So, I've noticed a few comments from people who have completely misunderstood the point of the story at the beginning, and that's probably because I didn't explain it well. I'll try to clarify with some extra context. To begin, that exchange took place a long time ago. My wife and I were newlyweds, living in our first rental (yes, the image I portrayed was a joke). So, I was a similar age to the missionaries who I invited in. The reason I tell that story is because it stands out sharply in my memory as an endearing experience and one I was grateful to witness. Secondly, because, it set my expectations for what was to come. Initially, I assumed that they were trained instructors who could teach me about their beliefs, but what I found were two very green young men who had never encountered the kinds of questions I had. I offer that context to point out to my viewers that they, similarly, shouldn't assume that because missionaries can't answer their questions, that there are no answers. I wasn't trying to dunk on them or say, this is how you know Mormons are naive/stupid. What struck me about the missionary's reaction wasn't that he hadn't seen this painting before. His reaction was far more profound than that. He stood their fixed as if he had been transported to an alien world - as if he was having a religious experience (which I think he was). That's what was so memorable about it - he was literally awestruck by it. And pay attention to what he said. He said, "I've never seen _anything like this_ before." Not just, "I've never seen this painting," but, "I've never seen ANYTHING LIKE IT." Now if I asked you to tell me what you think are the most famous paintings ever made, even if you couldn't name them, Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescos would probably come to mind. This missionary was transported by a work because it was utterly foreign to his visual experience. It's like he had never seen a renaissance painting, of any kind. I got to witness someone view it for the first time with nothing to compare it to and it was so moving to him that nothing else seemed to matter. That was my takeaway and I felt like it was a story worth telling because it was so impactful on me, not because it made me think less of Mormons, but because I was witnessing someone having a profound spiritual moment, and I was glad to be there to witness it.
Mormon missions can be rough. They aren't usually treated very kindly by people when door knocking and many of their billets are pretty spartan. If you have time invite them in and offer food and drink. Don't be cruel, they are well intentioned. If you can, lead them back to the Church.
@@limoncellosmith7594 I agree. When they have questions, they are just told, “this is true. Believe it”. Something like that. What I like about them is their focus on family, chastity and morals. There are a lot of LDS converts to Catholicism. Not all make it because The “Francis” church contradicts the pre conciliar church. The ones who make it find the Traditional Mass and Traditional Doctrine……which Francis wants to obliterate. We are in scary times God is in charge and He wins as will True Catholic Doctrine, Tridentine Mass and Traditional Form and (Intention - Matter). Which I cannot judge. I only know the form changed. Impossible to judge Intentions…etc
@@limoncellosmith7594man, a few months ago I invited 2 mormon missionaries to my home because I had been interested in their theology since 2018. Pretty cool people, we chatted a little about Bitcoin and other stuff… but when they started preaching… I’d never seen such a mechanical preaching in my entire life. Every line was rehearsed and they even had pauses to complete each other’s phrases. Wow. I wish I could go on and talk about how happy one of them was because he felt that he had finally found the true church and even baptized his (probably already baptized in the Catholic Church) late great-grandfather but I felt so much pity for how brainwashed he was that I simply can’t.
Hey guys. I was a “Mormon” missionary a few years back in Arizona, and I had so many good experiences with Catholics. I feel like you guys are very Christlike, humble, and loving. When I see these types of videos on Protestant channels, the comments are full of hate and vitriol towards us, but I was not surprised to see that most people here are saying to be nice to us, treat missionaries kindly. I love you guys. Side note but Catholics have some of the most beautiful churches and art in Europe that I wish to see for myself one day.
I’m getting married in the most beautiful church that I have ever seen. It takes my breath away every time I step in there for mass. Even if you’re not interesting in converting to Catholicism, just step inside a cathedral once, you definitely feel the presence of God
What I dont understand is why Protestants are the quickest to anger. They are purely Christ-focused. They dont speak on the infinite God much, its mostly Jesus. No Mother Mary, no Sainted Angels, no human saints. Youd think that being so fixated on Jesus they would try the most to emulate him, and be nice to everybody and stay cool-headed. When theyve got internet anonymity, wow, they can really be abrasive.
@@stroopwafelfalafel No way that's awesome! I was in the Gilbert Mission, but I interacted with Tempe Missionaries all the time and loved you guys (Elders and Sisters haha)
We had a joke in our neighborhood about the Mormons and JW’s. They’d work their way down the block but never got farther than #43. There lived a devout Catholic widow, Mrs. Vincenes. Her house was like a shrine, statues, little altars, holy water founts, home thuribles, Rosaries everywhere. She’d invite them in and they’d be there for sometimes hours. They’d leave and never make it to our house, #44, probably because they converted to Catholicism!
If you don’t have time for them, just be kind and polite. In our times, anyone who believes in God automatically deserves respect. And we don’t know what path God has planned for them in the future…
We respect your firm held beliefs. I tend to hold this sentiment as well. Sometimes if people get stuck on disagreements on doctrine it causes contention. I believe the spirit cannot be in such a place and leaves. No one is Enlighted and imo satan wins. It is through the spirit that we can be educated on all things pertaining to God the eternal father and his son Jesus Christ. Certainly, in this time when many have abandoned faith and live worldly ways we should welcome and respect anyone who has desires to follow god even if its not the way we think they should. Much love to you brother for your comment.
Amen, and regardless of Christian variation, those who know the scriptures are blessed with wisdom. Those who live by it are blessed with prosperity. Anything that is virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Its important to remember Mormons are all human beings we are to treat kindly like God would want, just because people are in another denomination or have different beliefs they're still human beings created in the image & likeness by God, we shouldn't look down on people or disrespect them just because they're of different beliefs or backgrounds from us.
@@suem6004 They were "faithful members" who learned the Truth and could not remain LDS. If you had "rabid ex Catholics" on your podcast, all would depend on whether they were telling the truth and not psychotic.
@@michaelbarry6589 ,...If anyone actually learned the truth they would never ever become a catholic. The Godless abomination of catholicism is every bit the Godless abomination that mormonism is.
They did this to me. I was getting into my points that I wanted to discuss and all that he had to say was "I just disagree with you there." I was hoping we would talk about it more, but he did a good job steering the conversation.
After a few discussions with the missionaries, I got a zoom call with the mission president, and we had a two hour conversation, discussing deep doctrinal issues and historical topics.
What's up Brian! My name is Marisa. I am LDS. I was raised in a home with a deep appreciation for many perspectives. So I actively seek out other religions to learn from them. I also attended a liberal arts high school which increased my appreciation for the Great Books and participating in the philosopher's Great Conversation. I dont consider myself an accomplished reader. I cant say that I've read all of Plato and Thomas Aquinas, though I did try. I was only a junior at the time. I should try it again now. Haha. But I do know the value of it. And in being well versed in historical questions and dialogues. Both in philosophy and in religion. I have been dabbling in studying Judeo-Christian history and theology this past year, and I know enough at this point to understand why there are at least some of the deep questions that arise like this that you have asked of the LDS Missionaries. I dont feel educated myself enough yet on these subjects to answer the kind of questions you're asking, as they are very deep, built on a lot of theologically complex historical debates (like does God have a body. If He does, how can He also be eternal, which would go back to a very similar debate about the divinity of Christ at the Council of Nicaea with Arius). At this point I would consider myself a beginner at discussing a topic like that, since I am still learning the details of that debate. But there are other people who might be able to address it better. Whether you ended up agreeing or agreeing to disagree, at least you would have more clarity on the topic, so far as what Latter-day Saints actually believe. If I could recommend someone that you might find interesting, I would recommend Jacob Hansen. He is the creator of the youtube channel Thoughtful Faith. It might be cool to have a conversation with him sometime. Like me, he's an appreciator of both philosophy and religion, and thoroughly enjoys a deep conversation like this. And while I myself am not a catholic, I have been enjoying your channel and learning about the catholic perspective. And your deep philosophical questions. You create beautiful videos with very interesting content and well expressed ideas. p.s. And Brian if I can just add that not only are your videos beautiful, but your faith journey, and your religion. I find great wonder and beauty and have a deep respect for Catholicism. When the dark imagery of the priests were shown in this video, I was thinking of Bishop Barron, and the magnificent love that radiates from him. He truly radiates the LIGHT and LOVE of Christ. I love that man. I consider him a profound blessing. Along with all the other priests that pray on behalf of the healing and protection of the whole world! ♥🙏🌎
@marisajohnson2958 This was a very nice comment. Mormons are very nice people, the problem is the very core of your religion is false, and the founder of course a fraud. I am not seeking to be uncharitable, I am simply telling you the truth. The more you submerge yourself in history, the more you will understand this to be the case and that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church founded by Christ Himself, and that the Great Apostasy was a lie. I pray you convert to the fullness of the faith of Christianity which is Catholicism. Hansen should do the same.
I'd love if Brian would have a conversation with someone like Jacob Hansen or Robert Boylan, etc. That could help clear up some misunderstandings about LDS belief in this video (eg, 1. LDS does not believe in creation ex nihilo - "the elements are eternal"; 2. LDS believe many "plain and precious" parts of holy scripture were lost and not included by those who compiled the bible - mistranslations exist - it's not infallible... though mostly true and still revered as containing the word of God; 3. Apostasy did occur after death of the apostles, but corruption of truth was more gradual and certainly there were still many good people in the remaining church (the images of evil priests were a bit over the top); 4. technically, the principle of plural marriage remains doctrinal (ie, God hasn't changed it), but is not currently commanded or permitted. LDS have scriptural basis for this practice being something that has had a time and place and not always permitted - BofM Jacob 2:30, see also OT prophets, Abraham and Jacob). I'm not really interested in a debate about different interpretations of the bible - that's been done ad nauseam elsewhere - I'd be far more interested in seeing a respectful discussion. Let both lay out their beliefs ask questions, have different conclusions, but maybe talk more about the values we have in common, how we can work toward common goals - that's why I subscribed to Brian's channel long. He says a lot that I agree with and appreciate.
@@JohnAlbertRigali Guess that's the case for everyone. But the closer we come to Christ, the more we reflect Him, and that is what I see Bishop Barron doing. A man who spends all day every day testifying of the Love of God. An entire life time selflessly dedicated to Him. Is there anything more beautiful?
I have two granddaughters currently serving on missions. Please be kind to them! My husband and were not raised in church and we didn’t raise our kids in church either. Our son got a degree in history with a religious studies minor at UC Davis, but he fell in love with a sweet Mormon girl, and bought it all hook line and sinker. Our 7 grandkids were all homeschooled and are just the best kids. I’m so afraid for my sweet 19yo to be going to the Bible Belt next week and what kind of reception she will have. BTW my husband and I took the Mormon lessons and through their prayers came to Christ - but we chose the Catholic Church instead.
I lived in Utah for three years and have fond memories. I found LDS to be some of the nicest people I've met. It's not my religion, either, but I do try to at least return the kindness whenever I cross paths with their missionaries.
I don't normally comment, but as a convert to the church and someone who is going to be serving a mission very soon, you’ve caught my attention! I appreciate how open and respecful you have been, and your questions have given me a lot to think about. The LDS church has some nasty history where there are things that happened that I still am not okay with. However, I am doing the best I can right now to prepare myself for what is to come so seeing this was a big help! If we can have more productive conversations like this, the world will be a better place. Thank you for this. God bless 🙏❤
My mother always has Jehovah witnesses in for a polite discussion whenever they come knocking. She hasn't been able to convert them to the one true faith yet, but give her some more time and she'll get 'em.
@@margokupelian344 Careful with that mindset, remember that any stranger you turn away could just as easily be Jesus. I don't remember offhand but I believe there is even a verse about this very idea.
The only time we had LDS visit, we ended up talking about the Catechism of the Catholic Church - it was only a few years since it was published, but they hadn't heard of it before and they sounded pretty impressed that we were that organised.
@@suem6004 They brought a flip book with an illustrated summary of the Mormon faith. They came well prepared - I think it's safe to say that the main aim of the visit was to discuss the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Definitely not a one way discussion. But if you do come to my home I think it only fair that we discuss some Catholic teachings.
Thank you for your respect, I wish I was there as a missionary to help. I am a Latter Day Saint who is learning about other denominations including catholicism. I do say in my understanding the Apostacy was about the priesthood, if there is no Apostles then you have no priesthood.
Be kind to the missionaries. I live in a building with Mormon missionary kids. They are sweet. I am a Catholic. I love Mormons, Shike, Hindu, Jews and everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. It is my job to be kind, loving and helpful. Catholics are to minister to the sick and help the poor. Be nice to Mormon missionarys! God is watching. I live in ghetto East Oakland. NO ONE DARES bother the missionaries! God will rain hell on us if something happens to them! God bless the Mormon missionarys. Lord, always protect them.❤🙏
Hello! I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I finished my mission about two months ago. I spent 8 months as a proselytizing missionary in Arizona, then for health reasons, I spent the next 16 months as a service missionary in my home town in Colorado. I like this video, and I think there's a lot of interesting things to talk about here. First, how sheltered many missionaries (and members of the church in general) are from diverse art/ideas/theology. I go to BYU, and in my religion class yesterday, the professor showed us six different paintings of Jesus and asked everyone which one they would want in their home. Almost everyone wanted paintings 2, 3, and 6, while almost no one wanted paintings 1, 4, and 5. The professor then said that you could go to any Christian university and get the opposite result. He then pointed out that paintings 2, 3, and 6 depicted the Savior’s suffering in Gethsemane, while 1, 4, and 5 depicted His crucifixion on Calvary. The professor then pulled up John 15:13, where the Lord himself says that dying for one’s friends is the greatest act of love. My professor’s point was that we as members of the church should have a greater appreciation for the Savior’s death, but my takeaway was that we wouldn’t be in this situation if we spent more time with people outside our religion. I didn’t know that our belief in premortal life was unique until I taught it to someone and they said “Wow! That makes so much sense!”. I didn’t know what the Nicene creed was until lunch in highschool when my friend told me that I wasn’t Christian because my beliefs contradicted it. One of my missionary companions once couldn’t understand that the person we were talking to was atheistic: he just kept asking, “so which God do you believe in?”. You mentioned the logical problems that arise from believing that God has a physical body of flesh and bone. The missionaries probably didn’t have an answer because they never came across the question because we believe that God organized the world from unorganized matter, not ex nihilo. Second, the limited understanding many missionaries have of church doctrine/scripture/their own beliefs. I think it’s important to recognize how many missionaries are extremely young in their own faith. I have been an active member of the church for my entire life, but until I moved to college, I was just following my parents’ example. I began my personal spiritual journey/gained a testimony of Jesus Christ in 2022. That was eight months before I began my mission. Some missionaries don’t even have the luxury of an entire childhood of Sunday school to look back on, like I have. As a missionary, I helped teach a 17 year old kid named Jace. He was baptized in March 2023. He baptized his friend in December 2023. He began his mission in Kentucky in March 2024. He only had one year (during his transition to adulthood, which is a hectic time for anyone) to explore his own beliefs before he went out to teach others. I had a total of three weeks of formal training (one week online and two weeks in person) at the start of my mission before I was sent out to teach. That’s not enough time to become fully versed in theology, scripture, debate, the history of thought, etc. So, we were taught to testify of the simple fundamental truths we did know. I told myself that my role was to plant seeds of truth and pray that the Holy Spirit testified of their truthfulness to peoples’ hearts and minds. If they were receptive to the Spirit and if the conditions were just right, they would begin their own spiritual journeys. Third, how many contradictions exist in the missionary’s beliefs, and the doctrinal history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Talking about contradictions in scripture and the teachings of modern prophets like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (who we believe have the authority to write scripture), makes people really uncomfortable. It puts the validity of your entire belief system on the line. I hope that everyone wrestles with these contradictions at some point in their lives. Here’s how I reconcile the contradictions, and I can’t emphasize enough that my beliefs don’t necessarily reflect official church doctrine: The scriptures, including the Bible and Book of Mormon, aren’t perfect; prophets and their teachings don’t always perfectly represent the will of God; and the Lord, who is the only perfect being, sometimes gives us different directions at different times. I don’t think that the people who wrote the Bible did it perfectly. I don’t think that the people who decided on the books in the biblical canon were evil, but I don’t think they did a perfect job either. I don’t think any translation of the Bible into English is perfect (including Joseph Smith’s). The Book of Mormon itself says multiple times that while the writers did their best and couldn’t find any faults, if any faults are found, know that they’re the faults of men, not of God. I don’t think that the teachings of any prophet, ancient or modern (especially Brigham Young), were perfect. I think that revelation is a difficult process. I think everyone is influenced by the world they’re trying to teach. I think that God uses imperfect tools to accomplish His perfect work. Most importantly, I think that despite their faults, the scriptures do contain the word of God, prophets are the Lord’s messengers, and following them will lead me to Jesus Christ. Anyway, I’ve been procrastinating on my chemistry homework for about two hours now, so I should get to work.
Several years ago, two Mormon missionary girls (college-aged) came to my door and asked if I wanted to talk. I told them I study apologetics and have specifically looked into Mormonism so it's most likely a conversation that would not be fruitful. They said they would like to talk about it. I again told them that it was not something they would enjoy. They insisted. Well, okay… After about 15 minutes, I wondered why they were doing mission work when it was clear they knew very little about Mormonism. They didn't know some of their most basic beliefs. They weren't aware of much of their history. I gave them more chances to retreat, but they just kept falling back to what seemed to be a script. So I continued. Eventually, they realized they weren't making progress and settled for leaving me a copy of the Book of Mormon (I didn't have a print copy so I was happy to take it). I've had similar conversations with a couple of Mormon women online and they too were woefully ignorant of the religion to which they hold so passionately. I don't understand that at all. I was in a Starbucks a few weeks ago and two college-age male Mormon missionaries were conversing with what were clearly two well-versed Christians. They were having a respectful but intense conversation. The Mormons did not fair well in that exchange either.
I wonder if Mormons or JW's would like to leave you with literature, if they would accept any from you as well? Or if they are trained to not accept books or writings from the people they cold call.
I was a Mormon missionary and received no instruction about taking or not taking materials from other faiths. I personally accepted a copy of the Quran and Protestant pamphlets from individuals I spoke to.
@@patrickvalentino600 As a former JW, they do not read anything you send them. However, they will gladly spam you with articles and videos from their website with their interpretations on various subject matters. They are told to be careful reading things outside of their own website as it contains "apostate" information lol. Once I studied church history, it was clear to me that a great apostasy right after Christ's death was just silly.
Woefully ignorant Mormons are no different to woefully ignorant Catholics. The difference really is that we don't send them out to evangelize others or at least I don't think we do.
The only time I ever encountered door-knockers, (not sure if they were Jehovahs witnesses or Mormons) I was 3, and answered the door completely naked. I’m sure it’s unrelated, but I find it funny how our home has never been visited by missionaries a single time since then.
It's impressive that you have a memory of you being 3 y/o and answering a door naked. Your comment led me to Google: " What is the earliest age a child can remember?"
I have found that our LDS brothers and sisters are wonderful people. I am a practicing Roman Catholic that has many LDS friends. I've had many meetings with the local missionaries, and they have not proselytized. We talked about Jesus, his atonement and our lives. We have more in common with LDS members than we do evangelicals in my opinion.
@@tatianasouza2361You are heretical suggesting a second Jesus could even exist. The Judaizers too were nativists ‘our Jesus is better than your gentile Jesus”! Slander, bigotry, hatred, ignorance you show has nothing to do with Jesus.
Indeed. I am working on a theology flow chart and indeed the restoration (not reformation) returned a lot of Catholic teachings. By the same token Protestants are in left field theologically to everyone.
You may have the same attitude as them regarding faith, but your theology is vastly different. At least Protestants believe in the Holy Trinity. Mormons don't. This is huge, as in, they're not even the same religion.
I think Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints described the missionaries very well. He said, "They are more like tour guides." Missionaries are often young, just out of school, and don't really know everything. They are simply going around, providing service to others, and sharing the opportunity to look into The LDS church. If you want to debate doctrine, you'd have a better time talking to someone with more authority or someone who's done more studies.
If you want the Lord's own words, they are among the "weak things of the world", the "unlearned and despised", called to "thresh the nations" (Doctrine and Covenants 35:13).
I lived in Salt Lake City for the first six months of 1993 at the end of my neurosurgery residency to study pediatric neurosurgery at the Primary Children’s Medical Center. The people living there were all charitable and hard working. The few times they knocked on my door, I just told them I was baptized and raised Catholic. They didn’t feel the need to convert me and were very polite and left me be. The same has happened here in my Indiana home now, just one or two times. Exactly the same reaction. They didn’t even want to leave me any literature. One thing of which I have no doubt is that God will lead them home to Catholicism if they truly love Him with all their heart.
Why would God need to lead Mormons home to Catholicism? We do love God with all our heart, that's why we keep the commandments including the abstinence from idolatry that is so prevalent in the Catholic church.
@@koolxhades I am happy to do a response video. Quite easy to respond. Missionaries have no time to debate. Did Peter not knowing Greek or Greek philosophers not have the truth? A mere fisherman.
Ditto to the other commenter. All these questions are extremely answerable. The calculus u have to address is: 1) are they listening 2)is it worth my time 3)what are the competing opportunities id be turning down. In anyone’s experience, a logical argument around a discussion of faith is an absolute waste of precious time.
This was such a good video. My BF is mormon and he's currently in his mission. I really hope people confront him with these questions. Since he left, I've basically gone down a rabbit hole and found every piece of evidence that disproved mormonism and proven Catholicism. Things that literally can't be refuted such as geographical history. He is such a good soul, but also so young and clearly being indoctrinated into this. I'm definitely adding these points into my back pocket in case the need arises. I know these are things he can't answer. Any question I've ever had towards Catholicism had simple answers and all made sense. I'm actually gonna be starting OCIA soon because of this. The thing about the supposed apostacy yet still using the bible which was compiled after this supposed apostacy literally was a nail in the coffin, and I hope he realizes it. I would always joke with him about how as Catholics, we're the OGs and literally compiled the bible and I've told him the story how Martin Luther removed many books from it, which is what the KJV is based on. Hopefully he puts two and two together soon. I have solid confirmation for God that he will come home early and eventually find the truth, but forgive me for being a little impatient lol.
It's just SOOOO frustrating reading comments like yours. Here I studied, pondered and prayed a long time to learn why I should JOIN the Mormon church, and then I see tons of comments online for the past 20 years of people who say just the opposite!
The KJV actually still had the deuterocanonical books in it. The bible Joseph Smith used was the full bible containing 80 books. You can still find KJV translations of the full bible, but they are hard to find. It is easier to find a KJV copy of the apocrypha.
I can’t address everything you critiqued, but I would like to respond to your first about the nature of God. First I want to say that I have yet to hear a critique of LDS theology that was purely biblical, and not based in creeds. In the Hebrew, Genesis 1:1-2 does not say that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing, but rather a better translation is that in the beginning such where the conditions when God created our heaven and earth. In other words, when God created the heaven and the earth, it was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. There is no biblical creation Ex Nihilo, it’s just not there. Furthermore, the translation of “God” is from Elohim, which is plural and referring to a council of gods, multiple gods, involved in the creation, and which will then be referred to throughout the Hebrew Bible. As far as God having a body: why would we, from reading the Bible, believe otherwise? Why are one or two verses of scripture given more weight than the MANY verses that clearly state God has a body? The common interpretation of “God is spirit” is lazy, and no different than if I was to say that we must be God, because Jesus prayed that we would become one with God as He and God are one (a verse that is clearly not saying that God and Jesus Christ are literally the same being).
