It is interesting that the secular critique of the sexual revolution reaches the same conclusion that my late father-in-law, Richard Udry, reached after a multi-year study of maternity and sexuality. His advice "You want a healthy family and society? Live like your grandparents or great-grandparents depending on your age: No children until marriage, no children outside of marriage, stay married, raise your children together."
Extraordinary conversation. Louise "using technology to solve our problems, it takes the onus off just doing the right thing. Weve abandoned any effort to control men". That was like a gut punch to hear. The stark confrontation of an aspect of human nature
That's why I believe most men will never reproduce anymore. Women will use sperm donours, men will consume porn. Men and women won't date anymore. Women will have to abort boys if they want to live safely, the remaining ones will be dealt with and managed with porn.
I have never been more happy to be interrupted by advertising. Watched the entire program and took notes. Quality programming - with brave and honest questions and answers. Worthy programming addressing today’s tough issues!
The staging and videography of this discussion is fantastic. I love the lightbulb motif, and the lighting creates a real sense of immediacy and intimacy that really allows the viewer to focus on what is being said. Wonderful work, as always!
It's good to have conversations like this one. And I'm delighted to hear that for once it doesn't seem to idealise the olden days too much. The olden days weren't better. In fact they were so bad that they gave birth to the sexual revolution - out of frustration, injustice and a lot of suffering, this crazy thing was born. People in the past weren't more moral, they did all of the immoral stuff, but they hid them better, and they blamed the victims even more. The way to fix it isn't to go back to what used to be, but to build something new, a new way that takes what's good and worthy from both the tradition and the modernity. As for Christianity, perhaps if for the first time in 2000 years it starts really practicing the teachings of Jesus, instead of arguing about dogmas, perhaps this could help bring about a Christian renaissance. I'm praying for that actually 😊
Glad to hear someone taking a more objective and dispassionate look. Not a woman's issue or a man's issue, but a human issue. Honestly, though, I don't see how to alter a direction once it's gone. Information travels the path of least resistance at the speed of light. Good luck competing with that.I can live with status quo, it's the "devil I know", but anything, anything that even suggests of moving to a more authoritarian culture, for whatever reason worries me. Once, just once, I don't want to see it go toward the "right". Counter revolutions are never pretty and never deliver what they promise and if they do, the price is never worth it.
Most economists can explain that there are no perfect systems, only tradeoffs. If the tradeoffs before the sexual revolution were not intolerable, the sexual revolution would never have happened.
Sooo much here. In college 1969-1973, married/children, today our daughter and son with 5 grandkids...I grew up with feminism, liberation and abortion. :) Would love to be part of this discussion. Thanks for raising so many important topics related to sexual relations in the modern world.
I wish more people in journalism and the research community had the intellectual honesty of Louise Perry. She started off wholeheartedly subscribing to progressive ideas about male/female relationships, but then was confronted by data illustrating the peril that such ideas produce. Instead of ignoring the data, she changed her thought process as a result of the data. Unfortunately, many people, due to fealty to their political tribe, will ignore data that is inconvenient to the narrative they espouse.
My wife and I have always used the Billings Method to plan our family. When I explain this to my friends they think it is quite weird and often ask whether I have a plan to be 'fixed up' as if fertlility is a condition. I feel that the psychology of natural family planning lends itself to a chaste life as well as an openess to life. The general reliance on the pill and vasectomies, has made sexual relations and planning a family a much more impersonal and industrial process. Thank you so much for this important discussion.
Not sure what the method you referred to exactly is but I can imagine it’s about counting days, which is what I’ve done for 13 years in between and post two daughters. I would say it works perfectly with regular cycle. Never taken any contraceptives (tried it once immediately after my first baby and it drove me nuts). It’s mind boggling the things people take so matter of factly that really are not and which pharmaceutical companies keep taking advantage of at the expense of our health and happiness.
I would like to offer the idea that those who wrote our Declaration of Independence said that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are human rights endowed to each of us by our Creator. They didn't use the word freedom to describe our rights... they used liberty, and there are different connotations to the word liberty. Thank you for sharing this conversation. I hope and pray that God guides us all in understanding the value of good over evil.
Fantastic conversation! So much to agree upon, even coming from different angles. The world needs to hear more of this. My 22 year old son needs to hear more of this! (So it's not "just Mom" or another suspicious attempt to convert to a tribe)
@@christianhayter - evidence they said any of this at any time? Direct quotes/clips, please. Never mind - there aren't any... Your time is better spent honestly engaging with their words than creating straw man statements that sound like juvenile heresay. Thoughtful, substantiated criticisms are welcome anytime. 😊
@@dawnmuir5052 That's what Christianity and other religions are. racism, homophobia, miysogyny. When they hark for the religion, they hark for these things
I'm Jewish and not Christian. But i am an Orthodox practitioner of my religion. I think the problem is trying to make the case for traditional sexual ethics without religion. Ultimately, one of the best arguments for living as a religious person is not cosmology but rather causality
I'm catholic and I'm quite happy to say that at least in my country you get more help concerning chastity. Communities with prayer groups, secular religious orders etc do often have testimonies from married couples or just seminars with similar topics. And my own experience is that young people tend to talk about this also among themselves, which is also understandable I think. To be fair, its not easy to speak in a sermon about something that is usually supposed to be *veiled* and intimate. We've come to s point where it is necessary, but I also get why it is so unnatural for so many priests, they need to find a way and maybe for now conversations like this can pave the way
What an exceptional discussion that featured two exceptional panelists and a great moderator! I'd really like to get Louise Perry's book and Rod's as well! For me, one of the observations / questions that this discussion raised for me is this: It's really clear to me that Louise Perry is extremely ambivalent about the naive and destructive promises made by the sexual revolution. If Perry and Dreher are right in their criticisms, the sexual revolution has (for the past 60 years) succeeded in persuading a whole lot of people to cause a whole lot of damage (that on a strictly secular view of life) can never really be healed or recovered. With this in mind, what role can Christianity's teaching on repentance and forgiveness play in helping people transition to the other side of the sexual revolution? And when I speak of forgiveness, I'm not just talking about God's refusal to punish, or healing / ameliorating ann internal sense of guilt, but in the divine promise in Jesus that what's been disintegrated by sin can actually be healed / resurrected by God. I'm a Protestant, but really enjoy a lot of Catholic social thought, as it's often very thoughtful. On this score, J. Budziszewski once said, “Apart from an assurance that sin can be forgiven - something that utterly transcends what human reason can find out on its own - no human being dares to be completely honest with himself.” ...perhaps he could've also said, "something that transcends what human reason can heal / resurrect on its own..."? Well done to everyone! I also thought that Perry's research / stories / reflections related to c-sections was both necessary, sobering, and very thought provoking. Incredible work!
I love Louise Perry! ❤ Her book - 'The Case Against the Sexual Revolution' - was brilliant. 👍 I look forward to having Louise back on the show following her inevitable conversion to Christianity ✝️ (which I assume is imminent).
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I actually couldn't make it though that last debate, because I was so incredibly frustrated by how Justin Bass represented the Christian perspective. It was too easy to tell they weren't philosophers; there wasn't an OUNCE of charitability in their engagement.
Justin Bass is a very smart guy, and as a Christian, very much agree with him. However, his tendency to keep interrupting Dr. Ehrman really rubbed me the wrong way. I also felt his appeal to modern miraculous appearance accounts, while interesting, just aren't going to resonate with someone like Bart. He's a historian and scholar and engaging him on those grounds is where you're going to get the most traction.
Outstanding and thought-provoking interview, resonating at every level. This will motivate a lot of people to follow up and take the conversation further and to share it with others.
Thank you for sharing this excellent discussion! I really appreciated hearing from both Louise Perry and Rod Dreher on these topics, and I appreciated hearing their respective ideas expanded upon by each other in view of what they have written. This was very engaging!
This is a fascinating conversation! This perspective is really refreshing. It's great to hear a secular thinker adding valuable insights to the discussion.
Brilliant conversion. Human sexuality is like fire. You want it on the stove or an oven, but you didn't want to burn the whole house down. And that's what's happening today with our societies, they're like houses being uncontrollably burnt down. I very much appreciate the balanced view of not mythologizing the past. It wasn't perfect either. If it was, it wouldn't crumble do easily. The crisis (sexual revolution) if anything, looking retrospectively, revealed the weaknesses. I never understood the whole premise of sexual revolution and certain feminist movements, that upon noticing male promiscuity (men's unfaithfulness or having multiple women has had a long tradition of being tolerated even in traditional societies), and rightfully critizing it, their solution was to allow for a female promiscuity. Absolutely mind boggling. Why not enforce the proper chastity values and faithfulness of men instead? This what even ancient Church Fathers were saying: that sexual morality can't be only demanded from women alone, but from men just as much. Also I'll add, the encyclical Humanae Vita has already in the very advent of the sexual revolution predicted all the evils to come: the downfall of marriage, loss of respect to womanhood and motherhood, and sexual objectification of women. Last but not least, the crises always reveal the weaknesses. Reveal the empty shells devoided of the essence. It is concerning, because it means our current culture lost its values even before we realized, and it's only visible because the demoralization can't be hidden anymore, and that it's even further gone.
Cradle Catholic here who has been reconverted in the last few years. What has led me back to the church IS the Catholic teaching on sexuality. The Catechism is very clear on teachings, but even more beautiful are the writing of St. John Paul II. The Theology of the Body is divinely inspired. I encourage everyone to read any of Christopher West’s books which summarize the brilliance of JPII on this issue. It’s about learning the power of our bodies and why they were designed how they are and what sex really means on a physically and spiritual level. Please do not say the church has no teachings on sexual ethics- we are the only ones speaking so profoundly on this. The world needs the Theology of the Body!
WOW, just saw an Orthodox Catholic deliver a….. ‘homily,’ I guess…… on ‘The Benefits of Suffering!’ to a woman whose worked….. full time…… after volunteering…… so, she was GOOD at her job…… and this guy delivers HER a lecture on the BENEFITS of SUFFERING….. wow…..
This is just another way to finger wag men about the consequences of women’s actions. If women are the sexual selectors of society, then wouldn’t hookup culture be their fault?
