Jordan Peterson: Career vs. motherhood: Are women being lied to? | Big Think
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Jordan Peterson: Career vs. motherhood: Are women being lied to?
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Around age 19, women are generally focused on their careers. That changes around the age of 30 when they realize that a career is not the primary purpose of their lives.
There are a handful of things that are actually fundamental to life, and if one of them is missing it will get in the way of personal fulfillment.
For the women with ambitions to be mothers, teaching them that careers are more important does them a great disservice.
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JORDAN PETERSON:
Jordan B. Peterson, raised and toughened in the frigid wastelands of Northern Alberta, has flown a hammer-head roll in a carbon-fiber stunt-plane, explored an Arizona meteorite crater with astronauts, and built a Kwagu'l ceremonial bighouse on the upper floor of his Toronto home after being invited into and named by that Canadian First Nation. He's taught mythology to lawyers, doctors and business people, consulted for the UN Secretary General, helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia, served as an adviser to senior partners of major Canadian law firms, and lectured extensively in North America and Europe. With his students and colleagues at Harvard and the University of Toronto, Dr. Peterson has published over a hundred scientific papers, transforming the modern understanding of personality, while his book Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief revolutionized the psychology of religion.
His latest book is 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos amzn.to/3aIrqDo
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TRANSCRIPT:
JORDAN PETERSON: What's the relative importance of career and motherhood in a typical woman's life? I'm 55 and I've been working with men and women my entire life. And I've watched this. And it's quite obvious. It's like at 19 it's all career. By 30 that's just not the case. It's not the case. I don't know if I've seen a single woman who I didn't think had a psychological problem who hadn't seriously flipped in their attitude towards the balance of family and career by the time they were 30. And then you see lots of women who at 40 haven't had kids and perhaps wanted to and that's not a pleasant situation.
I was talking to a woman who was about 39, a professional woman - attractive, well put together, competent, well educated, successful in her profession, unmarried, in a relationship with an older guy but unmarried and desperate to have a child. She said no one ever talked to her about the fact that she's actually want to have a family or encouraged her to think about doing that. It was as if it wasn't within the realm of possibility that one of the things that she might have the ambition to do would be to be a mother. And that's just not acceptable.
And it was like she woke up in her late thirties and thought well, the first thing she thought was this profession of mine is actually nowhere near as comprehensively fulfilling as the advertisements claimed which is something that virtually everyone discovers as they move forward in their professional career. No, I mean the reason you get paid generally for your work is because you're doing something that you wouldn't choose to do if you weren't being paid for it. And so the idea that your career is going to be the fundamental source of your fulfillment is true for a very tiny minority of people. And even with them it's complicated. So she was tearful and upset about the fact that it took her so long to discover that there were other important dimensions to life and that motherhood turns out to be well, how many things do you do in your life that are fundamental, right? You have a career and your education so that would be part of your career development. That's part of what makes you generally useful in society and perhaps a place that you find some meaning and purpose. You have your friends. You have your family like your parents and your siblings and so forth. You have your kids. You have your relationship. That's it. There's four things. Now you can expand that to some degree. You can have, maybe you're creative and make good use of your personal time. There's other factors that aren't trivial. But those four things are canonically important. You miss one of them and you're going to pay for it.
And so our society needs to rethink our relative valuation of career versus motherhood. So we don't know how to solve this problem but we could at least have an intelligent...
Read the full transcript at bigthink.com/v...
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Hello, Big Thinkers! We would love to hear your stories: did you or someone you know have to face this choice? How did you go about it?
P.S. Remember, this is just one person's opinion, so it's ok to disagree, as long as we are leading an open discussion.
They often choose to have children first then futher career wise later which is often devastating and they end up raising kids all their lives.
I think all he is trying to say is that you can't be 100% at anything if your priorities are divided. Men are often lacking at home cuz they have to make money
Big Think, please feature people in your videos who are credible and qualified on the subjects which they are speaking on, please don't pander to popularity. Mr. Peterson is a social psychologist who is primarily known for dabbling in moral and political philosophy, subjects in which is not educated, as well as dabbling in pseudo science and lying about his credentials, falsely claiming himself a neuroscientist and an evolutionary biologist and using fairy tales and the bible in conjunction with scientifically false arguments, like the whole "lobsterian" debacle. I'm sure you're well aware that his is not respected among the scientific community and his base are right wingers and incels, for emotional and political reasons rather intellectual ones. You are damaging your credibility by featuring him in your videos. As a matter of fact, Jordan's statements are counter to actual studies that find that women are who are child free by choice are actually generally happier than women who do have children (Psychology Today). So anyone watching his videos should take his statements as merely a personal opinion and not a qualified professional or academic one.
And to answer your question, nearly every single woman in this economy has to work whether she wishes to or not, and every single working mother aside from the extremely wealthy who can afford nannies struggles with balancing both of these priorities partly because of anti-family corporate culture, an idealization of motherhood which results in much guilting and shaming of women struggling to balance these obligations, and because men, generally do not contribute equally to caring for their own children and maintaining their own household, even when they and their partners work equal hours, or even if they actually work more than their husbands. Women and men participate equally in the economy, yet women still shoulder the vast majority of the world's unpaid labor. Every single woman I know who has children deals with that, whereas men do not face an equal number of demands and are able to have a family and children without feeling torn and pressed to make sacrifices, thanks to the burdens shouldered by women. Which is a reality Mr. Peterson is never going to address, because it doesn't suit his agenda or fit into his narrative.
Only flaw in what he is saying is a single man in is 40s who is highly successful in career may feel the same way. I left to the US for higher studies on scholarship at 29 and got placed in well-paying job post-graduationon at 31. I spent my money on gadgets, food, movies, got a new car, traveled to a few places and sent home gifts. But the excitement of " I made it" only lasted for a year or so. At personal front I felt stuck and dating was so not easy. I remember feeling empty admist all the aderaline rush. I am currently dating a Indian girl so things are better but If someone like me stayed single till 40 and never had a family, I could see them going into depression for sure.
Many in quest of success focus too much on career and miss out to develop social skills for dating or to show/manage emotions. Both men and women are victims of it.
@@SatishKumar-uz7io Well, but that's not the only flaw in what he's saying. He's saying women need to be reminded that their reproductive capability is finite and focusing on career may cause us to bypass the opportunity to have a family. We DON'T need to be told that because we already know AND people tell us this CONSTANTLY anyway. You also don't need to talk to people about their reproductive plans because they're none of your business. He doesn't address the reasons that women view family and career as either-or (because men don't contribute equally to childcare and household duties so women have to sacrifice disproportionately within the relationship) and assumes that getting pregnant is the only way to have a family, when millions of children in foster care are praying for a permanent home. People should have children when they are ready to financially and emotionally, and those times aren't also going to match up with peak fertility years, but that doesn't mean you can't have a family.
"The reason you get paid for your work is because you are doing something that you wouldn't choose to do if you weren't being paid". That statement is actually harsh, but actually a fact and real....waoh
I was thinking I was the only person who caught it. Pretty harsh AF.
I don't agree with him on this one. You study a career to feel acomplished at the end of your life, it's not a punishment. Try wasting your oppurtunities and you will become resentful when you get okd
@@tulipanrosas Have you ever been in a workplace or are you a student? Even with salary, most people hate their jobs, let alone do it for virtually for free just to feel "accomplished". Speaking of accomplishment, finding happiness is an accomplishment too, even if it means being a stay-at-home mom or a farmer.
@@tulipanrosas if money ain't a byproduct of whatever you do - it's a job not a career.
Depends what you do for a living
I have no interest in children but it's pretty obvious having a "career" is not the most fulfilling thing in life.
I'd bet cash money that no-ones last words were ever 'I wished I'd worked more. . .'.
SAME.
Same
I feel the same way. I'm 52 but look like I'm in my late 30s and people still tell me it's not too late for me to pump out kids I don't want. That should be the first thing we get society to change. Stop talking to women like that! Stop. It's none of your business. I find it's not men doing it. When men do bring it up, it's usually after they wish me a happy Mothers Day and I tell them I'm not a mom. But it's non-stop from other women. Miranda from Sex & The City was right -- motherhood is a cult. Moms seemingly are always on the hunt to recruit. Women who do this need to knock it off.
@@johnbull1568 I think Tezuka's words were actually something of the sorts
but then again, an exception that confirms the rule
I just wanted to add something to the table. It's so important to plan these things and talk them out with your partner as well. My parents haven't been great at talking about kids before having any and now their relationship is completely broken. They fight every single day. My mom does everything (cleans, pays the bills, makes food, takes care of me and my brother, and that hasn't been easy because we have some health problems and they were worse when we were young, she did everything alone, my dad only used to drove her to the hospital sometimes). Dad doesn't even know what being a parent is. He is always mad at us when he has to drive us to school. He gets mad when we need any kind of help around the house really. He is always shouting at us. He has developed an alcohol problem as well. They want a divorce, we want a divorce too (we the kids) but they can't get one because we (the kids) would both want to live with our mom but she doesn't earn enough money to take care of all three of us. So their life is a mess because dad never really wanted to be a parent. He wanted kids, but he doesn't want the responsibility of being a parent. Make sure you want to be a parent as much as you want to have a kid. Don't be like dad. So just to make it clear: Some people are just better off not having any kids. They are just not made for it. It's gonna make the families miserable and they'll make their lives miserable as well.
Hey, I'm from the other side of the world, but growing up my condition was exactly the same as you. Now, I, my mom, and my younger brother are all doing great, recently moved into an apartment I and my mom bought. Things can get better if you work hard. Don't give up. If your dad doesn't earn anything, I think you all should divorce. Btw, my parents divorced when I was 12, I wholeheartedly agreed with that. Now I'm almost 24.
Sounds like dad is a big baby
@@eneveasi Thank you for the analysis
@@eneveasi yup. My mom even points that out to him quite often.
@@bat-amgalanbat-erdene2621 That's the problem. My dad owns the house and makes the money we live off from. There are also "social problems" if you could call them that. Our house is like "the meeting place" for all our family and friends. It's like the fun house. All of it would be ruined if they were to get a divorce. My mom doesn't want to risk it, even if he is the biggest pain in the butt ever and he treats her horribly most of the time. I think she just sucks it up for us. I don't know if it's worth it though. They have been fighting for as long as I can remember.
The flip side to this comes from stay at home moms who don't have a life outside of the family and when she becomes an empty nester she suffers from depression and loneliness. Balance is the key. The acceptance of the fact not everyone is made for parenting. Great video thanks for posting
We should always find a balance. Either or is never the answer. Striving to create balance is the answer.
@@moulikaroy2366 thank you for your comment. I totally agree.
Or vice versa:a career woman who works from home and get depressed because sometimes she would feel lonely and want to have a companion like a husband or a child.
@@skryvazena6548 Thanks for your comment.
Great point.
But it comes down to the individual's own sense of actualisation. Empty nester syndrome is the sign that the parents' lives weren't balanced in the first place and that they got distracted from thinking about it so long as they had their children with them.
Usually though, if you have children after age 30, you already have a pretty good idea about what you can do with your life later on; once your kids leave. :)
I am German and I live in Greece and people here usually plan their lifes including being a parent. And that includes men, because most Greek men are very dedicated to their children and grandchildren.
My husband and I both work reduced hours in order to share household and parenting (we have two children now aged 11 and 15).
We first tried the classic arrangement of me staying home and him working full time,but he was unhappy and I felt like I was getting dumber every day. So I started working part time and he quit his job and found something with less hours. And then he kept reducing and I started adding hours to my worktime. At the moment I work more hours than him and I feel like for us this is perfect. He is much better than me with keeping the house clean and helping the kids with their homework and I love my job.
So I think this is not just something women should think about, but all people.
This concept is not an option for Americans. Two part time jobs will not pay the bills.
@@jprob2443 so who takes care of the children?
@@helgaioannidis9365 Either one parent stays home, the retired grandparents watch them for free, you pay almost a whole salary’s income to daycare, or you find jobs that have staggered shifts so that someone is always home with the kids, but the parents don’t see each other much.
@@janeddooee thank you for answering. To me this sounds like between one works full-time and one stays home or both work full-time and pay one salary for daycare and both work reduced hours I pick the last one. I mean,we don't have much money that way, but we have a good life and both have a close relationship to our children and pass on our knowledge and values to them.
@@helgaioannidis9365 I'm in the US and we are doing it traditional. I am a full-time housewife/mother and he is a full-time breadwinner. I have a master's degree in business, but once we had a child I realized I wanted my kids to have a parent there with them all the time. I'm currently planning on homeschooling. Thankfully my husband is basically his own boss and has flexibility to choose his hours whenever. He helps at home when he's here and we alternate giving each other breaks to ourselves. It worked out well for us to take the route of more money, especially after coronavirus hit. US policy on that has sucked. And you never know when the economy could take a dip. This is just our vision though. Everyone goes with what works best for them. US policies to accommodate working women with families are crap compared to those in places like Europe. Most women here go back to work within one month of childbirth. Even as early as 2 weeks.
Yeah but motherhood isn't for everyone. Some women just don't have that urge to have children and that's also fine. Better to not have children then to have kids you never wanted.
True,but I think it's fair to say it's the minority of women who are like that.
Yes, I know a woman who never wanted children and is very happy she never had them. She is an extremely nice person, but I have noticed that she really does not care for children. She is nice to them, but you can see there isn't a connection.
@@dawne5139 yeah I think it's okay to not have a need for children and not want any harm to come to them. I don't hate kids but I simply have no desire for them. People who really love kids and actually want to dedicate their lives to their children should be the ones who have them. Not because society says so.
Yeah, if you’re resistant to having kids or don’t feel ready, people say that will change once the kid is there...that’s a pretty big gamble and affects every aspect of your life for 18+ years and the psyche of an entire human being. I’d rather regret not having kids than have one that doesn’t feel wanted.
@@dawne5139 lmao. I'm 33, and have never held a baby in my life. I really don't feel any happiness when I look at kids/babies. I have 0 urge to hold or play with them.
I love being a mom! I don't miss the career. Lost my job due to economy/pandemic and that's ok. Love being home with my child.
Do you have a kids?
Admire your view. But unfortunately we do need money to have at least a dignified way of living, did you get another job yet?
Most people are a few pay cheques from homelessness.
Cheers to you lady
My mother lost her job during the subprime crisis in 2008, it was the best thing that ever happened to us.
