Discussion with Insolent Mormon Apologist
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Travis Ryan Anderson is an admin in a Facebook group called "The Cavalry" ( / 135654108405452 . The group limits participation "to missionaries and those about to serve" (August 7, 2024).
A December 7, 2022 post from the group reads:
"Elders and Sisters, please don't invite or encourage your Mission Presidents to join this Group. We aren't trying to be elusive, but avoid issues with those who might misunderstand. Our goals are to assist with more difficult issues you encounter, mostly when those might effect your own testimony. We are trying to encourage a love and desire for a lifetime of Gospel learning and introduction to how scholarship can affirm, not detract from a Testimony...
"If a Mission President (who we respect and who has Keys we acknowledge) were to enter this Group, we might get disagreement between them and one of the (as you call them) 'Scholars' respecting the information shared resulting from that Mission President being unfamiliar or unaware of the issues from a more academic perspective. In that scenario, I for one, don't want to be involved in a debate with a Mission President trying to dispel or explain an issue. It creates a tension that is unnecessary."
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Aaron reads scripture: "You can't do that"
Aaron doesn't read scripture: "Where is your scripture?"
Way to keep patient and de-escelate throughout this talk Aaron! God's word never returns empty! I have been encouraged and taught through this interaction. God bless you, your family, and your ministry!
His repeated use of the question, "What does that mean?" seems to serve to water down the force of the scripture Aaron quoted. When Aaron lays out his understanding of a scripture prior to quoting that scripture, though, it's treated as illegitimate. A mindboggling technique. Well done, Aaron, for striving for a positive interaction here.
I am AMAZED by Aaron's patience here
It should be studied
Thank you Aaron for demonstrating love and patience. I watched on the apologia page but I wanted to thank you and all those that have ministered to the mormon people. God works through this effort. Even when you don't see the results. I am grateful for modern technology that allows truth to overcome lies, and light to overcome darkness. I would never have chosen to leave Mormonism but his will be done in my life and in the lives of all who hear his voice and come unto him. God bless
Thank you, Aaron, for glorifying God with your profound patience, composure, and love.
I saw this on Aplogia Utah, thank you Aaron for being a good demonstration of love and patience for the lost. I struggled to watch this all the way through but I wanted to, to see how you demonstrated Christs patience with us. This is an area I need to grow in. Thank you brother 🙏
I had the very same thoughts. He shows such patience and love.
This guy does not represent LDS people in general. He is annoying for me to watch as a Mormon.
He is more intelligent than most members and actually understands our theology.
I’ve been a Mormon my whole 45 years. I’ve never seen another fellow Mormon argue so brilliantly. I am amazed at Travis intellect and skill and knowledge of true Mormon theology.
Travis is My HERO!!! Aaron, You can't be Expected to be let loose when your Building on Things that are Untrue!!
having seen your Kwaku debate and now seeing this, im very impressed how you have grown in patience. For me the debate was 100 percent over once he, Travis admitted God couldn't even speak audibly to a crowd and hold them all accountable to what he said.
In my second debate with Kwaku, my cross-examination with Kwaku was awful. I was not exhibiting patience.
This was really painful to watch. The arrogance of this man was unbelievable! Good for you for keeping your temper! Pride comes before a fall and his fall will be swift and painful. Really sad!
Aaron is definitely casting pearls before swine.
He was a surprise guest at a meeting I was invited to by some LDS missionaries. "Insolent" is possibly the softest word you could have used. I was not nearly as patient as you. Good job, brother.
Me either when he was a surprise guest with my visit with missionaries. I was way less patient.
Great work Aaron. He’s a piece of work
This guy is the epitome of arrogance and unwillingness to have an honest conversation. Great patience Aaron - I would say it's generally not worth engaging persons like this however the video itself does have use to help others have awareness and to be prepared for such an encounter.
The last comment in the video was a quite the mic drop. At first to be completely honest I got a good laugh, but the reality is that this LDS person needs a ton of prayer.
Yeah, according to this guy, we can't know what anything means or ever did mean.
Aaron operated with great self control, love, peace, patience, long suffering….. this is an excellent example of how we must interact with people. His calm straight forward gracious disposition allowed for this exchange to continue in an informative, helpful manner for all who view this. This LDS man was striving to frustrate to overwhelm and overcome Aaron in discussion. Instead he magnified his own dishonesty and portrayed LDS views as discombobulated, irrational and indefensible. Sometime God orchestrates the conversation not so much for the one you’re speaking with, but rather for the audience who observes. Thanks for the Godly and seasoned example to the rest of us laboring in the fields of souls.