Technically, the way female sexuality needs to be constrained is with modesty/dress codes (whether those of a school or the culture at large). I don't believe in the Victorian notion that women don't desire men, but no one can deny that men will do much more ridiculous and extreme things in order to get a woman's attention (or more importantly get her in bed). Obviously, there's nothing wrong with women wanting to feel wanted or to feel beautiful, but there is a real danger when women realize just how far beauty can get them in life (even if attention can backfire by attracting the attention of some really bad men). Thus, girls and women compete to see who can get more attention either by wearing fewer clothes or acting more flirty. There are many negative societal effects to result for this (especially in the dating landscape), but a big one is the rise OF chicks. Women who realized that they can use their beauty to take advantage of the loneliness and natural desires of men to get rich.
An important aspect of Christianity is self control, controlling one’s appetites and passions. The modern world does not believe in self control, indicated not only by unfettered sexual expression but also by the obesity epidemic, drug and alcohol abuse, even exercise addiction.
Tbf... those things exist back then... it's just ppl shamed you for it in certain topics, or didn't speak on it. Christianity issue I think is self control thru fear disguised as duty or love or obligation. We are on the opposite end now with excess freedom and liberation. The hope is that society finds a decent balance. One that chooses secular and religion
If you dig a little deeper, you'll find the ritualistic elements you identify originally have religious roots, rather than the other way around. Replace lamps with candles and you have a strongly monastic feel to it all. Credit to you for going with what you know.
to the lovely Louise Perry, yes an average atheist can 'just' decide to do the 'right' thing by his own means or by reading your book. But it is ultimately arbitrary 'choice' and not a universal moral law or standard. Choosing to be chased for the sake of the good of others means awfully little to 99.9% of young men and women with the world at their feet where in their minds all you are doing is inhibiting. If there is nor absolute moral law and no moral law giver you are offending then to be sexually chased is really just for fuddy duddies...
As hard as it is for theists to wrap their mind around. Atheists can do good for the sake of doing good without the promise of an eternal reward. And Christians can do evil convinced they're acting out a universal law.
See what these people aren't really understanding is, if no one is taking your religion seriously anymore, then no one is going to have specific reasons to adopt the "ancient values" that your religion supports. Arguing that people should be attracted to religion again specifically to regain these values is backwards logic. No one is going to believe in Zeus again, because it brings back similar ancient values. Its just not how belief works. And if that's really your idea, then such a belief is going to be as shallow and empty as most modern churches are rapidly becoming.
I totally understand how you feel towards this video, but may I suggest a thought? Values are named this way for a reason, it’s valuable to understand what makes these statements important. The molestation of these “ancient values” are causing confusion in our children, but this doesn’t mean Christians push confused individuals away, we welcome in anyone that want to battle their personal problems as a community. Community is what the modern world lacks. I used to be lost but to see what god (the powers that be) has done for me since I started my path is incredible.
Good point. I've had the same reaction to many podcasts where nonbelievers discuss modern cultural issues as a result of the decline of christianity. However for some people it can be an entry point to the faith and that doesn't mean that their faith can't grow beyond the initial pragmatic reason that caused them to take an interest.
I don't really care what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence. The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism is moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous? If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
No, it's the opposite. People believe the stories, because the stories have meaning. Meaning is what attracts people to belief, not the other way around
In truth, if you look at it, culture is circular rather than progressive. No one may believe in Zeus again, but there may come a time when people believe in an equivalent of Zeus and a similar culture spurred by the belief in Zeus. The hook up culture isn't really new. It is something from the past. A culture similar to Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible - an ancient book that contains an authentic history of the world of its time.
The willingness to give in to ones basest desires and impulses always leads to failure and long term misery. This is true on both an individual level and on a societal level. The people who we see succeed in life, all other things being equal, are those who successfully restrain their impulses. All things being equal, cultures that succeed and dominate other cultures, throughout history, are those that successfully inculcate in their population the value of self-restraint.
People do so when the long term reward is there. For a certain number of people it isn't there. People might save for the future if money printer didn't go brr. People might put things off if college degrees actually were a golden ticket to a great career that paid off.
All this goes back to the industrial revolution. Factories devoured men, women and children, and turned them into economic units. Natural resources and finite fuel were depleted to produce as many goods as possible. More goods were produced than were actually required so advertising was invented to make people believe their lives were lacking without all the stuff. Advertising became ubiquitous and its techniques started to manipulate our most basic instincts. Humans became hypersexualised, overfed, addicted and unsatisfied. This led to the issues in the discussion, all mopped up by the sacrosanct abortion industry, whereby we kill our own to stay trapped in the cycle.
Interesting and important discussion! Really neat to hear from a “secular” perspective on this. I don’t consider this to be just a religious issue, I think it’s also one of common sense, if one has the integrity to examine it. Appreciated hearing from both sides. Though I did find it a bit odd that this gentleman seems to be in favour of the patriarchy making a comeback? Or maybe I just inferred that he is. I’m no fan of radical feminism, but I’m no fan of patriarchy either. Perhaps he means something different by it. I’ve also noticed that a lot of conversations about culture these days can be quite pessimistic, which I get, things have gotten pretty weird. But I do think the pendulum very well may swing back to something more sensible. We’ll probably never get back to 1950s morality (and it’s debatable if that would even be a good thing) but I do think things can settle down again and become more balanced, as there seems to be a growing realization that we’ve gone off the rails, in multiples respects. That’s my hopeful guess, anyway. But who knows! Good to be prepared for the worst, and then hope for the best. Anyway, all things considered a great discussion!
I think the point raised of the only relevant factor in secular sexuality being consent is critical and perhaps where the battle needs to be fought. To reinforce the idea of virtue of the self-sacrifice of desire in order to view lack of sexual control as weak and deviant.
@@Suzume-Shimmer, veganism is NOT a diet. There is NO SUCH thing as a "vegan diet", because veganism is purely a moral stance against the undue use and abuse of animals in any way, such as parading them in a circus or zoological park, stealing their milk or eggs, and of course, needlessly slaughtering them and feeding on their bloody carcasses. Therefore, if you equate veganism with a DIET, then you have absolutely no idea of what you speak!
I'm all for a "transcendent story," as long as it is supportable to modern people. Unfortunately, the way Christianity is practiced today just does not appeal to the majority of the public anymore. Jesus as a moral guide is extremely impressive, but the rantings of right-wing evangelical preachers, or the calm demeanor of Mr. Dreher and Ms. Perry just don't cut the mustard. The vast majority of people today have a sex life before they get married. These two ain't putting that genie back in the bottle. Of course, it's very ironic for these conservatives to claim that they are fighting "authoritarianism." That really gave me a laugh.
Just as we now have a life stage we call adolescence, which didn't exist in the same way in the past, the idea that we are to restrain ourselves with potential partners doesn't occur in history. Mating was earlier. Marriage in history wasn't something people decided after having dated for a couple of years first. Having sex with someone was tantamount to being married. To pretend that we can go back in time and enjoy that nostalgia is impossible. Rather than think about going back, build a healthy stage for people who don't realistically want to marry at 16 or 20 and support them in the churches!
🐟 27. MARRIAGE & THE FAMILY: Matrimony is the contractual union of a man with one or more women, primarily for the purpose of PROCREATION and child-rearing. The couple should be brought together by their respective parents, and if practical, some sort of nuptial ceremony performed. Once a couple has been engaged to be married, they should not break the agreement, unless one party has been proven to have lost his or her virginity with a third party. OBVIOUSLY, after the wedding, the marriage contract cannot be broken, unless one or both parties has committed adultery, or one party has chosen to no longer carry out his or her marital duties (for instance, if the husband refuses to materially-support his wife/wives, or the wife refuses to perform domestic chores for her master, both of which are legitimate grounds for divorce). A RESPONSIBLE father will objectively evaluate the unique characteristics, virtues, idiosyncrasies, and shortcomings of his child from a relatively early age, and thereafter, seek a compatible spouse from the available pool of persons in his social circles. Unless his nation faces extinction, the potential match should not be any closer to his child than a cousin. If a prospective couple do not belong to the same clan (and thereby do not share the same family name), it is probable that their genetic code is sufficiently divergent to create healthy offspring. As implied above, incestuous marriage should only be condoned if the human race is in danger of extermination, or possibly in the instance where an entire race or nation is on the verge of annihilation. If one’s parents fail in their duty to select a suitable mate, one should very carefully choose a COMPATIBLE spouse. The recommended criteria used to evaluate marital compatibility are as follows: physical characteristics (such as relative height and sexual attractiveness), personality type, intelligence, emotional temperament, diet, cultural similarities, political ideology, religious affiliation, and life goals. One of the major causes of conjugal breakdown in recent decades has been due to the couple selecting each other based solely (or at least predominantly) on sexual attraction and/or amorous attachments, with little consideration given to the other guiding principles, listed above. Romance rarely lasts more than a couple of years. Marriage is an institution based largely on PRACTICAL considerations, not on lustful feelings or on fleeting sentimentality. Without firm, practical reasons for a couple remaining conjugally-bound, they are susceptible to marital divorce. Generally speaking, women have the potent desire to raise children, and require a man with which to mate, and then protect and support her and the offspring, during the fifteen-plus years (for EACH child) of child-rearing. Most men also desire to have a family, and additionally, possess a very powerful libido, which, if not channelled in a legitimate fashion, can cause a great deal of social misbehaviour (e.g. rape, etc.). There is no such thing as a nun in the eyes of God. Therefore, unless a woman is seriously disabled, either physically or psychologically, or else a lesbian, she is lawfully OBLIGATED to marry the man preselected by her parents (or if her parents are deceased, by her extant master, whether that be her grandfather, an uncle, or an adult nephew). Ideally, women ought to be betrothed as soon as they reach adulthood, to avoid a childless existence. Quite understandably, very few men have aspirations to mate with a post-menopausal female. Marriage is mandatory for men too, apart from missionary priests, those unfortunate males who are unable to support a family for reasons of mental or physical incapacity, men who are simply passed-over by hypergamous females due to being perceived as low-value suitors, homosexuals (meaning, men who are not at all attracted to the opposite gender. Bisexuals are not exempt from marriage), and men who reside in jurisdictions where ILLEGITIMATE feministic governments enact so-called “laws” which abrogate the lawful rights of married men. In my particular case, despite being a model husband and father, my first wife, with the support of the dirty, demonic, democratic Australian government, literally kidnapped my three precious children, whilst my second wife, with the assistance of the equally-wicked, violent, corrupt, murderous Filipino government, stole my presbytery (the house of a priest). The recent exodus of men in Western countries from the dating pool (or at least from formal marriage) is more than understandable. The man should be approximately ten to twenty years OLDER than his wife/wives. Some of the reasons for this are: It is natural for women to be attracted to older men and for men to be attracted to younger women. There is a good evolutionary reason why women reach their sexual peak between the ages of about fifteen to twenty-five and why a man's sexual market value peaks in his thirties to fifties. The female matures earlier (physically and socially), so if she mates with a man of similar age, she may find her spouse to be emotionally immature. The husband is almost a substitute for the woman's father figure, so the husband’s age gives him added authority as head of the family. Also, it gives the man extra time to establish his career, a house and home for his wife and forthcoming progeny. The main duties of the HUSBAND are to teach his wife/wives and sons whatever beneficial lessons he has learnt from his own masters, protect his family from harm, and supply their necessities of life (that is, food, clothing, and shelter) as well as desired luxuries, if practicable. The English noun “husband” comes from the Old Norse word “hûsbôndi”, meaning “master of the house”. Marriage is not a democracy. Any so-called man who compromises with his subordinates, whether they be his wife/wives or his offspring, is surely doomed to failure. Feminized western men, in particular, are guilty of such uxoriousness. Such emasculated “men” are not true men, and desperately need to regain their dignity as the head of their homes. The main daily duties of the WIFE are to execute domestic chores such as to cook, clean, sew, take care of the children, and to keep the husband sexually satisfied so he doesn't look at other women. The wife should submit to the will of her husband. She should fully respect him as her master, and should address him accordingly. Whilst conversing, the wife should focus her attention completely on her husband. She should listen carefully to what he says, learn what he is saying, answer him, and obey his instructions. A man should never be alone with any female, apart from his wife, of course. POLYGAMY has been taught by all the major religions. Unfortunately, the “westernized” religious cults seem to have done away with the practice for unbeknown reasons. The reason for polygamy is simply due to the fact that every woman needs a husband. Also, a certain proportion of men are destined to die as bachelors due to female hypergamy, which is a natural trait of women (even if it may seem unfair). When a woman marries, she LITERALLY joins the family of her husband. She takes her master's family name, and the husband's parents become her parents, which is why they are called “father/mother-in-law”, that is, “father/mother according to the law” (the one and only law of God, or more accurately, the Universal Law, as propounded in Chapter 12). Cont...
