Is it the END FOR C++ and C?
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- Security and safety are becoming a growing issue and more and more big players are pointing the finger at C and C++.
... Is the end coming for this languages?
Referenced article:
www.infoworld.com/article/371...
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There is so much C/C++ code out there to maintain, it will never go away.
You act like this is a industry thats been around for hundreds of years lmao. You are very closed minded to think "never"
@@davidomar742what have you said? .... Dude, how old are you?? Everything is made mostly in C, C++ from cell-phones software, to Operative Systems, storage systems, routing, messaging, embedded, Artificial intelligence, expert systems, surveillance, security, logging, even other languages, graphic applications, video edition, video games, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.... you have no idea what you are talking about.
@@jose280714 Youth doesn't make him wrong. Eventually, all that legacy-ware will rotate out and be replaced with newer code. It's the nature of the industry.
C is the new Fortran
@@jose280714 sounds to me like he is your average Gen Z fellow who grew up writing javascript code not even realizing that C/C++ is also at the core of just about any language out there
No worries, we program C in safe mode.
TLDR: no
Xd😂
In the fields that C++ is dominant (real-time/embedded, systems programming, high performance computing etc) the only competitor is Rust and - at the moment at least - it is not even close to replacing it. So the brief answer is an emphatic, NO!
Rust is not even close to competing with C++ in gamedev. Indeed Python would be more of a competitor, and no one takes Python seriously as a gamedev language.
C and C++ are not dying, good programmers are the ones who are dying
Because of age?
@@opusdei1151 because of IQ
Sad, true, and a little funny
C and C++ written properly is very very performant and secure. A lot of the high-performance libraries Python uses for example are written in them.
*"witten properly"*
And that's the problem. Years of experience, particularly with C++ has shown that if you give developers a gun, some *will* shoot themselves.
considering that Python depends almost entirely on C/C++ libraries, there are at least 50 years before we see an actual deprecation.
@@franciscogerardohernandezr4788 Exactly,, think of all of those high performance vector mathematics libraries that are used for AI and graphics, they're not written in Python
The entire blockchain architecture is written in C++ afaik. So yeah...
not only that, but python itself is written in C
It seems tho these old programming languages just keep getting bigger (PHP, Java, C, C++). It's because of all the libraries, existing code etc When you actually have to get stuff done you use a common language.
A common language like C? That's what nearly all languages use at their core and is definitely what is running your OS.
Your common languages are written in C and C++. Someone out there needs to write the vital code you depend on.
Unlikely. This is just more of the ‘pointers are evil’ kooks who have been around since the 90s at least.
Since the 70s!
I learned late enough to have focused Rust instead. But realised what I had always wanted was the freedom, to be able open code and read it like documentation, to master a tool that I could apply to any platform. There is just so much C/C++ in the wild, it is still king of embedded, high frequency trading, gpu compute, and I don't see it changing as fast as people think.
C++ is in a good place while everyone is pretending it's harder to use modern language features than to migrate to a whole new language.
Currently learning C and C++ in school. Whether or not it declines in industry it is still a great language to learn, it is low level and you will get a deep understanding being that connected to the hardware. Just my opinion
give a couple years... youll hate it
@@germanhoyos4422and then give a couple more, and you'll love it again.
@@germanhoyos4422Been programming for over 20 years. Still love it as much as the first time. But yeah, I do understand where you are coming from.
@@germanhoyos4422 LOLZ hope you won't go and create operating system in html/css/js and in rust using crap browser SHIT AND CALL IT OPERATING SYSTEM LOLZ
btw rust also has problems and seg faults and if you don't beleive >>> cve-rs
The DoD wanted everyone to use Ada. Look how well that turned out.
Somebody is trying to push Rust down our throats.
It just write the best software with the worst user experience
Is not a programming language problem. Is more of a developer issue not knowing enough about c/c++.
Even if true, it's not valid as an argument. If being a competent programmer means you need to learn rust, you cannot really avoid moving into a path where you have to improve. There are no shortcuts into doing rust in a proper way.
@@larswadefalk6423 yeah, his argument was like "Assembler/COW/Brain*uck language aren't the problematic at all. It's a skill issue". But in terms of system programming - it's probably is. It wasn't long ago when program killed 5 people and coding today is not yet perceived as a heart surgery - that's the problem. The culture, the hype over IT for the last 40-50 years. Industry develops faster that it can do without issues of any sorts. Anyway COBOL is not secure language, but it doesn't kill US financial system working on top of it..
Exactly you can also write unsafe rust code.
@@MelroyvandenBerg That wasn't fair. You have to make an effort to use the unsafe stuff in rust. And almost always the only reason to do so is to call into C code or call system libraries. No rust developer with a sane mind starts using rust just to be able to use it as a C compiler.
