From a Mormon Publication: “Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, THEIR INTELLIGENCE STUNTED, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” (The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157) This is just sick. Mormons should be ashamed to be Mormon.
@tfwaters That's not what the Bible teaches: Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Ephesians 1:12-13 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." I'll ask again: How do you know it's the Holy Spirit who gives you the witness?
@tfwaters Are you serious? How about Bible verses to substantiate your claims... Who was this Melchizedek priest and where is it recorded that all of the Ephesians had hands laid on them by him? Where is it recorded that he was a Melchizedek priest. Where is it recorded that this Melchizedek priesthood is conferred by laying on of hands or has the "sealing power? Where is it recorded that others, besides Jesus hold this office? Where are all the LDS temple ordinances recorded in the Bible?
@tfwaters Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 28:20 "and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." 1 Corinthians 3:7 "So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."
@tfwaters No- it's u who is confused. How can there be 3 Gods when verses like the following make it clear there is only one: Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isa 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
@tfwaters What about when Christ said such things as: "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" (Matt 23:24), or when He said: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matt 23:15)? In fact read the whole of Matthew 23. Was Jesus wrong when he pointed out the badness of the false teachers in His day? Was He not being "christ-like". =)
@tfwaters That's the same reason people join Mormonism. They didn't study or pray according to GOD's Word. They prayed an ungodly prayer in spite if HIS Word. And you missed one key aspect out - the GODHEAD can only be understood through the Holy Spirit and He only indwells those who believe in the true, historical, Biblical Jesus Christ. On this subject - who is Jesus? Is He part of the one true GODHEAD or is He a separate GOD?
35 mins...Where does it say in the Bible Scriptures that when we read books we should pray to see if they are tue? It is written...nowhere. What is written is that we should "search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so". Unfortunately, Mormons haven't done that. Had they done that in the first instance, many would never have joined the LDS church. Rodney's testimony - void of Jesus Christ saving him...full of Mormon learned responses.
@tfwaters What? "eternal principle" What? I'm going to have ask you, as a teacher of the Bible, please clarify. Paul warns the the Church in a Galatia about being removed to another gospel even if it is presented by an angel. I'm saying that the very conception of the lds denomination fulfills this. Please explain clearly why this isn't the case.
@tfwaters ... or that in 1832 Joseph Smith stated in Doctrine & Covenants, section 84, verses 4 and 5, "this temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it..." To this day the spot consecrated by Smith fails to be the sight of a great temple, but instead is covered with a well-kept lawn.
@tfwaters If u are referring to me as a liberal (insult?), then show me where my doctrine puts me in that category. You're resorting to name-calling. You said: "you believe quoting scriptures justifies your un-Christlike actions" Can I have details please? Because all I have done is be honest about ur doctrine, teaching and use of Scripture. Christ and the disciples confronted false teachers and chastised them. However, they didn't defend lies, twist Scripture or the words of others like u do.
@tfwaters Your point? Studying is useless if u don't believe and recieve Christ as ur Lord and Saviour. Do u understand the Gospel of Salvation? Here is a Scripture that u would do well to understand: Rom 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Once you hear the true Gospel, you are in a position to recieve Him as your Lord & Saviour. Once you do the Holy Spirit lives in you and leads you and you follow. Evidence will authenticate! What other steps are there?
@tfwaters said "I hate to break it to you, but humans are imperfect beings." That goes for Joseph Smith as well - he had several versions of his own account of the first vision. Even your BoM had about 3000 changes, but supposedly had only one "original" to copy from. I trust GOD though, HE says "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (Isa 55:11)
@tfwaters The Gospel message is found in the Bible and from those who know the message therein. When someone recieves Christ as their Lord and Saviour they recieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14). He then leads them to the truth. But the same Bible where that Gospel message is found explains that the truth is found in the Bible (read Psalm 119:9 & 119:105; Jer 15:16; Jn 17:1-8; Acts 17:11; 2 Tim 3:16-17). You can't just pray and expect to know GOD without being led to & through HIS Word (Bible).
@tylermatthewmarz Hum? Moses 7:8, 12. Abraham 1:21 and 27. Nephi 5:21-23. Nephi 11:23. Nephi 12:23. Nephi 13:15. Nephi 30:06 Jacob 30:6 Alma 3:6,9-14. Mormon 5:15. LIke these verses? There's nothing but racisms.
@tfwaters Isn't that a contradiction? If the majority is apostate, then why would I pray to see if that was the way the Lord would have me go??? And how would I even establish it was apostate in the first place? Through comparing with the Word of GOD, as per HIS instructions. So there would be no need to pray to see if GOD wanted me to go the way of apostates. But you're saying, if it's in your heart to act in that direction, then it's okay to pray. Try reading Jer 17:9 - the heart is deceitful.
I can explain Moroni 8:18. Does God have eternal life? Yes. Do Christians believe we as mortal people have eternal life right now on earth? No. Do Christians believe that we can change and receive eternal life later? Yes. So in principle Christians recognize that our temporal nature can change into an eternal nature. What does it mean to have eternal life? _Eternal life means to transcend time_. It means once one has received eternal life they become unchangeable and are the same from all eternity to all eternity.
kimmyhitz said, "you and I both know that it does not say any of that in the bible" Yes it does. Did not Christ transform from God into a mortal man? Yes, it's in the Bible. Did not Christ die on the cross and transform into a spirit? Yes, it's in the Bible. And did not Christ then transform yet again and take upon Himself a tabernacle of flesh and bone in the resurrection? Yes, it's in the Bible. Do any of those transformative phases of God lesson His divinity? Not for me. kimmyhitz said, "And Satan will exist forever in the lake of fire with all unbelievers of God's word." I'm sorry that you judge me in this way. I believe good hearted people laboring to the best of their ability to love God and neighbor will not be cast into a lake of fire for all eternity. God is a loving God who has a plan of salvation, not just for all mankind but also personalized plans for you and for me. Eventually that plan will lead most of God's children to Christ, whether in this life or in the life to come. The sooner one embraces Christ and the fullness of His gospel the greater joy, happiness, and peace they will find.
@tfwaters Joseph Smith, however, tried to be a prophet and failed on several counts. In 1835, he tried to predict Christ's return within 56 years (see History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189) - which we can safely conclude didn't happen. If you love the truth, why do you even try to defend such a man? I have no doubts as to who John the baptist was (Luke 7:28) or his ministry, so don't question me about him. Nor do I doubt who Joseph Smith was (Deut 18:21-22). I'm more than happy to discuss him.
@tfwaters Who mentioned "rehearsed prayers"? Why do u talk to me about Catholics and Protestants as though they were the same or had anything to do with me? Your ignoring what I'm saying, I have no issue with what Mathew & James say, so why do u keep quoting Scripture as though I do. Let me remind u again - those who pray as per Moroni 10:4 are essentially not "studying to shew themselves approved unto God, workmen that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15
James, archaeology for me is not an end. It helps provide Christianity's historical plausibility. Historical plausibility then helps point someone in the direction of (or confirm existing beliefs concerning) the claims of Jesus. It's part of the larger package of sources. Take care!
Isa 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Deut 28:58 "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;" Psalm 138:2 "for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." If you truly seek HIM, search HIS Word & you will know HIM.
@tfwaters What was it u said? "The ego has a hard time handling the potential threat of being proved wrong." Sounds like u were talking about yourself. Where have u refuted me? You quote verses then add ur own diatribe to try to convince yourself and others that u are a Biblical scholar, but any honest person can see that u have done nothing to refute the glaring deficiencies with ur church's doctrine. People are trying to reach u and when u can't handle their honest observations, u get upset.
@tfwaters But Moroni is asking them to pray about something that teaches doctrine contrary to what the Bible teaches. Therein lies the problem. You don't seem to be getting the point. Ignorance or avoidance? So, he may, on the surface, appear to echo aspects of what Matthew etc record about asking GOD, but it's what's being asked that is problematic. It's like me praying to GOD to see if Islam is true and asking for a witness from the spirit to settle it - if I got a witness, is it from GOD?