Why do 80+% of LDS persons that leave the church move into atheism or agnosticism? One significant aspect is because of LDS' tearing down of the Bible's authority. They need to do this in attempt to maneuver and shoehorn LDS teachings, however this builds in an untrusting and cynical perspective regarding the Bible. Once their trust in the LDS church is (rightfully) broken, the distrust of the Bible remains and is a significant hurdle for turning to the true Jesus.
Well said
It is very interesting looking at the way in which you present your arguments for objective truth as opposed to the way Travis does. He interacts with you in a way that is cold and calculating with the goal of winning a fight solely on biblical knowledge.
However, the way in which you interact with him demonstrates that you are trying to reach him and not fight him. Much respect for that
Pearls before swine indeed
Aaron understands classic LDS theology better than man it hat. Problem is LDS doctrine is shifting sand. Mormonism historically clearly taught in Priesthood and Sunday School manuals as part of the Law of Eternal Progression that the Father God was once a man, who progressed to become God. Man in hat either has never studied the LDS manuals of the 70’s and 80’s and doesnt understand historical LDS teachings, or simply disagrees with his own church historical doctrine. However, it’s my opinion that man in hat actually knows the LDS church taught such nonsense that God “progressed”, but denies it because he is embarrassed of the doctrine.
Ya he clearly doesn’t. In the first 5 minutes he is trying to hold Lds to sola scriptura, which is definitely not a doctrine of the church. He’s missing the most basic pieces and trying to act like an authority
I love God, and I love the Book of Mormon. Read it!
Jesus Christ the Son of God told Nicodemus. “Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God” We were all once like this walking blindly in our own flesh. Travis cannot see nor can he hear. We know who is blinding him from the truth. Pray that he would be granted repentance unto salvation.
I noticed Travis is extremely disingenuous in that his main tactic is to rapid-fire question after question, cutting the other off mid-sentence when they are presenting points-almost never in a genuine clarifying sense; and he repeats this often when he should be presenting his side of the argument…he rapid fires questions as a way to deflect having to make positive claims or further the conversation.
In every instance, his tactics are to shut the other person down, rather than foster dialogue and inquiry.
He also arrogantly presents his understanding as THE CORRECT understanding of Mormonism-with no hint of humility that this is his opinion as much as any other LDS.
He flat out accused many Mormons of being lazy. He’s dishonest, hyper-aggressive and defensive. His posture is rife with tenseness. And he’s never listening to comprehend-only to make the other look stupid.
My question is... What will the Mormons think when the next false prophet in the future rises up, and proclaims that all beliefs and creeds about God are perverted because of this new prophet's received revelation? Joseph Smith 2.0 - coming soon
The standard by which everything is measured, must be God's unperverted word. "Thy Word is truth."
Oh, they haven't stopped popping up. Even in our own church, they're are false prophets everywhere.
I'll tell you how I avoid them, though; daily scripture study and prayer. When you seek God, He will reveal Himself to you.
It is harder to be led astray when you are immersed in the things of God.
@@Misa_Susaki I completely agree : )
1:56:01 "It's starting to be pearls before swine." It was that from the beginning.
I love watching your discussions Aaron. You’re a great example of how to give truth with gentleness and respect. And the content is helpful in thinking through how to discuss topics with Mormon family members. I will be praying for God to show this man His mercy and Grace. Please put out more content like this.
This LDS apologist denied so much stuff, saying the church doesn’t practice things that it does. Miracle of Forgiveness was standard reading for those of us that got called to repentance by a LDS bishop. Then to say LDS doesn’t have a merit system is bull. That is the whole multiple kingdoms with multiple levels in the kingdoms. Apologists that just practice laying down blocks rather than laying down facts are not doing their church any favors.
Here’s an even better analogy to forgiveness being constant during sin: a doctor doesn’t cut off a patient for healing too slowly.
LDS theology is impossible to pinpoint. The LDS theology will be changed and moved around as it fits for the best.
It’s impossible to pinpoint if you don’t actually learn what it is. Protestants just pick bits and pieces but never try to understand the whole so they end up making meaningless arguments about things that Lds people don’t actually care about. As an Lds person watching this, talking about Bruce mcconkie and excimmunicating those that are gay married is just totally irrelevant to us. This guy doesn’t know the very basics of Lds doctrine to start an argument in the right place
Give examples please.