We lost wealth buy gain happiness, fulfillment and most important of all I gain a mother that was 24 hours for us.
I have studied science of happiness, I want to add some scientific findings and perspectives here. People want easy truths, but the reality is much more complicated. Humans are complex and diverse, and there are many types of happiness. Parenthood can be all, positive, neutral or even devastating. I want to share some main findings from the happiness science on parenthood here:
1) General life satisfaction: (Only) in the first 1-2, fresh parents report on average a higher general life satisfaction. Most are excited and happier - but only in the first 2 years. The statistical findings are consistent, throughout the 2 years, the satisfaction falls slowly back the individuals (genetic) base line level. The main reason in short: parents adapt (call hedonic adaption). Statistically speaking, after the first two years of parenthood, parents stay on the average level of their baseline happiness. This perspective says: For most parents, parenting has only a (!) short term positive effect (max 2 years). In a long run, children do not increase the general life satisfaction. The satisfaction stays on the base line level for the next 20 years.
2) Emotions: Parents report both - higher negative and higher positive emotions - after the birth of the child. This is not a contradiction - positive and negative emotions are (!) separate systems. While enjoying time with the child causes a lot of extra positive emotions, parents face a lot of more stress, burden, duties and complications. In short: Parents feel more joy, but more burden and stress - at the same time.
3) Changes in other life dimensions: Children lead to significant changes in many other life dimensions. Important to note: How the change looks like can be very different, depending on every human. People report differences in the dimension of finance, spouse relationship, sexual life, friendships, free time/leasure etc. Common changes are: less time, disrupted sleep patterns and fatigue, more financial stress, loss of distant friends/friendships. Some report a worse relationship with their significant other, some a worse sex life. While the negative changes rather outweighs the positive, parents report high levels in meaning/purpose though (point four below)
4) Meaning/purpose: Even though parenting is indeed hard and demanding, many parents find a lot of meaning and purpose in raising their children. Purpose is a separate and special type of happiness dimension. Having purpose in life can
Summary: Parenthood and the effect on happiness is complicated. I remember reading a book that took (!) 200-300 factors into account, trying to figure out what factors lead to more happiness, what factors lead to more suffering and what factors are redundant. In short: It's complicated - and everything is possible.
I hope these scientific perspectives could add some value here :).
I have never met anyone who isn’t glad they had children - even those who aren’t happy with how they turned out.
@@missbee9140 I've met a lot of people who regret having kids to the extent of mistreating them or neglecting them.
For #1, is this really a 2 year thing or is it a coincidence that's when children are starting to run around and have tantrums?
For #2, as someone without children, I cannot feel the level of joy as a parent can, and I do believe them when they say it's worth it. I feel like a picky eater that simply hasn't experience extremely delicious food. But it's a matter of if that experience is very important to me. At this time, I'm fine not experiencing that profound level of joy.
@@missbee9140 yeah because people can just openly admit that they regret having their children, right?
Lmao
You will get crucified and blamed a terrible person if you express feeling that way.
I have two close friends who told me that while they love their children more than anything else, they wouldn’t have them if they could live their life all over again. Parenthood wasn’t worth it for them.
If you want to hear more honest stories, the Facebook page “I regret having children” has hundreds of it.
Would be interesting to have any of those results subdivided by single- vs two-parent. Or by both work, one works and which one, etc. Single vs two in home seems to be the biggest factor
I completely agree. I live in South Korea now, and here men thank women for their sacrifice of giving up their career to stay home and take care of children. This is such a noble and respectful attitude compared to what women face in the west, where staying at home with children is almost considered lazy.
It's not considered by men but by feminism
No staying at home to look after kids is never lazy or not having kids or not having a job isn't lazy
What you are describing sounds horrid. Men must take care of their kids as much as women do, not expect sacrifice and a servant of all work at home.
I live in the west. Yes, people tend to think it's a waste of time, being lazy and really put no value in it. I'm thankful i have the opportunity to stay at home with my children. I think it has great value. I look at it as an investment in my family and in my children. It's not all about me, and life is sweet!!
@@a.humphries8678 It absolutely makes a massive difference! When I see what kids achieve here in Korea versus the west, I realize we’ve got it all wrong. Personally, I’ve decided I will not have children unless I can stay at home with them. I’m glad you’re able to be there for your kids 😊
My mom is 60 and have 4 kids she said motherhood is NOT for everyone. Being a mom is a lifetime commitment, she’s happy to be a mom but it didn’t fulfill her life she let go a lot of opportunities and dreams for her family, she has a lot of if only. That’s why she is very supportive of me of not having children. She says at the end of the day what is important you are happy, contented and no regrets.
we are filipinos btw.
As opposed to working for a corporate and not having kids?
@@jldp24 used to work n d government but now i have my own business, and yes i love my life now esp diring d pandemic without children!!!! You have no idea how hard it s for parents here n d Philippines to be d teacher and at d same time the parent hahahahahah
All my friends r going crazy!!!!! Hahahahahah
They’re like you r so lucky u dont have kids hahahahahaha
@@samanthakiu4055 well good for you if thats what you want.
Important life choices, and sharing! Life didn't offer many 1950's women, any real choices about their lives! Even if you do not have biological kids, you can make other ... very beneficial maternal, spiritual contributions to the world! God bless! 💗👍
@Wake No. Trust God first! Be appreciative of the life you have! Good, interested, and supportive folks ... create nice families! If you don't find the right life partner .... for you, better you remain single, .... and make another kind of meaningful life, with God's help too! It's a beautiful world ... to know this is always possible! 💗
Even when women do stay home it’s nice if they can have something to fall back on. I went to college and worked and now focusing on my kids. Each year as they get older I add more things that interest me back into my life. It’s hard to be balanced.
My wife and I have been trying to find this balance, and it's really hard
Women should definitely have something to fall back on in case things don’t work out as they hoped. But family should always come first.
Love this video! The title is misleading as he speaks to more than motherhood vs career. So basically there are dimensions of life... 1. Career/interests, 2. relationship with your kids aka motherhood/relationship with friends, 3. relationship with your spouse, and 4. childhood or growing up in a family. If you miss one of these, you won’t feel complete. And any one thing won’t complete you. You’re more than a career woman, mother or any label. You’re a woman that is multidimensional. Shocking I know? I think people are multifaceted and I love that he talks about this. Its important to understand your calling in your season of life. It’s hard to understand WHEN the ideal time for motherhood is. 20s? 30s? The case for 20s is that you’re more attractive, fertile and healthy likely contributing to better DNA of your children. Case for 30s is you know what adulthood is and how to raise well adjusted adults. I’m rooting for the 30s as I prize maturity, self awareness and emotional/financial stability , but I understand that some things were designed to operate better in the 20s. Lol If you think your relationship with your spouse is everything... you become needy and unattractive. If you think kids are everything, you’re in for a rude awakening when they leave and start their own life. If you think career is, you will face disappointment. But life is, all of these things. :) people need to stop using reductionist titles on videos but hey that's what gets views you know...
It really doesn’t have to be one or the other. So many successful businesses women have happy families. I agree that it is important to have an education or something to fall back on, for most of history women would be stuck in abusive marriages or with cheating husbands because they had no way of leaving. I don’t know why so many people act like men can have a career and family but women can’t. Most men have kids before the age that a woman’s childbearing years are up anyways, so it’s not like guys have some big advantage to women in this department. Especially if your kids are public or private schooled. That’s 8 hours of the day right there.
@@agees924 I think you’re out of touch with reality. Elementary school here starts during work hours here, and ends during work hours. School hours weren’t designed with working mothers in mind, nor were doctor or dental visits, or sick kids...
This is the problem, everyone else is trying to tell someone how to live their life and what they should think and believe, whether it is marriage, love, dating, sex, career, parenthood, etc... . A full filled life is unique as the person who is living it. LIVE YOUR LIFE, BE HAPPY AND DO NO HARM.
Well said 👏
We're telling people what to do because they are doing harm though. For example single moms. They're harming all of society with their poor parenting. That's why we're telling them to make better decisions.
@@EsotericOccultist Ok first of all, NO you can't tell anyone what to do because you are not living their life nor do you contribute to their life. Secondly, not all single moms are bad parents, just like all non-single mothers are great parents either. That is such an ignorant comment to make. There are different reasons why a woman would become a single mother. For example, she may have lost her husband at war, he may have died unexpectedly, or he was an unhealthy and abusive person for the child or he decided to leave and want nothing with the child. You don't know the circumstances that have led that person to become a single parent. Also, it takes two to have a child, unless you are taking unnatural measures. So, why do you think Single MOMs are harming society and not SINGLE PARENTS or not BAD PARENTS.
I am curious to know your reasoning.
Whatever single mom who you consider a bad parent doesn’t reflect the entire single mother community.
@@JR1481M1 I wish people can accept the truth even though they still want to live how they want. Live how you want but accept the consequence at least.
In response to your single mom's question:
According to the US Department of Health, Center of Disease Control, Justice and Behavior, National Principal Association, Texas Department of Correction and USDHHS Bureau of Census.....
66% of children who commits suicide are raised by single moms.
90% of all homeless and run away children are raised by single moms.
85% of children behavior disorder are raised by single moms.
80% rapists are raised by single moms.
80% children with anger problems are raised by single moms.
71% of all high school dropouts are raised by single moms.
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse are raised by single moms.
68% children raised by single moms are likely to smoke, drink and use drugs.
70% of youths in state-operated institutions are raised by single moms.
80% of all children in prison are raised by single moms.
53% of girls who got married as teenagers are raised by single moms.
711 times more likely for children raised by a single mom to have children as teenagers and 92 times likely to get divorced.
Girls raised by single moms are 2 times likely to be sexual active.
Children raised by single moms are 3 times likely to be poor, 3 times likely to be a victim of child abuse, 3 times likely to engage in criminal behavior, 60% of their marriage collapse within 15 years and finally 50% of childrend raised by single moms has not stepped foot in their fathers house.
@@jeffreyagu2221 cite your sources because this looks like false statistics.
please bear mind that it takes two to have a child. I would have to ask where is the father in all this? Everyone wants to blame the single mom but not the absent parent
The reason why parents don't have those conversations because so many women were unhappy with only having motherhood. The grass isn't necessarily greener on the otherside. Sometimes it's harder to start your career after your children are grown and out the house. I recommend balance. Think about what is important to you. But don't buy the lie that career isn't important because you may look up later and hate that you didn't do all the things you wanted to do. I had my child at 30 and still miss the things I could have done. Or you may be the woman who chose career and miss family. Find a balance. Right now I'm a mother and I figured out how to make both work for me. And no, I'm not saying my way is the way. For others, it's one or the other and not both. Again, figure you out.
90% of people didn't do all the things they wanted to do
@@moisesbeyond that's such an over simplification... I may have generalized, but it doesn't take much to get the point. Not doing a few things you wanted when you're free and single and not doing what you wanted because you have to be responsible for children or you're worn out from a husband and children are not even in the same realm...
WELL SAID!
It is hard if only one person working in many modern societies
@@malakatan3235 Women double size the market job, when abundance of resource the price of that drop
Parenthood matters. Why aren't fathers part of this equation?
Because they don't have to sacrifice career to be fathers
@@museitup4741 yeah, an absent father
Different from what feminism has told you, biology affect women and men differently. A man does not have a time clock to have children, women do.
It is not about just biological clocks. Are all single men in their 40s who dont have partner or kids happy. A steady partner with kids is a good life for men too
It's easier for us men because we have a longer time frame by which we can become fsthers
Not all women want to be a mother. But the overwhelming majority do. And this “motherhood” job is a long term, demanding, can’t-quit job. Many emergencies and lots of obligations that interfere with a secondary job. You can’t be equal if you can’t give 100%. Now - men who choose parenting above career are at the same situation exactly. They will get paid less and promoted less and later than men who don’t .
First of all being a motherhood and parenting child is not a job.. its a pleasure.. pleasure women always find while they give their love and care.. second of all men can never be successful as a women.. parenting and looking after kids..!! Only women in late 30s know what it's like to alone without any kids running around them..
Preach
Lmao and those women are the most depressed, what they gonna do be happy working when they no longer procreate while their friends have kids lmao smh
@@stevewalker6240 That's what clinical psychologist do.. they take majority in account.. and minorities... well you think they are unique... But god only knows what they sacrificed in their life in order to be soo "unique"... You know why majority of them don't choose to be unique.. cause it takes so sacrifice... That "minority" of people have no idea how much they have to bare it in order to be in such
@@Amaury5k i think they will feel more isolated when they choose to work for longer hours.. when their friends and neibhours don't.. but I think they "some women" enjoy the kinky feeling.. where there are lots of men around.. and they become the center of attraction.. which is not a good think
Straight fact about me:
Im divorced. I have a kid. My ex doesn't give any ally money.
My career has been saving me and my daughter for 11 years.
For me domino effect was that, if the man cannot value ur motherhood, he will not support u to be the "home mother", by being the breadwinner.
When his support gets off, i have to take on his role of breadwinner, then take on my role of mother at home.
In the meanwhile, my ex, is enjoying life, spending his whole salary on himself and relaxing with girlfriends.
Easy to say "motherhood".
You picked him. Take ownership of your bad decisions.
@A Pagan Feminist no. Take ownership of your breeding choices. You know... Be strong and independent. That's part of the recipe. Making sure before you commit to something.
I'm in the same boat with you but I have 4 kids with the only man I dated for 10 years and married to 17 years. We talked about having kids and everything before we got married and had kids but he still couldn't be a parent. Kids stressed him out so he always be with us at his convience only. Eventually we drifted too far apart that I found it better for me and my children to live seperately from him. We always had 2 incomes and I agree with you that having a career saved me and my kids. That is why I kept advising women to not plan to be a stay at home mom all the their life. At least work a part time job when the children started school. Be in the job market just so that they can build up their resume and have a use for it when they needed. Also, 2 incomes is better than one.
Idk my mum is stay at home, she's 50 now, all her kids are grown. Parenthood isn't particularly fulfilling either tbh
Probably because you're a huge disappointment! Oof if that hurt you, sorry, but you're wide open. Haha
True. Parenting alone can not be fullfiling.
did you ask her?