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I’d like to address some of the points you’ve raised from a Catholic viewpoint. Creation Ex Nihilo: The Catholic Church holds that God created the universe out of nothing (ex nihilo). This belief is supported by both Scripture and Tradition. While Genesis 1:1-2 describes the earth as “formless and void,” it does not contradict the doctrine of creation ex nihilo. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 296) affirms, “God creates freely ‘out of nothing.’” Additionally, 2 Maccabees 7:28 states, “God did not make them out of things that existed,” which supports this doctrine. Elohim: The term “Elohim” is indeed a plural form in Hebrew, but in the context of Genesis 1:1, it is understood as a “plural of majesty” or “plural of intensity,” emphasizing the greatness and majesty of the one true God. The Catholic Church believes in monotheism, as stated in the Nicene Creed: “We believe in one God.” God’s Nature and Physical Form: The Catholic Church teaches that God is spirit and does not have a physical body. This is based on passages such as John 4:24, where Jesus says, “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” Descriptions of God having a body in the Old Testament are understood metaphorically, helping humans relate to divine actions. The Church Fathers, including St. Augustine, emphasized God’s incorporeal nature. Jesus’ Prayer for Unity: When Jesus prayed for his followers to be one as He and the Father are one (John 17:21), He was referring to spiritual unity and communion, not a literal merging of beings. The Catholic Church interprets this as a call for unity in faith and love among believers, reflecting the unity of the Trinity. I hope this provides a clear understanding of the Catholic perspective. If you have any further questions or would like to discuss more, please feel free to ask. I hope this helps! Let me know if there’s anything else you’d like to discuss.
@@JohnLovesMary Out of curiosity: Elohim is plural, then it says "God is Spirit"... not a spirit, but spirit as in a state of being? The word god is more of a title than a name, always has been in every human understanding, which is why we capitalize God when talking about the Supreme Deity or other respects and use the word god when discussing beings attributed to an element. Does it not make sense then, given Hebrew and the way human's understanding bastardizes original truths, that there are multiple "gods" or creators with multiple forms or layers? Different skills or attributes for creation, joined together in purpose under the title God? If the original truth is that there is a team where everyone on it refers to their title as God, it makes sense that every early religion would copy that and make pantheons... which they did. (Or the belief that everything with mortal flesh also has a spirit, and therefore that life force is a god in it's own rite, like Shintoism and some amount of Buddhism proclaim.) Then mass confusion over the spirit designated to take mortal life and be sacrificed for us claiming the same title across the Old Testament, resulting in Israel's unique monotheism because they worshipped a title and the name of one, though described many with the same title. The Trinity describes a being that is part divine, part transcended human, part spirit, in varying states that contradict itself because the Nicene Creed and politics needed man to be below God and God to be unreachable. But the Bible teaches that humans are already body and spirit, as well as describing at Christ's baptism that there were three distinct beings in the Father's voice from heaven, Christ in the flesh, and the Spirit in the form of a dove. It teaches that we will be reunited with our bodies, as Christ was. What happened to His body if He is not using it? And if His body became spirit, as the "God is Spirit" claims, are perfected bodies simply bodies that are purified spiritually with spirit qualities? The Holy Spirit is God, right? Then why was it separate from the voice? Why separate from Christ? Why would Christ need a body at all to sacrifice if the only state of being needed is "spirit"? What is the official teachings on resurrection then, and how does it mesh with the example Christ gave when He ascended? With the idea of Elohim being plural, and the name of the OT god given as Jehovah, it makes sense to me then that Christ ascended and joined a divine, multifaceted group of creators rather than abandoning His perfected body that He used well after death. Whether that be a team of many that specialize like the pagans organize their mythos, or a Father and Son and Spirit business venture, it just makes sense given what I know from the Bible that God the Father nor the resurrected Christ is not simply a spirit, but the Holy Spirit covers those tasks and why He remains without a body. That Jehovah was the name of the spirit of the Son of God before he was given an earthly name with His mortal body that the telephone game across languages turned into Jesus, and not the name of the divine overseer/ Father or Spirit. That the Father God is a purified body with the qualities of spirit but refrains from interacting with mortals on our test, that the Son God was born of Mary and resurrected with his purified body and set the example for us to follow, that the Spirit God remains without a body so He many lead and guide and reveal to us all without the confines of a body. Three individuals all part of the same God Team under the same title of God, or a plural Elohim, united on the purpose of redeeming mankind for those of us who can and do bridle our passions and qualify for grace. Besides, how could the Trinity cut part of itself out in order to be Jesus for a life? The other parts were still present in the voice from heaven saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," and simultaneously visible among the crowd in the form of a dove. Three separate beings with three separate states of being, and accessibility to mankind on our multifaceted test in overcoming mortal temptation. Thoughts? Or Biblical corrections? It's been a bit since I've read any holy writings of any sort, but I spent a fair amount of time pondering these truths across and after the cover to cover of the Bible.
Hey Brian thanks for the video. I too have had my conversations with Mormon people some here at my house others out in salt lake where I go skiing from time to time. The points of information you've given in those video will be very helpful to me when talking with other Mormons and evangelizing to them as a Catholic. I would like to let you know how grateful I am for you and your videos for you have given me many mediums and options and evangelization tools. Keep up the good work and God bless you and your family.
Why would you want to evangelize to us?? Here I spent SO LONG learning about the LDS church, wanting to join it, and you would want to take me away from it?? It's just so frustrating.
@@Cindybin46Sadly, you have been sold a lie, and we Catholics want you to know the truth as Jesus would, too. I wrote this to someone else, but I hope you’ll read it and see why your’s is just a manmade religion. Consider reading some of the Fathers I wrote about which should make you realize that the Catholic Christian Church has been teaching Christ’s truth from the beginning and there never was a major apostasy from the faith at the time Mormons say there was. He doesn’t have to, as that was settled when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors. ”You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matthew 16:18-19) Here Jesus gives the keys to Peter and says that whatever Peter decides is what Heaven decides, and he says he will protect his Church from Satan. We need to know which Church this is, as Jesus prayed in the garden that we would all be one, not many. “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1Timothy 3:15) Notice St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what Church is it? Paul instructed the faithful to teach people who would be able to teach others, passing on the one, true faith of Jesus. “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2) This faith, this Catholic religion, has been passed on from Jesus’s teachings through the Apostles, and all the way to the current day, uninterrupted. Paul warned the Galatians not to be swayed by new false doctrines. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8-9) The Mormon religion is one of these new religions with false doctrines, because angels supposedly came down in 1820 and told Joseph Smith what to believe, which wasn’t the same as the doctrines the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning, it being the first Christian church. There has never been any major apostasy, like Mormons believe. I suggest you read the Apostolic Fathers, who were authors of early Christian works dating primarily from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, who were known to, or considered to have had personal relationships with the Apostles. They are easy to read because they were written to Then there is another group called the Early Church Fathers, or just Church Fathers, which includes the previous group, but they come after them, from about A.D. 100 to about A.D. 800. You can find an extensive a list of both on newadvent(dot)org. I suggest beginning with the Apostolic Fathers for 2 reasons. “First, they have undisputable apologetic value as witnesses to unwritten apostolic Tradition. Second, they are, for the most part, simple, pastoral men like the apostles and are therefore easy to understand. You don’t need to take a course in Platonic philosophy to make sense of their writings. In fact, many of the documents of this period follow the same basic format as what we’re already used to in the New Testament: pastoral letters and “acts” of the martyrs.” (Excerpt from Catholic Answers) I hope you will read and see how the Church Christ founded was and is the Catholic Church. God bless you. He doesn’t have to, as that was settled when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors. ”You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matthew 16:18-19) Here Jesus gives the keys to Peter and says that whatever Peter decides is what Heaven decides, and he says he will protect his Church from Satan. We need to know which Church this is, as Jesus prayed in the garden that we would all be one, not many. “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1Timothy 3:15) Notice St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what Church is it? Paul instructed the faithful to teach people who would be able to teach others, passing on the one, true faith of Jesus. “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2) This faith, this Catholic religion, has been passed on from Jesus’s teachings through the Apostles, and all the way to the current day, uninterrupted. Paul warned the Galatians not to be swayed by new false doctrines. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8-9) The Mormon religion is one of these new religions with false doctrines, because angels supposedly came down in 1820 and told Joseph Smith what to believe, which wasn’t the same as the doctrines the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning, it being the first Christian church. There has never been any major apostasy, like Mormons believe. I suggest you read the Apostolic Fathers, who were authors of early Christian works dating primarily from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, who were known to, or considered to have had personal relationships with the Apostles. They are easy to read because they were written to Then there is another group called the Early Church Fathers, or just Church Fathers, which includes the previous group, but they come after them, from about A.D. 100 to about A.D. 800. You can find an extensive a list of both on newadvent(dot)org. I suggest beginning with the Apostolic Fathers for 2 reasons. “First, they have undisputable apologetic value as witnesses to unwritten apostolic Tradition. Second, they are, for the most part, simple, pastoral men like the apostles and are therefore easy to understand. You don’t need to take a course in Platonic philosophy to make sense of their writings. In fact, many of the documents of this period follow the same basic format as what we’re already used to in the New Testament: pastoral letters and “acts” of the martyrs.” (Excerpt from Catholic Answers) I hope you will read and see how the Church Christ founded was and is the Catholic Church. God bless you.
9:33 This is the question that the apostles themselves wrestled with, as I'm sure you're aware. They saw the mission of Jesus very differently prior to his death on the cross. Jesus Christ establishing His church was obviously not for nothing. One the gospel,/the teachings of Christ, even though the church's apostolic authority to conduct it was lost, did change the world and we believe that God was still involved with inspiring certain things like the constitution of the United States. So in other words, the church falling away wasn't a "whoopsie daisy" for God. He's all knowing. This was part of the plan. There needed to be a restoration so that "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." (Ephesians 1:10)
Enjoyed listening to you. My friend and I have had many discussions on these subjects. He graduated from monistary with a Doctorate in philosophy and have devoted many years studying philosophy psychology and religion. I have been a member of the LDS Church for sixty years. An understanding of God Himself and His power of creation is challenging for sure. I hope you work it out. Argument is good for only so far.
I’m a Latter-day Saint and I have really enjoyed many of your videos. And I take no offense in hearing your objections to the LDS faith. I’ll attempt to answer your questions. 1. We reject the doctrine of creation ex nihilio. Therefore God is not the creator of the physical universe. God organizes from existing matter, thus bringing order out of chaos. God’s spirit is eternal but His body is part of the material universe. 2. The apostasy was not Christ’s church failing. Christianity made the world a better place. Historian Tom Holland has had a lot to say about this. The Restoration is evidence that the gates of Hell did not prevail. 3. We embrace the KJV bible because we embrace all truth from wherever it comes and don’t believe in a closed cannon. 4. Plural marriage is an exception. Monogamy is the standard. Plural marriage is only a subset of the doctrine eternal marriage. Unlike Catholics, we don’t consider the leaders of our church infallible. So we shouldn’t expect perfect consistency in doctrinal matters. Course corrections happen. The church is lead by God despite the fallibility of those running it.
As to your last point, that’s something these Catholic commentators always get wrong. We believe prophets have the keys to administer the church. That is not the same as treating every statement they make as dogma.
Interesting how Brian is not interested in your explanations of LDS theology. As if he is happier to believe in ignorance than in truth. True scholars would respond to your excellent and concise explanation.
Understand that in general Mormon missionaries are barely out of high school. They are not theologically trained or educated enough to engage on that level.
Brian I wonder if you might tell me what the stain glass window-like soft light is called on your bookshelf to your left? I catches my eye on most of your videos so I’m really interested. Thank you. This video was really helpful.
We really should remember that these Mormon missionaries are 18 or 19-year-old kids just out of high school. They are not trained scholars or apologist. They are merely “tour guides“ for the basic fundamental teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. If you want to have a secular/apologist discussion from someone of the LDS persuasion, you need to actually find someone who is trained in those areas. If I had an 18-year-old Catholic boy coming to my house, and I tried to cross examine him I wouldn’t be surprised if he was showing some level of ignorance. Please be kind.
Brian, thank you for your respectful discourse about your meeting with missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think the utility of our diligent missionaries may not stretch to the sorts of theological discussions you were seeking, I know I would not have been able to satisfy your answers when I was young on a mission. I can put you in touch with many people who would be able to have these conversations with you if you’d like. I’d also say that it isn’t fair to base your understanding of a whole faith’s relationship with Christian art on an individual young man’s experience with that piece of art. I’m from Britain and one of the greatest joys of my life is studying traditional religious art and music (and I would probably say it is more accessible here in Europe), I was recently in Montserrat and it was one of the highlights of my life! These missionaries are excellent young men who have been given a wonderful opportunity to teach and to learn at the primes of their youth!
I’m all for an LDS renaissance of religious art in all forms. I’ve loved Russian sacred choir music for over a decade and seek to incorporate a bit for of that style into our worship. Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, and Sviridov all evoke awe and reverence with their sacred works.
@@forallthesaintspod Makes me wonder at the disappointed Greek and Roman philosophers who wanted to debate but rubes like Peter, James and John were unlearned. Not impressive to the pagans then either
Having lived a a heavily Mormon city, Mesa AZ, for over 10 years, I can confirm LDS kids growing up are largely steered into their own faith circles for socializing. Other than things like school sports, Mormon high school kids are expected to go after school hours to "seminary" which are often right across the street from the public school. Said seminaries are actually pretty light on content, its more for LDS boys and girls to imprint upon each other under adult supervision. A lot like Luther League, but more so. When LDS kids go on their mission , THAT's when they get a crash course in their evangelical sales pitch, and largely, that's what it is. A sales script.. Get them off that script, and they flounder. The most important purpose of LDS missions is not evangelizing never Mormons into LDS. Rather, it's an initiating common experience, much like military service. Get these young adults out of their comfort zones, in often psychological hostile and very different cultures, where really they have no choice but to rely upon their fellow missionaries and local "bishop". It's a very strong reinforcement of cultural cohesion and loyalty, a mild grade "ordeal" that often lasts all their lives, one in which they can share stories about at their local stakes.
@robertlehnert4148 for us in California, it was early morning seminary, it was my favorite part of high school. It's nice being with others who are not doing underage drinking and premarital sex like everyone else is doing. I had one friend who was and is devote Catholic. The rest of the Catholics were Catholics on Good Friday when it got them out of school.
There are some distressing testimonies on RUclips about young missionaries who have to bankroll their own missions and often miss meals due to lack of funds. So it’s probably a good idea to at least offer them a sandwich when they come to your door.
As far as the Bible goes, the LDS believe that the Bible was corrupted during the great apostasy. They still teach from it, but they dont believe that the Bible we have today is inerrant. For the nature of God, they reject many of the things that christians accept about god: ex nihlo creation, creator/creature distinction. They teach that God and Humans are basically the same species, so god isn't ontologically unique. God is simply a more developed human in the same way that you are a more developed version of your children.
I should add that we not only teach from the Bible, but we believe it to be word of God and is part of our canon of scripture so long as it's translated correctly. We use the King James Bible, with added scripture references and summaries and such. We also have the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, or rather, small parts of it, which we also consider scripture, however they do not replace the Bible. We also do not believe the Book of Mormon to be inerrant as it's translated and printed over multiple languages and editions, and we also accept that the original authors may have made human mistakes in writting, this is admitted in the book itself. But for both, we believe them to be the revealed word of God, passed down through generations by God's hand, one way or another.
I am not sure what you mean by God being simply a more developed human.... Um. LDS don't really teach that. Yes God has the same human shape, but he's immortal, powerful, all knowing, and lots of other attributes including glory (glowing like the sun). The Bible in Genesis 1:26, 27 says that we males and females on earth were created to look like the God (the "us") in heaven. We actually believe that there's a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (males and females on earth, males and females in heaven -- the Godhead plus the other male or female appearing beings in heaven). It says in Genesis 1, Let US make man (mankind) in OUR image, male and female. US is plural up in heaven. However, in day to day life, we only address our "Heavenly Father" or Jesus. In Luke 3 it gives one of the accounts of Jesus' genealogy, going backwards in time. In verse 38 it says, "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." God is the father of Adam.
@@mysterypro_music I don't know if you're a member of the Church or not (I am, returned missionary, currently serving in a Bishopric and institute teacher), but allow me to reply to you before people start regurgitating anti-mormon talking points, in case you're not totally familiar with this doctrine. What they are referring to, is the fact that we do teach the concept that when Christ said "I do what I have seen the Father do" (paraphrasing the scripture here), he meant that God the Father had been like Christ once before. Keeping in mind that this is a doctrine that is very barebones. We don't know much about it. It was mostly taught in early Church days, and if there were more in-depth teachings about it, they have been lost to time. But we still do teach it to a degree. Critics of the Church take this teaching out of proportion and out of context. 3 things to keep in mind: 1. We don't believe God is just a regular old human who became God. At best we believe God the Father was a Christ, or a Messiah (where, how, when, we don't know), meaning we take Christ's words (as paraphrased above) literally. So no, we don't believe God was once equal to us, just as much as we don't believe we're equals to Christ. But Christ is equal to God the Father. 2. We don't believe we will become Gods equal to God the Father. We believe we can become (lower case) gods, so to speak, or priests and priestesses, in the Kingdom of God, meaning we will always be subservient to God the Father and Jesus Christ, participating in furthering their work, glory and creation for all eternity. So again, we take Psalm 82:6 literally. 3. We don't believe we will have our own planets (lol) as many suggest. But certainly if God the Father / Jesus Christ are to continue creation of other worlds (we don't know if that's the case, and we certainly don't know any details, but as per our doctrine of eternal progress, that would make sense) we will be participating in that creation and work and glory.
Another problem for the LDS is the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5:38,39 "let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God." The following that they claimed to exist in the New World was dead and gone when Smith supposedly discovered the plates.
Gamaliels counsel is often cited for why they have been able to out resource the Catholic Church in 10% of the time and are one of the few Christian churches whose membership is not shrinking. Is that an undertaking of men or God? Time will tell.
@@scottm4975 do you seriously not understand the criticism? Surely, you are smart enough to see the problem with the claim you are making here. Right?
This is because like the mormons, the catholics also have zero Biblical understanding. If he actually understood the Bible and spoke Biblical truth you would not feel this way about him.
Thank you for your respectful and thoughtful perspective! Regarding the nature of God and the “chicken and egg” problem you brought up, my (LDS) perspective is this: there are clearly forces and means that exist beyond our known and perceived universe. I’m not talking about gravity, I’m talking about the power to restore life, to move tangibly and physically between earth and heaven, etc. The known universe, our own planet, whose creation was outlined in Genesis, does not seem to encompass the realms where God existed prior to the creation of our universe (to use your chair example, you cannot build a chair without a workshop that is larger than the chair or its parts). Does that mean matter as we know it doesn’t exist outside our universe? It would seem not if Jesus can ascend into heaven in his own physical form, if the heavens can open and angels can appear. From my perspective it seems straightforward that God could have a tangible body like our own, although it is exalted and perfected, and still create our world, or our entire universe, since there are realms that we cannot see or comprehend. For all of the known scripture and theology not all truth is known or understood. We live and walk in faith, regardless of our religious perspective or beliefs, to exist and live means to operate according to your best knowledge and understanding, trusting that in spite of the inescapable adversity you will encounter that good can still come of your existence, even if you cant see it right now. There is much I dont know of God but I know that he hears and has answered my own prayers, I’ve experienced miracles without any obvious explanation, felt led by his spirit, and I know that he loves his children.
Is that a bad thing? This is not the first time I’ve heard this argument. It is often given as if it’s the ultimate insult. I’ve known many amazing Muslims. There are a few similarities just as there are many similarities and crossovers between my faith and yours.
15:50 Why would it be surprising that we would keep the command by God to obey the laws of the land? Do you not believe the bible on this? Romans 13:1-5 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."
If you would like a philosophical treatise on LDS theology, read Blake Ostler’s 4 vol set, “Exploring Mormon Thought”. To say you were not impressed by a couple 18 year old missionary’s prowess in philosophy or even theology is not saying much. 😊 If you prefer to read from a Catholic perspective, read Stephen Webb’s “Catholic and Mormon. A Theological Conversation” Any theological discussion you publish without having read and considered the two books above, is not taking an “informed” position on the LDS theology. In fact, I would go so far as to say you cannot avoid straw manning LDS “theology” without having read these books. Good Bless. (1 Corinth 3)
@@bryanhaycock672 I keep hoping Brian will read and study as he feels that is what converts. The Grand Inquisitor he should read too. If Jesus returned would he listen or debate Jesus?
@@FullOfMalarkythey are adequate for what they are called to do. Proclaim the restored gospel. But they are not called to "convert" anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. (Matt 16:17-18)
One doesn’t need to be fully informed about the LDS faith to effectively evaluate it. The three points Brian has brought up are not adequately defended by any additional LDS theology, let alone historical facts. And those three points are just the tip of the iceberg.
You are not alone. Lots of youtube videos have shows Mormons the falsehoods they've been fed. I hope you come to the Catholic Church, the one founded by Jesus Himself. Mormons are not even true Christians.
As a latter day saint familiar with Brian I was interested in this video, and unfortunately was disappointed. He misses a lot in his questions about God, things that aren't that hard to find. Then when he gets to Brigham Young all of a sudden he's an expert on the exact wording of what Joseph and Brigham Young said (even though he still gets it wrong). I guess I'm a little disappointed he didn't even pretend that he researched the responses to these concerns
@@lukehanson_ There's answers for everything but they're all unsatisfying to me. Blacks not allowed in the priesthood, polygamy, and who God is. Joseph Smith said that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods. You can read this from his sermon in the Grove. He also introduced many practices that are not found in early Christianity (the Endowment ceremony, baptisms for the dead). The worship is not liturgical and the LDS don't acknowledge the full bible canon. They follow the Old Testament of the Jewish Canon and disregard important books such as the Maccabees. I'm not mad or bitter of my time in the Church but I'm happy to move on and find true Christianity.
@@parker_chess Let's not pretend like the Catholic Church is the same church as the first century either. #1 difference is the understanding of the trinitarian nature of God. God has some major logical and moral problems in classical theism. The son is God and the Father is God, yet the Father is not the Son. God is not composed of parts, yet the Trinity is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Christ has a human and divine will and a physical body composed of parts, yet he is also an immaterial God without parts. There's also the problem of how immateriality generated or acts on matter. But those are just the logical problems. A bigger problem that actually matters in the real world is the God of classic theism created evil, why? Also, in classical theism we are predestined for heaven or hell. It doesn't matter if Good gave us free will after creating us, he still decided to create us the way we were and out is in the situation we are in knowing what the outcome would be after giving us free will. Do unless you assert he does not know something or was limited in how he could create us, we are predetermined. I'll take worship that's not liturgical enough over those problems any day.