@tfwaters You said: "but Moses was not where Jesus got his information" Hmm. The point is, Jesus laid down the example of quoting what was already written, not that He got His knowledge from Moses. You Mormons have an amazing knack of building strawmen to tear down that have nothing to do with the point at hand. But while we're on the subject, are you suggesting that Jesus, a synagogue-attending Jew, didn't read or study the Scriptures?
@tfwaters and let not Jo Smith deceive u, because he is part of that great falling away. Please note the falling away is not complete - it does not include all. For example: 1 Tim 4:1 says "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" Mormons like to quote 2 Thess 2:3 (see above) to show that the entire Church which Christ began had fallen away, hence the need for Joseph Smith. Not true.
@tfwaters The LORD searches the heart and if your heart says "I want to do this or pray about this, even though it is apostate", then ur heart is not right before GOD - no matter how sincere u believe you are feeling. You make it sound like ur heart is the key pivotal point in the issue. Your essentially saying "if u could believe it, then it's in your heart to believe it, that means you should pray about it." All I can say is that's an astonishingly dangerous way to establish GOD's truth.
@tfwaters To pray if Mormonism is the truth as akin to saying, "Yea, hath God said...?" No surprise when you consider what Paul says: "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
Joseph Smith wrote: God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth (Teachings, 1976).
Joseph Smith claimed that men could become gods when he stated, "Here then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you. . . ."(Teachings, 1976). Satan says, Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
@tfwaters How does the above prove that my view is limited? Strawman? Jesus is the One who brings the true restoration, when He returns (Acts 3:21-second coming). But LDS think Joseph Smith brought it. You are dead wrong.
@tfwaters Now u have just completely contradicted yourself. I really don't want to be mean, but I'm astonished that u teach Bible classes to "scholars". What kind of scholars are they, exactly? You can quote verses all over the place, but ur use of them reflects one who clearly does not understand (Bible) Scripture. You are no doubt better versed with the BoM and have been trained to use a few Bible verses to try to substantiate ur doctrine, but as with all Mormons, it's abuse of the text. =(
@aaronshaf2006 Why do you allow Mormons to bombard your videos with comments promoting their own faith? Maybe it's a time issue and you can't get around to checking it all, but they are just posting their own lds advertisement - the comments are not in response to anyone, they are just lds diatribe.
@tfwaters None of of what you have said defends the Mormon church against the mounting evidence that they fullfill the very things which Paul warned about. If you have a false gospel about another jesus from another spirit, "prophets" that declare things which do not come to pass and "apostles" who have not seen the risen Christ etc, etc, then your LDS ministers are the grievous wolves who don't spare the flock. Millions of LDS drawn to a false gospel that will destroy them spiritually.
@tfwaters I never claimed Moroni directed people to recite ritualistic prayers. U are very clever at making strawmen of issues that have nothing to do with the point at hand. U build them, then burn them down with ur supposed corrective response, but it's a facade - I never accused LDS of ritualistic prayers. As for a personal relationship with GOD - my ministry to Mormons is to point them to a "real relationship" with the true Jesus Christ. Please tell me which tradition I love more than GOD.
@tfwaters Self-righteousness! Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Bye, and may Christ remove the scales from your eyes.
@tfwaters What LDS will be reluctant to tell you: God was not always God - "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet J. Smith, pg. 345) Satan is Jesus brother - "He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous...this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." (M.R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, pg.15)
@tfwaters Jesus often replied "it is written" - not, "okay Satan, let me pray about that one" - He referred to what was already written. So as explained above, if the Gospel and doctrines of the Christian faith are contained in the Scriptures, you need not pray to ask GOD about a book or faith that promotes doctrines that are contrary to what is already contained in HIS inspired Word. Nor are we ever encouraged to pray about which "sect" to join. There is only one true Church that Christ began!
@tfwaters I know why you think those verses (Matt 7:7-8) justify your position, but they are not meant to be applied to any context without considering the whole counsel of GOD in relation to the matter. Consider for example, the verses which follow from 7-8: "Enter the narrow gate"(13); "beware false prophets"(15); "not all who say 'lord, lord' will enter the kingdom heaven, but those who do the will of my Father..."(21). Let's consider the will of the Father regarding the testing of things?
...it is clearly not from GOD, but from another spirit. So why pray about the book of Mormon then? GOD has ensured the preservation of HIS Word, as promised, so we could test all men against it and defend the faith ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints (Jude). So we could expose those who bring another gospel about another jesus? If I pray about the book of Mormon, I am more-or-less saying to GOD, "I won't take you at your Word, I will pray for a feeling instead." I'd be wide open for deception.
@tfwaters Interesting from a Mormon - I guess that's why you ended with "lol". Your "Jerusalem" is different from the Biblical one right, as is your "Israel"? If there is a 3rd temple, it kind of places your many lds temples into perspective. However, there other views on the meaning of the term "temple" in the NT (1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16). The Antichrist comes as a man of peace (Daniel 8:25). Except for true saints, USA, I'm afraid is already spiritually & economically destroyed from within.
Another Mormon publication: “The descendants of Ham, besides A BLACK SKIN which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a BLACK HEART, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the ABOLITIONISTS ARE TRYING TO MAKE VOID THE CURSE OF GOD, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE MORE POWER THAN MAN POSSESSES TO COUNTERACT THE DECREES OF ETERNAL WISDOM.” (Times and Seasons, Vol. 6, page 857) =(
@tfwaters No.!Spiritual blindness comes from not loving the truth (2 Thess 2:9-11). It is helped along the way by following after men and their fables about angels that come with different gospels about another jesus and another spirit (Gal 1:6-9; 2 Cor 11:4-6; Col 2:18-19). I'm doing this to just to argue. I honestly believe u are spiritually decieved. Please compare LDS teaching with the Bible and u will know. As I said, ur only option will be to deny the Bible, as u have already begun to.
@tfwaters There is only one true Church that Christ began and which He has kept. You are referring to "denominations", which Christ has no part in - they are the work of men - Joseph Smith is just one in a long line of many. Your point above is a case in point: forerunner = restorer ??? Christ is THE Restorer! (Acts 3:21) Why do you ask me Qs about John the baptist as though he and Joseph Smith were 2 of a kind? John was a true prophet who made clear the way of the LORD. Jesus came in his day.
@tfwaters Are you talking about translations from the Hebrew & Greek? Do you know much about the manuscripts that are available? I'm happy to use the KJV - it's my favourite, even though it has some non-critical inconsistencies. So we will agree with what it says, then? We can also check the available manuscripts to be sure we're not missing anything. I agree men are fallable, and I don't doubt that they produced "versions" of the Bible that suit their own agenda, but then so did Joseph Smith.
@tfwaters Why are u writing comments as though in response to me, without actually responding under my comments? I had no clue that u were putting this stuff down until I wondered why I hadn't heard from u for so long. I'm glad I popped back to check. Here u are pretending to put me straight and I don't even know that ur comments are for me. Ur underhanded AND dishonest. I'm not surprised - all u can do is resort to such tactics because u have no truth in u, just watery diatribe.
@tfwaters More on what LDS won't want to tell you: "When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken--He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50) There are many more heretical LDS teachings to come.
@tfwaters If I read the Kor'an, would I need to pray about that to see if it was of GOD or could I know just by reading a few verses from it or understanding a few of Islam's doctrines that it was not of GOD? In the Bible, GOD condemns adultery, should I pray about that to see if GOD wants me to do it, really? LDS misapply such verses as Matt 7:7-8 and James 1:5. They simply pluck the verses out of context & try to apply them to justify their erroneous ways.