I commend you for your patience, Aaron. As a former Mormon, I know how often the verse from the BOM “the spirit of contention is of the devil” was used in any type of heated discussion. It is a verse that is used constantly against people they disagree with, but when it comes to themselves, they do not apply the same amount of criticism.
Gaslighting this dude has zero intellectual dishonesty and is saying whatever to be right instead of honest
I agree that he has “zero intellectual dishonesty”
28:55 He’s such a common Mormon. He can argue any point without giving any doctrine. Arguing God had to have the “Miracle of Forgiveness” in the 1950’s to “speak to the people” but now it has been discontinued is rich. 😂
I thought it was so sad that his idea of sanctification and forgiveness was so rooted in behavior modification instead in a genuine abiding in Christ or empowering by the Spirit. Also really interesting that talking about your daughters didn't resonate at all considering how much mormons compare heavenly father to an earthly father.
What was this meeting again? Five or six protestants on one latter-day saint?
Maybe cool it with the cynicism? There were four LDS apologists (using the term loosely), and probably a dozen Christians scattered around the four corners of the intersection, busy talking to other people or handing out tracts.
@@AaronShafovaloff1don’t act for a second that you guys aren’t doing what you’re doing. You go around trying to dissuade people from their beliefs and gaslight them. You claim it’s part of your mission but you guys are doing more harm than good despite what you think. Why don’t you take a note out of our book and do it respectfully. If people are interested, they’ll talk to you if not, move on. The reason Travis engaged you is because he knows exactly what you’re up to. You come across as harmless and friendly but you’re bent on telling people things like “you believe in a false Jesus etc”. Get out of here, man. The audacity. So you can call me cynical, but I’m stating facts like Travis. Facts that you’ll most certainly have a problem with and try to debunk or explain away. Look at you guys. Using us for clicks, money and attention. You can’t help but pick on Latterday Saints and then act like you’re the victim. What a joke, dude.
I invite you to come talk to us peacefully. We are overt: We teach the Biblical Jesus of historic, universal Christianity, and of the free grace of the gospel, and call all to repent of belonging to any other religion, including Mormonism. We want you to join Christians and even the angels in directly worshipping Jesus. You can witness for yourself our pattern of engagement, our respect, and our courtesy. God bless!
I watched numerous discussions with Mormons and had several myself (with missionaries). Not one of them has ever denied Aaron's understanding of the King Follet Discourse. This guy is providing a novel approach to Mormon theology and acting like no one else truly understands the doctrine.
I’m an ex Mormon and agree with this statement.
Aaron got schooled 😂
The key word here is apostasy. Many practices of members that are deviant in the eyes of God are not called apostasy. There is also an issue was this deviant lifestyle something done before baptism? If a member of the church is inactive generally the stake presidents will tell bishops not to have a disciplinary council for the member.
I am so tempted to say that Travis is a jerk. But then.. that would make me a jerk so I won't say it.
This man in the hat seems demon-possessed. You sir have the patience of a saint!
Is there a point t where I can fast forward to do wherein Hat Man becomes less annoying? What a piece of work!
Thanks for posting. Frustrating to watch. While I don’t believe either side, I can understand the “insolent Mormon’s” thinking and argumentative nature from when I was Mormon. It is pretty embarrassing to see how unwilling he is to listen or to have a real discussion. I appreciate Aaron trying to have a respectful discussion and trying to talk through the points.
48:58 Logic would tell you that God cannot sin. Sin is when you have a desire or action that is contray to the laws of God. God cannot act contrary to himself
59:59 now all human texts are flawed. But God will magically tell you what is right. Isn’t that what Kimball claimed in Miracle of Forgiveness?
Yeah this guy definitely does not represent us. Thanks for pointing that out lol
What if I told you he currently has a massive influence on currently serving Missionaries & RM's, would that be a problem in your eyes?
The LDS guy ate your lunch, dude. He said clearly that they operate with apostles at the head, and they can (attempt to) control their church as they wish. If you want a realistic discussion of disputed texts, you should go to the UCC, the Episcopal Church, the Community of Christ (from the LDS tradition), or many others. These antiquated, uninformed opinions are harder and harder to defend, even when you're debating someone from LDS church which has been historically anti-gay marriage. Pathetic attempt.