I have for many years (25+) loved both C and C++ and used both of them for my work in many projects. Since two years back I had the opportunity to learn rust in my current assignment. And I do see the light. It's not only the security, it's the structure that forbids bad antipatterns and poor design, it's a higher degree of confidence that what you write, once it compiles it does what you intended. Nothing more, nothing less. I am still a newcomer and still learning it, and it IS hard, but if I today had the option in a project to choose between c++ and rust, hardware near or not, I would go for rust all days of the week.
yea it`s just the lack of education and ability to comprehend convoluted systems for the new programmers , although i do not understand something this is a system programming PROBLEM and the people working in this level have a full understanding on how operating systems works they understand microarchitecture they know to read assembly and program in assembly arm or x86-64 or risc so they should know what they are doing , the problem is when you try to pay somebody less money to work at this level thinking your going to get it done cheaper , i can write unsafe code in assembler and hook it to python libs and i will knock your server down 100% , let`s ban assembly problem solved
What will be of me without c++. I am addicted for it! 😅
keep coding in it . rust is crap in and out like haskell is shitty syntax rust will never overtake not even cobol or fortran is dead and those are even used today as for rust is for bunch of web devs who are lazy and who's brain don't work properly and who are gays LOLZ under one umbrella AHAHA :D
Where is the vulnerability in the application code or the operating system code? Perhaps we need to place the emphasis on operating system developers.
Just a guy to get some followers. The programming is not only javascript and web apps, but also embedded industry which is quite huge. If its the end of c/c++, will be also the end of smartphones, electronics and so on.
I suspect the threat is larger for C++ than C. How many of those memory safety works if you're programing directly on metal?
Maybe it'll mitigate some layoff pressures as conversions begin... especially if they get the media to run with the scare... y2k style.
This doesnt make sens at all, most languages compilers or runtimes are written in c/c++. And if there would be an memory safty issue, why dont update the compiler to get rid of safty issue.
c/c++ arent unsafe, developers are unskilled, you should work with professional c/c++ PROGRAMMERS and pay them well. there is nothing better than c/c++ in any way, if you understand computer.
uncle stef, what say you about devin ai?
devin is like a calculator for mathematicians it'll give us stuffbut nothing else and no programmers will be repalced men so don't worry and continue coding . like calculator never replaced mathematicians so will do devin .
Linux is built on C. So, are they trying to do away with an application or OS built by C? The Linux kernel is in C....this does not make any sense. Most servers are running Linux with kernel written in C code. Please let me know what your thoughts are about this please sir?
Someone is trying to push an agenda. I think those writing the c code are inexperienced.
Every car has an ECU (Embedded Computer), and guess what computer language is used there? 😏 Most of the critical safety stuff is built in C/C++. Medical devices, power plants, space-flicking rockets, and more… Somehow they managed to do so with very unsafe C/C++. Maybe language is not a problem here ?
You know that the kernel is moving to rust? Some part will of course remain in C. But gladly enough there is no C++ in there.
I'm fact I feel that C++ is even more insecure than C, because the stuff you still can do with pointers will be more or less hidden under all classes, references, templates and inheritance patterns.
Carpenters urged to stop using hammers as screwdrivers are far safer.
With shadow stack and cet now in Linux 6.6, hopefully more project will use it, it eliminates lots of security issues with c/c++
Hi Uncle Stef. What is your opinion about Cognition Labs Devin? This is it? Is this the end for us Software Developers? 😰
No, they are just pumping their stocks and trying to attract venture capital. Don‘t fall for the hype. Use AI to learn and be more productive but don‘t fall for the fear mongering incentivized to pump stocks.
My only response is learn to code. C++ and C are fine as long as you know how to use it. I say white house fix our debt. If you care about security so much then get the heck off windows and move to Mac or Linux until then, I am not going to take that seriously.
I can see most operating systems doing what MS is doing, rewriting critical parts in Rust, but the whole OS market is a tiny speck compared to all the commercial software weitten in C/C++. No one is going to go and rewrite whole application in another language just because. They'll patch things up.
Exactly… This is a reason why sometimes there is no refactoring for terrible legacy code because it brings no value for the custom.
In my opinion, operating systems are not that great candidates for being rewritten in rust, since the complications of kernel code are not easy to represent in rust. For example, interrupt-handlers and atomic contexts. "Safety", in an atomic context, means never sleeping. How would you represent that in rust? How how do you write async-safe code (as in or signal handlers)? It's more difficult in rust imo, because it has more layers of abstraction that don't allow you direct control of memory. Rust's guarantees on memory safety makes a lot of assumptions that are absolutely not valid outside of a user-space context. I think that C is actually easier to prove 100% safe in the context of a pacemaker or automobile than rust.