@tfwaters That's talking about John the baptist (Matt 17:10-13), not Joseph Smith. What did Smith restore - most of what he introduced (temple sacraments and ordinances) is not found anywhere in the Bible. That's why you inevitably diminish the Bible - it does not concur with your teaching and practice, so you attack it's credibility.
Why do you allow tfwaters to bombard the comments section? She brushes the meaningful content of others aside with near endless lds diatribe and misuse of the Bible. She simply can't abide honest facts about her church that expose it's dark spiritual roots and leadership.
@tfwaters Mormons teach that Jesus was conceived by normal sexual relations, not through the Holy Spirit - "..how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The difference between Jesus Christ and other men is this: Our fathers in the flesh are mortal men, who are subject unto death: but the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the god of Heaven" (Joseph F. Smith, Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, pg. 125)
@tfwaters None of which means black skin is a curse for sins, which disqualified blacks from the priesthood. It's a farse and you try to defend it. As for Young's Adam-god theory: "Adam came into the garden of Eden with a celestial body and one of his many wives, he is our Father and God. The Father, not the Holy Spirit, conceived Jesus with the Virgin Mary." Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50 (April 9, 1852). How do you misrepresent that - it's only one of many clear quotes from him?
@tfwaters No checking against the Scriptures then, as we are instructed? You said "If a person does not "ask in faith" to receive that witness--- their faith will continue to be a belief that is unsure and unsubstantiated." What if it is substantiated by revelation of the Holy Spirit through reading the Sciptures of the Bible? Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Also read Ephesians 1:12-14. =( I'm very sad for your spiritual state. You are lost.
Blacks were excluded from the mormon priesthoods as a result for over 130 years. After the growing social pressure of racial equality in the 60s and 70s, the Mormon church sheepishly presented a new "revelation" - blacks were no longer excluded - thay had paid their due. Astonishingly, the black skin did not disappear. This topic is always an awkward one for Mormons, and their efforts to squirm out of it would be funny if not so sickeningly yellow-bellied.
@tfwaters Yes, I tend to respond slightly in the flesh when I encounter such dishonesty and guile. I admit I need to learn to respond with more gentleness. May Christ help me to that end. What about you? "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"??? On the contrary, I am finding hard to walk away, actually. You clearly are gifted in causing such levels of frustration in people that they find it hard to walk away quietly. You are only affirming my experience of Mormons - lost & dishonest.
@tfwaters Sounds like he is talking about Mormonism to me. You guys came in the last days, you have a form of godliness but deny the power of it to maintain the church throughout the ages, you're always learning (mormonism), but never coming to knowledge of the truth, you don't endure sound doctrine, but instead have stacked up false apostles and prophets, and with itching ears you have turned to Joseph Smith's fables and those of his followers..
@tfwaters Had they studied what GOD has already said in the Bible, they would realise the BoM, D&C, PoGP and History of the Ch. present another gospel about another jesus, delivered by an angel and it is confirmed by a different spirit - as per Gal 1:6-9 and 2 Cor 11:3-4. They would have had no reason to pray to know if it was true. Not Paul, nor anyone in the Bible says, "when somebody brings another gospel that differs from ours, pray to see if it's true". Read Acts 17:11-12 & 2 Tim 3:16-17.
@tfwaters I'll tell you what else they didn't do - they didn't say things that were clearly unbiblical then try to hide them from public view - like you do when you remove and spam your own ridiculous incriminating comments. You're dishonesty is clear for all to see. I guess ur the one with the ego - a Mormons who purposefully places themselves beyond reach, preferring to cling to a self-serving view of urself as an accomplished Bible-teacher, despite the efforts of other to highlight ur error.
@tfwaters No. You said "In fact each Church can act like a stepping stone to increase one's spiritual maturity. For some, a little bit of truth is enough, yet others strive for more." You are claiming that those who progress from one "church" to another are striving for more truth. I'm saying there is only one true Church, the fact that people seek more truth within it is all part of that same one true Church. Your understanding of the one true Church is flawed because of your LDS mindset.
@tfwaters False accusations also hurt. Perpetuated lies can cause offence also. You're a hypocrite and extremely deluded. Matt16:23 "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." You accuse me of "hate" but make no place for correction even when I have given a plethora of verses that refute your position and you give not one Scripturally sound response.
Sadly, the Book f Mormon teaches that black skin is a curse for sins. =( 2 Nephi 5:21 "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
The LDS gospel is not the true Gospel that Jesus Christ began Himself. The Mormon church has the name & the numbers, but the content & doctrines are entirely different to what the Bible teaches. Do not pray the the book of mormon prayer to see if it is true, check it against the Bible & you will know that it is a false gospel, from another spirit about another jesus - Gal 1:6-9 & 2 Cor 11:3-4. Mormons will tell you the Bible is corrupt & flawed, but they have to say that bcos it exposes them.
@tfwaters You're just blowing ur own trumpet. None of this proves ur theology is Biblically sound. JWs study & teach the Bible- they must have sound theology too, no? I think we'd both agree, despite their efforts, they are spiritually blinded.Why haven't u addressed the verses I gave. Are u blinded too? LDS tick all these boxes: Gal 1:6-9 (angel with another gospel); 2 Cor 11:13-15 (Satan as angel of "light" - false ministers of "light"). Why did Paul warn of such? Sounds a lot like Moroni?
Brigham Young taught death to inter-racial couples: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110) Folks this was the 2nd Mormon Prophet speaking. Look it up for yourself. I ask you, is it racism or not? This was the spirit behind the foundation of the Mormon church.
@Ozfell U said "There are countless examples of mankind being guided by prayer, the holy spirit, pondering AND study--not study alone" There may be, but I trust the context for each will be nothing like the Mormon example of praying about a book or faith that is contrary to what GOD has already said. That is the key issue. If I read the Kor'an, would I need to pray about that to see if it was of GOD or could I know just be reading a few verses or understanding a few doctrines that...
I'm amazed at the mileage lds apologists get out of a gallon of similar evidence and curcumstance. See those bones? There's proof that a great warrior named Zelph fought against bad guys whose skin was cursed dark soon after they refused to pay a full tithe and failed to keep Josephs commandments. Josephs fables leave people wandering and wondering, "have I done enough to merit the grace of God"?
@tfwaters I guess ur intention in bombarding the video with these random points is to push the comments of others away. Comments which expose ur position of error and poor teaching. But even ur comments here expose ur error. I suggest u take advice from these verses: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12, because ur making a mockery of yourself and the "church" u represent if u claim to be a teacher of the Bible. You are also spreading heresy and a you are unable to deal with simple Qs.
@tfwaters The truth hurts. Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Jesus clearly inferring His true identity, but showing men theirs - none are good. Matt 7:13-27 gives an account of your like. Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
@tfwaters I said: "Why pray about things that are apostate?" You replied: "You don't know for sure it is apostate until your receive that witness." Can you not spot the glaring deficiency in your apporach? So, we can read in the Bible, Jesus is the Son of GOD, but if someone came along and said, "no, he's just a man" - it's your opinion that the person who contradicits the Bible is correct if you recieve a witness about it through prayer? If you were not so deceived, I might laugh. =(
@tfwaters Here we go with the strawman again. Your use of Scripture is bewilderingly twisted. So, if a person doesn't pray to find out whether he should join an easily identifiable apostate group (Islam/JW/LDS/Scientology etc), he lacks faith??? Allow me to clarify: Such a person has the greatest faith - they trust GOD has the power to establish HIS Word and they trust that HE has the power to preserve it. So when apostates come along, his faith+trust in GOD's Word means he doesn't have to pray.
@tfwaters Listen to u twisting my position. My life is a personal testimony to how GOD responds to prayer through Jesus Christ. Do u have any idea what it is like to have ur sins forgiven, to have that weight lifted from ur spirit. Do u have any idea what it's like for the Holy Spirit to work in ur heart and bring u to submission in Christ and turn u from the sins you were once enslaved to. I have had so many prayers answered, not least to know HIM more...and the Holy Spirit led me to HIS Word.
