Earth is sooo small with all teh sudden transitions... like Elrond and Durin walking from Eregion to Khazad-Dum in what appears to he a cozy afternoon stroll or Galadriel and Halbrand galloping from Mordor to Ost-In-Edhil in 5 days...
or now in E1S2 when Sauron rebuilt his body, crawling out of a cave in Forodwaith in the far Northwest to only meet refugees appearently from the Southlands in the Southeast.
To Joseph Mawle quitting the show, i do really hope that he had some backbone and didn't want any part in this show any more
Another unconfirmed rumor about Mawle's departure was that he was a Method actor, meaning that whenever he was on set the cast and crew had to work with *Adar*, not Mawle. Adar may be a surprisingly sympathetic villain, but he is still a creepy and twisted person by human standards, so one can see how this would have led to tension on set and a mutual agreement to part ways at the end of the season. (Mawle decided to leave soon enough that he did not take part in promoting Season 1.)
No offense taken:) I actually referenced this letter in a previous review. The 4th or 5th episode, I think. As I said then, I very much like the idea of exploring that part of Sauron's life. It's a great concept. My issue firmly lies in the show's execution of this concept, and not the idea itself.
Thank you for putting the quote here in the comments for everyone to read!
The problem isn't them wanting to explore that era of Saurons life, the problem is in an attempt to make us feel bad for him, their backstory is
Sauron feels bad
Sauron steals a dudes emblem
Sauron ends up on a boat
Sauron has crush on galadriel
Sauron gets rejected by his crush
Sauron evil.
This is cheap middle school writing that should have been better.
It's not about the writers wanting to explore this, it's about how laughably bad they did it
@@eraserhead666 honestly, that storyline reminds me the only scene that I hate from the LoTR film trilogy - the one scene where lady Galadriel meets Frodo with the One Ring and falls back momentarily in Sauron's temptation wanting to be his queen, before bouncing back to self-control. That scene was cheap but durable because of short-span. But this was slow burn.
The show is bad and they should feel bad
yo! good shit sista!!!
👍
This show is 100% crap
Why are there black Elves!!!
Because the left make everything about race and gender and tell themselves that they can’t appreciate and be inspired by other races or genders which is sad.
lol why cant there be
@@hlashflahflhsjfh weren’t elves created before the sun? So why would there be one with copious amounts of melanin in their skin?
@@hlashflahflhsjfh No such things in Tolkien's lore.
@@MrSimonson don't mind him. That's not a Tolkien fan.