That 1) you personally support same-sex marriage, and 2) agree with churches (including the LDS Church) that no longer consider same-sex marriage to be act of apostasy, and 3) construe Travis to be a victor, are all related here.
The adoption analogy does not work. Travis is totally correct about the transformative process .
Hello Travis. Welcome!
Aaron, I think you and Apologia probably posted this because you're banking on everyone seeing Travis as the deranged angry Mormon with no chill and you as calm, cool, and collected. But strip away the tone policing and Travis has some really good points and his criticisms of you are valid.
Anyone who doesn't let Travis's abrasive personality get in the way of their brain will see that Travis made some very cogent points that you had trouble answering.
Jacob, you’re of course welcome to give specifics of good arguments/points you thought were made.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 no need to repeat that here. People can watch the video and judge for themselves. Have a good Sunday.
And what are those points Jacob?
Let me at least agree with you in principle here: it’s a good discipline to consider cogent points even when a speaker is abrasive. I have been there on the other side. In my second debate with Kwaku I became caustic.
Jacob, I’d invite you to highlight even just one point. God bless.
59:00
You guys just don’t like the fact that he stood up for his beliefs and made you guys look bad in the process.
We actually don't mind if when Mormons stand up for their beliefs - we prefer it! It shows a principled love for the truth and a care for the substance of things. It provides a wonderful ground for conversation.
In the case of Travis, however, his mode seems to be more of rhetorical steamrolling, which resists an exchange of extended, substantial thoughts, and disallows either party to truly make a case for their beliefs.
It honestly sounds like the pro-Travis commenters are more impressed with rhetorical aggression, whereas the Christian commenters are more focused on the fruits of the Spirit and the attempted substance of conversation.
Sincerely,
53:31 This guy would not say any of this with Mormon leader there. 😂 His disparagement of the Bible whenever convenient is hilarious, considering the origins of the Book of Mormon.
38:20 He knows the Sermon. But wants to provide his “context”. It’s better than Lorenzo’s. 😂
Why don’t you guys start calling us latter-day Saints instead of Mormons? oh wait, it’s because you don’t respect us.
Most of the time it’s just easier to use two syllables. It’s not out of disrespect.
There are also plenty who still don’t mind being called Mormons. This was culturally acceptable only years ago, and it is still ingrained. The abrupt change is ecclesiastical, not entirely cultural.
We talk to Latter-day Saints (I don’t mind using the title in the right context) regularly. It’s actually rare to hear objections over the shorthand "Mormon."
Compare the insistence on using false pronouns. It’s not kind to insist that people violate their conscience; we’d rather not dignify a misnomer. We don’t believe you are of the Church. We don't believe you are saints. We don’t believe you are true members of the Church of Jesus Christ, properly speaking.
So we have to evaluate whether we’re using a term as a neutral title, or if it functions as a spiritually significant descriptor. When a term begins to function more as the latter, we reach for other designations.
Imagine if we insisted that you called us “members of the holy (c)atholic Church of Jesus Christ, the communion of saints, who alone truly have the one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, one body, and one Spirit,” and then were offended when you opted instead for “evangelical” or “baptist” or “born agains.”
Finally, the material we present isn’t exclusively relevant to members of the mainstream LDS Church. It’s relevant to a whole number of sects of Mormonism, or the larger Latter-day Saint movement, some of whom we interact with on a regular basis.
If it offends you in the midst of a conversation, we can settle on another brief term. But it’s better that we discuss matters of substance than that we get offended by the innocent use of shorthand.
Grace and peace.
@@AaronShafovaloff1 Wow! what a superb reply!
Sorry Aaron but you took an L on this one
Not a contest.
😂. I would have loved to bring up Adam-God with this guy.
53:00 I can guarantee that this guy has not studied the Bible. He keeps throwing out open-ended/rhetorical questions that lead to nowhere!
This LDS guy is not truthful at 27:50. The LDS church most definitely teaches that God and Jesus were both once men who became exhalted. in the last 5 years I have spoken with 3 bishops and 4-5 groups of missionaries. They all teach that God and Jesus were both ordinary men who became exhalted. THAT GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST THE BIBLE, AND IS PROBLEMATIC FOR THE MORMON CHURCH!
There is tons of other LDS scripture that teaches this! This guy adds a lot of his personal feelings that goes against what is written in LDS history.
Lots of LDS scripter that God had a father, Gods father had a father into infinity!
Pure Idiocy!