@@killerscrop you sound like you need therapy. You probably went through/going through a lot. May Christ help u
@Angela I had some time to be a stay-at-home mom meanwhile my son was of infant through preschool age. I really value that time I participated in his fundamental upbringing and I took pride in our home, routines, cooking, and looking out for our general health and well-being. Now that my son is of school age and functioning more independently, I am pursuing my career; I have continued concerns for his education, but I feel in either work or home, I am right where my family needs me to be and it has been very satisfying/ fulfilling.
This might not be what everyone does, but it has worked out well for me and my family. I feel dignified in whatever work I have set myself into.
The only lie is that women aren't 'real women' if they don't have kids or they're 'useless' if they don't have a career. As women our society makes us feel that we have to do both, but that's not always possible. I've struggled with this myself as I had to leave my career to raise my son. I just couldn't do both financially, mentally or physically as I had recently been diagnosed with a chronic illness. Ladies, 'you do you' and don't let anyone make you feel less than a woman..you are a Superwoman 💪🦸🏼♀️
Let me ask you something. Where is the husband?
@@donelmukiza2357 What husband?
@@donelmukiza2357 🎯
You would get destroy in any work field
I needed that....thankyou
The most important job a person can do...raise a child into a decent human being
And damned few are qualified for this job! Perhaps it is best that so many men and women are realizing their loss too late in life to attempt it. Yes, there are fewer children now, and that will have a sad impact on humanity, culture, economics, and more. But...at least those people raising children love what they do, and they're good at it. (Or at least far better than the others!)
And it's not being promoted much...
That is correct, but before that, we have to gain a good amount of certainty that we are decent too and that we have come out stronger and learned from our mistakes and might not accidentally or subconsciously teach something to kids that might stray them(not saying that straying from a certain path is wrong, rather, understanding our own capability to have a feedback loop when we stray and teaching that feedback loop to kids.)
If raising a child is the most important thing "a person" can do, then why is Mr Peterson's speech focused only on women? Aren't men considered "a person" fit for this "most important job"?
@@annagoula5605 the thing is that you can still have a baby even if you don't want to marry or even commit to anyone as a woman. If a man wants a baby, he can't go to a sperm bank since he does not have a womb. So, maybe they can adopt but that's not the best solution. Also what if you and your partner are trying to make a baby but you two give up after trying 2 years because you can't have a baby? I think that'll make you very unhappy. So that's really the problem that when you say as a woman that you don't want kids then you are taking the ability to give birth away. I mean if most women decided to not want any kids then you are basically taking away the baby making from men without asking them first. And I think thats why people say that you are selfish. Like, what would happen if over let's say, 1 year, the women who says that they don't want children, their numbers grow to 80% or higher? I think people, especially man would be angry with them. Because that's like a selfish thing, you don't share what you've got, what I don't have and maybe what I need.
I did not go into a career for fulfilment. I did it, so I can be self-reliant. Jobs are not perfect but they offer much more freedom and flexibility (and less means to control you) than being part of a traditional nuclear family where the man is the main provider.
Woah very very well said sister. You summed up why women need to work and why women started to want to work in the first place. Most men control and treat women badly if they didn't earn money 100 years ago and it's still true now. Women need financial freedom , if something happens to the man who will they rely on ? It's easy to find a good job than.a good man for sure. Not saying we don't need men but it's easy if we don't rely on him for money.
There's a difference between a career and a job... For one of them, a person does only for money. The other a person would do it regardless of being paid.
I believe marriage or the "nuclear family" can have the same type of concept, because not every marriage is the same (just as not every friendship/relationship is the same). You choose what kind of marriage or family you have.
It's completely rational to believe a person can choose whatever they want to do with their life (married or single... Job or no job). Adults have choices.
What doesn't seem logical is to assume one will be controlled in a relationship/marriage. It seems more of a perception issue on your end. Could be from experience. But it sounds like it's coming from a place of fear. For that, I'm truly sorry if that is the case. But adults do have choices.
@@yashivuvbolshomdomenakholm8274 you don’t have complete control over what kind of family you have.
@@rondolo1 And you don't have complete control over a job either... Even if you own your own company. Life is full of surprises.
@@yashivuvbolshomdomenakholm8274 true, but difference with a job is that *usually* you can walk away from a really terrible one and find a better one.
I think quite the opposite actually, i think we're being fed this story how motherhood will make us feel complete and accomplished, and if you disagree then its as if something is wrong with you
Exactly! Why are women all judged so harshly for not wanting to be mothers. Not all of us want a child. I know plenty of women who have never wanted children.
I agree, maybe it's all about how you deliver the message... as in that "becoming a parent CAN be a fulfulling thing and option, that one should at least think about deeply", rather than "if you don't produce kids you will regret it later". I also think it ties in with what Peterson said quite a few times, that to live a fulfulling life you need to take on some responsiblities, and caring for kids can be one of those, that most people chose some time in their life, while others decide for other responsibilites.
Probably depends on the culture you live in. I was taught college and career were the most important.
It's ridiculous, nothing will fulfill you totally, like JP said you have to have all 4s at least. It's kinda obvious honestly.
@@elijahwise3060 how can you say that? feeling fullfilled is quite subjective or not?
as in you can have everything and still feel unsatisfied and lacking in life.
Just because I don't want a typical career doesn't mean I want to be a mother. Women are not driven by their uterus.
Peterson never said those were the only 2 things. He actually lists 4 things. All he was saying is career is rarely a human being’s magnus opus which is true of most people.
I knew from childhood that I wanted to be a mother over having a career. I know it’s not for everyone but it IS or at least should be an actual choice. I’ve had to rise above people trying to make me feel bad for not wanting a career. My husband and I came to an understanding early on that was MUTUALLY agreeable and we have both been extremely happy with our arrangement.
@Cute Monster I wasn’t shamed for wanting children, but for ONLY wanting children. I was letting womanhood down for not wanting both children AND a career.
Hello Amanda, how are you doing?
I knew I wanted to be a mum and have a career haha. But parenthood comes with sacrifice so I just need to be realistic, and remember there’s nothing stoping me from establishing my educational roots now, and getting the job I want when I’m older.
i always wanted that too. To just stay home, have kids and be the best mom and wife ever. all around me there was NO support for that ESPECIALLY my mother. And i am a baby boomer . it was already starting to infect our nation then.
I'm a career woman, at her early 40's, single, no children. Just want to say, of course I long to have a family, however, sometimes a woman can not find or meet the right one during her twenties/thirties to get into a marriage/family. I had many friends back then, but no one fell in love with me and vice versa to the point of wanting to get married. I don't understand why, I didn't specifically pursue a career, but I couldn't let my self depend on others or my parents which would happen if I did not pursue a career. This career vs motherhood is not really that helpful. It gives some insights, but at the end not everyone can get what they want in a perfect timing. I did find love at my late thirties but it was a one-sided if you want to have a love-based marriage life. So, I might be too ideal, but I had this small experience that even a relationship does not guarantee a happiness. It's always come back to our own self as how we find our own happiness regardless career or motherhood.
Amen, so well said!!!!
My wife and I met in our late 30s, got married and been in a happy marriage since then, we went through years of assisted reproduction nightmare and gave up eventually but we have come to be in peace with it now. She was just like you. But I was different, I listened to the wrong people, I spent my 20s and 30s thinking marriage is not for me and I will stay happily single forever... so I think it’s important to talk to younger people about the importance of marriage and children, many young men and women need to hear this coherently from intellectuals like Dr Peterson
@Afix Thank you for your wish. I agree that to live alone the whole time is not nice and for some people, including me, it could bring loneliness. But, to live with a person who is not compatible with you can bring loneliness, too. Yeah, it's not an easy thing.
Exactly
@@griselgriselda2901 I'm 26 turning 27 and guys are still like this. They just want to have "fun".
This is very interesting. My husband and I were able to make it work, but it did require a lot of focus, familial support, and some serendipity.
1) I was able to graduate with my PhD at 26 and immediately start in the workforce (industry, instead of academia, as it provides a better work-life balance).
2) I met my husband at 20 and we got married at 26. We were both on the same page about kids (he loves them) and spending (both frugal). We decided that in our life, we wanted to prioritize having kids and volunteering/charity. And he is a wonderful man who is fully involved in every aspect of our life; being married to him is one of the biggest blessings of my life.
3) Although I am in (sadly) a niche career, my husband is not, so he's been able to change jobs in the metro area and no one has had to give up a job to follow the other.
4) We have family nearby to help.
5) I have never been "all career"; that's pretty much idolatry. My identity and worth is in Christ.
I had my kids at 28, 32, and 36. Currently, my husband and I are working at home while homeschooling our oldest two. It's hard and not the ideal choice, but an amazing opportunity to help them develop a (hopefully) lifelong love of learning.
Your life is really an exception. You have good luck. Very nice.
Finaly somebody who admits they have " family nearby to help". Great contribution to the discussion
Hello Katherine, how are you doing?
@@Ikaros23 I am that family that everyone runs to...In another state, in my 60s. It's not all it's cracked up to be. Stay single and childfree...You will be much happier.
Have a career or don't have one. Marry someone or don't. Have kids or don't. Listen to a clinical psychologist or don't.(no disrespect to Dr. Peterson) You do whatever you feel like you are meant to do in this world.
The best comment so far !
Totally gerardo...the only comment that makes sense here....let the woman do what she wants to do and I don't believe any woman saying no body told her she had to be a mother...a woman knows very well what she knows and fuck the society...they don't come to help a woman when she is cheated on and left by her husband ...she has to take care of herself.....a woman knows what she wants in her life n plz don't blame a woman n tell her she is only borne to have a baby...she can have both career n a a baby or just one of these and that's her choice
Exactly, it all come down to being your own individual, that’s all
Totally agreed! Plus, life is full of nuances, not just black and white
Agreed. But don't complain about the consequences that come with said decision. That's usually the most annoying thing that's been happening more and more now. Someone makes a choice and wonders why they don't get the benefits of the other choice that they didn't make. That's hypocritical and selfish as hell.
few days sago, while visiting my gynecologist, i heard a young women saying " BUT I DO NOT WANT TO BE A SINGLE MOTHER, my mother was, mothers of almost all my friends were single mother....."
men are not responsible, society teaches them to use women and when a problem occurs they just run away.
i do not think that ignoring this fact is helping anyone, mr. Jordan !!
This is why in islam men are told if you want to be with someone you have to commit. Not go on dates but ask for her dad for permission and then talk to her. Once you get married it's an obligation on men to take care of her. It's a sin if you don't make her happy, don't give her time, don't support her and take care if her needs.
If you think about it this is a wisdom behind why sex before marriage is prohibited. So men do not take advantage of women. So women are not left alone to raise a child , work and etc.
@@HassanAli-rb5hq yeah, and then she shows too much skin on her ankle by accident or looks to long at another man and he beats or kills her. There’s always a catch.
@@LT-et5rr ur saying the religion teaches that, bc extrapolating rare cases to an entire faith is unfair
@@HassanAli-rb5hq it's not rare. Oh and, muta marriages, marrying 4 wives. 🆒
I grew up around women who had children and their own businesses, which gave them the flexibility to do work that they enjoyed and raise their children. I wanted to follow their example so I chose to have a home-based business.
As someone without children I notice that colleagues with kids have to jump through hoops to be able to work and look after children.
They also get lots of perks and advantages and people without kids need to step in and cover for them alot.
As a bigger societal issue you can see the huge problems with family structure not existing and people being told that it doesn't matter anymore and somehow a single mom working provides the same support as an entire family.
It's madness.
My coworkers with children are exhausted. Especially right now that they work from home. The kids don't understand what it means to have mom working at home. During our Zoom meetings they cry, shout and want to be in the meeting. I feel so bad for these ladies. I give them so much credit.
It is difficult for them, but the truth is still their kids are disrupting those meetings. And making it more stressful for all the meeting participants. All these are going to accumulate to make it even more undesirable for workplaces to hire mums
Someone has to tend to the children, how is that fair to have someone who depends on you to take care of them to be waiting for hours on end for you. They should have someone watch them or not work. I don't get it. I don't understand people, who have no problem with birth control, have children that they can never be with or properly raise.
The pandemic is just making evident what it happens behind the curtains. It upsets me that -in my case-, mostly men taking part in meetings discuss "trivialities" for ages. Every parent, at least the ones with small children, really know the value of time. Is not about sitting for hours getting "nothing done" and do so just to fulfill the "emptiness" of others. Children, we liked or not, are the future. So, I still do not get why tasks that are traditionally considered as "female" are not properly valued: like taking care of children, older family members, household, and so on. ..it is work, it is hard, it is exhausting and it's very relevant!!!!
@@MVBNov It all sounds like trivialities, but if that happens in meetings. It really means that none of the managers really know what needs to be done and they are sounding each other for office politics.
@@yivunqp963 yes. But in these times things should be managed more efficiently. If there is a meeting agenda, which should be the case if you are a good manager, the meeting will run smoothly. Everything can become relevant, but under the current conditions one must learn to prioritize. A meeting protocol can be easily sent per E-mail and be further enhanced in case of discrepancies or doubt. This would ease so much the life of parents with small children and save such uncomfortable and unnecessary moments. But is just my point of view.
I think the biggest benefit of a woman having a career is the security she gives herself. Otherwise she’s dependent on what her husband can give her, which is completely in his control. She’s also at a loss of her husband cheats on her or decides to one day leave her.
And I say this as a wife and stay at home mom. My life isn’t bad and my husband brings in enough money. I don’t regret my choice to live this way. Just saying that it can sometimes be a little unsettling when I realize the fate of my life is in his hands.
You should do low risk investing - just for you. Your account, your money. A wife should always have her own. And of course, a good life insurance policy on your husband as well.
the problem is, the western secular system has nothing in place to protect mothers. other than alimony.
That happened to me. Now in my 60's, I am struggling in an apartment. All that motherhood and wife business got me this. Ladies, don't let it happen to you.
This is only a concern if you chose poorly in your life partner. If you chose well, you have no reason to ever worry about going without
@@Pwnsweet that’s bullshit and you know it. People change. They are also good at hiding their true nature until they know they have control.
There’s no perfect solution, but it seems that the woman is always blamed for her situation. If you marry young, not knowing yourself or the partner well, not having an education or career, you run the risk of divorce and becoming a single parent with no way to support yourself and the kids. How does anyone know with certainty that they have found a life long partner? Yet a women who invests in an education and career, has learned what the world is really like, knows herself and sets a standard for what she will tolerate, may find herself older and alone because the world has decided she is no longer worthy due to her age. Could it be, that men just don’t want to deal with women who don’t tolerate bad behaviour? Younger women to,erase because they haven’t learned to assert themselves in relationships. But at the end of the day, the women with a career, she can support herself financially and find happiness depending on how she chooses to view her status as a single person. She could even afford to adopt a child as a single parent. So the joke is really on the men who scoff at women after a certain age. If he scoffs at a women’s age, he will scoff at his wife when she turns a certain age, even if he married her when she was young. The truth is, everybody ages, it’s all just relative.