Better still, finish with churches/ religion altogether. If there's no place for nostalgia in the mainstream, let's turn these churches into flats, community centres, coffee shops etc
Throughout much of Christian history all that was required for a marriage to take place, was consent of both parties, a vow taken before God, no human witnesses required, followed by consummation. In Tudor times the court's were kept busy determining who was secretly married to whom. It was not until the 1700s that England had modern marriage laws. If you adopt the earlier model, many young people are married, just not in the formal sense.
@@grannyannie2948 Exactly the point, only we've lied to them by saying there was a magical element they needed to perform in front of insert _______(church/government) to satisfy others. Who has destroyed families? Legalistic power players.
Interesting conversation...however I have to contradict very strongly regarding the cause of declining birth rates. I don't think it has anything to do with the pill! Condoms exist, you know? I'm a father of two children and my wife has never taken the pill and she never will. But we certainly won't get more children. If you're working full time and have no or too little support (although in our case the grandparents do what they can) in caring for the children, then (more) children are just not feasible. In earlier times several generations lived under one roof. There were grandparents, aunts, etc. who could support the mother. Today usually this isn't the case anymore. At least where we live. So...my diagnosis is: Too much work - especially if both parents have to work - and too little time for child care.
I love all the Golden Oldies,the pop songs I grew up with,the background to all our lives back then. The sound they make is fabulous. Only I think most people of my era have never really studied the lyrics,the words. There is a lot of dodgy ideas in there. Best not to look too closely. We,the generation I grew up in,we were being mass groomed. And those songs were all written by randy young man putting forward the same idea as Andrew Marvell in his poem to "his coy mistress" back in the 1600s. It was a charter for abusers. Think,there was Jimmy Saville playing The Beach Boys song that says "wouldn't it be nice if we were older....then we could sleep together and life would be perfect.,.and(I was there) all the literature of the time,the whole media message was that 14 year old girls were driven by raging hormones coursing through their body and if the burning fevers of desire weren't sated by some man having sex with them,they would go mad and die. Don't believe me,immerse yourself in 1960s media. Go to a newspaper library or online and read the everyday chitter-chatter of the time,the background babble,not the iconic stuff that has survived. Germaine Greer was big on pushing the girls need sex agenda. I only fell foul of thid because I'm stupid. I didn't feel all this raging hormone stuff so I assumed I must be wrong,I must be the weird one. So I said "yes" and I was in a long term relationship,I thought,and having capitulated then the person told everyone I was a whore and I found out I didn't have a long term relationship but I did have the Scarlet Letter so if I'd followed my natural instincts I'd have been safe but I allowed the all pervasive toxic background misinformation to mislead me. I know,you're not that kind of person. You're So elevated and rational.
@@janebaker966 Oh you mean the likes of Bob Dylan in the 60s, his lyrics? The most influential wordsmith/Artist of the 60s. Guess I focused on substantial music and lyrical content in the 60s, that changed the world, for the better. Maybe you should check out, "Blowin In The Wind", "Like A Rolling Stone" "Times, They Are A Changin", "Masters Of War", etc.
Men are also pressured to act in a certain way. There's nothing disrespectful about having social expectations. You literally can not have a society without norms and moral expectations. It is not unenlightened to put pressure on people to act in a way that makes society function.
I think Perry is being disingenuous about birth control here. She must recognize that it doesn't just save some women from dying; it has enabled women on a mass scale to pursue accomplishment and excellence beyond motherhood. I speculate Perry's own career and that of many of her fellows has been made possible, in part, through birth control.
My husband and I watched some of The Bold Type recently. It made a point of mocking one female character for sticking to “vanilla sex”, because that’s lame and she should be more adventurous on her hook ups etc. So media portraying girls as game for adventure, whilst reality is women saying they’d rather not be choked etc thank you very much, but do it be cause “everyone does”. Part of the sexual revolution was female agency and empowerment - and saying no, and avoiding situations where “no” might be difficult is a key part of that. We might not ge able to shove all this back in the box, but replacing current Sex Ed which seems to be “how to have sex without accidentally raping or getting raped” to something far more nuanced and centred around sexual ethics, meaning, self control, emotional/societal consequences would make sense…. And not giving smartphones to kids under 16/18 would be pretty clever too.
Rod Dresher comments implies he places no hope in the Global Church and our contribution to this conversation. It seems he only thinks of Christianity in terms of Western culture.
He only thinks of Christianity in the sense of barely concealed power hungry proto-fascism like the majority of the Christian right today. Just the opening statement was a disgusting twisting of the facts and shameless victim complex.
Love the Truth of Facts above All Things ❤️ Accept and Thank the Suffering from the Knowledge of Truth 💚 Confront and Illuminate Malevolence 💜 Tirany is the Seed of its Own Destruction !!! From the Unconscious Hell ❤️ To the Conscious Hell 💚 Until the Paradise of 💜 Thaaannnk Yooouuu ❤️ 💚 💜
Predators consent, their prey has to be persuaded, they praise or embarrass, use charisma, charm or even mesmerise with gifts, but it is all grooming not consent.
@@janebaker966 Loved it as a child of the Sixties, thought Malcolm Muggeridge and Mary Whitehouse were bores, and Christianity a bore. Now I see the truth as I look back on the totally planned sexual revolution, and the powers behind it, who are now openly on display. I have found flaws in logic in Christianity, things called counter-intuitive because they don't make sense, but they do help divide the one religion that Christ brought which I'd the religion of Abraham. I have a mission now to unify all in that religion that has been lost, as I see the only way to prevent a dictatorship through cancel culture etc., is the unified truth rather than division. I have a Ytube video series called 'Myths in so-called Christianity' which is at least a start.
Feminism and the 70s sexual revolution was, at the time, one of the most important social revolution of the past few centuries. However it has in some sense become problematic.
Both of those movements are a direct cause of a lot of existing problems in the home and society. There was nothing "important" about either one of those things aside from the fact that it was at that point that the country's downfall began.
Like many other things, it has winners and losers. It never would have happened if the tradwife thing worked for everyone, and those people weren't outcasts. What sucks is that norms served masses. How does one give the few out of normies a space without having the non-normies rule the normies? Making the non-normies more outcast does not do good.
Pornography could be described as a kind of abuse particularly when young boys and girls watch it. And it is worth considering that boys are abused and damaged by this early exposure as much as girls. It is also worth considering that as it increases an unrealistic expectation in young men it creates the same unrealistic expectation in young women. Both are caught up in the same sexual culture and to that extent both buy into it.
so, if women do not like sexual experimentation or exploration (like the other half of the same species does) then what are women "allowed to enjoy" sexually? are we just supposed to focus all of the same energies that males have into children/home/support? yet males DO want to play the field and explore experimentation? who are these males supposed to explore with? what are those women supposed to limit themselves to, and why? no, i have not read ms perrys book, but i fail to see anything that she has said here has anything to do with religion, non religion or actual women
China has an extremely low marriage rate and birth rate even though they removed the one child law. India managed to bring birth rates to 1.9 per woman.
"Sexual Freedom" is actually counter-intuitive. That's why I think it's so tricky for people to grasp, and why so many people are falling into it's trap. Because sexual irresponsibility (i.e. having multiple sex partners outside of marriage), is actually NOT freedom. It actually leads to enslavement! And eventually mental and spiritual death: which is super counter-intuitive, but it's true. As Dr. Jordan Peterson has said: Sex is not free.
There is freedom to screw up ones own life. Besides, if you were correct, everyone would feel the magic after magic, instead of "I waited so long for this?"
It's always about controlling men's sexuality. Never a discussion of female sexuality or restraint. You cannot solve a problem by addressing half of the issues. So sad. Rinse and repeat.