Former missionary here, surprised the missionaries you met didn’t know matter is eternal. While it’s not a missionary lesson to prepare an individual for baptism it is quite clear in our doctrine. Creation is simply organizing existing matter. God the father is the father of our spirit, other heavenly beings assisted in the creation of our earth. Jesus is the son of the father and therefore existed after God. We do not know who created God the father but since we know matter can neither be created or destroyed it’s my belief his existence could be the result of another God. We are created in his image so it would make sense that God would have a father like we do.
All very interesting, but not historical Christianity. Not particularly close, either. To state the glaringly obvious, there was no period in church history when these heresies were believed. The American Mohammed was a fabulist.
My father and I were born a few towns over from where Joseph Mormon founded the faith. He went to their founding of their faith ceremony when he was younger. He didn't like it at all. Every time they come around he would tell them off. Of course I have Mormon neighbors in my apartment complex. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. I start RCIA in a few months. So they see me carrying my rosaries around.
This is good. I was training with an LDS follower and we discussed our christianity, me being Catholic. I asked him, if the church erred following the disciples until the 1800s when Joseph Smith restored it, why did God wait so long? I did provide some bible references that contradict this position and his answer while not agreeing with the scripture per se was that’s a good question.
Mormon Missionaries are kids who are out in the world for the first time without their parents. They're sent out into the world to regurgitate 18-20 years of what has spoon-fed to them since birth. And the fullness of their faith have only recently been revealed to them when they recieved their endowments in the temple shortly before they left. They operate off a script and aren't there to be apologists or biblical scholars trained in critical thinking and argument. It's really unfair to them. So be nice to them. They are in the position they're in precisely because they are good, obedient kids that do what they are told by their parents and church leaders. Show them Christ's love and gently show them how to look at the world and faith in a different way so that they can come to the fullness of faith later in life. Plant the seed instead of trying to transplant a fully grown tree.
Although there are elements of truth in your comment, I feel it is a very inaccurate representation of the beauty of a Mormon mission. It is a tithing of time. They are sent out to teach, but the primary purpose it to selflessly serve, and in that process, solidify devotion to the Savior. When most of their peers are pursuing self (career, education, or even filth), these young people are following Christ's invitation to follow him in a very real sense (Matt 19:29). As you allude, I was incredibly naïve and ignorant as a young missionary in Paraguay, but the experience shaped me in so many ways. There is nothing "unfair" about it. Each missionary (with a few exceptions) leaves their life, family, job, girlfriend, scholarship, etc...voluntarily and pay their own way through this experience. It is perhaps the greatest manifestation of Christian devotion in modern religion. My oldest son is preparing to serve his mission. He is a kind, thoughtful, and bright young man and he WANTS to go. I did not spoon feed him. I did not make him go to early morning seminary for 4 years. He went, even when I didn't want to drive him. He loves Jesus Christ and is motivated by the Holy Spirit within him. He prays and reads the scriptures of his own volition. He is obeying God. Not me. Not his church leaders. There is much more to this than you credit.
Not all LDS missionaries are like that. And they aren't "spoon fed", etc. Each person has to develop their own testimony. I'm a convert to the Church, having joined over 40 years ago in my 20s. I can't imagine being a member of any other church. And it's just SOOO frustrating seeing comments like yours, which I have seen over and over for 20 years online, ever since I got the Internet. You all say the same things I read in the anti-Mormon books I found over 40 years ago in Christian book stores, when I was first trying to learn about the church! You are all just SO WRONG, It's just so frustrating that you don't understand.
17:46 No one in our church (who is well versed in our theology, which I would say is 90% of us) will ever say that the Council of Nisea got the bible exactly right. Please see my other comment on timestamp 11:23.
I'm a convert to the LDS church, having joined over 40 years ago in my 20s. I wish I were the type to make videos and just sit there in front of the camera, showing my face and chatting away like it's nothing. It's so frustrating seeing videos by people who don't understand the Church. And really frustrating reading comments. I wish I could sit down and talk with each and every one of you.
@@jacobbuzan374 I know, I've wanted to for years, along with videos about all kinds of other things. But I'm not the type to just sit in front of the camera and chat away. Also, I don't even have a camera.
It's unfortunate that the adversary has deceived you. he is quite cunning. Cognitive dissonance runs quite deep. I understand since I was in your shoes a few years back. 🙏 for discernment that he will open your eyes and bring you closer to Him. It may be scary and uncomfortable to think about it but once the floodgates open...there will be a lot to unpack. Much love to you, Sister.
When Morgan missionaries came to my house, my mother would invite them in for a Wee cups tea’. She would also tell them that if they came I. Our house, they would leave ready to become Catholic. None came in.
Minor correction 2: Mormons indeed believe in eternal matter, which God only organized but did not create ex nihilo. Neither did he create our spirits. Source: King Follett Discourse.
@@emouselOregon No, according to this teaching matter is eternal. There is no necessity that matter has to be temporal and created by someone/ something else. It is just a different approach.
@@emouselOregon sure, and Mormons would tell you that God the Father had a Father.....yes, you are right, so did He. You want to know who the first one was in that chain? Well you don't understand eternity do you? (None of us do so we will understand after this life when we can comprehend such things). (For the record, before you jump on me - I'm Ex-LDS and not really espousing this, simply putting on my LDS had to tell you what I've been taught all my life)
In all Honesty I think being a Latterday Saint is pretty Simple. You read the Book, and maybe you get an answer, maybe in your own timing like a friend of Ours you won't get an answer *and she has never been a Latterday Saint., I am certain that Our Lord has called upon her from time to time... And Personally having spent 36 years as an Evangelical I've also never seen that Work of Art before. Have I seen things like it? Yes, especially after having become a Latterday Saint. However the Book of Mormon is a fairly simple thing in that for me I received that Witness by The Power of The Holy Ghost, and the pattern has extended beyond the book itself pointing towards a Much larger Message that is taught in Latterday Saint Temples. And though I am Confident to say that these things are of Our Heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ who are together One I have heard all manner of Criticism pertaining too the Witness I have received by various Christians that I leave it up to others to decide for themselves. But none the less I hope that you can Forebear me as we must Forebear one another as Followers of Jesus Christ. I hope you have a wonderful day.
They had no idea what they were walking into! To be fair, not everyone is cut out to be a philosopher who questions and answers the foundations of their faith.
@@tlewis84able Ask Brian about LDS Articles of Faith and he would not be able to recite. Ask which chapter and verse Brian disagrees with in the Book of Mormon… Seems he expects one way erudition
I remember i asked a mormon i ran into about Matthew 16:18 and how "the gates of hell will not prevail" doesnt contradict Mormonism He said (paraphrasing) "It's my opinion that that passage applied solely 2 Peter" yeah, that makes no sense lol
I'm a member of the Church. The response you were given is pretty pathetic and really does not reflect our beliefs. Our belief is that Christ, and His gospel are eternal, and that scripture is partially fulfilled in the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, because despite the apostasy of men causing the fullness of that gospel to be lost and corrupted, it ultimately prevails both in the Restoration and the fact that good Christians continued to live that gospel to the best of their knowledge throughout the ages causing Christianity to become a worldwide religion spreading the word (the Bible) throughout the nations. We would argue that while parts of the Gospel and the Priesthood Authority were lost, Satan never really prevailed over anything. The darkness was only temporary, and the glory of God prevails in the end, as the fullness of the Gospel will never again depart from this Earh until He returns and finishes His work. I'm sure you won't agree with more than half of what I said, but I'm simply offering an accurate representation of our beliefs and doctrine.
@@marvalice3455 have you seen it? Have you been there? You know nothing about hell other than what you interpret it to be. Don’t pretend to understand what these things mean and then judge others by your limited understanding
We don’t believe in the Catholic trinity. Jesus is the son of God. As such he is God, prepared to be our savior before this world was created. On earth, He prayed to His Father, not to himself.
As a former Mormon missionary turned Catholic, I truly believe the seeds were planted while proselytizing because Catholics were always the most cordial. I highly highly recommend patience with them. They are essentially just kids who are sharing what they have been taught their entire lives
I used to be Mormon - and while I can't speak for each one - I can tell you people and official texts of the church tell them not to dispute or contend with other religions, which on one hand means they are adamantly against persecuting other religions - but it also means apologetics isn't stressed - forget about polemics. Their method is ALL about expressing the positive message of their story. They are taught in their mission videos (at least by the 90s) to be especially alert to doing missionary work with the elderly and those in pain from recent loss or trauma as these groups are statistically most likely to join. They are near death or in crisis and already asking questions about what's next. Then their chief hook is the doctrine that families can be together forever. It moves on from there. But they learn their doctrine and traditions in a near vacuum because they're also taught to avoid ANYTHING that's "anti-Mormon" as that's how the devil gets in. The only reason they talked to you was they thought they might be able to convert you. OH yah - and the text for the class for new converts specifically tells you that you are not to interpret scripture or doctrine for yourself, but to seek the answers they'll give. Given how much interpretation and context is needed for the Bible - that doesn't sound too bad - but it's a defensible position - set into a context that overall feels more like being forbidden to think for yourself than to act with prudence. Also, they don't explain the instruction. They don' talk about how critical it is to understand Jewish and ancient Israeli culture and history in order to understand the meaning of the books of the Bible or how layered the meaning of different words is and that there are armies of people who've studied this and lent it to the interpretation of the "cliff's notes" that is the Biblical text - and then that interpretation was subjected to centuries of meditation, debate, and dispute to arrive at the current understanding. Instead they a) have none of that for their scriptures - and they also tell you not to think it our for yourself.
Brian, my older brother is a real wit. One time he saw them coming down the road and changed into his bathrobe and grabbed a can of beer. When they rang the bell, he said, “I’ve been watching you. I insist you come in.” They backed away, never too return. Haha!
Well that's not nice. And what gets me is that I have ranted against alcohol for decades online. One of the things that ATTRACTED me to the Church years ago was knowing Mormons don't drink.
The first Council of Nicaea was organized to establish doctrine as many had differing views. This is the first indication that apostasy was in full effect as all of the apostles had been killed and many that had been converted at one time distorted or used gods word for their own well being . Examples of this are infant baptism, selling of indulgences and the inquisitions.
I’d be surprised if any public schooled kid regardless of religion would know anything about that painting. The difference between a missionary and an average kid is that the missionary would be more likely to be fascinated with the religious symbolism. As an LDS mom I’m striving to teach my kids to see and appreciate art and world religions. I did a whole homeschool unit on the Madonna and Christian symbolism in art (you’re not gonna get that in public school ;). That said, it’s the missionary’s educational and family culture background, not the state or religion he’s from that determines their art appreciation :)
I’m Catholic and I agree with you. I just wrote a comment mentioning that the sheer number of naked or near-naked figures in the art is mind-boggling. It would be especially to a young person who hasn’t been to museums or looked into art history. If I may, I’d like to recommend you look online for videos by Elizabeth Lev. She’s an art historian who lives in Rome, and obviously loves art and is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic. She’s a joy to watch. Maybe you’d like to incorporate one of her lessons into your program?
The Great Apostasy happened over centuries. It began while the original 12 apostles were still alive, and then continued as centuries passed. So much was changed from the original Christian church to what it became.
I wouldn't read into it. I run a decent sized channel and I get comments like this too, and I don't delete them. Sometimes they just disappear or they get held by youtube. Sometimes I get the notification via email and I'll go to respond but it won't even be there on the page. So it's very possible it's just a glitch. Peace :)
1) These questions are all extremely answerable 2)there arent formal apologetics in the LDS faith the way you would expect. It exists and it is well documented but it is only read by fellow members of the faith so there are no illusions of the idea of conversion through argument, such a thing is antithetical to the gospel and contrary to the Holy Spirit. There’s no debate clubs, such things would be viewed as unbecoming and a waste of time, so you were probably talking to a nice well meaning neighbor who happened to go with the missionaries that day, or a different missionary swapped in as they regularly do about every month.
I was raised mormon but i joined the army rather than becoming a missionary. I finally left that goofy cult a few years ago and joined the true, holy catholic and apostolic church this easter season. Thank God for saving me from the despair i felt after leaving that ridiculous religion. So many former mormons are so turned off by religion after seeing the blatant lies and nonsense that mormonism teaches. I almost went down that path myself. Now i seek to help former mormons find truth in Christ's real church.
Missionaries aren't taught to debate though many of us have been are and will be sucked into debates. I was no longer a missionary. But yes we believe Heavenly Father has a body. We believe He's eternal. We do view eternal differently than many. But do we believe there was a time God didn't have a body? Wasn't a God? I would say we do but it was before our existence and so to us in our realm of time He has no beginning. I know the author of this video disagrees most likely and that's fine let us disagree with respect. He asked a respectful question I wanted to give an answer. Simple as that. We do believe in an apostasy and the fullness of the gospel was lost with the death of the Apostles but pieces remained. So why did Christ tell Peter he was the rock he was built on and the gate of Hell wouldn't prevail against the Apostles? Well Jesus values the worth of every soul there were many that died faithful to the gospel of Christ as taught them by the Apostles. There were many who were forever saved in the Kingdom of God because of it. To Jesus those souls were worth it. Saying the Catholic Church or the bodies of men that put The Bible together were all together evil is painting to broad of brush. Some were righteous but confused some were evil and others were good according to the standards they deemed to be necessary as most groups of people. We believe The Bible because its authors were men of God with authority from God that served to reveal His word to His people. So do we believe the men put it together were completely correct in the way they did it? No but what they did put in is good and from God. We also believe there are many plan and precious things missing. We also don't believe the Song Of Solomon to be scripture. That 1 isn't talked about much but it's not. Yes we practiced polygamy and our doctrine still supports the practice when commanded by God. We never have changed and condemned Joseph or Brigham. We just have been told not to have multiple wives at this time. Remember Brigham said or have faith in it. I do at the height of polygamy about 10% of our members were involved with it. The other 90% believed in it but did not practice and weren't damned.
Hi Brian, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and an appreciator of your content. I like Catholics. Be advised: you will never have this kind of deep philosophical discussion with an 18-year-old missionary because that's not their job. They are there to preach the simplicity of the true Gospel to those who want to hear it. You won't find a lot of people who have read enough Aquinas to even have the discussion you seem to be hoping for, amongst our educated adults of our faith, because it's really not that interesting to us, religiously speaking. Any philosophical debate about the nature of God, the shape of reality, and so on, must start with certain first principles that will always be limited by mortal understanding. That means it's fun to engage in and often informative, but it is not the way to reach real truth. Real truth is given by God through revelation. If God says he is eternal, that he created the world, and that he has a physical body, then all three things are true and it's our job to figure out how that works. Discounting revelation because of flaws in our understanding or the thoroughness of our philosophical inquiry is dangerous, especially considering what the Lord said about the wisdom of the learned. I'm sure we could have fun discussions about all these points but I have a bone to pick with your complaint about polygamy. The official declaration you paraphrase in which polygamy was ended as a practice clearly says that 'if it was the will of God we persist, we shall fearlessly continue and suffer the consequences.' The Lord's revelation was that its purpose was met and should be discontinued as a practice. There is ongoing debate about how to interpret some statements by early Church leaders, and how well they understood what the Lord intended in the first place, but no doctrine was changed. Many respected biblical figures had more than one wife, such as Abraham and Jacob. Modern revelation clarifies that it's a practice the Lord typically does not allow, except under certain circumstances. And let's be honest here--the development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a process of refinement (and if you believe in it, slow divine influence to push people in the right direction), and wasn't codified until nearly three centuries had passed after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The reason they needed the council of Nicaea was specifically because not everyone had the same ideas about God's nature, even that late. I think you can generously allow my Church some of the same grace in working out our own doctrine, by the grace and guidance of God.
You clearly don't know how an ecumenical council functions then. The teaching of the trinity was always the standard teaching, which is why majority of the bishops and early Christians were taken back by the Arian heresy spreading. It needed to be addressed and the council calls for bishops from all over, they pray for the Spirit to guide them (the Holy Spirit is infallible) and they coined a term to simply explain a teaching that has already existed and was already well known amongst the early Christians.
Fellow Latter-day Saint (Mormon) here. I agree completely. Certainly, many missionaries are sheltered and understand their religion less than they should. However, when I served my mission in Chile, I found many catholics and protestants to be similarly ignorant. I doubt that it's a good idea to use the lack of theological understanding of some adherents to attack a religion as a whole. Moreover, our Lord's ministry seems as strong of an example as any that theological learning is not the source of our salvation.
The problem is that the questions he asked to the Mormons were not nitpicky technical questions demanding specific answers. They were simply trying to understand holes in the basic logic of the religion. His question about why Mormons accept the Bible was not philosophical but more a question of history. And anyone can claim their message is God's. The question is, is their reason to believe it is with these apparent problems?
One of the biggest holes in modern denominations is pattern recognition. Peter of the synoptic Gospels was a very different person from Peter of the Book of Peter. It is evident that many things he recorded in his Book were not evident to him during Christ's ministry. It's an odd argument to make to discount the arguments of the LDS youth missionaries unless you've thought seriously about the issue.
@@HaleStorm49 The point is that there were many other manuscripts but you guys choose the ones the Catholics finalized on, fully trusting their decision and authority without even realizing it
It's important to recognize what the young Latter-day Saint missionaries are called to do: to testify of Christ and to baptize those who receive the testimony of Jesus through the ministry of the Holy Ghost. That's it. They will try their best to address theological and doctrinal concerns, but they are not called to be philosophers and theologians! They are called to testify, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God speaks again through prophets and apostles, that through them He has restored His Church and priesthood to the earth, and that anyone can receive a spiritual witness of this if he asks God in sincere prayer to reveal it. This approach may seem naive or foolish or ineffective to those steeped in theology and philosophy, but it's important to remember that, for all they have to teach us, philosophy and theology are not revelation; they are temporal disciplines that rely on limited human reason. That doesn't mean we necessarily abandon them, but it does mean that, for believers, philosophy and theology shouldn't be the foundation of our faith -- we cannot build our house upon such shifting, sandy foundations. We must build it upon the rock of Christ, through revelation, the testimony of Jesus given by the Holy Spirit. The missionaries don't need an education in philosophy or theology to testify of Christ -- however, philosophy and theology can close us off to the Spirit. If you want to know whether or not the missionaries' message is true, you have to ask God. Philosophy won't help you; theology won't help you. Only a sincere and faith-filled petition to the source. Knock, and it will be opened unto you.
@@RichLunaMusic Neither of which comes through in your comment. Your ability to deploy buzzwords in a snarky reply, though, is pretty decent! Subtle, understated, almost imperceptibly effective...
Former Mormon here. Yes. Young missionaries are not very knowledgeable of their own true history. They just stick to the script. I am now dabbling in Catholicism. Very informative.
13:26 Protestants on this issue could say "we have OT from the Jews, most of NT was accepted in all local Churches, a few books who weren't had even so been accepted by most of the Church, most local Churches, therefore this near consensus on each NT book goes back to the Apostles" ... the one Apostolic tradition not corrupted. Even from a Catholic view, each book was inspired and accepted by parts of the Church as such, as soon as it was written and given by writer to destination. So, for each book, infallible Apostolic tradition precedes the decisions in Rome, Carthage and Hippo.
Brian, please read Stephen Webb and Alonzo Gaskill's debate discussion on Catholicism and LDS. Called. Catholic and Mormon a theological conversation. Webb also wrote on Mormon Christianity. Webb was Catholic and a prof of theology. But once he stopped the stereotypes and non serious reading about the theology, he was opened to a mind blowing, theologically congruent, rational theology. I am happy to send you a copy of Catholic and Mormon and can put you in touch with one of the authors. Brian, maybe you need to read the actual texts and study from an apologetics perspective. The missionaries are forbidden to debate and argue as God never shows up in contention. But I am very well read in Catholicism as an LDS lady and we have MUCH more in common than either of us with heretic protestants. Please feel free to DM if you wish a deeper theological discussion.
Good discussion Brian. I Peter 3:15 teaches us to "sanctify the Lord God in our hearts, and to be ready to give answer to those who ask, the reason for the Hope that is in us, in all peace and humility." When approached by anyone outside our Faith this should be our guide. But at the same time, there are so many educated and truth seeking Mormons, it amazes me that they continue to give even a moment's credit to the teachings of Joseph Smith; but they have their Book of Mormon and the Rules and Order when Christ alone is sufficient and always will be.
We LDS have more light and knowledge. More Christ. We will not give up more light and knowledge for superstition and smells and bells religion run by pedophiles.
@Marisajohnson: Hi Marisa,im lds also. I would recommend Robert Boylen, over Jacob Hansen. Even Jacob admits that Robert is our best apologist. Robert is brilliant in knowing the Catholic church history and the lds church.
Why not just answer the challenges with clear answers from your LDS teachings, instead of deferring to individuals whose opinions can later be abandoned as “not revelation”?
@@jeanpommes For one, because one of the common pitfalls is differences in theological language. It can be very frustrating trying to discuss concepts with someone who has a completely different understanding of a term… or worse an understanding that is _just_ different enough to cause a complete muddle that neither side catches.
My personal encounters with Mormons and cause me to have considerable respect for them, though I also find their doctrines flimsy. I've found the Mormons I've encountered to be admirably decent people. They have produced their share of violent outlaws, gifted con-artists and other anti-social types, but so do all sects. I got to know a couple of them in law school who were highly educated and very high functioning indeed, even brilliant. I assume Trey Parker and Matt Stone are not practicing LDS members. I think they are among the best contemporary satirists of our nation, perhaps the best. In 2012 Mitt Romney's Mormonism made me hesitant to support him, which I feel very silly about now for what I think are obvious reasons.
Parker and Stone were never members from what I recall (maybe their family somewhere was, but not them). Mittens (Mitt Romeny) is to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Joe Biden is to Catholicism. They are both highly corrupt politicians who are religious in name only.
Trey Parker and Matt Stone, to my knowledge, have never been Mormon. They grew up among a large Mormon population, but we're never LDS. Parker had a fascination with the LDS church, but no conviction. Their opinions of Morons are that they are good nice people, but the religion is bonkers. They won't accept the doctrine but like the folks who do.
4:37 I'm not sure why this is so contradictory to you. Do you not believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead with a perfected resurrected body? If you do, do you not believe that resurrected Christ is not eternal? Being eternal and physical do not have to be mutually exclusive. I figured the resurrected Christ would be enough to illustrate this, but let me expand on it a little more. We know from the Law of Conservation of Mass that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Similar Law applies to energy, but maybe that's a different conversation. The point is that clearly matter can be eternal as well, but that doesn't mean that matter has to be restricted to the laws of space and time. Look at electrons for example. Thanks to quantum mechanics, we understand that electrons don't behave the same way that physical matter behaves in the visible world. Serendipitously, science ended up confirming our theology that Jesus Christ, under the direction of God the Father, created the heavens and the earth (and all the things therein - not all matter). We believe that in the work of the Creation, the Lord organized elements that had already existed. He did not create the world “out of nothing,” as some people believe. I think sometimes we tend to extrapolate things in the bible. For example, where it says that God the Father created all things through His Son, we extrapolate that to mean that he created all matter when in reality the authors of the bible would have no concept of what "matter" even is and likely would have meant "all things in the physical world (the universe) and in heaven" rather than "all matter generally." To think that we would use the bible as any form of scientific explanation is intellectually dishonest in my opinion, as that was not its intended subject matter. For example, I wouldn't go to a cookbook to find an explanation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. To me that's enough to make logical sense of this part of the theology. That being said, I wouldn't think to limit God's ability and power to our current level of understanding of physics. There is so much more to understand that we haven't even tapped into yet.