PS: I personally really enjoy writing rust and think it has a lot more benfits than just memory safety, it's actually one of the smaller benefits imo (python is " memory safe"... But does it mean it has no memory problems? How does it handle a bad allocation? It probably crashes, just like rust by default).
Is it possible to rework C and C++ to make it safer?
I wonder why we can't just patch c++??
Their form of patching is by adding new features to the language to stay in the game with the younger languages that attract the newer generation of programmers. Its too big of a language that needs a complete rewrite, which is what the experimental programming language "Carbon" is suppose to be. You just can't patch it.
Backwards compatibility is the reason.
They do. "Modern" C++ has good features that diminish weaknesses and there are even de facto build systems and dependency managers. Most of the problems you will see people talk about are already solved.
Probably the only problem left is the lack of platform specific libraries/ integration. You want to write software for Android devices? You can do it in C++, but there is much more support with Kotlin/ Java. Same thing with Apple devices, browsers, etc. It's just how they historically developed over time.
In Nov 2022 the NSA also said this and no one listened and for good reason. C++ nor C are unsafe. C++ has a safe memory model if you choose to use it. C is the foundation of nearly all other languages. If you are coding in Java, you are running C code. When was the last time you thought..., I should take coding advice from the Whitehouse about memory management. This is some Grade A clickbait crap by a tuber.
Axiom 1 : C & C++ will never be gone
C and C++ were never languages for the masses. They are languages for engineers who know how computers work, not for your average "coder" with a barely functional understanding of CS. Yes, those people, who are the majority, shouldn't be writing C++ code. If your intention is to be an ordinary developer, yeah, go program in a language that holds your hand. Just because you can drive a car doesn't mean you can fly a plane, and trying to do so would be extremely dangerous. In that sense they are right, C and C++ are dangerous. If you don't know what you are doing, it's safer to stay away. Way too many people think they qualify as C programmers just because they learned the basic syntax.
is javascript memory safe ?
Yes in most cases as it handles memory allocation and garbage collection automatically.
Hell nah. My buffer, my choice!
I wonder why they suggested Ruby, when Ruby is used for web only, while C ans C++ have a different use case.
I think no one uses Ruby for some time except some legacy things.
Probably to get rid of PHP which is written in C adn C++
when Cobol was like 60 year young, people started to talk about the end of Cobol while Cobol developers and banks congratulated Cobol for stay that long wished him a happy birth day.
Decline of C and C++ started long time ago as better tools were available, but also there are many use cases where no one thinks about replacement yet.
Sooo, should i continue learning dsa with c++ or switch to java?
Just continue coding, nothing to see here 😂
You will end up learning many languages
You will eventually have to go back to C when you start learning computer architecture.
A coffee filter made out of safety pins is better than no coffee filter. That fact that Microsoft chose to go with Rust rather than some modified C# or goland alternative just says it all. The company is both deranged and right considering how they never fully solved many of the problems with their own platform and too prideful to embrace better alternatives.
Sounds like knowing c and c++ will be similar to cobol now
Zig lang is in the early stages, but is totally interoperable with C/C++ ecossystem. I bet on that.
Great move, replacing one expert-friendly language for another.
C++ is still one of the best choices for video games
Also for hpc, embedded and others
So they didn't want it invulnerable before?
Rust isn't the replacement for C in embedded, it's just too much work to fight something that wasn't made for the job. Zig on the other hand looks promising.
So if Biden and WH says we don't get pointers. Oh, but I do.
I will buy this when I will see Chrome recoded in Rust. Even Mozilla who started it all could not do this with Firefox and landed hard with Servo.
Why not ADA?
I always ask that! kkkkkkk
The White House??! Haha!! Also Rust sucks so hard. Don't believe me? Use it.
That's because it requires rethinking of approach. I felt that at first too. You just don't have the general grasp of knowing how to use it. I came from C++ and even I appreciate how it safeguards me from the nuanced "bad" practices I've been making in the past. Methods evolve, we can't always stick to "but this is how we've been doing it for years".
If you still wanna believe you're right, go ahead. Not gonna convince you otherwise.
The question is, what will be the next dominant general-purpose language?
Rust
@@user-kv4yt7ly8oAh yes, Rust, the next C++ killer. This one is special, unlike the dozens of C++ killers before it, right? Sadly it's still too young. That's what the Rust enthusiasts have been saying for over 15 years to justify Rust's failure to take off. By the time C++ was 15 years old it had already dominated the world. Indeed, by the fact any mainstream language was as old as Rust is right now, they were already much more relevant. But this one is different, right? Let's add it to the "C++ killer bucket" and hope. Personally, I'm still waiting for OCaml.
Evergreen language has most efficient memory management... seems the WH must have biased...
Java as a memory safe prog. lang.? 😂
I have started using Rust. My experience with C is it's easy to not free memory or to accidentally lock a part of code behind a mutex and not unlock it or not check a char* before you copy it's value and cause a segmentation fault.