Any chance you know what were the divorce rate before 1965? Were marriages successful back then? By success I mean life time partnership. My guess is that divorce rate was low and marriage rate was high back then as compared to today. Also adopting a child means you are going to be a genetic dead end. If you are happy with that then I don't see any reason for not adopting.
@ Andrea ,
This is only comment I have read that makes any damn sense.
Advice from divorce attorney: Don't get married.
@@Booboo-dl1vw In the past, women had no way to a good life except through marriage, and when this life was with a bad husband, there was no way out because she had no financial independence and the social pressures of a divorced woman were hell. So locking up a woman and blocking all the ways to get her out of her situation is the reason for the low divorce rates, but were these families a healthy environment? Were these women happy? What is the point of marriage if one partner is stuck and unhappy? And why is divorce considered bad if the children are in an abusive environment?
@@mafame6767 what's happiness?
Are we having this discussion with men too?
thank you that needs to be said
Amen!!!!
Now that you've said it.
Men can have children at any age with no damage or danger to them physically. A woman's time to birth children will end and become more difficult with age. If you want to be delusional and think that there's no difference between men and women, that's your choice. But it's reality. You should base your feelings on facts and not feelings, it's illogical.
Men think different. Women feel different about career vs motherhood
I make my own money incase my husband abuses me or abandons the family. If he leaves the family, you have no choice but to be the breadwinner. Men are unreliable.
Men have discovered this and often express the sadness of focusing on their career and not knowing their children.
Exactly. I feel guilty if just one day I work a lot and I don't dedicate time to my kid. It is like im missing a part of his life which won't come back.
thats why i am not having kids fam
Why aren't men sacrificing their "career" for being better fathers? Why is Jordan fixated on making women Jobless and poor ?
Because it is easier to control poor women.
because no woman gonna provide for a family, even if she has a job
One of them have to provide financial support. Fathers are more fit for this.
If you choose to become a mother or a father, having a succesful career can't be your priority because you have to take time off the workforce and stay at home with your children when they're young.
Putting children first and career second is the duty of all parents regardless of gender. So, I find the title of this video weird. I think it should be "the lie of career vs. parenthood"
This is why people criticize him. This is simply veiled sexism; his point here is not exclusive to women, so why does he specifically make it about women? Especially when the main problem women are fighting internationally is the expectation that they are supposed to be mothers first, not breadwinners. If his message really is "creating a family is just as important as having a good career," then why is he only targeting women?
@@HovercraftEDM he's speaking in terms of averages, not for each and every individual. And it's pretty obvious that in most cases where a parent takes time off work to focus on raising children, it's the woman.
@D L Men and women are biologically different and that is science, and no one is beefing with science. However, men and women are mentally different mainly because of societal structures. The factors that make men and women different mentally at birth are absolutely not as significant as Jordan likes to make them sound. That is the idea we are beefing with and that is what Jordan either doesn't understand or doesn't want to accept.
Men and women in our societies grow up differently and with different interests because of what general society believes men should be and what women should be. Society tends to believe men should be scientists more than they believe women should be scientists. This results in gender roles and gender norms. This means that we could have way more women in STEM fields and way more men in arts fields, but we as a society expose boys more to interests like computers and technology and girls more to interests like art and cooking. This is all purely societally constructed. This is why you have this push for more women in STEM fields, politics, sports, etc. We want to counteract this societal priming so that women are not discouraged from joining certain fields just because those fields are viewed by society as "men's jobs."
Women are not biologically less capable of exceeding in these roles, and the fact that women do not pursue these roles as much as men do is not a biological matter. It's a matter of societal priming. When you grow up only seeing male doctors on TV, your society only puts value on male sports, and you see so many more stay-at-home moms than stay-at-home dads, all of this is going to have an influence on the jobs you will be able to see yourself in as you grow up.
i think you are absolutely right, although mother are crucial than fathers they are both irreplaceable but they probably wanted views
Because men and women are not the same. We are different. The way men think about kids and women think about kids is different. Men can work more without being emotional about their kids. Women can't. It's because it's in a woman's biology. She would rather see her kids more than the father. It's not easy to be a mother and a worker. And so many women nowadays are being taught that it's not important to have children and that a career is enough to make life good. Well, it turns out that they are wrong. Women need to have kids. It's something that they only can do. Motherhood is important to women. If u are a woman, and you don't want kids, by all means don't have kids. But don't you come crying later in life regretting. Peace.
Im one of five girls, our mother could not cope so me and my elder sister took over raising our three youngest siblings. As a young adult 3 of my siblings had children, I was very active as an aunt, I love the bones off my nieces and nephews.
But now when I think of the possibility of having my own, I’m burnt at both ends of the candle.
Not all women have an infinite baby wanting shelf life, the can burn out their maternal resources.
My mom is a drug addict and I’ve been caring for babies since I was 5, Then I started having my own at 16. I enjoy it but I’m done having any more at 27. It’s wearing me out.
Exactly my thought. This is where I strongly disagree with Jordan. While I love kids, the thought of being financially stable and living a quiet life is stronger than the thoughts of pooping out little ones and going though the process of rasing them. I wish it was possible to pay good people to raise our kids without having a guilty conscience or coming off as a bad person.
And yet, it's important to recognize that how you feel right now is not how you will feel forever.
The reality is, when you're 30+ it becomes increasingly difficult to have your own children. The option gets taken away from you. Unfortunately, a lot of women don't realize that until it's too late.
By being a siblingparent to your own siblings, not just one but THREE, you have already felt the experience (/burden) of motherhood. Not fully. But in part. You must be exhausted and maybe even feel like you need to nurture your own self as the child you were, who was forced into a role of responsibility very early in life. I am not surprised you feel burnt out of maternal resources. You are amazing.
omg i totally relate to you , i raised my siblings and i m still raising the youngest brother( i am 24and he is 4 , i ve been rainsing since i was 12 and in addition to that i have a 18 years old sister who has mental problems so i do everything for her, the bathroom , cleaning her and feeding so bassically i raised 4 kids) , I havent found a job yet due to the economical crisis in my country but I am finishing my second masters degree and a diploma in multimedia , i feel like i didnt lived my age yet, i love kids and i really want to have my own when i get married but i just dont think i still have energy to do so
I am 71 and a woman. I started working straight after graduating from university and kept working for 42 years. I reached the highest positions that could be reached in my profession (both by men and women). I have two children and three grandchildren. Looking back and listening to what Jordan just said.....I hate to think what my life would have been If I did not have a fulfilling and rewarding profession.......I shudder, really !!!
Seems what he says is wrong?
@@Zeeno Giving advice on such matters is a no-no for me. People are so different, partners are so different, families are so different. This is life ! A trial and error journey :))))
@@mihaelatudor2417 do you have any regret in life so far
I wanna know how you manage motherhood and carrier both
@@aloowalia2849 I was lucky to have been born just after the war. To have started in life surrounded by people who only knew work and family. No consumerism, nothing wasted, trying to better ourselves through education. I think I was also lucky to have been born in Eastern Europe (not a joke). Because the party policy was that women were equal to men, and it never crossed my mind that it is otherwise. I had my first child after 7 years of marriage because I thought that we were then ready to take on new responsabilities. We had 7 months paid leave in the first year of the child's life (now they have 2 years), and every time the child was sick I could stay at home with pay. The kindergardens were free and they would keep the child until 5 pm. The elementary school also served hot lunches. So there was a lot of help from the state. Medical care was covered by the state insurance. Education was free. Families were nearby to help when needed. But I think that what helped me most (comparing to what I perceive to be today's problem), was the fact that when I decided to have kids I committed 100%. I was not raised with the idea that I have to "search for my hapiness, do only what makes me happy, live for the moment"... My success in career came after my kids went to college. I had a very good track record, and I had already moved organically up the ladder. To become member of the board and top executive in a financial institution at 46 years old is just right, I think. So, no. I do not have regrets. I could not give more than I did. Gladly. So I am ok :)))))
@@mihaelatudor2417 oh that's great then
Not every woman wants children or has maternal insticts. Moving on lol
True, not every woman knows or has a good career or a well paying white collar job
Exactly, i was feeling like an alien, whilst reading people comments about giving up their career and embracing motherhood. There is nothing wrong about that, but not everybody is built to the same mindset.
I would prefer to stay alone, and continue my career, which I had gained with all of my sweat, blood and tears and had been dreaming since childhood.
Well said 👍😎
@@gotnochill1924 exactly, also a man speaking of female preference is just a paradox within itself. A lot of women have fulfilling lives and love their jobs, to say that they are lying to themselves is simply wrong. I suppose we could also say that every man with a career is suffering because he is not a daddy? Lol its just wrong
Wow, he said women have a psychological problem if they don't want kids? Seriously messed up. He is effectively saying you are only sane if you want kids.
Most girls are taught by society that marriage is their greatest goal actually, which is sad.
It’s very interesting to hear a male’s perspective on women’s career vs motherhood.
Yet after watching, I wish more people could expand the narrative, not only addressing “motherhood” but “parenthood” instead.
Why do we need women to think twice about career or motherhood ambition, but men don’t?
It’s really feeling like someone’s pointing his finger away from himself here.
Cuz we both know the father wouldn’t do be able to do half of what the mother does if he becomes a house husband. He might be competent but he is a guy in the end, he is not so gentle and caring like a mom. Hence, if one has to leave their career, it would be the mom. The guy can do his universal purpose and provide to his family
He's literally talking about women right now, not everything needs to be about all sexes, all the time.
And then men get mad when mother's day is more honored and respected. Studies show even working moms who outearn their husbands spend more time with children than the fathers do. No excuse when the woman is the bread winner or equal. It's so much easier for men to be pro children because they're not doing the majority of raising. Fatherhood often plays a passive role in many children's lives.
@@sonderexpeditions I don't think anyone is pro or anti children because of the amount of work they're personally accounted for. Or at least, they'd be in the minority. Truth is every bit of effort that goes into raising children is a blessing, voluntarily adopted responsibility that feels effortless. I think it's a part of our biology that makes us feel that way. For the mom even more-so! Mom carries baby in her body for 9 months, she is biologically obsessed with her baby for lack of a better word, because of the evolutionary process (moms were the last line of defense for their children, inattentive moms children died, and didn't pass down their genes) . This applies for fathers too, but maybe not equally, I don't know, it would be interesting to find out! My point is anything that is a choice is affected by our biology, biologically it makes sense why a mother may be more involved in her childs life on average more than the father.
Men can have a kid at any point. Women have a window of opportunity they need to pay respect to or else they miss out.
Be a mother when you feel ready to be responsible for a life or more if motherhood is what you want. Motherhood can also come from adoption and other means. I am actually thankful I wasn't a teen mother or something like that though.
When a mother gives birth to a child, there is a huge surge of oxytocin in her body, which is similar in animals as well, to form such a bond with adopted kids is not very easy especially with busy lifestyles.
@@shyamp992 can you talk to my mom about that bond...
@@shyamp992 If you were to mention about oxytocin, I would rather chuckle. I, for one, don't necessarily want to be (bonded) with people I sleep with despite sharing oxytocin with them...
Also, you may be in for a surprise for the fact that a lot of biological mothers treat own their child(ren) like shit. Many children have developed trauma from maternal/parental abuse and even have to dismiss their own mothers/parents.
@@mischiefmanaged3715 but they can't abandon them even if they want to and have no feelings of guilt and I'm certainly not talking about you and your personal life. It's rather a broad statement.
@@alalducente did she abandon you right after birth?
Im a 36 year old woman I don't feel this overwhelming desire to have baby. I am happy doing my own thing. Is Jordan Peterson a mind reader who is able to tell what every woman is feeling and thinking? I can't relate to what he is saying.
He talks about most women, not everyone. Also who knows what you will think 10 years from now when you no longer have any chance to conceive, most people think differently when the door is permanently shut. Finally he is a psychologist, his clients tell him that, the same client will probably tell everybody else she is a strong woman happy to have an education and career and so on.
I love how he is just taking case studies from his own practice and generalising it to all women. There’s a lot of women in the world who don’t want children. I guess we all have “psychological problems”.
@@tantiss99 as opposed to your “a lot of women in the world”. Choosing not to have children is against everything the nature stands for, from the first living organism billions of years ago to us humans today. It’s understandable for whatever reason you choose to be childless but don’t get offended if someone says it’s unnatural.
@@AJayQDR I really don’t care bc you can’t make me and put me down for it.
@@AJayQDR Death is also natural. Not everyone is happy to die.
"No one ever talked to her about the fact that she eventually would want to have a family ?" Really ? Did this patient live outside of our human society ? Wherever I go on this Earth I and every woman of childbearing age I know has been asked by random strangers and their mothers. Still I wouldn't need any one to ask me, when you know, you know.
Nobody that she would listen to. I was exactly in that lady’s situation years ago, educated and successful career, nobody in my circle ever suggested I should get married, even get a girlfriend, on the contrary many were telling me I am living my life to the fullest without knowing anything else about my private life.
Family and relatives, sometimes strangers like my gardener would tell me to get married but I never considered their advice. You can call it arrogance but I think we are all this way. I needed to hear it from someone “my level”.
So yes I would also tell people that nobody told me to get married.
I was not taught by anybody... I learnt from RUclips and got married soon
I am from India, a country which considers it womanhood as second-order citizens, slaves and facilitators to men's needs and fantasies. It has been so for ages and things are slowly changing, at least in my state, Kerala. With jobs and financial independence, with a place where one can illuminate oneself other than one's own house where the woman has to slave away, she feels energized and alive. Looking from my context, what you have spoken is regressive. Finding balance between job and family should not be a woman's responsibility alone. Men should share the load and the family as a whole should be supportive of the needs of each other. This is a personal choice and I don't think this is a "lie"!
Absolutely. You are right.
Please follow celibacy and remain bachelor in your whole life.