Jesus became incarnate in physical form, but the Word always was (as John 1) says prior to becoming flesh. So physical form isn't his necessary state except voluntarily. Otherwise he couldn't have created all that is, as John 1 claims he did.
The Bible does not state ex nihilo. The LDS view is that God's body is perfect, eternal, and indestructible and must have such a form to be God, it is an essential component of Godhood. Indeed, one purpose for man is to obtain a body by being born on Earth. This is a marker of progression/power between Man and the devils who are condemned to eternal spiritual form. Matter exists and is ordered by God. God does not create matter in the Mormon view. The Bible does not state that God created everything in the way in which we imagine. God's creation in Genesis is Earth-centric, it does not speak of the universe as we know it, the heavens are Earth-centric and limited in that sense. So, God can be the creator of all we know and see but also caused by something outside that space. Also, given material is made up of that which cannot be seen including atomic, and subatomic particles, and in the Mormon sense spirit, then there really is no contradiction. This physical world did not cause God to be, but a physical world and an endless process of creation, redemption, salvation, and sanctification caused him to be. That God is the creator of all that we know can exist within this idea, as long as we are open to endless creations, possibly in ways we do not see, i.e., the multi-verse, multiple dimensions, infinite universes etc... Modern physics currently is exploring all of this, which fits well within Mormon doctrine. Concerning Divine Simplicity. Aside from it directly contradicting multiple passages in the bible that describe the physical parts and attributes of God, and Christ himself, the man God, we must wonder that this concept is firmly lodged in Greek philosophy not the teachings of the prophets or Christ. The unchanged, unmovable mover that cannot be known and is inexpressible, contrasts very much with the God of the Bible. And if this is the being YWH, one wonders how such a force cares for anyone or anything and why that would be so? Mormon doctrine is one of eternal progression and famously there is the quote, "You are as I once was and I am as you may become". God was once human and went through all that man goes through progressing to his present state. The eternal nature of being is another question and ultimately is unanswerable. In traditional Christianity, the idea of a God of spirit, unmovable and outside of time and space, poses significant questions in terms of his ability to do anything or why he would want to. It also speaks to an existence of eternal boredom and stagnation. All of this is not really grounded in Judeo-Christian original teachings but upon Neo-Platonism. The concept of the Trinity is also fabricated and non-Biblical. The idea of Christ being flesh and God and yet praying to his father, who he gives glory to and is temporarily abandoned by, as well as the end state of the three in one God, is so problematic as to boggle any comprehension. It's all a mystery. The teachings of Christ are fundamentally lost very quickly after his death and those of the apostles. This is undeniable and one must be historically ignorant of Church dogma and traditions which come late and fly in the face of the simple faith and church established by Christ and his disciples. Also, if the Church did continue, when comes the great apostacy spoken of and foretold in the scriptures? Also, what about the whole of mankind left without the word of God for millennia prior to the birth of Jesus and still left unaware of him in India and China and the Muslim/atheist world but previously in the pagan landscape? Is a small sliver of Jews and then Christians enough? Of course, it is a profound failure that Christ's word fell, much as that of God's word failed in the Garden and then again with the Flood and again with the Tower of Bable etc...Man always has the choice to accept or reject God and frequently has chosen the latter. The Gates of Hell will not prevail ultimately against Christ's church but in the short-term Lucifer wins. The Great Apostasy emerges after the Apostles are dead and shortly thereafter when their authority also disappears and multiple false doctrines arrive, which destroy the essence of Christ's message. He is no liar. The KJV is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. That is the Mormon view and of course, it has not been. Also, numerous books referenced in the Bible as scripture are absent, so we know we have an incomplete version. Exactly right that the Bible did not exist at the death of Christ and was only composed by committee and indeed still exists in multiple forms throughout Christendom, and these decisions as to what would be in the canon and what was excluded, was a secular decision and ultimately made by a Roman emperor, and pagan, Constantine. So, how does any of that work for traditional Christianity? Yes, the Apostasy accounts for the Bible, which is why it is a mess and often self-contradictory. The Mormon Church does not believe that all the men engaged in the creation of the Bible were evil or that even most of them were. It holds that they were engaged in a work which was not under Christ's authority. Good men (generally and with the obvious exception) doing the best they could and creating a flawed work which is in need of revision and expansion. Mormons trump all of this by having modern-day Prophets and revelation as well as additional scripture. Young's pronouncements on Polygamy and other topics as well, were not canonized by the Church. Every word that comes from a man who is a prophet, secular leader, etc...is not the same as that coming through revelation. This means his views were his individual opinions and not those of the Church. That is a big difference. Prophets through the ages have had similar difficulties. Obviously, Popes also have a lot of issues in this regard. Still, the polygamy doctrine is a good criticism. Also, regarding bowing to the pressures of secular authorities, one need only look at the role of Constantine in the formation of many essential Church doctrines. One could also mention the secular influence of Charlemagne who essentially transformed the role the Church in the West v. that of the East where the Emperor (very secular power) held final authority over the Church in his empire, dogma, doctrine, appointments of priests, bishops and even the Archbishop of Constantinople. We also ought to acknowledge the Great Schism of 1054 and the secular components there and why this great division between East and West exists. I don't think this criticism holds very well in light of these historical deficiencies.
Brian doesn't understand the role of LDS missionaries. They are not apologetics like he is. They are just there to share their beliefs and not talk about theories or too many details. They are only teenagers. Basically, they share their beliefs and ask people to pray about it. Their formula is that if what they are sharing is true, then God is going to testify to those who sincerely want to know the truth. If you have already determined in your mind that they are not sharing truth, then you don't get an answer. They can't possibly answer every question you give them. They are teenagers doing their best. Give them a break.
At 5:05 “both science and the Bible tell us”…. Where in science is it said something can come from nothing? I thought even in the Big Bang there was something in a very tiny compact space that then exploded. Also where in science can matter be completely destroyed? Doesn’t it just change form, like there’s some matter left over or transformation of the atoms?
The problem with this is that the Catholic answer isn’t any better. To give some teenagers a very profound doctrinal question is not really fair. They are not religious scholars:philosophers. They are just every day people sharing what they believe. It’s not surprising that the missionary hadn’t seen a cathedral before. Missionaries come from all walks of life. He could have been from a rural farm or was not well traveled. What’s wrong with that?
I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with my faith, but I do disagree with the points you made. 1) The Great Apostasy happened because of both the members at the time after the deaths of the Apostles couldn't properly fulfill all the Priesthood responsibilities, and also when the Roman government took over the leadership. Constantine basically merged the Roman pagan religion with Christianity. The early Christians were originally more Jewish in nature. 2) In early Doctrine, God is described to have a physical body. Also, God created this universe 🌌 in his likeness, meaning that there was both a time before the original existence of this universe that God existed in, and there was physical material that was out there, because something cannot be made of absolutely nothing. 3) We believe that the Holy Bible is the word of God, as long as it's Translate correctly. Also, the Jewish people started the organizing of what we called the Bible now, the early Christians put together the New Testament. The Catholic leaders wouldn't allow the average man to own a copy, until way after the Protestant Reformation started making copies available to the public, and the Kingdoms of Europe started having early translations into the local languages. 4)Polygamy was practiced in the time of the Old Testament by the Prophets and Kings of Israel, God commanded the practice, only wicked men abused it. It's only ended after Christianity became Romanized. The Prophet Wilford Woodruff ended the practice because God said it was time to stop, not just because the US government said so. Thank you for taking the time to read 📖 my comment. I do believe and know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church, restored in modern days. I also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that God helped him to translate the Book of Mormon into English, and restore the Priesthood so we can be blessed and give others blessings. I am grateful that we have Temples, to practice the full laws of God once again. I hope you can come and listen again, and be more open minded to the teachings. I know God will bless you if you do. And I say these things, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. 🙏
I stopped after your first point. Ill finish after i make this statement. Your dealing with 18 to 19 year olds whos job is to share not debate. At the MTC we are not taught to be apologests or how to debate but to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. We do believe the bible to be the word of God as far as its been translated correctly. As far as the elder not seeing the painting before blame the school systems of today not some notion that we are sheltered here in Utah I learned all about Michael Angelo when i was in school and love his work to me he is the great master. When i was a missionary over 40 years ago in Kansas and Missouri i enjoyed those who just wanted to talk i enjoyed learning about other faiths. I remember a very cordial conversation we had with a Methodists minister. He told us his beliefs and asked what ours were no debating just a good conversation between. Now as fare as the missionaries bringing some big apologest with them is not what we do. We often bring local members such as the ward mission leader so that people get to know the local members because missionaries are only in areas for a few months before they are sent to another area. Now your comments on our belief of God is nonsensical. The bible doesn't teach that God created everything out of nothing thats just physically impossible but it does teach as you indicated that he mad3 it from things that are unseen such as adams and molecules which cannot be seen but with the aid of powerful instruments. From the genisis story in my opinion it was not Gods intention of God to tell us exactly how he created this world, which explanation would be entirely over the heads of our ancestors who thouth that our heart was are brain. They had a very limited understanding of their world so he gave them enough to understand that He was the creator of it. Now ive writen so much i dont know if ive made any sense
D&C 93 is a section that we do not discuss super often at church, but it definitely provides the answer to his question. D&C 93 talks about intelligence, light and truth and all of us that was not created. So not only does it imply that there was part of God that is eternal, it teaches that there is parts of each of use that was not created. There is light, truth and intelligence that God took and used to form our spirits. So, have we eternally been in the form that we are now? no. but there are parts of us that are eternal. However, as my friend @kip2703 shared, we don't focus on apologetics or anything of the sort. Most Sundays we just discuss how the atonement of Jesus Christ applies in our lives and how we can better access that power in our lives through receiving revelation and following God's commandments.
Angel Studios was distributing the show but they are no longer connected, are they? I haven't been following it closely but I did enjoy the first seasons, accepting it for what it is and on its own terms.
8:33 Is it a surprising concept that the people who led the church to conduct the inquisitions, and all the other atrocities committed by the (apostatized) church? We don't believe that the gates of hell prevailed against the church Christ established, though I can see why that can be the conclusion that some who don't understand our theology can come to. Let me explain. We believe that even though the keys of the kingdom were lost when the apostles were killed and the apostolic foundation of the church on earth was destroyed, the gospel continued to be preached in the spirit world. 1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6 teach us two very important things. One is that there is a spirit world. Two is that the gospel is being taught to those spirits. In the world of the spirits, spirits can either be in a state of spiritual prison (as in 1 Peter 3:19) or in a state of spiritual paradise (see Luke 23:43) as the Savior told the second criminal on the cross he would be with him in that very day (clearly paradise couldn't have been heaven as Jesus didn't go to heaven until what day? Give you a hint, it wasn't the first day). We also see 1 Corinthians 15:29 as evidence that in God's plan, He provided a way for those who are taught the gospel in the spirit world (including those who didn't have a chance to receive it in this life) can choose to accept ordinances performed for them by proxy. This makes sense that God wouldn't condemn someone who hasn't heard the gospel to eternal torment. Now regarding the great apostasy. To me personally it isn't too much of a stretch to see the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic church and say that the church fell away. But we also scriptures that say this would happen. Acts 3:20-21 - He shall send Jesus Christ whom the heavens will receive until the time of the Restitution of all things. Restitution is another word for restoration. 2 Thessalonians 2 -Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming-The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.
As a Latter-day Saint/ long time listener, I have a question with regards to your first point: Don't Catholics believe that God the Son is embodied? That Jesus, post resurrection, ascended into Heaven and that he maintains his glorified body to this day? If so, what's so repugnant about our claim that God the Father is embodied? We never said he has always been embodied (that's an unwarranted extrapolation you made). If you yourselves admit that God can take on physical form (the incarnation is like the central claim of Christianity after all), then I don't see anything inherently wrong with our claim that God is embodied. I've wondered this for a long time (other Catholic content creators have made the same objections). Would love to hear your thoughts
Now, our denial of the Trinity is a different story. I think it's totally fair to take issue with that claim as a Catholic Christian, and I would not attempt to disabuse you of that inclination.
Jesus does not "maintain" his glorified body as Superman maintains his Clark Kent disguise. The Second Person of the Trinity *became* man at a particular place and time. Fully God and fully Man he remains forever. Also, there is nothing "repugnant" about God the Father becoming man, it is simply *not* a Christian (or Jewish) belief.
@@ethanf.237 There is a difference between (1) God appearing in the form of a man (ie Superman / Clark Kent) (2) God was always a man, and (3) God *becoming* a man for the sake of man. Christians believe (3). Also, flesh and blood are far too frail for eternity. Christians also believe in a bodily resurrection with a (glorified) body that is suitable for eternity. St. Paul makes this crystal clear in 1 Cor 15:35-58
Another inconsistency with the idea of apostasy is that the LDS also believe that John the Apostle didn’t die and was allowed to live on and minister the gospel until the 2nd Coming (basically becoming immortal). Why would John allow the true church to become corrupt and fall into apostasy if he remained alive?
I watched this video two days ago and just yesterday I had a conversation with two LDS missionaries. I didn't have much time to talk, but since apostolic succession was one of the key "selling points" in my conversion to Catholicism, I brought up the "great apostasy" argument and why I believed almost the exact opposite.
@@lw1959He doesn’t have to, as that was settled when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors. ”You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matthew 16:18-19) Here Jesus gives the keys to Peter and says that whatever Peter decides is what Heaven decides, and he says he will protect his Church from Satan. We need to know which Church this is, as Jesus prayed in the garden that we would all be one, not many. “But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1Timothy 3:15) Notice St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what Church is it? Paul instructed the faithful to teach people who would be able to teach others, passing on the one, true faith of Jesus. “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2) This faith, this Catholic religion, has been passed on from Jesus’s teachings through the Apostles, and all the way to the current day, uninterrupted. Paul warned the Galatians not to be swayed by new false doctrines. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8-9) The Mormon religion is one of these new religions with false doctrines, because angels supposedly came down in 1820 and told Joseph Smith what to believe, which wasn’t the same as the doctrines the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning, it being the first Christian church. There has never been any major apostasy, like Mormons believe. I suggest you read the Apostolic Fathers, who were authors of early Christian works dating primarily from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, who were known to, or considered to have had personal relationships with the Apostles. They are easy to read because they were written to Then there is another group called the Early Church Fathers, or just Church Fathers, which includes the previous group, but they come after them, from about A.D. 100 to about A.D. 800. You can find an extensive a list of both on newadvent(dot)org. I suggest beginning with the Apostolic Fathers for 2 reasons. “First, they have undisputable apologetic value as witnesses to unwritten apostolic Tradition. Second, they are, for the most part, simple, pastoral men like the apostles and are therefore easy to understand. You don’t need to take a course in Platonic philosophy to make sense of their writings. In fact, many of the documents of this period follow the same basic format as what we’re already used to in the New Testament: pastoral letters and “acts” of the martyrs.” (Excerpt from Catholic Answers) I hope you will read and see how the Church Christ founded was and is the Catholic Church. God bless you.
@@frenchfriedfish1990 a worldview which is coherent with either the literal meaning of scripture, the spiritual meaning of scripture. The literal meaning in this context means what the human writer meant when he wrote. The spiritual in this context means the entirety of what God meant and explicitly includes the literal. Mormons reject the literal meaning of scripture on numerous levels, such as Trinity as revealed by scripture, God's transcendence over the universe and the indefatigability of the church.
11:23 This clarification may help. We believe that the Bible is the word of God in so much as it is translated correctly. I have seen verses in the bible change the entire meaning depending on the translation you're looking at. You point out something important in that the Bible is a collection of books that were compiled into the Bible much later after they were written. We believe that while the books that are contained in the King James bible are good and true (as long as they are translated correctly), there is a very real possibility that many scriptures that are the word of God didn't make it into the Bible. This to me is evidenced by all the books of scripture that are referenced in the bible that are nowhere to be found in the bible. Here are just a few examples. The Book of Jasher: Mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18, it is implied to be a collection of poetry. Various texts claim to be this lost book, but its authenticity remains debated. The Book of the Wars of the Lord: Referenced in Numbers 21:14, it is also cited in the Book of Jasher as a collaborative record written by Moses, Joshua, and the children of Israel. The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel and Judah: Mentioned in 1 Kings 14:19 and 29, these books describe events during the reigns of Kings Jeroboam of Israel and Rehoboam of Judah, respectively. The Book of Shemaiah the Prophet and Story of the Prophet Iddo: Mentioned in the Second Book of Chronicles, these books have been lost to history, except for their titles. The Manner of the Kingdom (3 Samuel): Referenced in 1 Samuel 10:25. The Acts of Solomon: Mentioned in 1 Kings 11:41. The Annals of King David: Referenced in 1 Chronicles 27:24. The Book of Samuel the Seer: Mentioned in 1 Chronicles 29:29, possibly the same as 1 and 2 Samuel. The Book of Nathan the Prophet: Referenced in 1 Chronicles 29:29 and 2 Chronicles 9:29 Another example is Enoch, who seemed like a pretty key figure in the history of human's relationship with God as he "walked with God", yet we have no further records of him besides that he walked with God.
I would invite you to reach out to Thoughtful Faith for a proper conversation (or debate if you want to engage that way) in regards to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I understand that you've presented what seem like contradictions, but not only can these aspects be clarified, but even bolder ones than what you've encountered so far can be made as well (for example: "The Deuteronomist De-Christianizing of the Old Testament" by Kevin Christensen shows that the Bible was robbed of plain and precious truths about Christ even before His Mortal Ministry)
These comments here are so infuriating. People just want us Mormons to "see the light" and leave the Church. So frustrating! Here I spent so long learning all about the Church and gaining a testimony, and I joined it over 40 years ago in my 20s, it was a HUGE decision for me, and people here just want us to LEAVE the Church.
So, I've noticed a few comments from people who have completely misunderstood the point of the story at the beginning, and that's probably because I didn't explain it well. I'll try to clarify with some extra context. To begin, that exchange took place a long time ago. My wife and I were newlyweds, living in our first rental (yes, the image I portrayed was a joke). So, I was a similar age to the missionaries who I invited in. The reason I tell that story is because it stands out sharply in my memory as an endearing experience and one I was grateful to witness. Secondly, because, it set my expectations for what was to come. Initially, I assumed that they were trained instructors who could teach me about their beliefs, but what I found were two very green young men who had never encountered the kinds of questions I had. I offer that context to point out to my viewers that they, similarly, shouldn't assume that because missionaries can't answer their questions, that there are no answers. I wasn't trying to dunk on them or say, this is how you know Mormons are naive/stupid.
What struck me about the missionary's reaction wasn't that he hadn't seen this painting before. His reaction was far more profound than that. He stood their fixed as if he had been transported to an alien world - as if he was having a religious experience (which I think he was). That's what was so memorable about it - he was literally awestruck by it. And pay attention to what he said. He said, "I've never seen _anything like this_ before." Not just, "I've never seen this painting," but, "I've never seen ANYTHING LIKE IT." Now if I asked you to tell me what you think are the most famous paintings ever made, even if you couldn't name them, Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescos would probably come to mind. This missionary was transported by a work because it was utterly foreign to his visual experience. It's like he had never seen a renaissance painting, of any kind. I got to witness someone view it for the first time with nothing to compare it to and it was so moving to him that nothing else seemed to matter. That was my takeaway and I felt like it was a story worth telling because it was so impactful on me, not because it made me think less of Mormons, but because I was witnessing someone having a profound spiritual moment, and I was glad to be there to witness it.
Mormon missions can be rough. They aren't usually treated very kindly by people when door knocking and many of their billets are pretty spartan. If you have time invite them in and offer food and drink. Don't be cruel, they are well intentioned. If you can, lead them back to the Church.
They are good kids.
@@flightattendantangela7248indeed they are. But very ignorant of the true faith. Just rehearsing memorized lines.
@@limoncellosmith7594 I agree. When they have questions, they are just told, “this is true. Believe it”. Something like that. What I like about them is their focus on family, chastity and morals. There are a lot of LDS converts to Catholicism. Not all make it because The “Francis” church contradicts the pre conciliar church. The ones who make it find the Traditional Mass and Traditional Doctrine……which Francis wants to obliterate. We are in scary times God is in charge and He wins as will True Catholic Doctrine, Tridentine Mass and Traditional Form and (Intention - Matter). Which I cannot judge. I only know the form changed. Impossible to judge Intentions…etc
I never thought of it this way, thank you for your comment.
@@limoncellosmith7594man, a few months ago I invited 2 mormon missionaries to my home because I had been interested in their theology since 2018.
Pretty cool people, we chatted a little about Bitcoin and other stuff… but when they started preaching…
I’d never seen such a mechanical preaching in my entire life. Every line was rehearsed and they even had pauses to complete each other’s phrases. Wow.
I wish I could go on and talk about how happy one of them was because he felt that he had finally found the true church and even baptized his (probably already baptized in the Catholic Church) late great-grandfather but I felt so much pity for how brainwashed he was that I simply can’t.
Hey guys. I was a “Mormon” missionary a few years back in Arizona, and I had so many good experiences with Catholics. I feel like you guys are very Christlike, humble, and loving. When I see these types of videos on Protestant channels, the comments are full of hate and vitriol towards us, but I was not surprised to see that most people here are saying to be nice to us, treat missionaries kindly. I love you guys.
Side note but Catholics have some of the most beautiful churches and art in Europe that I wish to see for myself one day.
I’m getting married in the most beautiful church that I have ever seen. It takes my breath away every time I step in there for mass. Even if you’re not interesting in converting to Catholicism, just step inside a cathedral once, you definitely feel the presence of God
What I dont understand is why Protestants are the quickest to anger. They are purely Christ-focused. They dont speak on the infinite God much, its mostly Jesus. No Mother Mary, no Sainted Angels, no human saints. Youd think that being so fixated on Jesus they would try the most to emulate him, and be nice to everybody and stay cool-headed. When theyve got internet anonymity, wow, they can really be abrasive.
Me too! Arizona Tempe Mission?
@@stroopwafelfalafel No way that's awesome! I was in the Gilbert Mission, but I interacted with Tempe Missionaries all the time and loved you guys (Elders and Sisters haha)
@@straubury5991 lol! I spent my whole mission on the border of the Gilbert mission
We had a joke in our neighborhood about the Mormons and JW’s. They’d work their way down the block but never got farther than #43. There lived a devout Catholic widow, Mrs. Vincenes. Her house was like a shrine, statues, little altars, holy water founts, home thuribles, Rosaries everywhere. She’d invite them in and they’d be there for sometimes hours. They’d leave and never make it to our house, #44, probably because they converted to Catholicism!
I bet they would just be hungry after that lol
@@joaop.barata6062 yes, they were definitely hungry. Plus they have a curfew, probably needed to get back home. 😆
@@joaop.barata6062 I’ll bet she also fed them. Probably loaded them up with homemade cookies too.