Well she spoke on a lot during the whole podcast and the only take was that its not just because of men? Seriously? Did you even watch the poscast, I think no.
I'm gay and also an ex-evangelical so understand both sides really well. Christianity needs to become more deeply spiritual and less ideological. Modern society is not going to see any value in what Christians say if it is merely that God spoke to a group of men thousands of years ago, who wrote down how He wants you to live. It's just another list of rules with no power unless you believe that God writes books through people. Gay people were driven into the hands of the political, radical left by a refusal of conservatives to engage compassionately and reasonably with homosexuality; often rejecting members of their own families.
This is not totally true. I think what happened is that people who weren't willing to make an effort to correct their deviance simply sought to rationalize it and found a following to the extent that it became re-entrenched as a part of a new culture( which isn't really new if you have read about Sodom and Gomorrah in the bible). I suspect that someday, kliptomenia will be rationalized as well since, well, some people are born that way.
@@mathewsamuel1386 Not in my experience Matthew. It was not a question of rationalising my sexuality; more a question of accepting myself for the sake of my sanity. Trying to not be gay to fit into a theological mold didn't work. It would be the same as trying not to be right-handed, when I am.
@David Dibben Yeah, but how about trying not to be Kliptomeniac when you are? And I don't mean to criticize you. Aberrations occur in nature, we agree, butsome things are worth trying. How we decide those things, though, must be up to us.
A LESSON FROM THE CHRISTIANIZED ROME EMPIRE After Christian Emperors assumed the leadership of Rome and began throwing enormous quantities of state money and support at Christianity, many concrete “worldly” problems were no longer treated as such, but began being blamed on “Satan,” while the finest minds of the Empire were reduced to brooding over Biblical minutia and spiritual problems, from “sniffing out heresies” to “preserving one’s virginity.”
Rome was polytheistic and very religious. To suggest that Christianity ruined critical thought in favor of interest in Biblical minutiae is not just to diminish thinkers like Aquinas who thought deeply on philosophical topics of broad general interest (like the origin of the universe), but to ignore Roman religious beliefs about the influence of their gods on their lives. Much time and energy were spent on religious devotion in ancient Rome. It seems every generation possesses an impulse toward a transcendent being. What this video does, I think, is to show that efforts to rid ourselves of God lead not to progress but to ultimate frustration.
If you are real thinker than you should try to read Tom Holland "Dominion" or at least to listen some of his lectures to see how Rome and Christianity differ. Btw he is not even a Christian, just a legit historian
@@the300XM8 I don't doubt that Rome and Christianity differ. I just believe that it's not correct to see the Middle Ages as "Dark Ages" as the Enlightenment thinkers liked to argue.
Why try to control sex through religion? The trouble with religion it treats God as a separate entity outside of the body. The religious point upward as if God lives in a place called heaven which is somewhere up above. God resides within each of us so we don’t have to rely on the church to find God. It’s true that the body is the temple of God. Jesus reminds us that the I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Have respect for God that is in others. God made us as sexual beings and to control our desires is tantamount to say that God makes mistakes. Teach men to be men and to be a good man, and teach women to be women and to be good women. Sex is not a bad thing. We all want it, and try our best to get it. Bring the experience out from shame to a healthy learning experience. The young go to school to prepare them to function in the world. Do the same with sex.
Do you understand that GYNOCENTRISM is a psychological illness, Sir? Etymologically, the word "GYNOCENTRISM" means "putting women in the centre" and is the phenomenon where society and individuals favour females over males (and in this instance, also a pathetic "white knight"). For example, if a man normally believes the woman's side of an argument (especially when a woman is making accusations against men), that man is GYNOCENTRIC. Are you afflicted with the mental disease of GYNOCENTRISM, Silly Sinful Simp?
@@dewijlr How is it irrational to allow folks to believe what they wish. Would you prefer a theocratic religious state like Iran ? Freedom of thought and speech is surely a precious thing.
@@iainrae6159 There is now a proliferation of secular religions/ ideologies. These are the true enemies of truth and reason. I cannot think of one secular ideology that is healthy or rational. Even secular liberalism is flawed. LIberalism leads towards illiberalism because of its intolerance of supposedly backward opinions. Institutions can quickly become intolerant of those who remain loyal to traditional ways of thinking and living. Even silent prayer next to an abortion clinic is now an offense. We are living in Orwell's 1984 precisely because we believe we are so liberal and rational.
@@iainrae6159 Take an objective look at the U.S. today and try arguing that secular society isn't irrational. Ppl are changing their own bodies to be the opposite gender and demand that the rest of society plays along with their delusion. If that wasn't bad enough, the liberal elites in government and the media attacks their opponents with the same zealotry you'd find in the Islamic theocracies. How is it any different here?
I was very interesting conversation! Thanks for that broadcast. Because of “Minority Rights” the majority of cultures, going to Utopia, of traditional relationships between man and woman is not is not valued anymore. Churches shoud not except all this crab, as all humans are man or a woman and their is nothings else.,
The issue is: what is true? This is the view of Catholicism: God built truth into the structure of the universe...into our creation. Scripture came latter--i.e., later than the truth. So, something is not true because it's in Scripture, rather it's in Scripture because it was always true. All truth is God's truth. So this division between religion and, say, sociology/psychology is artificial: true religion teaches true truth; a true sociology/psychology would teach the same truth.
The Virtuous Noble Lie of Freedom Equality and Fraternity and the Trap of the Ocult Agreement of Consent ❤️ 💚 💜 There's no Really going Back Only is Integration of the Past And Transcend moving Forward into the Future
Its an interesting perspective on the modern world. I am curious why the topic of the Gay and Lesbian community was avoided. Its a critical piece of this discussion. 🙄
Sorry, we are living in a post Christianity era started in the sixties . Today we live in world of the individual, me too era, everybody wants to be heard. Religion is about suppression.
I dont want a return to any Christian theology. We are secular in the UK and religion is thankfully dying out. The gender criticals are a very tiny group of transphobes. This discussion is basically conservative cope.
Well, these people need to do something that actually works. For many people, trying to replace "Suffering sucks" with "Suffer because JEEESUS" doesn't do a single thing. It does about as much for many as replacing "Life has no meaning with" The meaning of life is 42."
I might see Christian things differently if I wasn't manipulated by hellfire and brimstone sermons. I was shipped off to Lakeside Christian School at age 10, and got cptsd for that stuff.
![YoungBoy Never Broke Again - Sneaking [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ILUps2zDFU/mqdefault.jpg)
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It is interesting that the secular critique of the sexual revolution reaches the same conclusion that my late father-in-law, Richard Udry, reached after a multi-year study of maternity and sexuality. His advice "You want a healthy family and society? Live like your grandparents or great-grandparents depending on your age: No children until marriage, no children outside of marriage, stay married, raise your children together."
Source trust me bro
@@konyvnyelv.
He gave you his source: Richard Udry. Looks like he was a respected researcher with many publications. Better get reading!
Buy a house mid 20 on a single salary while the wife is a fulltime housekeeper
You are, of course, referring to the way we never were.
@@NilsMontanEsq
Let me guess …
TYT and a Sam Seder fan , am I right ?
Extraordinary conversation. Louise "using technology to solve our problems, it takes the onus off just doing the right thing. Weve abandoned any effort to control men". That was like a gut punch to hear. The stark confrontation of an aspect of human nature
That's why I believe most men will never reproduce anymore. Women will use sperm donours, men will consume porn. Men and women won't date anymore. Women will have to abort boys if they want to live safely, the remaining ones will be dealt with and managed with porn.
I have never been more happy to be interrupted by advertising. Watched the entire program and took notes. Quality programming - with brave and honest questions and answers. Worthy programming addressing today’s tough issues!
The staging and videography of this discussion is fantastic. I love the lightbulb motif, and the lighting creates a real sense of immediacy and intimacy that really allows the viewer to focus on what is being said. Wonderful work, as always!
It's kind of a psychic/seance style that clashes with Christian theme of the show!
It's good to have conversations like this one. And I'm delighted to hear that for once it doesn't seem to idealise the olden days too much.
The olden days weren't better. In fact they were so bad that they gave birth to the sexual revolution - out of frustration, injustice and a lot of suffering, this crazy thing was born. People in the past weren't more moral, they did all of the immoral stuff, but they hid them better, and they blamed the victims even more.
The way to fix it isn't to go back to what used to be, but to build something new, a new way that takes what's good and worthy from both the tradition and the modernity.
As for Christianity, perhaps if for the first time in 2000 years it starts really practicing the teachings of Jesus, instead of arguing about dogmas, perhaps this could help bring about a Christian renaissance. I'm praying for that actually 😊
Glad to hear someone taking a more objective and dispassionate look. Not a woman's issue or a man's issue, but a human issue. Honestly, though, I don't see how to alter a direction once it's gone. Information travels the path of least resistance at the speed of light. Good luck competing with that.I can live with status quo, it's the "devil I know", but anything, anything that even suggests of moving to a more authoritarian culture, for whatever reason worries me. Once, just once, I don't want to see it go toward the "right". Counter revolutions are never pretty and never deliver what they promise and if they do, the price is never worth it.
Your comment about Christianity makes ZERO sense.
@@TickleMeElmo55 To make sense, you would need to elaborate.
Most economists can explain that there are no perfect systems, only tradeoffs. If the tradeoffs before the sexual revolution were not intolerable, the sexual revolution would never have happened.
Sooo much here. In college 1969-1973, married/children, today our daughter and son with 5 grandkids...I grew up with feminism, liberation and abortion. :) Would love to be part of this discussion. Thanks for raising so many important topics related to sexual relations in the modern world.
My word, Justin is just the best moderator!
Very interesting discussion! It gives me hope that people are realizing the emptiness of the world's values. May they find hope and meaning in Jesus!
Are you suggesting we follow Jesus' example and drown millions of babies ?
Jesus gives no hope except living under Hitler like dictatorships
I wish more people in journalism and the research community had the intellectual honesty of Louise Perry. She started off wholeheartedly subscribing to progressive ideas about male/female relationships, but then was confronted by data illustrating the peril that such ideas produce. Instead of ignoring the data, she changed her thought process as a result of the data. Unfortunately, many people, due to fealty to their political tribe, will ignore data that is inconvenient to the narrative they espouse.