@tfwaters 2 Cor 11:3-6 (warning about another jesus, gospel, spirit); BoM = another gospel. Satan's brother = another jesus. Burning bosom = another spirit. Consider, why did Paul warn of these things? Why is Mormonism a sure fit? Like Islam, it's Satan up to the same old tricks again.
@tfwaters Well if that's the case, what makes you trust in Joseph Smith & Co over the true foundation of the Church which Christ began - if they were taught by the Holy Spirit "line upon line & precept upon precept, here a little & there a little." Why do you place lds teaching over that which GOD established (as promised) "throughout the ages, world without end. Amen". You have a strange habit of quoting Biblical references that do nothing to substantiate the lds position, as tho they did.
@tfwaters Eph 1:12-13 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." Read also Acts 10:46-48 - believers who had RECIEVED the Holy Spirit before baptism or laying on of hands. I see I'm wasting my time. You're willfully dishonest with the Bible, as I predicted. I can only pray for you.
@tfwaters You said: these different understandings are "basically the same if--- interpreted correctly" Looking at your description below, I'd say you flunked that one. You're just dumbing-down the issue. You are a prime candidate for falling into the anti-Christ one-world-religion.
Perhaps Mormons feel that we should pray to see if it is racist or not - we may get a witness from the Mormon spirit. I'm being facetious, yes, but this stuf is horrific. Read below and look it up in their own literature. Maybe current LDS members do not hold such views, but their founding prophets (so called) did. Today's Mormons are of the same spirit. You will not find any such conduct given as teaching to the Church among true believers in the Bible or today. Mormons are not Christians.
@tfwaters said: "the Apostles themselves were warned by the Spirit of the Lord that the would die if they went to preach TO THE 7 CHURCHES because of Phygelus & Hermogenes" If you'd like to provide the Bible verses which clearly make this point, I'd love to see them. Is this the kind of stuff which you teach? I don't want to be disrespectful, but your understanding of the Bible and your use of Scripture is shameful. I hope and and pray that the Lord will show you this before it's too late.
@tfwaters Yes, but ur problem is the events described above are actually true. And where do u read about all this? In the Bible! Peter had walked with Jesus and personally witnessed His ministry and power. That is a far cry from praying about a book and set of doctrines that are clearly contrary to what GOD has already said through HIS Word. Receiving an affirming witness regarding false doctrines that contravene what GOD has already established cannot be from the Holy Spirit who leads to truth.
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race." -Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 101 The Mormon prophet Brigham Young on the appearence of Africans: “Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291) How can this stuff be defended? It is out and out racism from the foundation of the Mormon church. =(
@tfwaters Saul overseen the stoning to death of Stephen and other true Christians when he was in darkness. You are comparing that to what is going on here? You have no idea what persecution is, but correction is one thing it is not. This is just more of your misuse of Scripture with a flavor of "persecution syndrome". I invited you to visit "voice of the martyrs" online, but you clearly haven't taken me up on that, or you would not be making such pathetic claims. You're "conscience is seared".
@tfwaters Mormons know nothing of persecution - only persecution syndrome: anybody who, in love, tries to expose the error that entangles you is referred to as anti-mormon and you cry "it's persecution". It's laughable if not so pathetically sad. There are many true Christians who love the truth of the Gospel being killed evey day for Christ sake. Mormons are treated like pests at worse. Look up "Voice of the Martyrs" or "Open Doors" if you want to understand what real persecution is.
Mormons teach that GOD, whom Christians believe created the universe, lives on a far away planet called "Kolob". =( Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught: Kolob means "the first creation." It is the name of the planet "nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." It is "first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. . . . One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth." (Book of Abraham, pp. 34-35; Abra. 3:3-9.)
@tfwaters =) This stuff is great! You said: "They (Adam & Eve) were commanded to pray to the Father in the name of the Son" Can you provide a Bible verse for that, please? Also, isn't it the teaching of your prophet, Brigham Young, that Adam is the only GOD you have to do with? So, if he was a god, who was his god? And, oh, if you could reconcile your answer with Isa 43:10 and 44:6 that would be appreciated.
Lehi didn't discover the Americas so much as show up there and live with his family. His descendants didn't populate the entire American continent (Mormons have thought this in the past, but scholarship is getting better and better on mapping probable locations). Most of them were slaughtered at the end of the Book of Mormon. Columbus still gets his due. :)
@tfwaters You said: "yet others strive for more" That would be Mormons I suppose? You said: "In fact each Church can act like a stepping stone to increase one's spiritual maturity." There's only one true Church - the Church which Christ began and it has remained and will remain until He returns to restore "all things". The Church is not built by men. It's built by the GODHEAD. Read Jer 55:11; Matt 16:18; Matt 28:20; 1 Cor 3:7; Eph 3:21; Col 2:18-20. Please try to honestly address them. Thanks.
It seems eternal is not so eternal for Mormons or the Mormon god, because the LDS church hierarchy allow this. Matthew 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." Either divorced Mormons have been all been in adulterous marriages or they are currently in adulterous marriages.
"Recent U.S. data from the National Survey of Families and Households indicate that about 26 percent of both Latter-day Saints and non-LDS have experienced a divorce (Heaton et al., Table 2)." This makes a laughing stock of Mormonisms "eternal marriage ceremony", because among these, wedded couples are one day bonded for time and eternity at the temple - then they get divorced and each move on, married to completely different spouses and go through the same "eternal marriage" ceremony again.
@tfwaters Attending a "church" or having high morals never saved any body - besides morals are subjective, even within and between denominations. Again, your lds mindset causes you to reduce the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a set of behaviours and/or association with man-made religious organisations. Admiring them for such won't save them either. Can you please tell me your testimony?
Don't be fooled by Mormons when they present their "gospel" message.At a glance, it looks like a normal Christian message but with a few hooks to catch the undiscerning, like the Church fell away completely and Joseph Smith restored it, or eternal marriage. If you compare these claims to what the Bible actually says, you will find them out. Please note, the basic message they present is just the facade. Behind it are antichrist doctrines and many Mormons have had more than 1 eternal marriage.
@tfwaters Two can play your game. You keep quoting things from the Bible as though they were the heart of Mormonism. Yet, what you are quoting does nothing to alleviate your position as heretical & apostate. You have ignored many of the issues raised and tried to rid them from view by inserting myriad quotes to disguise yourself as Christian. So, in like manner, I will post as many heretical points from your LDS church's teachings to ensure others can see them for what they are - apostate. Like?
So much hard work to try in any possible way to find a shred of something to which they can cling in hopes of rescuing an otherwise totally hopeless scenario for the truth of the BoM.
@tfwaters Mormons won't be happy for you to know their founding "prophet", Joseph Smith made false prophesies - For instance, in 1835 Smith claimed that the Lord would again come in just 56 years. We would gather from this "prophecy" that Jesus Christ would again come to earth on or before 1891; no doubt Joseph Smith was incorrect (History of the church 2:182).
Bless your ministry
The interviewer here is very articulate and knowledgeable about what types of questions to ask.
What's wrong with denouncing false teachings? Shouldn't somebody say something?
From a Mormon Publication:
“Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, THEIR INTELLIGENCE STUNTED, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” (The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157)
This is just sick. Mormons should be ashamed to be Mormon.
@tfwaters
That's not what the Bible teaches:
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Ephesians 1:12-13 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
I'll ask again: How do you know it's the Holy Spirit who gives you the witness?
@tfwaters
Are you serious? How about Bible verses to substantiate your claims...
Who was this Melchizedek priest and where is it recorded that all of the Ephesians had hands laid on them by him? Where is it recorded that he was a Melchizedek priest. Where is it recorded that this Melchizedek priesthood is conferred by laying on of hands or has the "sealing power? Where is it recorded that others, besides Jesus hold this office? Where are all the LDS temple ordinances recorded in the Bible?