@@sandraelder1101 good point, good point. I served in Angola so, there weren't a lot of cookies
Haha but idols do not covert anyone. They met a bat crazy idol worshipping bead praying catholic. Haha now that is funny
If you don’t have time for them, just be kind and polite. In our times, anyone who believes in God automatically deserves respect. And we don’t know what path God has planned for them in the future…
We respect your firm held beliefs. I tend to hold this sentiment as well. Sometimes if people get stuck on disagreements on doctrine it causes contention. I believe the spirit cannot be in such a place and leaves. No one is Enlighted and imo satan wins. It is through the spirit that we can be educated on all things pertaining to God the eternal father and his son Jesus Christ. Certainly, in this time when many have abandoned faith and live worldly ways we should welcome and respect anyone who has desires to follow god even if its not the way we think they should. Much love to you brother for your comment.
Amen, and regardless of Christian variation, those who know the scriptures are blessed with wisdom. Those who live by it are blessed with prosperity. Anything that is virtuous, lovely, of good report, or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
@@aurea232 No, debate is useful and changes hearts and minds, even heated debate. This is likely a sex thing. Chicks don't get it.
Its important to remember Mormons are all human beings we are to treat kindly like God would want, just because people are in another denomination or have different beliefs they're still human beings created in the image & likeness by God, we shouldn't look down on people or disrespect them just because they're of different beliefs or backgrounds from us.
Matt Fradd has several ex-LDS guests who became Catholic, they shared amazing stories about their journey.
Just going from one false manmade abomination right into another one.
Too bad he cannot talk to faithful members. I mean, what would he say if I had rabid ex Catholics on my podcast to tell me the ‘real Catholicism?”
Thank you for information! I was always interested wether there're any Catholics converted from Mormonism
@@suem6004 They were "faithful members" who learned the Truth and could not remain LDS. If you had "rabid ex Catholics" on your podcast, all would depend on whether they were telling the truth and not psychotic.
@@michaelbarry6589 ,...If anyone actually learned the truth they would never ever become a catholic. The Godless abomination of catholicism is every bit the Godless abomination that mormonism is.
When they came back they pretty much said to themselves "we need to bring in our strongest mormon".
*Mitt Romney suits up, responding to the Mitt signal*
They did this to me. I was getting into my points that I wanted to discuss and all that he had to say was "I just disagree with you there." I was hoping we would talk about it more, but he did a good job steering the conversation.
After a few discussions with the missionaries, I got a zoom call with the mission president, and we had a two hour conversation, discussing deep doctrinal issues and historical topics.
@@IndyDefense😂
@@charlesmendeley9823did you convert to LDS? Asking for a friend.
What's up Brian! My name is Marisa. I am LDS. I was raised in a home with a deep appreciation for many perspectives. So I actively seek out other religions to learn from them. I also attended a liberal arts high school which increased my appreciation for the Great Books and participating in the philosopher's Great Conversation. I dont consider myself an accomplished reader. I cant say that I've read all of Plato and Thomas Aquinas, though I did try. I was only a junior at the time. I should try it again now. Haha. But I do know the value of it. And in being well versed in historical questions and dialogues. Both in philosophy and in religion.
I have been dabbling in studying Judeo-Christian history and theology this past year, and I know enough at this point to understand why there are at least some of the deep questions that arise like this that you have asked of the LDS Missionaries. I dont feel educated myself enough yet on these subjects to answer the kind of questions you're asking, as they are very deep, built on a lot of theologically complex historical debates (like does God have a body. If He does, how can He also be eternal, which would go back to a very similar debate about the divinity of Christ at the Council of Nicaea with Arius). At this point I would consider myself a beginner at discussing a topic like that, since I am still learning the details of that debate. But there are other people who might be able to address it better. Whether you ended up agreeing or agreeing to disagree, at least you would have more clarity on the topic, so far as what Latter-day Saints actually believe.
If I could recommend someone that you might find interesting, I would recommend Jacob Hansen. He is the creator of the youtube channel Thoughtful Faith. It might be cool to have a conversation with him sometime. Like me, he's an appreciator of both philosophy and religion, and thoroughly enjoys a deep conversation like this.
And while I myself am not a catholic, I have been enjoying your channel and learning about the catholic perspective. And your deep philosophical questions. You create beautiful videos with very interesting content and well expressed ideas.
p.s. And Brian if I can just add that not only are your videos beautiful, but your faith journey, and your religion. I find great wonder and beauty and have a deep respect for Catholicism. When the dark imagery of the priests were shown in this video, I was thinking of Bishop Barron, and the magnificent love that radiates from him. He truly radiates the LIGHT and LOVE of Christ. I love that man. I consider him a profound blessing. Along with all the other priests that pray on behalf of the healing and protection of the whole world! ♥🙏🌎
I’d recommend him conversing with Robert Boylan as well
@marisajohnson2958 This was a very nice comment. Mormons are very nice people, the problem is the very core of your religion is false, and the founder of course a fraud. I am not seeking to be uncharitable, I am simply telling you the truth. The more you submerge yourself in history, the more you will understand this to be the case and that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church founded by Christ Himself, and that the Great Apostasy was a lie. I pray you convert to the fullness of the faith of Christianity which is Catholicism. Hansen should do the same.
I'd love if Brian would have a conversation with someone like Jacob Hansen or Robert Boylan, etc. That could help clear up some misunderstandings about LDS belief in this video (eg, 1. LDS does not believe in creation ex nihilo - "the elements are eternal"; 2. LDS believe many "plain and precious" parts of holy scripture were lost and not included by those who compiled the bible - mistranslations exist - it's not infallible... though mostly true and still revered as containing the word of God; 3. Apostasy did occur after death of the apostles, but corruption of truth was more gradual and certainly there were still many good people in the remaining church (the images of evil priests were a bit over the top); 4. technically, the principle of plural marriage remains doctrinal (ie, God hasn't changed it), but is not currently commanded or permitted. LDS have scriptural basis for this practice being something that has had a time and place and not always permitted - BofM Jacob 2:30, see also OT prophets, Abraham and Jacob).
I'm not really interested in a debate about different interpretations of the bible - that's been done ad nauseam elsewhere - I'd be far more interested in seeing a respectful discussion. Let both lay out their beliefs ask questions, have different conclusions, but maybe talk more about the values we have in common, how we can work toward common goals - that's why I subscribed to Brian's channel long. He says a lot that I agree with and appreciate.
Although Bp. Barron is one of the most recognizable American clerical defenders of the Catholic faith, he clings to some errors himself.
@@JohnAlbertRigali Guess that's the case for everyone. But the closer we come to Christ, the more we reflect Him, and that is what I see Bishop Barron doing. A man who spends all day every day testifying of the Love of God. An entire life time selflessly dedicated to Him. Is there anything more beautiful?
I have two granddaughters currently serving on missions. Please be kind to them! My husband and were not raised in church and we didn’t raise our kids in church either.
Our son got a degree in history with a religious studies minor at UC Davis, but he fell in love with a sweet Mormon girl, and bought it all hook line and sinker.
Our 7 grandkids were all homeschooled and are just the best kids. I’m so afraid for my sweet 19yo to be going to the Bible Belt next week and what kind of reception she will have.
BTW my husband and I took the Mormon lessons and through their prayers came to Christ - but we chose the Catholic Church instead.
Keep praying for them and live your faith in love and truth.
How sad.
@@user-fc1ld9ts8u truly terrible
@@user-fc1ld9ts8u Your comment, yes, very.
0h theres s0 many t0 ch00se fr0m h0w d0 y0u even narr0w it d0wn ?
I lived in Utah for three years and have fond memories. I found LDS to be some of the nicest people I've met. It's not my religion, either, but I do try to at least return the kindness whenever I cross paths with their missionaries.
I don't normally comment, but as a convert to the church and someone who is going to be serving a mission very soon, you’ve caught my attention! I appreciate how open and respecful you have been, and your questions have given me a lot to think about. The LDS church has some nasty history where there are things that happened that I still am not okay with. However, I am doing the best I can right now to prepare myself for what is to come so seeing this was a big help! If we can have more productive conversations like this, the world will be a better place. Thank you for this. God bless 🙏❤
My mother always has Jehovah witnesses in for a polite discussion whenever they come knocking. She hasn't been able to convert them to the one true faith yet, but give her some more time and she'll get 'em.
They are Very brainwashed. I can't converse with them.
I hope so. I was raised a Jehovah's witness. It's a very rough culture
I don’t think it’s a good idea to let them in. I’ve heard some disturbing stories about that.
@@margokupelian344 Careful with that mindset, remember that any stranger you turn away could just as easily be Jesus. I don't remember offhand but I believe there is even a verse about this very idea.
Concert, interesting choice of words. Aren't we supposed to make disciples? I think there's a big difference.
Thanks
The only time we had LDS visit, we ended up talking about the Catechism of the Catholic Church - it was only a few years since it was published, but they hadn't heard of it before and they sounded pretty impressed that we were that organised.
And were you familiar about their theological documents to discuss with them about their faith? Why do Catholics think inquiry should go only one way?
@@suem6004 They brought a flip book with an illustrated summary of the Mormon faith. They came well prepared - I think it's safe to say that the main aim of the visit was to discuss the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Definitely not a one way discussion. But if you do come to my home I think it only fair that we discuss some Catholic teachings.
Thank you for your respect, I wish I was there as a missionary to help.
I am a Latter Day Saint who is learning about other denominations including catholicism.
I do say in my understanding the Apostacy was about the priesthood, if there is no Apostles then you have no priesthood.
Be kind to the missionaries. I live in a building with Mormon missionary kids. They are sweet. I am a Catholic. I love Mormons, Shike, Hindu, Jews and everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. It is my job to be kind, loving and helpful. Catholics are to minister to the sick and help the poor.
Be nice to Mormon missionarys! God is watching.
I live in ghetto East Oakland. NO ONE DARES bother the missionaries! God will rain hell on us if something happens to them! God bless the Mormon missionarys. Lord, always protect them.❤🙏
Thank you for such a kind and generous comment! God bless you!
We Catholics are called to love everyone, not their sins. Therefore, we must present the truth to them instead of accepting their deceitful thinking.
@@tatianasouza2361See, accepting vs slandering are incompatible.
Why should we be patient with people who are causing souls to be lost?
Imagine Paul confronting one of these habitual liars.
@joksal9108 he would be stern but compassionate with you. Paul well understood needing to be pointed in a different direction.
I kind of wish they came to my door. Seems like the only people that come to my door are sales men.
Exactly that’s what Mormons are
Mormon missionaries are salesmen. 😂
Same lol. If they're "the truth" then I guess I'm doomed because they didn't do their job properly, and get to me on time, ha!
@@a.ihistory5879luckily that is what Latter-day Saint baptisms for the dead are for
They don't knock doors as much since Covid. More focus on public engagement / social media, etc
Hello! I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I finished my mission about two months ago. I spent 8 months as a proselytizing missionary in Arizona, then for health reasons, I spent the next 16 months as a service missionary in my home town in Colorado.
I like this video, and I think there's a lot of interesting things to talk about here.
First, how sheltered many missionaries (and members of the church in general) are from diverse art/ideas/theology. I go to BYU, and in my religion class yesterday, the professor showed us six different paintings of Jesus and asked everyone which one they would want in their home. Almost everyone wanted paintings 2, 3, and 6, while almost no one wanted paintings 1, 4, and 5. The professor then said that you could go to any Christian university and get the opposite result. He then pointed out that paintings 2, 3, and 6 depicted the Savior’s suffering in Gethsemane, while 1, 4, and 5 depicted His crucifixion on Calvary. The professor then pulled up John 15:13, where the Lord himself says that dying for one’s friends is the greatest act of love. My professor’s point was that we as members of the church should have a greater appreciation for the Savior’s death, but my takeaway was that we wouldn’t be in this situation if we spent more time with people outside our religion.
I didn’t know that our belief in premortal life was unique until I taught it to someone and they said “Wow! That makes so much sense!”. I didn’t know what the Nicene creed was until lunch in highschool when my friend told me that I wasn’t Christian because my beliefs contradicted it. One of my missionary companions once couldn’t understand that the person we were talking to was atheistic: he just kept asking, “so which God do you believe in?”. You mentioned the logical problems that arise from believing that God has a physical body of flesh and bone. The missionaries probably didn’t have an answer because they never came across the question because we believe that God organized the world from unorganized matter, not ex nihilo.
Second, the limited understanding many missionaries have of church doctrine/scripture/their own beliefs. I think it’s important to recognize how many missionaries are extremely young in their own faith. I have been an active member of the church for my entire life, but until I moved to college, I was just following my parents’ example. I began my personal spiritual journey/gained a testimony of Jesus Christ in 2022. That was eight months before I began my mission. Some missionaries don’t even have the luxury of an entire childhood of Sunday school to look back on, like I have. As a missionary, I helped teach a 17 year old kid named Jace. He was baptized in March 2023. He baptized his friend in December 2023. He began his mission in Kentucky in March 2024. He only had one year (during his transition to adulthood, which is a hectic time for anyone) to explore his own beliefs before he went out to teach others.
I had a total of three weeks of formal training (one week online and two weeks in person) at the start of my mission before I was sent out to teach. That’s not enough time to become fully versed in theology, scripture, debate, the history of thought, etc. So, we were taught to testify of the simple fundamental truths we did know. I told myself that my role was to plant seeds of truth and pray that the Holy Spirit testified of their truthfulness to peoples’ hearts and minds. If they were receptive to the Spirit and if the conditions were just right, they would begin their own spiritual journeys.
Third, how many contradictions exist in the missionary’s beliefs, and the doctrinal history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Talking about contradictions in scripture and the teachings of modern prophets like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (who we believe have the authority to write scripture), makes people really uncomfortable. It puts the validity of your entire belief system on the line. I hope that everyone wrestles with these contradictions at some point in their lives.
Here’s how I reconcile the contradictions, and I can’t emphasize enough that my beliefs don’t necessarily reflect official church doctrine: The scriptures, including the Bible and Book of Mormon, aren’t perfect; prophets and their teachings don’t always perfectly represent the will of God; and the Lord, who is the only perfect being, sometimes gives us different directions at different times. I don’t think that the people who wrote the Bible did it perfectly. I don’t think that the people who decided on the books in the biblical canon were evil, but I don’t think they did a perfect job either. I don’t think any translation of the Bible into English is perfect (including Joseph Smith’s). The Book of Mormon itself says multiple times that while the writers did their best and couldn’t find any faults, if any faults are found, know that they’re the faults of men, not of God. I don’t think that the teachings of any prophet, ancient or modern (especially Brigham Young), were perfect. I think that revelation is a difficult process. I think everyone is influenced by the world they’re trying to teach. I think that God uses imperfect tools to accomplish His perfect work.
Most importantly, I think that despite their faults, the scriptures do contain the word of God, prophets are the Lord’s messengers, and following them will lead me to Jesus Christ.
Anyway, I’ve been procrastinating on my chemistry homework for about two hours now, so I should get to work.
Several years ago, two Mormon missionary girls (college-aged) came to my door and asked if I wanted to talk. I told them I study apologetics and have specifically looked into Mormonism so it's most likely a conversation that would not be fruitful. They said they would like to talk about it. I again told them that it was not something they would enjoy. They insisted. Well, okay…
After about 15 minutes, I wondered why they were doing mission work when it was clear they knew very little about Mormonism. They didn't know some of their most basic beliefs. They weren't aware of much of their history. I gave them more chances to retreat, but they just kept falling back to what seemed to be a script. So I continued.
Eventually, they realized they weren't making progress and settled for leaving me a copy of the Book of Mormon (I didn't have a print copy so I was happy to take it). I've had similar conversations with a couple of Mormon women online and they too were woefully ignorant of the religion to which they hold so passionately. I don't understand that at all.
I was in a Starbucks a few weeks ago and two college-age male Mormon missionaries were conversing with what were clearly two well-versed Christians. They were having a respectful but intense conversation. The Mormons did not fair well in that exchange either.
I wonder if Mormons or JW's would like to leave you with literature, if they would accept any from you as well? Or if they are trained to not accept books or writings from the people they cold call.
I was a Mormon missionary and received no instruction about taking or not taking materials from other faiths. I personally accepted a copy of the Quran and Protestant pamphlets from individuals I spoke to.
@@patrickvalentino600 As a former JW, they do not read anything you send them. However, they will gladly spam you with articles and videos from their website with their interpretations on various subject matters. They are told to be careful reading things outside of their own website as it contains "apostate" information lol. Once I studied church history, it was clear to me that a great apostasy right after Christ's death was just silly.
Woefully ignorant Mormons are no different to woefully ignorant Catholics. The difference really is that we don't send them out to evangelize others or at least I don't think we do.
yeah I totally believe your story dawg
The only time I ever encountered door-knockers, (not sure if they were Jehovahs witnesses or Mormons) I was 3, and answered the door completely naked.
I’m sure it’s unrelated, but I find it funny how our home has never been visited by missionaries a single time since then.
If they were mormon missionaries, they probably left a note on their area book along the lines of "beware of awkward naked kid" :D
Yup. They forewarned their fellow missionaries about the awkward house of nudists so as to avoid an adult answering their knocking.
It's impressive that you have a memory of you being 3 y/o and answering a door naked.
Your comment led me to Google: " What is the earliest age a child can remember?"
I have found that our LDS brothers and sisters are wonderful people. I am a practicing Roman Catholic that has many LDS friends. I've had many meetings with the local missionaries, and they have not proselytized. We talked about Jesus, his atonement and our lives. We have more in common with LDS members than we do evangelicals in my opinion.
I am sorry, you are being deceived. It doesn’t mean you have to be hostile to them, not state if that we serve the same God is herectical.
@@tatianasouza2361You are heretical suggesting a second Jesus could even exist. The Judaizers too were nativists ‘our Jesus is better than your gentile Jesus”! Slander, bigotry, hatred, ignorance you show has nothing to do with Jesus.
Indeed. I am working on a theology flow chart and indeed the restoration (not reformation) returned a lot of Catholic teachings. By the same token Protestants are in left field theologically to everyone.
You may have the same attitude as them regarding faith, but your theology is vastly different. At least Protestants believe in the Holy Trinity. Mormons don't. This is huge, as in, they're not even the same religion.
They believe Jesus was a created being. You don’t have much in common. For all the flaws of evangelicalism, they are at least Christian.
I think Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints described the missionaries very well. He said, "They are more like tour guides." Missionaries are often young, just out of school, and don't really know everything. They are simply going around, providing service to others, and sharing the opportunity to look into The LDS church. If you want to debate doctrine, you'd have a better time talking to someone with more authority or someone who's done more studies.
If you want the Lord's own words, they are among the "weak things of the world", the "unlearned and despised", called to "thresh the nations" (Doctrine and Covenants 35:13).
I lived in Salt Lake City for the first six months of 1993 at the end of my neurosurgery residency to study pediatric neurosurgery at the Primary Children’s Medical Center. The people living there were all charitable and hard working. The few times they knocked on my door, I just told them I was baptized and raised Catholic. They didn’t feel the need to convert me and were very polite and left me be. The same has happened here in my Indiana home now, just one or two times. Exactly the same reaction. They didn’t even want to leave me any literature. One thing of which I have no doubt is that God will lead them home to Catholicism if they truly love Him with all their heart.
Who will God use to persuade them if you weren't even willing to engage? When God wants something done he inspires his faithful servants to action.
Oh brother . . .
Why would God need to lead Mormons home to Catholicism? We do love God with all our heart, that's why we keep the commandments including the abstinence from idolatry that is so prevalent in the Catholic church.
@@BrianTerrill You probably idolize science fiction and fantasy.
@@tuckerbugeater already resorting to the personal attacks?
When Mormon Missionaries came to my door....I invited them to attend a Catholic Mass.... and I talked to them about God's grace.
If they visit, just get them to watch this video together and ask them for an answer.
@@koolxhades I am happy to do a response video. Quite easy to respond. Missionaries have no time to debate. Did Peter not knowing Greek or Greek philosophers not have the truth? A mere fisherman.
Ditto to the other commenter. All these questions are extremely answerable. The calculus u have to address is: 1) are they listening 2)is it worth my time 3)what are the competing opportunities id be turning down. In anyone’s experience, a logical argument around a discussion of faith is an absolute waste of precious time.
This was such a good video. My BF is mormon and he's currently in his mission. I really hope people confront him with these questions. Since he left, I've basically gone down a rabbit hole and found every piece of evidence that disproved mormonism and proven Catholicism. Things that literally can't be refuted such as geographical history. He is such a good soul, but also so young and clearly being indoctrinated into this. I'm definitely adding these points into my back pocket in case the need arises. I know these are things he can't answer. Any question I've ever had towards Catholicism had simple answers and all made sense. I'm actually gonna be starting OCIA soon because of this.
The thing about the supposed apostacy yet still using the bible which was compiled after this supposed apostacy literally was a nail in the coffin, and I hope he realizes it. I would always joke with him about how as Catholics, we're the OGs and literally compiled the bible and I've told him the story how Martin Luther removed many books from it, which is what the KJV is based on. Hopefully he puts two and two together soon. I have solid confirmation for God that he will come home early and eventually find the truth, but forgive me for being a little impatient lol.
It's just SOOOO frustrating reading comments like yours. Here I studied, pondered and prayed a long time to learn why I should JOIN the Mormon church, and then I see tons of comments online for the past 20 years of people who say just the opposite!
The KJV actually still had the deuterocanonical books in it. The bible Joseph Smith used was the full bible containing 80 books. You can still find KJV translations of the full bible, but they are hard to find. It is easier to find a KJV copy of the apocrypha.
I can’t address everything you critiqued, but I would like to respond to your first about the nature of God. First I want to say that I have yet to hear a critique of LDS theology that was purely biblical, and not based in creeds.
In the Hebrew, Genesis 1:1-2 does not say that God created the heaven and the earth from nothing, but rather a better translation is that in the beginning such where the conditions when God created our heaven and earth. In other words, when God created the heaven and the earth, it was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep. There is no biblical creation Ex Nihilo, it’s just not there.
Furthermore, the translation of “God” is from Elohim, which is plural and referring to a council of gods, multiple gods, involved in the creation, and which will then be referred to throughout the Hebrew Bible.
As far as God having a body: why would we, from reading the Bible, believe otherwise? Why are one or two verses of scripture given more weight than the MANY verses that clearly state God has a body? The common interpretation of “God is spirit” is lazy, and no different than if I was to say that we must be God, because Jesus prayed that we would become one with God as He and God are one (a verse that is clearly not saying that God and Jesus Christ are literally the same being).
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I’d like to address some of the points you’ve raised from a Catholic viewpoint.
Creation Ex Nihilo: The Catholic Church holds that God created the universe out of nothing (ex nihilo). This belief is supported by both Scripture and Tradition. While Genesis 1:1-2 describes the earth as “formless and void,” it does not contradict the doctrine of creation ex nihilo. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 296) affirms, “God creates freely ‘out of nothing.’” Additionally, 2 Maccabees 7:28 states, “God did not make them out of things that existed,” which supports this doctrine.
Elohim: The term “Elohim” is indeed a plural form in Hebrew, but in the context of Genesis 1:1, it is understood as a “plural of majesty” or “plural of intensity,” emphasizing the greatness and majesty of the one true God. The Catholic Church believes in monotheism, as stated in the Nicene Creed: “We believe in one God.”