I am also from India, people give seats to ladies in cabs and busses, women are mostly called madam, while guys rarely get called as sir. Some states have free travel in busses for women. Wherever there's a physical fight amongst women. All the men straight up stand away because they are afraid to get mixed in a heated situation, the public will always beat up men but for women it's not the case. Further more we worship many goddesses and associate femininity with wealth, I certainly don't think it's womanhood as "second order citizens", or men think of women as something to facilitate our needs or fantasies. In fact most of them are afraid of women. Yes there are criminals as well but again they are everywhere. Financial independence can be achieved without a career as well. he is not saying women should leave their jobs and become mothers. When we are young we tend to take risks and become career oriented but what he says is that it's not going to be the same as ever. People might want to have a family for a healthy living, women especially should understand this and prepare in advance. So that when the time comes they can easily take a stance if not be both. Like someone can go full focus on a career and earn as much money as possible in their early days such that the return on investment can make them financially independent assuming for the worst case scenario if they choose to be a mother later and lose the husband due to some misfortune. The balance between job and career is important for men as well but the bond Between children and mothers is closer than the father, in case of divorce women tend to get their children to be with them in almost all cases then the father. They are biologically created to nurture children while man is there to provide resources which makes them less available for it.
I don't think it's regressive it's more about telling people in advance what you later will feel in life and take better decisions.
@@prasannathapa1024 Absolutely right
@@prasannathapa1024girl, it's India. Don't act like it's the land of Goddesses. If you have your periods you can't enter the temple.
Then how do you explain all the unhappy women who had children early in life and then want to escape that later in life?
I have not met these women. I think they are outliers, anomalies.
Besides, you don't really make any sense. If you have kids early in life, they won't be around "later" as they will all be raised by age 40-45.
So, Here I am in my mid fifties and i have been a mom for 30 years.
I'm physically worn out with the usual diseases of aging ie...diabetes, glaucoma, neuropathy, ptsd, bipolar.
I started baby sitting at about 13.
I got my first part time job in my mid teens and have worked for pay approximately 35 years
. I also put myself through college.
I did everything that I was told to do to "succeed"
My question? How many years is a woman expected to work outside the home to have any chance at a pension that's above poverty level?
I'm currently in the process of Social Security Disability approval and I'm terrified that even that modest benefit will leave me homeless and eating cat food to survive ,and what if I don't get approved?
I mean being a mom is a job too.
I did something productive in addition to paid work.
I will probably continue on to be a caregiver to my elderly mother and grand children.
This is all work but not recognized as such by the government.
What happens to us when rent and food is more than our pensions?
Exactly, he forgets that women also need money to pay for stuff..
@@paulaaquino he never said women don’t need money to pay for stuff. He was only talking about how career is sold as “fulfillment” which is generally not the case for most people
@@paulaaquino absolutely right
Just to clear something up: this was recorded 2 years ago. Peterson is 57 now, in the video he states he is 55.
Frank T. And he’s been undergoing treatment for his physical dependence and this isn’t his “comeback”
@Frank T. Peterson hasn't made a public appearance in a very long time because of depression, medication, side-effects, botched treatment and now more side-effects. He's recovering, but he's not back.
@killbotone No sugar coating here, addiction is a side effect of drug treatments.
Also he's a drug addict. And Christian fundamentalist.
@killbotone Withdrawal is by definition a side effect of using drugs. As far as your disagrement with the treatment you are welcome to argue that with his physician and him. I gone through a few episode of anxiety and i was prescribed medication every time. So i would very much like to see the study that says anxiety drugs don't work.
I'm a full time mother, graduated but no extra education. My family looked down on me because I was limiting myself, but honestly I love what I'm doing. The two women specifically who judged me ironically both split their time with their kids and working lame jobs that I would never find fulfilling (bookkeeping and managing for old navy). What is so special about those jobs that I'm missing out on? I do teach piano on the side, because I have a knack for it. I didn't immediately love it but now I look forward to creating little musicians to beautify the world.
Ugly radical feminists who can't find a provider traditional guy
Now want to bully happy stay at home moms
Just don't be frnds with such negative people
All unable incel guys in my college bullied me for not being ambitious
My now bf a doctor ( surgeon )
Just doesn't care about me working or staying home
Lame jobs? Really? U know this is opposite of radical feminism which is equally bad
@@safwa8449 you're kind of right. They have every right to find those jobs fulfilling. I personally would hate that lifestyle, but whatever. The point is that they tried to say my choices weren't glamorous enough.. and their jobs aren't too fancy either. I dont feel enticed whatsoever to give up the life I have, to work at old navy. 😂
@@laurajoosse3529 I had the same thing happen to me.
@@laurajoosse3529 I totally get why you got defensive! They should not have judged you. We should embrace our differences and all do what works for us, which is not the same for anyone! The truth is you and the working moms are all doing a great job. Everyone has their own reasons for making the choices in their life. Women need to stop tearing each other down and recognize that both routes have their positives and negatives. Because no circumstance and no person is perfect. We do what we think is best for ourselves and our families. There should be no pressure for a women to work if she doesn’t have to. I used to be so consumed with getting a high paying job only to realize the immense amount of pressure and stress that juggling career and family creates. It’s not for everyone. It’s a beautiful thing to watch your children grow up and have the opportunity to mold them into good humans who will serve God and their community. Working moms probably long for that and maybe feel resentful. Let’s give each other grace no matter what the circumstance we’re in. This life is hard and it is short. That being said, I ask you to consider not fighting fire with fire. Meaning don’t sink to their level and call their jobs meaningless. They’ll only continue to criticize you if you criticize them. Let’s stop the toxic cycle if we have the power to!
I miss your work and energy prof. Peterson. Hope everything is going good in your family and that you'll recover asap.
You are forgetting that women have been told for ages that motherhood is the only reason for a woman's existence. No woman is told that motherhood is bad. It's quite the opposite actually. We are constantly been made to feel guilty for not having children or choosing careers over family. If you'd see the eastern world then you'd know. Women are given hard at the workplace just because she is a woman. Some of us can't bear children or don't want to and some of us do. We just want you to support and appreciate our choices. Tbh so many of us don't even have a choice. So you can keep your advice for women on what to do with their lives to yourself.
I really dont care if men support my choices or not😂 its liberating tbh
At 39 she realized she wanted to be a mother? And someone else is to blame? What has happened? Doesn't anyone want to take responsibility for their actions anymore? Is every woman is meant to be a mother? Why do some push the idea that if a woman isn't, she should feel unfulfilled? Life is so much more complicated than that. Women get to have a life outside what used to be the norm if they want it. It wasn't that long ago that a woman either got married or stayed with their parents because of the limited careers available to them. I'm grateful for the change. I never thought I'd be a mother. But I became one at 33 and again at 39. I continued to work because I had to. I did the best I could to be a good mom and a good employee. I'm sure both suffered a bit but nothing that seems to matter thirty years later. You make your decisions, you take responsibility, and you make the best of the choices you've made. Life is too short for regret.
I don't think Peterson is making the case that things should be regretted, or clocks should be turned back.
He's making the case that young women of today (in fact, it was the same 30 years ago) are sold into the idea that becoming a mother is 'giving up' to an outmoded societal norm, and that the best thing a woman could do would be to be a 'career leader'
@@tonycatman But why are they "sold into the idea"? When a young man starts his career is he being sold into the same idea? Peterson starts his argument taking for granted that women are not eligible to choose for themselves, and that they are sold into something. 19 year old women have the capacity to make choices for themselves as well as 19 men. They are responsible human beings as well. Mr Peterson seems to ignore the fact that women are capable of choice in the first place. Too much empathy. Maybe his love life wasn't the best. He wouldn't be the first.
@@annagoula5605 if a person can believe that women once weren't given the choice to do anything *but* be a wife and mother, surely it follows that young women can be made to believe that they weren't given the choice to be *only* a wife and mother. If men take awhile deciding to become fathers they still have that option. Women don't. And it takes awhile for young people to buck their social narrative, if it takes 10 years for a young woman, that could be too late. So yes, it's very bad that girls are taught that they can take their time to decide, but primarily they should be concerned with careers because it is a lie, they do not have the time to decide, biologically speaking.
@@annagoula5605 Yes, that's correct. Men and women are sold into the same idea.
But men and women are different.
Men can't perform the same astounding miracle that women can. I'm not just talking about the gestation of a child, but the instinct for rearing.
Procreation only needs one man for, perhaps 200 women, so the 199 less genetically fit men need to perform some kind of a proxy service to the offspring.
We build things to serve our offspring and its mother. The average man is stronger than 99% of women - this is how we were selected. More or less every roof, in every culture, everywhere in the world was built by a man.
As for your second argument about agency and capacity. I pretty much agree with this too in principle. If you infantalise a group of people, you invariably do the group a disservice.
But we aren't talking about 18-year-olds.
Imprinting starts at school much earlier than this, and, as Dawkins has pointed out, our default mode is to accept and obey authority
Imprinting continues through peer pressure much later : an anecdote.
I was at lunch with 4 or 5 girls from work, we were about 20. One of the girls said that her ambition was to get married and have a child.
The shock among the group, including me, was palpable. It was as though she had said "I'm planning on giving up on doing anything useful with my life".
I suspect the reaction would be the same today.
@@tonycatman I quite agree with your last statement, but as a fan of Peterson, I wish he'd talk about parenting versus career. It's almost dehumanising men because it asserts that they cannot fell the joy of fatherhood (of the mere raising of a child not the provision aspect that people think is the only applies to men) and are only doomed to a life of performance.
I don't think I've ever met a career driven man, who hasn't reconsidered the balance of his work/ family life by the time he was 30 without presuming he is psycopathic.
I agree, as a guy. As someone who’s never had strong, if any “career” goals, I always knew that being a husband and a dad would be my focus in life.
Thanks for catching the blatant misogyny. Crazy how so many seem to have missed it.
I think the lie is that you must commit to only one path. It's okay to have children late in life, its okay to have a career late in life. If you're worried that you'll be less successful than others in either regard your first step is stop comparing your story to others'. You don't have to be young to be good at something, just be a good person. That's what matters.
Why doesn't he speak about father's paternal fulfillment?
Yes!!!!!
Isn't it obvious?
@@thecallitaspadechannel2794 no it’s not.
They provide for the family
@@azuresky4984 it is
The ethical ramifications of bringing another human into the world far outweigh my desire to have one. I mean there are so many humans to adopt why make one? I’m 23 so my outlook on this might change as I get older but I doubt it 🤷♀️
It will change.
Mine hasn’t. 33 here and I have the same out look as you since I was your age. Have I considered a family? Yes. But I quickly rethought it after the current circumstances of the world and the fact the world is only getting more overpopulated. That’s not the kind of world I’d want to bring someone into. I hate it when people tell you what you will be like. Makes me stay staunch on my ideas more. So annoying.
The main thing is that society should not belittle you if you decide to change your mind. It’s sad to see women pitying other women who have essentially made a different choice to them.
@@zakirchoudhury9206 everyone’s journey in life is different. How are we to compare and judge?
@@carllosangeles9586 This remark is why I'm confused of the supposed "societal pressure to forgo motherhood and only focus on career". If someone MIGHT not 100% definitely have children, the response is immediately dismissive and insistent on the inevitability of having children. We are treated like children that don't really know what we want and that some guy knows better for us, even when we admit we're still open to having kids.
It's like the war on Christmas. Christmas is still a thing, no one's burning your Christmas tree down and kids are still being born, there's no mass female sterilization phenomenon happening.
There is an important situation here: one may want to have kids, but if there's no steady money stream, that's difficult. As well, finding the right partner, one that really wants to raise kids with you, instead of you raising their kids alone, is more difficult than expected. I've seen too many single moms struggle (and sometimes they have their partners right there) to actually want to become one of them.
Yes, being married and having children is the easiest for the parents and children.
My aunt never has kids and was very career oriented. Never had a long term relationship either. Always wondered if she ever felt unfulfilled, but I think she still found a great workaround for it. My mother was single from when I was 5 and my sister was 2 onwards, so she was a really busy woman. My aunt really took care of my sister and I, spent a lot of time with us. Even now 2 decades later we are still really close with her and are the closest family she has. I'll always be grateful for what she did when we were young but I think she'll always be grateful for having someone to care for, I think it meant a lot to her. So JBP is right in that men and women are often better off with children, but I think there are always unique ways to find a fulfilling connection
I agree, humans want and need connection. That connection can be having own kids, or caring for nieces and nephews. Everyone needs to decide that for themselves in an honest introspection and reflection.
I think that’s what this video is missing. He talks about the 4 points (1) career/education, (2) friends, (3) family:parents/siblings/KIDS, (4) relationship.
Some women don’t even get (1). So he’s fine with ignoring this pillar of fulfillment? (3) is family. Any family. But his argument is about motherhood. Why do we need to isolate and declare these kids are MINE and not recognize other close kids from siblings or cousins? And he ignores how having kids can affect (4) relationship.
You are so right. I am one of those aunts who never had her own children nor wanted to but I feel SO blessed to be an important aunt to my two nephews. When my sister thanks me for the 1,000th time for the things I do I thank her right back and mean it with all my heart. Despite my contributions, I feel like I've cheated somehow because I got to experience a sort of motherhood as a backup mom without the full-time commitment or money worries and I know it has made a tremendous difference in hers and their lives as well as mine. Symbiotic. I think that young mothers--especially single mothers-- need to think twice about moving far from family or think about moving back home if they need help--even if when family can be judgemental and condescending at times. Just having grandparents around can make a world of difference.
I'm the aunt to 6 nieces and 6 nephews. I was never at a loss for long for a diaper to change or a warm hello hug from a family child. I got that all out of my system before I turned 18.
Thank you for sharing your story :)
I love my career, my freedom and my independence. I work when I want, take holidays when I want, sleep when I want, see my folks when I want. I’m free.
Singleness = loneliness, depression, porn addiction, drug addiction, masturbation addiction, suicide, self-harm...etc
@@elo2626x I’m not single. I’m a 31 yo woman in a 6 year relationship to give my previous post some context. I see the struggles of others, people who have a kid or kids they didn’t really plan for or think about too deeply, expecting it to just ‘work out’ even though this is just a gamble at best. Said couples usually split up, leaving the mother single and often times forced to raise raise said kids either alone or with difficulty.
That’s not for me.