I appreciated very much the civility and respect displayed by both participants. We could use a lot more of that!
@tfwaters
Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 28:20 "and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
1 Corinthians 3:7 "So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."
Ephesians 3:21 "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."
Looks like Joseph Smith & Co shot their Mormon arrows and wherever they landed...the Mormons have been trying to draw targets around them ever since.
@tfwaters
No- it's u who is confused.
How can there be 3 Gods when verses like the following make it clear there is only one:
Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."
Isa 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."
@tfwaters What about when Christ said such things as: "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel" (Matt 23:24), or when He said: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves" (Matt 23:15)? In fact read the whole of Matthew 23. Was Jesus wrong when he pointed out the badness of the false teachers in His day? Was He not being "christ-like". =)
@tfwaters
That's the same reason people join Mormonism. They didn't study or pray according to GOD's Word. They prayed an ungodly prayer in spite if HIS Word. And you missed one key aspect out - the GODHEAD can only be understood through the Holy Spirit and He only indwells those who believe in the true, historical, Biblical Jesus Christ. On this subject - who is Jesus? Is He part of the one true GODHEAD or is He a separate GOD?
35 mins...Where does it say in the Bible Scriptures that when we read books we should pray to see if they are tue? It is written...nowhere. What is written is that we should "search the Scriptures to see whether these things be so". Unfortunately, Mormons haven't done that. Had they done that in the first instance, many would never have joined the LDS church.
Rodney's testimony - void of Jesus Christ saving him...full of Mormon learned responses.
@tfwaters What? "eternal principle" What? I'm going to have ask you, as a teacher of the Bible, please clarify. Paul warns the the Church in a Galatia about being removed to another gospel even if it is presented by an angel. I'm saying that the very conception of the lds denomination fulfills this. Please explain clearly why this isn't the case.
@tfwaters
... or that in 1832 Joseph Smith stated in Doctrine & Covenants, section 84, verses 4 and 5, "this temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it..."
To this day the spot consecrated by Smith fails to be the sight of a great temple, but instead is covered with a well-kept lawn.
@tfwaters
If u are referring to me as a liberal (insult?), then show me where my doctrine puts me in that category. You're resorting to name-calling.
You said: "you believe quoting scriptures justifies your un-Christlike actions"
Can I have details please? Because all I have done is be honest about ur doctrine, teaching and use of Scripture. Christ and the disciples confronted false teachers and chastised them. However, they didn't defend lies, twist Scripture or the words of others like u do.
@tfwaters
Your point? Studying is useless if u don't believe and recieve Christ as ur Lord and Saviour. Do u understand the Gospel of Salvation? Here is a Scripture that u would do well to understand:
Rom 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Once you hear the true Gospel, you are in a position to recieve Him as your Lord & Saviour. Once you do the Holy Spirit lives in you and leads you and you follow. Evidence will authenticate! What other steps are there?
@tfwaters said "I hate to break it to you, but humans are imperfect beings."
That goes for Joseph Smith as well - he had several versions of his own account of the first vision. Even your BoM had about 3000 changes, but supposedly had only one "original" to copy from.
I trust GOD though, HE says "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." (Isa 55:11)
@tfwaters
The Gospel message is found in the Bible and from those who know the message therein. When someone recieves Christ as their Lord and Saviour they recieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14). He then leads them to the truth. But the same Bible where that Gospel message is found explains that the truth is found in the Bible (read Psalm 119:9 & 119:105; Jer 15:16; Jn 17:1-8; Acts 17:11; 2 Tim 3:16-17). You can't just pray and expect to know GOD without being led to & through HIS Word (Bible).
@tylermatthewmarz Hum? Moses 7:8, 12. Abraham 1:21 and 27. Nephi 5:21-23. Nephi 11:23. Nephi 12:23. Nephi 13:15. Nephi 30:06 Jacob 30:6 Alma 3:6,9-14. Mormon 5:15. LIke these verses? There's nothing but racisms.
@tfwaters Isn't that a contradiction? If the majority is apostate, then why would I pray to see if that was the way the Lord would have me go??? And how would I even establish it was apostate in the first place? Through comparing with the Word of GOD, as per HIS instructions. So there would be no need to pray to see if GOD wanted me to go the way of apostates. But you're saying, if it's in your heart to act in that direction, then it's okay to pray. Try reading Jer 17:9 - the heart is deceitful.
I can explain Moroni 8:18. Does God have eternal life? Yes. Do Christians believe we as mortal people have eternal life right now on earth? No. Do Christians believe that we can change and receive eternal life later? Yes. So in principle Christians recognize that our temporal nature can change into an eternal nature. What does it mean to have eternal life? _Eternal life means to transcend time_. It means once one has received eternal life they become unchangeable and are the same from all eternity to all eternity.
kimmyhitz said, "you and I both know that it does not say any of that in the bible"
Yes it does. Did not Christ transform from God into a mortal man? Yes, it's in the Bible. Did not Christ die on the cross and transform into a spirit? Yes, it's in the Bible. And did not Christ then transform yet again and take upon Himself a tabernacle of flesh and bone in the resurrection? Yes, it's in the Bible. Do any of those transformative phases of God lesson His divinity? Not for me.
kimmyhitz said, "And Satan will exist forever in the lake of fire with all unbelievers of God's word."
I'm sorry that you judge me in this way. I believe good hearted people laboring to the best of their ability to love God and neighbor will not be cast into a lake of fire for all eternity. God is a loving God who has a plan of salvation, not just for all mankind but also personalized plans for you and for me. Eventually that plan will lead most of God's children to Christ, whether in this life or in the life to come. The sooner one embraces Christ and the fullness of His gospel the greater joy, happiness, and peace they will find.
@tfwaters Joseph Smith, however, tried to be a prophet and failed on several counts. In 1835, he tried to predict Christ's return within 56 years (see History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189) - which we can safely conclude didn't happen.
If you love the truth, why do you even try to defend such a man?
I have no doubts as to who John the baptist was (Luke 7:28) or his ministry, so don't question me about him. Nor do I doubt who Joseph Smith was (Deut 18:21-22). I'm more than happy to discuss him.
@tfwaters
Who mentioned "rehearsed prayers"? Why do u talk to me about Catholics and Protestants as though they were the same or had anything to do with me? Your ignoring what I'm saying, I have no issue with what Mathew & James say, so why do u keep quoting Scripture as though I do. Let me remind u again - those who pray as per Moroni 10:4 are essentially not "studying to shew themselves approved unto God, workmen that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15
This guy knows a lot about Church History.
James, archaeology for me is not an end. It helps provide Christianity's historical plausibility. Historical plausibility then helps point someone in the direction of (or confirm existing beliefs concerning) the claims of Jesus. It's part of the larger package of sources. Take care!
Isa 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
Deut 28:58 "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;"
Psalm 138:2 "for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."
If you truly seek HIM, search HIS Word & you will know HIM.
@tfwaters
What was it u said?
"The ego has a hard time handling the potential threat of being proved wrong."
Sounds like u were talking about yourself.
Where have u refuted me? You quote verses then add ur own diatribe to try to convince yourself and others that u are a Biblical scholar, but any honest person can see that u have done nothing to refute the glaring deficiencies with ur church's doctrine. People are trying to reach u and when u can't handle their honest observations, u get upset.
@tfwaters But Moroni is asking them to pray about something that teaches doctrine contrary to what the Bible teaches. Therein lies the problem. You don't seem to be getting the point. Ignorance or avoidance? So, he may, on the surface, appear to echo aspects of what Matthew etc record about asking GOD, but it's what's being asked that is problematic. It's like me praying to GOD to see if Islam is true and asking for a witness from the spirit to settle it - if I got a witness, is it from GOD?