God’s Nature and Physical Form: The Catholic Church teaches that God is spirit and does not have a physical body. This is based on passages such as John 4:24, where Jesus says, “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” Descriptions of God having a body in the Old Testament are understood metaphorically, helping humans relate to divine actions. The Church Fathers, including St. Augustine, emphasized God’s incorporeal nature.
Jesus’ Prayer for Unity: When Jesus prayed for his followers to be one as He and the Father are one (John 17:21), He was referring to spiritual unity and communion, not a literal merging of beings. The Catholic Church interprets this as a call for unity in faith and love among believers, reflecting the unity of the Trinity.
I hope this provides a clear understanding of the Catholic perspective. If you have any further questions or would like to discuss more, please feel free to ask.
I hope this helps! Let me know if there’s anything else you’d like to discuss.
@@JohnLovesMary Out of curiosity: Elohim is plural, then it says "God is Spirit"... not a spirit, but spirit as in a state of being? The word god is more of a title than a name, always has been in every human understanding, which is why we capitalize God when talking about the Supreme Deity or other respects and use the word god when discussing beings attributed to an element.
Does it not make sense then, given Hebrew and the way human's understanding bastardizes original truths, that there are multiple "gods" or creators with multiple forms or layers? Different skills or attributes for creation, joined together in purpose under the title God? If the original truth is that there is a team where everyone on it refers to their title as God, it makes sense that every early religion would copy that and make pantheons... which they did. (Or the belief that everything with mortal flesh also has a spirit, and therefore that life force is a god in it's own rite, like Shintoism and some amount of Buddhism proclaim.) Then mass confusion over the spirit designated to take mortal life and be sacrificed for us claiming the same title across the Old Testament, resulting in Israel's unique monotheism because they worshipped a title and the name of one, though described many with the same title.
The Trinity describes a being that is part divine, part transcended human, part spirit, in varying states that contradict itself because the Nicene Creed and politics needed man to be below God and God to be unreachable. But the Bible teaches that humans are already body and spirit, as well as describing at Christ's baptism that there were three distinct beings in the Father's voice from heaven, Christ in the flesh, and the Spirit in the form of a dove. It teaches that we will be reunited with our bodies, as Christ was. What happened to His body if He is not using it? And if His body became spirit, as the "God is Spirit" claims, are perfected bodies simply bodies that are purified spiritually with spirit qualities?
The Holy Spirit is God, right? Then why was it separate from the voice? Why separate from Christ? Why would Christ need a body at all to sacrifice if the only state of being needed is "spirit"? What is the official teachings on resurrection then, and how does it mesh with the example Christ gave when He ascended?
With the idea of Elohim being plural, and the name of the OT god given as Jehovah, it makes sense to me then that Christ ascended and joined a divine, multifaceted group of creators rather than abandoning His perfected body that He used well after death. Whether that be a team of many that specialize like the pagans organize their mythos, or a Father and Son and Spirit business venture, it just makes sense given what I know from the Bible that God the Father nor the resurrected Christ is not simply a spirit, but the Holy Spirit covers those tasks and why He remains without a body. That Jehovah was the name of the spirit of the Son of God before he was given an earthly name with His mortal body that the telephone game across languages turned into Jesus, and not the name of the divine overseer/ Father or Spirit. That the Father God is a purified body with the qualities of spirit but refrains from interacting with mortals on our test, that the Son God was born of Mary and resurrected with his purified body and set the example for us to follow, that the Spirit God remains without a body so He many lead and guide and reveal to us all without the confines of a body. Three individuals all part of the same God Team under the same title of God, or a plural Elohim, united on the purpose of redeeming mankind for those of us who can and do bridle our passions and qualify for grace.
Besides, how could the Trinity cut part of itself out in order to be Jesus for a life? The other parts were still present in the voice from heaven saying, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," and simultaneously visible among the crowd in the form of a dove. Three separate beings with three separate states of being, and accessibility to mankind on our multifaceted test in overcoming mortal temptation.
Thoughts? Or Biblical corrections? It's been a bit since I've read any holy writings of any sort, but I spent a fair amount of time pondering these truths across and after the cover to cover of the Bible.
Hey Brian thanks for the video. I too have had my conversations with Mormon people some here at my house others out in salt lake where I go skiing from time to time. The points of information you've given in those video will be very helpful to me when talking with other Mormons and evangelizing to them as a Catholic. I would like to let you know how grateful I am for you and your videos for you have given me many mediums and options and evangelization tools. Keep up the good work and God bless you and your family.
Why would you want to evangelize to us?? Here I spent SO LONG learning about the LDS church, wanting to join it, and you would want to take me away from it?? It's just so frustrating.
@@Cindybin46Sadly, you have been sold a lie, and we Catholics want you to know the truth as Jesus would, too. I wrote this to someone else, but I hope you’ll read it and see why your’s is just a manmade religion. Consider reading some of the Fathers I wrote about which should make you realize that the Catholic Christian Church has been teaching Christ’s truth from the beginning and there never was a major apostasy from the faith at the time Mormons say there was.
He doesn’t have to, as that was settled when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors. ”You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matthew 16:18-19) Here Jesus gives the keys to Peter and says that whatever Peter decides is what Heaven decides, and he says he will protect his Church from Satan. We need to know which Church this is, as Jesus prayed in the garden that we would all be one, not many.
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1Timothy 3:15) Notice St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what Church is it?
Paul instructed the faithful to teach people who would be able to teach others, passing on the one, true faith of Jesus. “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2) This faith, this Catholic religion, has been passed on from Jesus’s teachings through the Apostles, and all the way to the current day, uninterrupted.
Paul warned the Galatians not to be swayed by new false doctrines. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8-9) The Mormon religion is one of these new religions with false doctrines, because angels supposedly came down in 1820 and told Joseph Smith what to believe, which wasn’t the same as the doctrines the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning, it being the first Christian church. There has never been any major apostasy, like Mormons believe. I suggest you read the Apostolic Fathers, who were authors of early Christian works dating primarily from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, who were known to, or considered to have had personal relationships with the Apostles. They are easy to read because they were written to Then there is another group called the Early Church Fathers, or just Church Fathers, which includes the previous group, but they come after them, from about A.D. 100 to about A.D. 800. You can find an extensive a list of both on newadvent(dot)org.
I suggest beginning with the Apostolic Fathers for 2 reasons. “First, they have undisputable apologetic value as witnesses to unwritten apostolic Tradition. Second, they are, for the most part, simple, pastoral men like the apostles and are therefore easy to understand. You don’t need to take a course in Platonic philosophy to make sense of their writings. In fact, many of the documents of this period follow the same basic format as what we’re already used to in the New Testament: pastoral letters and “acts” of the martyrs.” (Excerpt from Catholic Answers) I hope you will read and see how the Church Christ founded was and is the Catholic Church. God bless you.
He doesn’t have to, as that was settled when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors. ”You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matthew 16:18-19) Here Jesus gives the keys to Peter and says that whatever Peter decides is what Heaven decides, and he says he will protect his Church from Satan. We need to know which Church this is, as Jesus prayed in the garden that we would all be one, not many.
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1Timothy 3:15) Notice St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what Church is it?
Paul instructed the faithful to teach people who would be able to teach others, passing on the one, true faith of Jesus. “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2) This faith, this Catholic religion, has been passed on from Jesus’s teachings through the Apostles, and all the way to the current day, uninterrupted.
Paul warned the Galatians not to be swayed by new false doctrines. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8-9) The Mormon religion is one of these new religions with false doctrines, because angels supposedly came down in 1820 and told Joseph Smith what to believe, which wasn’t the same as the doctrines the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning, it being the first Christian church. There has never been any major apostasy, like Mormons believe. I suggest you read the Apostolic Fathers, who were authors of early Christian works dating primarily from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, who were known to, or considered to have had personal relationships with the Apostles. They are easy to read because they were written to Then there is another group called the Early Church Fathers, or just Church Fathers, which includes the previous group, but they come after them, from about A.D. 100 to about A.D. 800. You can find an extensive a list of both on newadvent(dot)org.
I suggest beginning with the Apostolic Fathers for 2 reasons. “First, they have undisputable apologetic value as witnesses to unwritten apostolic Tradition. Second, they are, for the most part, simple, pastoral men like the apostles and are therefore easy to understand. You don’t need to take a course in Platonic philosophy to make sense of their writings. In fact, many of the documents of this period follow the same basic format as what we’re already used to in the New Testament: pastoral letters and “acts” of the martyrs.” (Excerpt from Catholic Answers) I hope you will read and see how the Church Christ founded was and is the Catholic Church. God bless you.
9:33 This is the question that the apostles themselves wrestled with, as I'm sure you're aware. They saw the mission of Jesus very differently prior to his death on the cross. Jesus Christ establishing His church was obviously not for nothing. One the gospel,/the teachings of Christ, even though the church's apostolic authority to conduct it was lost, did change the world and we believe that God was still involved with inspiring certain things like the constitution of the United States. So in other words, the church falling away wasn't a "whoopsie daisy" for God. He's all knowing. This was part of the plan. There needed to be a restoration so that "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." (Ephesians 1:10)
Enjoyed listening to you. My friend and I have had many discussions on these subjects. He graduated from monistary with a Doctorate in philosophy and have devoted many years studying philosophy psychology and religion. I have been a member of the LDS Church for sixty years. An understanding of God Himself and His power of creation is challenging for sure. I hope you work it out. Argument is good for only so far.
I’m a Latter-day Saint and I have really enjoyed many of your videos. And I take no offense in hearing your objections to the LDS faith. I’ll attempt to answer your questions.
1. We reject the doctrine of creation ex nihilio. Therefore God is not the creator of the physical universe. God organizes from existing matter, thus bringing order out of chaos. God’s spirit is eternal but His body is part of the material universe.
2. The apostasy was not Christ’s church failing. Christianity made the world a better place. Historian Tom Holland has had a lot to say about this. The Restoration is evidence that the gates of Hell did not prevail.
3. We embrace the KJV bible because we embrace all truth from wherever it comes and don’t believe in a closed cannon.
4. Plural marriage is an exception. Monogamy is the standard. Plural marriage is only a subset of the doctrine eternal marriage. Unlike Catholics, we don’t consider the leaders of our church infallible. So we shouldn’t expect perfect consistency in doctrinal matters. Course corrections happen. The church is lead by God despite the fallibility of those running it.
As to your last point, that’s something these Catholic commentators always get wrong. We believe prophets have the keys to administer the church. That is not the same as treating every statement they make as dogma.
Interesting how Brian is not interested in your explanations of LDS theology. As if he is happier to believe in ignorance than in truth. True scholars would respond to your excellent and concise explanation.
I was about to write answers to these concerns but then saw your comment here. Thank you for explaining these.
@@adanalyst6925 How do you know when something is dogma in the lds church?
@@kerry8506 I just typed a long reply that is not showing up on my RUclips, let me know if you can see it :)
Understand that in general Mormon missionaries are barely out of high school. They are not theologically trained or educated enough to engage on that level.
Brian I wonder if you might tell me what the stain glass window-like soft light is called on your bookshelf to your left?
I catches my eye on most of your videos so I’m really interested.
Thank you.
This video was really helpful.
I tried finding something like it after watching his videos, no luck. I would love to know as well.
We really should remember that these Mormon missionaries are 18 or 19-year-old kids just out of high school. They are not trained scholars or apologist. They are merely “tour guides“ for the basic fundamental teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.
If you want to have a secular/apologist discussion from someone of the LDS persuasion, you need to actually find someone who is trained in those areas.
If I had an 18-year-old Catholic boy coming to my house, and I tried to cross examine him I wouldn’t be surprised if he was showing some level of ignorance. Please be kind.
Brian, thank you for your respectful discourse about your meeting with missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think the utility of our diligent missionaries may not stretch to the sorts of theological discussions you were seeking, I know I would not have been able to satisfy your answers when I was young on a mission. I can put you in touch with many people who would be able to have these conversations with you if you’d like. I’d also say that it isn’t fair to base your understanding of a whole faith’s relationship with Christian art on an individual young man’s experience with that piece of art. I’m from Britain and one of the greatest joys of my life is studying traditional religious art and music (and I would probably say it is more accessible here in Europe), I was recently in Montserrat and it was one of the highlights of my life! These missionaries are excellent young men who have been given a wonderful opportunity to teach and to learn at the primes of their youth!
I’m all for an LDS renaissance of religious art in all forms. I’ve loved Russian sacred choir music for over a decade and seek to incorporate a bit for of that style into our worship. Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, and Sviridov all evoke awe and reverence with their sacred works.
@@forallthesaintspod Makes me wonder at the disappointed Greek and Roman philosophers who wanted to debate but rubes like Peter, James and John were unlearned. Not impressive to the pagans then either
Having lived a a heavily Mormon city, Mesa AZ, for over 10 years, I can confirm LDS kids growing up are largely steered into their own faith circles for socializing. Other than things like school sports, Mormon high school kids are expected to go after school hours to "seminary" which are often right across the street from the public school. Said seminaries are actually pretty light on content, its more for LDS boys and girls to imprint upon each other under adult supervision. A lot like Luther League, but more so. When LDS kids go on their mission , THAT's when they get a crash course in their evangelical sales pitch, and largely, that's what it is. A sales script.. Get them off that script, and they flounder.
The most important purpose of LDS missions is not evangelizing never Mormons into LDS. Rather, it's an initiating common experience, much like military service. Get these young adults out of their comfort zones, in often psychological hostile and very different cultures, where really they have no choice but to rely upon their fellow missionaries and local "bishop". It's a very strong reinforcement of cultural cohesion and loyalty, a mild grade "ordeal" that often lasts all their lives, one in which they can share stories about at their local stakes.
As someone from Mesa who did all those things...it's good to learn how it works from an outsider. Thank you for that. 😉
As a member of the Church from outside of the United States, please do tell me more about how I live my life :D
@robertlehnert4148 for us in California, it was early morning seminary, it was my favorite part of high school. It's nice being with others who are not doing underage drinking and premarital sex like everyone else is doing. I had one friend who was and is devote Catholic. The rest of the Catholics were Catholics on Good Friday when it got them out of school.
LDS have their own after school class?
Wait till OP learns Catholics built themselves separate high schools 💀
There are some distressing testimonies on RUclips about young missionaries who have to bankroll their own missions and often miss meals due to lack of funds. So it’s probably a good idea to at least offer them a sandwich when they come to your door.
As far as the Bible goes, the LDS believe that the Bible was corrupted during the great apostasy. They still teach from it, but they dont believe that the Bible we have today is inerrant.
For the nature of God, they reject many of the things that christians accept about god: ex nihlo creation, creator/creature distinction. They teach that God and Humans are basically the same species, so god isn't ontologically unique. God is simply a more developed human in the same way that you are a more developed version of your children.
I'm curious if you know which scriptures are used to defend the "different species' argument.? Is like to cite those four a religious discussion
Thank you for a correct summation of our beliefs. It gets tiresome to keep contending against straw man arguments.
I should add that we not only teach from the Bible, but we believe it to be word of God and is part of our canon of scripture so long as it's translated correctly. We use the King James Bible, with added scripture references and summaries and such. We also have the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, or rather, small parts of it, which we also consider scripture, however they do not replace the Bible.
We also do not believe the Book of Mormon to be inerrant as it's translated and printed over multiple languages and editions, and we also accept that the original authors may have made human mistakes in writting, this is admitted in the book itself.
But for both, we believe them to be the revealed word of God, passed down through generations by God's hand, one way or another.
I am not sure what you mean by God being simply a more developed human.... Um. LDS don't really teach that. Yes God has the same human shape, but he's immortal, powerful, all knowing, and lots of other attributes including glory (glowing like the sun). The Bible in Genesis 1:26, 27 says that we males and females on earth were created to look like the God (the "us") in heaven. We actually believe that there's a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (males and females on earth, males and females in heaven -- the Godhead plus the other male or female appearing beings in heaven). It says in Genesis 1, Let US make man (mankind) in OUR image, male and female. US is plural up in heaven. However, in day to day life, we only address our "Heavenly Father" or Jesus. In Luke 3 it gives one of the accounts of Jesus' genealogy, going backwards in time. In verse 38 it says, "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." God is the father of Adam.
@@mysterypro_music I don't know if you're a member of the Church or not (I am, returned missionary, currently serving in a Bishopric and institute teacher), but allow me to reply to you before people start regurgitating anti-mormon talking points, in case you're not totally familiar with this doctrine.
What they are referring to, is the fact that we do teach the concept that when Christ said "I do what I have seen the Father do" (paraphrasing the scripture here), he meant that God the Father had been like Christ once before. Keeping in mind that this is a doctrine that is very barebones. We don't know much about it. It was mostly taught in early Church days, and if there were more in-depth teachings about it, they have been lost to time. But we still do teach it to a degree.
Critics of the Church take this teaching out of proportion and out of context. 3 things to keep in mind:
1. We don't believe God is just a regular old human who became God. At best we believe God the Father was a Christ, or a Messiah (where, how, when, we don't know), meaning we take Christ's words (as paraphrased above) literally. So no, we don't believe God was once equal to us, just as much as we don't believe we're equals to Christ. But Christ is equal to God the Father.
2. We don't believe we will become Gods equal to God the Father. We believe we can become (lower case) gods, so to speak, or priests and priestesses, in the Kingdom of God, meaning we will always be subservient to God the Father and Jesus Christ, participating in furthering their work, glory and creation for all eternity. So again, we take Psalm 82:6 literally.
3. We don't believe we will have our own planets (lol) as many suggest. But certainly if God the Father / Jesus Christ are to continue creation of other worlds (we don't know if that's the case, and we certainly don't know any details, but as per our doctrine of eternal progress, that would make sense) we will be participating in that creation and work and glory.
Thank you Brian! I appreciated your video
Another problem for the LDS is the advice of Gamaliel in Acts 5:38,39 "let them alone; for if this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You might even be found opposing God."
The following that they claimed to exist in the New World was dead and gone when Smith supposedly discovered the plates.
Gamaliels counsel is often cited for why they have been able to out resource the Catholic Church in 10% of the time and are one of the few Christian churches whose membership is not shrinking.
Is that an undertaking of men or God? Time will tell.
Interesting. I’m sure you have noted that Mormonism is the fastest growing Christian belief system then?
@@scottm4975 do you seriously not understand the criticism?
Surely, you are smart enough to see the problem with the claim you are making here. Right?
I read this comment a few times, and maybe it's because I'm not a native english speaker, but I swear I could not understand what the heck you mean
@@scottm4975 Hmm pretty sure Pentecostalism is growing faster than Mormonism.
This is very respectful and open-minded of you. I appreciate that.
This is because like the mormons, the catholics also have zero Biblical understanding. If he actually understood the Bible and spoke Biblical truth you would not feel this way about him.
I don’t know how many times my parents have talked to Mormon missionaries. It was way too often from what I recall.
Thank you for your respectful and thoughtful perspective! Regarding the nature of God and the “chicken and egg” problem you brought up, my (LDS) perspective is this: there are clearly forces and means that exist beyond our known and perceived universe. I’m not talking about gravity, I’m talking about the power to restore life, to move tangibly and physically between earth and heaven, etc. The known universe, our own planet, whose creation was outlined in Genesis, does not seem to encompass the realms where God existed prior to the creation of our universe (to use your chair example, you cannot build a chair without a workshop that is larger than the chair or its parts).
Does that mean matter as we know it doesn’t exist outside our universe? It would seem not if Jesus can ascend into heaven in his own physical form, if the heavens can open and angels can appear. From my perspective it seems straightforward that God could have a tangible body like our own, although it is exalted and perfected, and still create our world, or our entire universe, since there are realms that we cannot see or comprehend.
For all of the known scripture and theology not all truth is known or understood. We live and walk in faith, regardless of our religious perspective or beliefs, to exist and live means to operate according to your best knowledge and understanding, trusting that in spite of the inescapable adversity you will encounter that good can still come of your existence, even if you cant see it right now. There is much I dont know of God but I know that he hears and has answered my own prayers, I’ve experienced miracles without any obvious explanation, felt led by his spirit, and I know that he loves his children.
I have been shocked how close to the beginning of Islam and Mormanisn they compare!
Is that a bad thing? This is not the first time I’ve heard this argument. It is often given as if it’s the ultimate insult. I’ve known many amazing Muslims. There are a few similarities just as there are many similarities and crossovers between my faith and yours.
What an insane thing to write.
@@tylerahlstrom4553 The reason why it’s seen as a bad thing is because their similarities are the objectively negative aspects they share lol
@@tylerahlstrom4553yes it's a bad thing. Your founder was deceived by demons and so was Mohammed.
Ah yes, we conquered lots of lands too :D
15:50 Why would it be surprising that we would keep the command by God to obey the laws of the land? Do you not believe the bible on this?
Romans 13:1-5
"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."
If you would like a philosophical treatise on LDS theology, read Blake Ostler’s 4 vol set, “Exploring Mormon Thought”. To say you were not impressed by a couple 18 year old missionary’s prowess in philosophy or even theology is not saying much. 😊
If you prefer to read from a Catholic perspective, read Stephen Webb’s “Catholic and Mormon. A Theological Conversation” Any theological discussion you publish without having read and considered the two books above, is not taking an “informed” position on the LDS theology. In fact, I would go so far as to say you cannot avoid straw manning LDS “theology” without having read these books.
Good Bless. (1 Corinth 3)
@@bryanhaycock672 I keep hoping Brian will read and study as he feels that is what converts. The Grand Inquisitor he should read too. If Jesus returned would he listen or debate Jesus?
Why send these missionaries if they are inadequate?
@@FullOfMalarkythey are adequate for what they are called to do. Proclaim the restored gospel. But they are not called to "convert" anyone. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. (Matt 16:17-18)
One doesn’t need to be fully informed about the LDS faith to effectively evaluate it. The three points Brian has brought up are not adequately defended by any additional LDS theology, let alone historical facts.
And those three points are just the tip of the iceberg.
Everything is matter. The invisible and invisible. All matter is eternal.
I'm leaving the LDS church. Many of the reasons mentioned in this video are exactly why I'm leaving. God Bless
You are not alone. Lots of youtube videos have shows Mormons the falsehoods they've been fed. I hope you come to the Catholic Church, the one founded by Jesus Himself. Mormons are not even true Christians.
As a latter day saint familiar with Brian I was interested in this video, and unfortunately was disappointed. He misses a lot in his questions about God, things that aren't that hard to find. Then when he gets to Brigham Young all of a sudden he's an expert on the exact wording of what Joseph and Brigham Young said (even though he still gets it wrong).
I guess I'm a little disappointed he didn't even pretend that he researched the responses to these concerns
@@lukehanson_ There's answers for everything but they're all unsatisfying to me. Blacks not allowed in the priesthood, polygamy, and who God is. Joseph Smith said that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate Gods. You can read this from his sermon in the Grove. He also introduced many practices that are not found in early Christianity (the Endowment ceremony, baptisms for the dead). The worship is not liturgical and the LDS don't acknowledge the full bible canon. They follow the Old Testament of the Jewish Canon and disregard important books such as the Maccabees. I'm not mad or bitter of my time in the Church but I'm happy to move on and find true Christianity.