My wife and I have always used the Billings Method to plan our family. When I explain this to my friends they think it is quite weird and often ask whether I have a plan to be 'fixed up' as if fertlility is a condition. I feel that the psychology of natural family planning lends itself to a chaste life as well as an openess to life. The general reliance on the pill and vasectomies, has made sexual relations and planning a family a much more impersonal and industrial process. Thank you so much for this important discussion.
Not sure what the method you referred to exactly is but I can imagine it’s about counting days, which is what I’ve done for 13 years in between and post two daughters. I would say it works perfectly with regular cycle. Never taken any contraceptives (tried it once immediately after my first baby and it drove me nuts). It’s mind boggling the things people take so matter of factly that really are not and which pharmaceutical companies keep taking advantage of at the expense of our health and happiness.
@@girumzemichael704 not counting days, observing physical signs.
How many kids did you have using this method?
@@andyisdead 4 daughters 21, 19 16 14
@@andyisdead My wife and I used this method, too: two children and a deep common understanding of each other were the results
I would like to offer the idea that those who wrote our Declaration of Independence said that "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are human rights endowed to each of us by our Creator. They didn't use the word freedom to describe our rights... they used liberty, and there are different connotations to the word liberty.
Thank you for sharing this conversation. I hope and pray that God guides us all in understanding the value of good over evil.
Fantastic conversation! So much to agree upon, even coming from different angles. The world needs to hear more of this. My 22 year old son needs to hear more of this! (So it's not "just Mom" or another suspicious attempt to convert to a tribe)
Ah !!! the good old days of women working away in the kitchen, gaydom not existing and plentiful slaves from Africa!
Those were the days
@@christianhayter irrelevant.
@@dawnmuir5052 How is it irrelevant when this is exactly the type of thing these two want to bring back, either wittingly or otherwise
@@christianhayter - evidence they said any of this at any time? Direct quotes/clips, please. Never mind - there aren't any...
Your time is better spent honestly engaging with their words than creating straw man statements that sound like juvenile heresay. Thoughtful, substantiated criticisms are welcome anytime. 😊
@@dawnmuir5052 That's what Christianity and other religions are. racism, homophobia, miysogyny. When they hark for the religion, they hark for these things
Such a profound interview. I'm so encouraged to see that people on the faith side and secular side arrive to same conclusion that are timeless.
One of the most engaging, presient conversations I have ever heard brilliant to listen these Two intellectuals
If those two are anyone's idea of intellectual I want to make it known: I have a bridge to sell......
I'm Jewish and not Christian. But i am an Orthodox practitioner of my religion. I think the problem is trying to make the case for traditional sexual ethics without religion. Ultimately, one of the best arguments for living as a religious person is not cosmology but rather causality
I'm catholic and I'm quite happy to say that at least in my country you get more help concerning chastity. Communities with prayer groups, secular religious orders etc do often have testimonies from married couples or just seminars with similar topics. And my own experience is that young people tend to talk about this also among themselves, which is also understandable I think.
To be fair, its not easy to speak in a sermon about something that is usually supposed to be *veiled* and intimate. We've come to s point where it is necessary, but I also get why it is so unnatural for so many priests, they need to find a way and maybe for now conversations like this can pave the way
What an exceptional discussion that featured two exceptional panelists and a great moderator! I'd really like to get Louise Perry's book and Rod's as well! For me, one of the observations / questions that this discussion raised for me is this: It's really clear to me that Louise Perry is extremely ambivalent about the naive and destructive promises made by the sexual revolution. If Perry and Dreher are right in their criticisms, the sexual revolution has (for the past 60 years) succeeded in persuading a whole lot of people to cause a whole lot of damage (that on a strictly secular view of life) can never really be healed or recovered.
With this in mind, what role can Christianity's teaching on repentance and forgiveness play in helping people transition to the other side of the sexual revolution? And when I speak of forgiveness, I'm not just talking about God's refusal to punish, or healing / ameliorating ann internal sense of guilt, but in the divine promise in Jesus that what's been disintegrated by sin can actually be healed / resurrected by God.
I'm a Protestant, but really enjoy a lot of Catholic social thought, as it's often very thoughtful. On this score, J. Budziszewski once said, “Apart from an assurance that sin can be forgiven - something that utterly transcends what human reason can find out on its own - no human being dares to be completely honest with himself.” ...perhaps he could've also said, "something that transcends what human reason can heal / resurrect on its own..."?
Well done to everyone! I also thought that Perry's research / stories / reflections related to c-sections was both necessary, sobering, and very thought provoking. Incredible work!
Not the conversation we expected, but the conversation we needed!
Get Rod on with Mark Vernon next for a massive conversation about Dante!❤
I love Louise Perry! ❤
Her book - 'The Case Against the Sexual Revolution' - was brilliant. 👍
I look forward to having Louise back on the show following her inevitable conversion to Christianity ✝️ (which I assume is imminent).
Epic conversation! Thank you all!
Amazing conversation! Thankyou!!!! Truly God help us!
Can’t wait to watch this! It will objectively be better than Bart and the other guy’s last discussion
The other guy was an embarrassment!
Any conversation is better than that one. A half hour appeal to ad populum in front of a prime scholar was a disgrace that’s not hard to beat
Just a shouty match I found. Very hard to follow tbh. Glad it’s something we can zip through.
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. I actually couldn't make it though that last debate, because I was so incredibly frustrated by how Justin Bass represented the Christian perspective. It was too easy to tell they weren't philosophers; there wasn't an OUNCE of charitability in their engagement.
Justin Bass is a very smart guy, and as a Christian, very much agree with him. However, his tendency to keep interrupting Dr. Ehrman really rubbed me the wrong way. I also felt his appeal to modern miraculous appearance accounts, while interesting, just aren't going to resonate with someone like Bart. He's a historian and scholar and engaging him on those grounds is where you're going to get the most traction.
Outstanding and thought-provoking interview, resonating at every level. This will motivate a lot of people to follow up and take the conversation further and to share it with others.
Thank you for sharing this excellent discussion! I really appreciated hearing from both Louise Perry and Rod Dreher on these topics, and I appreciated hearing their respective ideas expanded upon by each other in view of what they have written. This was very engaging!
Fascinating conversation, intelligently and respectfully done. Thank you!
I love everything about this conversation. It reminds me of a video by Bishop Barron I had watched: "The Hookup Culture" (link below)
Very interesting thanks for this. Im a Christian and really enjoying this chat im half way through Jesus is Lord
This is a fascinating conversation! This perspective is really refreshing. It's great to hear a secular thinker adding valuable insights to the discussion.
Brilliant conversion. Human sexuality is like fire. You want it on the stove or an oven, but you didn't want to burn the whole house down. And that's what's happening today with our societies, they're like houses being uncontrollably burnt down.
I very much appreciate the balanced view of not mythologizing the past. It wasn't perfect either. If it was, it wouldn't crumble do easily. The crisis (sexual revolution) if anything, looking retrospectively, revealed the weaknesses.
I never understood the whole premise of sexual revolution and certain feminist movements, that upon noticing male promiscuity (men's unfaithfulness or having multiple women has had a long tradition of being tolerated even in traditional societies), and rightfully critizing it, their solution was to allow for a female promiscuity. Absolutely mind boggling.
Why not enforce the proper chastity values and faithfulness of men instead? This what even ancient Church Fathers were saying: that sexual morality can't be only demanded from women alone, but from men just as much.
Also I'll add, the encyclical Humanae Vita has already in the very advent of the sexual revolution predicted all the evils to come: the downfall of marriage, loss of respect to womanhood and motherhood, and sexual objectification of women.
Last but not least, the crises always reveal the weaknesses. Reveal the empty shells devoided of the essence. It is concerning, because it means our current culture lost its values even before we realized, and it's only visible because the demoralization can't be hidden anymore, and that it's even further gone.
Refreshing voices!
Cradle Catholic here who has been reconverted in the last few years. What has led me back to the church IS the Catholic teaching on sexuality. The Catechism is very clear on teachings, but even more beautiful are the writing of St. John Paul II. The Theology of the Body is divinely inspired. I encourage everyone to read any of Christopher West’s books which summarize the brilliance of JPII on this issue. It’s about learning the power of our bodies and why they were designed how they are and what sex really means on a physically and spiritual level. Please do not say the church has no teachings on sexual ethics- we are the only ones speaking so profoundly on this. The world needs the Theology of the Body!
That might work if everyone actually had spiritual experiences. Masses can't and no amount of prayer or meditation makes it happen.
WOW, just saw an Orthodox Catholic deliver a….. ‘homily,’ I guess…… on ‘The Benefits of Suffering!’ to a woman whose worked….. full time…… after volunteering…… so, she was GOOD at her job…… and this guy delivers HER a lecture on the BENEFITS of SUFFERING….. wow…..
The Virtuous Noble Lie of Freedom Equality and Fraternity
We Really Need Sovereignty Justice and Responsibility
It's not just male sexuality that needs to be constrained. What about the rampant hookups girls and women are also choosing to engage in?
If everyone would be like you, mankind would go extinct.
This is just another way to finger wag men about the consequences of women’s actions.
If women are the sexual selectors of society, then wouldn’t hookup culture be their fault?
Technically, the way female sexuality needs to be constrained is with modesty/dress codes (whether those of a school or the culture at large). I don't believe in the Victorian notion that women don't desire men, but no one can deny that men will do much more ridiculous and extreme things in order to get a woman's attention (or more importantly get her in bed). Obviously, there's nothing wrong with women wanting to feel wanted or to feel beautiful, but there is a real danger when women realize just how far beauty can get them in life (even if attention can backfire by attracting the attention of some really bad men). Thus, girls and women compete to see who can get more attention either by wearing fewer clothes or acting more flirty. There are many negative societal effects to result for this (especially in the dating landscape), but a big one is the rise OF chicks. Women who realized that they can use their beauty to take advantage of the loneliness and natural desires of men to get rich.
Two insightful and wise commentators. Great viewing.
Sings: “It ain’t necessarily so...” 🎤
Are you referring to Rod "Oyster soy facer" Dreher as insightful and wise
An important aspect of Christianity is self control, controlling one’s appetites and passions. The modern world does not believe in self control, indicated not only by unfettered sexual expression but also by the obesity epidemic, drug and alcohol abuse, even exercise addiction.