@tfwaters
You said: "but Moses was not where Jesus got his information"
Hmm. The point is, Jesus laid down the example of quoting what was already written, not that He got His knowledge from Moses. You Mormons have an amazing knack of building strawmen to tear down that have nothing to do with the point at hand.
But while we're on the subject, are you suggesting that Jesus, a synagogue-attending Jew, didn't read or study the Scriptures?
@tfwaters and let not Jo Smith deceive u, because he is part of that great falling away. Please note the falling away is not complete - it does not include all. For example:
1 Tim 4:1 says "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times SOME shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
Mormons like to quote 2 Thess 2:3 (see above) to show that the entire Church which Christ began had fallen away, hence the need for Joseph Smith. Not true.
@tfwaters
The LORD searches the heart and if your heart says "I want to do this or pray about this, even though it is apostate", then ur heart is not right before GOD - no matter how sincere u believe you are feeling. You make it sound like ur heart is the key pivotal point in the issue. Your essentially saying "if u could believe it, then it's in your heart to believe it, that means you should pray about it." All I can say is that's an astonishingly dangerous way to establish GOD's truth.
@tfwaters To pray if Mormonism is the truth as akin to saying, "Yea, hath God said...?" No surprise when you consider what Paul says:
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."
Joseph Smith wrote:
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth (Teachings, 1976).
Joseph Smith claimed that men could become gods when he stated,
"Here then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you. . . ."(Teachings, 1976).
Satan says, Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
@tfwaters
How does the above prove that my view is limited? Strawman?
Jesus is the One who brings the true restoration, when He returns (Acts 3:21-second coming). But LDS think Joseph Smith brought it. You are dead wrong.
@tfwaters
Now u have just completely contradicted yourself. I really don't want to be mean, but I'm astonished that u teach Bible classes to "scholars". What kind of scholars are they, exactly? You can quote verses all over the place, but ur use of them reflects one who clearly does not understand (Bible) Scripture. You are no doubt better versed with the BoM and have been trained to use a few Bible verses to try to substantiate ur doctrine, but as with all Mormons, it's abuse of the text. =(
@aaronshaf2006 Why do you allow Mormons to bombard your videos with comments promoting their own faith? Maybe it's a time issue and you can't get around to checking it all, but they are just posting their own lds advertisement - the comments are not in response to anyone, they are just lds diatribe.
@tfwaters None of of what you have said defends the Mormon church against the mounting evidence that they fullfill the very things which Paul warned about. If you have a false gospel about another jesus from another spirit, "prophets" that declare things which do not come to pass and "apostles" who have not seen the risen Christ etc, etc, then your LDS ministers are the grievous wolves who don't spare the flock. Millions of LDS drawn to a false gospel that will destroy them spiritually.
@tfwaters
I never claimed Moroni directed people to recite ritualistic prayers. U are very clever at making strawmen of issues that have nothing to do with the point at hand. U build them, then burn them down with ur supposed corrective response, but it's a facade - I never accused LDS of ritualistic prayers. As for a personal relationship with GOD - my ministry to Mormons is to point them to a "real relationship" with the true Jesus Christ. Please tell me which tradition I love more than GOD.
@tfwaters Self-righteousness!
Matt 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Bye, and may Christ remove the scales from your eyes.
@tfwaters
What LDS will be reluctant to tell you:
God was not always God -
"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet J. Smith, pg. 345)
Satan is Jesus brother -
"He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous...this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." (M.R. Hunter, Gospel Through the Ages, pg.15)
@tfwaters
Jesus often replied "it is written" - not, "okay Satan, let me pray about that one" - He referred to what was already written. So as explained above, if the Gospel and doctrines of the Christian faith are contained in the Scriptures, you need not pray to ask GOD about a book or faith that promotes doctrines that are contrary to what is already contained in HIS inspired Word.
Nor are we ever encouraged to pray about which "sect" to join. There is only one true Church that Christ began!
@tfwaters
I know why you think those verses (Matt 7:7-8) justify your position, but they are not meant to be applied to any context without considering the whole counsel of GOD in relation to the matter. Consider for example, the verses which follow from 7-8: "Enter the narrow gate"(13); "beware false prophets"(15); "not all who say 'lord, lord' will enter the kingdom heaven, but those who do the will of my Father..."(21). Let's consider the will of the Father regarding the testing of things?
...it is clearly not from GOD, but from another spirit.
So why pray about the book of Mormon then? GOD has ensured the preservation of HIS Word, as promised, so we could test all men against it and defend the faith ONCE FOR ALL delivered to the saints (Jude). So we could expose those who bring another gospel about another jesus? If I pray about the book of Mormon, I am more-or-less saying to GOD, "I won't take you at your Word, I will pray for a feeling instead."
I'd be wide open for deception.
@tfwaters
Interesting from a Mormon - I guess that's why you ended with "lol". Your "Jerusalem" is different from the Biblical one right, as is your "Israel"?
If there is a 3rd temple, it kind of places your many lds temples into perspective.
However, there other views on the meaning of the term "temple" in the NT (1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16).
The Antichrist comes as a man of peace (Daniel 8:25). Except for true saints, USA, I'm afraid is already spiritually & economically destroyed from within.
Another Mormon publication:
“The descendants of Ham, besides A BLACK SKIN which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a BLACK HEART, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the ABOLITIONISTS ARE TRYING TO MAKE VOID THE CURSE OF GOD, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE MORE POWER THAN MAN POSSESSES TO COUNTERACT THE DECREES OF ETERNAL WISDOM.”
(Times and Seasons, Vol. 6, page 857)
=(
@tfwaters
No.!Spiritual blindness comes from not loving the truth (2 Thess 2:9-11). It is helped along the way by following after men and their fables about angels that come with different gospels about another jesus and another spirit (Gal 1:6-9; 2 Cor 11:4-6; Col 2:18-19). I'm doing this to just to argue. I honestly believe u are spiritually decieved. Please compare LDS teaching with the Bible and u will know. As I said, ur only option will be to deny the Bible, as u have already begun to.
If we had "very little" evidence of the great battle in Hill Cumorah, that would be quite different than "none."
@tfwaters There is only one true Church that Christ began and which He has kept. You are referring to "denominations", which Christ has no part in - they are the work of men - Joseph Smith is just one in a long line of many.
Your point above is a case in point: forerunner = restorer ??? Christ is THE Restorer! (Acts 3:21)
Why do you ask me Qs about John the baptist as though he and Joseph Smith were 2 of a kind? John was a true prophet who made clear the way of the LORD. Jesus came in his day.
@tfwaters
Are you talking about translations from the Hebrew & Greek? Do you know much about the manuscripts that are available? I'm happy to use the KJV - it's my favourite, even though it has some non-critical inconsistencies. So we will agree with what it says, then? We can also check the available manuscripts to be sure we're not missing anything.
I agree men are fallable, and I don't doubt that they produced "versions" of the Bible that suit their own agenda, but then so did Joseph Smith.
@tfwaters
Why are u writing comments as though in response to me, without actually responding under my comments? I had no clue that u were putting this stuff down until I wondered why I hadn't heard from u for so long. I'm glad I popped back to check. Here u are pretending to put me straight and I don't even know that ur comments are for me. Ur underhanded AND dishonest. I'm not surprised - all u can do is resort to such tactics because u have no truth in u, just watery diatribe.
@tfwaters More on what LDS won't want to tell you:
"When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken--He is our Father, and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50)
There are many more heretical LDS teachings to come.
@tfwaters
If I read the Kor'an, would I need to pray about that to see if it was of GOD or could I know just by reading a few verses from it or understanding a few of Islam's doctrines that it was not of GOD? In the Bible, GOD condemns adultery, should I pray about that to see if GOD wants me to do it, really?