Ok, but to be fair, we can’t honestly say that children would’ve made her happy either. The reason nobody encouraged her to embrace a family is because raising children can be really, really hard. I have 3 kids and I love them. I celebrate when other women are having children but I can’t say that I would encourage anyone to do it especially if they’re expecting children to make them happy because that plays out real fast.
true story and very brave of you to say this... children will not make you happy but just for a short period when they are young... BUT it gives fullfilment to your live as you grow old... you know that you gave life to someone who is now doing stuff that you are proud of (if htings go well)... no f you kid becomes a failure then thats a pain you cannot recover from...
I have no interest in having kids or having a “career.” I have an interest in flexibility, living my passion (music, the arts), nurturing my relationship(s), travel, and whatever else makes me happy. Yes, I chase happiness. The folks saying you “shouldn’t chase happiness” are either miserable themselves and want you to be miserable or equate happiness in with instant gratification, and those are not synonymous.
Let me guess, you are in your early or mid twenties.
@@fabriceizzo2922 She's 46
That's fine but how do you pay for it??🤔
@@chlorine5795 she’s aged but hasn’t grown
@@CLmssanBy What metric are measuring "grown" or "maturity"...Maybe she is the mature one that she doesn't need to be emotionally dependent on anyone and people who think otherwise are not. Or may be not. Do you ever question yourself? Or do you feel whatever you think is true ? And you got the secret to a "good" life ?
I am 39 and married, but motherhood is not what I want, and sometimes I ask myself if there is something wrong with me. But my feelings about having kids haven't changed till now, I just do not have that need. Well 🤷♀️
There is NOTHING wrong with you!
I feel ya. I’d like to get married, but I don’t want kids. It’s hard to meet a single guy who isn’t already a dad ( not for me) or isn’t looking to have kids. Oh well.
Society expects all women to have the same desires and goals...it's insane!!! While men can choose different goals and it's okay... i am glad this BS is changing.
No everyone (male or female) wants kids, let alone loves them. In the past, there was no way around it since contraception wasn't an option. Out of sheer biology you one day most likely had them, whether you wanted them or not. Elizabeth Badinter, a french scientist, showed that "motherly love" wasn't even discussed before the late 1700s, early 1800s and children were often put into the care of others, even if there wasn't a (financial, societal) necessitiy. So not wanting/loving children was ALWAYS a "thing". in the past people simply couldn't avoid it. Today they can.
Let the man have his opinion. He is entitled to one. But don't confuse his opinion with science.
There is nothing wrong with you. We are not robots to have same programming in us. But what Dr. Peterson is saying is just a general statement about women as a whole.
Most men don't want to get married, so it goes both ways.
I'm 58, childfree not childless and I have loved being able to travel my entire life.
Women are much more than a uterus.
your the exception, not the rule. Most women after age 30 prioritize family. And why does motherhood = being just a uterus to you? This personifies the very problem he is talking about, modern society has devalued motherhood.
@@RGM5396 motherhood is a choice I don’t find it that great
@@RGM5396 or maybe because society and/or family still expect women to put everything else aside just to breed ....so too many women still procreate just to be "accepted" ? As for motherhood being "devalued", you do realize that females have been responsible for birthing humans since the human race began? It's not some magical, special, unique event. It's the result of unprotected sex. Nothing more, nothing less.
I have exactly zero female friends who have had children. It's not as unusual as you think. The childfree don't feel the need to go around waving our flags like the women who have children do.
Maybe it's because we are more secure in our lifestyle choice since it didn't involve caving to someone else's expectations of how to live our lives?
What seems to be "devalued" is women making their own choices about their lifestyles.
Hello Water, how are you doing?
Without delving deep into the potentially more controversial aspects of motherhood which Dr Peterson speaks about here, his point at the end about career being the primary purpose of life being a lie is actually something I think is really important to acknowledge, because I think in today's work it's pushed far too much and I find (and experience myself), other equally fundamental aspects of life aren't given the importance they deserve. Dr Peterson has also had a huge impact in my life in general, I really like his book and his talks about being a person of character and taking responsibility for my life is something I wish more people would pay attention to.
Everyone kind of says career is not that important. (Even though they might not act like it). And character development is extremely important, the old "know thyself". But do you agree that he should be saying this about motherhood? I'd say that's counter to taking responsibility. That's just becoming SOMETHING because others are saying I should. Whether that SOMETHING is a career or child, what's the difference?
Out of all the "controversial" things he says this is the only one I don't understand. In other videos, he uses himself and his love of children as an example.
@@mymarginalia8349 I dont agree with that acknowledging your biology isn't saying you have to become mothers. It's about living with your choices. We are telling young women can be everything and motherhood tends to be looked down upon as internalised patriarchy. The truth is if you are fulfilled by you career or anything else for that matter great but understand your limitations i.e. most women who don't have a child will have to adopt when they past their forties if they want one. If a video on youtube convince anyone that the only way forward is parenthood then they need to grow up.
@@regislafrance3667 But they'll need to grow up even if they need to be told they will have to live with their choices! They'll need to grow up even if they need to be told by a video on youtube that they will have to adopt after a point.
That's the whole issue. If he's not saying "the only way forward is parenthood", then what is he saying. That at forty you can't be a mother? You don't need to say that, we know, that you need to pick motherhood early if you want it, we know that. In a realm of youtube videos, if anyone needs to be told any of this, needs to grow up indeed.
@@mymarginalia8349 You have it completly backward. He is a psochologist who has treated many many high level career women who were seeking psycological help because they were realising that if they want a child now it can't be the natural way. Not judging why this is happening but it also happen to coincide with the time women are becoming infertile. Now as you said she can still be a parent so maybe this is not rationnal or maybe now she needs to go through a hellish adoption system which may be no comfort at all. But i think most women understand the concept of adoption fine so the best we can say if you believe people who tell you should live one way or not another you should also consider what you want and try and do so before it gets too complicated to change?
@@regislafrance3667 What do I have backward?
"But i think most women understand the concept of adoption fine so the best we can say if you believe people who tell you should live one way or not another you should also consider what you want and try and do so before it gets too complicated to change?" I agree with that, But that's not what Peterson is saying.
Also I think that society puts the entire responsibility of parenthood on mothers, and almost entirely relives fathers from being a good parent, and spending time with children.
My Dad was never available in my childhood, he was too busy working, I barely saw him and he never took time off his work to spend anytime with us, we never went on trips, vacations, parties etc, and we barely talked, I learnt almost every thing after the age of 10 via the internet.
So what I am saying is that having kids is a responsibilty, and both fathers and mothers have to put some time off work to be with children and not only mothers alone. Maybe it can be that the mother works during the day and the father works during the afternoon and evening.
And also not everyone needs to be a parent. As it is we are overpopulated, so plz dont say we will go extinct if some ppl choose not to have kids.
Modern feminism has practically all of society believing men and women should be the same. Not talking about equal but THE SAME to be clear. Most men aren't nurturers and thrive when providing. Force a man to be a mom and you no longer have a man.
I actually think we agree. Yeah they parent but in their own way. It's Different from the nurturing a mother provides. It's not neglect. The fathers role is equally as important and they should be present.
Not familiar with the concept that your father was most likely killing himself at work to provide for you and the family, huh?
We are NOT overpopulated! Population is actually shrinking, especially is developed countries. America is only growing In population due to immigration not procreation! This is a huge problem in countries like Germany 🇩🇪
yes. and, where are the grandparents? until recently, they used to be nearby and taking care of kids also.Teaching things to them.
Never ever leave your career for children, it's important to be there for them, but more importantly be independent financially. If you are not that what guidance are you going to give your child, I mean no Mom is going to tell their child, study now get a job for yourself and then leave it like Me.
How many women (goes for men also) actually have a career type of work, Aswini? Most cases we're talking about a job. A job, not a career. Boring, low to mid level paid stuff that you can't grow in position - that's a job.
You CAN have kids and family life and have a job. Everybody does it. But you can't have a "career" and have kids. It's too much strain both ways.
If you are a woman and you have bright career - ok maybe it's worth it to follow that path to see where it goes. These are raree exceptions, 98% of the working women just do some 9 to 5 light job or even part time. And I don't think you're talking about these. :)
@Surbhi Yadav good for you, but you're the rare exception. if everybody, or even a majority were like you, you wouldn't be born, i wouldn't be born and the us as human species would just perish. :)
some ppl don't wanna have families, they only care for themselves and nobody else. we're lucky that the percentage of these ppl is so low.
beause if a lot more people only live for themselves, many businesses (including essential services) will start to have a real big shortages of workers. why? these people work the hours that they work and the type of job that they work because they have families to feed. if they only work for themselves they will work part-time and most likely will pick something that they enjoy. it's not gonna took a lot of time before we end up as a 3rd world country where no essential service is reliable or even exist, and after that we're gonna slowly age, as no new people are born and nobody can care for the elderly. the end will be a miserable one :)
Let's not forget that he is a therapist and the women he encounters are the women who aren't happy with their lives.
What’s your point?.
True. But he does not seem to have a lot of patients who complain about choosing to have a family.
@@ackwebde maybe those people have fulfilling lives and don’t have much to complain about. I haven’t met one person who regret having kids.
@@acz88 There are thousands. They won't complain to you a total stranger but every now and then many parents regret having kids because they didn't envisage the physical, mental, financial, and emotional cost it takes to raise kids.
@@Meowthatsright Absence of evidence is not equal to evidence of absence. His sample size are people that are unhappy. Happy people do not visit him - may they have a family or not.
Of those unhappy people, a large proportion seem to be unhappy because of the lack of children. That is all that he said.
Also the people who see him are usually financially very potent, as his time is expensive.
What can we conclude: Financially well off people should consider not placing further career advancements over having children, this seems to be a frequent topic among the unhappy percentage.
Financially not well off people should consider not having more children than they can support, as having children is quite demanding.
I stayed home. Worked out of house as a consultant, and the wife went to work. Raised two kids. Just gotta be flexible.
Oh wait, not everybody can do that
Enjoy being a mechanic and taxi driver and having no money or capability for investment in new degrees
@@inajosmood yea I worked 20 years as an engineer/scientist first. Had the kids late.
@@jbw6823 you must trust her with your life to do so, I wouldn't like to depend on a women for survival, most of them move by instincts and passion, so most of their actions are merely whims which can change at any moment. I guess your wife is different, good for you
@@prblmchild83 What part of "I worked out of house as a consultant" did you not understand? How does he depend on her for survival?
@@procerusgigas i assumed a consultant couldn't have a steady income, therefore the wife had to take the role of provider by working a stable job.
I completed a law degree then trained as a chartered accountant with a top four accountancy firm in my 20s. Advised many Ftse companies. I always wanted children and a family and had my son at 33. I love being a mum. I genuinely feel so happy and satisfied being a mum!
It’s not that you are happy. It’s that you weren’t discouraged from having those thoughts when you were young. Girls today are going to be having a tough time in their 30s
@@zakirchoudhury9206 so you know better than her how she is feeling? Interesting!
@@prab1349 You should stop projecting your past trauma into your current life. It's affecting your happiness and contentment. you went out of your way to misinterpret my comment.
my comment clearly stated that her decision isn't important, what is important is that she was not pressured into making that decision, all options were presented as equally acceptable to her.
These days, people making the decision to align with what might be traditional gender roles are judged passive aggressively.
@@zakirchoudhury9206 What are you talking about who is projecting trauma?! The lady was saying that she was happy with her current life, and you said to her it's not happiness etc etc as you know better her feelings than her just from a youtube comment thats why I said interesting because therapist spend years with their clients just to know what they are feeling. And you booom got it from a youtube comment and now you are talking about my traumas 😂😂😂
@@prab1349 I did not discuss her in the slightest. i just said that it is good that she was in a space that she could make such a choice without judgement. my comment had nothing to do with her decision and everything to do with her right to make a decision without any outside pressure.
You are just trying to find a way to label me as some kind of sexist idiot. what exactly is making you go so far out of your way to misinterpret what I am saying to fit me into this judgemental box?
if you say it's not some past trauma, fine. but what is making you do this, why do you have a chip on your shoulder?
It's not about only motherhood. It should be "PARENTHOOD" cause it's important for both men and women to have kids at certain stage and don't push the entire parenthood on women.They both have equal responsibilities on their children
Please admit it.
Just because a woman has a career, doesn't mean she cannot be a mom. And just because a woman is a mother, doesn't mean she can't have her own career. Personally for me, it's always better to not be financially dependent on anyone. Imagine leaving your job and everything behind to get married and be a stay home mom, only to have your husband die or cheat on you. That's messed up. No matter what, be financially independent.
Women that aren’t raised and trained to be wives/moms cant just flip on the switch. That’s the whole point of this god forsaken discussion. Smdh…
@jamelcarpenter327 yeah now try imagining it with men, not only women. Listen, you can always drop your career and go live with chimpanzees. Nobody's stopping you. Of course you don't want to do that, you only want women to drop their careers. You know too damn well we don't live in stone age. We live in information era and career is the hunting, its our way of survival
@snotrohmitabc123 I don't think becoming a stay at home mom is lazy (being a full time mom is HARD AF). But I do think it's the stupidest financial decision a person could make.
If your husband divorced you after your kids turned 18, who's at disadvantage here? Only YOU. Your husband will be enjoying his rich, decades long career while you'll be out there surviving off of minimum wage jobs at 50yo cos your were out of the workforce for decades.
No matter how much you trust your husband, no matter how much you think this won't happen to you, divorce and death is never out of the question, it's always a possibility. But whatever floats ur boat 🤷♀️
@Jwebb-zh9gj that's true. We can't switch the flip, we won't switch the flip, Cope realllly Hard!
It was the reverse situation for me. I was raised in a religious community and taught that having kids is my life purpose and I missed the boat on education and career. The struggle is finding something fulfilling, and there's a lot of bad information out there. Employers give you a false sense of career opportunity and educational institutions are expensive and there is a shortage of high-quality educators. I did a semester at UMKC Bloch school, they were promoting that they were ranked the #1 business school in the country, which is nothing short of laughable. 10k towards a boot camp at UT, actually had a wonderful instructor, and he was fired halfway through the course over political nonsense.
Sorry to hear it was hard the other way around too. Thanks for sharing to bring more to the picture.
Do u have a family
I interviewed dozens of "ideal" mothers before I got married. The majority said that they wished they never had children but couldn't say so publicly lest their children find out. I have never wanted children, but I've been told my whole life that I'm defective for feeling that way. At thirty, successful in my career, content, and blissfully married, I have many close female friends. Only one of them is pregnant (and happily so). No one else currently desires motherhood. None of us are defective.