Skills issue
Yeah. The fun part is that the compiler can theoretically detect most of these bugs but it doesn't bother. The code will silently compile and things will eventually go wrong at runtime.
@jigsaw2253 technically all issues can be solved with good enough and proper skill set, but if you want to develop and deploy dependable and secure software systematically then the less need you have for things that require great level of specific skill, the better. With rust you can ensure the same high performance and efficient low level code with less memory and security issues, not by making programming easier but enforcing good practices by language design, this is what we need if we want more predictable and quality software.
Sure there are some C masters that can play with pointers incantations to manipulate memory blindfolded and not commit any mistake that results in unaware security or memory issues to the final outcome but ¿How many of those there are?
@ohwow2074 -Wall -Werror, and yeah really
Rust is much more equivalent to C++ than C. RAII for memory management, adjusting paradigm can remove need for mutex locks and you don't have to mess with char pointers at all unless working with old C in which case you would working with Rust in unsafe mode anyway.
C and C++ aren't going anywhere. Memory leaks are a programmers lack of understanding, designing a language that safe guards you is dumb, you might as well just let AI program then. If you have less control of expression then their is no point, might as well throw yourself into a bubble.
Do you think Java would go this route?
Java is best than ever
JVM in rust? Sure yeah
COBOL decline. I would say though that they still have some life left in embedded development and C in particular as a glue language. Rust currently doesn't play so well with external dependencies so some C skills can come in useful.
I'm keep programming c/c++. You can still write very bad and code in rust. In fact you can even write unsafe code with special attributes and flags. 😅
Do you think cybersecurity would be a good field to get into? I’m 30 with no degree and work in unrelated field
If you get into cybersecurity, look at strictly from a Ai pov. I would guess that Ai based security will be the heart of it soon. Say within 5 years, you will Ai sentinels managing that. IHMO, get into development.
@@StefanMischook thanks what kind of development, I have been kinda worried about being replaced by ai in whatever endeavor I choose. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks I enjoy your wisdom. Seems like a scary time for tech workers with ai
My life is over, I only know C and C++.
Should i really switch to Rust? I am about to take the dive. I don't change stacks often.
Absolutely give it a shot.
I have tried it twice, I didn't find it particularly compelling. It's still worth learning.
c and c+ could be improved or upgraded.
Good luck porting all the trillions of lines of C/C++ code that is currently being used EVERYWHERE.
Since when does the Biden administration give any worthwhile guidance?
he often needs guidance to walk off the stage :)
Kinda ironic the Biden administration is providing guidance about memory-related issues...
Just run C++ on a safe VM
😂😂😂
Dayum bro what if the program itself can do malicious stuff?
Just use another PC and ssh it
@@-Engineering01- it's not just about the computer running the app.
VM written in rust ??
@@JohnMullee In Rust we Trust
C/C++ usage halved in 10 years is too aggressive IMO..what most people failed to grasp Rust's memory safety is not zero cost abstraction as it always hyped to be.
I'd say it would take 30-50 years for the usage to halved...C/C++ are too interconnected to everything for it to be replaced soon.
I don't want to learn rust.
I just don't get the point of this video.
Clickbait is the reason.
Ruby!!!! 😁
(slap head)
nope... it will never go away because they are very closer to the metal then these other new ligos...
So C and C++ are insecure and C# is memory safe. Ok. I laughed. Next joke.
America as a democracy. 😂 Gov. is saying what lang. you want to use. 😂 Like in a communism. 😂😂😂😂
No it isnt.
white house can ligma
When Biden administration says "use rust" I get suspicious of rust
good luck with Rust. Vulnerabilities will come also there. there is evolution and the malicious people and software will be a different thing. Rust is still a half language, and the ecosystem is the most poor that I ve ever seen.
Java is so much more reliable
So much more slow
@@dacam29not too bad once you move away from 'all data stored as strings'
@@dacam29 You are at least twenty years late. Java is fast since a long time. Even garbage collecting is fast now
C++ has a terrible productivity toolchain, people who are productive in CPP often find they are 3x more productive after learning a modern language after 8 months versus the 10 years that got them the same place with CPP , just because the toolchain is more of a glue chain , stick it together , fail , try again . C is simpler but still modern languages are just nicer to work with .
Do you have a source? I find that I am c++ to not be any less productive than c#.
And like that your channel is blocked on my feed
"... we've created a safer programming language..."
Machine Language programmer: "...hold my beer 🍺😂" 💪🙀
Rust is the future, looks like.
🙄
If you don't know how to write programs use basic. 😂
cpp should go and rust would 100% replace it...but no one could replace c
do you think it could be less of a security threat and more of a surveillance threat?