@@parker_chess Let's not pretend like the Catholic Church is the same church as the first century either. #1 difference is the understanding of the trinitarian nature of God. God has some major logical and moral problems in classical theism. The son is God and the Father is God, yet the Father is not the Son. God is not composed of parts, yet the Trinity is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Christ has a human and divine will and a physical body composed of parts, yet he is also an immaterial God without parts. There's also the problem of how immateriality generated or acts on matter.
But those are just the logical problems. A bigger problem that actually matters in the real world is the God of classic theism created evil, why? Also, in classical theism we are predestined for heaven or hell. It doesn't matter if Good gave us free will after creating us, he still decided to create us the way we were and out is in the situation we are in knowing what the outcome would be after giving us free will. Do unless you assert he does not know something or was limited in how he could create us, we are predetermined. I'll take worship that's not liturgical enough over those problems any day.
Former missionary here, surprised the missionaries you met didn’t know matter is eternal. While it’s not a missionary lesson to prepare an individual for baptism it is quite clear in our doctrine. Creation is simply organizing existing matter. God the father is the father of our spirit, other heavenly beings assisted in the creation of our earth. Jesus is the son of the father and therefore existed after God. We do not know who created God the father but since we know matter can neither be created or destroyed it’s my belief his existence could be the result of another God. We are created in his image so it would make sense that God would have a father like we do.
@@watchd Amen
All very interesting, but not historical Christianity. Not particularly close, either.
To state the glaringly obvious, there was no period in church history when these heresies were believed.
The American Mohammed was a fabulist.
My father and I were born a few towns over from where Joseph Mormon founded the faith. He went to their founding of their faith ceremony when he was younger. He didn't like it at all. Every time they come around he would tell them off. Of course I have Mormon neighbors in my apartment complex. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. I start RCIA in a few months. So they see me carrying my rosaries around.
Joseph Smith.
As a member of the Church... Joseph who now? Founding of what now? :D
@@ZetaN7 why didn't he like it? Is it because they don't pray to their nativity sets?
I’m a member but I don’t know what a founding of faith ceremony is.
@@joaop.barata6062 Joseph Mormon, prophet and translator of the Book of Smith, of course!
This is good. I was training with an LDS follower and we discussed our christianity, me being Catholic. I asked him, if the church erred following the disciples until the 1800s when Joseph Smith restored it, why did God wait so long? I did provide some bible references that contradict this position and his answer while not agreeing with the scripture per se was that’s a good question.
Mormon Missionaries are kids who are out in the world for the first time without their parents. They're sent out into the world to regurgitate 18-20 years of what has spoon-fed to them since birth. And the fullness of their faith have only recently been revealed to them when they recieved their endowments in the temple shortly before they left. They operate off a script and aren't there to be apologists or biblical scholars trained in critical thinking and argument. It's really unfair to them. So be nice to them. They are in the position they're in precisely because they are good, obedient kids that do what they are told by their parents and church leaders. Show them Christ's love and gently show them how to look at the world and faith in a different way so that they can come to the fullness of faith later in life. Plant the seed instead of trying to transplant a fully grown tree.
Best comment
Although there are elements of truth in your comment, I feel it is a very inaccurate representation of the beauty of a Mormon mission. It is a tithing of time. They are sent out to teach, but the primary purpose it to selflessly serve, and in that process, solidify devotion to the Savior. When most of their peers are pursuing self (career, education, or even filth), these young people are following Christ's invitation to follow him in a very real sense (Matt 19:29). As you allude, I was incredibly naïve and ignorant as a young missionary in Paraguay, but the experience shaped me in so many ways. There is nothing "unfair" about it. Each missionary (with a few exceptions) leaves their life, family, job, girlfriend, scholarship, etc...voluntarily and pay their own way through this experience. It is perhaps the greatest manifestation of Christian devotion in modern religion. My oldest son is preparing to serve his mission. He is a kind, thoughtful, and bright young man and he WANTS to go. I did not spoon feed him. I did not make him go to early morning seminary for 4 years. He went, even when I didn't want to drive him. He loves Jesus Christ and is motivated by the Holy Spirit within him. He prays and reads the scriptures of his own volition. He is obeying God. Not me. Not his church leaders. There is much more to this than you credit.
Not all LDS missionaries are like that. And they aren't "spoon fed", etc. Each person has to develop their own testimony. I'm a convert to the Church, having joined over 40 years ago in my 20s. I can't imagine being a member of any other church. And it's just SOOO frustrating seeing comments like yours, which I have seen over and over for 20 years online, ever since I got the Internet. You all say the same things I read in the anti-Mormon books I found over 40 years ago in Christian book stores, when I was first trying to learn about the church! You are all just SO WRONG, It's just so frustrating that you don't understand.
17:46 No one in our church (who is well versed in our theology, which I would say is 90% of us) will ever say that the Council of Nisea got the bible exactly right. Please see my other comment on timestamp 11:23.
I'm a convert to the LDS church, having joined over 40 years ago in my 20s. I wish I were the type to make videos and just sit there in front of the camera, showing my face and chatting away like it's nothing. It's so frustrating seeing videos by people who don't understand the Church. And really frustrating reading comments. I wish I could sit down and talk with each and every one of you.
Make videos about your conversion! About your testimony! RUclips is needing more of that.
Cindy I would love to hear more from you - would you be willing to share more ? 🙏
@@jacobbuzan374 I know, I've wanted to for years, along with videos about all kinds of other things. But I'm not the type to just sit in front of the camera and chat away. Also, I don't even have a camera.
It's unfortunate that the adversary has deceived you. he is quite cunning. Cognitive dissonance runs quite deep. I understand since I was in your shoes a few years back. 🙏 for discernment that he will open your eyes and bring you closer to Him. It may be scary and uncomfortable to think about it but once the floodgates open...there will be a lot to unpack. Much love to you, Sister.
@@Islandbaby962 🤣 same goes for you, "deceived one."
When Morgan missionaries came to my house, my mother would invite them in for a Wee cups tea’. She would also tell them that if they came I. Our house, they would leave ready to become Catholic. None came in.
That may be because we’re not allowed to drink tea, so they could’ve refused because of that.
Minor correction 2: Mormons indeed believe in eternal matter, which God only organized but did not create ex nihilo. Neither did he create our spirits. Source: King Follett Discourse.
That's still illogical. If God did not create that matter then God has a creator and is therfore not God.
@@emouselOregon No, according to this teaching matter is eternal. There is no necessity that matter has to be temporal and created by someone/ something else. It is just a different approach.
Correction. Indeed God did create our spirits as we are his spirit children.
@@emouselOregonit's turtles all the way down.
@@emouselOregon sure, and Mormons would tell you that God the Father had a Father.....yes, you are right, so did He. You want to know who the first one was in that chain? Well you don't understand eternity do you? (None of us do so we will understand after this life when we can comprehend such things). (For the record, before you jump on me - I'm Ex-LDS and not really espousing this, simply putting on my LDS had to tell you what I've been taught all my life)
In all Honesty I think being a Latterday Saint is pretty Simple. You read the Book, and maybe you get an answer, maybe in your own timing like a friend of Ours you won't get an answer *and she has never been a Latterday Saint., I am certain that Our Lord has called upon her from time to time... And Personally having spent 36 years as an Evangelical I've also never seen that Work of Art before. Have I seen things like it? Yes, especially after having become a Latterday Saint. However the Book of Mormon is a fairly simple thing in that for me I received that Witness by The Power of The Holy Ghost, and the pattern has extended beyond the book itself pointing towards a Much larger Message that is taught in Latterday Saint Temples. And though I am Confident to say that these things are of Our Heavenly Father, and Jesus Christ who are together One I have heard all manner of Criticism pertaining too the Witness I have received by various Christians that I leave it up to others to decide for themselves. But none the less I hope that you can Forebear me as we must Forebear one another as Followers of Jesus Christ. I hope you have a wonderful day.
They had no idea what they were walking into! To be fair, not everyone is cut out to be a philosopher who questions and answers the foundations of their faith.
@@tlewis84able Ask Brian about LDS Articles of Faith and he would not be able to recite. Ask which chapter and verse Brian disagrees with in the Book of Mormon… Seems he expects one way erudition
That painting really is amazing. Especially in person! So beautiful to hear how he was so moved by it. Prayed and “Ave” for that guy!
I remember i asked a mormon i ran into about Matthew 16:18 and how "the gates of hell will not prevail" doesnt contradict Mormonism
He said (paraphrasing) "It's my opinion that that passage applied solely 2 Peter"
yeah, that makes no sense lol
That's among the dumbest things I've read
Do you know what hell is?
@@scottm4975 the land of the dead and the place of torment.
Do you know what hell is?
I'm a member of the Church. The response you were given is pretty pathetic and really does not reflect our beliefs.
Our belief is that Christ, and His gospel are eternal, and that scripture is partially fulfilled in the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith, because despite the apostasy of men causing the fullness of that gospel to be lost and corrupted, it ultimately prevails both in the Restoration and the fact that good Christians continued to live that gospel to the best of their knowledge throughout the ages causing Christianity to become a worldwide religion spreading the word (the Bible) throughout the nations.
We would argue that while parts of the Gospel and the Priesthood Authority were lost, Satan never really prevailed over anything. The darkness was only temporary, and the glory of God prevails in the end, as the fullness of the Gospel will never again depart from this Earh until He returns and finishes His work.
I'm sure you won't agree with more than half of what I said, but I'm simply offering an accurate representation of our beliefs and doctrine.
@@marvalice3455 have you seen it? Have you been there? You know nothing about hell other than what you interpret it to be. Don’t pretend to understand what these things mean and then judge others by your limited understanding
Unrelated, but are there no members of The Reinforcements that do illustration, or at least have skills that can fix up generated graphics?
Also Roman Catholic. Stating that Jesus is not God is Blasphemy. You were a lot more patient with the Mormons than I would have been.
And humble, like a little child. His conversion process may still be in the early stages.
We don’t believe in the Catholic trinity. Jesus is the son of God. As such he is God, prepared to be our savior before this world was created. On earth, He prayed to His Father, not to himself.
@@knelson3326We Catholics also reject Modalism as heresy
As a former Mormon missionary turned Catholic, I truly believe the seeds were planted while proselytizing because Catholics were always the most cordial. I highly highly recommend patience with them. They are essentially just kids who are sharing what they have been taught their entire lives
We do believe Jesus is God.
I used to be Mormon - and while I can't speak for each one - I can tell you people and official texts of the church tell them not to dispute or contend with other religions, which on one hand means they are adamantly against persecuting other religions - but it also means apologetics isn't stressed - forget about polemics. Their method is ALL about expressing the positive message of their story. They are taught in their mission videos (at least by the 90s) to be especially alert to doing missionary work with the elderly and those in pain from recent loss or trauma as these groups are statistically most likely to join. They are near death or in crisis and already asking questions about what's next. Then their chief hook is the doctrine that families can be together forever. It moves on from there. But they learn their doctrine and traditions in a near vacuum because they're also taught to avoid ANYTHING that's "anti-Mormon" as that's how the devil gets in. The only reason they talked to you was they thought they might be able to convert you. OH yah - and the text for the class for new converts specifically tells you that you are not to interpret scripture or doctrine for yourself, but to seek the answers they'll give. Given how much interpretation and context is needed for the Bible - that doesn't sound too bad - but it's a defensible position - set into a context that overall feels more like being forbidden to think for yourself than to act with prudence. Also, they don't explain the instruction. They don' talk about how critical it is to understand Jewish and ancient Israeli culture and history in order to understand the meaning of the books of the Bible or how layered the meaning of different words is and that there are armies of people who've studied this and lent it to the interpretation of the "cliff's notes" that is the Biblical text - and then that interpretation was subjected to centuries of meditation, debate, and dispute to arrive at the current understanding. Instead they a) have none of that for their scriptures - and they also tell you not to think it our for yourself.
Brian, my older brother is a real wit. One time he saw them coming down the road and changed into his bathrobe and grabbed a can of beer. When they rang the bell, he said, “I’ve been watching you. I insist you come in.”
They backed away, never too return. Haha!
@@rosezingleman5007 What a weirdo. A coward does such things. He could not defend his faith so played dress up.
@@suem6004 no mormon has ever successfully defended the conman joeseph "moron" smith
Well that's not nice. And what gets me is that I have ranted against alcohol for decades online. One of the things that ATTRACTED me to the Church years ago was knowing Mormons don't drink.
The first Council of Nicaea was organized to establish doctrine as many had differing views. This is the first indication that apostasy was in full effect as all of the apostles had been killed and many that had been converted at one time distorted or used gods word for their own well being . Examples of this are infant baptism, selling of indulgences and the inquisitions.
I’d be surprised if any public schooled kid regardless of religion would know anything about that painting. The difference between a missionary and an average kid is that the missionary would be more likely to be fascinated with the religious symbolism. As an LDS mom I’m striving to teach my kids to see and appreciate art and world religions. I did a whole homeschool unit on the Madonna and Christian symbolism in art (you’re not gonna get that in public school ;). That said, it’s the missionary’s educational and family culture background, not the state or religion he’s from that determines their art appreciation :)
I’m Catholic and I agree with you. I just wrote a comment mentioning that the sheer number of naked or near-naked figures in the art is mind-boggling. It would be especially to a young person who hasn’t been to museums or looked into art history. If I may, I’d like to recommend you look online for videos by Elizabeth Lev. She’s an art historian who lives in Rome, and obviously loves art and is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic. She’s a joy to watch. Maybe you’d like to incorporate one of her lessons into your program?
@@MarilynBoussaid-yd1vk Thank you!
The Great Apostasy happened over centuries. It began while the original 12 apostles were still alive, and then continued as centuries passed. So much was changed from the original Christian church to what it became.
Amen.
Tried to make a nice comment before and it got taken down within seconds with no explanation. Just testing here to see if it happens again.
I wouldn't read into it. I run a decent sized channel and I get comments like this too, and I don't delete them. Sometimes they just disappear or they get held by youtube. Sometimes I get the notification via email and I'll go to respond but it won't even be there on the page. So it's very possible it's just a glitch. Peace :)
1) These questions are all extremely answerable 2)there arent formal apologetics in the LDS faith the way you would expect. It exists and it is well documented but it is only read by fellow members of the faith so there are no illusions of the idea of conversion through argument, such a thing is antithetical to the gospel and contrary to the Holy Spirit. There’s no debate clubs, such things would be viewed as unbecoming and a waste of time, so you were probably talking to a nice well meaning neighbor who happened to go with the missionaries that day, or a different missionary swapped in as they regularly do about every month.
I was raised mormon but i joined the army rather than becoming a missionary. I finally left that goofy cult a few years ago and joined the true, holy catholic and apostolic church this easter season. Thank God for saving me from the despair i felt after leaving that ridiculous religion. So many former mormons are so turned off by religion after seeing the blatant lies and nonsense that mormonism teaches. I almost went down that path myself. Now i seek to help former mormons find truth in Christ's real church.
Good for you!!!
Thank you, Brian! I always learn and gain some food for thought from your posts.
To have a chat with Robert Boylan or Blake Ostler. They have have plenty of answers for you.
Missionaries aren't taught to debate though many of us have been are and will be sucked into debates. I was no longer a missionary. But yes we believe Heavenly Father has a body. We believe He's eternal. We do view eternal differently than many. But do we believe there was a time God didn't have a body? Wasn't a God? I would say we do but it was before our existence and so to us in our realm of time He has no beginning. I know the author of this video disagrees most likely and that's fine let us disagree with respect. He asked a respectful question I wanted to give an answer. Simple as that. We do believe in an apostasy and the fullness of the gospel was lost with the death of the Apostles but pieces remained. So why did Christ tell Peter he was the rock he was built on and the gate of Hell wouldn't prevail against the Apostles? Well Jesus values the worth of every soul there were many that died faithful to the gospel of Christ as taught them by the Apostles. There were many who were forever saved in the Kingdom of God because of it. To Jesus those souls were worth it. Saying the Catholic Church or the bodies of men that put The Bible together were all together evil is painting to broad of brush. Some were righteous but confused some were evil and others were good according to the standards they deemed to be necessary as most groups of people. We believe The Bible because its authors were men of God with authority from God that served to reveal His word to His people. So do we believe the men put it together were completely correct in the way they did it? No but what they did put in is good and from God. We also believe there are many plan and precious things missing. We also don't believe the Song Of Solomon to be scripture. That 1 isn't talked about much but it's not. Yes we practiced polygamy and our doctrine still supports the practice when commanded by God. We never have changed and condemned Joseph or Brigham. We just have been told not to have multiple wives at this time. Remember Brigham said or have faith in it. I do at the height of polygamy about 10% of our members were involved with it. The other 90% believed in it but did not practice and weren't damned.
Hi Brian, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and an appreciator of your content. I like Catholics. Be advised: you will never have this kind of deep philosophical discussion with an 18-year-old missionary because that's not their job. They are there to preach the simplicity of the true Gospel to those who want to hear it. You won't find a lot of people who have read enough Aquinas to even have the discussion you seem to be hoping for, amongst our educated adults of our faith, because it's really not that interesting to us, religiously speaking. Any philosophical debate about the nature of God, the shape of reality, and so on, must start with certain first principles that will always be limited by mortal understanding. That means it's fun to engage in and often informative, but it is not the way to reach real truth. Real truth is given by God through revelation. If God says he is eternal, that he created the world, and that he has a physical body, then all three things are true and it's our job to figure out how that works. Discounting revelation because of flaws in our understanding or the thoroughness of our philosophical inquiry is dangerous, especially considering what the Lord said about the wisdom of the learned.
I'm sure we could have fun discussions about all these points but I have a bone to pick with your complaint about polygamy. The official declaration you paraphrase in which polygamy was ended as a practice clearly says that 'if it was the will of God we persist, we shall fearlessly continue and suffer the consequences.' The Lord's revelation was that its purpose was met and should be discontinued as a practice. There is ongoing debate about how to interpret some statements by early Church leaders, and how well they understood what the Lord intended in the first place, but no doctrine was changed. Many respected biblical figures had more than one wife, such as Abraham and Jacob. Modern revelation clarifies that it's a practice the Lord typically does not allow, except under certain circumstances.
And let's be honest here--the development of the doctrine of the Trinity was a process of refinement (and if you believe in it, slow divine influence to push people in the right direction), and wasn't codified until nearly three centuries had passed after the death and resurrection of Jesus. The reason they needed the council of Nicaea was specifically because not everyone had the same ideas about God's nature, even that late. I think you can generously allow my Church some of the same grace in working out our own doctrine, by the grace and guidance of God.
You clearly don't know how an ecumenical council functions then. The teaching of the trinity was always the standard teaching, which is why majority of the bishops and early Christians were taken back by the Arian heresy spreading. It needed to be addressed and the council calls for bishops from all over, they pray for the Spirit to guide them (the Holy Spirit is infallible) and they coined a term to simply explain a teaching that has already existed and was already well known amongst the early Christians.
Fellow Latter-day Saint (Mormon) here. I agree completely. Certainly, many missionaries are sheltered and understand their religion less than they should. However, when I served my mission in Chile, I found many catholics and protestants to be similarly ignorant.
I doubt that it's a good idea to use the lack of theological understanding of some adherents to attack a religion as a whole. Moreover, our Lord's ministry seems as strong of an example as any that theological learning is not the source of our salvation.
The problem is that the questions he asked to the Mormons were not nitpicky technical questions demanding specific answers. They were simply trying to understand holes in the basic logic of the religion. His question about why Mormons accept the Bible was not philosophical but more a question of history. And anyone can claim their message is God's. The question is, is their reason to believe it is with these apparent problems?
One of the biggest holes in modern denominations is pattern recognition.
Peter of the synoptic Gospels was a very different person from Peter of the Book of Peter. It is evident that many things he recorded in his Book were not evident to him during Christ's ministry.
It's an odd argument to make to discount the arguments of the LDS youth missionaries unless you've thought seriously about the issue.
@@HaleStorm49 The point is that there were many other manuscripts but you guys choose the ones the Catholics finalized on, fully trusting their decision and authority without even realizing it
It's important to recognize what the young Latter-day Saint missionaries are called to do: to testify of Christ and to baptize those who receive the testimony of Jesus through the ministry of the Holy Ghost. That's it.
They will try their best to address theological and doctrinal concerns, but they are not called to be philosophers and theologians! They are called to testify, through the power of the Holy Ghost, that God speaks again through prophets and apostles, that through them He has restored His Church and priesthood to the earth, and that anyone can receive a spiritual witness of this if he asks God in sincere prayer to reveal it.
This approach may seem naive or foolish or ineffective to those steeped in theology and philosophy, but it's important to remember that, for all they have to teach us, philosophy and theology are not revelation; they are temporal disciplines that rely on limited human reason. That doesn't mean we necessarily abandon them, but it does mean that, for believers, philosophy and theology shouldn't be the foundation of our faith -- we cannot build our house upon such shifting, sandy foundations. We must build it upon the rock of Christ, through revelation, the testimony of Jesus given by the Holy Spirit.
The missionaries don't need an education in philosophy or theology to testify of Christ -- however, philosophy and theology can close us off to the Spirit.
If you want to know whether or not the missionaries' message is true, you have to ask God. Philosophy won't help you; theology won't help you. Only a sincere and faith-filled petition to the source.
Knock, and it will be opened unto you.
I have something better than philosophy and theology: Logic and reason
@@RichLunaMusic Neither of which comes through in your comment. Your ability to deploy buzzwords in a snarky reply, though, is pretty decent! Subtle, understated, almost imperceptibly effective...
Former Mormon here. Yes. Young missionaries are not very knowledgeable of their own true history. They just stick to the script. I am now dabbling in Catholicism. Very informative.
13:26 Protestants on this issue could say "we have OT from the Jews, most of NT was accepted in all local Churches, a few books who weren't had even so been accepted by most of the Church, most local Churches, therefore this near consensus on each NT book goes back to the Apostles" ... the one Apostolic tradition not corrupted.
Even from a Catholic view, each book was inspired and accepted by parts of the Church as such, as soon as it was written and given by writer to destination. So, for each book, infallible Apostolic tradition precedes the decisions in Rome, Carthage and Hippo.
Brian, please read Stephen Webb and Alonzo Gaskill's debate discussion on Catholicism and LDS. Called. Catholic and Mormon a theological conversation. Webb also wrote on Mormon Christianity. Webb was Catholic and a prof of theology. But once he stopped the stereotypes and non serious reading about the theology, he was opened to a mind blowing, theologically congruent, rational theology. I am happy to send you a copy of Catholic and Mormon and can put you in touch with one of the authors. Brian, maybe you need to read the actual texts and study from an apologetics perspective. The missionaries are forbidden to debate and argue as God never shows up in contention. But I am very well read in Catholicism as an LDS lady and we have MUCH more in common than either of us with heretic protestants. Please feel free to DM if you wish a deeper theological discussion.
Good discussion Brian. I Peter 3:15 teaches us to "sanctify the Lord God in our hearts, and to be ready to give answer to those who ask, the reason for the Hope that is in us, in all peace and humility." When approached by anyone outside our Faith this should be our guide. But at the same time, there are so many educated and truth seeking Mormons, it amazes me that they continue to give even a moment's credit to the teachings of Joseph Smith; but they have their Book of Mormon and the Rules and Order when Christ alone is sufficient and always will be.