Philosophy came first, sorry
Tbf... those things exist back then... it's just ppl shamed you for it in certain topics, or didn't speak on it. Christianity issue I think is self control thru fear disguised as duty or love or obligation.
We are on the opposite end now with excess freedom and liberation.
The hope is that society finds a decent balance. One that chooses secular and religion
thank you
Identify and Differentiate the Vices and the Virtues of Religion
To
Integrate and Transcend the Virtues and the Vices into a New Integral Religion
Love the psychic/seance setting for the video!
Very contradictory to the ultra-religious single-mindedness theme of your show!
If you dig a little deeper, you'll find the ritualistic elements you identify originally have religious roots, rather than the other way around. Replace lamps with candles and you have a strongly monastic feel to it all. Credit to you for going with what you know.
Wonderful conversation.
to the lovely Louise Perry, yes an average atheist can 'just' decide to do the 'right' thing by his own means or by reading your book. But it is ultimately arbitrary 'choice' and not a universal moral law or standard. Choosing to be chased for the sake of the good of others means awfully little to 99.9% of young men and women with the world at their feet where in their minds all you are doing is inhibiting.
If there is nor absolute moral law and no moral law giver you are offending then to be sexually chased is really just for fuddy duddies...
As hard as it is for theists to wrap their mind around. Atheists can do good for the sake of doing good without the promise of an eternal reward.
And Christians can do evil convinced they're acting out a universal law.
This is what you refer to as great conversation.
See what these people aren't really understanding is, if no one is taking your religion seriously anymore, then no one is going to have specific reasons to adopt the "ancient values" that your religion supports. Arguing that people should be attracted to religion again specifically to regain these values is backwards logic. No one is going to believe in Zeus again, because it brings back similar ancient values. Its just not how belief works. And if that's really your idea, then such a belief is going to be as shallow and empty as most modern churches are rapidly becoming.
I totally understand how you feel towards this video, but may I suggest a thought?
Values are named this way for a reason, it’s valuable to understand what makes these statements important. The molestation of these “ancient values” are causing confusion in our children, but this doesn’t mean Christians push confused individuals away, we welcome in anyone that want to battle their personal problems as a community. Community is what the modern world lacks.
I used to be lost but to see what god (the powers that be) has done for me since I started my path is incredible.
Good point. I've had the same reaction to many podcasts where nonbelievers discuss modern cultural issues as a result of the decline of christianity. However for some people it can be an entry point to the faith and that doesn't mean that their faith can't grow beyond the initial pragmatic reason that caused them to take an interest.
I don't really care what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence.
The ONLY thing that really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics.
Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial?
Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses?
Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism is moral?
Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous?
If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
No, it's the opposite. People believe the stories, because the stories have meaning.
Meaning is what attracts people to belief, not the other way around
In truth, if you look at it, culture is circular rather than progressive. No one may believe in Zeus again, but there may come a time when people believe in an equivalent of Zeus and a similar culture spurred by the belief in Zeus. The hook up culture isn't really new. It is something from the past. A culture similar to Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible - an ancient book that contains an authentic history of the world of its time.
Its not just the pill, its also increasing urbanisation less room to have a lot of children.
Peter Zeihan argues this point.
I find it fun to see how many countries never had Jesus in them, yet urbanization lowered their birth rates too.
Very interesting lighting, two wonderful, intelligent, respectful guests for an excellent discussion.
Loiuse has amazing reasoning, as well as Rod! Greetings from Kyiv, Ukraine :))
great episode
The willingness to give in to ones basest desires and impulses always leads to failure and long term misery. This is true on both an individual level and on a societal level. The people who we see succeed in life, all other things being equal, are those who successfully restrain their impulses. All things being equal, cultures that succeed and dominate other cultures, throughout history, are those that successfully inculcate in their population the value of self-restraint.
People do so when the long term reward is there. For a certain number of people it isn't there. People might save for the future if money printer didn't go brr. People might put things off if college degrees actually were a golden ticket to a great career that paid off.
All this goes back to the industrial revolution. Factories devoured men, women and children, and turned them into economic units. Natural resources and finite fuel were depleted to produce as many goods as possible. More goods were produced than were actually required so advertising was invented to make people believe their lives were lacking without all the stuff. Advertising became ubiquitous and its techniques started to manipulate our most basic instincts. Humans became hypersexualised, overfed, addicted and unsatisfied. This led to the issues in the discussion, all mopped up by the sacrosanct abortion industry, whereby we kill our own to stay trapped in the cycle.
10:30 "The slaying of a beautiful theory by an ugly fact."
Interesting and important discussion! Really neat to hear from a “secular” perspective on this. I don’t consider this to be just a religious issue, I think it’s also one of common sense, if one has the integrity to examine it. Appreciated hearing from both sides. Though I did find it a bit odd that this gentleman seems to be in favour of the patriarchy making a comeback? Or maybe I just inferred that he is. I’m no fan of radical feminism, but I’m no fan of patriarchy either. Perhaps he means something different by it. I’ve also noticed that a lot of conversations about culture these days can be quite pessimistic, which I get, things have gotten pretty weird. But I do think the pendulum very well may swing back to something more sensible. We’ll probably never get back to 1950s morality (and it’s debatable if that would even be a good thing) but I do think things can settle down again and become more balanced, as there seems to be a growing realization that we’ve gone off the rails, in multiples respects. That’s my hopeful guess, anyway. But who knows! Good to be prepared for the worst, and then hope for the best. Anyway, all things considered a great discussion!
A very good program!
I think the point raised of the only relevant factor in secular sexuality being consent is critical and perhaps where the battle needs to be fought. To reinforce the idea of virtue of the self-sacrifice of desire in order to view lack of sexual control as weak and deviant.
Unfortunately the lack of control has a prized place in literature, old and new.
@@Suzume-Shimmer
SHABBAT SHALOM! 🕎
HAPPY SABBATH! ✡️
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
@@ReverendDr.Thomas
Oh yes.
My slave owners force me to eat vegans 3 xs a day.
@@Suzume-Shimmer, veganism is NOT a diet.
There is NO SUCH thing as a "vegan diet", because veganism is purely a moral stance against the undue use and abuse of animals in any way, such as parading them in a circus or zoological park, stealing their milk or eggs, and of course, needlessly slaughtering them and feeding on their bloody carcasses.
Therefore, if you equate veganism with a DIET, then you have absolutely no idea of what you speak!
Critiquing other people's habits, such as their sex lives, is a characteristic of the low self-esteem and the low achievers in society
Great stuff
Great stuff!
17:00 everything has tradeoffs. Oh Louise, have you been reading Thomas Sowell? Bravo, whether you have or not. 👏
She talked circles around the question about how we change the narrative on abstinence, and I really wanted to hear an answer to that.
I'm all for a "transcendent story," as long as it is supportable to modern people. Unfortunately, the way Christianity is practiced today just does not appeal to the majority of the public anymore. Jesus as a moral guide is extremely impressive, but the rantings of right-wing evangelical preachers, or the calm demeanor of Mr. Dreher and Ms. Perry just don't cut the mustard. The vast majority of people today have a sex life before they get married. These two ain't putting that genie back in the bottle. Of course, it's very ironic for these conservatives to claim that they are fighting "authoritarianism." That really gave me a laugh.
I joke that modern conservativism only conserves the interests of Wall Streeters.
Just as we now have a life stage we call adolescence, which didn't exist in the same way in the past, the idea that we are to restrain ourselves with potential partners doesn't occur in history. Mating was earlier. Marriage in history wasn't something people decided after having dated for a couple of years first. Having sex with someone was tantamount to being married. To pretend that we can go back in time and enjoy that nostalgia is impossible. Rather than think about going back, build a healthy stage for people who don't realistically want to marry at 16 or 20 and support them in the churches!
🐟 27. MARRIAGE & THE FAMILY:
Matrimony is the contractual union of a man with one or more women, primarily for the purpose of PROCREATION and child-rearing.
The couple should be brought together by their respective parents, and if practical, some sort of nuptial ceremony performed. Once a couple has been engaged to be married, they should not break the agreement, unless one party has been proven to have lost his or her virginity with a third party. OBVIOUSLY, after the wedding, the marriage contract cannot be broken, unless one or both parties has committed adultery, or one party has chosen to no longer carry out his or her marital duties (for instance, if the husband refuses to materially-support his wife/wives, or the wife refuses to perform domestic chores for her master, both of which are legitimate grounds for divorce).
A RESPONSIBLE father will objectively evaluate the unique characteristics, virtues, idiosyncrasies, and shortcomings of his child from a relatively early age, and thereafter, seek a compatible spouse from the available pool of persons in his social circles. Unless his nation faces extinction, the potential match should not be any closer to his child than a cousin. If a prospective couple do not belong to the same clan (and thereby do not share the same family name), it is probable that their genetic code is sufficiently divergent to create healthy offspring. As implied above, incestuous marriage should only be condoned if the human race is in danger of extermination, or possibly in the instance where an entire race or nation is on the verge of annihilation.
If one’s parents fail in their duty to select a suitable mate, one should very carefully choose a COMPATIBLE spouse. The recommended criteria used to evaluate marital compatibility are as follows: physical characteristics (such as relative height and sexual attractiveness), personality type, intelligence, emotional temperament, diet, cultural similarities, political ideology, religious affiliation, and life goals.
One of the major causes of conjugal breakdown in recent decades has been due to the couple selecting each other based solely (or at least predominantly) on sexual attraction and/or amorous attachments, with little consideration given to the other guiding principles, listed above.
Romance rarely lasts more than a couple of years. Marriage is an institution based largely on PRACTICAL considerations, not on lustful feelings or on fleeting sentimentality. Without firm, practical reasons for a couple remaining conjugally-bound, they are susceptible to marital divorce.
Generally speaking, women have the potent desire to raise children, and require a man with which to mate, and then protect and support her and the offspring, during the fifteen-plus years (for EACH child) of child-rearing. Most men also desire to have a family, and additionally, possess a very powerful libido, which, if not channelled in a legitimate fashion, can cause a great deal of social misbehaviour (e.g. rape, etc.).