LDS misapply such verses as Matt 7:7-8 and James 1:5. They simply pluck the verses out of context & try to apply them to justify their erroneous ways.
@tfwaters That's talking about John the baptist (Matt 17:10-13), not Joseph Smith. What did Smith restore - most of what he introduced (temple sacraments and ordinances) is not found anywhere in the Bible. That's why you inevitably diminish the Bible - it does not concur with your teaching and practice, so you attack it's credibility.
Why do you allow tfwaters to bombard the comments section? She brushes the meaningful content of others aside with near endless lds diatribe and misuse of the Bible. She simply can't abide honest facts about her church that expose it's dark spiritual roots and leadership.
@tfwaters
Mormons teach that Jesus was conceived by normal sexual relations, not through the Holy Spirit -
"..how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. The difference between Jesus Christ and other men is this: Our fathers in the flesh are mortal men, who are subject unto death: but the Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the god of Heaven" (Joseph F. Smith, Family Home Evening Manual, 1972, pg. 125)
@tfwaters
None of which means black skin is a curse for sins, which disqualified blacks from the priesthood. It's a farse and you try to defend it.
As for Young's Adam-god theory:
"Adam came into the garden of Eden with a celestial body and one of his many wives, he is our Father and God. The Father, not the Holy Spirit, conceived Jesus with the Virgin Mary." Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p. 50 (April 9, 1852).
How do you misrepresent that - it's only one of many clear quotes from him?
@tfwaters
No checking against the Scriptures then, as we are instructed?
You said "If a person does not "ask in faith" to receive that witness--- their faith will continue to be a belief that is unsure and unsubstantiated."
What if it is substantiated by revelation of the Holy Spirit through reading the Sciptures of the Bible?
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Also read Ephesians 1:12-14.
=( I'm very sad for your spiritual state. You are lost.
Thanks Aaron for all your hard work!
The truth can not be disproven, but lies are soo easy! :)
Blacks were excluded from the mormon priesthoods as a result for over 130 years. After the growing social pressure of racial equality in the 60s and 70s, the Mormon church sheepishly presented a new "revelation" - blacks were no longer excluded - thay had paid their due. Astonishingly, the black skin did not disappear. This topic is always an awkward one for Mormons, and their efforts to squirm out of it would be funny if not so sickeningly yellow-bellied.
@tfwaters Yes, I tend to respond slightly in the flesh when I encounter such dishonesty and guile. I admit I need to learn to respond with more gentleness. May Christ help me to that end.
What about you?
"it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"??? On the contrary, I am finding hard to walk away, actually. You clearly are gifted in causing such levels of frustration in people that they find it hard to walk away quietly. You are only affirming my experience of Mormons - lost & dishonest.
@tfwaters Sounds like he is talking about Mormonism to me. You guys came in the last days, you have a form of godliness but deny the power of it to maintain the church throughout the ages, you're always learning (mormonism), but never coming to knowledge of the truth, you don't endure sound doctrine, but instead have stacked up false apostles and prophets, and with itching ears you have turned to Joseph Smith's fables and those of his followers..
@tfwaters
Had they studied what GOD has already said in the Bible, they would realise the BoM, D&C, PoGP and History of the Ch. present another gospel about another jesus, delivered by an angel and it is confirmed by a different spirit - as per Gal 1:6-9 and 2 Cor 11:3-4. They would have had no reason to pray to know if it was true. Not Paul, nor anyone in the Bible says, "when somebody brings another gospel that differs from ours, pray to see if it's true". Read Acts 17:11-12 & 2 Tim 3:16-17.
If people spread out after the flood after Babel, one would expect some similarities having nothing to do with the book of Mormon
@tfwaters
I'll tell you what else they didn't do - they didn't say things that were clearly unbiblical then try to hide them from public view - like you do when you remove and spam your own ridiculous incriminating comments. You're dishonesty is clear for all to see. I guess ur the one with the ego - a Mormons who purposefully places themselves beyond reach, preferring to cling to a self-serving view of urself as an accomplished Bible-teacher, despite the efforts of other to highlight ur error.
@tfwaters No. You said "In fact each Church can act like a stepping stone to increase one's spiritual maturity. For some, a little bit of truth is enough, yet others strive for more."
You are claiming that those who progress from one "church" to another are striving for more truth. I'm saying there is only one true Church, the fact that people seek more truth within it is all part of that same one true Church. Your understanding of the one true Church is flawed because of your LDS mindset.
@tfwaters False accusations also hurt. Perpetuated lies can cause offence also. You're a hypocrite and extremely deluded. Matt16:23 "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
You accuse me of "hate" but make no place for correction even when I have given a plethora of verses that refute your position and you give not one Scripturally sound response.
Sadly, the Book f Mormon teaches that black skin is a curse for sins. =(
2 Nephi 5:21 "And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
The LDS gospel is not the true Gospel that Jesus Christ began Himself. The Mormon church has the name & the numbers, but the content & doctrines are entirely different to what the Bible teaches. Do not pray the the book of mormon prayer to see if it is true, check it against the Bible & you will know that it is a false gospel, from another spirit about another jesus - Gal 1:6-9 & 2 Cor 11:3-4. Mormons will tell you the Bible is corrupt & flawed, but they have to say that bcos it exposes them.
@tfwaters You're just blowing ur own trumpet. None of this proves ur theology is Biblically sound. JWs study & teach the Bible- they must have sound theology too, no? I think we'd both agree, despite their efforts, they are spiritually blinded.Why haven't u addressed the verses I gave. Are u blinded too?
LDS tick all these boxes:
Gal 1:6-9 (angel with another gospel);
2 Cor 11:13-15 (Satan as angel of "light" - false ministers of "light").
Why did Paul warn of such? Sounds a lot like Moroni?
Brigham Young taught death to inter-racial couples:
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the AFRICAN RACE? If the WHITE man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the PENALTY, under the LAW OF GOD, IS DEATH ON THE SPOT. THIS WILL ALWAYS BE SO.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110)
Folks this was the 2nd Mormon Prophet speaking. Look it up for yourself. I ask you, is it racism or not?
This was the spirit behind the foundation of the Mormon church.
@Ozfell U said "There are countless examples of mankind being guided by prayer, the holy spirit, pondering AND study--not study alone"
There may be, but I trust the context for each will be nothing like the Mormon example of praying about a book or faith that is contrary to what GOD has already said.
That is the key issue. If I read the Kor'an, would I need to pray about that to see if it was of GOD or could I know just be reading a few verses or understanding a few doctrines that...
I'm amazed at the mileage lds apologists get out of a gallon of similar evidence and curcumstance. See those bones? There's proof that a great warrior named Zelph fought against bad guys whose skin was cursed dark soon after they refused to pay a full tithe and failed to keep Josephs commandments. Josephs fables leave people wandering and wondering, "have I done enough to merit the grace of God"?
@tfwaters I guess ur intention in bombarding the video with these random points is to push the comments of others away. Comments which expose ur position of error and poor teaching. But even ur comments here expose ur error. I suggest u take advice from these verses: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12, because ur making a mockery of yourself and the "church" u represent if u claim to be a teacher of the Bible. You are also spreading heresy and a you are unable to deal with simple Qs.
@tfwaters The truth hurts.
Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
Jesus clearly inferring His true identity, but showing men theirs - none are good. Matt 7:13-27 gives an account of your like.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
@tfwaters
I said: "Why pray about things that are apostate?"
You replied: "You don't know for sure it is apostate until your receive that witness."
Can you not spot the glaring deficiency in your apporach?
So, we can read in the Bible, Jesus is the Son of GOD, but if someone came along and said, "no, he's just a man" - it's your opinion that the person who contradicits the Bible is correct if you recieve a witness about it through prayer?