We LDS have more light and knowledge. More Christ. We will not give up more light and knowledge for superstition and smells and bells religion run by pedophiles.
@Marisajohnson: Hi Marisa,im lds also. I would recommend Robert Boylen, over Jacob Hansen. Even Jacob admits that Robert is our best apologist. Robert is brilliant in knowing the Catholic church history and the lds church.
I second that. Robert Boylan is brilliant.
@@awfulwaffle1341 absolutely, the best.
I haven't seen anyone quite as knowledgeable. Brian needs to make a video with him.
Why not just answer the challenges with clear answers from your LDS teachings, instead of deferring to individuals whose opinions can later be abandoned as “not revelation”?
@@jeanpommes For one, because one of the common pitfalls is differences in theological language. It can be very frustrating trying to discuss concepts with someone who has a completely different understanding of a term… or worse an understanding that is _just_ different enough to cause a complete muddle that neither side catches.
Excellent video!!!
My personal encounters with Mormons and cause me to have considerable respect for them, though I also find their doctrines flimsy. I've found the Mormons I've encountered to be admirably decent people. They have produced their share of violent outlaws, gifted con-artists and other anti-social types, but so do all sects. I got to know a couple of them in law school who were highly educated and very high functioning indeed, even brilliant.
I assume Trey Parker and Matt Stone are not practicing LDS members. I think they are among the best contemporary satirists of our nation, perhaps the best. In 2012 Mitt Romney's Mormonism made me hesitant to support him, which I feel very silly about now for what I think are obvious reasons.
According to Wikipedia, there is no mention of either having ever been Mormon, so I think you are likely correct.
Parker and Stone were never members from what I recall (maybe their family somewhere was, but not them). Mittens (Mitt Romeny) is to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as Joe Biden is to Catholicism. They are both highly corrupt politicians who are religious in name only.
@@brettmajeske3525they weren’t ever affiliated on any level, one just dated an LDS girl in high school.
Trey Parker and Matt Stone, to my knowledge, have never been Mormon. They grew up among a large Mormon population, but we're never LDS. Parker had a fascination with the LDS church, but no conviction. Their opinions of Morons are that they are good nice people, but the religion is bonkers. They won't accept the doctrine but like the folks who do.
4:37 I'm not sure why this is so contradictory to you. Do you not believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead with a perfected resurrected body? If you do, do you not believe that resurrected Christ is not eternal?
Being eternal and physical do not have to be mutually exclusive. I figured the resurrected Christ would be enough to illustrate this, but let me expand on it a little more. We know from the Law of Conservation of Mass that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Similar Law applies to energy, but maybe that's a different conversation. The point is that clearly matter can be eternal as well, but that doesn't mean that matter has to be restricted to the laws of space and time. Look at electrons for example. Thanks to quantum mechanics, we understand that electrons don't behave the same way that physical matter behaves in the visible world. Serendipitously, science ended up confirming our theology that Jesus Christ, under the direction of God the Father, created the heavens and the earth (and all the things therein - not all matter). We believe that in the work of the Creation, the Lord organized elements that had already existed. He did not create the world “out of nothing,” as some people believe. I think sometimes we tend to extrapolate things in the bible. For example, where it says that God the Father created all things through His Son, we extrapolate that to mean that he created all matter when in reality the authors of the bible would have no concept of what "matter" even is and likely would have meant "all things in the physical world (the universe) and in heaven" rather than "all matter generally." To think that we would use the bible as any form of scientific explanation is intellectually dishonest in my opinion, as that was not its intended subject matter. For example, I wouldn't go to a cookbook to find an explanation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
To me that's enough to make logical sense of this part of the theology. That being said, I wouldn't think to limit God's ability and power to our current level of understanding of physics. There is so much more to understand that we haven't even tapped into yet.
Jesus became incarnate in physical form, but the Word always was (as John 1) says prior to becoming flesh. So physical form isn't his necessary state except voluntarily. Otherwise he couldn't have created all that is, as John 1 claims he did.
The Bible does not state ex nihilo. The LDS view is that God's body is perfect, eternal, and indestructible and must have such a form to be God, it is an essential component of Godhood. Indeed, one purpose for man is to obtain a body by being born on Earth. This is a marker of progression/power between Man and the devils who are condemned to eternal spiritual form.
Matter exists and is ordered by God. God does not create matter in the Mormon view. The Bible does not state that God created everything in the way in which we imagine. God's creation in Genesis is Earth-centric, it does not speak of the universe as we know it, the heavens are Earth-centric and limited in that sense. So, God can be the creator of all we know and see but also caused by something outside that space. Also, given material is made up of that which cannot be seen including atomic, and subatomic particles, and in the Mormon sense spirit, then there really is no contradiction. This physical world did not cause God to be, but a physical world and an endless process of creation, redemption, salvation, and sanctification caused him to be. That God is the creator of all that we know can exist within this idea, as long as we are open to endless creations, possibly in ways we do not see, i.e., the multi-verse, multiple dimensions, infinite universes etc... Modern physics currently is exploring all of this, which fits well within Mormon doctrine.
Concerning Divine Simplicity. Aside from it directly contradicting multiple passages in the bible that describe the physical parts and attributes of God, and Christ himself, the man God, we must wonder that this concept is firmly lodged in Greek philosophy not the teachings of the prophets or Christ. The unchanged, unmovable mover that cannot be known and is inexpressible, contrasts very much with the God of the Bible. And if this is the being YWH, one wonders how such a force cares for anyone or anything and why that would be so?
Mormon doctrine is one of eternal progression and famously there is the quote, "You are as I once was and I am as you may become". God was once human and went through all that man goes through progressing to his present state. The eternal nature of being is another question and ultimately is unanswerable.
In traditional Christianity, the idea of a God of spirit, unmovable and outside of time and space, poses significant questions in terms of his ability to do anything or why he would want to. It also speaks to an existence of eternal boredom and stagnation. All of this is not really grounded in Judeo-Christian original teachings but upon Neo-Platonism.
The concept of the Trinity is also fabricated and non-Biblical. The idea of Christ being flesh and God and yet praying to his father, who he gives glory to and is temporarily abandoned by, as well as the end state of the three in one God, is so problematic as to boggle any comprehension. It's all a mystery.
The teachings of Christ are fundamentally lost very quickly after his death and those of the apostles. This is undeniable and one must be historically ignorant of Church dogma and traditions which come late and fly in the face of the simple faith and church established by Christ and his disciples. Also, if the Church did continue, when comes the great apostacy spoken of and foretold in the scriptures? Also, what about the whole of mankind left without the word of God for millennia prior to the birth of Jesus and still left unaware of him in India and China and the Muslim/atheist world but previously in the pagan landscape? Is a small sliver of Jews and then Christians enough?
Of course, it is a profound failure that Christ's word fell, much as that of God's word failed in the Garden and then again with the Flood and again with the Tower of Bable etc...Man always has the choice to accept or reject God and frequently has chosen the latter.
The Gates of Hell will not prevail ultimately against Christ's church but in the short-term Lucifer wins. The Great Apostasy emerges after the Apostles are dead and shortly thereafter when their authority also disappears and multiple false doctrines arrive, which destroy the essence of Christ's message. He is no liar.
The KJV is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. That is the Mormon view and of course, it has not been. Also, numerous books referenced in the Bible as scripture are absent, so we know we have an incomplete version. Exactly right that the Bible did not exist at the death of Christ and was only composed by committee and indeed still exists in multiple forms throughout Christendom, and these decisions as to what would be in the canon and what was excluded, was a secular decision and ultimately made by a Roman emperor, and pagan, Constantine. So, how does any of that work for traditional Christianity? Yes, the Apostasy accounts for the Bible, which is why it is a mess and often self-contradictory. The Mormon Church does not believe that all the men engaged in the creation of the Bible were evil or that even most of them were. It holds that they were engaged in a work which was not under Christ's authority. Good men (generally and with the obvious exception) doing the best they could and creating a flawed work which is in need of revision and expansion.
Mormons trump all of this by having modern-day Prophets and revelation as well as additional scripture.
Young's pronouncements on Polygamy and other topics as well, were not canonized by the Church. Every word that comes from a man who is a prophet, secular leader, etc...is not the same as that coming through revelation. This means his views were his individual opinions and not those of the Church. That is a big difference. Prophets through the ages have had similar difficulties. Obviously, Popes also have a lot of issues in this regard. Still, the polygamy doctrine is a good criticism.
Also, regarding bowing to the pressures of secular authorities, one need only look at the role of Constantine in the formation of many essential Church doctrines. One could also mention the secular influence of Charlemagne who essentially transformed the role the Church in the West v. that of the East where the Emperor (very secular power) held final authority over the Church in his empire, dogma, doctrine, appointments of priests, bishops and even the Archbishop of Constantinople. We also ought to acknowledge the Great Schism of 1054 and the secular components there and why this great division between East and West exists. I don't think this criticism holds very well in light of these historical deficiencies.
Brian doesn't understand the role of LDS missionaries. They are not apologetics like he is. They are just there to share their beliefs and not talk about theories or too many details. They are only teenagers. Basically, they share their beliefs and ask people to pray about it. Their formula is that if what they are sharing is true, then God is going to testify to those who sincerely want to know the truth. If you have already determined in your mind that they are not sharing truth, then you don't get an answer. They can't possibly answer every question you give them. They are teenagers doing their best. Give them a break.
At 5:05 “both science and the Bible tell us”….
Where in science is it said something can come from nothing? I thought even in the Big Bang there was something in a very tiny compact space that then exploded.
Also where in science can matter be completely destroyed? Doesn’t it just change form, like there’s some matter left over or transformation of the atoms?
True
The problem with this is that the Catholic answer isn’t any better. To give some teenagers a very profound doctrinal question is not really fair. They are not religious scholars:philosophers. They are just every day people sharing what they believe.
It’s not surprising that the missionary hadn’t seen a cathedral before. Missionaries come from all walks of life. He could have been from a rural farm or was not well traveled. What’s wrong with that?
I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with my faith, but I do disagree with the points you made.
1) The Great Apostasy happened because of both the members at the time after the deaths of the Apostles couldn't properly fulfill all the Priesthood responsibilities, and also when the Roman government took over the leadership. Constantine basically merged the Roman pagan religion with Christianity. The early Christians were originally more Jewish in nature.
2) In early Doctrine, God is described to have a physical body. Also, God created this universe 🌌 in his likeness, meaning that there was both a time before the original existence of this universe that God existed in, and there was physical material that was out there, because something cannot be made of absolutely nothing.
3) We believe that the Holy Bible is the word of God, as long as it's Translate correctly. Also, the Jewish people started the organizing of what we called the Bible now, the early Christians put together the New Testament. The Catholic leaders wouldn't allow the average man to own a copy, until way after the Protestant Reformation started making copies available to the public, and the Kingdoms of Europe started having early translations into the local languages.
4)Polygamy was practiced in the time of the Old Testament by the Prophets and Kings of Israel, God commanded the practice, only wicked men abused it. It's only ended after Christianity became Romanized. The Prophet Wilford Woodruff ended the practice because God said it was time to stop, not just because the US government said so.
Thank you for taking the time to read 📖 my comment. I do believe and know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church, restored in modern days. I also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that God helped him to translate the Book of Mormon into English, and restore the Priesthood so we can be blessed and give others blessings. I am grateful that we have Temples, to practice the full laws of God once again. I hope you can come and listen again, and be more open minded to the teachings. I know God will bless you if you do.
And I say these things, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. 🙏
Where did God command polygamy in the bible?
I stopped after your first point. Ill finish after i make this statement. Your dealing with 18 to 19 year olds whos job is to share not debate. At the MTC we are not taught to be apologests or how to debate but to share the gospel of Jesus Christ. We do believe the bible to be the word of God as far as its been translated correctly. As far as the elder not seeing the painting before blame the school systems of today not some notion that we are sheltered here in Utah I learned all about Michael Angelo when i was in school and love his work to me he is the great master. When i was a missionary over 40 years ago in Kansas and Missouri i enjoyed those who just wanted to talk i enjoyed learning about other faiths. I remember a very cordial conversation we had with a Methodists minister. He told us his beliefs and asked what ours were no debating just a good conversation between. Now as fare as the missionaries bringing some big apologest with them is not what we do. We often bring local members such as the ward mission leader so that people get to know the local members because missionaries are only in areas for a few months before they are sent to another area. Now your comments on our belief of God is nonsensical. The bible doesn't teach that God created everything out of nothing thats just physically impossible but it does teach as you indicated that he mad3 it from things that are unseen such as adams and molecules which cannot be seen but with the aid of powerful instruments. From the genisis story in my opinion it was not Gods intention of God to tell us exactly how he created this world, which explanation would be entirely over the heads of our ancestors who thouth that our heart was are brain. They had a very limited understanding of their world so he gave them enough to understand that He was the creator of it. Now ive writen so much i dont know if ive made any sense
Brian just wanted boasting points. He is a fake Christian. Not a truth seeker. Not pious. Just wants intellectual mumbo jumbo in his crumbling church.
@suem6004 Sorry Brian rattled your cage Snowflake
D&C 93 is a section that we do not discuss super often at church, but it definitely provides the answer to his question. D&C 93 talks about intelligence, light and truth and all of us that was not created. So not only does it imply that there was part of God that is eternal, it teaches that there is parts of each of use that was not created. There is light, truth and intelligence that God took and used to form our spirits. So, have we eternally been in the form that we are now? no. but there are parts of us that are eternal. However, as my friend @kip2703 shared, we don't focus on apologetics or anything of the sort. Most Sundays we just discuss how the atonement of Jesus Christ applies in our lives and how we can better access that power in our lives through receiving revelation and following God's commandments.
that's the main objection I have to the Chosen - even though it seems to be a good series, there is a LOT of LDS funding involved...
The Chosen went off the rails this season. I am very uncomfortable with the show now.
@@christinereich6050 I haven't been following it, what happened? Did it get really heterodox?
@walter1383 no it got more catholic if anything. Shows one part of the hail mary prayer and shows Jesus establishing His church on Peter.
Angel Studios was distributing the show but they are no longer connected, are they? I haven't been following it closely but I did enjoy the first seasons, accepting it for what it is and on its own terms.
@@sethlikes2lift They quoted the Bible.
Very good video, thank you for being respectful all times.
Wow! is that really your living room ?
8:33 Is it a surprising concept that the people who led the church to conduct the inquisitions, and all the other atrocities committed by the (apostatized) church? We don't believe that the gates of hell prevailed against the church Christ established, though I can see why that can be the conclusion that some who don't understand our theology can come to. Let me explain.
We believe that even though the keys of the kingdom were lost when the apostles were killed and the apostolic foundation of the church on earth was destroyed, the gospel continued to be preached in the spirit world. 1 Peter 3:19 and 1 Peter 4:6 teach us two very important things. One is that there is a spirit world. Two is that the gospel is being taught to those spirits. In the world of the spirits, spirits can either be in a state of spiritual prison (as in 1 Peter 3:19) or in a state of spiritual paradise (see Luke 23:43) as the Savior told the second criminal on the cross he would be with him in that very day (clearly paradise couldn't have been heaven as Jesus didn't go to heaven until what day? Give you a hint, it wasn't the first day). We also see 1 Corinthians 15:29 as evidence that in God's plan, He provided a way for those who are taught the gospel in the spirit world (including those who didn't have a chance to receive it in this life) can choose to accept ordinances performed for them by proxy. This makes sense that God wouldn't condemn someone who hasn't heard the gospel to eternal torment.
Now regarding the great apostasy. To me personally it isn't too much of a stretch to see the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic church and say that the church fell away. But we also scriptures that say this would happen.
Acts 3:20-21 - He shall send Jesus Christ whom the heavens will receive until the time of the Restitution of all things. Restitution is another word for restoration.
2 Thessalonians 2 -Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming-The gospel prepares men for eternal glory.
As a Latter-day Saint/ long time listener, I have a question with regards to your first point:
Don't Catholics believe that God the Son is embodied? That Jesus, post resurrection, ascended into Heaven and that he maintains his glorified body to this day?
If so, what's so repugnant about our claim that God the Father is embodied? We never said he has always been embodied (that's an unwarranted extrapolation you made).
If you yourselves admit that God can take on physical form (the incarnation is like the central claim of Christianity after all), then I don't see anything inherently wrong with our claim that God is embodied.
I've wondered this for a long time (other Catholic content creators have made the same objections). Would love to hear your thoughts
Now, our denial of the Trinity is a different story. I think it's totally fair to take issue with that claim as a Catholic Christian, and I would not attempt to disabuse you of that inclination.
Jesus does not "maintain" his glorified body as Superman maintains his Clark Kent disguise. The Second Person of the Trinity *became* man at a particular place and time. Fully God and fully Man he remains forever. Also, there is nothing "repugnant" about God the Father becoming man, it is simply *not* a Christian (or Jewish) belief.
Bingo, you hit the nail on the head
@@stevenfaludi4862 This comment strikes me as irrelevant. Though you nuance it, you just reaffirm my point (you believe God the Son has a body).
@@ethanf.237 There is a difference between (1) God appearing in the form of a man (ie Superman / Clark Kent) (2) God was always a man, and (3) God *becoming* a man for the sake of man.
Christians believe (3). Also, flesh and blood are far too frail for eternity. Christians also believe in a bodily resurrection with a (glorified) body that is suitable for eternity.
St. Paul makes this crystal clear in 1 Cor 15:35-58
Another inconsistency with the idea of apostasy is that the LDS also believe that John the Apostle didn’t die and was allowed to live on and minister the gospel until the 2nd Coming (basically becoming immortal). Why would John allow the true church to become corrupt and fall into apostasy if he remained alive?
Grasias for sharing
I watched this video two days ago and just yesterday I had a conversation with two LDS missionaries. I didn't have much time to talk, but since apostolic succession was one of the key "selling points" in my conversion to Catholicism, I brought up the "great apostasy" argument and why I believed almost the exact opposite.
The Pope claims no apostolic keys, and yet Catholics seem to think he does.
@@lw1959He doesn’t have to, as that was settled when Jesus gave the keys to Peter and his successors. ”You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matthew 16:18-19) Here Jesus gives the keys to Peter and says that whatever Peter decides is what Heaven decides, and he says he will protect his Church from Satan. We need to know which Church this is, as Jesus prayed in the garden that we would all be one, not many.
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.” (1Timothy 3:15) Notice St. Paul says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. So, what Church is it?
Paul instructed the faithful to teach people who would be able to teach others, passing on the one, true faith of Jesus. “And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.” (2 Tim 2:2) This faith, this Catholic religion, has been passed on from Jesus’s teachings through the Apostles, and all the way to the current day, uninterrupted.
Paul warned the Galatians not to be swayed by new false doctrines. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!” (Galatians 1:8-9) The Mormon religion is one of these new religions with false doctrines, because angels supposedly came down in 1820 and told Joseph Smith what to believe, which wasn’t the same as the doctrines the Catholic Church has taught from the beginning, it being the first Christian church. There has never been any major apostasy, like Mormons believe. I suggest you read the Apostolic Fathers, who were authors of early Christian works dating primarily from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries, who were known to, or considered to have had personal relationships with the Apostles. They are easy to read because they were written to Then there is another group called the Early Church Fathers, or just Church Fathers, which includes the previous group, but they come after them, from about A.D. 100 to about A.D. 800. You can find an extensive a list of both on newadvent(dot)org.
I suggest beginning with the Apostolic Fathers for 2 reasons. “First, they have undisputable apologetic value as witnesses to unwritten apostolic Tradition. Second, they are, for the most part, simple, pastoral men like the apostles and are therefore easy to understand. You don’t need to take a course in Platonic philosophy to make sense of their writings. In fact, many of the documents of this period follow the same basic format as what we’re already used to in the New Testament: pastoral letters and “acts” of the martyrs.” (Excerpt from Catholic Answers) I hope you will read and see how the Church Christ founded was and is the Catholic Church. God bless you.
I never considered LDS a Christian denomination. They dont have a Biblical worldview
They don’t believe in the Trinity either, as far as I’m aware.
Explain a biblical word view
@@John_the_Paulbecause the trinity is nonsense
@@frenchfriedfish1990 a worldview which is coherent with either the literal meaning of scripture, the spiritual meaning of scripture.
The literal meaning in this context means what the human writer meant when he wrote. The spiritual in this context means the entirety of what God meant and explicitly includes the literal.
Mormons reject the literal meaning of scripture on numerous levels, such as Trinity as revealed by scripture, God's transcendence over the universe and the indefatigability of the church.
@@scottm4975 there is nothing contrary to reason in the Trinity.
11:23 This clarification may help. We believe that the Bible is the word of God in so much as it is translated correctly. I have seen verses in the bible change the entire meaning depending on the translation you're looking at. You point out something important in that the Bible is a collection of books that were compiled into the Bible much later after they were written. We believe that while the books that are contained in the King James bible are good and true (as long as they are translated correctly), there is a very real possibility that many scriptures that are the word of God didn't make it into the Bible. This to me is evidenced by all the books of scripture that are referenced in the bible that are nowhere to be found in the bible. Here are just a few examples.
The Book of Jasher: Mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18, it is implied to be a collection of poetry. Various texts claim to be this lost book, but its authenticity remains debated.
The Book of the Wars of the Lord: Referenced in Numbers 21:14, it is also cited in the Book of Jasher as a collaborative record written by Moses, Joshua, and the children of Israel.
The Chronicles of the Kings of Israel and Judah: Mentioned in 1 Kings 14:19 and 29, these books describe events during the reigns of Kings Jeroboam of Israel and Rehoboam of Judah, respectively.
The Book of Shemaiah the Prophet and Story of the Prophet Iddo: Mentioned in the Second Book of Chronicles, these books have been lost to history, except for their titles.
The Manner of the Kingdom (3 Samuel): Referenced in 1 Samuel 10:25.
The Acts of Solomon: Mentioned in 1 Kings 11:41.
The Annals of King David: Referenced in 1 Chronicles 27:24.
The Book of Samuel the Seer: Mentioned in 1 Chronicles 29:29, possibly the same as 1 and 2 Samuel.
The Book of Nathan the Prophet: Referenced in 1 Chronicles 29:29 and 2 Chronicles 9:29
Another example is Enoch, who seemed like a pretty key figure in the history of human's relationship with God as he "walked with God", yet we have no further records of him besides that he walked with God.
I would invite you to reach out to Thoughtful Faith for a proper conversation (or debate if you want to engage that way) in regards to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I understand that you've presented what seem like contradictions, but not only can these aspects be clarified, but even bolder ones than what you've encountered so far can be made as well (for example: "The Deuteronomist De-Christianizing of the Old Testament" by Kevin Christensen shows that the Bible was robbed of plain and precious truths about Christ even before His Mortal Ministry)
These comments here are so infuriating. People just want us Mormons to "see the light" and leave the Church. So frustrating! Here I spent so long learning all about the Church and gaining a testimony, and I joined it over 40 years ago in my 20s, it was a HUGE decision for me, and people here just want us to LEAVE the Church.