There is no such thing as a nun in the eyes of God. Therefore, unless a woman is seriously disabled, either physically or psychologically, or else a lesbian, she is lawfully OBLIGATED to marry the man preselected by her parents (or if her parents are deceased, by her extant master, whether that be her grandfather, an uncle, or an adult nephew). Ideally, women ought to be betrothed as soon as they reach adulthood, to avoid a childless existence. Quite understandably, very few men have aspirations to mate with a post-menopausal female.
Marriage is mandatory for men too, apart from missionary priests, those unfortunate males who are unable to support a family for reasons of mental or physical incapacity, men who are simply passed-over by hypergamous females due to being perceived as low-value suitors, homosexuals (meaning, men who are not at all attracted to the opposite gender. Bisexuals are not exempt from marriage), and men who reside in jurisdictions where ILLEGITIMATE feministic governments enact so-called “laws” which abrogate the lawful rights of married men.
In my particular case, despite being a model husband and father, my first wife, with the support of the dirty, demonic, democratic Australian government, literally kidnapped my three precious children, whilst my second wife, with the assistance of the equally-wicked, violent, corrupt, murderous Filipino government, stole my presbytery (the house of a priest).
The recent exodus of men in Western countries from the dating pool (or at least from formal marriage) is more than understandable.
The man should be approximately ten to twenty years OLDER than his wife/wives. Some of the reasons for this are:
It is natural for women to be attracted to older men and for men to be attracted to younger women. There is a good evolutionary reason why women reach their sexual peak between the ages of about fifteen to twenty-five and why a man's sexual market value peaks in his thirties to fifties. The female matures earlier (physically and socially), so if she mates with a man of similar age, she may find her spouse to be emotionally immature. The husband is almost a substitute for the woman's father figure, so the husband’s age gives him added authority as head of the family. Also, it gives the man extra time to establish his career, a house and home for his wife and forthcoming progeny.
The main duties of the HUSBAND are to teach his wife/wives and sons whatever beneficial lessons he has learnt from his own masters, protect his family from harm, and supply their necessities of life (that is, food, clothing, and shelter) as well as desired luxuries, if practicable. The English noun “husband” comes from the Old Norse word “hûsbôndi”, meaning “master of the house”.
Marriage is not a democracy. Any so-called man who compromises with his subordinates, whether they be his wife/wives or his offspring, is surely doomed to failure. Feminized western men, in particular, are guilty of such uxoriousness. Such emasculated “men” are not true men, and desperately need to regain their dignity as the head of their homes.
The main daily duties of the WIFE are to execute domestic chores such as to cook, clean, sew, take care of the children, and to keep the husband sexually satisfied so he doesn't look at other women.
The wife should submit to the will of her husband. She should fully respect him as her master, and should address him accordingly.
Whilst conversing, the wife should focus her attention completely on her husband. She should listen carefully to what he says, learn what he is saying, answer him, and obey his instructions. A man should never be alone with any female, apart from his wife, of course.
POLYGAMY has been taught by all the major religions. Unfortunately, the “westernized” religious cults seem to have done away with the practice for unbeknown reasons. The reason for polygamy is simply due to the fact that every woman needs a husband. Also, a certain proportion of men are destined to die as bachelors due to female hypergamy, which is a natural trait of women (even if it may seem unfair).
When a woman marries, she LITERALLY joins the family of her husband.
She takes her master's family name, and the husband's parents become her parents, which is why they are called “father/mother-in-law”, that is, “father/mother according to the law” (the one and only law of God, or more accurately, the Universal Law, as propounded in Chapter 12).
Cont...
@@ReverendDr.Thomas fruitcake :)
Better still, finish with churches/ religion altogether. If there's no place for nostalgia in the mainstream, let's turn these churches into flats, community centres, coffee shops etc
Throughout much of Christian history all that was required for a marriage to take place, was consent of both parties, a vow taken before God, no human witnesses required, followed by consummation. In Tudor times the court's were kept busy determining who was secretly married to whom. It was not until the 1700s that England had modern marriage laws. If you adopt the earlier model, many young people are married, just not in the formal sense.
@@grannyannie2948 Exactly the point, only we've lied to them by saying there was a magical element they needed to perform in front of insert _______(church/government) to satisfy others. Who has destroyed families? Legalistic power players.
Great Conversation!!!!!
Interesting conversation...however I have to contradict very strongly regarding the cause of declining birth rates. I don't think it has anything to do with the pill! Condoms exist, you know?
I'm a father of two children and my wife has never taken the pill and she never will. But we certainly won't get more children.
If you're working full time and have no or too little support (although in our case the grandparents do what they can) in caring for the children, then (more) children are just not feasible.
In earlier times several generations lived under one roof. There were grandparents, aunts, etc. who could support the mother. Today usually this isn't the case anymore. At least where we live.
So...my diagnosis is: Too much work - especially if both parents have to work - and too little time for child care.
What is that wierd light that keeps going across the top of the screen? It is very distracting!
This was amazing, the men spoke righteous and the woman was virtuous. Wish more women would learn from her, we need to follow the Bible.
The bible says to love your enemy and to hate your family. It's nonsense.
Any society which pressures women to act in a certain way is an unenlightened society. Female bodied sapiens deserve the same respect as men PERIOD.
I love all the Golden Oldies,the pop songs I grew up with,the background to all our lives back then. The sound they make is fabulous. Only I think most people of my era have never really studied the lyrics,the words. There is a lot of dodgy ideas in there. Best not to look too closely. We,the generation I grew up in,we were being mass groomed.
And those songs were all written by randy young man putting forward the same idea as Andrew Marvell in his poem to "his coy mistress" back in the 1600s. It was a charter for abusers. Think,there was Jimmy Saville playing The Beach Boys song that says "wouldn't it be nice if we were older....then we could sleep together and life would be perfect.,.and(I was there) all the literature of the time,the whole media message was that 14 year old girls were driven by raging hormones coursing through their body and if the burning fevers of desire weren't sated by some man having sex with them,they would go mad and die. Don't believe me,immerse yourself in 1960s media. Go to a newspaper library or online and read the everyday chitter-chatter of the time,the background babble,not the iconic stuff that has survived. Germaine Greer was big on pushing the girls need sex agenda. I only fell foul of thid because I'm stupid. I didn't feel all this raging hormone stuff so I assumed I must be wrong,I must be the weird one. So I said "yes" and I was in a long term relationship,I thought,and having capitulated then the person told everyone I was a whore and I found out I didn't have a long term relationship but I did have the Scarlet Letter so if I'd followed my natural instincts I'd have been safe but I allowed the all pervasive toxic background misinformation to mislead me. I know,you're not that kind of person. You're So elevated and rational.
Well said. These 2 guests totally disagree w your premise.
@@janebaker966
Oh you mean the likes of Bob Dylan in the 60s, his lyrics? The most influential wordsmith/Artist of the 60s. Guess I focused on substantial music and lyrical content in the 60s, that changed the world, for the better. Maybe you should check out, "Blowin In The Wind", "Like A Rolling Stone" "Times, They Are A Changin", "Masters Of War", etc.
But in today's society men are not respected. If anything we need to start giving men more respect instead of always pandering to women.
Men are also pressured to act in a certain way. There's nothing disrespectful about having social expectations.
You literally can not have a society without norms and moral expectations. It is not unenlightened to put pressure on people to act in a way that makes society function.
Thy will be done Vs Do what thout will
I think Perry is being disingenuous about birth control here. She must recognize that it doesn't just save some women from dying; it has enabled women on a mass scale to pursue accomplishment and excellence beyond motherhood. I speculate Perry's own career and that of many of her fellows has been made possible, in part, through birth control.
My husband and I watched some of The Bold Type recently. It made a point of mocking one female character for sticking to “vanilla sex”, because that’s lame and she should be more adventurous on her hook ups etc. So media portraying girls as game for adventure, whilst reality is women saying they’d rather not be choked etc thank you very much, but do it be cause “everyone does”. Part of the sexual revolution was female agency and empowerment - and saying no, and avoiding situations where “no” might be difficult is a key part of that. We might not ge able to shove all this back in the box, but replacing current Sex Ed which seems to be “how to have sex without accidentally raping or getting raped” to something far more nuanced and centred around sexual ethics, meaning, self control, emotional/societal consequences would make sense…. And not giving smartphones to kids under 16/18 would be pretty clever too.
Sounds like you're jealous coz you missed out
Nope. 😂
The reply of a jealous person not wanting to admit they missed out
Rod Dresher comments implies he places no hope in the Global Church and our contribution to this conversation. It seems he only thinks of Christianity in terms of Western culture.
He only thinks of Christianity in the sense of barely concealed power hungry proto-fascism like the majority of the Christian right today. Just the opening statement was a disgusting twisting of the facts and shameless victim complex.
An interesting discussion 👍
Love the Truth of Facts above All Things ❤️
Accept and Thank the Suffering from the Knowledge of Truth 💚
Confront and Illuminate Malevolence 💜
Tirany is the Seed of its Own Destruction !!!
From the Unconscious Hell ❤️
To the Conscious Hell 💚
Until the Paradise of 💜
Thaaannnk Yooouuu ❤️ 💚 💜
21:12 I do appreciate JB and Unbelievable, but I wish he had let Rod finish his train of thought here.
Predators consent, their prey has to be persuaded, they praise or embarrass, use charisma, charm or even mesmerise with gifts, but it is all grooming not consent.
1960s pop songs,golden oldies. Great sounds. Often dodgy lyrics. Mass Grooming.
@@janebaker966 Loved it as a child of the Sixties, thought Malcolm Muggeridge and Mary Whitehouse were bores, and Christianity a bore.
Now I see the truth as I look back on the totally planned sexual revolution, and the powers behind it, who are now openly on display.
I have found flaws in logic in Christianity, things called counter-intuitive because they don't make sense, but they do help divide the one religion that Christ brought which I'd the religion of Abraham. I have a mission now to unify all in that religion that has been lost, as I see the only way to prevent a dictatorship through cancel culture etc., is the unified truth rather than division. I have a Ytube video series called 'Myths in so-called Christianity' which is at least a start.
JC was an invention of the Romans for socio-political-militaristic purposes
Feminism and the 70s sexual revolution was, at the time, one of the most important social revolution of the past few centuries. However it has in some sense become problematic.