Definitely
Don't have kids if u don't want
Also u can adopt at 45 if u want no biological clock there
@sasha I think in india many women don't even want to get married or probably adopt kids
They still get married and have biological kids
@sasha many women regret not having kids or regret not getting married
Many want to get divorced too
In india traditional non sense is something we gotta put up with
@sasha men also suffer from pressure of having kids after getting married
Men also have struggles n pressure
India puts pressure on evryone equally
I totally don’t believe you.
Coming from a mother who left her career in medicine this was very true for me. At 19 I was only career driven and by my second child i was nearing my 30s. I could not bear the priority my career placed over my family. Being told I will have to leave my infant at 4-6 weeks and jump back into the hurricane of training, I could not see anyway in which giving up this critical period of my children’s lives would be worth it in the end. There was no room for any other priority in my medical training. Time is money become very true for me and I picked time. I understand there are different view points and mine is on the rare side. But I also think not if people are truly honest with themselves.
Thank you for your story ♥️♥️♥️
This hurts to read because I want to be a mother and a doctor💔 I know that I want a husband that’s going to parent as much as me but even if that I want to spend enough time with my future children:(
@@user-qv7cr1sn8w hi! Wow I forgot about this comment. I would like to tell you that you very much can be a mother and a doctor. I do not want to discourage you in that. I had my first child before medical school and my second during. I could have complete but I would have given up more time than I was willing during what I consider to be crucial years for a mother to bond with her child. I could have waited like many other women until after my training was complete. But this is all just my opinion and my course of events. Many mothers are doctors before, during, and or after medical school. But before entering training or having children make sure you analyze yourself deeply as to what kind of mother you want to be and will your career course allow that or when will it allow that and can you wait. There are many things to think over. I wish you the absolute best! And I hope whatever choices you make bring you peace and joy! At the end of the day it is just a job and I hope not anybody’s everything. I do not regret my decision and know many mothers who carried on training also do not.
Thank you please tell your story to young women. Pretty much all the girls I meet, including my very recent ex, just do not understand the vision. And I don’t get why working is so important to them. They don’t understand that the only reason I’m working in the first place is to impress the girl. So why are they competing against me in gaining resources?? The whole thing is backwards! It’s making it impossible to date and frankly if we’re not dating and reproducing that’s it… like that’s it for everyone everywhere…..
So why are men forced to leaver their father hood and become working man.. men can leave their jobs and look after their children na
Oh my, I remember when I was younger, none talked to me about having a family, having kids, expect one person: a boy in my class who were very philisophical at that time (who I ended up in a relationship with
As a Father there is nothing more fulfilling than being a parent for myself. All the best
Totally agreed. The choice is up to the individual, but at least, every woman should be enabled to see the joy from both sides (being a full-time mother + wife and being a woman/mother with career). Thankfully, I think women have seen and heard a lot about this as historically, that is what most women are told about. About how they are going to have babies and raise children.
Next, as how Peterson always loves to talk about, we need more stories and encouragement for every man to to start a healthy relationship, healthy marriage, to enable men to care for their children, to make time for their children, to encourage their children to think about having healthy family of their own in the future.
It’ll be okay. It does hurt but it’s very exciting. You’ll forget about it quickly. Just breathe, relax and let it hurt. It’s just how life is.
Do you have the link or remember the name of that video from the woman talking about the pain of birth? I’m totally terrified too and would love to see it!
Birthing a child is more intense than any extreme physical sport!-and the prize is AWESOME.
Career vs Fatherhood never pops up as discussion topic. Interesting.
@Zen Diab why not?
@Zen Diab Always the same answer. Interesting.
Exactly! It's interesting how women are preassured to choose between the two, while this is not a loud discussion when it comes to men. Clearly, the setup here is that if a woman has a man that shares these things she also has more chances to solve both, if that is what they want to.
JP brings a minimizing view of how this is basically "the only thing" women want.
A father doesnt have to sit at home for 9 months
Men and women are different
Men cant breast feed their children
Most importantly who told you that its a must mother should sacrifice their job?
One of the parent should
In general its easier and more benefitial for a child when a mother does that
But its not necessary for sure.
@@shivamsrivastava664 The woman doesn't actually have to sit at home during all the time when she is breast feeding. And it doesn't have to be 9 months either. The base for maternal leave in US is 12 weeks, a bit less than 3 months, and usually started before the baby is born.
I'm 56yrs spent the last 16 yrs being a mom at home, gave up my career for my husband and kids. Now I'm left with nothing. My ex husband left me for a much younger woman. My kids have grown up and I'm a grandmother. Where does that leave me. Wish I had stuck to making a career for myself. I always wondered how far I would have gone. I can never get those career days back. I love my kids, but being a woman is not only about kids, it's about how you can be an awesome mom, housewive, and have a great career. A lot of women are doing this and I think it's great. Do it all you can do it.
Alimony exists
Hello Kim, how are you doing?
I’m very sorry Kim but believe me you’re the best and continue loving your kids, he doesn’t know what he deserves more, you’re beautiful
This happens to everyone in life at some point. One day, you become irrelevant to even yourself. It’s an unfortunate fact of life.
you are at an advantage and do not know it. your child and grandchildren will be there for you when you get older. that is beyond value. bu t make sure you don't distance yourself from t hem. Also. our system has given women the shaft again, by not allowing fair division of assets in a divorce. for the women who stayed home to raise kids, they aren't supported in divorce as well a s they used to be. If anything, you shoul d have had more kids! as they are you r treasure that will grow and the more the merrier. for older age. Maybe revisit your divorce with a better attorney too. Get alimony. or more of it. Get a good old fashioned judge.
The problem is in the dichotomy of "career VERSUS motherhood." Do most men struggle with "career VERSUS fatherhood?" Of course not.
The lie of the career being the main life's fulfillment is neither a male nor female issue - it's a societal one. I know plenty of men who, in their 30s and 40s, find themselves suffering from that very angst. The main difference with women, is that they need to figure it out a little sooner, since their biological clocks run out a lot sooner. A man can figure out he's unhappy with his career, say, in his 40s, and still very easily pursue fatherhood at that juncture. Not so, women.
Children born to old parents have birth defects
My dad was 42 when I was born
I am autistic
😠😠😠😠😠I hate capitalism
Well in all fairness I’m not sure how I feel about another man discussing women’s life.
I once read a post by female and it went something like “I’d be more interested in being a parent if I could be a father”...
Women are not poor brainwashed creatures and I think most of us know exactly what we’re doing.
🙏
In my daily adventures with my 3 children ages 4 and under. The majority of negative remarks I receive are from young women. They say things like
“Close your legs.”
“Why do you have so many.”
“When are you getting a job.”
I’ve had young men approach me and ask how they can convince their wife to have children.
Young women today seem to be brainwashed in school. That home making is lowly, having a family, getting married is oppressive. I literally can go to a museum in the middle of the week.
More power to you! Kids are a huge blessing!
@Dark Abyss absolutely agree on that. Welfare is bad.
How rude. I would be full of admiration for you! I don't have kids, would probably have been perfectly terrible at it, so I'm even more grateful to women who have had them. There's no reason to be censorious. Or say oh, women with no children lead empty lives. Can't we all simply have different choices and, with luck, choose wisely what's best for us?
this is SO annoying. You're obviously very privileged to not have to work, and not be on welfare. Most women cant have that, most women have to work to provide for their families. Nobody has ever said motherhood is lowly that's bullshit.
Where does this happen? I can only picture it if the kids are running around with tangled hair and wearing pjs with last nights dinner in public. Not saying this is the case, but that’s the only scenario I can imagine even thinking these things! Remotely put together kids make me think “dang, that’s so much work” and great polite kids make me think “dang, that’s SO much work. Props to the parents.”
What's wrong with not having children if you don"t want any?
He didn't talk about whether women feel, more or less rightfully so, that they have to choose between motherhood and having a career. He just said that women who don't choose to become mothers are either mentally ill or end up regretting their choice. It would seem he doesn't look at motherhood as a choice and hence thinks society should make said option more attractive to women by reducing the cost choosing it entails. And yet, birth rates are plummeting in all developed countries. Strange. Women must have gone all mad.
I don't think "women are being lied to". Women don't need to be encouraged to be mothers bcz the biological clock ticks louder than any external noise. We forget that everyone isn't born rich or into financial stability that is likely to provide them with greater options, many have to struggle like mad to have a stable life. Young middle class couples don't have an option bcz everything is getting more and more expensive. Also as an individual I would like to use my talents as well. So yes motherhood and career are a point of conflict but what of those who absolutely love what they do? Leaving that can crush them.
My daughter in law felt tremendous social pressure to return to work after her first child. Even though they didn’t need the income, she felt guilty about not “being enough” to work and raise their baby. 6 years later she’s the one with the memories or her two children’s first steps, words and endless hours of family time. Neither she nor my son would have changed a thing.
Just because you’re predisposed with the ability to bear a child (aka a female) it doesn’t mean you have to. Having kids is a privilege and thankful we’ve worked our way up in society to allow women to be whoever they want to be and not just mothers and “kid-havers” from like the beginning of time until recently.
thank you for this!
I am so happy I never had kids when I see my friends struggling with kids with autism, hyperactivity, defiance, chronic illnesses etc. Happy to go home to peace and quiet. Nothing lasts forever but peace is fundamental.
You would not exist if your parents had this attitude so at least be grateful they didn’t think like you
I have a child and I have peace.
I think one day you’ll think differently. Selfishness is never ultimately fulfilling.
@@AlanaL3 are u kidding? Children didnt chose to be on this earth and maybe never wanted to. Why call someone “selfish” because they’re responsible enough to clear their mind up and be responsible. Do u rather see kids in the streets because their parents cant bear of raising them up? At least dont judge...
@@AlanaL3
How is she selfish for not wanting children?
Only flaw in what he is saying is a single man in is 40s who is highly successful in career may also feel the same way. I left to the US for higher studies on scholarship at 29 and got placed in well-paying job post-graduationon at 31. I spent my money on gadgets, food, movies, got a new car, traveled to a few places and sent home gifts. But the excitement of " I made it" only lasted for a year or so. At personal front I felt stuck and dating was so not easy. I remember feeling empty admist all the aderaline rush. I am currently dating a Indian girl so things are better but If someone like me stayed single till 40 and never had a family, I could see them going into depression for sure.
Many in quest of success focus too much on career and miss out to develop social skills to date or to show/manage emotions. Both men and women are victims of it.
What flaw? Men weren't the focus of the video
Satish Kumar , Yes I agree. I do lots of vision boards and the like with my boys and discuss goals with them. Because I grew up in family without growth mindset. It would be nice if my boys use time wisely they can have spiritual fulfillment, career and family. I’d hate to see my kids struggling at dead end jobs or not having family
We need balance to be truly happy
What are you talking about. There are women 25-35 any highly successful man can attract and marry and have babies with. Maybe he needs to learn how to flirt an relate to and understand women better due to lack of experience, but that problem is very easy to solve. Books and videos and classes abound. Perhaps you need to work on yourself a little more.
Not a flaw just not what he was talking about.
How would Jordan Peterso respond to the ideology that other people cannot be a source of your happiness? How would a young woman who understands that only she can create meaning and happiness in her life go out looking for a romantic relationship just so she's not miserable? It's quite possible to have a successful career since it's clearly defined what it takes, but when it comes to romantic relationships you are dealing with a human being who may not care about all the things you are doing right for them and may treat you in a manner that's undeserving. So, perhaps that's one of the reasons why many people pursue careers instead of relationships. I am looking forward to the answer, especially from Jordan Peterson himself.
Well, not Jordon Peterson here, but I am an old timey philosopher/feminist. First thing to note, it is rarely just 'women' who chose to have kids. This is an obvious fallacy, stemming from the way we measure fertility rates, e.g. we measure them via women, rather than men, cause its easier to track.
Chasing happiness and other people. Are there many instances wherein happiness doesn't entail other people? Romantic, friendship, work, etc... it's difficult to find examples wherein an individual's happiness is actually a derivative of themselves alone. In a practical sense, that is, that kind of ideology is mostly meaningless.
There is something, perhaps, to the ideology regarding one's 'inner life', how they think of themselves, how they understand themselves, and so forth.
in terms of meaningful relationships, to quote you:
"...but when it comes to romantic relationships you are dealing with a human being who may not care about all the things you are doing right for them and may treat you in a manner that's undeserving."
I'd suggest strongly that that kind of outcome stems exactly from the ideology in question. If each person literally thinks of their happiness as not stemming from other people, that it is 'morally wrong' or 'factually wrong' that their happiness may stem from something other then their 'self', they will create relational situations in which their happiness exactly cannot stem from the other person. They themselves in other words implicitly or explicitly hold the attitude and disposition in the quoted text.
That kind of person looks upon their partner, lover, or friend, as something they 'ought not care about' for, after all, they 'ought not depend on that person'. Hence nothing you do for them 'matters', after all, 'you ought be doing it for yourself' anyway, according to this ideology at any rate. If both people share that disposition, neither treats the other with any respect, beyond, at best, a kind of distant indifference. 'You do you' and 'I'll do me' and neither of us really give a shit either way.
@@eliashe1797
Thanks for responding to my comment. I'm not a student of philosophy but I wish were.
I like to learn and expand my thinking capacity; hence, I get elated when I meet one who challenges my postulations.
I would like to point out that your comprehension of the ideas that I laid out in my comment is quite different from what I meant to communicate.
You asked: "are there instances where happiness doesn't entail other people?", and to that I would yes. I have heard of monks who spend lots of time alone in the mountains, just meditating, and contemplating on the issues of life. Even so, I know people who solely get their fulfilment and happiness from their jobs and their leisure activities rather than other people. And there's others who only care about the accumulation of knowledge and not human affairs. Now, ofcourse these people are usually wise enough to know that even though they may not desire to hang around people very much, it still is important to make some useful contributions to society, for instance by building good schools or writing good books or doing many other things that may benefit the human race.
I also know people, and that includes me by the way, who belief that nobody owes them anything; especially that it is not their birth right for anyone to desire to be in a relationship with them. Nevertheless, they, who have adopted this belief, do not necessarily think that relationships are meaningless or that there isn't a need to treat anyone with respect and love, or vice versa. No. This ideology only attempts to remove the basis for entitlement, and formulate a foundation for self reliance. The idea is that relationships, and money and respect, etc are good, but we ought to earn them, and while it may be impossible to survive without basic needs like food and shelter, it is entirely possible to live happily without a non-basic need like relationships.