If you were not so deceived, I might laugh. =(
@tfwaters Here we go with the strawman again. Your use of Scripture is bewilderingly twisted. So, if a person doesn't pray to find out whether he should join an easily identifiable apostate group (Islam/JW/LDS/Scientology etc), he lacks faith??? Allow me to clarify: Such a person has the greatest faith - they trust GOD has the power to establish HIS Word and they trust that HE has the power to preserve it. So when apostates come along, his faith+trust in GOD's Word means he doesn't have to pray.
@tfwaters
Listen to u twisting my position. My life is a personal testimony to how GOD responds to prayer through Jesus Christ. Do u have any idea what it is like to have ur sins forgiven, to have that weight lifted from ur spirit. Do u have any idea what it's like for the Holy Spirit to work in ur heart and bring u to submission in Christ and turn u from the sins you were once enslaved to. I have had so many prayers answered, not least to know HIM more...and the Holy Spirit led me to HIS Word.
@tfwaters
2 Cor 11:3-6 (warning about another jesus, gospel, spirit);
BoM = another gospel.
Satan's brother = another jesus.
Burning bosom = another spirit.
Consider, why did Paul warn of these things? Why is Mormonism a sure fit? Like Islam, it's Satan up to the same old tricks again.
@tfwaters Well if that's the case, what makes you trust in Joseph Smith & Co over the true foundation of the Church which Christ began - if they were taught by the Holy Spirit "line upon line & precept upon precept, here a little & there a little."
Why do you place lds teaching over that which GOD established (as promised) "throughout the ages, world without end. Amen".
You have a strange habit of quoting Biblical references that do nothing to substantiate the lds position, as tho they did.
@tfwaters
Eph 1:12-13 "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER THAT YE BELIEVED, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."
Read also Acts 10:46-48 - believers who had RECIEVED the Holy Spirit before baptism or laying on of hands.
I see I'm wasting my time. You're willfully dishonest with the Bible, as I predicted. I can only pray for you.
@tfwaters
You said: these different understandings are "basically the same if--- interpreted correctly"
Looking at your description below, I'd say you flunked that one. You're just dumbing-down the issue.
You are a prime candidate for falling into the anti-Christ one-world-religion.
Perhaps Mormons feel that we should pray to see if it is racist or not - we may get a witness from the Mormon spirit. I'm being facetious, yes, but this stuf is horrific. Read below and look it up in their own literature. Maybe current LDS members do not hold such views, but their founding prophets (so called) did. Today's Mormons are of the same spirit. You will not find any such conduct given as teaching to the Church among true believers in the Bible or today.
Mormons are not Christians.
@tfwaters said: "the Apostles themselves were warned by the Spirit of the Lord that the would die if they went to preach TO THE 7 CHURCHES because of Phygelus & Hermogenes"
If you'd like to provide the Bible verses which clearly make this point, I'd love to see them.
Is this the kind of stuff which you teach? I don't want to be disrespectful, but your understanding of the Bible and your use of Scripture is shameful. I hope and and pray that the Lord will show you this before it's too late.
@tfwaters
Yes, but ur problem is the events described above are actually true. And where do u read about all this? In the Bible! Peter had walked with Jesus and personally witnessed His ministry and power. That is a far cry from praying about a book and set of doctrines that are clearly contrary to what GOD has already said through HIS Word. Receiving an affirming witness regarding false doctrines that contravene what GOD has already established cannot be from the Holy Spirit who leads to truth.
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race."
-Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 101
The Mormon prophet Brigham Young on the appearence of Africans:
“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)
How can this stuff be defended? It is out and out racism from the foundation of the Mormon church. =(
@tfwaters
Saul overseen the stoning to death of Stephen and other true Christians when he was in darkness. You are comparing that to what is going on here? You have no idea what persecution is, but correction is one thing it is not. This is just more of your misuse of Scripture with a flavor of "persecution syndrome". I invited you to visit "voice of the martyrs" online, but you clearly haven't taken me up on that, or you would not be making such pathetic claims. You're "conscience is seared".
@tfwaters
Mormons know nothing of persecution - only persecution syndrome: anybody who, in love, tries to expose the error that entangles you is referred to as anti-mormon and you cry "it's persecution". It's laughable if not so pathetically sad. There are many true Christians who love the truth of the Gospel being killed evey day for Christ sake. Mormons are treated like pests at worse. Look up "Voice of the Martyrs" or "Open Doors" if you want to understand what real persecution is.
Mormons teach that GOD, whom Christians believe created the universe, lives on a far away planet called "Kolob". =(
Mormon Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught:
Kolob means "the first creation." It is the name of the planet "nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." It is "first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. . . . One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth." (Book of Abraham, pp. 34-35; Abra. 3:3-9.)
@tfwaters =) This stuff is great!
You said: "They (Adam & Eve) were commanded to pray to the Father in the name of the Son"
Can you provide a Bible verse for that, please?
Also, isn't it the teaching of your prophet, Brigham Young, that Adam is the only GOD you have to do with? So, if he was a god, who was his god? And, oh, if you could reconcile your answer with Isa 43:10 and 44:6 that would be appreciated.
Lehi didn't discover the Americas so much as show up there and live with his family. His descendants didn't populate the entire American continent (Mormons have thought this in the past, but scholarship is getting better and better on mapping probable locations). Most of them were slaughtered at the end of the Book of Mormon. Columbus still gets his due. :)
@tfwaters
You said: "yet others strive for more"
That would be Mormons I suppose?
You said: "In fact each Church can act like a stepping stone to increase one's spiritual maturity."
There's only one true Church - the Church which Christ began and it has remained and will remain until He returns to restore "all things". The Church is not built by men. It's built by the GODHEAD.
Read Jer 55:11; Matt 16:18; Matt 28:20; 1 Cor 3:7; Eph 3:21; Col 2:18-20.
Please try to honestly address them. Thanks.
It seems eternal is not so eternal for Mormons or the Mormon god, because the LDS church hierarchy allow this.
Matthew 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Either divorced Mormons have been all been in adulterous marriages or they are currently in adulterous marriages.
"Recent U.S. data from the National Survey of Families and Households indicate that about 26 percent of both Latter-day Saints and non-LDS have experienced a divorce (Heaton et al., Table 2)."
This makes a laughing stock of Mormonisms "eternal marriage ceremony", because among these, wedded couples are one day bonded for time and eternity at the temple - then they get divorced and each move on, married to completely different spouses and go through the same "eternal marriage" ceremony again.
@tfwaters Attending a "church" or having high morals never saved any body - besides morals are subjective, even within and between denominations. Again, your lds mindset causes you to reduce the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a set of behaviours and/or association with man-made religious organisations. Admiring them for such won't save them either.
Can you please tell me your testimony?
Don't be fooled by Mormons when they present their "gospel" message.At a glance, it looks like a normal Christian message but with a few hooks to catch the undiscerning, like the Church fell away completely and Joseph Smith restored it, or eternal marriage. If you compare these claims to what the Bible actually says, you will find them out. Please note, the basic message they present is just the facade. Behind it are antichrist doctrines and many Mormons have had more than 1 eternal marriage.
@tfwaters Two can play your game. You keep quoting things from the Bible as though they were the heart of Mormonism. Yet, what you are quoting does nothing to alleviate your position as heretical & apostate. You have ignored many of the issues raised and tried to rid them from view by inserting myriad quotes to disguise yourself as Christian. So, in like manner, I will post as many heretical points from your LDS church's teachings to ensure others can see them for what they are - apostate. Like?
So much hard work to try in any possible way to find a shred of something to which they can cling in hopes of rescuing an otherwise totally hopeless scenario for the truth of the BoM.
@tfwaters
Mormons won't be happy for you to know their founding "prophet", Joseph Smith made false prophesies -
For instance, in 1835 Smith claimed that the Lord would again come in just 56 years. We would gather from this "prophecy" that Jesus Christ would again come to earth on or before 1891; no doubt Joseph Smith was incorrect (History of the church 2:182).