Which sense is that?
Both of those movements are a direct cause of a lot of existing problems in the home and society. There was nothing "important" about either one of those things aside from the fact that it was at that point that the country's downfall began.
I think change is coming. What is the ultimate rebellion against the older generation? Political and social conservatism and religiosity.
Not really, it just caused low birth rates and demographic replacement.
Like many other things, it has winners and losers. It never would have happened if the tradwife thing worked for everyone, and those people weren't outcasts.
What sucks is that norms served masses. How does one give the few out of normies a space without having the non-normies rule the normies? Making the non-normies more outcast does not do good.
Pornography could be described as a kind of abuse particularly when young boys and girls watch it. And it is worth considering that boys are abused and damaged by this early exposure as much as girls. It is also worth considering that as it increases an unrealistic expectation in young men it creates the same unrealistic expectation in young women. Both are caught up in the same sexual culture and to that extent both buy into it.
so, if women do not like sexual experimentation or exploration (like the other half of the same species does) then what are women "allowed to enjoy" sexually? are we just supposed to focus all of the same energies that males have into children/home/support? yet males DO want to play the field and explore experimentation? who are these males supposed to explore with? what are those women supposed to limit themselves to, and why? no, i have not read ms perrys book, but i fail to see anything that she has said here has anything to do with religion, non religion or actual women
15:50, 35:30, 1:00:00, 1:03:00, 1:07:00
This was just a REALLY REALLY good fucking discussion .. still find it hard to believe I can watch this content anywhere anytime good job world 👍
Perfect
This may the reason why the West are collapsing now, while the East, especially China and India, are rising up.
China has an extremely low marriage rate and birth rate even though they removed the one child law. India managed to bring birth rates to 1.9 per woman.
Do these cruising light bulbs really have to be shown?
"Sexual Freedom" is actually counter-intuitive. That's why I think it's so tricky for people to grasp, and why so many people are falling into it's trap. Because sexual irresponsibility (i.e. having multiple sex partners outside of marriage), is actually NOT freedom. It actually leads to enslavement! And eventually mental and spiritual death: which is super counter-intuitive, but it's true. As Dr. Jordan Peterson has said: Sex is not free.
There is freedom to screw up ones own life. Besides, if you were correct, everyone would feel the magic after magic, instead of "I waited so long for this?"
It's always about controlling men's sexuality. Never a discussion of female sexuality or restraint. You cannot solve a problem by addressing half of the issues. So sad. Rinse and repeat.
Women are naturally self restrained. Males are naturally bonkers.
Well she spoke on a lot during the whole podcast and the only take was that its not just because of men? Seriously? Did you even watch the poscast, I think no.
I'm gay and also an ex-evangelical so understand both sides really well. Christianity needs to become more deeply spiritual and less ideological. Modern society is not going to see any value in what Christians say if it is merely that God spoke to a group of men thousands of years ago, who wrote down how He wants you to live. It's just another list of rules with no power unless you believe that God writes books through people. Gay people were driven into the hands of the political, radical left by a refusal of conservatives to engage compassionately and reasonably with homosexuality; often rejecting members of their own families.
And you the west was t to FORCE THAT TO AFRICANS??. You spend millions trying to recruit people here in Uganda. LEAVE US ALONE
@@OMJOVI I have no plans to visit Uganda. God bless xx❤️
This is not totally true. I think what happened is that people who weren't willing to make an effort to correct their deviance simply sought to rationalize it and found a following to the extent that it became re-entrenched as a part of a new culture( which isn't really new if you have read about Sodom and Gomorrah in the bible). I suspect that someday, kliptomenia will be rationalized as well since, well, some people are born that way.
@@mathewsamuel1386 Not in my experience Matthew. It was not a question of rationalising my sexuality; more a question of accepting myself for the sake of my sanity. Trying to not be gay to fit into a theological mold didn't work. It would be the same as trying not to be right-handed, when I am.
@David Dibben Yeah, but how about trying not to be Kliptomeniac when you are? And I don't mean to criticize you. Aberrations occur in nature, we agree, butsome things are worth trying. How we decide those things, though, must be up to us.
Denying the law given by God humans will certainly suffer as animals
Okay, either I'm too old or not old enough... What the heck is fuddy duddy?!
Old fashioned. Set in the old ways. That sort of thing.
@@Read2Friends thank you
A LESSON FROM THE CHRISTIANIZED ROME EMPIRE
After Christian Emperors assumed the leadership of Rome and began throwing enormous quantities of state money and support at Christianity, many concrete “worldly” problems were no longer treated as such, but began being blamed on “Satan,” while the finest minds of the Empire were reduced to brooding over Biblical minutia and spiritual problems, from “sniffing out heresies” to “preserving one’s virginity.”
Rome was polytheistic and very religious. To suggest that Christianity ruined critical thought in favor of interest in Biblical minutiae is not just to diminish thinkers like Aquinas who thought deeply on philosophical topics of broad general interest (like the origin of the universe), but to ignore Roman religious beliefs about the influence of their gods on their lives. Much time and energy were spent on religious devotion in ancient Rome. It seems every generation possesses an impulse toward a transcendent being. What this video does, I think, is to show that efforts to rid ourselves of God lead not to progress but to ultimate frustration.
If you are real thinker than you should try to read Tom Holland "Dominion" or at least to listen some of his lectures to see how Rome and Christianity differ. Btw he is not even a Christian, just a legit historian
@@the300XM8 I don't doubt that Rome and Christianity differ. I just believe that it's not correct to see the Middle Ages as "Dark Ages" as the Enlightenment thinkers liked to argue.
@@TonyTiger79 well that's one of the things that he wrotte about in his book. I wasn't making a counter-agrument
@@the300XM8 I understand. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Have a good weekend.
Why try to control sex through religion? The trouble with religion it treats God as a separate entity outside of the body. The religious point upward as if God lives in a place called heaven which is somewhere up above. God resides within each of us so we don’t have to rely on the church to find God. It’s true that the body is the temple of God. Jesus reminds us that the I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Have respect for God that is in others. God made us as sexual beings and to control our desires is tantamount to say that God makes mistakes. Teach men to be men and to be a good man, and teach women to be women and to be good women. Sex is not a bad thing. We all want it, and try our best to get it. Bring the experience out from shame to a healthy learning experience. The young go to school to prepare them to function in the world. Do the same with sex.
The patriarchy was just men protecting women from themselves.
A bit like the way parents protect children from themselves.
9:20
A secular society allows religious beliefs to be expressed freely. Not so sure monotheism has done women many favours over the centuries.
Do you understand that GYNOCENTRISM is a psychological illness, Sir?
Etymologically, the word "GYNOCENTRISM" means "putting women in the centre" and is the phenomenon where society and individuals favour females over males (and in this instance, also a pathetic "white knight").
For example, if a man normally believes the woman's side of an argument (especially when a woman is making accusations against men), that man is GYNOCENTRIC.
Are you afflicted with the mental disease of GYNOCENTRISM, Silly Sinful Simp?
But secular society is irrational.
@@dewijlr How is it irrational to allow folks to believe what they wish.
Would you prefer a theocratic religious state like Iran ? Freedom of thought and speech is surely a precious thing.
@@iainrae6159 There is now a proliferation of secular religions/ ideologies. These are the true enemies of truth and reason. I cannot think of one secular ideology that is healthy or rational.
Even secular liberalism is flawed. LIberalism leads towards illiberalism because of its intolerance of supposedly backward opinions. Institutions can quickly become intolerant of those who remain loyal to traditional ways of thinking and living. Even silent prayer next to an abortion clinic is now an offense. We are living in Orwell's 1984 precisely because we believe we are so liberal and rational.
@@iainrae6159 Take an objective look at the U.S. today and try arguing that secular society isn't irrational. Ppl are changing their own bodies to be the opposite gender and demand that the rest of society plays along with their delusion. If that wasn't bad enough, the liberal elites in government and the media attacks their opponents with the same zealotry you'd find in the Islamic theocracies. How is it any different here?
I was very interesting conversation! Thanks for that broadcast. Because of “Minority Rights” the majority of cultures, going to Utopia, of traditional relationships between man and woman is not is not valued anymore. Churches shoud not except all this crab, as all humans are man or a woman and their is nothings else.,
The issue is: what is true?
This is the view of Catholicism: God built truth into the structure of the universe...into our creation. Scripture came latter--i.e., later than the truth.
So, something is not true because it's in Scripture, rather it's in Scripture because it was always true. All truth is God's truth.
So this division between religion and, say, sociology/psychology is artificial: true religion teaches true truth; a true sociology/psychology would teach the same truth.
01:11:00. Atheist Emma Thorne is even a professing Satanist because she like the spirituality.
Maybe if Christianity gave spiritual experiences to everyone, people wouldn't leave. How many people just don't get it?
The Virtuous Noble Lie of Freedom Equality and Fraternity and the Trap of the Ocult Agreement of Consent ❤️ 💚 💜
There's no Really going Back
Only is Integration of the Past
And Transcend moving Forward into the Future
Its an interesting perspective on the modern world. I am curious why the topic of the Gay and Lesbian community was avoided. Its a critical piece of this discussion. 🙄
Probably because if all that stuff worked for everyone, gays and lesbians would never exist.
Sorry, we are living in a post Christianity era started in the sixties . Today we live in world of the individual, me too era, everybody wants to be heard. Religion is about suppression.
I dont want a return to any Christian theology. We are secular in the UK and religion is thankfully dying out.
The gender criticals are a very tiny group of transphobes. This discussion is basically conservative cope.
And Yeeesss...We need to Reinterpreted the Meaning of Suffering
Like Shame
Suffering is the Best Mechanism to Help Illuminate our Shadow
And Grow
Well, these people need to do something that actually works. For many people, trying to replace "Suffering sucks" with "Suffer because JEEESUS" doesn't do a single thing. It does about as much for many as replacing "Life has no meaning with" The meaning of life is 42."
@@skylinefever
Jesus Won't Save You from Your Personal Hell
Only The Christ Consciousness Will Give You the Paradise of Consciousness ❤️💚💜
I might see Christian things differently if I wasn't manipulated by hellfire and brimstone sermons. I was shipped off to Lakeside Christian School at age 10, and got cptsd for that stuff.