The appropriate approach in my view, is that it's okay to appreciate good human relationships when they come, and to treat members of our communities with love, respct, and dignity, yet we ought to recognise that we can do just all right, by ourselves, even if the whole world were against us. At the end of the day, the best relationship we can have is with ourselves.
To round up, in my experience, people who think they need others, more specifically a romantic partner to be happy, they are usually clingy and needy, sucking life out of their partners with their constant desire for attention and reassurence. And they get overly bitter when they are not in romantic relationship.
@@mbitukoruamurumbua3107 you're welcome.
I think that to respond to you properly, I would want a better sense of what you mean by " I also know people, and that includes me by the way, who belief that nobody owes them anything; especially that it is not their birth right for anyone to desire to be in a relationship with them.”
Specifically, 'birthright for anyone to desire to be in a relationship with them'. I may be getting hung up on the term 'birthright' specifically, as there are not many sense that I am aware of in which anyone literally by birthright owes anyone else the desire to be in a relationship with them.
I assume you don't mean that literally, but then that leaves me kinda wondering exactly what you mean by it. Maybe if you explain that aspect a bit more, I can get a better sense of what you mean, and can maybe respond better to you.
@@eliashe1797 Hi. It's quite a straightforward term. Just respond however way you understand it.
@@mbitukoruamurumbua3107 Well, I’ll go with the notion that folks have a moral or natural right for the phrase ‘birthright’.
I wonder if there is but a semantic difference in play. You say that no one ‘owes’ anyone anything else, and yet, when I consider relationships as such, and if we ‘owe’ something to them, generally speaking I would use ‘respect and love’ as exactly that which we ‘owe’ them. In other words, to hold that we ‘ought’ to do something, your claim as I read it, is mostly the same as saying that we ‘owe’ to do something.
Perhaps the notion, as you allude to, is that folks who act based upon the notion that their happiness is gained through another simply creates worse relationships, less happiness, etc… than those who act based upon the notion that their happiness is gained through themselves as such?
So, not that we do not ‘owe’ others ‘love and respect’, but rather that in the pragmatics of how folks create their relationships of ‘love and respect’ we are better served by acting as if they didn’t ‘owe’ them, and nonetheless ‘give it’.
Such is a very different sort of claim though. We may very well hold that there is a ‘natural or moral right’ to expect others to ‘love and respect’ each other in romantic loving relationships, and indeed more broadly in our relationships in general, and still hold that an individual’s and by extension everyone’s happiness is better served by not ‘depending’ on others to achieve it.
I’d say that this kind of claim is hardly controversial. Even in the most hyper conservative heteronormative views of such things, wherein, say ‘a woman’s happiness is dependent upon their being a mother, wife, etc…’ and ‘a man’s happiness is dependent upon being a father, husband, etc…’ they still tend to hold that happiness is not exclusively so defined.
Afghanistan for instance, traditionally holds that kind of view, and the men and women therein form their own broad social circles wherein there are many aspects of their lives that are not dependent upon their being a mother, father, husband or wife. We may hold that such is not desirable for various reasons, for instance, too rigidly defined gendered and heteronormative roles, but it doesn’t really deny anything this kind of claim is suggesting. In pragmatics, it likely just holds that family and procreation as such is very important and fulfilling, and other kinds of fulfillment in life are secondary.
Which isn’t a particularly crazy view let’s say. No kids, no family, very likely no life, no community, no culture, etc… all those other kinds of goods and fulfillment stem from and are dependent upon the goods and fulfillments of family and procreation in other words.
If the claim is that people can find happiness as individual’s, such is also hardly controversial. Basically every society and culture to date has had some place therein for such folks. There just isn’t very many of such people. Few are the hermits after all:)
If the claim is that ‘people ought not find fulfillment in their lives through others’ that they ‘ought to find fulfillment in their lives through their self per se’ there may be some controversialness therein. Most notably, the claim suggests that there is a ‘bad’ involved in finding fulfillment in life through others as such.
Perhaps, as you say, the ‘bad’ there being that because someone depends on another for something, say, their food, they become ‘clingy, needy, etc…’ out of fear that that upon which they survive, live, and in sum have their happiness and fulfillment may be taken away with that person. Broadly if a person depends on the love of another for their happiness and fulfillment, then their ‘life’ is threatened if that love is taken away.
I think what strikes me as odd bout the position, is that people generally want love, and love as such is inherently dependent upon another.
It's one thing to hold, for instance, that being dependent upon another for food, either via the means to procure it, or the skills to prepare it (to put it within the frame of traditional gendered roles), is a ‘bad’, after all there is no obvious reason why anyone can’t earn procure or cook the food. It is another to say that depending on someone for love as such is a fundamental problem, because it doesn’t exist without dependence upon another.
‘Clinginess, neediness, etc…’ in some meaningful sense is a byproduct of loving another at all, regardless of whether their happiness is centrally located with their self per se or not. It's perhaps like wondering why an animal growls when you try to take their food away:) Less flippantly, why someone would be hurt by the loss of a lover, a friend, a family member, etc…
There’s a fair amount of lore bout this within especially the polyam communities. The pragmatics and limits of loving one’s self, loving multiple people, dealing with the emotions involved, facing fears of rejection, jealousy, responsibilities towards especially one’s long term lovers, etc…
You have any experience regarding that community or modality of love?
Fwiw, the issues get more complex when we’re talking bout long term lover relations, and when kids are involved. There is, in other words, a sense in which what you are alluding to is mostly applicable to folks who merely wanna date, have short term, non-committed kind of relationships.
I have to be honest, I don’t quite get it. Why would someone "wake up" at thirty-nine and discover they would have wanted kids and why is it other people's fault that they didn't talk to her about it? If you really want kids you usually think about it before your fertility starts to decline.
Exactly 🤣🤣🤣if all the women were like the one's he describes humanity would be nearing extinction
Adoption is an option.
@@amarants2423 most people would rather have their own kids if they want them
@@snotrohmitabc123 I don't think I have any significant lack of knowledge regarding these matters, my point was, usually people consider having babies at the age when they are fertile. Some people know they want kids from very young age and some make the decision in adulthood. So I don't believe it should be a common occurrence for someone to wake up at nearly 40 and be shocked that they didn't have kids. As it is general knowledge today that you should start trying kids before 35 at the very latest, there's really no blaming someone else if you did not think about it before late 30s.
@@sonias9722 There are females who usually consider having babies knowing the biological clock. Those are the smart, fortunate ones with a plan as you said. They know because they are healthy individuals who were likely raised from a healthy functional family with a good father leading it. I'm from the camp that honestly did not know this information. I learned it all 10 months ago from books by myself. I was not raised with this knowledge. Came from a broken home, uneducated parents and I spent years hating family and scared of marriage. I did the work, matured and now I'm here 10+ years later. JP's message helps people like me wake up when you are not fortunate enough to have people in life like him to do you that favour at the right time. There are more women 35+ who don't know this knowledge like me and need to hear it.
I'm 34. Still career focused and no interest in family nd kids. I travel a lot and live my life. Woudn't wanna change it.
@Zen Diab woah... 🤯 how do you know? Are you a psychic? 🥴
Hello Lea, how are you doing!
Thank God I realized my fulfillment was not going to be in my career when I graduated college at 22. When I finally got my degree, I didn’t care at all. I took a week to really think about why it didn’t mean anything to me, and what I actually wanted, and one month later I met who is today my husband. We have an 8 month old son and I’m a stay at home mom. Best decision we ever made 😁.
Basically same story as you! I felt nothing at my graduation. It took me 2 years to realize that I don’t care about having a career and let’s face it, how many have jobs and not careers? Me and my husband are excited to have kids, but we’re waiting till we’re a bit more financially stable :) I’m glad you’re happy being a stay at home mom. I live in one of the most liberal states in the country and I’ll def be judged for not having a “career”
@@kafka494 thank you and good luck to you and your husband!
How did you meet him ?:)
@@lexieneil9055 believe it or not we actually met on okcupid back in 2014. I think that’s before online dating got tindered and people still put effort into profiles lol. We know four other married couples who met on the website too.
I feel like this is me now. Almost graduating, no Idea what to do after that. I don't think any career is fulfilling for me
Sometimes You cannot force it
If you don't have someone to get married to, to have kids with, you learn to enjoy the life you have, not what you don't have.
Life is a present (now) before being hopeful for future
Just my 2%
Shalom 🥂
Yes!!! Exactly my thoughts and situation!!!!
You mean women can't find a suitable partner? What a joke
This is the best comment yet ❤❤❤
I’ve seen the boredom and emptiness in so many women in my life that were stay at home mothers and had no social life. It was maybe fulfilling also at the beggining but by the time their children became independent, they started to feel like they have no purpose in life anymore and that was a bitter discovery. Balance is key.
In addition, I don’t like hearing a topic like this discussed from a male’s point of view. It’s unfair for all women who actually experienced being robbed of motherhood or the opportunity to work for whatever reason .
This is not a male's point of view, he is a scientist.
@@Rainvideos. he's not a scientist, he's a psychologist, and he's religious and has an agenda. it is very much a male pov.
@@freegameskidsteens Even a psychologist depends on data to share his knowledge, he is a knowledgeable man and you really need to listen to him more and more so you can understand that this man has nothing to do with any agenda...
@@freegameskidsteens psychology is a science. And the fact remains, your career will not make you more attractive to men. That wealthy guy will choose the 19 year old that works at McDonald's because she is nicer to him. You at the age of 35 will not choose the 19 man who works at McDonald's.
@@daisukegori2112 Its a soft science that's actually regarded as a psuedoscience by many real scientists lmao. So what if a woman's career doesnt make her attractive to males? That's not why we get careers, hun. Believe it or not, women's lives don't revolve around males; especially not intelligent women who have their own. And no, wealthy men are not choosing 19 year olds to marry lmao.
Some women just don’t want to be mothers, women like me. I’m not going to become a mother just because authority figures say I should. I love my freedom and my business that I worked hard to build. I’m not giving it up for anything or anyone.
That’s all good and well but don’t say you weren’t warned when you’re 45 and single. The same goes for men. Men who choose careers over kids are equally as depressed and lonely once they hit 40.
Interesting video. Female self-identity and fulfillment, or even human self-identity and fulfillment is what one makes of it, really. We make career and/or wife & motherhood roles bigger deals than they are. Feminism made having a career a big deal in reaction to being a housewife, rightly so at first. I am a woman whose marriage AND career fell apart, so now what? (Marriage due to ex's addiction issues, career due to covid.) I am 41, divorced and without a career. And yet, I am not depressed or unfulfilled at all. I derive a lot of meaning from life beyond the roles and identities. I like to learn new things and want to travel more.
A woman can derive a lot of joy from being a SAHM, if that is what she chooses and wants wholeheartedly. (And she has the economic support to do so.) I don't judge or disrespect that choice to personal fulfillment. I feel the same about a woman who loves her work. I know I loved mine.
Many get so caught up in the scripts and what we SHOULD do, rather than what we really want to do. Many of us also have no idea what we really want until we journey to it either. In my case, the script has been flipped a few times and I had to keep adjusting and reframing. I wanted kids in my 30s, but thankfully that didn't pan out for me considering who I was married to. I also have no regrets about not having them. Life is what you make of the cards you are dealt. Meaning and fulfillment come from unexpected places if we let them.
Totally agree with u
Love your comment! Very well put❤️
Fully with you, but I think, the question is, where do you find orientation for what is important in life?
@@monikaseidenberg5403 Orientation as in a plan? A guide?
@@mariezenaida as: how do I know, what my values are? In a certain sense guidance or coaching. Parents can be such guidance, but there are parents who don't reflect on their values and pass that exact phenomenon on their children: values without reflection, values for others from others instead of my values, my inner believes, that give me strength and support.
I can't imagine losing job ..I am a mother I love my kid dearly.. but my career empowers me to have basic human dignity and rights without which nobody will respect you..
Eeww elitist capitalist rude person
You honestly believe people won’t respect you if you don’t have a career? You need to surround yourself with better people if they are going to treat you that way
I'm not a big Jordan Peterson fan, but I feel like this is one of his more salient, sensical moments.
I feel the same way as the woman in the story from 1:08 - 1:22 when she expresses that she didn't feel like the option was given to her.
Looking back I don't think anyone had expressed the concept that there were expansive realm of possibilities other than the standard of getting married, having kids and working.
Im happy now as a married father of four, but I suspect there was a lot more luck involved in getting to my position of happiness than anyone else in my position would care to admit.
I wish I was given options and I work hard to make my kids realise that they don't have to get married, have kids, etc OR they can- BUT IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT.
I suppose Jordan is making a point here in favour of 'knowing thy self', by promoting deep consideration of the possibilities before you regret having made, or failed to make, an important life decision.
You are a woman and a father huh? I guess that makes you a gender bender, you should take Peterson's advice hack of your manparts or stop pretending to be who you are not ;)
@@penisher1450 Penisher if you're trying to be funny, then that's ok.
If you honestly think I said I was a woman, then you need read more carefully. I wrote "I feel the same way as the woman"
I will take some responsibility for the misunderstanding due to the "having children" part of my comment, that might have obfuscated things.
@@BMTroubleU Oh you are a man that feels like a woman, got it ;)
No one told me anything about how I would feel as I got older. No one ever encouraged me to have children and stay home to raise them. There was always this conflict in me concerning what I was hearing from my parents, grandparents and the society around me. The biggest revelation to my astonishment was how badly I wanted to stay home and raise my daughter. I couldn't believe how strong my feelings were to do that. No one understood, especially my husband. The thought of being the sole provider scared him to death even though I was willing to cut back any way possible. In another video JP explained what happened to me. Having a baby literally changes a woman into a new person. And I believe this new person was who I was meant to be! I think the same thing happens with men. They literally change when they have a wife and family to provide for and to protect. This has been my experience. I'm 65 and I worked for a construction company for 30 years with mostly men. I'm an example of discovering the truth too late for myself, but I pray someone young reading this will at least consider my perspective when making decisions that last a lifetime.
@@penisher1450 you cheeky devil- misunderstanding me for comedic effect. You really are internet funny.
Almost all emotions permeate human class, culture and gender. many even through to other species of animals.
"We all bleed the same colour" - Madonna